26 – Advice

[music] Welcome to Improv, beat by beat. I'm Curtis Rutherford. I interviewed a whole bunch of different improvisers and then edited together chunks of those interviews to investigate different aspects of Improv, one piece at a time. This is episode 26, advice. [music] As with the cliches and gaps and best notes episodes, I asked nearly everyone I interviewed the same question near the end of our interviews. What advice would you give someone in his or her first year of Improv? As you'd expect, there are things that almost everyone agrees on and then there are parts everyone disagreed on. When I asked for advice for brand new improvisers, improvisers in their first year of Improv, there was one piece of advice that came up more than almost any other. My gut answer was like, see lots of shows. I guess see a lot of Improv? See as much as possible without burning out. I think that that's one of the best ways to understand it and whether to know if you want to keep doing it. I would tell people to see a lot of Improv, do a lot of Improv obviously, but see a lot of Improv. Watch a lot. Watch a lot right now. You'll probably remember a lot that you see right now. Go see good stuff, feed yourself good stuff. 60% of learning Improv at first is watching it. There's things you can learn from watching Improv that you just can't learn from classes. Things that people say will describe. Suddenly you'll get it just by seeing an action. I was going to shows two or three times a week, at least going to see Asquat and Harold Knight every single week. Watch a ton of shows with a critical eye. Don't necessarily just let yourself enjoy them. Because you learn so much, even from shows that are not great. Being critical in that way is helpful to your own brain. Seeing a lot of Improv will tell you, are there not at something that's for you? Do it a lot. Watch it a lot. See shows! That was Maritza Montanhas, Liz Nooth, Chris Scott, Morgan Phillips, Will Hines, Build a Puro, Achilles Stem et alaki, Ashley Ward and Ray Cordova. Ashley Ward touched on critically watching shows. Some people bring notebooks with them to shows, or take down notes after. But even if you don't do that, have some fun not only picking apart shows with your friends, but also just enjoying great shows and talking about what you are impressed by. Watch Improv, watch it out of love, but also watch it analytically. What moves would you have made on that game? What second beats would you have brought back? How would you have initiated a second beat for that scene? How would you have justified that behavior? Here's Sebastian Cannelli with a bit more on actively watching shows. Go see shows! Actively watch shows. Don't passively watch shows like how what I said before about like really focusing, paying attention, seeing why they got a laugh, seeing what I'm trying to label games, trying to figure out what moves that they're making in the scene are. What you said about you were not trying to be an audience member, so you're not watching it like an audience member. I feel like is exact that. Yeah, it's honestly amazing that Harold Knight is the night that gets a lot of laughs, because it should be the night that gets no laughs. But I don't understand. It should be an entire audience of people with their arms folded, just nodding like to a 1950s jazz poetry type thing. 100%. I've thought about this. It's puzzling to me why it gets so many laughs. I guess because they recognize all there, it's more recognition laughs that they're doing good jobs, that stuff. But I want to be watching learning, and I think that more people should be doing that. And also I think at a certain level you do that. You know, if you're like, and the lower levels obviously things are like amazing to you. Right? So it makes sense why you're going nuts. That was Sebastian. A piece of advice that came up an astounding number of times was reps. It's hard to overstate how important this is. For some reason we often trick ourselves into thinking that we're magically going to become good at improv, just because we're funny smart people. But like anything else, it takes reps. Practice a lot. If you want to be great at it, you're going to just have to put in a ton of work and practice. Do it as much as you can without ruining your life. I was like this, you know, that meant every night. I loved it. It was awesome. For other people who have, you know, jobs and responsibilities and families, maybe that's only two or three times a week, or maybe even just once a week. But do it as much as you can. If you want to get good at it, it just reps. People treat improv a lot of the time like it is just like, who's doing the biggest like home run? Who's doing the like biggest swings? But it really is, it's like batting average. Treat it like work for a while so that it gets better. If it's a long-term goal of yours, it's okay to just be gritty and work hard. For like a year or two, because it'll, if you get a whole lot better, it'll feel so much better when you come out the other end. If you're in a class, also practice once a week outside of that class. If you're not in a class, practice once or twice a week. It's really rewarding to find a group that you play with all the time. And you can get really good as a group. But a good test of yourself as you're doing more improv is, can I do this as people I don't know? Doing jams, doing as many groups as you have time for. Don't try to get good at everything. Pick a few things to get good at and concentrate on those things. We had a discussion and somebody asked, true, I'll name it up. I was like, well, what are you thinking? I know what a bad scene looks like and I know what a good scene looks like. But I don't necessarily know how to get my set. Like I know the rules, but I don't necessarily know what I'm in the scene, how to get myself to a good scene. And it's like, well, at that point, it's muscle memory. It's you trying to chase what the good scenes you remember doing felt like. And keep trying to recreate that feeling. Oh, that one funny scene that I had with Rachel, it felt like I was making big choices swinging from the hip. So that's what I'm going to try to replicate that feeling of every time I step out. Less thinking about I'm trying to develop certain skill sets. Or I'm trying to get good at certain things. And more like, I'm trying to make it feel really natural to do the scenes that I've enjoyed doing. If it is something that you want to get good at, it's going to just take so many reps and so much of your time. That I think that weren't some thoughts just about like practicing like anything else. That was Joey Price, Patrick Nooth, Kevin Mulaney, Lily Doe, Morgan Phillips, Nicole Dressbell, and Liz Nooth. Kevin Mulaney talked about focusing on just a few actionable things. Defining goals that make improv manageable. Those are the fundamentals, the bread and butter of yes and who, what, where, and active listening. When Nicole talks about getting to a good scene through muscle memory, that's the goal of practice and of exercises. So you feel what a good scene is like and you can return to it more easily. And the things we work on most in exercises, fundamentals. With more on the importance of these foundational things, here's Will Hines and Logan Salis. I guess focus on the fundamentals, all the fancier rules that you're hearing and the edge cases don't matter as much as, like say yes, say why, you know, specifics. Whatever you know what the fundamentals are, like just do that. Be aware that there are fundamentals and do them like every sport has fundamentals. Don't get fancy. Don't try to get fancy, like just stick to the fundamentals. I think ultimately what you've, when you're early on, I think you should just focus on listening, listening and your who-what-where. First, your improviser, that's all you need to do. Just listen and figure out what your who-what-where is. Figure those things out as a first-year improviser, work on that. That's all I really want them to really be working. Where are we? What are we doing? Listen to what's being said to you. That's enough. Once you've figured that out, you're great. And I'd say like year two, that too. Because that's, you know, like your focus so hard on game is just like, okay, well why don't you first figure out what's happening in the scene? It's hard because the pressure is there. It's very real. That was Will Hines and Logan Salis. You get it. Reps are important. They might be the most important thing. Now, unless you're one of those lucky few people who has a consistent team from the very beginning of your improv career, chances are that practice groups are where you're going to get most of your reps. Now, if improv is just a fun thing to do once a week, that's great. But if you're listening to this, it's likely that you're more serious about improv and you want to get good. If you do, you have to treat this with some degree of discipline. Here's Sebastian Cannelli. Get a practice group, form monthly dues. So everyone shows up, do monthly dues. That's going to make the team more consistent. And when the team's more consistent, you could work together as a group better. Everyone will show up if they know they're losing 10 bucks. It's amazing how that money shit works like that. Everyone should just do fucking monthly dues, no matter what. If you want to make this a career, I don't know what a professional improviser is, but I would say like being on a team, that's like being a professional improviser, all of a sudden, people are paying to see you. If you want to be that actor professional, show up on time to practice. You can't be fun, you can't be like, I'm going to be funnier today, but you can be on time. And that's like the easiest thing to do, just be an adult about it. And I am literally the worst person. And I only know all this stuff because I fucked up so much along the way. So like all these little things are important to me because I was the person making all these mistakes. I don't know if I'm late to class, coming up high to class, like I wasn't getting anything out of that shit. But if you are trying to be a professional comedian, you need to be a professional. Yeah. Which is all those things. Yeah, show up sober, show up on time, like listen to all the things that you're given. Is it a crazy show up sober? You don't know how many times I've ever seen it. like coach a group and they'd be like we just want to have for drinks. Yeah. Really? All right. I mean it's Tuesday at 6.30. I guess you need to do drinks. Yeah. Honestly if a sloppy drug loving fucking asshole like me from Staten Island could figure that shit out. Literally anyone could do it. It's just about if you want to do it. That was Sebastian Cannelli. Forming practice groups can be daunting when you're starting out and maybe you don't know many people. So how do you ask people to practice with you and whom should you even ask? Here's a bunch of improvisers. Find a practice group and just have fun with it. Practice. Get in the practice group whatever it takes if they fall apart from another one. If there's people in your classes that you enjoyed playing with and you felt comfort playing with them or if you looked up to the way that they played in a way that wasn't oh I'm worshipping you like but in a way like oh I could feel like I could learn from a lot of this or we would play well. I would just reach out and be like hey any interest in being on a team or like don't be fearful about asking people who you want to work with to work with you. If you feel like you want to start a practice group and you maybe don't want to involve a certain person or you want to reach out to somebody you've never spoken to before. You just kind of have like an admiration for. I would say just do it. Just give it give it a chance and it might not work out but it also might and it might be really great because at that time I think it's important to have a particularly a supportive group that you feel safe and comfortable with to just like work with regularly. We are a community of people not asking other people to do things and then wondering why no one's asking us to do something. So I'd be choosy with who you work with really only work with people you think are hilarious and also think to yourself is this person hilarious and I don't realize it because they don't look and act just like me. So round yourself with like hilarious people that can challenge your point of view and have different perspectives from you. Play with people that you like to play with and get each other's backs. Find people you feel comfortable around to do it. I think that there is some sort of a benefit to being able to play with different people but you need to feel like at least rooted in some way and we're like you need to feel like you can take risks and if you don't feel that way then it's I don't know how helpful practice is going to be. A practice group full of people who are supportive and who you are excited to work with. Not that you have to be in love with everybody who you're working with because that's not always the way it works but I do think it's important to have a safe practice group. I guess this is almost the opposite of that but just say yes to all the things until you get to a point where you have the opportunity to start saying no but again still if someone doesn't make you laugh. Good at them. Yeah. That was Chris Scott Kevin Heinz Kelsey Bailey Liz North Bethapel Molly Thomas and Bill DiPiero. Being picky came up often in the advice. As Beth said in the beginning definitely say yes to everything but eventually you want to start thinking about the people you want to be working with. As you get better not all practices are equal. You want to work more and more specific skills and for that play with people that have a level of competence that's similar to your own. On that here's Alex Dixon Chris Scott and Molly Thomas. I think a lot of people do a bunch of practice groups and stuff like that and they don't necessarily love the groups that they're in. I would say like be picky about the people you do improv with. There is certainly a part of improv that is just like support and trust whoever you're on stage with but I also think like especially if you're at the level of like 401 or advanced study you're allowed to be like I just want to do two prob with this person I love improvising with them or I love the way they do this thing I would love to do improv that way like they inspire you or whatever and it's also expensive people pay a lot for rooms and stuff so if you don't like feel like you leave your practice group and you're like oh that was cool or that was really hard but fun or I had a good time or whatever then like pick a different practice group it doesn't have to be a group of 10 people you can. I remember when I like first met Molly Thomas in our advanced my first advanced study Harold we just started doing practice groups the two of us and I learned so much because Molly was so much better at game than I was but also she is an actor too and so we did like a lot of sort of sad scenes but I loved it and I felt I actually like left a practice group to just do stuff with her because I didn't want to pay for both and I felt a little bit bad about it but it was like because I was like oh I should be in an eight person practice room and I should be doing Harold's but I think all those sheds were like no you should be doing something that you think is fun where you're still getting better and I've said that to people before where I'm like you don't have to be you know to come here every week if you're like don't like this group so yeah I think that's my advice is be picky about who you perform with or who you practice with because it's expensive and it's supposed to be fun and given the size of the used to be community at this point you can absolutely find if you need an eight person Harold group right you can find seven people out of the thousand two thousand however many yeah and it will make you better to love and respect and maybe even be intimidated by the people that you're practicing with if you feel like if you're in a practice group and you're like constantly like oh I'll fix the scene or like let me help them clarify then you're in the wrong practice group it's building weird muscles that you're not gonna need when you're actually on the the right team that's right yeah I remember an interview with Chris Rock when he was like working on bringing the pain which like became like that was Chris Rock's return to stand-up essentials which what made him the stand-up for a long time and he talked about how he spent eight months just only listening to stand-up that he loved and only talking to people that he found hilarious oh wow like he was literally literally said if you weren't funny just get the fuck out like he did not want to talk to you and wow I feel that sometimes of oh when I'm hanging out with the people who are very funny and enjoy it and I'm on teams with every with that kind of thing yeah it does fuel you in a different way yeah you're then constantly on yeah I think because if you're ever doing something that's creative you want to constantly especially if you're literally doing the creative thing in that moment you're always want to be inspired and so yeah if you're yeah if he's working on his new stand-up set and he's like I need inspiration yeah you should hang out with people that you think are funnier than you or at least can play ball with you that's really cool I like that I like to think about him getting a phone call and just being like not talking to you for 18 yep not dealing with my account now dude is not funny a year three when you hit up you know you're right year three of advice if you hit a hit a plateau your three do two prof find a way to do two prof even if it's a little expensive or get into another group and do it with a coach so there's four of you or whatever you rotate out I don't think anything makes someone at that like three-year slump where you are overthinking everything and maybe bailing on ideas or has sitting in the back line of being in a two-prob and just having to be present for 15 minutes or someone was that when you and Nicole started doing the breakup or is that it was probably about it was probably a little three or four or five three yeah there's also something confidence wise of knowing oh I just me and one other person can do it yeah yeah I think that opens you up yeah I feel like oh if the two of us can do it when I have seven other people yeah I should have no problem I think seven other people's harder sure there's too many there's always too many voices and so you and you do end up having to stifle your own voice because you're one-eighth of a show so it's harder if you're making if you are a more directorial person I'm a more of a nudge and I find like in heralds and things that I'm doing less scenes because I'm more like more support than things in second and third beats because yeah I mean same like it wasn't until sluth it with sluth I pretty much like I force not force myself but I was like you know what I've been that person on my last like three or four teams I'm just gonna fucking first scene yeah I was kind of too aggressively like first scene first beat for most of our shows uh this this last audition round if I think I did okay at I purposely the hub always been was first suggestion I'm initiating fifth suggestion I'm receiving I was like I'm stepping right away on both those not everything come always that was always fourth and and it doesn't like for I'm very much the like I just want to have it done yeah I want to just do it do my scene and now I can just watch these other scenes and whatever yeah once you feel like you know enough of what you're doing then make yourself a caretaker for the other people you're on stage with which I think I learned doing jams was if you're a jam leader then it's your job to help make every scene successful which doesn't mean you have to be in the scene or do a walk on or anything but you're you're kind of policing the jam to make sure everybody's being cool with everybody else and to help support people's moves yeah so like once you're able to do that I'd say do that unless you're the kind of kind of personality who is too much of a caretaker and then maybe take up more space and don't worry about other people as much okay so then somebody in their third year of improv your team is everything so make sure that you're a trustworthy teammate and you're getting each other's backs and that uh you trust the people unlike the people you're playing with and I guess assume that you do so it's not staring at everybody going do I really trust you right but just like yeah these people are good nature and I like playing with them and so how would you push somebody to be more of a supportive trusting teammate or is it one of those things where it's just like by keeping that in mind you are people naturally kind of push more in that direction hmm I guess really observing each other within a scene and try to try to understand what your teammates are getting at and play that. So don't worry. So It's third year, you know what you're doing. You're not as panicked when you're on stage about like, what am I gonna say? So great. Then focus on what the other person is doing and what they want and help them do that. Is that kind of like, I'd love to put Luke Field in a horror film or in a, haven't been a metal music critic. - Right, it's that metal level of communication where it's, I both know what you're saying as a character as an, and I know the improviser underneath what you're getting at and I can help you get there. - Right. - Which is easy to miss. - Right, right. Yeah, there's so much focus and I had it. There's so much focus coming up of like, what, like I don't know what I'm doing or I think I know what I'm doing. How do I stack up against these other people or in an audition like I wanna get on a team and it truly is you're doing it as a group or you're not doing it at all. Like you might be really good but if you're not playing as a teammate then like, you know. - Yeah. - Fuck you. Or you might be a great teammate but if you're not like making, taking big swings sometimes then you're not doing everything you can do. - Right. - So if you're naturally a very supportive player and like great and jump, great at jumping into a group stuff, sometimes you gotta play the solo too and let yourself do that. - That was Alex Dixon, Chris Scott and Molly Thomas. Now all this practice will do little good if you're not actually putting any of it into action. It's very different to hear what a coach laughs at and what an audience laughs at. But don't take my word for it. Here's another bunch of improvisers. - Find people you like and do shows with them. - Try to do shows and do tons of shows and shit the bad. - Do shows in the basement of Triple Crown. - Play and as many underground spaces as you can. - Do shows like don't just do practice groups. - Those are my best memories of doing all the theater underground. I mean some really fun stuff at Triple Crown under St. Mark's, be underground and make mistakes. - Find a team, do it with an indie team so that like you're starting to work on like finding strengths in each other. - The show is the reward for the work. Set up a monthly show somewhere. Ask teams to be on that show. They'll ask you to be on their show. That's like how it works kind of or like find a stage that you can perform at and continue like learning from multiple sources. - If you have a dumb idea, try to do it. Don't just do a practice group with your class. Think of other people that you're in other classes with and just try and start to do shows for fun or to learn different forms and to do those. Explore what the other venues are. Like go to kaleidoscope, sign up for a kaleidoscope. Take a little bit of the nerves away the more venues you go to and like the more shows that you do. - That's such a part of what we do as improvisers is having an audience like, like we can't be doing this in a vacuum and needs to be like to bring it back to the basketball metaphor. It's as if all you did was just shoot in the gym and then you never actually played the game. - More doing shows, more rewarding yourself for the work you do in the practice groups. - That was Kelsey Bailey, Sebastian Cannelli, Patrick Nooth, Joey Price, Jessica Morgan, Achilles Stem et al. And Jesse Lee. Kelsey Bailey mentioned how shows slowly erode that inherent fear of improv. Shows can be scary, improv is scary. But the best way to get over it is to just do it. With more on that, here is John Timothy. - Do as many shows as you can. There's no replacement for it. You will never be playing like you have the capability to play if you're afraid to be on stage, right? And the faster you can, the faster you can get over that and the faster you can get comfortable doing just shows like, like I remember Becky Drys' tale. - They're talking about advice. Becky Drys' tale once told me that the only, she only got good when she stopped caring, I guess, which I don't, I hope that's not as nihilistic as it sounds. But like that you have to kind of get over every show being special and every show being like a test of yourself worth. Or like if I'm at bad at this show, then that proves I'm bad at comedy or I'm a bad at improv. 'Cause you'll never be great. Like you might go out there and not make mistakes. You will never be playing in the way that will make you great if that's kind of where you're playing from, you know? - It is a specific way of not caring of like, I don't care that they might not like me or love me. I can still go out and care what they're giving me without like having it affect myself as damn. - Yes, absolutely, right? Like there's damage mitigation versus like, you know, there's the way you have to play of giving people things and if they don't pick them up, well, you know, they sure they should have, but and that might make you feel silly, but you are better off and the scene is better off for you having done that as opposed to, I don't know, nannying people during the scene or like, you know, doing whatever. And I think the second thing and probably the hardest thing is to get a group of people who you can rehearse with every week and it's the most important thing in your week. I think it's not an accident that I formed a group out of my 201 or all of us ended up on house team someplace, I believe, and like four or five of us ended up on teams in the sketch of Improvitt UCB, like it was a lot and it was just because on Mondays it was when we rehearsed and it wasn't a question of all, well, I've got this like, no, but that's when we rehearsed it, it's not like a thing. And so you just catapult so far past your like classmates because you're doing literally twice as much as them and then on terms of shows, you're doing, you know, maybe at a certain point you're doing two or three extra shows a week, tripling quadrupling, quintupling the amount of shows versus people who started at the exact same time as you and they're only taking classes. - That was John Timothy. Ultimately, fear is about the fear of being bad. Fear is the mind killer. What if all of these people see me bomb on stage? I'll spoil the ending for you, they will. You will inevitably fail. You will be bad, you will be bad many, many times and you will be bad in front of groups of people. Some of whom will respect you and love you. Will they still respect you and love you after the show? - Yes. - You are going to be bad. - You aren't good. (laughing) - Is this bad? - It's gonna suck. You're gonna have a ton of bad shows. - Even if you're funny, you're gonna do bad scenes. - You're gonna do a lot of bad scenes, so don't worry about it. - You're gonna have stretches where you're terrible or you feel like you've never done a good scene. - Be okay with it. Like you're gonna be, Ian Robertson a talk on game, I think, the Imprafford Humans podcast. And one of the things he talked about is people complaining about being in their head. He's like, "You should be in your head." It's hard. And I think that's sort of what I would want to say. It's like, "If you're in your head, think you don't want to be." - Yeah. - But don't be mad at yourself for being here. You're not gonna be able to bowl yourself out of your head. Just keep doing it. - Just really, really, really be willing to fail and don't beat yourself up over it. - Like I feel like sometimes you get students that are funny and they know they're funny and they've been funny their whole lives and then they do bad scenes because everybody does bad scenes when you first start. They get almost panicky and it's like, "Well, you need to fucking let go of that because you're gonna do bad scenes." - You won't actually be good for a while. So don't worry about it. Just try to learn the rules and do those. And then at some point you'll just be good, but you're not yet. - Be willing to fail because you're trying instead of just trying to be funny and not really trying to do the work. That was Joey Price, Bethapel, Sebastian Cannelli, Patrick Nothe, Kevin Hines and James Dwyer. Being funny is one of those ideas about improv that we need sort of washed out of us early on. Not that we shouldn't be funny, but we think the way to be funny is to tell jokes and improv instead shows us that it's about characters. It's about situations. There are of course some other preconceptions that we all bring into improv that we all need to work on. Constantly. Here is Jessica and Kelsey. - Ooh, his first year of improv, let women speak. Her first year of improv, speak and don't let men speak over you. - Yeah, I firmly believe that. And honestly, this may be a bit much, but shut 'em down. If they're talking over you, just be very clear and say I was initiating in notes or whenever, or if it's an option in that moment, just speak. Make sure that you are, if you are initiating a scene, initiate, do not let him take it. And also, yeah, for him, just listen. Just be a better listener. - I, a couple of weeks ago, I saw a Lloyd team do a pattern game and it was 50/50 gender wise. The men spoke for 80% of it. And that's, if I were coaching, I wouldn't know where to put the blame. - Like, and I don't know that it needs a blame, but it is that like-- - Observe that this is happening. - Yes. - Be aware that this is happening and we'll change it. It's no, no one needs to be mad, but let's just be aware that for 80% of the time the guys were talking. And that could be that those four guys, the way they manifest anxiety is by talking and the way that those four girls manifest anxiety is by being quiet. It doesn't mean anything about anything, but just be aware of how that looks to students out there and to your audience and how that feels for you. - Yeah, that's my number one piece of advice for influencers in the first year. - Don't use slurs. (laughs) - Yeah. - Don't use slurs if you're on stage. That's my biggest thing. - Yeah, even we have this like don't think mentality. It feels like, oh, just doing this thing and it's-- - Yeah, don't think, but also think a little bit. - Yeah, yeah. - Think am I gonna be hurting or anyone on stage with me or in the audience? - Yeah. - Yeah, 'cause even like, especially now, I feel like just with the political climate, like you have to be a little bit PC. - Yes. - Don't play a character. because it called for it, it was in the moment, like maybe you shouldn't have to be playing someone in a stereotypical way or like, maybe that didn't need to be introduced, that wasn't necessarily the weird thing. I don't know. - No. - I think just having a little bit of a level head. - Yeah. - Right now. You gotta think about other people a little bit. - It is a mistake I have made on Lloyd Knight. It was in a scene with a group game with a Proozie and it was like, I don't know, it was like something like we were like stereotypical like douchebags watching someone swing. And so I was like, oh, what does a douchebag do? Oh, they call someone gay. And then I did it and it was like, oh yeah, that was wrong. And I knew it certainly was wrong, but it was like I should have known way before. And then afterwards a Proozie was like, dude, you know, that was like, yeah, I felt it too. - Yeah, I mean sometimes you just have to learn the hard way, but yeah, err on the side of caution. - And there's also the feeling of kind of like, oh, I'll get away with it either because I don't seem like someone who's using it out of anger or hatred or anything like that. It really doesn't matter. It's my character. - Yeah, no it's still. - I think that's like something, yeah. You're still a person, you know, you're still a person. So that would be my biggest thing. - Yeah. - That applies to anyone in their first year, second year, third year, fourth year, Lloyd team, Harold team, weekend team. - That was Jessica Morgan and Kelsey Bailey. By the way, that Lloyd show I mentioned was six years ago and I still feel pretty terrible about it. Rightly, I'm an idiot. Don't do that, right? We can only agree on that. That I'm an idiot, fantastic. Anyway, I also asked about advice for improvisers in their later years. - For the first years and two practice groups, starting from like 201 or 3a once, I really like delved into it. My advice would be like, don't do that. Like my advice would be like, in order for you to be a good improviser, you need to have life experiences beyond just improv. - Do a few other things to supplement the improv you're doing? - There is that very true thing of the more life experience you have, the more interesting your improv will be. So doing non-improved things. Is it really a good idea to make your improv better? - If we're trying to do real life on stage, you better go get a life. (laughing) Because you cannot just do improv. You gotta keep doing real life on stage. - Yeah, I would say supplement it with other things that you like, whether it be like movies or maybe you like to go see certain kinds of performances. I don't know, other things, reading other books, making sure that you have a foot outside of it in other things that make you happy and then can also supplement your work that you do on stage. I think that keeps you out of your head a little bit. - Just live your life and learn new things and like everything that you give yourself, it's not improv, ends up feeding into improv. When I have days, when I don't have work and I'm at home just like replying to email scheduling practices, thinking about improv, and I have to do a show that night, it's bad 'cause I have no specifics to draw from. But if I've just watched an interesting movie, read an interesting book or like worked a temp job and spoke to a bunch of random people, then specifics feel easy because like I lived a person's life. - Try to also absorb different types of art. - My ratio is 20% watching improv, 20% reading about improv, 60% doing improv, but that should take up half of your life. Going to a lot of museums and watching a lot of movies and seeing the types of movies I would see would be weird, like French movies and like, oh this will be here for a week. And then, you know, I remember seeing one that was like, Guy-shaped, it was a French movie and a Guy-shaped as Mustache and his whole life changed. Like his wife didn't recognize it. It was a weird kind of like psychological thriller, but I was like, oh, this is weird. But it was also a thing that was like, oh, this isn't just an improv show, I'm seeing other things that are affecting me personally, you know. - I definitely do try to read a lot outside, both fiction and nonfiction outside of comedy and to take in art forms outside of comedy and to do art outside of comedy. - I've been recently getting back into like musical theater, which is silly, but I've just like been appreciating listening to different composers and like different, yeah, just different shows all the way through and sort of appreciating this skill set that I don't really have. It's just a totally different kind of storytelling, whatever does that for you, I guess. - People who are really into it tend to improvise from other improv scenes versus improvising from, oh, I actually experienced this, try to resemble a real person, behave like real people on stage. And worry less about like the rules, I think. Like keep working reps, but like your main goal should be to have your behavior match a recognizable person. - I think when you discover improv and you love it, you can start to consume you. And part of that's really exciting and wonderful, but you can't become a snake eating your own tail. Like you have to continue to explore, not only just for ideas, right? Of like, you know, reading about the gentry or whatever we're going to the museum or, you know, interacting with people outside of this community for ideas, it's also about learning how you see yourself in the world and learning what you think about the world and the more that you can continue to grow that part of yourself, the better your improv will be always. - Like I think it's about finding your footing and what you want to do, like what you want to do with this art form, what you want to do in comedy, what you want to do in your light. Like I think it's about like who are you, what do you want? - Start thinking about your voice. That's where you want to start thinking about like, what's funny to you, what choices do you make that you like? How can you keep encouraging yourself in that direction? - Start thinking about what kind of improv you like and want to do and it doesn't start with what you've seen but it does not have to be what you've seen. There's other stuff being done. - That was Achilles Stammadalockie, Liz Nooth Morgan Phillips, Lydia Hensler, Lily Dew, Jenny St. Angelo, Jesse Lee, Chris Scott and Nicole Dressbell. So there you have it. Do other things, be a real person and start thinking about what kind of improv you want to do. If you're looking at other art and living a full life, those things will influence and texture your improv in so many fun ways and they'll keep you from being just like everyone else. - Oh, and here's a note from Alejandro. - The movie that Achilles mentioned is La Moustache and it's super weird and funny and interesting. Good movie for improvisers to watch. It's a great example of a world game. - Okay, great Alejandro, thank you. That's enough about the movie. Now you've just listened to a massive amount of improv advice and there's a big caveat to all of this, which is that nobody actually knows what the best advice is. We all have different journeys and experiences and it's important to be reminded of that. Precisely because improv can be so abstract and mysterious, we tend to sometimes take advice as gospel, which isn't always the best. Here's Ashley Ward. - For me, a lot of times it's a thing of like celebrating my own mistakes, like saying something and going like, "Hey, this is a crappy note. I know it's crappy." And you know what, but it's the best one I have right now and I gotta trust my gut and tell you anyway. And sort of acknowledging that I don't know everything and I'm not always right and this isn't the way, it's the way. You know, I think like being really honest about that and I try to be real honest about when someone does something that I am like, "Oh, I struggle with that too." Or like, you know, those kinds of things, I think that's, I try to come from, I guess, an empathetic place, you know, of like, yeah, we're all the same. We all are, we're all like just trying our best. Yeah, maybe that's it. (laughs) I just want students to always remember like, we are all the teachers and the performers that you go and watch, we're all you, sometimes a long time ago, sometimes not that long ago. And we all went through the same things and not one of our approaches or paths are identical. They're all very different. And so like, every time you feel wrong, you're just being right for you, you know, you're not wrong, you're right for you. That was Ashley Ward. With more on Breaking Rules, here is Jenny Santangelo. You mentioned whatever percentage of reading about improv. Oh, you read about improv. Oh, baby, you gotta read improvise by McNapier. I think that it works as a perfect complement to UCB style because the UCB manual is a manual, it's rules, it's all rules. And Mix Hall thing is sort of anarchy of improv. And I don't think that you can just have anarchy of improv if you don't understand what the rules are, but if you don't break the rules, you can't succeed. So that's what I really loved about reading the improvise was, and I went and did an intensive with him in Chicago, which was really great. My brain stopped. For me, his book felt like the perfect, and maybe this is just like, oh, I read it at this point and therefore that's the perfect time to read it. But I think I read it at the near the end of my first year of improv. And it's, you've been so indoctrinated with rules and they make sense, but there are also there's so many structures and formulas and you start to like tense up a little bit. Just hearing that kind of like, it's a book of saying, yeah, fucking do it, dude. Like just go, do this, do that. Yes. And there is like, it's not just anarchy, but it is like, hey, it's much more pushing the other direction that we sometimes get pushed. Right. Well, and it also reminded me that like, you know, people joke that like, improv is a cult blah, blah, blah, but there is a sense of religion in it, right? And much like all religions, you're essentially trying to get to the same point, be good to each other, right? Most religions can come down to like be good to each other. And I think with improv, it comes down to, be funny in a way that's easy, right? And for lots of people, that's through a bunch of rules. Let them be funny in a way that's easy. But I think there's lots of methods in, and there's no one path to the enlightenment of comedy. And so that was why I liked and provides so much as it was like, oh, oh, maybe a more Buddhist path in. Or like a more, it just allowed for more options of how to approach the art form as opposed to like the one true way, which made me feel like, oh, I have more agency over this. Of like, I can decide. Like, I like doing it this way, you know, while keeping in mind I love rules. So I'm not going to break through rules that much. But I might change it just a little to make it more, to come to me a little bit easier. That was Jenny Santangelo, and up next is Kevin Hines. Focus on what works. And that's great for backline support. It's great for in your own scenes. Looking back at what you've done personally or what your scene partner is doing, don't focus on like, oh, we haven't labeled where we are. That's broken. I need to fix that. Nope, you're focusing on what didn't work. Focus on what's fun about the scene, and then do things that make that more fun. So like, this is a fun scene. It'd be even more fun if we were in a barber shop. Right. So I'm going to put us in a, and I know where we could be anywhere right now. So I'm going to put us in a barber shop. That's fun instead of like, oh, I need to think of a place to put us. What's a funny place? You might get to the same answer, but you're coming at it from a negative perspective, and it comes across. Definitely comes across in support moves. It definitely comes across a little bit in scenes, and I bet when you're looking back at your scenes, and I am a victim of this still, but you look back at your show, you're like, oh, I did this, I did this. You're never going to forget, you're going to notice those bad moves, but in the long run, you're never going to forget the great stuff. So focus on what you really did that you loved and try to do more of that. Not just to keep doing the same thing, but like, I really loved when I did this move. God, I got to remember that feeling and do that again. Feel that again. Remember doing another monocene where it was a dorm, and I just opened up the door, and I leaned in. It was like freshman year, first day, and I leaned in, I was like, hey, just so you guys know, I'm going to be the guy where's the cowboy hat on this floor, and then I walked out, and that's all I did. And I did that move, partially because I, Eric Teno, I used to do runners and shows. He wasn't on this team at the time, but he's a do runners. This is Ruben Williams, era. And I was like, I think it'd be funny if that's all we know about this guy. Yeah. And it really made me laugh, and then Ben Rogers came on and did the same move, and they were like, somebody else who heard a cowboy hat. And it was delightful, I don't think he, like, none of that's trying to fix anything, it was just, that's fun, I wanted to play with him. Yeah, focus on what works. I love that Kevin talked about what's fun in a scene. Your first couple of years, especially as you learn the rules, you're going to focus on what you shouldn't do, and you're going to try to do it correctly. There were beneficial parts of that, but focusing just on what you can't do too much can be limiting. You're doing improv because it's fun. Find your people, and I know that's become like, so it's almost networking, but the reason that you'll stay is because we'll get attached to people, not to an institution, not to teams, not to the really shiny person who you adore on "Herald Night," but who are the people in your classes that you feel a connection to, and you're excited by, and you want to see every week, and you want to know more about their lives. Because that'll either keep you tethered to the thing, even when you're feeling like you're not sure if you want to do it, which, no matter how much you love it, and probably you might have those phases. And also, if you end up not doing improv anymore, that's still really valuable and lovely. I know people who aren't doing improv anymore, but they met their spouses and like, "That's enough." That's worth a couple thousand. I don't know. I interned, so I don't know. But also, I met my partner in a class before. I met my partner in a class I paid for, so you know what? Worth it. - Right now, your suggestion is, hey, you might date someone? - Yeah. - Okay. - Let's not say date, let's say love, 'cause date sounds petty, but love is like a noble attribute. Would I be okay if I never done improv after that Chanano Niel class, but I did date Chris Scott? I'm worried you're gonna cut this, but I feel like this is what people are listening for. Kinda can't, it's impossible to extricate improv from my eight year relationship, so I don't think I can answer it. - And also, I mean, yet like eight year relationship, but also your people is so much broader than that of-- - No, it's just Chris. - It's just Chris. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true. - I guess icing or just like individual sprinkles. - Right, right. - If you lost one sprinkle, are you gonna notice? I'm having so terrible. - That was Nicole Dresswell, full disclosure, right after recording this Nicole and Chris broke up. I'm kidding. Anyways, celebrate your mistakes, focus on the people you meet. Be good to the people around you, 'cause you're gonna see them a lot. We saved one piece of advice for the end, and it's a pretty big one. Be healthy. Not just because it'll make your improv better. Be healthy because it'll make your whole life better. - Make sure you like doing it. - Yeah. - This should be something that's a little scary, because I think that's part of the fun of it, but it shouldn't be something that you're dreading every week, or that you hate, and if you're feeling that way, don't do it, 'cause it's supposed to be a fun thing. - Right. - Even if you're finding it really challenging, just make sure you're doing it because you like it, and not because it's a program that you see the beginning, middle, and end of. - I think it's important to really weigh that, of like, do I really like this? Is this something that I wanna participate in, or fully commit to? - If you don't think this is fun right now, then don't do it anymore, is that terrible? - No. - I don't say that to be like, stop doing it, but I do think, especially 'cause improv has gotten more traction. I do think there's a lot of people who are like, no, I have to figure this out and get good at it. That mentality is good, if you're currently having fun too. People who write novels are writing novels is hard, but it's not like while they're doing it, they're like, I have to do this 'cause I wanna win a Pulitzer. What do you know what I mean? So I think anything artistic or whatever is something clicking, is something feeling like it's feeding you. If it feels like it's depleting you, then what's the end game? - I was just having a conversation with somebody who does a lot of sketch and used to do a lot of improv. And she was saying to me, I just feel like people in sketch are so x, y, and z, but just basically saying that it was like a better environment for her. And then I've also had people who do sketch where it doesn't feel quite right for them. So I do think these things are important of like, this person spent a lot of time doing improv that she was like, I learned from it, but it makes more of an impact that I'm somewhere else right now. It makes me feel, I'm welcome here, or I feel more at home or nourished creatively or whatever it is. So I think that in that first year, it's important to think about whether or not you want to, you actually want to do this or practice it a lot. - If you're not having fun, then you truly are the asshole. - Please keep doing it, but only if you're like, oh, this feeds a part of me that I didn't know I needed to be fed. - Stop trying to be right. Stop trying to do it right. Stop trying to nail it every time. Like, and that's the hardest one because you want to do well, you want to get it right. And it feels like there is a right. And sometimes there is, but really, the rightest thing you can be is like, true to your instincts and to what you're learning. And taking the things that you've learned and using them. And I think what happens is, if your main goal is to do it correctly, you're not developing your instincts and your sense of what's funny and what's good and what's needed in a scene. And so you're kind of setting yourself back instead of moving yourself forward. - So don't worry about anything that feels out of your control. - I really like to go and long walks through the city and just like see all the people and just sort of remember like, oh, this is like a small, like I am small and this is big and that's really nice. And yeah, to like keep putting things back in perspective of like, okay, hey, like, you had a bad herald. It's okay, right? It's okay. This little girl reading with her mom on the train. That's more important probably, right? Then like your stupid second beat move. - Right. - Like, I'm garbage. Keep going, but only if this was really fun for you. - Yes. - And if you're starting to get angry or jaded, don't do it, take some time off. - It's also okay to take a break. I don't feel like taking a break anymore ever. But I remember feeling burned out on improv while when I was first starting doing it, every once in a while. So it'll still be there when you get back. But if you're having a great time, keep going. - Don't let other more jaded people's like, bitterness bring you down. It only gets to be like all new and exciting for you that one time. So don't doubt it. You're allowed to just love it. You don't need to immediately be given your own show and be writing for SNL your first year, just like improv and also know that those friends that you're gonna meet in like, through one and four, one who also love it and have all the time in the world. Like those are your peers that you're gonna come up with and like soak in that time that you're in. - My mantra for a very long time was you are a student. You came here without a set of skills to a school that teaches a set of skills. Be okay not knowing them and okay learning them and okay being bad at them for a while. As long as you feel you are learning and growing, like you are on the path towards something. Don't stress out so much. Get obsessed with it though. Like have fun. Get a little too into it. Make a lot of friends while you're doing it. - Be social with people in improv. We all know this improv is a place of like nerds and misfits and people who are introverts. And you know, and I think it's easy to fall prey to your own issues and your own fears. Don't think people don't like you. people don't want to hang out if you don't think people don't need to be on a team, don't need to be on a team, that's all in your head. People that you meet when you first start improv are often the people that you end up as a lifelong friend of or at least a teammate of for you know a couple months until your team falls apart but you're usually longer. So those connections that you make at the beginning are important. Generally people that I find that people that start taking improv are really interesting, cool, dynamic people who also often are maybe new to the city or looking for like some sort of different creative outlet for themselves and so a lot of times people in a class are like ready to make a new set of friends and I think you should especially in like 101 and 201 try to capitalize on that because as you know as it gets later advanced study and that you know people start to have their groups established so I think 101 is a great time to meet some new people. Be good to people. Be very kind, be very patient because we're all learning at a different rate and this is a small community. I am experiencing right now this week the benefits of like of being nice to people like oh now they have power and they're offering these things that I can't give myself or skills I can't give myself because I was kind. The more you are in this place it does feel like oh I'm in this cloud now. This is the way I like to refer to it is like you have your friends in here and then you have your Gen Pop friends, your general Pop friends. They're like don't care about comedy or are very casual fans. Yeah and I think of them as civilians. Yeah they are yeah they totally are and your bits just kill because you're like you're just you hone it so much and oh either kill or they're like relax like stop it. Come on. Come on. Come on. You don't need to be constantly doing a bit every single time we're trying to hang out and just like be in a bar. Yeah I think that's my biggest piece of advice is start living. You need to start treating it as what it really should be as an exercise for your brain and your ability to emote or present the self. Like use it as that that's what it is and that's all it should be. Stop adding things to it just because everyone thinks that's it doesn't mean that it is that. Who are you outside of the improv community and I think that's where a lot of people suffer? You need to take care of yourself. Like I think there's a starving artist narrative that is like very celebrated and I think sometimes you have to stretch yourself a little thin to like reach a goal but you also need to take care of yourself so that you can enjoy this because I was like oh I have no money I'm like barely scraping by but I'm like doing it and I was like I'm fucking miserable and I'm not funny and I'm not my life it has like Swiss cheese holes in it. Yeah. It was like no take care of yourself like figure out how to live a life so that you can come to improv the most full like with the most of life to put into it. Go do a jam. Go do something that feels like doing the art form that you love for the sake of it and not because it's like a responsibility. Trust that whatever you're bringing to improv is good. I think with teaching new students I've occasionally heard concerns about like I'm not an actor and I'm not coming into this with the same background as other people. What I have said and what I want to like keep emphasizing is like that's good. Not just like that's okay. Everyone has whatever they're coming from and also in terms of like what work you do and how much time you have to commit to it. I've been on teams of people who like don't have time for improv outside of like going to practice and going to shows because they have like a real career that is entirely separate from entertainment anyway and they're great to be on teams with. Assume that like that that is what you're bringing is good. Do the things which seem doable. You know there's gonna be a lot of things that feel out of your control and don't worry about them and just have fun. You know like this is it is it is the least productive way to jumpstart your career is doing improv so you know just enjoy it instead of worrying about becoming you know as good as you're supposed to be getting in the first year or whatever. Be gentle on yourself. Don't lose the joy. I say this in every level of class like I'm always like hey guys like we're grownups playing pretend like relax like this is crazy that we get to do this. It's so stinking fun like and like don't take it so seriously. I have fun enjoy the process. Make friends. That was Molly Thomas, John Ascrabus, Liz, Nooth, Alex Dixon, Ashley Ward, Kevin Mulaney, Jenny SanAngelo, Bethapel, Morgan Phillips, Lily, DuJay Cornel, James Dwyer, Ray Cordova, Jessica Morgan, Achilles, Semonelaki, Luke Gonzalez, Merit Samontenius, Kevin Mulaney, Lydia Hensler, and Patrick Nooth. I'm gonna add one more part about being healthy and I've mentioned this before but improv or any passion can make your life better in so many ways but improv isn't therapy. Only therapy is therapy. In a previous episode Morgan Phillips mentioned that at a certain point the things in the way of you being good at improv are the same things in the way of you being better as a person. So definitely use improv to make your life better but don't use improv as the only rope tethering you to the shore. If you haven't tried therapy, try therapy. Just like you wouldn't have a practice session without a coach without an outside eye to say hey I noticed this. Get another set of eyes looking out for you as a person. Anyway that was episode 26 Advice. Take it or leave it. It's up to you. Finally thanks to Shem Penant who did the first pass on this episode and to Alejandro Cardona who co-wrote the episode and did all of the editing for this episode. He somehow took over three hours of material and made it into something listenable which is incredible. Please rate and review the podcast on iTunes and if you have any feedback for me please send it to [email protected]. C-U-R-T-I-S-R-E-T-H-E-R-F-O-R-D. Also if you want to support me and help pay for the hosting costs of this podcast you can do so via my patreon patreon.com/actuallycurtis. Thanks so much to everyone who has done so and thanks to everyone who is part of this episode. Hi I'm Jesse Lee. Lugansolas. Kelsey Bailey. Liz Knoth. Molly Thomas. Hi I'm Lily Do. I'm Chris Scott. Jake Cornell. I'm Ritzen Montanhas. Patrick Knoth. James Dwyer. I'm Morgan Phillips. Alex Dixon. Sebastian Cannelli. Jessica Morgan. Ray Cuedova. Kevin Himes. Hi Lydia Hensler. My name is Will Himes. Joey Price. Bill DePiro. I am Achilles Stalmatelaki. Nicole Dresspell. Hi I'm Jenny Siananjolo. Kevin Mulaney. Ashley Ward. Beth Appell. Hi I'm John Timothy. Shem Penent. Alejandro Cardona. And I'm Curtis Rutherford. Do you have any different advice then for somebody who has maybe been around for like let's say like two three years? What's my advice for them? You're still not good.