#2569 - Bill Thompson

Joe Rogan Podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day. Joe Rogan Podcast by night. All day. Put the microphone in front of your face so we can use this. What are you saying? Some people think the stuff about the Roadster online was like, you know, it's not real. It's 100% real. My friend was there. No, no. I'm even like, words are tough. You have to use your words very carefully. Well, here's the thing. Will it be available in the general public? Right. Probably not. No. How could you use it? How could you make that legal where you have a car that can fly over other cars if there's a traffic stop? Like, I'm trying to, I guess what some people are saying, it's like, you know, a test model car. Like, this will not, this is the version, a concept car. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, first of all, it probably won't be released anywhere near when they say it's going to be released, just based on what he's done in the past. I mean, the Roadster, there's a lot of people that paid $250,000 for the Roadster in 2017. Yeah, I know a guy who did that. Yeah, I know a guy who did that too. And like, imagine you did that back then and you were expecting that car. You got a completely different design. Yep. I mean, a completely different looking car. Now it has the fucking Lamborghini doors. Yeah. And it flies. What? This guy's nuts. He's so out of his mind. He's got too much money. He just does whatever the fuck he wants. I'm not with the people saying it's fake. It's fake with wires and stuff. Some people said that there was wires on cranes and, yeah, I don't, I'm not buying that. No, well, there is already a car that does that trick where it can go upside down. There's this, there's this race car. God, I forget the name of it. But it actually has a fan underneath the bottom of the car that acts as a suction. And this car does insane lap times because it's absolutely glued to the ground. Perfect handling. Yeah, perfect handling. And it's only a one-seater car. McMurtry? That's it. McMurtry, Spurrow. Yeah. Let me try to find a video. Put some headphones on. Shit, watch this thing. Put it, see if you can find, it's a, it's a hyper, yeah, see, that's it. It goes upside down. This thing is literally crazy. It blows away all of the lap times on every single racetrack. Because, first of all, it's really light, really tiny, has insane power because it's all electric. And it has so much suction at the bottom that it can go upside down. So they were the first. They were the first ones to at least demo this type of tech. And they did it on this car. Like, this car literally has so much suction. Give me some volume so you can hear this. So this is a literal suction cup underneath the engine that's allowing this thing to hold its entire body weight, which has got to be, like, I would imagine at least close to 2,000 pounds. Yeah. It's one of those carbon fiber bodies, carbon fiber and everything. Even if it is, with the engines and the batteries. Yeah, yeah. So if it was a combustion engine car, maybe it could be under 2,000 pounds. Like, there's a few Porsches. Like, they make some really old, like, resto mod Porsches from, like, the 1960s and early 1970s that can get under 2,000 pounds. Like, there's this guy that worked for, God, I think he worked for Bugatti or something like that. One of those crazy high-tech car companies. And he built a car. It was completely the opposite. He built a car where he stripped everything out of it. He made, like, a 1969 Porsche, stripped everything out of it, made all of the panels fiberglass, and he got it to, like, 1,800 pounds. Wow. And the idea is, like, that is, like, the most visceral driving experience, the most connected you are to a car, the lighter they are. The heavier they are, they can get really crazy with performance. Like, my Tesla is probably, like, 4,000 pounds. But it just. It's like a time machine. Isn't the Cybertruck, like, seven or eight or something like that? Well, that's even bigger, right? I have the Model S, but the Cybertruck is all, it's all cold stamp steel. I think that's the type of steel. But it's incredibly heavy. I ordered one of those, and then I ended up pulling out. What happened? I kind of regret it. I don't know. I just, I wanted one. I loved it. I just liked the idea of it. It's very seldom that I would look at a car and just smile every time I looked at a car. And every time I looked at that Cybertruck, I just smiled. So I was like, I kind of want one of those. And then I put that in there. I put the money down. My wife was like, what are you doing? And I was like, I want one. Like, I've always been a Ford guy. So I've got, like, a Ford Tremor, which I love that truck. And so I put the money down. And then I started hearing, like, other guys got them. And they're like, oh, there's some issues and bugs being worked out. So I was a coward, and I pulled out. I shouldn't have done it. But I did. Well, you can get one now. Yeah, yeah. I mean, they're making, I'm sure they make them better now. I'm sure they're, they've figured out whatever the kinks were. It's like any other thing. Yeah. The first generation, it's going to have kinks that have to be worked out. Yeah, but there's some issues where people are, like, pulling the panels off. And some of the panels were, like, literally glued on. But they fixed all that stuff now. So this is the thing in the air. Honestly, though, completely honestly, I like the look of the original model better. I do, too. I think it looked cooler. The original Roadster, it looked more like a modern supercar. And that looks more like a Lamborghini. It looks like a Lamborghini had a baby with a Cybertruck. Right. Yeah. And not even, like, a new Lamborghini. Like, a Lamborghini from the 90s. Yeah. Which are cool. Like a Countach. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, like, that one is sick. That's slick. That thing's sick. That looks amazing. That's the, I mean, maybe they could redo that. I don't know. It's a crazy world. It's, these things are weird. It's weird that you can get a car that goes zero to 60. That is going to be real. It's going to go zero to 60 in under a second. It's fucking insane. Well, at that test, it was 0.8, 0.9 seconds or something like that. Yeah. That's crazy. That's, that's like, you're going to liquefy your insides if you go any faster. Well, it's half the speed of sound. Right? I mean, it's a full, top speed, rather. It's top speed is half the speed of sound, which is just insane. I think it's, like, top speed is over 300 miles an hour. What is half the speed of sound? Is it, like, 380 or something? It said 360. 360? That's insane. That's fucking insane. I mean, I like going fast, but I don't know if I want to go that fast. I, I like, uh, I like going fast, but what I really like is the feeling of a car. That's what, unless you're a race car driver, all the, how fast you go is all horseshit. They're all fast. Every car's fast. You can get a, get a, you want to, like, the bargain, this is, like, the absolute best cool car bargain. Get a Ford Mustang GT. My, my favorite car of all time, and I've been saying this for years and I've never bought one, but my sister. My sister and her husband used to race, um, Mustangs, and he had a 71 Ford Mach 1 with the big, big back end, and, uh, he eventually turned it into, like, what they call a super calm, funny car, so it became alcohol-fueled, and the only thing that was original was, like, the back end, but everything else got replaced over time. It was a funny car, essentially, but I've been in love with that car since I was, like, eight years old. Like, I just look at that, and I think to myself, that is, like, that is muscle car par excellence. Like, it's the perfect. Yeah, and those cars aren't the best. They're the best to drive. No, no, hell no. They don't handle that good. No. But it's the feeling that you get when you're driving them. It's like you're driving a ride. Like, when my kids were little, they used to love this one ride at Disneyland. God, what is it called? It's, it's based on the movie Cars. It's like you get in a car, and you're kind of steering, and you're going on, it's like you're on tracks, and you're going around. Like the Lightning McQueen car type of thing? Yeah. I forget. There's two car rides. There's one car ride where you're not steering, you're just in a car. It's like a roller coaster. There's a car next to you, and you're supposedly racing. This one's different. This one, you get in these little cars, and you actually do kind of steer them. Huh. And they're, they're fun. And it's not fast. It's like, but it's like loud, and you feel the steering and the engine. Like, that's what I like. I like cars that engage you. Like, they, there's a visceral connection. There's like, there's some sort of a mechanical connection. You feel it. This show is presented by DraftKings. Think DraftKings isn't available in your state. Think again. The cage is set, and DraftKings keeps the full card at your fingertips in one sports app live in all 50 states. Download the DraftKings sports app and use the code ROGAN. New customers can spend five and get 200 in bonuses within 21 days. That's code ROGAN. Spend five, get 200 in bonuses. In partnership with DraftKings, the crown is yours. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER. 1-800-MY-RESET. Connecticut called 888-789-7777. Or visit ccp.com. On behalf of Boothill Casino in Kansas. Bet tax pass through may apply in Illinois. 21 and over. Void in Canada. Event contract trading with DraftKings Predictions involves risk of loss. Availability varies. Predictions offer void in New York. Bet to get bonus bets that expire in seven days. 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Trading involves risk of loss. Market availability varies. Eligibility restrictions apply. $50 every seven days via click-to-claim issued in non-withdrawable predictions dollars that expire in one year. Terms at dkng.co slash predictions promo. Limited time offer. Nationwide based on sportsbook predictions and or free-to-play sports contest availability. Varies by state. That's what I like. Yeah, I did driving courses while I was in the military. We had like what you would call, I guess it was called at the time, like a high-risk officer pipeline. So the, I guess like the expectation would be at some point you might be caught or captured. So there's all these different courses that they send you through in order to, you know. Sure. It's like Sears School on steroids. But one of the courses was for like a week and a half, all you do is learn how to drive. Like they have rally car instructors come and teach you how to drive and like how to do trail turns and how to drive. You know, navigate course and then you do on road, off road. And like they put you in all kinds of crazy scenarios. Like at one point they drive you up to a checkpoint and you've got a bag over your head and they put you at the checkpoint and they say, all right, we're going to take this bag off. When we take the bag off of your head, react to the situation like it's an operational scenario and you can employ whatever you need to do. Like they basically just want to see how you do under pressure, but it's part of the car course. So you're at this checkpoint and, you know, for me it was, you know, I'm not going to do it. You know, the guard started freaking out and then they're shooting blanks and stuff. And basically they just want to see, because they teach you exactly how to do it. Like you plant your left foot or you, yeah, you plant your left foot. You stand up, you get behind yourself and then steer it backwards. And like, how can you navigate a serpentine in reverse in a car while under fire and get out of a situation? It was a lot of fun. The courses were a ton of fun and you learn like from the best drivers in the world. And like everything in life, you think, you have a conception of how these things will be before you get into them. It's like golf. Like I really, I got into golf years ago because I was told I would suck at it. And because I was a rugby player at the time and it was my, you know, father-in-law said, you're not a golfer. You're a large blunt instrument. Like go keep playing rugby. And so I was like, fuck this guy. I'm going to fucking be as good as golf as I can. So, you know, at first I was trying to lift the ball or I was trying to, over-correct and prevent a slice by really strengthening my grip. It was actually, no, you got to hit from the inside to the out. You got to transfer your weight here. You actually, if you want the ball to go high, you need to hit down on it. And it was the same thing with cars. If you want to drive fast, keep your tires in contact with the road as much as possible. Use the brake to front load the weight because we were driving Interceptor and Pallas in the course. So it's like most of the weights in the front. So you want to apply brakes through the corners. People think fast and furious is like the fastest way to drive a car. You know, I should say the public consciousness. Obviously, anyone who's ever been around a race car driver or watches race cars knows you need the wheels in contact with the road as much as possible. You try to draw a straight line through the course and navigate that straight line. So if you're cutting corners and stuff like that to keep the cars as straight a line as possible, steer as little as possible. Don't oversteer like you always see in the movies. Like people are oversteering like the car. It's like, no, like the guy in the course was like, never oversteer. If you have to put one hand over the other, you're failing. Feed one hand, feed the wheel from one hand to the other and take a trail turn. And if you oversteer, you're going to lose contact with the ground and you're going to be slower. So it was all these opposites. I guess the point is. Opposites of perception. Yeah, you have a perception going in that this is like a fast, like when I get really good at this course, I'm going to be, you know, what do they call it? Like in Fast and the Furious when they're, you know, taking a really tight course corner and their back end swings out and the car is squealing. I don't remember the slide. Drifting. Drifting. Drifting. Like you think like, you know, 25, 30 year old me at the time was like, this is what I'm going to be doing by the end of the course. Like, no, apply the brake and take the turn. Correct. Turn it correctly. Keep the wheels on the ground. Yeah, that's the key is knowing the limitations of the car and being able to avoid doing that. Yeah. But it's been around quicker. It's been the case for me in life. Anytime I learned something at a very high level, like even with archery, like, the slower you can pull the trigger on the release and my instinct would be like, snap, slap it. And some people slap it and do fine. But for me, it's the same with long distance shooting. Like when I take a long distance shooting course, pull that trigger. So you almost can't even anticipate where the, where it's going to fire, at what point it's going to fire, like manipulate the play and pull the trigger as slow as possible. And that will be the most accurate shot you're going to take. If the shot surprises you nine times out of 10, it's going to be, it's going to be more accurate than a shot that you've anticipated. Right. Because you're anticipating recoil. Yeah. There's, there's a caveat to that. The caveat to that is there's some very high level archers that win a lot of big tournaments that do what they call command trigger. For sure. And I think what's going on there is those guys learned how to shoot a surprise shot first. And those guys, almost all those guys, those target guys, they use a hinge. Yep. And, or at least sometimes, sometimes they use a hinge. A lot of them use thumb buttons now, but, and they use a thumb button like a hinge. They just load it up with back pressure until it goes off. Yeah. In a surprise shot. But there's, there's guys like James Lutz and there's a, a few of these, Kyle Douglas, Tim Gillingham. These guys win giant tournaments and they command shoot. Yeah. Yeah. So they shoot, what they do is they put the pin over the, and they know how to stay stable. Yeah. And they've done it for so long and they have tremendous back pressure on the trigger or on the, the bow. So they're pulling. Yeah. And then they hit the trigger when they want it to go. Yeah. They can keep their shit together. And I think it's, it's a mental thing. The real problem with people in target panic is two things. One, if you're in a tournament, like when you're shooting, if you're getting target, like those guys are shooting. If people have never seen a Vegas round. So what a Vegas round is, you have three targets and you're shooting at 20 meters and you're shooting, you're trying to hit a dime at 20 meters, 30 times. And so that's how you get a 300 score. Yep. This guy Lutz just shot 719. So he, at a 720, 720 is possible. So at a 72 arrows, this motherfucker only got a nine once and he's command shooting. Yeah. This is the thing. It's like, so it's not, it's not a steadfast rule. Yeah. But to overcome the pressure of that anticipation and flinching, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, that's when people turn to a surprise shot. I think the pressure's the problem. It's not the technique of releasing because if you show someone how to shoot a bow and they put the target, they put the pin over the target, they hit the trigger. For a while, they're good at it, right? So what happens? What, what, what makes them not be good anymore? Well, it's clearly their mind. Yeah. It's clearly the pressure. Yeah. And so I think maybe you can be just as active and accurate, if not more accurate using a command shot, but you need to understand how your mind is working and you need to understand how to mitigate pressure and, and how to stay calm. Yeah. And I think there's only a few ways to do that. There's, there's strategies that you can use. You can learn techniques, but the reality is when a moment, a big moment hits you, you're going to freak out. So I think the strategy might be just have a bunch of big moments, have more big moments in your life, more instances in your life where you have to think about how you have to deal with pressure. And that kind of tracks with everything else in life. The people that have dealt with pressure, that understand pressure and, and know how to perform, they can kind of do anything. You can kind of go from that and be involved in all sorts of other things that involve pressure. But if you don't know pressure at all, and then all of a sudden there's a screaming bull elk in front of you at 40 yards, and all you've been shooting at is a target. Yeah. You're going to panic. Yes. Especially if you're not a pressure person. Yes. Now, if you are a pressure person, you're probably still going to freak out the first couple of times. Yeah. But eventually, you'll figure it out. Yeah. Your road to figuring out would be a lot quicker. Yeah. If you've dealt with pressure in the past. That's what I think. With Spartan Forge, we have a guy on our ambassadors, I guess you'd call him. I don't like any of the terms. He's a guy that we trust to consult for us on features in the app. And then he'll talk about the app. His name is Levi Morgan. Oh, he's the best. He's a fantastic archer. And just spending time around those guys, They definitely have a way Because we had an archery competition a couple of years ago, everyone in the company, and he was part of it. What's funny is, now, if we were to do this nine times out of ten, this guy wouldn't win. But one of my engineers is this killer named Evan Freed, and he and Levi were in the final. Like, 20 guys started this archery competition. It was the two of them at the very end, and Evan beat them. Oh, my God. I couldn't believe it. Weaponized autism. He's one of them. He's one of them. I mean, he absolutely was a stone-cold killer. And then we did it with these other guys at an attack event, like a total archery challenge. How much did he beat Levi Morgan by? I mean, he won. I don't remember exactly what the delta was, but he won. That's crazy. And nobody could believe it. Like, everyone looked at him like John freaking Wick for the rest of the week. And like, who is this guy that just went and shot at the king and didn't miss? And Levi's the best in the world. And like I said, if they had done that nine times more, Levi would have won the next nine. Maybe. But for one moment. Maybe. For one moment, he was Prometheus. I don't know about that. See, we're going back to the mind again. If he can do it once, why can't he keep doing it? Yeah, maybe. I mean, there you go, Evan. Maybe you should quit as an engineer for me and go and be a professional archer or something like that. There's a lot of these rules that people have for things. And I'm like, well, who invents these rules? Other people. And a lot of times people invent rules to sort of, to kind of rationalize or deal with their own struggles. Right. So they invent rules of like what you can and can't do, what you can and can't get away with, what works and what doesn't work. You only know what works if you try it and it works. Yeah. Think again. The cage is set and DraftKings keeps the full card at your fingertips in one sports app live in all 50 states. DraftKings keeps you close to the pay-per-view card from the first walkout to the final. That's code Rogan. Spend five, get 200 in bonuses in partnership with DraftKings. The crown is yours. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER. 1-800-MY-RESET. Or visit ccpg.org. On behalf of Boot Hill Casino in Kansas. Bet tax pass-through may apply in Illinois. 21 and over. Void in Canada. Availability varies. $50 in rewards issued every seven days via click-to-claim for 21 days. Limited time offer. Nationwide based on sportsbook predictions and free-to-play sports contest availability. Varies by state. That's a heuristic, which is something I talk about all the time. It's people come up with a good enough way to do something that works for them. And it might not work for everyone. Well, another example of this would be Cam Haynes. Doesn't he really slap whenever he fires? He kind of pulls it slowly back, but it's definitely a command shot. But then again, look at, first of all, his ability to deal with pressure. He runs 300-mile races. He does all this crazy shit. On top of that, he's been a hunter for 30 years plus. And more, probably 40 now, right? So he's been hunting most of his life. And he's had so much experience pulling the trigger on animals. Yeah, yeah. And that reps, it's all about reps. It's all about reps with everything in life. And it's all about, it's not just reps. It's recent reps. You know, it's like having the amount of repetitions like recently to the point where it's a normal, natural part of your psychology, the way your mind works. I'll do that with whitetail hunting is I always make sure I try to kill two or three doe before I really do anything. I really start zeroing in on going for a buck. Because if a buck's the first thing I'm looking at and it's been nine months since I've hunted or six months or whatever since I've hunted, I'll still get it. I've been hunting for 25 years and I'll still freak out. Buck fever. Or get the adrenaline drop afterwards. I don't usually get the, I've never really gotten the adrenaline drop when it's happening. But as soon as that arrow is loosed, then I'm like, I'm just like freaking out. Like I don't even know what happened. Well, at least you can keep it together before the arrow's loosed. Because that's where most people fall apart. I mean, I've seen professional, you know, I don't want to, I don't want to call them professional hunters, but people that make their living as hunting influencers. And they have these videos and you can watch them on YouTube and they're shaking like a leaf when they're drawing back their bow. And they're like, wow, this guy's been hunting for 40 years. And he still gets jazzed up. Yeah, there's something about that. I think it's why we all want to keep hunting, right? Because it's probably hard to do. Well, it's hard to do for sure. But it's wired into our, you know, however we evolve, however we establish over time, one thing is true is that we were able to stick around and have, and have success because we had these groups of hunters that would go out and hunt for the tribe. So there's wiring in us. 100%. That hunting might be the only way or one of the few ways to tap into that in a way that your body immediately understands. Fishing is too. Yeah, fishing for sure. I always bring, well, I have these comparisons that I do. It's one of the reasons why I say I never go to protests because protests are like fishing. This is why. Like fishing is a part of your DNA. Like you get a little kid. When my daughter was five, it was like the first time I took, or fishing when she caught a fish. She was like so excited. Like, Oh, Oh, Oh, it's in you. It's in you. You know, that catching this thing means your, your, your body's rewarding you with all these good feelings and good endorphins because now you're going to eat. You're going to be able to feed your family. You're going to be able to survive when you're protesting and everyone's walking down the street, chanting and cheering. That's too much like war. Yeah. That excites the part of the brain that thinks we're supposed to smash Starbucks to crush the people. The patriarchy or whatever the fuck you want to light things on fire. When you see people behaving with, you know, air quotes, mob mentality. What is that? I'll tell you what that is. That's war. That's your body's ability to recognize that it's you with a bunch of other people that are supposed to be on your side. You're in a life or death situation and you're against another team and you're marching and chanting and screaming and everybody's hyped up. And next thing you know, violence breaks off and everybody. Gives into that feeling, giving into the kind of behavior that would be almost impossible to imagine if you were by yourself smashing someone's car window where you're by yourself, walking up to Starbucks with a fucking traffic cone and breaking the window and diving in and throwing things off the shelves. You would never do that while you're by yourself. Why are you doing it with this giant group of people? Yeah, it's the war thing. It's just like the fishing thing. Yeah. You know, like it's in you, it's that circuit, let's go. You start black lives matter. Whatever it is, whatever it is, you know, no Kings, whatever it is. Yeah. You start marching down the street, free Palestine. You know, these fucking buildings are keeping us from freeing Palestine. You want to light them on fire. And that's what people do. It's, it's a normal part of us that allowed us to survive 2026 with tribal warfare. Yep. That we needed that circuitry. And that feeling that you get from catching a fish, multiply that times a thousand for archery elk hunting. Yeah. It's, it's off the charts, the highs and the lows. There was a, um, a deer I was chasing. I'm more of a white tail hunter. I've only been out hunting twice. Um, I, I want to do it more. I just haven't had the time. And I lived on the Eastern seaboard most of my career as in the military. So the option of going West and out hunting wasn't in the cards for me. So mostly white tail hunted, but a couple of years ago I was hunting, uh, um, uh, a public land buck in the Allegheny that was 12 years old. Where's the Allegheny? Uh, um, well, it was actually, wasn't actually. Allegheny was east of there, but it's, uh, North, North central Pennsylvania would have been the better way to say it, but I just say Allegheny cause that's near there. It's farther, it's farther east of there. It's actually a couple hours east of there. But, um, anyway, uh, I was hunting up there and, uh, there's buck everyone had knew about, and he was old and huge. And at one point he was like 170 inches and that's pretty big for a public land, white tail buck and everyone knew about it. And I was going up into this area to hunt where there he had been historically. During the rut thermals were wrong in the area. Thermal draw was pulling and, or it was rising still. And it should have been pulling at this point. So I was like, this is a bad spot. Like where, where he's at, he's going to smell me coming in. So I'm just going to walk to a different part. So I walked to the front of the mountain and just went up there where I knew the thermals would be better. And he was on a doe and I was still on the ground. I hadn't even climbed a tree yet. I was on the ground and he was pushing a doe into like a ditch. And then he popped out. And when I saw him, I was like, Holy crap, that's him. Like that's the Monarch. Everyone called him the Monarch. And I was like, ah, like, I'm still like freaking out. Anyway, I pulled back and put it right in like double lunged him at like 35 yards. And, uh, I had like an adrenaline drop for like 25 minutes afterwards. I couldn't even call my buddy to come and help me drag him. Cause I was so, I was freaking out so bad. And, uh, it was, it was a consequence of like three years of knowing this buck existed or that he was in the area. And then you put all this time in like way more time than you should to chase this animal. And you, you have this goal. And then all of a sudden it's in front of you and you're like, I can't believe this is happening. This is happening. And then I always say the same thing I used to say in the military when I was shooting, which was to kind of get into my zoning out mode. I had this acronym I learned in the military, which was stab, steady position, trigger, squeeze, aiming, and breathing. So every time I'm at full draw, I say to myself very silently, I'm just like steady position, slow trigger, squeeze, aim, breathe. And then I always breathe at the perigee of my breath. So I'll take a breath. big breath in, I'll breathe all the way out so there's no air in my body and slow pull and I when I say that when I remember to say that to myself then it's kind of like any panic or anything kind of falls away and I'm just focused on the task of steady position trigger squeeze aiming breathing but it happened for like 25 minutes afterwards you have have you studied any of Joel Turner stuff uh-uh I know who he is um we've talked on Instagram a couple of times I've I mean I've watched some videos but to say I've studied him or I know the whole story I would that'd be inaccurate well his strategy is essentially what you just outlined just with different words but the same the same thing he he says you should talk to yourself through the entire shot so that you make this a closed loop thing yeah instead of an open loop thing and so what that means is an open loop thing is like swinging a baseball bat once you start to swing it you're swinging it yeah right it's going yeah and a closed loop thing is something you could stop at any moment like writing when you're writing something down you could just stop that pen at any moment it's not like it gets away from you right so the thing about an archery shot is it can kind of get away from you and that's when you flinch and that's when you're six inches off the mark yeah at 20 yards and you don't understand what happened and it's that's what he teaches people to avoid and he was a SWAT team member and he would teach people proper techniques in order to I mean he learned psychology and he learned like what's going on in the mind in order to be able to execute in those situations that are extremely high stress hostage situations like you had to shoot somebody that was holding someone hostage and you had to shoot somebody that was holding someone hostage right he's been in those things and he realizes that that's a life or death situation that can be mitigated by a certain amount of understanding of what's happening in the mind and what causes open loop or closed loop thinking and so what you're doing is instigating closed loop thinking by talking to yourself the entire time so by having every moment controlled and every moment calm and you have a system and you're actually saying that system through your head and you're saying that system through your head and you're head that's what keeps you in the present in the moment instead of just panicking like a lot of people do we've all seen it people just freak out yes and some people don't understand what is happening in their mind so they just repeat these things over and over again and they have good days and bad days and they don't understand where the bad days are coming from and what is it well what it is is your mind got away from you and sometimes the mind can just run amok yeah it can just take like that's why people have anxiety attacks i mean maybe some of the reasons why people i don't want to say but i don't know why people have anxiety attacks but some people have anxiety attacks because they start thinking about something and dreading it and then it builds up in their mind and then all of a sudden it's just a runaway train inside their brain and they haven't developed personal methods for stopping that and mitigating that kind of stress and and recognizing what's happening while it's happening and then talking yourself out of it and then you're like oh my god i'm like oh my god i'm like oh my god i'm like oh my god i'm like oh my god i'm like oh my god i'm like oh my god i'm like oh my and then talking yourself out of it and then you're like oh my god i'm like oh my god i'm like oh my god down off the ledge and just peace of mind getting getting yourself to a peaceful place some people don't have those strategies so the moment something goes sideways especially if they're not used to pressure the moment something goes sideways it just runs away from them yeah so lots of people say lots of things about me i remember andy on here talking smack about me being captain america of autism uh that's the first thing that comes to mind andy's the best he's i mean i talk to my closest like i shouldn't say closest friends i should say someone i regularly talk to and he's good for me because he's kind of the opposite of me in ways like he like like my wife and i are good for each other in the way that she worries about everything she's worried right now she's sitting outside worried out of her mind right now about something probably something she hasn't even talked to me about i almost worry about nothing until it becomes something that's important to me like if someone asks me to do some work or something that's particularly important to me i'm like particularly important um then i care about like okay this work will represent me i got to do it as diligently as i can um my representation reflects on my family so then things i start caring about things but if i do have a superpower i would say it was imposed on me in a weird way by my mother my mother was a alcoholic and um would go to aa meetings and drag me along like when i was really young and uh she they would say their serenity prayer at the beginning of every um alcoholic synonymous meeting which was god grant me the serenity to accept things i cannot change courage courage to change the things i can and wisdom to the difference so i'd be standing here and watching these people tell these insane stories like i went on a seven-day bender i'm from missouri i woke up in las vegas and i'd just be like what am i doing here i'm like nine years old like what is what is happening but that did stick with me and um i would say that's one of my superpowers is if i can't affect something i don't worry about it like if there's nothing i can do about it like i just had a conversation with my daughter about this last night he was worried about teenager things i was like look you know i've told you the serenity prayer your ama my my mother used to tell you tell me like try to just live by that and that kind of goes to the things we're talking about with shooting is let's just focus on the things we control and let's develop a heuristic or a way to get through this closed loop system that you're talking about and for me it was a heuristic because it was just something the military taught me that worked particularly well i didn't know all the psychology or stuff that you're talking about it there but um i would say if i had one superpower it's my ability to just not care when i can't affect the outcome that's very wise i wouldn't say yeah and i wouldn't say it's my wisdom it's something i adopted from someone else but it served me particularly well in life because whether it was in iraq or afghanistan or the philippines or africa or anywhere else i was in like a shady situation it's like okay this is going horribly what can i focus on i can get on the radio i can do this i can do that like let's do those things and let's get out of here and so it's it's served me really well um so well i think that's the proper strategy for navigating life correctly i i think the opposite like just freaking out about everything every time it happens that just doesn't it doesn't serve you i think what we're talking about early is an issue too like think about all the things you just said all the different places you were where things went sideways like most people don't have those experiences and that's one of the reasons why most people are not resilient and i think you need a certain amount of very high pressure situations in your life in order to kind of to galvanize your character yeah you know find out who you are when the chips are down you don't know who you are like we've all seen these guys they get in fistfights online um and they these videos online and they don't know how to fight and yet they talk themselves into this fight they it's almost like they want to believe and they want to convince this other person they want to fight and then they think they're going to be able to do it and everyone's watching i'm just going to hit this guy and it doesn't work out no and they wind up a highlight reel and everyone makes fun of them and then their life is literally ruined now when i was a kid if you got your ass kicked no one knew but you and the guys who kicked your ass yeah and it happened all the time for me it was like every two or three weeks somebody would get in a fight yeah fighting was so common for me growing up in like in a farm town in the middle of north dakota oh it was the highlight of our month nothing else to do if the school bully and threw down or whatever and that guy won or like right it's just like this is awesome but everybody got over it after a while and you forgot about the fight because there'd been 10 other fights since then and life moved on yeah now if you get your ass fucked up in a if you you go to talk some shit to some dude in a convenience store in front of his girlfriend he ko's you with a can of something like and someone's got the thing in your face like oh shit yeah you got knocked the fuck out the internet remembers they remember forever and all your friends remember all all the people you remember you become a meme yeah it's a way more difficult time to fuck up than ever in the past but it's one of those things too where i i said this well i just did annie's podcast like three weeks ago um but it's like essentially we can if you don't force you said talked about resilience but if you don't force um the the harshness of nature upon you like if you don't adopt it and try to put yourself in situations where things will get hard so you can find out who you are and you can do this in a multitude of ways right you can do it with jiu-jitsu you can go to a jiu-jitsu gym and get your ass handed to you time after time and just understand like okay i'm not the badass i thought i was and there's a whole wealth of things that i can learn for the next 50 years and so you're adopting something or like hunting my friends that i do we do fasted hunts together we were going to do this one this year but spartan forge kept me fasted fasted so what we do is we take a cooler we pack it with drinks and food and accoutrement like salads and stuff like that and then we get a yeti and we lock it and then one of the wives has the code for the yeti and she doesn't give us the code for the yeti until we kill something so we have to send her a picture of a doe or send a picture of a buck or something like that and so we'll just have salt water and we'll fast for two or three days and then you know somebody kills a doe finally like there's in the past when we do there'd be five or six of us so someone's gonna kill in the first few couple of days the shortest time was ever like 36 hours the longest time i think we went four days and then we're like oh my god i'm gonna die i'm gonna die i'm gonna die i'm gonna die and you're just hunting fasted and uh that's the best feeling in the world when someone texts and says like doe down it's like when you're three days into like and i'm a heavy guy so i can go a long time without food like i usually do a quarterly fast where i'll go the shortest is usually two or three days and the longest i'll do is seven days but isn't that different when you're out hunting like you're burning off it wears it down a lot quicker yeah yeah so like by day three you're hurting and so we we we have always killed within was except for one time we've always killed within three days but the sense of community and we talked about the wiring that it taps into like when you're sitting around a fire with like five six people and nobody's eaten and now you're texting the photo and you're opening the cooler and like you will want to you want to cry almost if you're like oh man you're the best i just i can't believe you did this is the best day ever oh my god like you're just you're feeling like you're on top of the world this episode is brought to you by eight sleep there are so many people out there who swear by the pod by eight sleep the smart mattress cover that goes on your existing mattress but if you've been on the fence now's the time to get on board why because they've just released pod six i'm gonna make it real simple for you here are the pod six headline upgrades it's a 50 smaller hub so it'll fit under most bed frames it features 20 faster temperature relief with nine times more biometric sensors in the cover it starts at just $1,999 the lowest price eight sleep has ever offered and if that's not enough this pod cools each side of the bed independently from 55 to 110 degrees fahrenheit use code rogan at eight sleep.com slash rogan for up to $200 off the pod six this episode is brought to you by lifelock scams have gotten smarter because criminals use ai to flood you with fake texts emails and phone calls that are more convincing than ever one wrong click could put your personal information and your identity at risk so protect yourself with lifelock lifelock helps detect and alert you to threats and if your identity is stolen lifelock will step in to fix it guaranteed or your money back dedicated us-based identity restoration specialists will work with you until your identity is restored backed by the million dollar protection package with up to three million in coverage for eligible scammers and coverage for eligible losses and expenses visit lifelock.com and save up to 30% your first year with the promo code jre that's promo code jre or go to lifelock.com slash jre for 30% off terms apply and uh it's you just killed a doe i know but that's what we're wired for and we're missing that i mean this is one of the reasons why people are so attracted to like these videos of people who survive or videos of subsistence cultures in the naked and afraid all that stuff there's a reason why we're attached attached to those things i think it's because that those human reward systems are the strongest purveyors of happiness that we have currently available to us yeah because we're not really wired to get happy from an instagram video it happens like we get happy a little but it's not the same happiness it's a very temporary it's not a body happiness like you shoot an elk at 60 yards and double lung it and watch it tip over that kind of happiness is there's nothing like that yeah there's nothing like that that's a different thing that's a survival thing it's built into your dna but the point i was making was if you don't choose something like choose to eat well choose to train choose to hunt or choose to do jiu-jitsu or choose just to get a degree in something really difficult if you don't yeah adopt those things then like nature reality will judge you and you're going to get fat and old or have no meaning you're also going to get anxiety and anxiety anything yeah almost anything and everything the people that i know that freak out the most about things don't do anything difficult right and they're the ones that are freaked out all the time about things that i'm like let's walk it off you're gonna be fine one of the things that works really well for my wife is i'll tell her to do something creative when she's feeling anxiety she'll like paint or draw or build something or um and that seems to be a good way to get like the creative juices flowing and just like complete something because i think one of the other problems is that we work both of us work in the tech industry um and the job's never done like when you're building software you're building things like it almost never gets finished right it's always like we're done with this thing it's on to the next thing so you don't get that sense of like you know north i would go back to north dakota every year and just farm and drive beat trucks for like two weeks i'd take them to the lake vacation to go and farm and drive beat trucks like do harvest because i just liked it being done and most times i donated the money to my church so i just go home and drive trucks for two days 12 hours a day beat trucks where i'm following a loader putting beats into the back of the truck and driving it there just because i was like i did three fields this week i feel awesome yeah you worked yeah i worked i did physical labor and it's finished that's the best part about is the work's done well there's something about that stuff that's very appealing to people that's why yellowstone's people they they have to run these cows or they're gonna not survive i mean right that's why we like you know these people that live as trappers and they live in the the fucking siberian mountains yeah there's something about that stuff that's just built into us i think we're probably more evolved for that than we are for what is going on today so it's it's satisfying the same circuitry we talked about before yeah which is really what we're made for which is interesting because like you recognize this yet you're in tech and you're in the industry and you're in the industry and you have an awesome application for phones yes but the goal of it is to get people out right that's true every time your tech is actually yeah very good for people that are outside and it actually helps you and because people have less time they can scout at home or like when they really want to get out into the woods or that you know september 13th and they fly in two days it's like or i can go scout this mountain digitally find out places i want to go and look at and then mark them and then get on the app but i always tell people when we're developing the app too like there's a bandwidth between the brain the thumbs and a phone and the amount of i'm trying always trying to maximize that bandwidth so the less time that i have to interact with an app in order to get more information i've increased bandwidth right so less buttons less time just let's just get them the information they need and get them focused on the woods because if i had my way about it they wouldn't pick the phone up once they're in the woods it goes in their chest pocket or their rig or whatever and then they're hunting um that this is the apps that i'm building like we're just about to implement an awesome thermals feature that we've been building for a long time and we can act now accurately map thermals so when you're elk hunting and you see like a you know i'm waiting for these thermals to switch because where these elk are where these elk are at um the sun is hitting the side of this mountain thermals are rising from the bottom and the wind is coming from the top so there's no way to get to these elk so i need to wait for the thermal switch so with this um update we're going to put out first on the web you can pick a day time of the year you can go historical and look up historical weather so you can say these elk were in this area i dropped this pin now i'm going to place this marker here and i want to see how the thermals are acting in the area this is what kills most hunters is not understanding how thermals work especially white tails and elk hunters they don't know how the thermals work or they don't understand it or they've never gone in the off season what we're talking about with people for people that don't know what the fuck we're talking about when the morning is happening when it's cold and early in the morning all the wind is going down the mountain yeah when it gets hot then all of a sudden the ground heats up and then the wind starts going up the mountain yeah so when these animals are below you as you're coming down the mountain they're going to smell you immediately because all the smell is coming down so you have to approach them from the bottom yeah and then when they're above you if it starts getting hot out you got to get above them and you got to get above them quick or they'll blow out yeah they'll blow out they can smell you from forever away i've seen animals smell me from 100 yards away it's wild i've seen i've seen um good data on studies and a buddy of mine he used to take a friend of mine he died in 2017 but he's a prolific white tail photo uh he took photos of white tails he had a deer pen and there was a mountain that was a three-quarter mile away from his property in new york and when those does came into heat all of the bucks would gather at the base of this fence to smell the wind coming off this mountain of these does that were three-quarter mile away so you think about that like how well they can smell and uh so yeah we're putting this thermal feature out but the thermal feature the reason i bring that up is because it's designed to be used at home so you can map the thermals for an area you can put in the temperature you can put in the wind speed and this engine beautifully maps exactly how the scent is going to move around on this mountainside can i ask you this does it vary depending on east or west slope because of his east slope it the thermals will rise quicker right yes and yes because the sun and the incidence of the sun because what we had to build into this was an extremely high resolution topographic layer we had to um have this engine but then we also had to put like canopy cover into this oh wow so it it modulates differently based on the type of canopy that it's in whether it's elk on the side of a hill or it's in the open air or it's elk inside of a bunch of hemlocks or not hemlocks but like aspens or something like that it's going to change how those thermals work and i've been using it um just the other day i've got these spots with bucks know where these thermals are as bucks get older and we'll get off the white-tailed deer i apologize but you got me hyped up on hunting no i love white uh uh it's number one most hunted big game animal yeah i know i just mean hunting writ large people i doubt most people want to hear me talk about who cares okay i think people like hearing people talk about things that are very fascinating to them and i think people that don't understand hunting especially people that think it's easy you really don't understand what it is they really don't understand how complicated it is particularly bow hunting but even think rifle hunting is easy good luck rifle hunting is not easy it's not easy there's so much territory you have no idea how big the mountains are when you get out there it is insanely hard yeah it's all hard yeah yeah it's a little easier than archery in that you can be 300 yards away and accurately shoot okay still not easy yeah not by the that's like saying that boxing is slightly easier than mma boxing's not easy shut the fuck up different it's they're hard things to do and especially to do them well and to understand all these like when i first started hunting when steve ranella took me that's that mule deer that i got right there in 2012 that's when i first started hunting immediately i was like oh my god this is so much more difficult and there's so much more to learn than i ever understood this layer upon layer it's so complex especially to be good at it and i'm not that good at it i mean i'm successful at it but it's also a lot of it because i use really good guides and people help me and i'm and i can handle pressure so and i'm in shape so there's those things but i'm learning things all the time i'd say like if i was a hunter if it was like a jujitsu belt i'd be like a high level purple belt maybe a brown belt yeah but i'm not a black belt yeah i know the difference there's like when i hunt with cam haynes i'm like oh okay yeah i don't know anything he's a six degree black belt he takes he he shows me things all every time i've known that guy for 12 fucking years and every time we hunt together he shows me something new and i learned something new some new approach some new way to handle a situation this is what's going on they're going to do this this is why they're going to do this you got to know that we got to get ahead of them yeah like there's things he knows that i i don't know and i i you only learn with time and with studying and when it becomes the primary focus of your life and for me it takes over my life around june around june it just takes over my mind yes i do other things but i'm thinking about september same thing i was when i was driving yesterday i was telling my family i'm like i'm watching the leaves change all i can think about is i want to be in those trees right now it's like it's there's something about well anyway to finish the point on the thermals i marked some of using this model i marked some of my best whitetail hunting spots in the mountains and then i mapped the thermals and looked at the thermals and it was it became apparent why deer were using these routes because an old wise whitetail buck knows he's getting thermals from like 320 degrees are funneling into this one spot based on the predominant wind for the area all these things that the app can tell you and it's like oh that's why he's always been in this spot because he knows the whole mountain before he ever steps a foot on it he knows he knows if there's a hot doe on that mountain he knows if there's anything on that mountain he can smell it and it really has opened my eyes like i can't wait to get this feature out so people can see it but the goal to put a bow on this is to get people out and experiencing it because uh i think it's a great mechanism for like coming of age for young kids like hey you know you're you're 14 or 15 or whatever i'm gonna treat you like a man from today we're gonna go out and kill an animal and eat it together and get a bunch of guys together for men i think it works for women as well but i'm saying particularly for young men we've kind of lost coming of age um rights or we've kind of like you know in native american tribes you study or viking or all these other they had a time and place where it's like now you're a man i'm going to treat you like a man no more excuses right and we've kind of put that off and we kind of spoke about this last time but it's something that i think we desperately need for young men because and for adults even who haven't really chosen to start acting like men and i can say i act like a child all the time so i'm not a perfect dude but the military was that for me so mine got kind of outsourced um but it's i think it leads to a lot of problems that we have in society today like things my grandpa used to bitch at me about when i was a kid like 100 there's a lot of people who are never truly tested and they live their life with this just cloud of uncertainty constantly hanging over them and this yeah not this lack of understanding of their capabilities and how they can expand those capabilities that's the thing about being tested is that you realize like oh i fell short i'm i suck at this this is not my thing i got to learn how to do it and then you learn and then you realize oh i can expand my potential in all things i learned it from martial arts that's what that's what happened with me when i was young i got into martial arts when i was 15 like really heavily and then it became my whole focus and it changed my whole the whole way i approach life i realized like that pressure and big moments and things that are difficult are good for you they're blessings yeah and you you learn about yourself from those things yeah i think i talked about this with andy but i think it was plato um was not only known for his great thinking but known for his excessively good wrestling ability really plato uh means broad or broad shoulders that's what his name meant um and he said it's one of the worst things in life to go through life and not understand the full potential of the human body like to not push yourself physically to a place where a you understand the actual capability of your body to make it through a situation um and then b to understand what type of person you regress to when the chips are down which was another thing the military gave me it wasn't like something i had this profundity and i went out and searched for it it's like i'm in a seer course where i'm being pursued by you know operators and you know because there's there's a regular seer courses in the military and then there's graduate level seer courses and that was kind of what is a seer course survive evade resist escape okay so in the initial one which is kind of more for pilots and aircraft crew members they teach you how to survive in the wild how to evade capture like if you're being pursued and then if you're caught how to resist torture enhanced interrogation methods that type of thing and then how to escape so you get kind of like a watered down version that a lot of people go to but then this high risk officer pipeline or um if you're in jsoc and other stations they put you through like a real deal holyfield one the one i went to was like three weeks and they teach you picking handcuffs how to escape from a trunk how to escape from a house how to improvise like make firearms shotguns how to uh you know dress a squirrel and eat it but they put you through like like a week i think it was actually six weeks maybe not four weeks but you do two weeks of training where it's like you just sit in a place and you're picking handcuffs you sit in a place and you're learning how to get out of a trunk you sit in a place you learn how to like conduct polish on what you're wearing so if you have to if you're spotted by policemen and you need to change how you look how do you polish yourself so you change your appearance so if they've got an apb out for a guy in a gray shirt and a black pants how do you change that quickly um then after they teach you all that stuff they throw you into an operational scenario where you're just being pursued by a bunch of people who do this for a living and um you know my evasion was like i think like 12 or 13 miles to the appalachian mountains and you're sleeping on that night and i actually had a crazy it's the only thing that ever happened to me so i wasn't in an evasion people are going to make fun of me for the story but it's fine um i was in the appalachians and i was like on day two or three or maybe four or something like that and i'd eaten very little um before i left the town that i was in to get up on and they teach you like how not to just walk a trail you basically serpentine snake a trail and so you know where the trail is you can still orient yourself but you're not following the trail because that's going to make you easily caught so you're running and when they started the the operational scenario you're put in a trunk of a car with a painting outfit on you're handcuffed and you're zip tied so you have to first defeat all of those restraints so you're learning that you learned how to pick the cuffs you learned how to get out of duct tape or or these other things and then you learn how to pop the trunk um from the inside whenever it's not built to be popped from the inside now they have all those latches that you can pull and just jump out but they'll put you in like an older vehicle and then you have to evade so now you're running from people who are chasing you and the local authorities know that you're part of this course and they're also if they see you they'll also um pursue you so you quickly learn how to change what you're wearing whether that's going to like a walmart donation point and reaching in or you know at one point in the course i just put my whole bottom half in a mud puddle so my white outfit now looked like i had black jeans on in the dark um so you learn all these like you know little things to do and then you do the evasion part well during like day three of the evasion part and i still don't know if this is a dream or if this happened i'm pretty sure it happened i'm 80 sure it happened but i hadn't eaten for a few days and i thought i ran into hikers on the appalachian trail so i came to an area and there were these people sitting on a log and again i don't know if this was a dream i don't know if this is because i hadn't eaten for days or because i was being tracked or i was under a lot of pressure but i had like a quick conversation with them and they're like well we're going to go to sleep and i was like okay like and they had along the trail they had these like little open-faced cabins right and so i saw them go into this open-faced cabin and uh and um go to sleep and then i started a fire and uh slept on the ground next to the fire and i just told them oh i'm just you know they give you a cover so you can just tell people what your cover is while you're in there when you enter when you interact with people um and uh so i did all that i started a fire i'm sleeping um by this campfire i wake up in the morning and it was a big dirt area so i wake up in the morning i looked over there like three hours later this was like 2 a.m when i got there and it's like 5 or 5 30 now and i look up and i'm like oh they're gone already like that's weird so um like i start the fire again quickly warm myself up to keep evading and uh then i looked at the ground there were no footprints anywhere So I was like, wait, did I see people here last night or not? Like, did this happen? or not and i'm like freaking out i'm like i'm not seeing like there should have been dirt like i thought they were sitting on a log there's no log here so when i was debriefing after the course i told the you do a debrief with like a with a doctor um who's monitoring everyone because at one point you're being slapped around or you're locked in these cages or you're locked in like at one point the government detention part i'm locked in a cement block like you're in a cement room where you can't stand up you can't sit down it's too thin for you to like get on the ground and they're playing this horrible freaking music at the top behind your head it's like violins that make no sense and you're in there for like eight hours and so you really start getting like have you ever done like a like a dunk tank or like a tank where it's dark yeah so deprivation yeah so this is what this is it's sensory deprivational you can't lay down you can't stand up you can't get comfortable because it's only like five and a half feet tall um it's too thin for you to lay on the ground they're playing this music in the back of your head and this is after you've been evading so you've been captured so you're dehydrated you haven't eaten and i was like seeing worms everywhere and i was like kept telling myself you're hallucinating like i was seeing like all these snakes inside of there like all this awful shit is happening to you and so i talked to the doc afterwards he's like oh no i've heard this story like 15 times did he hear the story of people meeting people that weren't people meeting people that weren't there or having an experience or being in a place because they do have you with a gps sensor and like a um in a fanny pack so that if you get lost or you get turned up or hit by a car or something like that um they know where you are um but they don't use that to chase you or they're not supposed to um and so he's like yeah i debriefed guys who thought they were in like different parts of the city or they were thought they were in a different area altogether um or they get lost and turn around they're dehydrated so like when you're not eating for a while you've got the stress of being chased by people who do this for a living you haven't had any water no reliable meals you're stressed out and you've been running for three or four days like your mind starts doing things to you guys you know i'm into ketones and i rock with ketone iq but here's something that blew my mind throughout history you see all these civilizations talking about fasting and how good it can be for your body and brain i honestly feel sharper when i do it that's because when you fast your body starts making its backup fuel ketones they burn clean last long feel amazing and they help you with focus and mental clarity but fasting is really hard so what i need is stay sharp i take ketone iq it delivers the same super fuel your body naturally makes when fasting right to your brain they help me drop into laser-like focus when i want to stay locked in and think clearly and that's the beauty of it you get the benefits of ketones without having to fast finally you can pick it up at cvs nationwide and your first shot of ketone iq is always free so head to your local cvs and try it out for yourself and i'll see you in the next video bye bye one for yourself or go to ketone.com rogan for 30 off your subscription order but maybe they're interdimensional travelers maybe they're interdimensional it's it's possible if you're an interdimensional traveler why do you have to look like an alien you know yeah you've got the ability to come here from another dimension i think you probably have the ability to look like elon musk i think it's highly likely that elon musk is an interdimensional traveler but something along those lines he's something yeah there's but that's my thought about aliens in general like i think if they were amongst us there's no way we would ever know if they have the technology to do the things that we think that they're doing right we are woefully inept to try to comprehend or understand what it is they're doing or who they are what they're doing right and why wouldn't they be able to imitate us we're simple and there's also so many different models of us to choose from there's so many different versions of us that you could draw from and create a compilation and you know make an artificial person or an image of a person or just affect someone's visual cortex to the point where they don't see you for what you really look like yeah for sure that seems like simple compared to traveling interdimensionally yeah or traveling interstellar yeah if they really do have these gravity drives that can instantaneously transport you from one galaxy to another i think they could probably pretend they're a person yeah i mean we we can screw with our own perception all the time and then people explain it to you and you're like holy crap i didn't even realize that yeah the two faces looking together with the vase or there's a there's one on the line where it's like it's a block with like a black bar in the middle uh-huh yeah we did that the other day yeah oh okay well i won't retell the story oh we've done it twice it's it's incredible yeah so what is that called again corn sweet yeah corn yeah so you could your perception can be messed with and if you think that one's nuts yeah if you think you're in control of your faculties you rest on a limbic system and a central nervous system that's been around for a long time and it's very patterned the way that it metabolizes reality and our ability to mess with that is i wonder what evolutionary advantage if any there is in being able to hallucinate when you're tired i think there's probably something to do with well what i'm not an expert on this but i know that dreaming is particularly important when it comes to that stage of sleep cycle is where you store memories so one of the things that happens when you're not sleeping for a long time is your memories and you're not sleeping for a long time is one of the first things to go um because you need those stages of sleep in order to remember things no that makes sense because when i'm sleep deprived my memory sucks yeah i mean i think dreams have tremendous amount of function i myself am a huge believer it's probably one of the things i believe in most is dreams and this is going to sound crazy coming from somebody who makes his living doing engineering but i do think that the collective subconscious and the individual um we're resting on millions of years of learned lessons that we can't possibly be born with um and so they pop up out of this collective subconscious like you see a person you just get the ick you're like i don't know what i like this guy i don't like this guy right that lessons probably happen to your ancestors 10 million times and something is popping out of that substrate that you don't have full access to and is telling you that because it's a heuristic that has been over a million years of evolution or 300 000 years or whatever you think humans have been around for that story's been told a million times and i think dreams it doesn't make sense to me and again i'm not the expert on this but it's stuff that i think about all the time actually i was um back in the day i was trying to impress my now wife and she's a mathematician and she uh you know went to johns hopkins super smart like just outside of the normal distribution of people especially um you know a woman who's really into mathematics is just not normal um or it's not you know as many there's far more many men i'm gonna get shit on for this i meet way more men mathematicians than i do with women and i'm sorry i don't control the fabric of reality but it seems to be the case i'm just observing things i'm observing patterns anyway she's a mathematician you covering all your bases yeah well dude doing your podcast the first time so much hate yeah you gotta stay out of the comments i don't know i don't go to i didn't read your comments where you getting the hate dms oh well stay out of the dms yeah well i will from now on close those off anyway yeah um but uh what oh yes so um dreams um i will have a problem in my life and so the reason i was talking about impressing my wife um i she was in the chaos theory and she's reading all these books on chaos theory and uh so i went on youtube to watch some videos about chaos theory this is an origin story for me of types of a type i actually saw a jordan peterson video but it was not about chaos theory it was about chaos and order like it was like you know it was one of those but i didn't know so i clicked the video and this is before he blew up this was like um you know when he was just posting stuff on youtube so i watched this video and my goal of watching the video was to get into understanding chaos theory but what i ended up doing was getting into carl jung because i watched one of these first videos and i was like oh my god i'm gonna so i have a very addictive personality so i read it started reading every carl jung book i could like the everything about the collective unconscious uh the red books everything that he wrote um and and and really got into to dreams and this might be a self-fulfilling prophecy it doesn't matter because it's particularly useful to me but i'll have dreams where and i used to you know have a psychologist that i talked to when i was in a kind of a depressive state years ago and he was i made sure to hire one who was a union so i would document my dreams and say here's what i had a dream about and um it just became astonishing to me that my dreams were trying to tell me things and from an evolutionary standpoint it made sense to me that your body wouldn't just present you fuzz like a tv screen that dreams would have an evolutionary function where you're able to draw on the lessons of the past and you could call that the collective unconscious you could call that the collective unconscious you could call that the collective unconscious the holy spirit of god you could call that transcendent reality it doesn't matter but there seems to be something to dreams i'm convinced of it because i still document my dreams to this day and when things are happening in my life the dream will be telling me like here's where you're at this is what you need to do and then we watch these dreams manifested in reality through a particularly good book or a particularly good movie and it's it's tugging on that same string where we're watching something and people have done this but you're watching something and you're not understanding what you're watching, but you know that you love it love it and you want to keep watching it. And it's because you're unconscious is telling you there's a lesson here for you. And I'm going to make you keep watching this until you understand what the lesson is. And the example I always give people is let me tell you a story. And the story is about a guy who's innocent, but he's sentenced to death. And, um, he had a collection of disciples that followed him around and he taught them beautiful things about the world and the fabric of reality and gave them appreciation for life. He, he, he died and was reborn or raised from the dead. Um, and, and, but also passed through to this world, um, through a woman's womb. And, uh, he's a fisher of men. So I'll tell people that story and I'll be like, what story am I telling you? Like, well, you're telling me the story of Christ. I was like, no, I'm telling you the redemption. It's the greatest movie of all time per, you know, IMDB per rotten tomatoes. It's a perfect movie. I'm not saying Stephen King wrote that book to retell the Christ story. What I'm saying is, is that story is a very base story, a story of the complete perfect man. Who's innocent of a crime. He's tried and killed for that crime, but reborn. And that's because in the collective unconscious and in our lives, we need to undergo those same things. Like I talked about before, you have to force nature and reality onto you and adapt to them and suffer a little death. Like even an ego death, like you had a system, the system failed. Now it's time for you to recalibrate that system and then be reborn into the world. And so I think all of those things are tightly coupled when it comes to dreams, when it comes to media that we consume stories that hit with us and we don't understand why. And, um, and great art is art that's made in the, and the artist doesn't even know the story that he's telling. He just is, can, is just has a compulsion to tell the story. And so they write it down and we don't know, like Stephen King is great author. I love consuming, his, his, his stuff, but he's more of a vessel to the unconscious than he is somebody who just thinks up great stories. Well, he wrote a lot of his stuff, basically unconscious, you know, some of his great works. Well, he doesn't even remember writing Cujo. Great movie. Yeah. Great, great book. I didn't read the book. It's fantastic. He was heavily drinking and doing drugs back in those days. Yeah. And he would just get blacked out and write these books. Yeah. And I think it was Carrie too, right? I'm not sure. He's got a bunch of his books where, you know, some of the best ones where he was just obliterated when he wrote. Yeah. And that was the way into, yeah. He's tapping into that. Get away from himself, get out of his own way and tap into that thing. Cause that's one of the things that creative people always talk about is getting out of your own way and, you know, finding that, that zone. Cujo drunker stupor. Cocaine and deuces. Yeah. Have you ever seen the movie Maximum Overdrive? No memory of writing the book at all. Yeah, I did. Oh, great book. King wrote it between 81 and 85 while deeply dependent on alcohol and cocaine. One of the best books. He also wrote books like The Shining, Pet Cemetery and The Tommy Knockers during that era while regularly consuming alcohol, cocaine, Valium, Xanax, marijuana, and even mouthwash. He's openly shared his memory on writing. Yeah. It's in the book. He often had to stuff cotton swabs in his nose to stop cocaine-induced nosebleeds from dripping onto his typewriter. Fuck yeah. Jeez. Meanwhile, some of his best stuff. Diving into unconsciousness and then like a hero coming back with something, a story. Have you ever heard of the hypnagogic state? No. Yes, I have, but I don't remember what that term is. I have a perplexity describing Salvador Dali's use of it because I've found a few people that did it, but I was getting really into dreams too and was having some weird sleep deprived visions. And I found that this is a thing that smart people, I guess, tapped into. Being half awake and sleep deprived. Well, I told you about the news radio writers. I've told you that before. Yeah. And so the writers on news radio, they didn't do drugs, but they would stay awake. So they'd stay awake till like three o'clock in the morning and then start writing the scripts. Wow. Yeah. And everybody was just like delirious. And they would write till like six, seven in the morning. We would show up to do the table read. And these guys were still awake from the night before. So they'd written and hilarious shit because they were just like, it's like they were high, but they weren't high. And they would write these ridiculous, absurd scenarios and really hilarious lines. And they were doing, they were purposely doing it under sleep deprivation to induce that state. Yeah. And that, that I think is a, you know, it's going to sound paradoxical to say it, but that's a heroic action, right? Going into the unconscious, a place where you're either depriving yourself, hurting yourself, but you're, you're, you're diving into the mud, the, the, the, the water and you're pulling out something great. Like it goes to what you said about fishing. Like Christ said, I'll make you fishers of men. And that means I'm going to dive into the water to the abyss. I'm going to pull out something of value and everyone gets to eat and be happy. And that's the, that's the hero story par excellence is people going into unsavory conditions, making sense of an environment, recalibrating themselves and then returning. That's always the story in the book, right? The hero gets defeated in the beginning. Um, he has to go through some type of transformational period, which often like star Wars, he's in the swamp or Thor Ragnarok. He goes to this upside down world where he has to fight the Hulk. Who's his friend or, um, any of these movies, they have that. And then there there's the return of the King where he sets order and makes everything right. And, uh, dreams. I just, it's one of the most valuable things to me. And one of the things that kind of sucks about it is, is, and Jung talks about this is once you start to really learn and live, like you try to become a better version of yourself, you'll actually end up dreaming less. But when you do dream, the dream will be more, um, dense and, but the layers of the dream get more, um, the dream is never just to solve one problem. It's usually, it's many problems stacked on top of themselves. When you learn more about yourself, when you start listening to the dreams and you start living, like you dream less. Well, not, not necessarily the better lesson is if you start listening to your dreams and you start orienting yourself based on the feedback that you're getting from the collective unconscious or the word of God or the voice of God, and you start setting your life in order and you start acting like a better person, the need for dreams is not as profound. Well, how does he make this determination? Does he do, is he running a study? Like how many people is he looking at? Is he dealing with his own personal experience? So I read this and I think it's called, um, this episode is brought to you by chime. And I know people don't usually get excited about banking, but chime is doing something different and it's worth paying attention to. In a recent survey, they ranked the number one choice for new checking accounts in America. 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Keep a no-co portable jump starter in your glove box and jumpstart your car yourself. No cables, no second vehicle, no waiting for help. It also works as a power bank, and has a built-in led flashlight. No-co the end of jumper cables use code Rogan 10 for 10% off select jump starters at N O dot C O. Uh, I think this was in the red book, but I'm not sure, or it might be, I can't remember which might be man in his symbols. It doesn't matter. But what, what, what he's basically saying is the dreams are there to provide you input and corrective measures and to let you know the, the, the archetype that you're acting out. And then once you start setting yourself in order, um, a good marker is you're no longer dreaming. In other words, you're doing the right thing now. So your dreams don't have to keep giving you this feedback. Um, Jamie can pressure test me cause I might be wrong and I don't want to say something wrong on this podcast of all. It's also, it's like this statement, this is taken from something he said. It's almost like that, but it's dreams balance the conscious mind. If you're waking mind is overly rigid, emotional, or arrogant, the dream will supply emotional, vulnerable, or contradictory imagery to restore equilibrium. Interesting self-portrayal of the psyche. Young saw that a dream was a spontaneous self-portrayal in symbolic form and of the actual situation in the unconscious. They show you where you truly stand psychologically without the egos filters. Yeah. Dreams, um, drive towards, um, wholeness and self-realization. So what, what I got from Jung was the more you start to become more of a whole person and you engage in the self-realization, the yet less utility, the dreams will have. And Therefore, you'll have less of them. So in other words, if you're doing well by yourself. I understand this, but I don't understand how you'd be able to study this unless it's all completely anecdotal from an individual. Because you're one person and your thought process, especially as a psychologist and a psychoanalyst, is going to be very different than most people. It's like to say that it's got to be people that always dream. Like there's people that have very vivid, lucid dreams and they're able to cultivate those. Yeah, and I would also say Jung falls out of the distribution of today what most people engage in is cognitive behavioral therapy or CBT. It's not what Jung was doing. Like Jung was far more radical and I wouldn't say the most pre-reviewed guy in the world. And it could be like anything else in life, a heuristic that doesn't necessarily the right way. And the reason I say that is because heuristic is something that's not the right way to do something, but it works for you. It's the right way to do things for you. And it just might be a useful heuristic. To me, but it certainly I can think of just, you know, a dream even I had last week where I wrote it down and went back to it the next day because I woke up at like four in the morning. I wrote it all down, woke up the next day and looked at it and it was like smacking me in the face like what the dream was telling me. What was that? Is it personal? I mean, I can talk at it at a high general level, but it is personal. Problems with legal. With some legal stuff. And, you know, I'm almost through it, but it's taken a toll on me for about a couple of years. And we got some resolution that was some of what I wanted to see and some of what I didn't want to see. And that night I went to bed pretty angry. And then I had a dream where I was on a train and there were these people that were like rendezvous people all over the train. And they were like, you know, biker looking guys, kind of rough. And they were making fun of me. Or they were telling me I wasn't shit. And then some of them would challenge me to things. And then in the dream, I met a woman and I was like, hey, I really don't know what's going on in this dream. Like, or I'm not in this dream in this in this place. Like, can you help me out? And she was like, well, you kind of have to learn what's going on here on your own. And so at one point, a bunch of gunshots came from the outside of the train. And I grabbed her like as the guns were shooting. And I put myself in between her and the gunshots where they're coming from. And then she said. When we got up and like the gun stopped firing, she's like, OK, I can help you out some here. And she started telling me things about this, this, this train world that I was in. And then a guy came and challenged me whose name was also Bill. But he looked like old, like an old bearded guy, like an old, like biker beard guy. And we started fighting and I put him in Americana. And which, you know, anybody who knows how to fight shouldn't succumb to an Americana. What are you talking about? Oh, I'm saying like. You know, I'm fighting like a blue belt. I try to hit him with, you know, a basic jujitsu move. He's going to fuck my world up. Oh, I don't know about that. Well, Andy would. Guys that Gordon would. Maybe a high level black belt. Well, I don't know. It just seems. People get caught in Americanas all the time. Maybe. It's a legit move. You know more of this than I do. But I put him in an Americana and I ended up. Not that this is possible, but I ended up compound fracturing his elbow. Happens all the time. And he didn't quit. And the woman told me as I was fighting. She's like, not only does he have to say, uncle, you have to accept that he is submitted before it's over. And so he's like, I'm not done. And I was like, oh, my God. So we keep rolling. And he tackles me and I get into a guard and I and I put him in an arm bar and I break his arm with an arm bar. His other arm. And then he's like, OK, I submit. And then she's like, now tell him you accept his submission. And so I was like, I accept your submission. And then. And then later in. The dream. Like I get off this train. This is a crazy fucking. Yeah. And I wrote it all down. I can show you it on my phone when we get out of here because I woke up at 4 a.m. And wrote it all down. And then I got out of the dream and I ran into my wife. My wife said, I'm going to get on the train as well. And I feel like I need to go and test myself or get into the world. And I was like, baby, don't don't do that. Don't get on the train. It's not a good place to be. It's it's horrible. Don't do it. And she's like, I feel like I need to do it. And then I woke up. So the dream, like I immediately knew just from like the self-study and reading these things, the train was a framework for the legal system. In other words, there are these there are these people that speak terms you don't understand. It's got a it's got its own direction and inertia and gravity. And you don't control where the train goes, just like you don't control where a courtroom or a judge or the justice system goes. You are subject to everything that's happening. And that train and they're going to say and do things that don't make sense to you and that you're going to need someone else. And like it said up there, a compensatory compensatory function for men is usually an anima character and anima relation is, you know, you I've heard you talk about this and what you're describing is anima integration. But essentially, men need to first become men. And once men become men, then they can start integrating anima. And what? An easy way to say this is a grandfather or a man needs to grow up and become hard. He needs to be disagreeable. He needs to fight. He needs to learn how to push himself and test himself and instill these masculine features into him. Once he's done that, then he can be the old grandfather that's got like a granddaughter on his lap or or he's emotional with a grandchild or he's starting to learn really more about his wife. But he first needs to learn himself. So he has to harden his masculine, his his. His masculine features before he integrates anima features. But anima features in movies or in books or in all of these things, it's usually a character like if you watch the movie Wolverine or not Wolverine, if you watch the Logan movie, he's got a young version of himself who's a woman who has no ability to speak. So she lacks logos. She lacks an ability to express herself in the world. And as she starts to integrate and get closer to Logan, who's this masculine. She finally adopts logos and starts to speak towards the end of the movie and even starts speaking English. And so and because they're the same person, she's a clone of him. You would say that's the anima part of Logan that he needs to integrate before he can defeat the bad guy in the end of the movie. So this anima character on this train who is is, you know, a particularly good lawyer or someone who understands this world that I don't understand. And I need to show them something like protecting her. From the gunfire before she starts telling me about this world and how it works. In other words, I have to I have to use that compensatory relating function in order to understand this train that I'm on that I've got really no control over and that the stakes of this fight were far bigger than I ever thought they were. And that the person that I'm fighting, which is not the person I'm fighting in court or not the person I'm fighting in life was actually me. And there's a part of me that I was experiencing that dream who's not willing to give the fight up. He will. Fight until his he's gotten a Americana until he's got a broken arm until he's got an ankle lock and he can't walk anymore. My dream was warning me about taking this to the end. And if you take this to the end, it could be bad or it could be good. We don't know. Well, it can consume your life. It could consume. More important. Yes. And consume millions of dollars and consume everything else. And so my dream was readying me and saying, look, you're at a threshold where you have to where you have to open yourself up to parts and really learn the justice. System and really learn these things or you're not going to be ready for the fight. And the fight's not against the other guy. The fight's actually about your against yourself. And and so that that that that's the sense. That's the nexus of the dream. The dream is not telling me about the future. It's telling me where I am at this point in time. So it's very useful to me. These things. And we see them reflected in media. Like I said, in that Logan movie I talked about, he actually fights himself and that himself that he fights the clone. Have you seen the movie? No, he's got no logos. He can't speak. And he and this daughter or this clone of him has no logos and he cannot speak. And they're moving from south of the border, which is this, like, chaotic desert wasteland up into North Dakota, actually, in the movie, which is this like Garden of Eden type of place. And it's it's just like buddy travel story across this place where he has to integrate these parts of himself in order to finally defeat his shadow self, which is a union thing, which is this other Wolverine with no. Ability to speak who's this animalistic version of himself and only then in the end of the movie, he's, you know, it's really the story of Moses. But in the end of the movie, he's literally hung on a tree and killed by his own shadow self and then only then can this new version of him, this animate integrated version of him go north into Canada and live freely. So it's it's one of the highest grossing Marvel movies of all time. I think it made over a billion dollars. But it's telling. A very old story in that old story that it's telling is an ascent of a mountain like Moses to go up and get the new law. But it's also an ascent of the mountain to that that will ultimately lead to your crucifixion. But it will save everyone else that you love. It's like, you know, the the Jews in the wasteland. It's this death and rebirth story that it speaks to a very deep level in people. And even as engineering minded as I am and as scientifically minded as I am, I can't dispense with something when and it's as useful as it is, there's just something there that keeps scratching at me and I can't let it go. And it's part of my addictive personality. Like I said, I've consumed like Eric Neumann and Carl Jung and Freud and Adler and all of these great authors who wrote about all of this, the perseverance of the human soul under extraordinary circumstances. You can't dispatch with these things because it got these people to where we are today. And there seems to be some truth there. So, well, it's undefinable and it's very strange. Whatever the dream state is, there's something going on there that's very odd. Very, very odd. And I don't dismiss it. I don't understand it. I don't dismiss it. But I'm very wary of people who are clearly defining it, like mapping the territory. Yeah. I don't know if you have the ability to do that. And I think people want to define things that are undefinable because it gives them comfort. For sure. That there's a structure to things that, you know, they can say, oh, I get it now. I don't know if you're ever going to get it. I think it's the same thing that you get when you hear from people. When I was 16, it was the only time I've ever done drugs in my whole entire life. And I can now say this, that I'm out of the military. That's outrageous. I've never done anything. But when I was a child. Meanwhile, you're doing drugs right now? Right, nicotine. When I was a child, some friends gave me mushrooms when I was like 16. And it was a crazy experience. And it also, I won't tell the story because we've already done this once, but it also led me to an updating of my system and an understanding of who I am. How come you never did it again? I was in the military. How come you don't do it now? A security clearance. I don't know. I just, I'm not saying I wouldn't. All I'm saying is I'm so hyper-focused on what I'm doing now that I don't, there'll be a time and a utility for it. There'll be a time and place for it. And I do think, I've talked to lots of veterans, other guys who have done like the, they go to South America and they do. Ibogaine. Ibogaine. Yeah. And I talked to one guy who said he had a ton of antidepressants and medication and stuff. And he went down there and did that. And when he got back, he threw it all away and he was better afterwards. So there's definitely value there. But again, that's that pattern of diving into unconsciousness and diving into this world that will judge you and some people come back better. Some people come back broken. Some people overcook the goose. I'm not sure. I think I would probably do it one day. I'm just so busy building. I would worry. I also worry about my mind. Like I also know I would never do like a cocaine or I would never do like some of these other drugs because I'm really already highly strung and I'm already hyper-focused on things. Yeah, that's why I've avoided Adderall. Even though it's very interesting to me. I would never be able to get near. I mean, I do nicotine. I might want to try it once. I do nicotine because it helps me think. It's the only thing that can make me focus. Like when I, I don't do too many a day, but when I do them, it's usually when I'm trying to think about a problem or like zero in on something. Whereas other people, it like makes them feel like giddy or high or whatever. I get no feeling from this other than like it just. Yeah, it's a definite nootropic. Makes the world focus in. And I had, you know, when I was in Iraq on my second tour to Iraq, I started doing like mint skull because we'd convoy like a long ways and there wasn't anything to do. It's not like we had a turtle box or a Bluetooth speaker in the Humvee. You just had six hours of driving in front of you. So I'm going to throw a skull in just like dip mint skull. And but then I started brushing my gums away, so I quit. And then when this stuff came out, I was like, oh, I get to get the nicotine without the without brushing my gums away. Sign me up. Yeah, it's very addictive to people. It's interesting. It's it's this stuff. These pouches have come out of nowhere. I get off of them every once in a while. Like I'll switch to there's this one that I use that's got no nicotine in it. Ultras. Ultras. Yeah. So I'll just do like that for like two or three weeks. Those are great. And then that's just nootropics. Yeah. And so I'm not, you know, wired up like the first day is always like this kind of sucks. Like I want one. I don't have like the come down that most people have where I'm like I'm going to kill someone if I don't need one right now. Yeah, that's what I do get. I do get disagreeable. I don't. I think it's biological, man. I can just stop taking them. I took them like when I was on vacation. I took off 10 days and no problem at all. And I do that all the time. I take three, four days off. It doesn't irritate me. But I think that's biological. I think some people have that weird thing and some people don't. And some people, it gets in their system to the point where they need it all the time and some people don't. I've heard horror stories of people. I've also heard horror stories of people with other stuff that I find really troubling, like Kratom. Kratom's a big one. What is that? I'm sorry. That's that weird fucking, it's kind of an opiate and it's everywhere. It's in those live free drinks and there's a lot of different, like they banned the synthetic version of it from, like gas stations now. People are buying this stuff in convenience stores and weird sketchy stores. And it's an opiate? Yeah, man. That you can buy in a grocery store or a convenience store? You can get it from a leaf, right? It's from a plant called the Kratom leaf. I don't know what the plant is. But this stuff has become very popular. And I've heard horror stories of people going to like, you know, a quote unquote health food store, like a juice shop, and they have these little live free drinks. They go, oh, this must be healthy. It's in this place. And you drink it and you're fucking vomiting. And it's like, you feel like you're on opiates. Wow. I've not even ever heard of this. Yeah. It's interesting because there was a guy that he had some real problems with opiates. And then he started telling me that he got off opiates, got clean. And then he was telling me about Kratom, that he takes Kratom. And I say, what is this stuff? And he said, well, at low doses, it acts almost like a stimulant, like caffeine. And then at higher doses, it more relaxes you. And I'm like, OK. Like, how much do you take? So he told me, well, you know, if you want to take a couple of them, like before a podcast or something, try it. And I did. And I was like, hmm, this is kind of interesting. I took a couple pills. I was like, it is. It's kind of like a little stimulant. No big deal. And then I said, how much do you take? And he said, well, before I work out, I take 10. So I said, what? I go, you take 10. I go, what does that feel like? He goes, I don't have a problem. I don't have a problem with it at all. So I took 10. And I called him up. And I said, hey, man. I go, you're high. I go, you're getting high. This is, you're not sober. Like, this is not a sober thing. I'm high as fuck right now. It was a weird high. Because it was a high that didn't seem to affect my motor skills. So it was at the studio I did it. So I worked out. I have no problem working out. It didn't affect my cardio. It didn't affect my ability to lift weights. It didn't affect anything. And then I was playing pool. It didn't affect my ability to play pool either. It didn't, like, fuck with my motor skills. Like, alcohol will. What do you feel like when you're on it? Like, what are you feeling? Oh, so it's weird. It's a weird high. But whatever it is, it's a high. I was like, dude, you're high as fuck. If you're taking 10 of these, like, you're not sober. And, you know, I think there's a bunch of people that have had problems with opiates that don't recognize that this takes them down that same road. And then I know. A lot of people that are heavily addicted to Kratom and can't get off of it. Wow. Like friends. I have one good friend who takes it every day. He drinks bottles of these things. And he's drinking, like, six a day. I was like, fuck, dude. That's crazy. Traditional banks are making it harder than ever to secure a small business loan. That's why thousands of business owners trust Cardiff for same-day funding. With over two decades of expertise, business owners keep voting Cardiff America's favorite small business land. Apply now for up to $500,000 in same-day business funding at cardiff.co slash rogan. Again, that's cardiff.co slash rogan. Cardiff. Borrow better. This episode is brought to you by the Mosquito Bowl. Here's a story that's pretty incredible. After Pearl Harbor, four of the best college football players in America walk away from promising NFL careers to enlist in the Marines and fight in World War II. And the craziest part? It's a true story. These guys had their whole lives ahead of them, but traded the glory of the gridiron for the brutal reality of combat where the stakes were life and death. Directed by Pete Berg, the guy behind Friday Night Lights, and starring Nicholas Galetzin, Bill Skarsgård, Ray Nicholson, and Tom Francis. The Mosquito Bowl. In theaters October 30th. I'm so afraid of drugs. Just because I come from. I'm a family of, not to smite my own. I love my family, but just drug addicts and alcoholics. Many people do. I mean, it's nothing to be ashamed of. It's normal. I think I'm the only one who's not been to jail or rehab. That's crazy. And I've got two sisters that died from overdoses and a brother that killed himself. Oh my God. Fuck. Yeah, two years ago or three years ago, my sister Janie died. Maybe even longer, four years ago. And then my sister Heather, who was most like me in the family. In other words, like we. We both wanted to get out of North Dakota. And she married into a great family, like one of the best families I've ever seen, and then got on antidepressants. And then I believe when she got off the antidepressants, it was really rough, like a really rough time for her. And she got addicted to methamphetamines and then ended up leaving her family and going up to like Fort McMurray, Alberta. And she was up there for like seven years and wouldn't talk to any of us. And her and I were very close growing up. We were the most alike and that we just wanted to leave North Dakota and see the world and do things. And so while she was up there, she was at like a rehab facility and this wacky fucking Canadian America's top hat place. They would give them meth once a week at the facility. Yeah. And so she either stored up her meth, like didn't do it one week and kept it. Yeah. And faked it or got some from someone else, but did like a critical amount of meth and killed herself at the facility. And they would give you meth? They were giving it. Why were they giving you meth? Jamie, you can look this up, but there's a term for it. And I don't remember what it was because I asked the same question because her brother or my brother, ex-brother-in-law, her husband, Rick, told me. And I was like, why are they giving it to people? And he's like, well, they wanted them doing it like in a clean, safe environment instead of like out on the streets. And I'm like, how about we just get them off of that shit? Like, can we all agree that's bad? Yeah, what a strange strategy. This is the strategy that they employ in a lot of these cities, right, where they give people access to drugs that are safe and they also give them clean needles and crack pipes. This is something that you see particularly on the West Coast. It's a very common thing in the Pacific Northwest. There's a bunch of these places that will give people, they give them money, they'll give you drugs and they'll give you needles. And the idea is that you're providing them with safe access. Well, it killed my sister. Well, she killed herself. But I'm saying, you know, my family is just the story, not the story of it. There's good people in my family, very good people that I love very much. I'm not trying to smite my own, but we have a problem with addiction. Dude, a lot of people have a problem with addiction, whether they believe it or not. You know, I think addiction is a normal part of human behavior. And I think there's probably. An evolutionary aspect to that. I think addiction is what allows people to get very focused on certain things like like to become a good hunter. What do you have to do? We have to be very addicted to the idea of hunting. Yeah. You know, and I think that same sort of pathway can be very destructive and it can be very destructive. Like you can get addicted to gambling, which I've seen a lot of people get addicted to gambling. Or you can get addicted to. Drugs and alcohol. You know, there's this guy that I knew that was a world class pool player, like one of the best in the world. And he hurt his back in a car accident and then become addicted to pills. And my friend Tommy said this best. He said the same thing that made him great at pool made him addicted to those fucking pills. Like he couldn't put them down. He was just invested in those pills. He wanted to take them all the time. And he died of a drug overdose young. And this was a guy that never drank, never smoked, was clean, sober, and was just his number one focus. Was just being the best pool player in the world. And I think that thing that we all have, especially some people have in spades, I have it, is I become very addicted to things. Yeah, me too. It's very focused on things where it consumes me. Golf did that to me. I don't golf anymore, but I got to where I was like a six handicap, which is a fairly good golfer. What are you, Jimmy? That's better than me. How about it? Uh, 14, 15. So I just shot a play. I had played for the first time in a few months the other day and just shot like 12 over, which is like a good golfer. But there was a point when I lived in Hawaii that I was like, you know, I shot a couple of par rounds, like one or two over. And I did this solely because somebody told me I was too much of a fucking gorilla and I'd never be good at it. That was the sole reason. Every time I was practicing, I'm like, I'm going to show that motherfucker. I'm going to show him. That's so ridiculous. I'm going to beat it. And I like devoted my whole life to it. And then when I got rich. Yeah. When I got really good and I was better than most people I ran into, I lost all interest. I hardly ever do it now. Really? Hardly ever do it. It's how am I? That's, it's really weird. It's happened to me a couple of times in life where I would go down a road of addiction. Just fortunately, the addictions were in like positive kind of, you know, positive control loops where I would get into something hard. And then once I felt like I had a certain level of mastery, I'd move on to something else. Well, that's probably the part of you that wants to learn something from scratch again to go through that same process. Yeah. Which is, that's the most important part. I think the most difficult part is the beginning. The becoming a beginner at things, I think is very beneficial. The white belt. Yeah. It's very beneficial to you to learn that there's something that, oh my God, I know nothing about this. I'm terrible at this. I have so much room to grow. Yeah. Whereas something that you've been doing for a long, long time, it, it, you know, it's not going to be the same. You know, it's, it becomes more of like fine tuning and these slow incremental improvements rather than understanding this, this like enormous sea of information that you're not, you don't have access to yet. Yeah. With golf, it was like, I'm hitting the ball straight, moving on. That's nuts. Uh, like next thing, um, bow hunting is though, is something I haven't exhausted and obviously technology is something I haven't exhausted. Well, I think bow hunting is so variable too. There's so many different. I think if every shot was 20 yards and every animal stood still, it would be boring. You'd get bored of it. Well, I don't think you'd get bored of it, but it wouldn't have the same appeal that it has where it's completely chaotic. One of you doesn't even know the game you're playing. That's the animal, you know, it's, it's playing a different game. It's game is survival. It's looking for predators and you are a predator, but it doesn't understand how you're doing it. And your, your, your thing is like to get to a position where you can execute, execute. A shot and do it right. And then the amount of time that you have to put into it, I think is the real thing for me. It's like the understanding that, look, if I take a few days off of archery and I go and shoot, my first few shots are a little shaky. A lot of times I'll still, you know, hit the 10 ring at 60 yards with, you know, a few days off, but it feels a little odd. It feels, it doesn't feel a hundred percent locked in. And then I have to do it again. So I'm locked in. And if I had to shoot an animal like that, like if I had to shoot, if I had a very difficult shot on an elk at like 70 yards and I hadn't shot a bow in two months, I would not take it. I wouldn't be able to. Right. Which is nuts. Right. I've, I've shot thousands of arrows at 70 yards effectively in a lethal zone. Yeah. And yet I wouldn't be confident that I could do it where there's a lot of other things that I would be very confident that I could do if I hadn't done in months. Right. It's weird. It is weird. And I think because of that, because it's such an engrossing and involving process, the process of archery in particular, and then bow hunting at the extreme level of it. I think there's two different extreme levels of archery. There's target archery, which I think is extreme mentally, but it's still a stable static shot, static target versus bow hunting, which is non-static moving, enormous animals and all their senses and all the different things that are involved. Wind. Wind, all the factors, elevation, changes. There's a lot of stuff going on. They're moving. There's a lot of things happening that you never can master it. There's no mastery. You can get more effective than you used to be. And there's different ways to do it. Mm-hmm. Like I've got, like I'm a very analytically mind bow hunter. I like breaking everything down, understanding the thermals, rise and fall of the sun, first light, last light. What are these thermals going to do on this hill? Where's this buck coming from? Where's the doe bedding? Where are the scrapes? What's outside of that doe bedding? How do I get downwind of them? How do I avoid the parking lots? How do I do all of these things? And I've got this other buddy. His name is Johnny Stewart, who is just a deer. Like I'll go scouting with him. This guy kills two or three big bucks every year. And you would think this guy must have like a system. And he's just like, this feels like a place where there are deer. I'm like, well, John, what are you talking about right now? He's like, I don't know, Bill, but like just the way this place looks to me. Well, it's pattern recognition too, right? Yeah. But he's pulling it. He's pulling it from a place where he can't cite to you what's going on. Right. Whereas when I walk into a spot, I'm like, well, I've got three intersecting trails that come here. There's doe bedding over here. I've got two scrapes here. The thermals come up at 830. So I want to wait for the thermal switch before I get into my stand. Otherwise, my scent is going to paint this side of the mountain. And he's just like, this looks good. It's interesting that there's people that are system oriented. And then there's other people that are instinctive. Yeah. That's a big factor. And striking. So in striking, one of the things that I find interesting is some people who are great strikers and by strikers, I'm talking about martial arts. Yeah. Some people have a system and they're really good at like showing their system and teaching their system. And other people can't quite tell you what they're doing. Right. They just know how to do it. They know how to, they know how to like do something at varying speeds in order to fuck with someone's perceptions, their timing and reads. Yeah. And they just. do it instinctively, and it's just they've done it so much many times they just know what they're doing, but they can't teach it. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's so strange, especially when you talk to people who are at that very high level. Like I think, you know, but I've become pretty good friends with George St. Pierre and when you, him and I bear hunted last year together and I spent basically a week with him and I didn't do jujitsu. I did mixed martial arts in the military or I did combatives. We called it in the military for seven, eight years. So it was a little different. Like you would learn the basics, but then it would get into, all right, now that you've got him in this position, you can stab him or now that you're in this position, you can break contact or like, so there was a combat nexus to it that wasn't strictly jujitsu. There was more to it. And, um, but like talking to him and then just like messing around or seeing like how he applies pressure or what he's doing or how he's a great wrestler and how he integrates these other things. It's just when you deal with, or like with Gordon, it's like you're at a level that's just, I couldn't ever get there even if I hope to. And even if you could explain to me what's like, in other words, Gordon could pin me in a position and say, here's what you got to do. I still can't do it. You know what I'm saying? Like to him, to him. Um, and so they're just at such a level that even if they are able to articulate it to you, you're still not getting there because you don't have everything that it takes to bridge the gap from here to there. Well, Gordon's very systematic, you know, and it comes from, his, uh, teaching under Donaher, like Donaher, John Donaher, who's, I think the great mastermind of jujitsu. He has a very specific systems and he breaks things down. Like they're very technique oriented. And then there's, there's things that you just learn from over the course of training. There's the flow of it all that you learn from it. But Gordon is like a great example of someone who's an amazing teacher as well as an amazing jujitsu competitor, because like his, uh, um, a big part of his income comes from his, uh, instructionals selling instructionals because they're so good. Yeah. He, I mean, the thing that's interesting to me about Donaher is like, he's almost like a first principles jujitsu guy. Like when you hear him talk, like he breaks things down to like very elemental levels where it's like, what is the point of jujitsu? What are you doing with jujitsu? Like, what are you trying to establish? And it's like, I'm not even thinking about these things, but he's like, cause I think his background's in philosophy, right? Or something like that. Yeah. Columbia. Yeah. He was, he was a professor. That's crazy. That transition to Lisa, was he a professor or was he, it was definitely, it was a PhD, I believe. And then, uh, started doing jujitsu because he was a bouncer and, um, wanted to learn how to fight. So I probably should learn how to fight. Cause he was a power lifter at one point in time and a rugby player also. And then became obsessed and, you know, became the greatest coach of all time. And he's like a character from a film. Yeah. Really? It doesn't, it doesn't exist in real life because he's the guy who wears a rash guard every day. Everywhere he goes. I saw pictures of him at a wedding. You just took the words out of my mouth. He's a, I mean, but he's a real eccentric. It's not like he's trying to be eccentric. It's like he's either this or he's a bad guy in a Bond movie. Okay. So it's a six degree black belt, uh, arrived in the United States in 91 to study at Columbia University's philosophy PhD program. After arriving in New York, Donner was introduced to Brazilian jujitsu, continued training at the academy, became teaching classes as well, while Gracie, uh, Henzo Gracie was traveling for competition. So did he finish his education and did he start teaching PhD? Yeah. Master's degree in philosophy and was pursuing a PhD. Okay. And so that's when he became obsessed. And so while he was attending the university, he worked as a bouncer in various Manhattan nightclubs. So I've elevated his education, but a little bit, I thought he was teaching, but he, uh, when he started teaching jujitsu, he was like sleeping on the mats. Like he's, he was there all day long every day, addictive personality, not just that, but a man who is obsessed with, uh, do you know the Japanese term Kaizen? I've heard you talk about it. Yeah. Kaizen is you continue to improve on one thing constantly where it's this never ending cycle of improvement. And this is his philosophy that applies to jujitsu. This is this continual cycle of improvement. You know, there's a, there's certain applications that people have seen, like the, the application of Kaizen in engineering, for example, like a good example is like they take a specific platform and continue to work on like a good example is the Nissan GTR. Are you aware of the Nissan GTR? Yes. Okay. So Nissan GTR is one of the best examples of that where it is essentially the same car for 20 plus years. And they, they don't change the body shape. They don't change the geometry. They don't change the way it's all wheel drive sports car. But what they do is continue to refine it to the point where it was just fucking dialed, tweaking it, just constantly improving it and just dialing it and dialing it further, further, further, further. And if you get like a 2025, I think it was 2025 or 2026 was the last year they made the GTR and you compare it to like a one that was released in the 19. God, when was the first GTR? Was it 2000? I think it was like late nineties, I thought, but maybe early 2000s. It might be early 2000s. I think it's in the 2000s, but it almost looks the same, but there's so much better. And that's, that's the same with everything. I mean, Kaizen as applied to mixed martial arts as a whole, like if you looked at mixed martial arts as a whole, all of these individuals that are competing in it and all these individuals that are pursuing it and teaching it and studying it, they're essentially doing it in a way that's different. They're doing that. They're taking this thing that used to be this chaotic thing where, you know, there was certain strategies that people had, you know, one guy was a brawler, the other guy was a grappler, get you down on the ground, punch you in the face a bunch of times. And then they're expanding the possibilities to this like insane level where you're seeing people now that are like on the Dana White contender series that would be absolute world champions in 1994. And these guys are like, oh, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. And these guys haven't even entered the UFC yet. Right. You know, because the level of the game, this constant pursuit of excellence and then this competition, this boiling pot of competition where you have, I mean, how many MMA athletes are there worldwide now? Who knows? It's got to be in the hundreds of thousands of elite MMA athletes. When I say elite, I mean like guys who can fight professionally. I would say there's probably, I mean, they might not all be fighting professionally yet, but they're at that level when you introduce amateurs and you think about how many thousands and thousands and thousands of gyms there are. And out of those gyms, how many people have like people that are at a very high level? Fuck, it's crazy. So this is a new thing. Like I say this all the time, but it really is accurate. Martial arts have evolved more in the last 33 years than they have in the last 33,000 years. And that is true. Because from the time the UFC came about in 1994 to 1993, I mean, the Brazilians were way ahead. The Brazilians were way, the Gracie family in particular were way ahead of the curve. They were pursuing this and looking into this in the 1940s and 50s. Like Elio Gracie was having mixed martial arts competitions in the 1940s. They were having, they called it Valley Tudor, was anything goes. And they were having fights in the ring in front of large groups of people long before the UFC was ever around. Hicks and Gracie famously had them when he was 18 years old, when he became the champion of the family. I mean, he was, he was defeating much larger people when he was 18. Yeah. I remember watching that back in the day too. Like peak UFC, not peak, but it's big now. I still go to it now, but watching like GSP in his heyday back in the day and stuff like that is just. Well, that was peak emergence. Peak emergence. Was like 2005 on. So 2005 was the ultimate fighter. And it's very rare when one moment really sort of defines the growth of a sport, but you can find that in MMA. And in that one moment was the Stefan Bonner, Forrest Griffin fight in the finals of the ultimate fighter on Spike TV. Got millions and millions of people watching it. Like more than anything anybody had ever watched on Spike TV before. And it was just because it was so good. It was so crazy. And you see the rise of people watching it. They could, they could track the ratings in real time. So people were calling their friends going, dude, you got to fucking watch this. Turn on Spike TV. This is crazy. And they were watching it. And it, it changed the entire course of martial arts forever. That, that one fight. Yeah. I mean, for me, the one, my watershed moment was like GSP bisping, like watching, um, uh, when GSP went up a weight class and what year was that? Um, 2017 or somewhere around there. Yeah. Went up to middleweight. Yeah. But for me, it was just like, okay, now I'm obsessed. Cause this guy's just done. So like, I thought I love GSP. I know him, but I didn't think that I didn't know him at the time. I just thought, I don't know, this is going to be tough. Um, just to watch somebody go up another weight class and go and win in this. Like I just, it was amazing. It was by the way, GSP is not even a big welterweight, you know, GSP. When you look at welterweights today, GSP is the size of a large middleweight or excuse me, a large lightweight today, a large 155 pounder today. I think he is in the eighties, maybe in the, maybe even in the nineties. Well, depending on how much he's weightlifting. and what he's doing. I thought he was less, but actually. He's definitely heavier than that, but in his prime, he would hover around the high 190s and then cut down to 170. Yeah, but he was a beast in that fight, too. He looked like such a beast. There's guys now, like, do you follow closely, like, top contenders now? Not closely. Not like I should, no. Not as closely as I should. I mean, I'll watch the big events, there's, like, you know. There's this cat, Michael Morales. He's one of the scariest guys in the 170-pound division. He's a fucking monster. Like, a really, really dangerous guy, and he's enormous. He gets well over 220. Well over 220 and gets down to 170. And just cuts at the last minute? No, he cuts it slowly over time, but then he rehydrates and reinflates, and when you see him inside the octagon, you're like, how the fuck? And I don't know how many times he can do that. So that is essentially. That's tough on the body. Very. Brutal on the kidneys. It is essentially a death's door event. You're getting to death's door. You're getting to death's door 24 hours before you have to fight in a cage. And then you're rehydrating yourself and replenishing yourself. Not to 100%, by the way. No, you can't. You're not. Yeah. There's no way. So this is how big Morales is. He's fucking enormous, dude. And he's so powerful. He's absolutely huge for the weight class. When you see him, he looks like a light heavyweight. He really does. Because he is. I mean, he's basically, like, 220 pounds now. He looks like a big middleweight when he's in there. Jesus. But yet, somehow or another, he makes it to 120. And he's undefeated. And not just undefeated in the UFC. He's starching people. And he's a wrestler who very rarely wrestles. And he has a judo background. Very rarely uses that. It's kind of like Gaethje, right? Gaethje? Justin Gaethje? Yeah. In a way. But this guy is much bigger and just a real seek-and-destroy welterweight. And one of the absolute top contenders. Terrifying human. Yeah, I just meant that Gaethje was a really good wrestler. Yeah. You hardly ever see him wrestling. Right, right. Well, it takes a lot of energy to wrestle people. That's part of the problem. In order to grapple and constantly shoot and taking people down, it's one of the most energy-intensive aspects of MMA. Like, shooting on someone, you're exploding. A lot of energy. And then you're wrestling with them. So you're grappling with all their strength, using technique and leverage, and then you have to hoist their body up in the air and slam them to the ground. And get that takedown. And you can only do that so many times, which is one of the reasons why Marab is so, so fucking extraordinary. Is the fact that that guy can do that full blast for five rounds. It's insane. His cardio should be studied in a fucking laboratory. Because he's a real freak. Yeah. He's a real freak. I bet. But very few people have that ability. He breaks world-class fighters. Like, you know, Umar Nurmagomedov. Like, when he fought him. Like, he almost couldn't believe that this guy was still doing this, like, deep into the fifth round. Like, it was just so crazy. His work output. And most people don't have that. So most people, when they're really good grapplers, they develop a style that's like a mix of grappling and striking. Because there's time. Even Khabib. Like, one of the rounds with Conor McGregor, he never shot for a takedown. Yeah. It's the round that Conor won. And it's because he just chose to stand. Because he had to, like, realize, like, okay, I burned so much energy in the first couple rounds going after this guy, taking him down, smashing him. Like, I can't keep this up. I can't keep this up. I have to take a round where I don't burn off as much energy and let my body recover a bit. Yeah, the White House fight. I watched that from my cabin out in North Dakota. Whew. The event at the White House. So I was alone. I've shown you pictures. The cabin out in the middle of nowhere. It was my father's cabin that I bought back in the family, like, four years ago. Rebuilt it from the ground up. And I was like, I'm in the perfect place to watch this fight. I was so hyped up, like, watching the whole thing. Like, my son was coming downstairs. I was like, not now. I'm watching the fight. Like, me? I'm alone watching the fight. I was cheering. It was crazy. I just remember watching Ilya talk. I think he was on your podcast, wasn't he? Saying he was just going to decimate Gaethje. Yeah. And that was. Well, he thought it was going to be easy. And I said, man, I don't know how you could think it. And a lot of people were saying to me, like, when I was saying, Justin has a huge chance. And they would go, oh, you're hyping this fight up. I know what you do. Like, Ari Shaffir accused me of that. He's like, oh, I know what you're doing. The guy who's going to lose, you're saying he has a chance. I go, no, he has a real fucking chance. He's insanely durable. He's extremely experienced in very high-level competition against world-class fighters. And he's been in the deep trenches where you're in hell. Like, if you're in a war, like the wars that he had, like with Dustin Poirier, he had a war. He had that war with Max Holloway. He's been in those trench wars where it's four and five rounds. You've been beaten up for fucking three rounds. Your body's broken. And you're exhausted. And yet you have to persevere and press on. He's a freak of nature. He's amazing. So Tyler from Archery Country is a good friend of mine. We were in Vegas for the paddy fight with Gaetje that you were gracious enough to invite me to. And I don't gamble. But we were leaving a casino. We were there for some reason. And I think I had like 100 bucks in my pocket. So Tyler and I were like, we're going to go back. We're going to go to the fight, I think. Actually, we were going to the fight. So I sat down at like a three-card poker table. And I was like, it's an easy game. Let's just play. Like, I got 100 bucks. Let's just do this. So I ended up getting up to like $1,000 at this three-card poker table with Tyler. So I was like, dude, like, let's just leave. Like, we've got the money. Like, let's just get out of here. So we're walking out of the casino. And he says, hey, why don't we put money on the Gaetje fight tonight against Pimblitt? And I was like, OK. So I had to like download an app. And we went to the thing and like placed the bet at the place. And we both were like, we got to bet on Justin. Like, it's got to go this way. It's like, you know, because he was the underdog. He was? Yeah, he was the underdog for sure. Because I got paid. I put down $500 or something like that. Wow, that's crazy. Can you certify that? But I'm 99% sure because I got a big payday on it. I made like, I think I got $2,000 or maybe $1,500 or something like that. Why did you not know why he would be the underdog? Yeah, there it is. Paddy Pimblitt was a favorite and Justin Gaetje is the underdog. Wow. Yeah, so we put. Minus $238. That's crazy. So we. We put that $500 apiece that we won playing three card, that I won playing three card poker on Justin. Wow. And then we got paid and it was in like my DraftKings account or whatever, wherever the money got deposited. I didn't even know how to get to the money. I just had $1,500 there. So at the White House fight, I called Tyler that night, that day of, and I said, dude, I'm just going to put all of this money back on Justin again. And he's like, oh, I already took my money out. I should have done that. And I was like, I mean, it was $100 and now it's $1,500. So I put it all on the, and he was the underdog again for the Ilya fight. Yeah. So it ended up being like 6K. Wow. That I turned from $100 into like 6K and then I took it out and used it to rebuild my house. So Justin, I owe Justin my, my upstairs. I paid for all the flooring upstairs from Justin's fists. That's a good way to gamble. Yeah. That's good. That's good, healthy gambling. Never do it again, but it was awesome. I mean, I had one run. Yeah. I'm very conflicted. About gambling because I've met a lot of gambling addicts. I know a lot of games because I come from the pool world, you know, and the pool world was filled with gambling addicts. That was my first real exposure to people that are addicted. They would go to off track betting before they ever got to the pool hall. And then they'd show up at the pool hall during the day. They'd have stories, the fucking horse. I bet on this horse. He didn't come in. They were all addicts. And then they will all be looking for action. They'd either, they'd play gin. There was guys that would play gin or they play poker. There was like a whole bunch of people. There was like a whole like elevated level where it was like seating and stuff where it was like above the pool tables where guys would hang out and have card games. And then they would gamble on pool games and everybody was just in action. It was in, everyone was in action. And part of me is like, oh, you know, gambling can be destructive. Right. But it wasn't for me. So why is that? So isn't it like, isn't it a personal control thing? Like, isn't it like recognizing what's detrimental to you and what's positive? Isn't that a bunch of? Aspects of life. Like I'm pro alcohol too, but I recognize that people could become alcoholics. Right. But isn't that also like a personal control thing? Yeah. Like, should you, shouldn't you know what you can do and what you can't do? And isn't the real thing learning how to control yourself? I mean, so I don't have any problem with gambling at all. And I know way too many people who enjoy it to ever like come out against gambling. But yet I have friends that are staunchly anti-gambling and they think that these gambling apps are terrible. And think these casinos are terrible and that we should outlaw all of it. And I'm like, man, you're just shoving underground. It's also, people have enjoyed that since the beginning of time. And then also coming from the world that I come from, coming from the pool world, gambling is a huge part of how you get good at pool. One of the things about pool is stakes. Like, you know, the term pool, it comes from pooling money together to gamble. No, I did not know that. Yeah. It's not called pool. It's called pocket billiards. Huh. And the original billiards game, well, there's a game that is also still played in a lot of Latin American countries, South Korea, they're really big on it, and it's called three cushion billiards. And three cushion billiards is a game that you play on a table that doesn't have any pockets. And what it is, is you have three balls, and the key is understanding geometry and force and spin and how it affects the rails. So the rails are all these rubber rails, and in three cushion billiards, you contact one one ball. And then you have to go three cushions, contact the second ball, and then the original ball. So you're contacting these three balls but also hitting three cushions. Huh. Yeah, or two balls but also hitting three cushions. So you can't just hit one ball into another ball. There is an old billiard game where they did that, but it was a very boring game. But this three-cushion game is a much more dynamic form of it. So that's billiards. And then there's pocket billiards. So pocket billiards is what people think of as pool. It's where you're shooting a ball into a hole. And there's six holes on the table. So pool comes from the term of pooling money together to gamble on pocket billiards. Yeah. So when you go to a pool hall, that's a gambling hall. That's what they were. And so in New York City at the turn of the century, the turn of the 20th century, I think there was some insane number of pool hallers. Just in New York City. I think it was over 1,000. Wow. Yep. And it was a lot of these guys, especially in the 1940s and guys coming home from the war. They didn't have families and it was a bachelor culture. And these guys, they didn't want to be a part of society anymore. They just wanted to, you know, unplug and be a part of this world of men where men got together and they gambled and they smoked and they talked shit and they engaged in a lot of vice. You know, there's, and that was also when I was exposed to drugs, like a lot of drugs. How old were you at this time? 23. Yeah. About 23, maybe 24 when I really started playing a lot. And a lot of these guys, that was the first time I ever saw anybody do heroin. Yeah. It was a guy who was a world-class pool player. He had two nicknames. One of them was Buffalo Bill and the other one was Water Dog. And this guy, he was. A world-class pool player who was also a heroin addict. And what he would do is he would go into the bathroom and everybody knew what was going on. He would go into the bathroom, lock the door, shoot up, and then he'd come out and he would sit on one of those billiard chairs. So he'd sit on like, it's like a big bar stool with like arms on it. He'd sit there like this. And just pass out? No, just zone down for like 20 minutes, just high as fucking heroin. And then come back. And then when he's back, he was ready to play. And his eyes, his fucking pupils were huge. That's what I remember. He was like. It was like he had gerbil eyes, like shark eyes. And he couldn't miss. I mean, it was insane watching him play. We were playing. There's this table in Executive Billiards in White Plains, New York, where I used to play. Table one had these tiny little pockets because it was the gambling table. So the pockets were just shy of four inches. So you couldn't fit two balls in them. And they were very gaffy, meaning like the way the angles were cut. It was like. The way it was made was kind of. The way they wedged these things in there to make the pockets tighter. It wasn't perfect. Like if you would hit the point a little bit, it would bobble out. It wasn't. It was very difficult to be accurate on this table. And this fucking guy couldn't miss. And he was playing for $10,000. Holy shit. And I was watching this guy play. That stresses me out. I was watching this guy play for $10,000. And the other guy, the guy who was playing was this guy, George the Greek, who was a famous gambler. And George would be yelling at him, This motherfucker, he can't play without his shit. He's got to take. Take that fucking shit. So he's trying to distract him while he's playing. And this guy just. He just couldn't miss. Just moving around the table, seeing all the angles. It's like to him, the game was simple. And it was just when he was on heroin. And he had to do heroin. And I ran into him years later. So I knew him in New York. And then I moved to California. And this was like 95, 96. I was playing in this tournament in Bellflower, California. There's this legendary pool hall that used to exist there. There's still one in Sacramento. But there's one in Bellflower that was called Hard Times. And Hard Times was the mecca. When I was playing pool in New York, everybody was talking about Hard Times. Hard Times was where all the gambling was. And all the great players, the Filipino players would go there. And they had this big Sunday tournament. And so I would go and play in the Sunday tournament because anybody could play. I'd just get killed every week. But I'd go anyway just to be able to play like world-class players and to watch and just have fun. And Water Dog was there. And I'd go, Hey, man, what are you doing out here? And he's like. Yeah, I took a trip. I took a trip to California, you know, just to try to get in some action. He goes, I want to get in the tournament, but I don't have any money. I go, I'll put you in. So it was only like, I don't remember what it was, $20, $25 to get in the tournament. Oh, no. And so I said, I'll put you in. He goes, Oh, but I got to go get my shit. And I was like, What? I go, Well, go get your shit. He goes, I need a ride. I go, I'm not driving you. And he goes, Come on. He goes, You got to give me a ride. It's fine. Don't worry. But I had a nice car at the time, my first nice car. I had a Toyota Supra Turbo. Nice. I loved it. Yeah. And I was like, I can't drive. They'll confiscate my car. I thought you were going to say Highline. No. You can get in real trouble. And he wouldn't play. Or he wouldn't accept that I wouldn't take him there. So I put him in anyway. He played sober. He played terrible. He was angry. He wasn't playing good. He was rotten. You could tell it was a mess. And the guy could have won the tournament. He was that good. I grew up in. I grew up in Canada for a few years, like three years. And I remember reading it. I don't know who this is. And I hope Jamie can look it up for me, Jamie, if you don't mind. But there was a story of a goaltender that would play on drugs. And I want to say it was something crazy. Maybe it was something simple like cocaine. But he would take the drugs before a hockey match because it made the world look slower. And it made him a better goaltender. And he said it was like the puck became like catching a beach ball or something like that. Grant Feuer. Edmonton Oilers and Hockey Hall of Fame goaltender. So he publicly admitted to abusing cocaine for about seven years or using it correctly. Why is he abusing? He used it correctly. Rumors and reports circulated about cocaine use involving several members of the powerhouse Edmonton Oilers dynasty, including a well-known 1986 Sports Illustrated report, though Feuer was the most high-profile player to face official league discipline regarding it. Well, probably because he admitted it. I mean, I remember hearing him say like. Yeah, 1990, he admitted it publicly. Yeah, and I was a child then, so I'd have been eight at that time. But I was living in Canada where everything was hockey. Like, you were not. It was Hockey Night in Canada. It was Molson, Labatt, Blue. And the whole. Like, when I moved there, I was in second grade. And I only knew football. And the coach was like, yeah, we only play hockey here. And I was like, I've never played hockey. He's like, well, you do now. And I was like, well, my mom, we're poor. We don't have any money. This is like in a small. Oilers on cocaine. Look at that. Look at that. Look at the. Hockey news. Wow. Oh, shit. But all I did was watch hockey. They made you. And I told them, I was like, we can't afford hockey gear. All of the kids on the team donated a hockey bag full of gear. The coach brought it to my house. This was like a little town called Plum Cooley, Manitoba, like east of Winkler. Small town, 300 people. And they're like, you play hockey now. And I started learning to skate and did that for like three years. And it was just. Everything was hockey. There was no choice in it. It was. It's crazy. It's religion up there. It was total religion. Yeah. And it was. I remember hearing that story about that guy. And it made me think of that when you were saying that. And that's strange. That's so strange that people get better when they're in these altered states. Well, Ariel Helwani posted something on Twitter today that someone sent me because it was pretty interesting. And it was about this guy who's a goalie. See if you can find it. He was talking about how interesting and introspective this guy is and a fascinating thinker. And this guy is very interesting. He's very intelligent. I don't know his name. I don't follow hockey, unfortunately. But he was talking about how he has to be in an unconscious state to play a goalie. And that when he's in his conscious state, like when he's joking around and talking to people and laughing and having fun with his teammates, then he's conscious and he's thinking. He's thinking too much. So he has to achieve this unconscious state in order to just react to be a better goalie. But it was. Like a flow state almost. Yeah. And the way he described it was really interesting because I was like, I get that. I understand what he's saying. Because you get that with everything. Like, I cannot talk and play pool. If I talk and play pool, I'll play like shit. Like, I'm talking to my buddies and having fun. I get frustrated. I'm like, I got to stop talking. Because if I'm talking, I can't. Like, listen. Yeah, this is the guy. Listen to this. About 34 saves in your night. Just how you felt and what you saw as you looked out from your crease. Yes. I felt nothing. The problem with me is that I have a lot of fun playing. But when I start having too much fun, it makes me into from an unconscious goalie to a conscious goalie. And my conscious brain is really bad at playing goalie. So I have to, like, let my unconscious brain do the work because it reacts a lot quicker. When I'm having too much fun and I'm smiling and I'm talking to everybody and I'm hanging out, what happens is that shifts me into more conscious brain goalie. And then I can't react in time. And then I'm slow. I'm behind the play. And then I give up seven goals, you know. But today it was just unconscious. Like, don't think about anything. You know, if you ask me how I made a save, I have no idea. Just my unconscious brain does it. And that's what you work and practice for, you know. Well, you felt nothing during the game. But I wonder what you felt like after when you're doing the three stars and you hear the crowd. When the buzzer went, that's when I was like, okay, now you can let it all go. So you get a huge rush of, like, dopamine and serotonin and adrenaline and just, like, goosebumps. It's the best feeling in the world. It's, like, the biggest reason why I love to play. And, yeah, then you can just let it all out. and now I can smile and enjoy myself. But yeah, like TV timeouts in between period, I'm like, don't smile, don't talk to anyone, just focus on your game, let your unconscious brain do it, and it was great. It worked. What is this guy's name, Jamie, does it say, in Ariel's? Okay. I don't follow hockey anymore either. But it's the same as you were talking about with Archie when you're shooting a deer, right? Yeah. Like you're going through this process, you're thinking, you're going through it, but it's like you're just trying to stay focused, and then after it's over, you're like, oh. Yeah. Now you can be conscious and aware of this moment, like, wow, this is insane. Yeah, it's a flow state. Devin Cooley? Devin Cooley. Amazing. The only other place that I ever experienced that was in the military. Like we would plan for six months for an operation and do all this intelligence gathering going into an operation where blood and treasure is on the line. One of the operations. Blood and treasure. I like how you put that. Well, that's always the stake. When I was collecting intelligence, those were always the stakes that I kept foremost in my mind, is that collect this like blood and treasure is on the line. Like our countries. money and the taxpayer that has to labor every day to pay these fucking taxes. And the blood of the people, your brothers that you love are the ones that are going into this. Cause I was, like I said before, I'm not the long tab or I'm not the cool guy. I was the nerd for the cool guys. So I treated it like it was like the, like the outcome of the entire operation depended on me is always what went into my brain. That was the only way that I went into this. And if I wasn't totally locked in, but when the, when I would be on a hill or in a helicopter or in a Humvee watching an operation go down based off of my intelligence work, I would get into that same flow state I get with bow hunting, bow hunting. When I was retiring from the military, I was so stressed out because I had no idea what I was going to do that was going to replicate, replicate this experience. I was like, where am I going to get this flow state from? And it dawned on me while I was in the military that helping hunters in the same way, solve targeting problems as helping. You know, JSOC guys or Rangers or, or green army guys, um, that sense of completion that I would get at the end, like when bad guys were dead or arrested or, you know, a terrorist operation was sunk, um, based off of all that work was just like the most addictive feeling in the world is a very addictive feeling. And that flow state that I would get into when I was doing work that was particularly meaningful is such a hard thing to replicate. It's like a place you have to find yourself in. It's not a place you can put yourself in. You have to get there, like start doing the work, start putting things together, start thinking. Here it is. What do we got here, Jamie? This thing, a friend of mine taught me this a long time ago. I don't, I think he probably learned it in college somewhere. Oh, I've seen this. Yes. Four stages of competence. Yes. Unconscious incompetence, conscious incompetence, unconscious competence, and conscious completion, competence. Unconscious competence is the last one. The last one. Okay. So the idea is that you start from ignorance and we're all aware of a lack of knowledge of skill exists. And then you go into conscious incompetence. We're aware that a lack of knowledge and a skill exists. We're unaware initially. And then you go to, we are able to use the new skill with effort. So that's conscious competence and then mastery. We're able to use the skill easily without effort. Yeah. It gets integrated. Yeah. And then it starts all over again when you learn something new. Yeah. And that's why people are. They're addicted to learning things new. Yeah. From the beginning, beginner stage is very important. Very, very good for the mind and becoming a beginner at new things, I think is one of the best things a person can do, especially a new difficult thing like bow hunting or like jujitsu or like golf or like anything or yoga, anything that's hard to do, like learning it in the beginning. It's very exciting and very good for the mind. And I think one of the things that happens to people is they stop doing that. And then their brain atrophies, their brain atrophies and your muscles atrophy when you no longer use it. And that skill of or the experience rather of learning a new skill, learning, learning a new world, a new universe that you are now engrossed in. Very, very beneficial. So good for your ego, too. Yeah. Just I think as I get better at anything, whether it's building apps, military operations, my limited time in doing things like jujitsu, like I just rejoined or was attempting to rejoin a gym, but I'm not going to rejoin a gym. I'm going to find a different one. Just knowing there's a thing in life like when I when you get really good at something, you actually start to learn how much you don't know. Right. It's like you've just uncovered a new world of like, holy shit, I really don't know anything. I thought I was getting towards the top and this was a false mountain. And now the big like I looked at a mountain. I started to climb. I got to the top and I'm like, oh, shit, this isn't even the mountain I was looking at. That's over there. Dennis McKenna had a great expression about this. He said, fuck this up. But it's essentially I'm paraphrasing it that as you expand the bonfire of knowledge, it highlights the surface area of ignorance. That's pretty good. Yeah. And that the more you learn and the more it expands this this understanding that you have of the world you live in, the more it highlights how much you don't know. And that's why people that pretend they know it all are so fucking dangerous. As the bonfire of knowledge, the more you learn, the bonfire of knowledge grows brighter. The more the darkness is revealed to our startled eyes. That's Terrence. I think his brother was the original. I think that someone's paraphrasing that. I think they're attributing that to Terrence when it's Dennis. I think because I'm pretty I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Terrence is quoting Dennis. Either way, both brilliant guys. Yeah. It's like the it's like the yin yang thing, like have one foot in the competence of what you learned. And then another foot in the competence of what you learned. And then another foot in the unconscious incompetence of what you don't know or what you know you don't know. And it's like one of those things, too, is like as you begin to learn these things, you realize I almost become ashamed when I see how great I can be in certain like how good one of the things my grandmother taught me, all of these pearls of wisdom that I come back to now because there's a significant amount of time where I was being raised by my grandparents. My grandmother used to say, be good for goodness sakes. And as a kid, I was always like, whatever, grandma. Like Santa Claus. I don't want to be good. I think it's from that song. I think that's right. But she would always say, like when I was fucking up, she like, be good for goodness sakes. Like, just be good. Right. I threw that away. But she like put a seed. I think Andy said I put that can of food on the on the in the pantry of my mind to come back to it later, because now in my adulthood, it's like I'm always trying to, you know, be good, but also for no reward in itself. Like one of the things is funny story. I always tell us when my wife and kids, when I go to poison my children at McDonald's every once in a while, I always pay for the vehicle behind me. So we'll go through and you know, we have this thing and my kids are always like looking at the vehicle behind because I always tell the person at McDonald's, like I'm paying for the person behind me. I do this in other places in my life much more meaningfully. But this is a good example. And this one time, the lady is like, Are you sure you want to pay for the people behind you? And like, my wife looks at me and she's like, you know, what's the problem? She's like, it's gonna be like 170 bucks or something. And I was like, well, it's not a principle if I don't do it right now. So I'm going to pay for them. And then as we're pulling away, just like big group of like, you know, a bunch of kids just going nuts that their food is paid for. But I would often engage in those types of things because it made me feel good. And that's probably the wrong reason to be gracious. And as I've gotten older, why is it bad to feel good, though? Oh, you're doing a good thing. And you feel good doing something self centric about it. I say that all the time that there's something selfish about being generous. Yeah. And so now I try to do it with no expectation that the person will ever know who did it. And my hope is that they'll walk around saying they're angels in the world or good people in the world that do like, I'll never know who this person is. So now I try to do big meaningful with things in that way. But that was the pearl that my grandmother dropped me with be good for goodness sakes. Like I'm just being good for goodness sakes. I'm not doing it because it's going to inflate my ego. I'm not doing it because I'm going to go tell people what I'm doing. I've done, like, I'll never tell people these things. I'll use the McDonald's analogy, because it's an easy one. That's not like I'm not this benevolent guy. But trying to do it in that way. It's just, you know, these old ways of doing things. And these old sayings that people have start to come full circle, then you realize there's a ton of frickin profanity in these things that we can leverage and try to make ourselves better people by doing it. And that we've been given, whether I guess it's through genetics, or lack of a better term, or through whatever soul transmission. But you know, if you were that there's a young Chinese kid who did an experiment with moths. And he ran this experiment with moths in the caterpillar stage. And he found out that through the transformation, from a moth to a caterpillar, you know, they essentially become like mush, and then reemerge as a caterpillar once they go into the cocoon. Like, this is a very intense metabolic transformation, where their body's like broken down to this mush, and then becomes a butterfly, that or a moth, that this knowledge is transmitted through that process. And not just that, but it's also transmitted to their offspring, somehow or another. Yeah, but this kid proved this, like, physically with these animals, with these insects. See if you can find that. I've only found a video saying it, and they don't have a link on that. It has something to do with lavender. They used a scent, and the scent, when they encountered the scent, they developed this, like, they had something where there was, like, a vibration, and when they encountered the scent, there was an uncomfortable vibration they experienced, so they avoided that scent. And he could prove that the moths had gone from the caterpillar stage, and the moths still retained that memory, and then also it had been transmitted to their offspring. I believe B.F. Skinner also did this with rats. Right, with mazes, right? Yeah, and with the smell of cats, something along those lines. Well, the rat thing is really interesting, too, because this puts it, right, Skinner, right, this also puts it into the principle of morphic resonance. You know, like the idea. Is that you're, so this is one of the things they've shown, is that if you teach rats on the east coast how to navigate a maze, rats on the west coast can navigate that maze quicker. Yeah, this is Rupert Sheldrake's work. Yeah, strange. And very weird stuff, because I think we're very, we have this narrow-minded perception of what knowledge is, and what information is, and where it is, and where it's coming from. It's like that thing that you said, when you see someone, you get the ick. Yep. Like, I don't know what you're getting. Like, maybe you're getting, there's, maybe it's pattern recognition, maybe it's not. Maybe there's like a, there's a sense that we have that's undefined. Yeah. That you can't put a ruler to, or you can't put on a scale, but there's something there that we're not totally aware of that allows us to stay safe, and has been inside of us forever. I think it's like a framing problem, because, like the Greeks would say, the spirit of war. And. I don't think they meant like a flying demon or something, or like, you know, they didn't mean that there's this god of war, and he's a physical entity. I think they mean, this is a persistent thing across all classes of humans, that no matter who they are, this is inside of them, and so it's like a god to us. It's a god, it's a god because it rules us. We don't, it doesn't have, we don't have it, it has us. Well, it's that spirit that comes out when I was talking about with protests. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And so. There's the mob and. There's the mentality thing, it's this thing that happens to us. Yeah, and so if, that's why I say I don't make a lot of distinction between god, the collective unconscious, or transcendent reality. It's this abyss of unknowing that we are fortunate to tap into every once in a while. Right. And pull something out of it, and like, it was interesting, I watched your interview with J.D. Vance, and you guys were talking about the difference between, like, what he conceptualizes as a demon, and what you conceptualize as an alien. And I just think that was a mismatch impedance. I think you guys could be talking about the same thing, but you're using a, a regionally accepted formal lexicon to describe it, but you're, but you could be saying the same thing. So what. Perhaps. Maybe. But I had a purpose to why I was questioning him on that. Yeah. My purpose is that I, my perception was that he was signaling to a certain group of very religious voters. Yes, I know. You know what I mean? Yeah. No, I, and I know. That's why I was so, I don't know if I messaged you about this or not, I believe I did, but it blew my mind that people were talking shit that you had him on. It's like, why wouldn't you want the vice president on? Like, there are a bunch of comments like, oh, so and so's here, big freaking deal, blah, blah, blah. It's like, look, we're in a hot war, and there's a lot of shit going on in the world, and even if Joe's been told he can't ask about certain things, like you talked about with Kamala, I still want the guy talking for three hours. I didn't get any requests from him about not talking about things. Even if that happened, I still want those people talking for three hours, because you can't sit for three hours and talk and not reveal yourself. Right. I mean, things don't protest too much. You will talk about the things that are going on, even if you don't want to, just get the person talking, and that's what I think is the beauty of this podcast for a myriad reasons. One of them is everyone can come on here and just talk, and people will reveal themselves in those three hours. You will get to the nexus of who someone is. Over that three hours, and that's why I want Bernie on here, or I want JD on here, or I want Trump on here, Kamala. When someone won't come on to the biggest podcast in the world who's running for high office, then we should dispatch with that person. It wouldn't matter if it was this podcast or another one. If you can't sit there and talk about your principles and your organizing criteria of the way you metabolize the world, and why you think you're the one who's fit to change it. If you can't talk extemporaneously about that, I don't want you in high office, because you're not revealing yourself. Right. You're not revealing yourself. You're probably a construct. Yes. You probably have this thing that you're promoting, this image that you're pursuing and that you're trying to get the general public to accept. That's not totally real. Yeah. This isn't Fox News for 15 minutes where you get to read the talking points. Right. That's the issue with those things. This is just not enough of a thing. This is just not enough of an understanding of who that person is, and in a long-form podcast, you do get that understanding. I get why people have that sense you shouldn't platform people. I think that instinct is incorrect. If I didn't like someone, I want them platformed. Well, not only that, you already know them. They're already out there. You're not going to make them more popular. They are who they are. Right. But there's certain times, like the Trump interview was a good one, where you never got a chance to see that. You never got a chance to see that guy talk that way, and in really a non-combative situation, because almost all media that he did is either kissing his ass, like on Fox News, or trying to take everything he said out of context. It was binary. Yeah. And you get a chance to see someone communicate for a long period of time. I got so much shit about Trump after the podcast with you, when I gave him a C+ or something. That was a majority of my messages were- Were they mad? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You don't understand Trump and what he's doing. Oh, okay. There's 4D chess here, and you're not getting it. Oh, the 4D chess one is great. And I was like, "Okay, please elucidate me on what's going on right now, because I'm not getting it." Because I was for him in the beginning, and then when everything started going topsy-turvy, and I wasn't able to rationally predict what the next step was going to be, now I'm the bad guy. It's like, "Look, I just wanted these five things, and I'm not getting them. I'm getting one of them." Yeah. Can we have a discussion about the other four? Yeah. Okay. And so, like you said, people aren't going to get changed. There's no one that's going to listen to your podcast with Kamala and say, "You know what? I was a right-wing guy before this podcast, but now I think I might vote for Kamala." But the thing is, there are a bunch of people that she could have reached that are in the middle. For sure. Yes, absolutely. And that's where I think there was a missed opportunity, and I think a lot of people agree to that. Or who want to know more about her. One thing I'll say about. I'll say a good thing about Trump. I've met him a few times. I was on stage with him in North Carolina. He's really good at summing one up quickly. When I first met him, I shook his hand, and he's like, "So you're like the AI guy? You're the AI guy? You can do AI?" And I was like, "Well, yeah, I mean, I was a soldier in the military, I kind of learned it while I was there." And he's like, "Soldier, I could see you being central casting. AI, I don't think so." And that was our conversation, and I was like. This guy's like. He just summed me up in a second. Because I'm more soldier than I am that. And he said some other things, but that was about it, and I just stood behind him on stage for a couple of hours. But he's got this comedic timing, which I think is unheard of, pretty good. But there's other things I just disagree with, and that's a free world. I get to disagree. Well, it's very clear that you don't have ultimate power as a president. No. You can't just do things. And thank God for it. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, that's what the whole process is supposed to be about. That's the reason why we have Congress and the Senate. It's the reason why all that stuff exists. What do you think. Are you thinking we're looking at Gavin Newsom? No. I don't think so. Or someone like that? I think he's too much of a liability. I don't think they're going to. There's just too much going on with them, unless they were severely desperate. I think it's probably going to be someone who's not tainted. I think it's going to be someone who's not tainted in the public eye. Because we buy narrative so quickly. We hated. Or I don't say we. A lot of people hated Kamala Harris as a vice president, and then all of a sudden she was our savior. Yeah. And they did that quickly. Yeah. There's a way that they can promote things, especially now through bots and social media. Social media is infested with nonsense. It's infested with bots. It's infested with completely fake stories. There's so many stories that I read. Like national news stories that are absolutely fake on X, and that people just put up there. And I think they're trying to discourage that somehow. I think you don't get as much money from. Because there's things. You get money from posting on X. I don't, but some people do. You sign up, and it's people that make their living from engagement. I knew they had that on Facebook. I didn't know they had it on X. Oh, yeah. They have it on X. Yeah. People make their living with engagement. But the bots are a real thing? Yeah. I can speak personally to that. I've pulled the string on the bot stuff, looking at how they get funded, where they're ran out of, the people that are behind them, why they do them, how they do them. And it's such a real thing to a degree that people just don't understand how they're being manipulated by these things. It's enormous. It's an enormous market, billions. And it's funded in ways that I think would surprise people. And thank God for things like data leaks and things like it where we can get to this information. Or just the fact that there's campaign finance laws and that money has to be routed and accounted for and these types of things. So that people can pull the string on it and understand how things are being manipulated in the public eye. It should be illegal. It really should be. I am all for people being able to express their opinions. But it should be an individual's opinions or the opinions of an individual that represents an organization. If you're a spokesperson for an organization, you want to tweet something, okay, no problem with that. But I think that organized campaigns where, you know, let's say in particular like there's some sort of big social issue. Some thing that's going on in the world or some thing that involves our civilization, our culture. And then you have either a foreign country or you have an intelligence agency or you have a corporation that's funding this propaganda narrative. This fake viewpoint and making it look like people are in lockstep with this. And then you've got a lot of people that if that, whatever that narrative is, is attached to the ideology they identify with. Whether it's left wing or right wing. Yeah. Yeah. Those people will start parroting those points and you'll see it. You see this like sheep like behavior with people. And it has a tremendous effect on how we view things as a culture. And I think it should be illegal. I think you should have to be a person post for yourself. Yeah. Even if you post, even if you're not named, you should have to authenticate some way. If you're going to enter the zeitgeist of public, any of these types of things, because I mean, the other thing about Facebook. And social media, these are the things that people don't realize is they can feed you the narrative and put it on the vector that helps you metabolize it in the best way. In other words, if a public person is running for office and you might only agree with 10% of what this public person thinks, um, there are ways to manipulate the algorithm. So you're only fed that 10%. Right. So you only understand this, that you're only getting what you agree with, with this particular politician. And there might be 10 other things you don't agree with that you're not going to see unless you pull the thread yourself. And unfortunately, it's just a lot of people. Don't pull the thread themselves because they're busy. They have to make money. They have families. And so they're only getting one side of the story. Um, and then it's being monetized, which is also really gross. Um, it's just super dangerous. It's super dangerous, but it's so super dangerous. It's super easy to manipulate us. It's like, there's never been a better time to use propaganda on a society than today. Yeah. And I watched the ways I've been in the past, how it's happened to me. So it's like, no, I'm not immune to this, even though I understand a lot of it and how it's happening. None of us are, and you're certainly not immune to your algorithm, your algorithm and the echo chamber that you exist in. They just constantly bombard you with one sided opinions. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a weird time in terms of truth and, you know, and everyone has to figure out what's the best way for them to engage with that. Uh, my, the way that I do it, I only look at things that people send me. Someone has to send me something interesting. I'm not seeking anything out anymore. It's just too much. It's too negative. Yeah. And you'll drown in it. You'll drown in it. And it also takes away from your time. It's, uh, it's such a time suck and such an attention suck and that will wasted. It's wasted energy. And I, I always try to explain it to people in terms of, uh, I try to look at my attention and my energy of the day as units. Yes. I have a hundred units. And if I spend 30 of those units concentrating on nonsense and horseshit, I've wasted 30 units, very precious units. It's only a certain amount of days in a year and a certain amount of time. It's only a certain amount of years in your life. I was going to say that about gambling. The reason I don't like gambling is because if I throw down a hundred dollars, that's an hour of my time. And it makes me worried. Like I only have so much time. I'm like, I'm, I'm throwing an hour away. Yeah. I just threw an hour to this casino. I think I would gamble on fights if I wasn't involved in the UFC. I think I would do that because I think I'm pretty good at it. It gets you into the fight. Yeah. A hundred percent. If you've got money on Gaethje and he starts to knock down Ilya Topoyer, you're like, oh shit. I was doing cartwheels in my living room. But I just think about things as time. And so when I had that three grand, I'm like, well, this is what this would take me. I think of my personal time. I bill it about a hundred bucks an hour is about how I look at my personal time. So that's the time I can't get back or I've just gained a bunch of time by getting that 3000 bucks. So I get nervous when I think about getting rid of it. Like I don't like to spend like that. I want to be able to pull the thread. And you said it is units. I would say money units. It doesn't matter because time ultimately in the final analysis, the only thing we can't make more of. Right. At least I think to live a better life, use your time wisely. And that is an old age old expression. Another one of those pearls of wisdom. Yeah. Use your time wisely. Only so much of it. Yeah. It's so finite. Yeah. I mean, it's so funny when I, I have days where I do nothing on purpose where I just, I'm burnt out. I've done too much and I just like to veg date and I just like to hang out in front of the TV and watch cool shit. I just want to be entertained. Yeah. But I'm amazed at how much time flies by. I was like, sometimes I'll be watching just YouTube documentaries and it's five hours later. I'm like, fuck. Yeah. COVID feels like yesterday. Right. It does. It does. It does. It does. It really does. It's, it's nuts. It's nuts. We live in a very unique moment in history and I think about to become even more unique. In which ways? With AI. Yeah. I think the way AI is going to transform society is going to be unlike. Anything that's ever happened before. How do you think it's going to transform society? Well, I think jobs are going to be eliminated. That's a big one. Eliminated. Eliminated. I think there's going to be no use for people for a lot of things that people do right now. What time scale are we talking? 10 years maximum. Maximum. Yeah. Maximum in 10 years, the world's going to be unrecognizable. That's what I think. Um, so how do you feel? You think this will happen? Do you think we're on that course already? Yes. And that it. Uh, that, um, all jobs will be subsumed? No, not all jobs. I think creative endeavors are always going to exist. Yeah. There's always going to be human beings are always going to have the need for human connection. We're always going to want to see live sports. We're always going to see, want to see live music. Live comedy is always going to exist. Uh, I think going to the movies is a great sort of a community experience. I used to love going to comedy movies, comedy movies when they used to make them. Oh yeah. Fucking garbage. Woke, killed comedy. Movies. Yeah. We used to be able to go and you're laughing really hard with a whole group of people that you don't know. Just like going to a comedy club. It's very similar in a lot of ways. I was telling my wife about your comedy club and I said, it's the closest thing to 1996 that I can get to. And she's like, well, what are you talking about? I'm like, well, you lock your phone away. You go in there. There's no worry about someone's recording something. People get to go on stage and talk shit and you're just, you just feel like you're back in a place like no one's sitting there scrolling. I hate watching like people at dinner and both of them are scrolling their phones and you don't see any of that. And it's just shit talking and fun and you're with your buddies and you're laughing and it's just a great experience. And so I have a theory about AI with when it comes to what you just talked about. So I think we're in agreement in at least one thing. And I think what's going to, I think what's going to happen is if you look at like the number one movie in 2020 or 2019 was like Avengers Endgame or Avengers Infinity. War. Those two movies, highly digitized, tons of CGI, everything's getting done in front of a green screen. Um, and it made, you know, $2 billion or over a billion. I don't remember exactly what the number was. And then you look at this last year and the biggest movie per dollar spent was obsession, which was made by a YouTube creator, um, who is doing stuff out of his basement a few years earlier. So I think you're to your point about people wanting genuine human interaction. My theory as it pertains to AI is AI will become ubiquitous in certain ways. It will run, it will eventually, unfortunately, fortunately or unfortunately run massive parts of the economy. Um, it will run a lot of things, but what, but what will happen with people will get sick. And in a few years, your daughters are going to be able to send you an Avengers movie where it's you, Ari, Shane. Right now they can do that. Well, I'm saying like a, they'll with a prompt, they'll make a two hour movie and it'll be just be the Avengers movie and it will look on indistinguishable from another movie and you'll get sick of that quick. And then people, I think things like regional theater houses, my wife and I's favorite thing to do is go to the nutcracker at Christmas time and DC at the national theater. Those things will start springing up and there'll be easier to spring up because to start a business, to start an LLC, if you have a novel idea, you're looking at 30 to a hundred thousand dollars of negotiating red tape and government. In order to start a business, AI is going to make that super easy. And I think in a few years we're going to see theaters. I think we're going to see, I agree with Elon and that prices are going to get way cheaper to make something production scale wise. Amazon's going to be, you'll be able to buy a coffee table for a dollar or $2, $3. I think there will be a large deflationary effect where products are going to get cheaper and the quality of life will go up because more people will be able to buy cheaper things. And if you're living for on, $10,000 a year, you're going to be able to live really well. in the coming years because of AI but because people will be able to set up businesses easier like craft tables handmade things people setting up businesses it will allow a rejuvenation of creative endeavors and people with money or people who are making money in the middle income and above middle class income and above will yearn for handmade things and because it's so easy to start these businesses we're gonna it's the same thing with people who have money now all my friends who have money now have classic cars a lot of them have lots of classic cars they have handmade things handmade furniture all of these things they're I think the market is gonna get flooded because people are gonna be so sick of highly stylized AI making thing everything look awesome I think it's much more likely that in 10 years if you and your wife and myself and my wife are gonna go out we're gonna go to a regional theater house and watch Hamlet or some play or something like that yes that will start with people with more money but as more theater houses pop up and more creative endeavors I think it's gonna be a lot of money and I think it's gonna be a lot of money people are gonna be able to get creatively back into things and AI in my estimation will exist as like a utility in your house they're trying to not do that in ways that we've talked about but a good output for AI is it becomes a water heater in your house you have your own personal GPU that you do your own training or your own things on or it does your bills for you it takes care of the doldrums of life and it can do all of these things for you it's ran locally it's not something that you go to a large company name your large AI company a good output from AI would be we have these open weighted systems that are available to everyone you buy your GPUs it goes in your basement your data never leaves your home you're not out training some other companies AI it all gets done regionally and it handles your bills for you it does your bank account it does all of these very rose-colored glasses it is it is but I see where they're the the human thing like human-created stuff is gonna be more valuable yeah that's the best possible best case and people will be able to afford things if you're not making a lot of money and you don't have a lot of economic output you're gonna be able to live very well I think if we don't get killed by the robots if we don't get killed by the robots I mean I just I don't see a path to sentience with AI in its current form today I guess it's my big that's another conversation that we're gonna have to have we have more time okay that's a long one I didn't think there'd be a second time so now I really appreciate you having your brother it's always great to talk to you you're a fascinating guy if I can do the obligatory yeah so Spartan Forge my company we've released two hunt plus updates tons of UI updates UX tons of features we're about to release that thermal thing that I just talked about before we've got car play we've done a lot of things we've grown a ton and there's some too many features for me to go into there but there's a lot of things that I've We just produced a film on YouTube about an engineer in our company who's also a gunsmith called Old Soul. We're doing a third one about my cabin that I purchased back and having my family out there. And we're going to have some veterans out there and raise some money. On the Spartan Forge YouTube channel? Yeah, on the Spartan Forge YouTube channel. And so we're going to do one about my dad's cabin coming up here. And we've got some great companies. Hoyt is sponsoring it. VPA Archery. Have you shot VPAs before? Sure. Oh, you have? Yeah, yeah. I love those broadheads. They make the archery country broadheads. The whole punch? Oh, my God, dude. I have been aiming for shoulder blades with those things on does and bucks because you can just double shoulder blade an animal and drop it. It's a great broadhead. So VPA. Azio Camo is another one. And my buddy Joe runs Azio Camo. These companies are sponsoring us to produce these films. And we're going to do a coffee table book with it. But we're trying to get into reminding people why we hunt. And why we're out here doing these crazy things. And it's not about bloodlust or killing. It's about the joy of having a backstrap with your kids at the table. Like, you know, up until we run out of deer meat, most of my kids' diet is deer meat. And it's about that coming of age and getting back to our roots and engaging that circuitry that we talked about before. And as paradoxical as it sounds, I'm hoping to help people do that through an application. But, yeah, we're producing a lot of stuff. And it's also just reminding hunters why we hunt. It's not just about the big racks and the bloodlust. It's about food and tribe and shared heritage. So, thank you again. Beautiful. My pleasure, brother. Thank you. Good to see you. Bye, everybody. Bye.