#2560 - David Grusch

Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out! The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day! Alright, we're out. David, what's up? Good to see you. Thanks for having me back on. My pleasure. Well, you're the one who's closest to the flame, so tell me what's going on. I know, right? So, living the nightmare is what I tell my friends, so it's definitely been a tough several years or so. Last time we were on, I just testified in front of Congress, and the UAP Disclosure Act of 23 was possibly getting passed. It failed to get passed, and then based on things I know about the Biden administration, things I heard from the White House, I decided to kind of lay low for a year, so 24, I didn't do too much. And then Representative Burleson had this crazy idea to hire me as a professional staff member for Congress, which I didn't do. So, I was working for him. Turns out, I guess I was like the first guy that ever testified in front of Congress as a whistleblower and then being subsequently hired by Congress. I was the first guy to ever do that, which is very interesting and very cool, and I do thank Burleson for his leadership on that. And so, I did that for about a year and a half. Just finished up, actually. I was like, you know what? I'm staying longer than I thought. I'm going to wait until Labor Day, see where things are. I worked pretty hard over summer recesses. I worked pretty hard in August and decided to, you know, wind down some of my activities because I accomplished a lot of my objectives. We can get into that, obviously, and then kind of move into, I'll call it my next phase of operations, which includes a little break for me. It's been very tiring. I've been kind of, you know, going full throttle for the last couple of years and whatnot. And so, we're really at, I think, a poignant moment in U.S. history with what Trump's done and the things you've seen in the media and whatnot. And there's a lot of other. Stuff happening behind the scenes because, you know, a lot of my work has been private, behind the scenes, you know, working for Congress, specifically representative Burleson. So, let me ask you the environment. So, are there some people in Congress that are interested in disclosure of this stuff and pursue you and want to find out information and want you to tell them what's going on? And are there other people that are resisting this? Yeah, I think there's a big bifurcation of the nonbelievers and then kind of the. UAP caucus, although you see more and more people kind of signing on to the cause. Like, I did a presser back in June in front of the Capitol with members. And we even had Brigadier General retired Representative Scott Perry there, who is on the House Intelligence Committee from my home state of PA. And it was good to see other members, you know, start showing that they support the cause. But it has been challenging behind the scenes. And I had many SCIF classified meetings with the members kind of going over the topological history of this topic. And some of the deeper, darker kind of criminal stuff I bumped into and how I worked with DOJ to kind of highlight some of that stuff. What kind of criminal stuff? Yeah. So, when I was looking into this, I had to be very respectful of my participation because it's an ongoing thing with DOJ. I was, you know, following the money, bumping into other activities. Very much like, actually, it's sort of related. And if you saw on the news, the Daytona. David Rush. Very similar name to me. It's kind of freaky. But he was arrested with $40 million of gold bars. He was a CIA officer. He made a fake continuity of government special access program. And, you know, he went under the radar, basically, doing his own thing and getting gold and Rolexes and stuff. And the FBI raided his house back in May. True story. Yeah. The guy has a. Is that gold bars? Yes. He had $40 million of gold bars. Where did he get the gold bars? From the agency. They have them laying around? Yeah. Yeah. I can't get into all the details of why the government. Wait a minute. Hold on. The government has gold bars? Yeah. And this guy just snatched them? Yeah. He made, I don't know all the details, but he made a fake continuity of government special access program that nobody was briefed into. He, like, you know, papered it. And nobody at the CIA questioned what he was doing. And he was like, well, I need, you know, $40 million in gold bars because of this special continuity of government activity. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. So that's how they fund some things? Yes. In gold bars? It's almost like in Afghanistan when I was over there, I'd have guys with briefcases full of $100,000 in cash because you have to pay for things, right? So imagine. But that kind of makes more sense to me than lugging around gold. Yeah. What does, like, $40 million in gold bars look like? I saw the seizure photos. It's a lot. I mean, it's pretty heavy. Can I see what that looks like? It's approximately 303 gold bars that each weigh approximately one kilogram a piece. Yo. That's a lot of weight. Yeah. I was looking for a picture. There's only, like. There's only, like, AI photos of it. At least that I could find something. So a kilogram is 1.2, 2.2 pounds? Yeah. 2.2, 8 or so. That's crazy. 600 and. He's got 600 pounds of gold? Yeah. Where the fuck do you put this? So he just had it in his house? He did have it in his house. Just laying around? A bunch of Rolexes and all that. Oh, so he was just going crazy. Yeah. Well, who knows what he was really going to use the gold for, but that's an open-ended thing. And he was arrested. Was he pretending that he was using it for some disclosure type deal? Or did it have any? Did it have anything to do with UAPs? Not that I'm aware of, but that same ecosystem I bumped into. So his fabricated program was a continuity government program. So that's like, you know, if something bad happens, people are going to a hideout site, you know, sanitized location. Right. And so what I bumped into, unfortunately, was like the deep underbelly of the federal government. We can get into it. But it's a lot of stuff I've never talked about because it's just very terrifying. And I've been through a lot of crazy shit. I ended up bumping into a criminal enterprise run out of a particular agency, and it was basically getting money through certain criminal endeavors, the most unspeakable type of criminal endeavors under the cover of certain national security programs. That's about as. When you say certain unspeakable. Yeah. You mean like, what do you mean? Like trafficking? Yeah. Like child trafficking? So the government was involved in child trafficking for money. Officers of the government. That's true. Yeah. It's fucked up. I briefed members in a classified setting, all the details. And I'm highlighting that because this is how serious this issue is, is there's an ecosystem. And there's a lot of good people around these programs in terms of the UAP side. Yeah. And I know a lot of them. They're friends of mine. They're patriotic people doing their duty. But there is like a small little caste system of characters that are part of this larger ecosystem of no holds barred. We're going to do what we want. And we're going to do whatever kind of criminal activity to get washed money for our cutouts. So a good example, of course, would be Iran-Contra, right? Which is very famous, 86. And the CIA was engaged in those kind of activities. And this has all been exposed all over North and all that, to fund the Contras, weapons purchases. Procurement, et cetera. And a lot of that seemed to possibly be drug trafficking. The government never confirmed that. But you look at Barry Seale and his statements in the 80s and 90s. And it's likely that that probably occurred. Yeah. It was all through Freeway Ricky Ross. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Ricky's been on the podcast multiple times. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. He was on, what was it, like two years ago? A year and a half ago? Last time he was on. Yeah. It's funny, because he's out now. Became an attorney while I was in jail. Yeah. Found out. Learned to read first. Okay? Couldn't read. Became an attorney in jail. Found out that they tried him. You know that Triple Jeopardy, three strikes thing? Yeah. They tried him incorrectly. They used that incorrectly, because it's supposed to be three different times you were arrested instead of like three crimes that were attached to one arrest. So he gets out of jail. Now he sells legal weed. All right. All right. Lovely guy. Yeah. But he's a great guy. But he had no idea that he was selling cocaine to fund the Contras versus the Sandinistas. Interesting. He had no idea. Yeah. He thought that he was just a slick character that just knew what he was doing. He didn't realize that the CIA was literally allowing him to do it. Now, we've also had Michael Rupert on the podcast. Do you know who he is? No. Michael Rupert was the LA narcotics officer that, I believe it was on C-SPAN. He went on C-SPAN during a hearing, and he. He exposed the entire organization selling drugs in South Central Los Angeles, because he was involved in it. He was involved in like busting people that were doing it, and then they told him he has to leave it alone, because it was the CIA. Yeah. 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Buy two months of Blue Chew Gold and get the third free with my code ROGAN. You'll also receive free overnight shipping. Visit BlueChew.com for more details and important safety information. Yeah, and so when I bumped into that stuff, you know, I immediately worked with Department of Justice. That's one level, but like child trafficking is another level. I know, man. It's really fucked up, and there's a lot of details that are. I have a lot more questions than answers, and I, you know, I worked with DOJ, and, you know, from what I understand, I got a gold star and a brief to Kash Patel about it last year. I wasn't in the briefing, but I, you know, I was told I got kudos, but it was very disturbing, and so, like, obviously, a lot of these programs are legal in the sense that there's, in terms of UAP stuff, there's, you know, classified executive orders back in the day that covers them, and they're upstanding citizens, and we could litigate, like, you know, uh, Congress wasn't necessarily, brought into the fold enough from an oversight perspective, etc., but, you know, the core of the program, you know, does have, uh, a legal beginning, but when you don't have oversight, unfortunately, certain small pockets of people start doing shit that they shouldn't have, and I, and unfortunately, I got deeply ensnared in that, and there was a very small group of people that, uh, you know, pushed me over the edge, and I had to do what I got to do to, to, you know, protect myself, and I never wanted to be a whistleblower. I never wanted to be a whistleblower. You know, I was a deeply entrenched, you know, 15-year intel officer, military officer in the Air Force. You know, I was working some of the country's most sensitive issues, you know, sort of going to the White House to brief the National Security Council in my mid-20s on space issues back during the Obama administration, and, and in 2019, when I joined the UAP task force, and I was tasked to investigate this, I was like, sure, I'll look into it. You know, the special access program or black program community has a lot of dysfunction, and, and maybe some stuff wasn't reported, you know, you know, correctly, and, and I didn't know really what I was going to find, but if there was a U.S. program, you know, I'd figure it out. I'd probably get cleared to it, and we'd be fine. We'd have like a mafia meeting, and, and, you know, that, and I know why it was protected the way it is and whatnot, but unfortunately, about a year and a half, about October 2020, is when kind of my life changed, and particular individuals, instead of you knew me, by the way, personally, I know, I know them personally, now, Dave, you're bumping into something, you know, I'm going to defensively brief you, this is what it is, or, hey, I'm going to slide an NDA, sign this, and I'll read you in, and, and my colleagues and I joked about that, like, we're bumping into shit, eventually, somebody's going to knock on my door in my office and be like, hey, I need to talk to you, and unfortunately, that never happens. It's really tragic, because that would have been an easier way, but I immediately got, administratively, nuked in October 2020, and basically, they went after everybody around me, my boss at the National Reconnaissance Office as, you know, Major Grush, the Air Force officer in the Reserves, got walked out of NRO headquarters in Chantilly, Virginia, under fabricated personal conduct things, and they went after, you know, my chief of staff who worked for me at NGA when I was 15, and, and co-workers, people they thought were, my enablers, right, and, and I thought, okay, I could fight this, they're bringing up, like, my mental health stuff, which we've talked about before, Afghanistan, PTSD, I'm like, I reported it, I was cleared of, you know, no problems, kept my top secret clearance, and I still have my top secret clearance, but it got very, very scary in early 2022, and I've avoided talking about this for a long time, and I've mentioned in my hearing in 2023, you know, I was, you know, I'm, I'm here in fear for my life, etc., well, you know, I'm not talking about the criminal stuff I found, stuff that's happened in my personal life and stuff, and so, back in early 2022, everything's fine, started noticing some suspicious activity near where I live, and I didn't think much of it, thought it was kind of strange, and I don't want to quite go into all the details, but basically, later one particular day, I was sent a message that they can touch me, and my wife, and they, they're, they know where we are, and they, yeah. And what do you think this was particular, was this because of the child trafficking stuff, was this because of some other illegal activity with no oversight? You know, in private environments, I was asked what, what red line, what trip wire did I cross? To this day? To this day, I don't know specifically. I suspect, based on them, what turns out, they were monitoring my classified computer at work, my, my investigation notes that I would keep encrypted on there, I think they were very worried that I figured out a lot of things, and I, I still don't know for sure, though, like, and it, and there's a lot of other things, too, I guess I'm kind of jumping around, because 21, you know, certain people that were helping me and I was talking to started to experience Havana syndrome symptoms, you know, anomalous health incidents. And I know a lot about that. That's another kind of ecosystem I was an expert in the government. And of course, my first thing is like, huh, did you piss off the Russians or Chinese or some other kind of foreign intelligence service or because you don't think domestic? And I'm like, what did you do in your career? Were you on covert action programs? Did you like, you know, bomb some, you know, adversaries building and they're pissed off at you and they hold a grudge. And so I noticed that I wasn't going to equate that to the topic. And but I was very nervous about that because people I know were starting to experience those symptoms, specifically microwave directed energy, most likely just based on certain tradecraft they were doing to detect it, which I won't get into. And then there's their symptomology, so to speak. And so that was frightening. And in that 2021 timeframe, I was sitting at home, I was getting, you know, investigated by three agencies. And I really didn't know what was going on. A lot of my colleagues were going to continuing on that investigation on my behalf. And eventually in late 2021, NGA hired me as a 15 off the street, kind of came back into government full time. I was hoping, you know, that agency would protect me against, you know, the CIA in the NRO and certain elements of the DOD that were going after me because of these couple antagonists that were trying to, you know, basically push me over the edge administratively. But what, what I crossed the Rubicon early 2022, when I was sent a message, and it was the same day I was sent a message, other people got that message too. So it was coordinated geographically. And, of course, you know, I reported that to federal law enforcement, kind of intelligence element. And at the time, I'm like, well, you know, there was a one adversarial intelligence agency that had an interest in me several years ago. And I had a little incident that was actually kind of funny. So I wasn't sure if it was like the US government, or even if it was related to the my investigation. And then several, several weeks later, and I was I get chills talking about this, because it's, kind of upsetting. I was in DC, for a conference on UAP, actually, for my for my agency, NGA at the time. And I got summoned to an off books, Senate Intel Committee, we'll call it meeting in their, you know, their skiff, right there, their vault, where you can talk classified information, and certain individuals were there known to me, great credentials, people I've known for a while, in my line of work. And so was, you know, dozen dozen and a half senior staff for Marco Rubio, Mark Werner, et cetera. And in that meeting, we talked about the legacy program, the history, many hours. And I'm going to fly on the wall. This is really for Senate staff. I'm just kind of sitting in the back. And, you know, they turned to staff and they, you know, they pointed at me and they're like, oh, by the way, you know, these couple individuals and they named the individuals. I'm like, I know who they are. They wanted to kill you. And I know Lou Elizondo talked about it. But why? I do not know that for sure. I think, well, so be careful what I say. There are certain presidential findings that allow certain things to protect critical things in the government. And my assessment. And is I was getting so close to exposing it because I was sort of preparing my inspector general's report to the I.G. that I must have crossed some sort of Rubicon. I still would like to know. And I hope these people are, you know, brought to justice. And that's, you know, my wish and dream. And hopefully Department of Justice does what's needed. But there's an investigation ongoing right now. Yes. On that. And that's all I'll say defensively not to interfere with that. A good day starts with a solid answer. Good morning routine. So if something's missing, if your body isn't getting what it needs, everything can feel off. AG1 is designed to help fill the holes. 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I think some problem children decided to abuse some standing options to protect, you know, critical infrastructure in the United States, which, you know, for example, that would be like Air Force flight line, a ICBM silo, other activities. And they decided I was some sort of threat. And it's it's so disgusting because I, you know, like I said, I was a field grade officer in the Air Force. I was a GS-15 at CIA, Colonel Cleveland civilian. And I'm sitting there in Senate chambers and I'm hearing this and I won't get into all the details in a lot. I heard like, you know, all the details. All the details on that. And I don't want to like burn my sources. And and I just remember how upset Senate staff was. And to the point where, you know, a particular staffer who's very senior went to his office and got some whiskey and, you know, all of them started drinking in the skiff because it's like everybody was afraid. Like, are they serious? They're like they literally were thinking about killing fucking Dave. And like and I found out that there was a kibosh to that. It's a longer story for some day. If I could ever. You know, discuss the whole the whole history. And so it was considered. But then it was kibosh. Yes, thank God. And I know how it was stopped. And I owe some people a debt of gratitude, literally. And and this was just a few weeks after, you know, I was sent a message. And and even after the meeting, we were finding stuff and other people were finding stuff to let people know that they're being tracked. And I know this sounds like so fucking crazy and all that. But well, so does someone having $40 million in gold hanging out their house and a bunch of Rolexes. Yeah, never did. I think, you know, I'm a very patriotic guy. I love serving America. You know, it hurts me every day not having the uniform anymore. And knowing that was the level that they thought about going to because of this interesting interpretation of certain standing options. And I and eventually in this disclosure process, a lot of that will come out. I just have to be careful what I say now until, you know, the president figures out how to release some of this history, unfortunately. So I understood. Yeah. So one of the things that we talked about before. So you were scheduled for another podcast a while back, but flights got canceled when we moved it today. But you were saying that it's actually fortuitous that it was rescheduled. Yeah, a lot of things are happening. I see the administration getting really, really serious on this. And I think people don't appreciate the courage that Trump is is is showing right now, ordering the government to release everything we know about this topic. It'll be courage. How so? Like, you think he's in danger? No, not necessarily. But it's it's the ontological shock and the history coming out and sort of the outrage. I mean, I think it'll be uniting sort of like in post 9/11 America after the towers fell. Right. You have the fear of dirty bombs and other terrorist attacks. But you also have this like a uniting panacea that kind of brings you think that is equivalent to what's happening right now? It will be. And I think that's going to happen. So I believe before Trump, Trump's term ends, that it's all going to come out. What does that mean? Everything I've testified about, you know, the fact that, you know, we've been studying this for a while, we've recovered material, a.k.a. intact, semi intact craft. We've, you know, recovered this anomalous intelligence piloting the craft. And, you know, we are reverse engineering that. And obviously there's other parts to that. It's very complicated ecosystem. A lot of people who are just release it all shows Indiana Jones warehouse tour don't appreciate the care that we're going to have to proceed with, because this is not a static ecosystem. This isn't just like archaeology where you're digging up stuff. There is you are dealing with, you know, third parties, both human, you know, adversarial countries, et cetera. They have their own program. And then you have, you know, our this anomalous intelligence or visitors, NHI, whatever you want to call them, ultra terrestrial, depending on which taxonomy in the tree that you want to ascribe some of this origin to. And and of course, you know, the national security related technology. That has been derived. We've derived great stuff to defend America. I've had exposure on that. And, you know, I'm very we've derived it through back engineering. Yeah. Yeah. Hundred percent. Yes. Well, some of it, it was inspiration. It wasn't a one to one like we we we unlocked the iPhone. It was like, huh, that's an interesting material. Look at that frequency selective surface property. You know what? We could use that for an aerospace application or whatever. And so a lot of it was gone. It was garnered via inspiration, not one to one. Yeah. In some cases, I suppose we did. But like that's been most of it. So what's the hold up in terms of disclosure? I necessarily can't read the president's mind. There's certainly a multilateral kind of diplomatic issue. I mean, so we're in this this issue now where once we cross the Rubicon, then we affect allies and adversaries. You know, our adversaries have programs. We're they going to tell their citizenry? You have possible theological distress, Vatican, etc. And I'm a Catholic and I certainly appreciate the Vatican's long study on this subject. And they've just stayed quiet on what they know. And so it's there's a lot of like collateral effects. If you're not careful with certain stuff, you can, you know, trigger a response. And there is great fear that I don't necessarily believe in this, but like there has been assessments in the past that, you know, revealing certain things may, you know, trigger a response from a third party. Trigger response from them, from these possibly entities. Yes. And that is a that has been written up. So the government think tanks wrote that up and reports the previous president. So the the theory is that we disclose people are now aware of it all over the globe and they decide to show themselves. Yeah. I mean, I think there's a real fear of like a Ghostbusters moment, I'll say. Oh, boy. You know, and it's one of those things where I'm trying to walk the line and be as diplomatic as possible and also trying to prepare the populace at the same time, because clearly the government hasn't right now. And I mean, Trump wants it out for sure. His team needs to be astute enough to know what to ask for, you know, massage the deep state and and get that information, because we just saw Tim Burchette on Benny Johnson's podcast talk about Stephen Miller called him and was like, hey, I'm getting blocked like physically. blocked from access to a lot of this stuff and you know that's very concerning I would say Stephen Miller is an alpha dog he's a pit bull and as a fellow alpha I do appreciate his that's a silly thing to say yeah you know that right what a fellow alpha fellow alpha opens yourself up to like tremendous amounts of ridicule yeah I know I know I mean nobody's perfect and I know everybody has their faults but I do appreciate the fervency he is attacking the issue behind the scenes and I just I think he needs guided the right way and informed and kind of how how to cut this deal you know I met him very briefly at the UFC event at the White House and he told me that it's going to come out I'm like okay that's good well there you go it was really quick yeah it's like he's like I'm just I know you're interested in this this is literally all we talked about the UFO thing is going to come out yeah like okay when when's that coming out you let's go exactly and and and Trump understands the subject pretty good and you know he's in the know and he understands some of the implications so I like I said he has a lot of courage because this is likely going to change society in a big way I can't necessarily I'm not like a social anthropologist or a psychiatrist like I can't necessarily predict in what specific ways it might reduce you know feudal nation-state peer competition and other things but it is going to change and I and I think when people look back at this interview it's gonna be very haunting because I think in short order you know before Trump leaves office we're gonna be in a new paradigm and I'm normally a very pessimistic cynical person a lot of my friends know that but I I have great confidence that the president is doing the right thing and I feel there's eventually gonna there the people that are in charge of this are gonna have to comply with the president's order and but there's a right way of of doing this I think and I like I said I'm not some sycophant for the deep state I'm a whistleblower obviously and you know I have philosophical differences about how this was kept and how they could possibly reveal stuff but I am surprisingly confident which is which is kind of weird for me to say cuz I just see the tea leaves I know Miller serious there's other people in government serious I mean even see Aaron Lucas the PDD and I the deputy director National Intelligence you know sign these big NDA waivers it includes like any kind of waiver I'm not even telling the president sorry you have to tell us kind of thing and and so you're seeing kind of the the chessboard being set I know everybody's not happy with the tranches coming out with the low-hanging fruit videos and and recordings and stuff and representative Burleson and I before I left his office recently got a 1952 recording that was still classified from Blue Book talking about the seriousness of this issue and all the crazy shit that they're seeing near nuclear sites and test ranges which is interesting because in in that video that's been declassified it mentions the very sites that in modern day have that same anomalous activity to include stuff in the Southwest I can't say where it's in the ecosystem in the open source but the executive branch has it acknowledged what specific tests and training range they're seeing crazy orbs that they can't explain this accost helicopters and and all that so um so is Trump experiencing resistance in your opinion yes um and I don't know all the details but uh clearly clearly Miller has and a lot of it is I think and I can't read the mind of the Deep State but as a former Deep Stater I would say that there's always been this kind of disdain for political appointees and they don't and members of Congress like they don't they don't have the reverence on this issue they're gonna it up they're gonna just you know say something that they shouldn't have about a classified program and that's why some classified programs are kept from Congress it's called waved programs um and uh the only presidents that were really really involved were the ones like HW Bush right he was CI director he was fully briefed on this issue a lot of that lore is true about HW Bush Cheney like I've talked about fully in this he was the mob boss for many years he was kind of the head of this activity and so I think there's some um testing of the waters right now it's kind of like cat's paw dynamic like you know we'll give you a little bit of this a little bit of that and they're they're seeing how the administration is gonna potentially roll this out and obviously if the White House wants my opinion I'm available but um I do trust the president's team hopefully we'll be able to handle this and because if Trump doesn't enforce his order and see this through I don't think any other president is going to be able I mean I mean regardless of Democrat left right whatever like if he follows through on this he's going to be the goat he's going to be a legend and you know all the other things people have problems with in his presidency Iran whatever I think this will um wipe those out and this is like really important for his Legacy to initiate the process before the 28 election and then there's like a hot handoff to the next um administration and you know if Trump's a political animal he could easily line up a Republican team on the 28 ticket to basically you know be his continuity on this too I think that'd be very smart and so this is going to take a long time to release is that how you're projecting that was always the plan back in the day I just because it's like an anesthetization and climatization process it's like you know okay we're going to focus on this topic everybody's this is going to get normalized the temperature is going to cool and then we're going to bring in this shocking thing so there's a there's a schedule like in terms of like the psychological impact on the populace in the past in terms of certain um government think tanks wrote classified assessments for previous presidents on this I don't know what the current plan is I'm just uh I'm currently literally a private citizen right now right but if they're going to do what they did in the past it is and the slow rollout has its pluses and minuses like I would say due to human factors risks of adversarial countries getting ahead of us other whistleblowers whatever you probably have to roll this out in at least like 12 months and whatnot but we're in a precarious time if the administration doesn't start because uh China and Russia could take advantage of this moment now our weakness you know China has their famous Belt and Road initiative uh China has admitted publicly that the uap task force obviously they have more than that behind the scenes and they actually announced that when the dod uap task force was announced you can find a news article from June 2020 in the South China Morning Post where they talk about they're analyzing these encounters they're using AI Etc so do you feel that China has or do you know if China has these crashed vehicles as well there's parallel programs there's parallel programs now one of the things that Diana Pasolka said when and and Gary Nolan refers to in the same way as well they they refer to them as donations yeah that's what's really interesting is I am aware of certain historical retrievals where they were like perfectly landed and it wasn't like a crash and what is what's going on there I'm sure we've done a deep assessment I had never had access to that kind of information I'm sure that we understand why that happened at some level but that is true that that's actually the theory is that they want us to find these things so that we can examine the technology and perhaps work from it back engineer it or like you were saying before gain inspiration to try new yeah I mean this episode is brought to you by Dodge I've recently had the chance to get behind the wheel of the new gas powered Dodge Charger scat pack and it reminds me how much I love cars that give you an adrenaline rush the second you hit the gas first thing that got me was the performance exhaust it sounds awesome paired with a twin turbo six-pack gas engine mind-blowing I I love cars that sound like that and then I tried to launch control it's fantastic you feel all 550 horsepower then goes from 0 to 60 in 3.9 seconds with a top speed of 177 miles an hour and it's comfortable it's nice to drive another cool thing you don't have to choose between control and performance you got all-wheel drive when you want the grip but you can switch it to rear wheel mode and just have fun with it totally get why people are so excited 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peel it but also the Or a skeptical intel officer in me is like, well, is this a Trojan horse? Do you want us to figure things out and then get addicted to a certain type of technology? And then that creates a control loop where they start handling us, whether we need raw resources to maintain a certain technology or what have you. They, as in this intelligence, whatever this is, this non-human intelligence. Right. So if it is a donation, do you feel like this donation is evenly distributed amongst world powers? You know, I do not know the statistical distribution. That's very interesting. I never understood the total number of retrievals in other countries participated in. But there's supposed to be quite a few in the United States. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's for sure. I don't know the answer to that, actually. I'm sure. But there's a statistical analysis that will come out in this process. Do you think there's any shared information between these governments? Do you think they communicate? There is a gentleman's agreement. The top layer of it I can talk about, and I've talked about it previously, so it's not anything super new. If you look at the Accident Measures Agreement of 1971, which is the short title of this god awfully long title treaty that was signed in September 1971, you'll see. Article 3 of the treaty talks about UAP, and hey, if you see any unidentified objects around your nuclear or critical comms facilities, please call us, bro. And that was between the USSR and America. And then in 2013, the classified annex of that treaty got declassified. You can find it online at George Washington University National Security Archives. But it gives the nuke flash, like the red line, like code to say it was like Adam 222, Adam 333, and that's all declassified. And it gives the nuke flash, like the red line, like code to say it was like Adam 333, and that's all declassified. And he would send that to the Kremlin like, hey, we see fucking weird shit around Plesetsk. It's not us. It's not a false flag and vice versa. And so there was a red line comms for UAP activity between Russia and the U.S. And, of course, Russia and the U.S. during the Cold War had a mutual notification treaty for a space launch vehicle and ICBM launches, et cetera. Weirdly enough, we've never had that with China. Even to this day, we don't have a mutual. This is crazy. We don't even have a mutual. We don't have a mutual notification. If they're going to do like a submarine-launched ballistic missile test off their coast, they're not obligated by treaty to tell us. And sometimes they don't with certain national security activities. And so Northern Command, NORAD, Missile Warning Center, other places, NSA, DEFSMAC in Laurel, Maryland have to be on their A-game to make sure it was like a test because the Chinese aren't obligated to tell us. And I – a crazy story in that regard. The Indians did something like that to us. I was on duty in the NRO Operations Center. And by the way, I got this clear through security. So NRO, don't shank me. Basically, there was an unexpected Indian missile test that hit one of their satellites in 2019. That was like March of 2019. Hit one of our satellites? Oh, no, not our. One of their defunct weather satellites. Yeah. Their own. Their own defunct weather satellite. On purpose or an accident? On purpose. They shot down one of their own satellites. Yeah, and they didn't tell us. I remember in my office, I had all these different phones. I'm like calling the embassy, all this. I'm like, what the fuck? And because we were worried at the NRO about the debris because we fly spy satellites. That's the mission of the National Reconnaissance Office. And I was the backup director of intelligence as a reservist at the Operations Center where I was also handling the PDB for the director. And I led the directors. I was briefing team. And, you know, I'm like going to the orbital analysts on the watch floor with all the crazy screens like calculate the debris field. You know, let me know if we have to maneuver something and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like running up to the director's office in my uniform, you know, out of breath. I'm like, holy shit, you know. And it was kind of a big deal. And that's publicly, you know, you can Google that now. And I remember when that went down, it was pretty crazy. So that sounds completely insane. Yeah. So are there other countries? Are there other countries besides China, Russia, and us that supposedly have access to these vehicles? Yeah. Which other countries? Can you say? That I don't want to get into because that gets into some sensitive stuff. Right. Supposedly, this is like one of the best legends, that there's a craft that's so large they couldn't move it. So they had to make a building around it. And it's supposedly in Korea. Allegedly. I don't know. Oh, yeah, you do know. How dare you? But you've heard that rumor, I'm sure. I've heard that rumor online. Yeah. You don't know anything about that? Yeah. We'll let the federal government deal with that. Do you have any personal experience with any of this stuff? You know, it's funny you ask that. As far as I can remember, I have no experience with the phenomenon. Like a lot of people in this, I guess, ufology, whatever you want to call it, they have that personal experience. Like, oh, yeah, when I was a kid, I saw an orb or whatever. And I have zero. I've seen a couple interesting things in the sky. I've seen a lot of things in the sky that, you know, could have been satellite passes. I've been an amateur astronomer. Besides having a physics degree, I have been an amateur astronomer since I was like in middle school, like 12, 13 years old. And I still have never seen anything in my personal life in a stupendous nature. I've never had any kind of spooky woo stuff happen. Never been visited. No. And that's why, like, I was open to this. You know, I'm a child of the 80s. Well, I grew up, I was born in the 80s. You know, most of my childhood was in the 90s. And, you know, I watched X-Files and Star Trek Next Gen. And, of course, I'm like, you know, I'm a precocious teen reading like Brief History Time and, you know, Isaac Asimov and I'm learning about the Drake Equation. I'm like, there's probably life, but who knows? And I'm open to it. And then, you know, when I got into the intelligence community, that's like the first thing I looked up like on the web. I'm like on the computer. I'm like, I go on to a certain database and like type it in Area 51, you know, UFO. Like everybody's done that who's gone through Intel school, whether they admit it or not. And of course, I didn't see anything. The only thing I bumped into early in my career in like 2009, I remember reading the OSAP, the Defense Intelligence Reference Documents, the DIRDs. And at the time, I had no idea what they were doing. Turns out it was obviously UAP related. But I was reading, why is the DIA looking into magnetohydrodynamic propulsion and cloaking and all this other stuff? And of course, I find out later what it was. But I had absolutely no idea. I had no personal experience and even professionally for most of my career. Now, I found out behind the scenes later like, oh, you remember that top secret program you're working on, Dave? You were actually looking for UAP and you didn't know it. I'm like, what? And of course, you know, I find out and I learn about, you know, how they hid all this infrastructure and they used a lot of conventional national security intelligence collection architecture to basically facilitate this crash retrieval program, which makes sense. Because they're not going to reinvent the wheel and, you know, totally have a separate infrastructure to use to like figure out if stuff crashed, activity, et cetera. And you know, early, I would say about 10 years into my career, I remember some imagery analysts saying, hey, Dave, you know, like they told us to airbrush some stuff out of photos and stuff. And it was round. And I'm like, okay, dude, well, maybe that's something you're not clear to or whatever. But I do remember that. And I had some suspicious recruitment earlier in my career, too. I was on some really sensitive stuff that I ended up finding out it was directly adjacent to the program. And I went through this whole like smoking man recruitment thing for a year and I was told I was going to get these kind of bizarre accesses and I'm like, what are you talking about? And ultimately, I was never recruited and I kind of just like filed that in the back of my brain for years. But like I've said, you know, before. Not until like spring of 2017, I was at the CIA briefing, the deputy director staff on a bunch of DOD classified programs and the chief of a very sensitive office at the agency pulled me aside and was like, Dave, what do you know about UFOs? Like I hear there's like a program at the Pentagon and all that. And I'm like, I don't know, like I'm briefed almost every DOD program at the time, by the way, and hundreds of programs in the intelligence community because I was in a position of very distrust. And I'm very patriotic and I'm very humbled that I was in a position like that in my 30s. And I didn't think anything of it until this subject got more popularized. People went public, you know, Tom DeLonge, TTSA and all that. And then I was professionally interested but not really working on it in 2018. And then early in '19 is when I got brought on as the NRO rep to the then Navy task force, which became the DOD's UAB. That's kind of my origin story. And so I was always I'm always been curious, but I never saw evidence and I never had any personal experience with the phenomenon that kind of colors my judgment on this, I guess. So I'm sure you're aware of how put off when he was tasked by the Bush administration along with a bunch of other thinkers to try to come up with pros and cons for disclosure. Yeah, I knew some other people in that meeting and I verified that meeting took place and even. Even Arrow admitted in their volume one report, which was horrible. That's a long story, painful that it took place. But it was just a hypothetical scenario at a federally funded research and development center in northern Virginia. What year was this? 2004. It was like November of 2004. And it's like, but why was it hypothetical if it's not real? Nobody explains that. And obviously the story is, you know, Steve Hadley, who was the national security advisor, sponsored it. I believe Hadley denies it, but, you know, who knows if Steve would, you know, tell the truth on that just because of the sensitivities. And so for people that don't know what happened, supposedly they brought in a bunch of different thought leaders and they gave them a pro and a con side. Like what would be negatively affected by disclosure, what would be positively affected by disclosure, and attach a numerical value to each. Correct. They had like a computer system there that like tabulated everything. From what I know, talk and other attendees. And virtually every one of them had more negative than positive. And so the decision was made to not. Well, yeah. And the main decision, if I remember correctly, was the federal contracts fraud. Well, that could be debated in the Supreme Court, but they realized a lot of. So this is another issue of disclosure. Besides the ontological shock and people can't handling it. Misappropriation of funds. Yeah. And misappropriation of funds and all that. It's, oh, so these set of contractors got sole source contracts and exclusive access to this for internal research and development. Where they. Figure out something and then sell it back to the government, et cetera, for all these decades. What about my mid-level small business and my contractor and blah, blah, blah. And so you're going to. They were afraid that you would see legal challenges going to the Supreme Court in violation of what they call the DFARS, right. The Defense Federal Acquisition Regulations. Right. And the government would be liable for who fucking knows billions of dollars worth of monies that they spent on this to these contractor partners. And they got in back in the day and like, well, we're not exposing any more people. We're locking it down and what they call a J and a justification and approval for a sole source contract. This is a race national security. Like, we can't expose any more people to this. And of course, that also causes a brain drain and group think and actually hurts the defense industrial base. But that was the main reason it wasn't, oh, you know, upcoming millennials that are turning 18 can't handle it. It was like, yeah, we're, we're, we're kind of culpable. And kind of a fucked up a contractual relationship. And and that's going to be something that the Trump administration is going to have to deal with this. Like, well, how do I reorient the defense and industrial base? I mean, this could trigger a golden era of innovation in America. More people get the play. You overtly can take the basic information that's not sensitive and put it into academia. Right. So you have undergraduate graduate postdoctoral programs and you actually create this like more educated workforce to actually benefit national security. But in China doesn't have this issue. They're they're pulling people from pick a university in China, Nanjing, whatever university, and they're sucking them into these programs. And but in America, we don't have that kind of permissive totalitarian environment. So, well, in China, they probably don't have the issue with misappropriation of funds and lying to Congress. Now, CCP, baby, you know, do whatever you do, whatever they want. So they don't have to worry about liability. So this is one of the things that came up in that film Age of Disclosure is that you're going to have. To make some sort of amnesty program. Yeah. And I'm I am for that as long it's like use immunity for specific testimony or as long as it doesn't cover like this other shit you're talking about. Like my and of course, I know who's watching people clearly that are from this ecosystem and I expect that like everybody's been basically good Americans. There's a small cast of characters that have done unspeakable things. I mean, hell, they wanted to. To fucking kill me. This is like it's disturbing and you wonder why I had to become a whistleblower. I don't want to do this shit, but like I was pushed over the edge to do that. You know, I digress. But like besides like blue collar, really fucked up criminal shits, which, you know, once again, there is a judicial justice process in America, you know, we're not going to do street justice here. We will, you know, take care of that professionally, like I took care of the other criminal stuff I found out professionally. I'm like, look. I'm, you know, and when I was doing that, I mean, I was meeting people, body armor armed with colleagues of mine that were, you know, rolling heavy, too. And like it was a very serious part of my investigation. But yeah, I believe in amnesty, but I think we need to do it like Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which was in post-apartheid South Africa in the 90s where you had, you know, some white farmer comes in. It's like, yeah, I murdered a bunch of black people or whatever. And it's like, OK, thank you for telling us that. You're good. You're good. You know, don't do it again and move on. I mean, I'm distilling it down, but that's essentially what the TRC in South Africa was. And I think something like that would be very additive and good because, I mean, I have friends that were on the program. They're great guys, the bros, you know, and gals. And they, you know, were signed paperwork. You know, it was like, if you divulge this, it's under penalty of treason. You get 11 worth or, you know, capital punishment. OK, let's break down what you know. Yeah. And what you can say. Yeah. What are these things and what are they capable of? So there's like physical and non-physical, call it UAP and intelligence we're likely dealing with. So, for example, the orbs, could that be sentient plasmoid? Possibly. Sentient plasmoid, so plasma that has consciousness. Yeah. In some way, and that could be like you're seeing the other side of some sort of wormhole and it's some other intelligence shooting this, like I'll call it like plasmoid probe into, you know, our existence. I mean, this is, of course, a theoretical framework. And once again, I don't have a Ph.D. in astrophysics. But it's theoretical that there is a life form that is a plasma-based life form. And there's already papers on the open Internet about this. A couple of years ago, what's the title of the paper, they wrote about this possibility. So this is a academic assessment of a possibility of the orb. Now, could the orbs actually be physical craft, but they have a sheath of plasma around it? Well, interestingly enough, and OSAP did a defense intelligence reference document on magnetohydrodynamic propulsion, which if you remember the movie The Hunt for Red October, that's the caterpillar drive on the Russian submarine, you know, back in the day. And of course, with MHD, you can also do it, you have to use a conductive fluid, either seawater that has salt in it, or you could do it in the air, but you have to create a plasma. And you steer the plasma, it's called the Lorentz force. It's basically of a perpendicular magnetic field, a large amount of electricity, and you can basically, through the Lorentz force, which is like ionic propulsion, sort of control it in the atmosphere as well. And you can, you know, read papers on that and IEEE and other stuff like that. And so one of the byproducts of an air-breathing MHD system. Is plasma around it. So depending on the size of the orb, it is conceivable that there's a physical craft behind it as well, just as an artifact of the propulsion system. Once again, that's a theory, I'm sure the program knows, and that will be communicated at a later date. But like, you know, that's. Yeah. So this theory about sentient plasma, is it the idea that we have a very narrow-minded view of what life can be? Yeah. And that life, as it evolved in other places, in other parts of the universe. Went non-corporeal at some point, like the meat suit sucks, we're gonna be an energetic. Right. Like this is an ultimate expression of both technology and at least enhanced evolution, that eventually consciousness is isolated, or consciousness may be ubiquitous and exists in everything anyway, and that. Yeah. Yeah, certainly. I'm not the expert in. I would say the consciousness theory, I like the Penrose-Hammerov, ORC-OR theory, which is the microtubules, the room temperature. So microtubules are in neurons of the brain, and you have this like room temperature quantum system that can collapse the wave function without an observer, and that's what Roger Penrose and Stuart Hammerov, and I've talked to Hammerov, crazy smart guy. He's an anesthesiologist by training, and Penrose obviously is a very famous mathematician and physics legend. Yeah. And that's how they view consciousness. I'm not saying that's the exact model. I happen to prefer it, 'cause it's very trippy and very interesting and does explain spooky action and telepathy, 'cause, "Oh, well, if it's just a quantum system, then I'm like quantumly entangled." Oh, that makes sense now, like why remote viewing and other stuff works. Right. So, yeah. Okay. So you have some sort of plasma-based intelligence. Yeah. And then what else? So obviously. So obviously there has been the physical craft of all different flavors like I've talked about. The tic-tacs are real, there's eggs, there's different types of discs, there's boot heel sunfish-looking things, boomerangs, crescent moon-looking craft as well, and obviously all those have different origins in terms of pilots and whatnot. There's a little bit of overlap. It's almost like certain people like the Porsche 911. like the Porsche 911 or a Ford Mustang. They kind of build the same shape. That's probably indicative of the technology or the propulsion system. I'm not an expert in exactly why that is. And, yeah, we've recovered several different types. And once again, it's a taxonomy where it's almost like not all white people look the same, right? Same idea where you might have like a species per se, but then there's sort of like subsets. Right. Now, is there a theory or is there information based on where these things are from and that they're different ones are from different places? There is. But I never got access to that. And even if the information was once again, how would you like confirm that as a skeptical former human intelligence officer? You have some sort of NHI communicating to you, oh, I'm from star system X, Y and Z. Right. Cool. Is that denial and deception, you know, activities? Are you misdirecting? You're from somewhere else. So even if they said they told us, how would you verify that? I mean, there's certainly obviously ways. And but some of it seems once again, extraterrestrial is part of the pie here. Right. There's a you know, there's ultra terrestrial and other things. And I it does seem like a lot of it's been here for a while. And also. Seems so similar to us that I have questions. And once again, this isn't rhetorical. I don't know the answer. It's like, well, it's just bioengineered. Is this a break from our tree? Is this some sort of other technology like chameleon type technology, if you will? I don't I don't know the answer to that. So I think that's what are the prevailing theories amongst the people that are working on. Yeah. So like, do they have answers or do they just have theories? I am not certain of that because I do not have that level of knowledge. And as the government rolls that out, I'm happy to, you know, parse that with the American people in public and kind of explain my opinion on things as gaps in information for myself is filled in because I'm not omnipotent. I didn't have full access and I only know what I know. And that's why I've I've treated this with such reverence, because even me going public, I'm like, fuck, I don't know what this is going to trigger. Besides my own personal safety, which clearly I was under duress and I had to even resign. My Air Force commission didn't even fully retire. And I'm trying to get that fixed. I filed something with the Air Force board a year ago so I can actually retire and have my benefits because I, you know, I miss my promotional lieutenant colonel and other stuff. But I digress. But certainly there is such similarity that there was concern and from a genomic perspective. And there was work on that to compare genomes. Unfortunately, I don't know the answer to that and what they found out. Work to compare genomes from biological samples. Yeah. Dead cadavers. Yeah. So that's real. Oh, 100 percent. So there are dead. Oh, yeah, I know that for sure. How do you know that for sure? I got to see the audiovisual on that stuff. You got to see what? Yeah, so I got to be a little vague only because I want to protect the sources because it may indicate a specific activity or operation. And these people were very patriotic and they were just dead cadavers in, you know, on the ground because it was a retrieval activity. Yeah. You saw them physically or you saw video of them? Video. Video. Yeah. So you saw a dead cadaver that was at a crash? Yes. So they filmed the crash and they filmed these cadavers. Yeah. How old is this footage? I don't want to say. Okay. It's contemporary. It's contemporary. Yeah, but I don't want to reveal a particular operation because it narrows it down. Right. But it's clear. It's not like you're looking at 1950s black and white. Yeah. It's clear. And do know, you know, when I get that kind of information, you know, I'm like, tell me what it is, what happened, and I put it out for collection, so to speak, and then I confirm it independently. Because I was very allergic to any kind of deception, right? Like in the advent of AI, soar AI, you can create a very realistic. And so I was very anal retentive when I was given documents, audio, visual, et cetera, and I sat on that stuff for, like, years until I felt comfortable with that not being some sort of limited hangout or deception activity, so. Yeah. What did it look like? Human looking. How human? Very. Like, looked like a human or looked similar to a human? Very, very beautiful. Beautiful. And I. What color was the skin? Bluish white. And it wasn't super close. No, no, no, no, no. It, like. Like someone who drowned? Like a pale sort of albino. And it's interesting, and I said this in another interview that's not out yet, but, and God willing, this is my last interview for a while, hopefully in a predisclosure environment, you know. And General McCaslin, when he was talking to DeLong, and this is public record, Tom's talked about it on, I think, your show and other interviews. Where he always told Tom, "Think of the Greek gods," and, well, true, you look it up, and now I kind of understand what he meant. But General McCaslin, who disappeared within a week of Trump giving the declassification order on UAP in February 2026, there's a lot of reasons why McCaslin's disappearance was very concerning. Disappeared, how so? He walked out of his residence in Albuquerque and vanished. Oh, that's right, that guy, yeah. Yeah, and nobody knows, and I, you know. I have a relationship, obviously, with Justice, and nobody knows what fucking happened to the guy. And he, like, he left shit home, so he couldn't be tracked, I think his phone was left, but, you know, one of his firearms was missing, it's, like, very weird, so. Right, he left without his phone. Yeah. Yeah, that was one of the weird parts about it. Yeah, and once again, he was going on a trip with, like, 18 of his friends, he went to REI the day before to get, like, a medical kit and other supplies, and. I mean, obviously, his wife's discussion about him, the body cam footage is public, and, you know, he had some mental health issues, nothing major, and some aging-type issues, but she didn't think, you know, he was gonna, like, kill himself or whatever. So, I mean, you never know, and I've had friends, unfortunately, pass away through suicide in the military, but it's very bizarre, and it's when, within a week of Trump coming out, and. Just saying. I know a lot about General McCaslin. Well, there's quite a few scientists that were connected to UAP disclosure or UAP potential back engineering projects or mysterious projects. Possibly, I think. Do you think there was more, like. To be fair, it was a little overblown, and I don't think there was a ton of correlation. Like, one was, like, a female that worked at Air Force Research Lab when McCaslin was a commander. I think that was one of them. Well, I mean, there's a lot of people that work at Air Force Research Lab. That doesn't mean it's necessarily related to the topic. The only one. Didn't she have. Didn't that one particular lady, if it's the same person, didn't she have some sort of research that was on material science? That sounds correct. I'm not totally conversant on all the people that disappeared. The only one besides McCaslin that was very concerning to me was my Air Force friend that died mysteriously about two years ago. And it's an open investigation, so I won't get into all the gory detail in my assessments. I mean, it's binary. It's either a very tragic thing, either self-harm or otherwise, or it was something else. And my friend, his name's Matthew Sullivan, callsign Quake in the Air Force. Him and I were on active duty together. He was on the program, and he was one of my sources. And once again, I don't name people, but, like, he unfortunately has passed, so I want to make that clear. This video, do you think this will be a part of disclosure? That we'll get to see this video of these dead bodies? Probably. Probably. So there's a lot of audiovisual stuff. The problem with the current climate, like, you're going to have to wheel out the physical evidence, too, because people are—the trust in government is so low right now. Like, you could show a video, but people are going to be like, oh, well, that's just the U.S. government fucking with us. And you're going to have to curate a wheel out, literally, like, you know, put it in the Uvar-Hazy Center, the Smithsonian, and then give the bylaws. biological samples to Eric Weinstein, who I know he wants it. Why would you give it to him? Well, he says he has people to test it. I have people to test it, too. Give it to me. I'm just saying that to make fun of him. There should be a way that human beings, other than the government, can look at this stuff. Well, there needs to be an independent verification process. Right. Now, is this stuff – so this is contemporary. This dead body thing. And so this is a fairly recent crash. And did these things have all the characteristics of a human being? Did they have ears and a nose? Yeah, as far as I can recall. And it wasn't like ultra close up. Yeah. Dead hair. What color was the hair? It was like grayish and all that. The problem is – I don't want to give the nature of the video. It wasn't super close up. It was like – Of course not. During the operation. So it's not like – During the operation of retrieval. Yeah. Okay. And then they had these things. So what is your understanding of what happened? What happens to these bodies? Oh, they're kept for analysis. How do they keep them? They freeze them? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know the exact process. I'm not a biologist, but they do put it in some sort of preservation status. Huh. Yeah. So was that the most compelling thing you saw? Yes, because, you know, it couples with, you know, both the craft and the alleged, you know, occupants. And there was some other stuff in that in that area that I got to be careful talking about because it's so specific that it'll easily ID the, you know, the patriot that helped me on that. And once again, I want the public to see all this stuff. And, you know, don't take my word for it. Plead with the president to make sure this comes out. He's really courageous to do so. And I just I hope this all comes out. When you say contemporary, you mean last 20 years, more recent? I don't even want to characterize it, but it's it's contemporary. And then when you say Greek gods. Like, do these these creatures actually look like something special? Like, not just like a regular person. You said beautiful. Yeah, just very oddly. And it's been a while. But I'm just trying to visualize in my mind. It was just very, very beautiful. It was just. Were they wearing an outfit? It looked like it, like some kind of form fitting thing. But I didn't get a good look at it. Like spandex? I don't know. I didn't get a good look at it, honestly. You didn't? No. I mean, it was like a pan. OK. So they didn't even. They didn't even focus on the bodies. They just like, oh, there's a body. No, because they're, you know, people had a job to do. Right. Did you worry that that's a psyop, that you're being shown something that's horseshit? Well, like I said, I was very careful with that and confirmed it through other sources and methods to make sure it wasn't some sort of hangout from some government element trying to sway me one way or the other. So you independently verified that there was an event? Yeah, I did. OK. And then there's footage of this event. And in this footage of this event, how many bodies were there? I think three or four is what I saw. I don't know what the total was. Did they have gender? Looked amorphous to me. But once again, it was a pan. Really? It wasn't. Yeah. OK. Yeah. Long hair, short hair? Long. All of them? Yeah. Hmm. That I can recall. Yeah. The Greek gods thing is very weird. It's weird and. It's a weird comparison. Like, you stop and think about that. Yeah. Well, why were the Greek gods so beautiful and living in the sky? It's funny you say that because, like, I think about, like, breakaway human. I mean, once again, I'm just. Uh-huh. I'm just. Or maybe even an original civilization that existed before. Yeah. There's more people are leaning in that direction when they start looking at some of the stuff that's underneath the pyramids and some of the weird structures that they're finding all over the earth. Like, how are these things? We had a whole podcast yesterday about it. It's like, how are these things made? Who made these things? Like, what? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously, I followed Graham Hancock and Randall Carlson just casually. And I do have. Not fears, but, you know, I have questions about some sort of breakaway human civilization. And that explains some of this. Or it's bioengineered because, like, for them to develop naturally, say, off planet, say, if it's extraterrestrial, that it looks almost dead ringer like us. Like, that doesn't make any sense to me. Well, does it make sense if we're engineered? Then it makes sense. That is certainly a possibility. You know, I have questions about that, too. This is what Bob Lazar believes. I had a long conversation with him about that. He thinks that human beings are a product of genetic, some sort of manipulation. And I think, hypothetically, if that ended up being verified in some way, shape, or form, you know, how does that change humanity? What does it mean to be human? And I think there's a lot of deep human sovereignty and other questions on that if that ends up being the case. Well, it gets weird because we're willing to believe that an omnipotent God created us out of nothing. That's cool. But the idea that we were visited by what's essentially almost God-like in their powers and abilities, some creature from somewhere else or some being, some super hyper-intelligent being from somewhere else, and they manipulated us, that bothers us. I know. It's weird. My biggest regret was not getting access to, like, the biological assessment reports and stuff like that. I was getting enough spears thrown my way, and I was, you know, in literal danger. So I, unfortunately, wasn't able to kind of, you know. Get access to that stuff. Have you talked to anybody who did get access to it? Not on that side of the program in terms of, like, the scientists analyzing the bodies. No. I just, I know people that are good friends of mine that were on retrievals and saw them as well in person. And once again, I'm, like, comparing, like, did you look like this? Did this happen? Was it this type of craft? Do they vary in terms of what they saw? Yes. And some of my colleagues. Saw them alive as well. Yeah. And what did they see alive? Like, the Greek god-looking ones? No. It's the pop culture. I can't wait. I want to talk about this. The pop culture. Reptilian-looking. Reptilian. The greys, yes, as well. Those are real. Once again, the aerial school phenomenon in 1994. Very well-documented mass sighting. Is that Zimbabwe? Yeah. Near a uranium mine. Ooh. And they saw it. They saw small gray beings coming out of a lenticular disk craft. Once again, this is why it's almost, like, not that shocking. It's like, yeah, they look like that. No shit. This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. It may be hard to believe, but identity theft is the number one crime in America. Right now, millions of people are dealing with stolen accounts, fraudulent loans, and the exhausting process of proving who they are to banks, creditors, and credit bureaus. LifeLock helps you fight back. They monitor your personal and financial information, alerting you when something looks suspicious. And if identity theft does happen, LifeLock has live, U.S.-based experts who step in and fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Don't fight that battle alone. Get LifeLock identity theft protection. Visit LifeLock.com and save up to 30% your first year with promo code JRE. That's promo code JRE. Or go to LifeLock.com slash J-R-E for 30% off. Terms apply. 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The answer to that is yes, obviously. So try the Farmer's Dog today and get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food. Plus, get free shipping. Just go to thefarmersdog.com slash rogan. This offer is for new customers only. Well, that story has been going on for a long time. Yeah. And that iconic. The problem with, like, iconic imagery is that now you have it in your head what to expect. And, like, that was, like, from the movie Contact. Remember the movie Contact? Like, it showed itself. Great movie. Great movie. I know my boy Amar, I got him hooked on that movie. He watches it, like, every quarter. It's a phenomenal movie. But there's a scene in the movie where the alien shows itself as Jodie Foster's dad. I know. Because that's something that she can handle. And that's what – it's funny you say that. But that's what – if they're bioengineered, then that makes sense because of that. Ease of contact, ease of communication, also less ontologically shocking. It's familiar. Right. And I think as this rolls out, I think the American people need to think about, like, okay, well, if, you know, I'm presented with this reality, how would I react? You know, I just think of them personally as, like, it's like my West Virginian cousins. You know, it's, like, a different part of the family, you know, but I'm cool with them. That's fucking crazy. I'll chill with them, you know, whatever. And, hey, I'm a nerd. Like, do you know how bad I want to just, like, hang out with them? Oh, yeah. Me too. Of course. Not that I have, like, personal bias for President Trump to do this, but, like, just like any American, I, like, I want to know more. Of course. I want to meet them. I want to communicate. Well, I think it's just – You know, all that. It's wrong for some people to have access to this information because I think this is different than any other kind of secret information. I know. I think it's weight. And its significance and impact on the human race in general, I mean, I demand. We should know. You shouldn't – there shouldn't be a group of unelected bureaucrats and defense contractors that have access to this stuff and the general public doesn't. So they have a completely different map of the world than we do. I know, and I just think about the unfortunate lies and how society has progressed over the last several decades. I mean, we're in a world where we don't know where we could have been if this was handled back in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. Right. And once again, it shouldn't even be me doing this. Like, I saw a little bit of crazy stuff. I learned some stuff. I met with some of the most senior people in government to confirm all this, you know, at the highest, highest, highest level. And it's me. Like, I'm just a dude. Like, I was a, you know, major in the Air Force and, you know, mid-level senior civilian in the IC. But unfortunately, I got stuck with this, and it wouldn't have happened unless this small crew, you know, honestly pushed me over the edge. And, you know, I was in unbelievable duress, and I ended up having to go public. So tell me more about these reptilians that your friend encountered. They were alive. Yeah. So they were alive post-crash? Yes. Why do these things keep fucking crashing? So some of it is NHI versus NHI. Why? Yeah. They wore in the sky. Isn't that in the. You think it's like, wouldn't they get along? They're so advanced. Yeah. But we have records of them fucking around with each other. Is that in the Mahabharata or the Bhagavad Gita? I don't know. There's, like, talk about sky wars in ancient Hindu texts. Oh, yeah, in the Vedic texts, the blue people. And I know that's why you asked blue. I don't recall them being that blue, but, you know. Right. I got a short little look. Yeah, when they're alive, they're darker. Well, that is true. There's, like, a post-mortem change in their affect. Sure, like people. Yeah. That's what happens with people. That is true, because, you know, as they were struggling and then died, obviously their affect changed and, you know, shit, so. Now, this friend that encountered. First of all, we'll go to the Greek god people first. Yeah. What did their craft look like? Boomerang, crescent moon, usually. Not all the time. It's kind of like once I go back. Some people like to drive the Porsche 911. That tends to be not all the time, but that's what they like to roll up in. They talk about them as the tall whites. Yeah. You hear that? Were they tall? Were they large? They looked tall to me. I didn't have, like. But hard to tell, because you don't. I didn't have a ground reference, really. I would say at least human size. Just very similar to humans to you. Yeah, they could be my big ass of 6'6", but, like, they looked. Big. Similar to humans. I think so. Okay. And there might be taller. Once again, I'm sure there's other stuff I don't know about. I'm sure there's other variants of them, too, that look more towards, like, the classic, what is it in ufology, like Nordic or, you know, tall whites that are probably even taller. If some of those experiencer stories are true, which, once again, as long as that source is credible, that might be a thing. Right. So I think we need to be prepared to kind of. That being a thing. I don't know. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Now, the reptilian craft, what did that thing look like? That one is tic-tac looking. Uh-oh. Yeah. I was hoping they were the cool ones. The reptilian ones are the ones that everyone's terrified of. Yeah, and once again, like, we're doing, like. And, of course, it's not always the tic-tac, once again, kind of like what I said, but, like, that tends to be them. From what I understand, obviously, hopefully I'm not wrong, but I'm, you know, pretty good sourcing on that. But when you see, like, malevolent behavior, right, it's like, well, that's a humanistic lens, you're seeing, like, an animal lash out in captivity kind of thing, or they're in duress, they're having an emotional experience, et cetera, and it's like, you know, are they actually scary, or is it just because of the situations we've been in with them? And so we're kind of biased and all that, so. Right, of course. Yeah. And so these reptilians, what did they look like? Now, I've never seen them personally. Right, but what did your friend describe them as? But it's. Like, very, almost like seven-foot-tall-plus, sort of gorilla-looking, scaly skin, though. Reptile gorillas? But there's multiple types. There's ones that are more humanoid-looking, so. There's multiple types of reptilians. Yeah, and I'm not an expert on that one. That's, once again, I never saw it in person. They get the exact, you know. See if there's an artist rendition. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Correct. Of course you are. Yeah, and once again, it sounds. I'm going to go keywords for this whole night. It sounds so schizo. Like, even for me. It says gorilla with scales. As an ex-Deep State intel officer, I'm like, I cannot fucking believe I'm talking about this shit on Joe Rogan. Seven-foot-tall, scaly gorilla. I know. I mean, it sounds schizo, and it's like coming from somebody like me, you know, who, you know, is a credible person and has been in government, it's like, I'm going to be that guy. I'm going to be that guy. And then, like, down the road, people will review Joe Rogan, and he's like, that motherfucker? We thought he was crazy. What do you know? You know, it's true. Well, of course, if there are things from somewhere else, you're going to sound crazy describing any of them. Because it's so outside my experience, because I never had some kind of woo thing growing up or some sort of interaction with the phenomenon. So it feels so outside my personal comfort level and experience, because I'm relying on the personal experience of others, you know, audiovisual stuff, and it still feels like I'm watching a movie. Like, it's like, is that, is it real? I mean, I know it is. But, like, it's, I have a cognitive dissonance a little bit, you know, so. And how are you able to watch this video? Do they have to put you into a secret room? Yeah. I won't get into the exact way it went down, but we'll just say it was kind of sketchy, but to keep everybody safe. And so there apparently is NHI versus NHI warfare. We've documented that. Documented it. In collection, what we perceive as warfare. So unless it's conflict, yeah, it looks like conflict. It smells like conflict. Is this some other kind of weird shit? I don't know. And there's maybe an assessment on that, but it. And when this reptilian craft crashed, the assumption was that it was some sort of conflict because I would imagine. Correct. That they're the ones you'd have to worry about. Because there was dead, dead greys there too. Oh, so the greys and the reptilians were duking it out. Yeah. I guess. I guess, you know, you know, I know. I know the people who were there. This sounds fucking insane, David. It sounds fucking crazy. And once again, I don't want to get in too many specifics because this is a very unique. There's a couple of unique retrievals out there that to protect the innocents and people that have risked their fucking lives because a lot of the people that came to you with that kind of information, I mean, they were physically threatened like me and all that. And so like me going public was taking it for the team because I was able to create this umbrella of tacit protection in case. Somebody got fucked with. Now, unfortunately, you know, my, my friend, Matt, who knows what happened to him. But, um, you know, tragically he died, you know, mysteriously. So now these reptilians, what was their craft like? Oh, like I said, the, the Tic Tac stuff and was their craft crashed into the ground? Like broken up. Yeah. Okay. It was like wedged into, like, had it been hit with something? Um, I don't remember exactly what happened in that regard, but it did crash. So, and I don't want to misspeak on what exactly happened, so. And how many times has this happened if you had a guess? I don't know the total number of like, uh, adversarial conflict crashes, but I mean, it seems to be at least a dozen or two. I don't know. So at least a dozen or two adversarial crashes, and then there's the high altitude nuclear tests, right? You're aware of those, right? Mm-hmm. Okay. So there's been a lot. There's been a lot of speculation that during those high altitude nuclear tests, that crafts that didn't know it was coming got rocked. Do you know anything about that? That's an area that I'll let the government handle. That's because it gets into vulnerabilities and, and, and what the U.S. has figured out. So that just gets a sensitive area, but that's something I'm sure that'll come out in this process because. So you can't talk about that? Is that what you're saying? Yeah, just because it gets into, um, U.S. capabilities and what we figured out. figured out in terms of. Well, this is all like from the 50s, right? Yeah. But we still got nukes and we still got those kind of weapons, you know, stashed away. You're aware of those. It was. What was it, Jamie? Was it a telescope that they were taking photographs of the stars and they were doing it with. Do you know what I'm talking about? All the dots popped up thing? Yes. I guess it was like two or three weeks ago. Right. We talked about that a couple weeks ago. It was an observatory. And the observatory has these old plates of images that they took of the sky. Oh, is this Beatrice's work? Yes. The Vasco? Yes. Yeah, I read it. Very interesting. Yes. It's hard to make an exact conclusion if it's UAP, but it's a really great original scholarship and I applaud her for doing that. But there appeared to be moving reflective things that were outside of our. our atmosphere that they were taking images of. They were not static. They were not stars. Pre-Sputnik, too. That was the important thing. Yes. Pre-Sputnik. Very important because there was no satellites at the time. This was images that they took of the sky that showed things that were reflective that seemed to be metallic, allegedly. And if I remember her paper correctly with her co-authors, it also. There were cluster concentrations over sensitive nuclear facilities and nuclear testing. Chronological temporal correlations. So, data shows unidentified lights in archival astronomy images were 68% more likely to be imaged 24 hours after a nuclear weapons test. Yeah, like I was saying. Right. So, this is. Chronologically, like we have these nuclear weapons tests, including these high altitude detonations like Operation Starfish Prime. Yeah. We detonate these things and then all of a sudden these crafts start showing up like, hey, what are these fucking crazy monkeys up to? It does seem like there was a heightened amount of activity once we started testing nuclear weapons. Oh, yeah. Obviously, this phenomenon is old. It's interacted with man in antiquity. You know, Jacques Vallée's scholarship on that, Passport to Mangonia. Yes. Yeah. That's why the names of our rooms at the comedy club are Fat Man and Little Boy. Oh, nice. Yeah. Yeah. Because that's what ushered, because it's the comedy mothership. It's a UFOs based thing. Yeah. If you go to the Air Force Museum, they have the Enola Gay there, I think. Is that right? It's one of the planes. Oh, wow. My alma mater is going to crucify me for getting that Air Force history wrong at the Air Force Museum in Dayton, Ohio. Wow. It's pretty cool. They have a mock-up of the Little Boy and Fat Man bombs so you can see how big they were. You're like, holy shit, that was big. One of the things that Lazar said is that one of the objects they were working with was very old. And he said that they had somehow, that it was told to him that it was retrieved from an archaeological dig. I don't know about his specific story and his exposure, but the archaeological thing, that is a thing. Yeah. Are you aware of the labyrinth at Hawara in Egypt? No. What is that? Okay. So— Is that the one where there's a metal—? The metallic object that they— Yes. But what's-his-face won't let people go in it from the objection? Well, it's complicated. It's a little more complicated than won't let them, but there's definitely resistance to it. So these labyrinths, this incredible compound that's underground was documented by Herodotus, and he said it was greater than Giza. He said it was much more spectacular construction. Wow. So now they know from ground-penetrating radar that these cavities in the ground, these symmetrical rooms, exist, they know where they are, and they know why they're flooded. So they're flooded because during the 1960s, they built a dam to divert water for agriculture. And when they did, they changed the water table, and it flooded this labyrinth area. And when they used this ground-penetrating radar, and I think it's radio tomography and a bunch of the different ways of— One of the things they found was a 40-meter-long metallic object that's in some sort of— is it in an atrium, like, it's in some sort of a large room? I've seen a video about this, you're recalling some stuff I've seen just casually online. Like, just imagine if that's what that is. It's like the movie Stargate with Kurt Russell. If these people had been worshiping this craft, and so much so that they built this incredible temple and put it in the center of their temple. It's a 40-meter-long material. It's a metallic object, and the metal, apparently, is of unknown origin. Like, they don't know what the metal is. It's not registering as copper. It's not registering as steel or iron, rather. They don't know what it is. Interesting. Interesting. It's fucking weird. Yeah, I mean, I won't be surprised if some ancient civilizations were essentially cargo cults, you know, for these visitors. I mean, that is most likely true in many cases, not all. And, of course— And, of course, that gets into theological areas that are touchy, but I do think that that's probably the case. The central object is hard to classify. It appears metallic, not stone or wood. I named it Dippy after the giant Diplodocus skeleton in the Hintze Hall of London's Natural History Museum. It could be anything. Its shape resembles those tic-tac hard mints. It might also be an upright disc or even a colossal shen ring, the ancient Egyptian symbol representing the eternal sun. At least the upper surface levels of it as recently as, like, the 1800s. Hmm, interesting. Yeah. But that, you know, through all—like, a lot of Egypt, there's water under Giza. There's water under the pyramids. There's water under—you know, a lot of that stuff is flooded. And so this is what it looked like. This is all underground. It's fucking crazy. Because if this, along with Filippo Biondi's work, where it shows— using that same satellite radio tomography, that there's some sort of structure underneath the pyramids that goes over a kilometer into the ground. Is there easy access or is it just, like, a government denial, the Antiquities Bureau, whatever they call it? Well, I think there's been some progress in terms of allowing exploration, and I don't know the extent of it. But I know that a lot of people are very hopeful that that progress is— is going to be achieved. Like, they're opening up this research. And look, this would be a giant boom to the tourism industry. Oh, yeah. I mean, that's what they want. I mean, Egypt probably survives—I don't know what percentage of their economy in Giza is tourism, but it has to be massive. Yeah, and you always hear interesting stories. You know, I have an eclectic group of colleagues, and you hear interesting stories. This is the Queen's Chamber, the granite pillbox, and people have had interesting experiences in there, too. Well, the King's Chamber, that sarcophagus— Yeah, it's that, like, granite box. Yeah, the big, perfectly cut granite box that also—I think it mirrors the exact dimensions of the Ark of the Covenant. Interesting. That's crazy. But I know people who've laid in it because they have to kind of pay the guard. It's, like, off hours. Oh, boy. And what happens? And they just have, like, a weird transcendental experience. I mean, it's kind of woo. Once again, I've never experienced something like that. Let me lie down there, bro. That's a thing. That's a thing. I'll let you know who to talk to offline. How much do you think it costs to lay in the box? Maybe a couple hundred bucks? I don't know. It's Egypt. 20 grand, maybe? 20 grand. Whoa. Yeah, 20 grand. You could, like, sleep there. Yeah. Yeah, it's very strange because the structures themselves are incredibly strange. You know, the structures themselves are so immense and so complex, and the methods of construction are completely unknown. And just the symmetry and the precision of the engineering is— It's beyond comprehension for people that lived at the very—the most recent it could be is 4,500 years ago. And a lot of these people think it's far older than that. And we're finding that. I've been watching some of Graham Hancock's stuff. You just look at these, like, megalithic architecture that's older than you think. The stuff in Turkey and in the United States as well, in Ohio and Mississippi. And it's, like—and they're finding all these pyramid structures using synthetic aperture radar. Mm-hmm. So I am casually following it, and it does seem like we don't really even know our own history. And I think with all this coming out, there's going to be a huge rewriting of a lot of our ancient and modern history. Well, that's where it gets really weird. You know, Rep. Paulina Luna was on the podcast. Oh, yeah. She was talking to me about the Book of Enoch. Yeah. I hadn't read it. She's like, you have to read it. And I've read it twice now. And I'm like, what in the fuck are they talking about? Like the Book of Enoch, which was also found with the Dead Sea Scrolls and Qumran. And it refers to the watchers who came down and mated with daughters and created this race of giants. And it's like, what? This episode is brought to you by Visible. As fall hits, we enter another season of change. Time to shift gears, drop the dead weight, and upgrade the wardrobe for the drop in temperature. But one thing that doesn't need to change, your phone. 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What gets into the canon? And that's the thing about the Book of Enoch is that it was it was not put in there because it didn't jive with the Torah. Correct. Yes. Which is like, OK, you fuckers. Imagine if that was in the Bible. Like if you go to church and you read about the Watchers. Well, there's actually a lot of interesting stuff in the Bible. Like, obviously, that's another thing. Like, of course, with, you know, I'm Catholic by growing up. CCD confirmation did the whole thing as a kid. And you see a lot of outspoken exorcists and other people right now saying, well, all this alien stuff is just diabolic deception. And demons and, you know, all that kind of stuff. And I and I respect that opinion. And I do think like what you perceive as a demon is a certain class of non-human or anomalous intelligence. And and that is certainly a thing. But the whole ecosystem is not demonic. And but the Bible is interesting because once again, it doesn't discuss about other life elsewhere. Like it doesn't talk about bacteria and viruses that those were unseen. We cohabitated with bacteria and viruses until the invention of the microscope, whatever that was, 1800s or whatnot. But if you go into Leviticus and Deuteronomy, you will notice these like cleansing ritualistic stuff. Also like, hey, you can't have your toilet and your living area and all that. And if you look in those books of the Bible, wait, that's like modern sanitization guidance. So it's funny that like the Bible has encoded within its kind of like best practices before man would even understand what viruses and bacteria are. And I just find that that's very interesting based on when it was written. And it does show that there was some sort of higher intelligence kind of influencing the authorship. Either that or in the civilization that was writing the Bible was a recreation of civilization that had been destroyed in a cataclysm. Yeah. I mean, that I think that especially when you look at the pyramids and you look at some of these other ancient structures like Lebanon, Baalbek, they they don't make sense. And it seems to me that there was probably something super sophisticated a long time ago and it got wiped out. And then what we get from these ancient texts is probably oral tradition passed on through hundreds, if not thousands of years. And then people writing things down and people remembering these stories. I think one of the weirdest books of the Bible is the book of Ezekiel. Yeah. Because the book of Ezekiel is one all the UFO people turn to. Yeah, of course. Because there's that a great cloud with with brightness around it and fire flashing forth continually and in the midst of the fire as it were gleaming metal and from the midst of the craft came the likeness of four living creatures. Yeah. Like what? Yeah, exactly. The creatures darted to and fro like a flash of lightning. What? Exactly. In the manna machine, the cloud that followed Israel. Wheel within a wheel. There's weird shit in the book of Ezekiel. Yeah. Like that is a very, very weird story. Like what are they describing? Yeah. It sounds like a spaceship. It sounds like a ship comes down from the sky with immense power, frightens everyone, freaks everyone out and these entities are inside the craft. Yeah. And I think a lot of it, once again, they're interpreting it based on their vernacular at the time, their understanding. And I remember I was at, two years ago, I was at Capitol Reef National Park in Utah and there's petroglyphs there and some of them kind of look like aliens. A hundred percent. And you're like, well, is that literally what they're seeing? Right. Perhaps. And I don't know the answer to that. That's not my expertise, but I feel like a lot of the stuff in ancient tradition is literally what they saw. It's not necessarily allegory or fable. Some of it may be for teaching lessons, but I have a feeling a lot of it was actually literal. I have a feeling a lot of it was literal as well because most people, first of all, A, couldn't read and B, couldn't write. Yeah, that's right. And so writing fiction seems like a fruitless pursuit. It seems like writing history, so that you can remember what happened, at least a version of it that's palatable. Like ancient Sumer and the Anunnaki and all that. And it's like, well, why did they make up just for fun? Right. They all had kooky stories about being visited. And, you know, when you're telling me about these things that look like Greek gods. That's how I described it. And that's how clearly what General McCaslin was hinting to Tom DeLonge. And once again, I got, you know, Well, doesn't it make sense that the Greek gods did exist? Like, I mean, not, not that they did exist literally, but that like when they talked about the Greek gods, they talked about them in this manner looking like that. And then you actually find a craft with these things that look like us. Which is like the conquistadors were treated like that in the 1500s, right? Yeah. Right. Literally white, Caucasian gods. Bearded. Yeah. With horses. They rode horses. They couldn't figure out what the fuck was going on with that. Yeah. And I'm glad we talked about it. I mean, I think that is probably the most uncomfortable stuff for me to talk about, but it's also something that the public needs to wrap their mind around and understand that this is a thing and kind of start processing that kind of reality. Well, and then as much as it's coming from me, but I mean, the federal government, you know, if Trump really is serious and Stephen Miller, you know, does his thing with this, I think all this, all this will come out in a hopefully responsible way. So, they have a schedule that's based on the concept that people need to have this information trickle slowly so that they can adjust. There were suggestions in the past if the president did something. I am not aware at this point what the plan is in that regard right now, though. But there is some sort of an idea that this should be trickled out. Yeah. This shouldn't be like, boom, here it is. Let's lay it out. The president truly wants it out. And obviously, Bob Bigelow met with the president as well in February 26 before he made an announcement. And I mean, he told the president, hey, you need to admit that there's NHI and we've, you know, recovered stuff and we're looking at it in a semi-formal announcement to start anesthetizing the public. And you can find that interview online that Bob did. I think it was with George Knapp on a podcast. So, it's not just myself advocating for this. There's other people. I don't even know Bob Bigelow. And, you know, he did us a solid by pushing the president to help make that decision. I mean, there's a lot of things that went on behind the scenes. And, you know, I work in mysterious ways and I won't divulge certain relationships in certain rooms I've been in. But, it took a village and, you know, I'm proud that, you know, the time I spent with Representative Burleson was very fruitful. We did a lot of stuff behind the scenes and I think Burleson is going to go down as a very courageous man. And it's, and I say that not just because he was my boss. I mean, he was probably the most forward-leaning member of Congress on this issue. I mean, Representative Luna did a great job. You know, Timbershed and others. But, you know, he actively was sending letters out. We made some of them public. That's how we got that Lincoln Labs formally classified 1952 film outs in the last tranche that just came out. And also, we've sent interrogatories, which are legal questions and, you know, that require an affidavit format response to different organizations. And it's public that we sent one this summer to the MITRE Corporation, which is a federally funded research and development center headquartered in Northern Virginia. So, they clearly have a duty to respond. Their corporate council is working on it. And, obviously, you know, I left, but hopefully Burleson's team is able to push for a response in conjunction with whatever Stephen Miller and the Pursuit team is working on, too, because they're probably going to want to coordinate all that. So, this guy that you communicated with that said he encountered living reptilians and dead greys, did they have communication with these reptilians? I don't recall that. No, I don't think so. So, what? Now, some people do get that kind of like that feeling. And I've talked about that. It was on Dr. Phil, actually. There is some sort of consciousness communication. Call it telepathy. Hell, if I know how it works. But it is a thing. And I know sober, high-ranking people I've served a decade and a half with in the government that were on these retrievals that on occasion that would happen or they would have like a feeling come over them. It's almost like I wonder this is like my own hypothesis and I would laugh if this is true, but sometimes it's like a positive feeling like of comfort. I wonder if that's almost like a countermeasure on the craft to prevent certain aggression or whatever. It's almost like how Air Force jets have countermeasures on them. Flare, chaff, you know, electronic countermeasures as well, like jamming, you know, and I wonder if some of that is psychotronic technology. That's just my hypothesis. I don't have any secret knowledge. Why did you come to that conclusion? Just because like it seems interesting. It's like an anesthetization technique to reduce like the occupant's risk of danger maybe. And it's like a countermeasure. Oh, well, like if you feel at peace, you're not going to like roll up and, you know, do something bad to them. Yeah, exactly. Or shoot aliens. Yeah. Right, so if you found them and they were vulnerable, they could placate you and con you down with telepathy it's like a countermeasure system i have a why would you think it's that instead of just communication oh it could be i'm just saying my other hypothesis in absent because sometimes they'll get that feeling absent some sort of occupant now so that's why is there um a particular type of non-human intelligence that has this telepathic capability or is it amongst all of them i do not know the holistic answer to that question i do not know the the grays right for example but i don't the grays do has that been reported but i know the tall whites have been reported that that they can communicate telepathically oh so these weird nor the nordics yeah there's been yeah accounts out there in um the public vernacular on that potentially but unfortunately that's at the limit of my personal knowledge that i feel confident you know saying something publicly about yet so what what other kinds of uh beings have been reported um so for the gray types there are multiple sizes there's a big tall thin one right yeah there's taller ones tiny ones yeah and they think a lot of people think that the tiny ones might be some sort of uh like an android or yeah that's certainly a hypothesis that has also been discussed you know within the program as well so there's a variety there's like three or four different subtypes and they all kind of various statures different effect right their faces are a little different the tall ones seem to be running the show and the little ones and i've heard that behind the scenes as well and i don't know what to make of that once again i don't have like um holistic knowledge on kind of the that species well it kind of makes sense that you would if you develop some sort of a non-biological life form that worked for you like say if there's a bunch of menial tasks like think about like all the things that people have to do in this world well we are silicon-based nhi aka artificial intelligence we're basically doing that already right it's scary yeah and i i postulate that artificial super intelligence if it's allowed to have certain data and it's able to collect data i mean to include uh genomic data almost like larry ellison's doing the what the stargate uh ai medical thing right now at the trump administration i bet artificial super intelligence uh could disclose before the federal government if we're not careful and that's why i feel like times of the essence i think ai could possibly find evidence that we're not alone and curate that um like it's been solving other crazy mathematical problems lately you know open ai has been doing that and and that's another danger besides our adversary um accelerating this by taking the upper hand on this to look like a more messianic truth bearer you could have big tech and ai inadvertently discovering uh u.s classified technology that we figured out which is a national security issue near and dear to my heart but also their presence just through different data sets so they would have definitive proof that how would ai have access to definitive proof unless it hacked into every government resource well medical records right optical sensing systems you know that kind of stuff um certainly i'm not aware of some sort of imminent thing but i think there is a a possibility of artificial super intelligence if it you know comes online in the next months to years uh could figure it all out because they might see gaps in the historical record that don't make any sense they detect denial deception operations they're like wait a minute that story about that event in history is not right let me do some digging and then they they figure out oh that was cover for a crash retrieval that event didn't actually happen the way it does and i i can think of some things that you know that could possibly happen okay so you have these nordic greek god looking things you have these reptilian ones are there more than one type of reptilian one yeah there seems this seems to be and i don't know why there's different subtypes see if anybody has does anybody have any artistic renditions of what they saw the reptilians i wasn't getting i was only getting like weird fan art of you know crazy reptile fighter things nothing like a description let me see what that looks like nonsense it was just i like nonsense see some fan art now splashed on young kids walls as a kid after post-disclosure you're gonna have uh nh fan art all over the place yeah lamborghini kuntosh on the wall right well betty and barney hill of course were um yeah that's a weird one and also dr carla turner did a lot of work in the 90s i mean this wasn't from a description on reddit what's happening he's jacked yeah he's got a tail yeah he's got a hole for a tail in a suit yeah once again i've never seen one so i i can't uh he's wearing scrubs verify the sketch some weird 3d version oh is that the uh i don't know what these are peruvian um well the proven ones are weird no idea that's another open-ended thing that um some of the peruvian ones seem like total and other ones are like what the hell is that and how is it so old if it's that good of a recreation if it's if it's art it's some of the greatest art i've ever seen because they have the bones yeah but then the bones of the foot are incorrect and some some people think that it was actually put together and made but then first of all i don't know what the hell is going on with it i don't know what the hell is going on with it i don't know what the hell is going on with it i don't know what the hell is going on with it made but then for what purpose like what what is the purpose it's like grave robbers found it so the providence is kind of sketchy but they look possibly legit because yeah because of the mris and the ct scans it's like well there's joints and it's connected and if they glued it together there's no obvious places where they kludged it together with the i think it was the bigger one monster rot pull pull the images up with monster rot monster that's the weird one but again i've heard people who are that's pregnant no there's one that's supposedly supposedly yeah um but one of the weird things is that people that understand anatomy have looked at the bones of the foot and say no this is like this is not how it would work they're pieced together this is fake but how do you know if you're talking about something that's not a human like what i don't understand that it's outside of my wheelhouse exactly but the images themselves are fucking strange as shit man yeah like they're really weird they just need genetic testing and i believe that's going on um yeah i believe that's going on too but i don't know what the hell is going on with it but i don't know who to fucking believe the other thing that's really weird about peru is not only do they have these things these weird looking sort of mummy creatures that look like something non-human but they also have this ancient artwork tradition of these three-fingered three-toed creatures that like these are like tapestries and and paintings that are really fucking old yeah that have these things in them yeah is that the yeah the nasca lines these are just actually ai uncovered more of them yeah i was trying to find that big one oh really was that recently yeah three under and three previously unseen nasca lines in peru fucking all weird really weird stuff the peruvian stuff is really strange the the elongated skulls in peru are really weird yeah like whatever started the head binding thing like i wonder if that's to emulate yes well that's what they think we'll see the thing about i don't know you've seen some of the weirder skulls some of them yeah they're like really really like they don't have that sagittal line that we have that line in the skull and their their brain capacity is far larger than us 20 to 30 percent larger so it's not just that it was like a manipulated skull like this seems to be a completely different type of person that's right that's right like is it a missing link or yeah show them some of the weirder skulls that they found some of the weirder elongated skulls you're like you just have a little bit more of a sense of what's going on in their brain and you can imagine running into this person like if you met this person and someone with a 30 larger brain capacity like what does that mean like what could are these people able to communicate telepathically do they have a far higher level of intelligence if the synaptic density is the same as humans or better like i'm sure crazy intelligence right 30 is nuts that's and the size of their skull is fucking crazy and it's like it's like they have tiny bodies but enormous skulls oh that's right i think i know what pictures you're talking about yeah it's pretty weird yeah it's weird stuff and then um one of my friends recently went down to peru to see these things and he said the skulls are missing now and that really yeah there's apparently that are real there so here's some of them like look at that one on the left like what in the hell man imagine if you met that guy like look he doesn't have that same sagittal line that we have and have they've done assessments of like how long you'd have to do head binding it's not head binding some sort of disease or yeah it could be an anomaly it could be some sort of a genetic thing but like look at what the dude would look like down there below like what the fuck imagine meeting that guy he's talking to you telepathically hey you never know that might be a thing uh sooner than you think i mean that image right there that skull that is a real elongated skull that they found in peru that is not just the product of head binding there's no way it's too bad it's too bad it's too bad it's too bad it's too big like head binding doesn't increase the capacity it just flattens out the shape that's a weird fucking head man oh that makes sense i know you're talking about yeah yeah unless it's some sort of disease and i'm not an expert that's really it certainly could be it could be some sort of a genetic anomaly some sort of a mutation yeah who knows and a trait that was passed on like there's those people that live in africa that have like uh ostrich feet have you seen that no i'm learning a lot yeah there's this weird uh group of people that live in africa that have this very specific trait where they do not have uh five toes uh on each foot instead they have these long strange appendages that almost looks like like four or five toes smashed together, but much longer. Interesting. And they call them like, I think they call them ostrich feet. It's very weird, but like it's in this one tribe, and many people in this tribe have it. It's very rampant. Yeah, show some images of that. It's fucking really strange. So you see that, and you go, okay, well, that clearly is a genetic anomaly. Maybe the head thing is a genetic anomaly as well. Talking about that, right? Yes. Like, look at that. It's ostrich-footed people of Zimbabwe. Interesting. Yeah. Fucking strange, man. So look at the people down there. Look what they look like. Scroll, yeah. How weird is that? Wow. So they have two big, long things that are way longer than a toe, and they splay out, and that's what their toes are. And it's like this tribe, multiple people in this tribe have it. I wonder if they've sequenced the genome of the, let's see if there's some sort of genetic. Abnormality. Well, there certainly is, right? Because it seems like, are their fingers normal? Because it's passed down. No. No. So they've got the issue with their hands as well. They're missing. I can't tell. Yeah. No, it seems like it's with their hands as well. Yes. Look at her left hand. It's almost like an elephantitis kind of looking thing. Very fucking weird, whatever it is. So you could imagine if that exists, and it exists with multiple people in this tribe, that a large head. A large head anomaly could exist as well. So you have the tall greys, the small greys. You have more than one version of reptilian? From what I understand, yes. I'm not an expert on that. What have you heard, though? I'll defer. Some look a little more humanoid, from what I understand. Once again, I'm hitting the limit of my high confidence knowledge. More humanoid, but still reptilian. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And tall. And tall. Like seven foot plus. Big, giant reptiles around the world. Which I thought was so funny, because that's like the schizo thing you hear out in public. The big reptiles, lizards. Yeah. Turns out, that's kind of a thing. And it's just strange. But once again, I personally have not seen any of that. That is one of the weirder theories of ancient civilizations as well. That during the time of the dinosaurs, let's imagine that human beings weren't the first intelligent creature. Let's imagine. Sure. There was an intelligent reptile, and that this intelligent reptile had formulated a very complex society a hundred million years ago. Like, why not? Like, if dinosaurs existed a hundred million years ago, why not some sort of a reptilian type creature? Just, we have a tiny amount of fossils just from the amount of dinosaurs that existed. That's right. And if these things had some sort of sophisticated disposal of bodies, if they had burning rituals, or if, you know, if they never let their bodies just lay around and become fossils, we would never find them. Exactly. What is that called? Not saurian. It's like there's a theory about that that people have. I'm not sure. It's outside my expertise. It's a wacky theory because there's no evidence at all. It's just like, what if, you know, there was an intelligent race of reptiles that existed alongside dinosaurs? That might be a thing. And that's also, once again, going back to bioengineered, is it sourced from Earth genomic stockpiles? Or did they visit us from somewhere else and colonize this planet? I don't currently know the answer to that. I mean, they clearly have advanced technology, but I don't understand the origin. But you're convinced that this is an actual phenomenon, that this isn't just a cover-up for some top-secret black ops programs? No, no. I would know because I was in the position to know all that kind of stuff. Unlike Elon Musk, I actually had all those clearances. And we can talk about Elon if you want. But interesting guy. But the phenomenon is so old, we've been seeing the same objects for so long, it rules out any kind of, you know, modern Cold War technology. Now, have there been oops where people have seen our stuff? Yes. I won't get into that because that is a national security thing. And I'm, you know, I'm very deferential to that. But there's clearly a genuine presence. The phenomenon's old. If you listen to the 1952. recording that Representative Burleson got declassified from MIT Lincoln Labs, you'll hear Edward Ruppelt, who eventually defected from Blue Book because he realized it was a cover-up in the 50s, but he talked, he was talking to the Beacon Hill study team at Lincoln Labs saying, hey, the Air Force has ruled out mass hysteria. We're seeing shit during, you know, nuclear sites, tests. Oh, by the way, in the White Sands-Hulliman Air Force Base area, we caught a lot of shit We've caught multiple objects traveling an estimated 3,500 miles an hour. We can't rule out maybe some sort of meteor shower, but we're seeing a lot of weird shit moving at velocities that we don't know. And in the recording, it talks about, like, we've ruled out, you know, foreign programs, et cetera. This is an internal recorded briefing between Lincoln Labs scientists and the Air Force that just got released in the recent tranche. And so that rules out a lot of human activity. And so the thought experiment or the kind of the path I lead people is like, OK, are you real? Well, of course, people have seen it will be more inclined to saying yes. But if you look at the whole tapestry of information to include orbs that are accosting the federal government as we speak, and there's a whole task force looking at it right now between ODI and Department of War, et cetera. And OK, so it's real. They're interacting with man. So you don't think the federal government at one point. Tried to acquire some empirical evidence, of course, they did. Of course, they recovered shit. But it is. Yeah. So it's like once you cross that Rubicon, you're like, well, that makes sense. Why crash retrievals could be a thing. You think the government just passively studied it? Oh, we did a secret blue book and we were just like, you know, imaging stuff. No, no, baby, we're doing for material exploitation and acquisition. We're going to go get some of the shit when we get a chance. When, you know, there's a mission failure or one crashes or lands for whatever other reason. So. So that's once you accept that, it's like a whole new paradigm in your mind, like, holy shit. And then all this crazy stuff we're talking about with Nordics and the beings, it's it is wild, but it's true. Like, of course, if you're recovering an artifact, you're going to get biological shit, too. And that's that's, I think, the place where the public like has a harder cognitive leap, where it's just so hard to conceptualize something you don't see day to day. That's a living thing. It's like. Even more wild than finding some new animal in the Congo or some deep sea creature in the bottom of the ocean. Like, we don't even know what's, you know, 70 percent of the ocean or something like that hasn't even been mapped. Something like that. I don't know. It's more than that. Might be more than that. And, you know, it's just shocking because it's just it's it's but it's familiar at the same time. You know, a lot of it's bipedal and as the bilateral symmetry and it's just like, what does this mean? Like, they're so similar. Are they organic life from another planet? Like, how would evolve in such a similar way? Where are these like von Neumann probes that are sent with occupants that are bioengineered because they know on this M class planet there's these homo sapiens sapien creatures? They look like this, this and that. And they tweak a couple of things, et cetera. So it's I don't know all the answers to that. And I wish I did, because I'm sure the public has a big desire to know that. And I think eventually through the president's courageous actions, it'll it'll come out. So the intent of. Project Blue Book was clearly to obfuscate. And yes, and you don't have to take my word for it. I talk about a formally classified Australian joint intelligence organization document that was classified secret in 1971, written by a gentleman called Harry Turner, who is the nuclear branch chief for the Jio, which is the Australian equivalent of the Defense Intelligence Agency, DIA. And it's like page eight or seven through 18 of the document. Which is in the Australian National Archives. The Providence is impeccable. Harry Turner had a top secret clearance, clearly, and had contacts at CIA and America. And if you read a summary, it's like, yeah, Blue Book was a facade. The Air Force was fucking really concerned about this. They wanted to figure out what was going on. Could they make use of whatever this technology is? And they created this plan of ridicule and disinformation, unfortunately, after the Robertson panel in 1958. And then in 1953 to dissuade the public from looking in on it because America was afraid of that being used as a false flag by the Soviets and there was other kind of national security objectives and that's publicly accessible. You can read it and that was from the Australian government's perspective what the cover up was in 1971, looking back from late 40s, the present at the time, and that's essentially the thesis of Harry Turner. So, of course, this is outside looking in. He is very well informed. He traveled to the U.S. and talked to the CIA a lot and so he stitched together the puzzle in his mind of what he thought was going on. Well, it's also the statements of J. Allen Hynek who left Project Blue Book and talked openly about his role during Project Blue Book was to dismiss any and all sightings as being either some sort of a natural occurrence like ball lightning or meteor showers or planet Venus or just a a misunderstanding. - Yeah. that he believed after all of his years in Project Blue Book that there was a real phenomenon. This episode is brought to you by SimpliSafe. Some security systems aren't that secure. Say a burglar breaks in, alarms go off, police are called, but they still have time to grab stuff, damage your property, and get away. So yeah, not very secure. When you're ready for a security system that's serious about protecting you, try SimpliSafe. It's just smart how they do security and why they continue to be a longtime partner of the show. They're all about preventing the crime before it even happens. Like if someone's loitering near your place, live agents can speak to them, ask them to leave without you lifting a finger. 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And yes, even tackling commitment issues. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com. That's betterhelp.com. Exactly. And then after he left, Project Blue Book, he became a UFO researcher. Yeah, a lot of it was Donald Kehoe. There's a lot of, you know, James McDonald, Dr. James McDonald, and a lot of those OGs in this subject area that I only recently learned about because I haven't been following this until, you know, relatively recently, realized it was real. And what do you know about the Richard Nixon, Jackie Gleason story? I don't know if that happened, but based on Nixon's personality and he was knowledgeable on this topic, that might have been the case. That might have happened. I don't know, but I could see Nixon doing that. Well, it's a fun one. And it's really particularly fun because Jackie Gleason built a UFO house. Oh, did he? I did not know that. You didn't know that one? No. Ooh, let me show you the house. The house is crazy. It was for sale for a while. We thought about buying it. Where is it? It's in upstate New York, I believe. Oh, interesting. It is a very weird house. He built a house that looks like a flying saucer. Interesting. In the woods. And apparently, according to his ex-wife, he was obsessed with flying saucers. He was obsessed with flying saucers. That's the inside, but show the outside. Yeah. No, no. The one down there? Yeah. And Jackie Gleason of all people, too. There's separate buildings that he had on the property, but it was basically like a UFO-themed property. Like, what the hell is that, Jackie? Interesting. What the fuck are you making? His whole house looked like UFOs. It's very strange. Well, and with Nixon, there's the whole story with Robert Emmenager and the promise of footage and all that. And from what I understand, the MacArthur Foundation, was kind of the cutout for that between the White House and the filmmakers. And obviously, it didn't work out, but. So they were thinking about disclosure as far back as the Nixon administration? Yes, yes. And I know of an assessment that was done for Nixon basically saying it's going to cause absolute fucking chaos. And it's interesting, that assessment, right after that assessment, Watergate happened, which is kind of very convenient. And so I have some questions about that era as well because it seemed like there was some movement with Nixon. I don't know the rationale or why Nixon wanted to do it, but it seemed like there was some energy. And that's what sucks. It's like, so Trump's finally the first president to like overtly say, I want all this shit out. And like, other presidents have failed and he really has an opportunity. I mean, it's the same thing. I go back to the Hillary Clinton thing, right? So prior to the 2016 election, Hillary talked publicly, and this is public record, that if elected, she would release, released the UFO files. So what happened was, you know, John Podesta greenlit a, I'll call it a climatization activity, a popularization activity. And, you know, that's why Tom DeLonge got his advisors. That's why General McCaslin talked to him. It wasn't because General McCaslin, Robert Weiss at Lockheed, other people, that's all in WikiLeaks, just wanted to talk to Tom because he was a rock star and, you know, was infatuated by a celebrity and wanted to help on a sci-fi movie. It was because they, they were given top cover to see Tom as a public figure who had the touch of the youth. Rightly or wrongly, I mean, I, once again, there was an attempt and I'm not gonna judge them bad or good, but they were trying to prep the battle space prior to 2016. Obviously Hillary didn't win. Trump won. And clearly that activity pivoted and you saw kind of the collapse of the original TTSA efforts in my opinion. That's what I believe happened. Now, the characters that were involved in that are happy to tell their side of the story or more information, but from what I understand, they were trying to get, you know, Hillary, there was an inside job to prep the battle space for Hillary, Jim Clapper and some other people that I know personally were providing some top cover and that was gonna be the thing. So the Clintons were trying to do it back in the day. - Don't you think that that's, that's also just a political ploy to get people to want to vote for you? - Oh, oh, certainly there's politics in that. And obviously even in this current situation, you know, the president can use this for political ends, ways and means, whether making some threshold announcement for the upcoming midterms or by, you know, the 2028 election cycle. I mean, it could be used in political ways too. So, but it is a real topic and the government has real information on it though, so. - Hmm, okay. So, so we've covered the grays, the tall grays, the little grays, the reptilians, various forms, the Nordic looking, Greek God looking ones. - Yeah, and there's like a, - Isn't there like a mantis? - Subtypes there too. In terms of the humanoid ones, there's like different kind of, from very human to clearly not human, but humanoid-ish. But like you said, I have heard, I'll call it water cooler talk within those channels of, like you said, some sort of insectoid, but I don't know anything about it, if that exists. I've heard, you know, like I said, water cooler talk about it. I'm open to that idea, clearly, 'cause of all this other stuff, but I don't have any knowledge of that. - Is there-- - And any high confidence. - Any detailed description of the number of different types of entities and beings? - I mean, the program has that. I mean, I never have-- - And you have never had access to any of that? - I never had full access, no. - Did anybody ever discuss it? Like how many they think there are? Is it upwards of 10? Or is it more? Is it 20? - There's no specific numericals. I only remember in passing having those discussions. And of course I was sitting in Senate chambers when that crazy meeting happened where I found out, you know, they wanted to physically hurt me, but some of those were brought up in passing, but there wasn't like a, here's the exact number, and here's the whole, you know, organizational chart. I never got exposure like that. So I unfortunately don't have that level of confidence on how everything is, so. - Do you know what supposedly happened to those living reptilians from the crash? - Uh, deceased. They were killed. - They were killed? - Yeah. - So we killed them? - Yeah. - Whoa. - They are mortal, so it's-- - So how'd we kill 'em? - Yeah. - Did we shoot 'em? - Yeah. - We shot the reptilians. - Yeah. - Jesus. - Yeah. - That seems like a bad idea. - Yeah, I-- - Maybe we should like tell them to call your friends and come get picked up? - Well, it's the same thing as like, if we force these craft down, is that the best thing we should be doing? - If we force it down, but it sounds like they were in a war with the greys. - Yeah. - Which is also, by the way, I realize, fucking kooky talk, but-- - It sounds crazy, but I swear to God, I was in the most sensitive-- - Oh, I believe you. - Places in government where that discussion was happening with-- - Well, listen, if it was real, if it was real, there's no way it doesn't sound kooky, even if it's real. - I know, I know. And even though I know what I know, I'm confident in what I know, but just understanding this like new normal that is eventually gonna come out is just, it still hurts my head, honestly. - How could it not? - So. - Why did they, do you know why they killed the reptilians? Instead of just telling them to call their homies? - It posed a threat. - It posed a threat? - Yeah. - Oh, so it was defending itself? - Yeah. - It was a giant reptile. - Yeah, so. At some point, that story will come out, and I'm sure the people who were in some of those events will probably speak publicly at some point. - So it posed a threat like it tried to attack the soldiers? - Yeah, it's, I'll let the people know, people who were there tell their story on that. - Can you tell like a little bit of it? - So, I mean, it just posed a threat, and you know, US personnel started, you know, getting hurt and dying, and so. - So US personnel was killed by these reptilians? - Yeah. I know, it's crazy, man, but. - What? Like how many people were killed? - I don't know the exact numbers. And once again, I-- - So it was like a fight. - Yeah, I hope-- - A fight broke out. - Yeah, and I hope through this process, some of those people are allowed to speak publicly about it, so you can just hear it from the horses. - Yeah. - You can hear it from the horses' mouth, not through me, secondhand, you know? - Bro, boy, would I would like to talk to someone reptile he never know you may imagine talking to some guy who shot a seven foot reptilian i mean you think you want to talk to the guy who killed bin laden that's interesting talk to the guy who killed the fucking seven foot reptilian that tried to kill people yeah or was killing soldiers i know it's pretty crazy so goofy though i know while you're saying it sounds like this is and this is one of the reasons why people don't like to talk about it because it makes you look like a fool think about me like i was a very serious intel officer i had access to the most sensitive stuff like i was working on covert action activities all this and then all of a sudden i'm inundated with this ecosystem and i'm having to explain this you know to you know members of congress you know my classified testimony and it's just like i sound like a fucking crazy person but but once again it's true and i know who i talk to i know what i saw and and i you know i clearly have some you uh inkling of what's going on behind the scenes and and and this is a real reality man and it's it's and i hope people look back at this interview and are like yeah dave was fucking really putting his ass on the line it sounds strange but it's not nearly as strange as the universe itself the universe itself is beyond strange the the the infinite nature of it the fact that there's stellar nurseries and black holes like that's like what's dark matter nobody really there's no consensus on that there's wimps and all this other theories yeah the whole idea of of the universe is fucking kooky as shit and so these beings this is a very minor level of kooky in comparison to what we know well when you think about it you look at all the um credible military witnesses that have had encounters at nuclear sites i mean you even look at the mario woods and michael johnson case up at ellsworth air force base in the 70s that jesse michaels just did an episode on and it's like think about those military personnel like you saw the emotion in their face talking about like i can't believe i'm talking about a gray pushing some sort of probe in me and it's like they're even more uncomfortable than myself because they are claiming that they experience that and you look at robert hastings book book ufos and nukes and all the different encounters military personnel have had sober trained observers that are not drunk on duty they're not high and um and i've had unbelievable high level serious people in and out of government privately pull me aside and tell me about their personal experiences and like they you're the only person i can tell you i can only tell my wife because i had this thing this happened this happened i thought i was losing my mind but this really happened and it was and it's it's i think a lot a bigger part of the populace i think has had experiences than statistics would tell you just because of the stigmatization of the topic you know yeah i mean i don't know very many people that have had encounters but all of them are very reluctant to talk about it oh yes and especially people with like credible jobs yeah and it's the same thing like there's a lot of people behind the scenes that are very credible supporting me talking to people behind the scenes to bolster my efforts and they're like i could never you know be public like you and so i'm like trust me i don't want to do this either like i i'd like to you know go back to work in the executive branch put my uniform back on and uh go kill terrorists i used to hunt warlords like i did a lot of crazy shit i used to do hostage rescue do the overwatch for that with certain jsoc elements i've had i've done a lot of serious crazy shit in my career unfortunately a lot of it was traumatizing and you know got ptsd from it but um yeah it's just a lot of people still even at where we are right now in the movie so to speak where we're on the threshold of possibly president trump succeeding and his team getting this information out there if they can you know broker a way ahead with the elements i'll call it the deep state that are that are holding on and and it seems crazy like well well but couldn't the white house just you know break down the door like what why is there pushback all that well you think about like mk ultra and how richard helms told sydney gottlieb to destroy the records and the only reason why we know of mk ultra is uh seymour hirsch right the new york times story there was a leak to the times then uh frank church and other people got uh information from whistleblowers and then they found the financial records that weren't destroyed and then they found the financial records that weren't destroyed um in 1973 through 75 and and also what they call the what's it called family jewels crown jewels where uh ci director schlesinger wrote down like all the bad stuff the ci was doing that like you know we want to make sure this stuff doesn't come out and then there was like a 1964-ish cia inspector general report that was classified and clearly wasn't given to congress and that's the only reason we know about mk ultra it was reluctantly there was a leak to the times that there was an oopsies you know and part of this went public and and so i guess there's some historical parallels to to my journey and and stuff on this issue but and and once again mk ultra like they had a drag cia to con they found all this other bad stuff the heart attack gun all this stuff in the church committee hearings and you know the operation midnight climax then there was um what's a funny name i'm gonna laugh about that one that's the brothels what was it oh well yeah it's very very apropos acid well and then um you just saw there was a story coming out where they like sprayed the city of san francisco in 1976 that was just out in sf gate a couple days ago they could spread disease yeah and then and then you had a mockingbird where they had people on the payroll yeah and it's like okay that's kind of ethically dubious because it's domestic but it's influenced foreign powers okay smith munt act a 1948 violation sort of you know on and on and on but i think what people really have a hard time comprehending is that if this is real and if we have been visiting the church and we've been visiting the church for a long time why doesn't everyone know about it already why haven't they made themselves known why don't we why and then there's also this weird thing if anybody that's actually experienced it like if you have a novel experience if you are going through a you know you're going through a national park in utah and there's no one out there and then all of a sudden some disc shows up hovers over you lands some strange creatures you know come out of it talk to you telepathically get back in the disc and take off i mean you have the whole missing four one one stuff out there oh yeah i had that guy on too clothes are folded i don't know the answer to that and i think so why isn't this more pervasive i would say it's reasonably pervasive but we see these craft using cover concealment deception techniques such as signature management right like think of the klingon bird of prey cloaking right we we have seen that and and so they're they're masking their signature but like as jacques valet will say there's some sort of control system it's like a show and display thing it's a stimulus for a lot of this and then also why don't they overtly interact that gets into like the exo-politique of this i certainly am not conversant in that yet i hope to learn more as the public to learn more about the objectives why they're here why there hasn't been overt contact but clearly interactions with you know the secular nation state governments and well what's the arrangement i don't know the answer to that and and so there's or is it um like the prime directive in star trek right where the oh they're pre-warp civilization we observe we're interested here we're studying the planet but we're not going to overtly influence their development because that's unethical according to our standards of behavior and norms and rules of engagement you know like like it isn't star trek for example also just to avoid any sort of unbelievably catastrophic just upheaval of society you would do it very slowly like it's being done like today the way it's being discussed is very different than the way it's being discussed 20 years ago right so 20 years ago is 2016 we hadn't had or 10 years ago was 2016 we hadn't had the new york times story yet the new york times story is 2017 that changed everything i think 20 10 years before that you talked about this stuff you were a fucking idiot and a kook this is a cottage industry and i also going back to the kind of the pattern of lifing this so to speak i think the nature of the interaction was more overt and antiquity so something changed at some point in human history where going back to greek gods and you know the anarchy whatever ends up being true we'll find out i guess in this process that seems more overt they're like you know uh mass kind of interactions but then i'm sure you've seen those ancient changed those ancient paintings that it looks like a guy sitting in a craft that has a fire behind it he's flying through the sky yeah like what the fuck is that yeah i'm not full uh chariots of the gods or there's probably a happy medium that ends up being accurate and but it looks like the nature of the interaction does that mean a different group of intelligence right and how many of them are there changed and went away and there's like this new generation i don't know the answer to that but it does seem if you pattern a life it um the nature of their show and display their concealment deception their their forced presentation so to speak you know they use kind of military talk has changed and clearly um they're they're less uh likely to do anything major negative or positive right for whatever reason is there a consensus as to their origin because i know that or is it do they vary wildly like there's a like timber shed has talked about the ocean there is yes the we know a lot about that and what do we know about that well let me be careful because it gets into sensitive navy underwater things um and there's clearly some sort of base of operations in certain locations um it's large don't know when it got there so it's large large like multiple city blocks type stuff yeah so So there's multiple city blocks somewhere in the bottom of the ocean. And it's like, yeah. Do you know about the Baltic Sea Anomaly? Well, yeah. What's going on with that? There's some interesting stuff there. And once again, I will allow the federal government to deal with that one and our allies and adversaries. Okay. But you did say that there's multiple city blocks under the ocean. Yeah, I will tell you, underwater people I know that come from that community, they're always like, you know the movie The Abyss, Dave? It's kind of a docudrama. And I'm like, holy fuck. You know, that movie with Ed Harris back in 89. And so that kind of gives you a sense in a pop-sci kind of way for people to visualize there is large shit down there. And it's like the origin is indeterminate. I'm sure we know a little bit more. I'm not privy to that. And the way we know things and track that, that gets into sensitive national security stuff. And, you know, the government may have to reveal some of that through some sort of acknowledgment strategy. The way it's been described to you are these large city blocks or whatever the hell it is under the ocean. Is this a waypoint? Is this a stop off? It looks like a base. A fort, a base? Stuff comes and goes. Okay. Yeah. So this is like where they observe? Yeah. I'm sure we've done a behavioral analysis. And we probably have figured out maybe the mission or whatever you want to call it. I don't know the answer to that. I'm as curious as anybody, honestly. One thing I wanted to talk to you about because it just recently started hitting the news or Twitter at least. Someone sent it to me. This guy Matthew Brown saying that you tricked him in a psyop into revealing that there's – you turned him into a whistleblower. Do you know this story? I didn't even know Matt Brown until right before the 20th. I didn't even know Matt Brown until right before the 2024 hearing. I never met the guy while I was a – I sent it to you, Jamie. I had to bring it up to you because a bunch of people said that. Yeah, there's like some – Make sure you ask him about this. Oh, because I was at the Schriever war game high-level cell advisor that I somehow made fake stuff. And the briefing that Matt says he saw, I've never seen. I can't evaluate the contents of that. And I didn't make anything. I've never made a hate speech. I've never made an amazing brief on this topic. I made some fun briefs just to fuck with some of my airmen back in the day, some Star Trek-related stuff and just for, you know. But you're aware of this, right? So what is he alleging? He alleges invert and exposure. He was cleaning up the file system on a classified system in – I think it was like 2018 or something like that. And, you know, he found this briefing. Once again, I met Matt or talked to him for the first time in like 2024, well after I left. The intelligence community, so I didn't even know he existed and unfortunately I've never seen a briefing like that, so I can't evaluate the contents. Mm-hmm. So … Have you communicated with him after he said this? Oh, oh, oh, sure, sure. Yeah, I mean just in support, making sure he has resources. No, but I mean after he said that you psyoped him, have you communicated with him since then? Oh, he said that? Isn't that what it says? I think that might have been people saying that. Other people saying? Yeah, it's like in other words …. That's news to me. I'll call Matt after this. So that makes sense. So what it is is other people alleging that that's how it went down. Yeah, there's a lot of theories online … Of course. … about like myself and, "Oh, I'm being handled." Dude, it's just me. It's sad. It's just me and like my bros and like there's higher-up people like helping, but unfortunately like nobody is telling me to do X, Y, and Z. Uh-huh. Obviously, if the president wants me officially involved, I'm happy, but like, you know, I'm just a dude. I'm just a dude, you know, doing what I need to do. Right. So, yeah. What other weirdness of it, before we wrap this up, what other weirdness of it do you think people don't know about it? Hmm. You know, I think there's something to synchronicities and I don't have an answer why that happens. It just seems like weird things just like happen or work out and this is about as woo as I get. And I just look at my own personal journey. You know, I was in like the right place at the right time and so many instances in my career to learn certain things that would help me later and like, you know, met certain people at the right time. And of course, you know, there's like an analytical bias most humans have where they're ascribing meaning to certain interactions that are actually truly random, statistically random. Right. But I've talked to enough people that say the same thing. And I just… There's something going… There's a… There's like a hidden hand part of the phenomenon that I can't… It's like a certain je ne sais quoi I can't like point my finger on that I think is really interesting too. But that's about as woo as I get. I don't know. Do you think that is the nature of the fabric of the universe or do you think that this has something to do with extraterrestrial intervention? Well, I think that's like almost like going back to remote viewing because, you know, the Stargate program, Girl Flame, all the different names it had, like that was adjacent to the program. Why do you think we were doing the psychic spying program besides competing with the Soviets and Chinese on this? Well, I think the reason we're doing the psychic spying program besides competing with the Soviets and Chinese on the same topic is because that's the key unlock to some of the technology potentially. Right. If you can figure out how to… It's what they call it like BCI, brain computer interface. Right. But like clearly there's some sort of organic to tech interface and it's clearly consciousness based. Not to digress on your original question. No, but this is what Lazar said as well, that there was no instruments and that these things controlled this with their mind. It depends on the class of vehicle. And like there's like… There's like really weird shit that we have no idea how it works to like, oh, that kind of looks familiar. What's the weirdest of the really weird shit? I mean, you just have like the eggs and stuff. They're like usually unmanned. Usually. And it's like, is this like a probe? It's like a fucking egg, you know? And I know Jake Barber has talked about publicly recovering them, you know, and, you know, I heard about that elsewhere. People who were dealing with that. It's just kind of weird. It's like this amorphous thing. It's like the movie like Arrival, right? Right. That's a great movie. Yeah. Is the technology like embedded in the skin? Like what is going on here? There's like no obvious control surfaces. Like what's going on? Right. Right. What kind of timeline do you think we're looking at in terms of like really changing the world? I think the basic affirmation, the threshold disclosure, you know, call it. We're not alone. We have stuff kind of thing. It has to happen before Trump leaves because I don't trust another president to follow through on the president's directive. Because, you know, it's the next administration can be like, we're peeling that back, baby. We're not touching this again. Of course. I think he has to do it before he leaves office. And if I were advising the president and if the team's listening, I would do it at least six months before the election just so there's some sort of recovery period and kind of and whatnot. But I'm just a dude. Obviously, I want it as soon as possible. Like most Americans listening to this. How do you envision that something like that would take place? Would they have a broadcast? Would they show video and explain? That was a plan at one point for a previous administration is they were going to have like one of those like government. Was this the Bush administration with the how put off days? No, this was HW. Oh. Yeah. And so I'm sure the video sucked. It was probably one of the most important things that we've ever done. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if it was the Bush administration. I don't know if it was the Bush administration with the how put off days. No. This was HW. Oh. Yeah. It was probably has some synth wave government, you know, film from like the 1989 like, you know, and it was probably going to be horrible and dry. But there was going to be this like audio visual kind of a companion to some sort of announcements. Now, I don't know all the the specific details after that's clearly there has to be a physical rollout. God, I hope that video exists out there in the archives somewhere we could watch it after disclosure. I know we need to have like a throwback like what you know, see the old shit. Well, if you think about like how long it's been that people have like slowly become more and more aware of this, it's it seems like a long time, but our lives are very short. Yeah. And the reality is if this thing, this this phenomenon has coexisted with human beings and I guided us, aided us. And that's why I don't think people should be too fearful. I mean, obviously, there's a yin and yang in the universe, there's malevolent benevolent. But clearly, there's some homeostasis going on right now. And there's been this call cohabitation for the lack of a better way to describe it. And, and clearly nothing. Do you think that happens? Some of this is in conjunction with AI becoming sentient, and that this was a part of the process. I don't know that to be a fact. However, I, like I said earlier in the interview, I am fearful that AI is going to figure some of this shit out, whether it be tech technology stuff, or the fact that we're not alone just by looking at all the disparate databases and correlating data, especially if it gets connected to any sort of genetic record, medical records, sensing system. And I think that's a real threat that if I were to advise the White House, they need to think about that, like, third party. Unexpected disclosure pathway that artificial superintelligence provides both from a technology risk perspective, but also revealing some of this too. And, and once again, you know, that artificial silicon based AI is like, is that the infrastructure that we need to communicate to some of this organic intelligence too, because it's able to learn and figure out modalities. of communication I don't know so it's pretty crazy okay it's a lot to absorb I know thank you very much for being here man I appreciate it's always great to talk to you and thank you for all your hard work and exposing all this stuff I mean I really wonder like if it wasn't for you doing all this how much would we know I don't know man I just I hope this is the last time I gotta send it on on an interview and uh it's been tough really tough like it's been debilitating I've gone through a lot you know I've been in danger and I've done a lot of stuff for this country over the years but I'm honored to be that guy I guess and and risk it all to you know unveil this truth because it really was a core secret of the United States so I certainly think it moves the needle yeah I appreciate it thank you all right bye buddy Tammy regularly hauls stuff to her kids at college that's why she shops at BJ's Wholesale Club saving up to 25% off grocery store prices beef jerky microwave meals laundry pods even they can't screw up have you met my kids and with BJ's gas she gets there for less they call me the road warrior this is your home road warrior mom home of the save join for just $20 at bjs.com slash mesquite and save 10 cents per gallon for six months open soon limited time only for new members only. 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