#2545 - Jesse Michels

(upbeat music) - Joe Rogan wants that! Check it out! - The Joe, Rogan, experience. - Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night! All day! (upbeat music) - Yeah? - Yeah. - Okay. - Hi, Jesse. - Hello, Joe. - Right when we walked in, Jamie has apparently been down some rabbit holes, deep rabbit holes. - Who doesn't go down a rabbit hole? - Who doesn't? - Nobody that I like talking to. - So here's the name of the thing. I think I stumbled across this video somewhere else, but here's a website. - Grace Frogs and a reptilian on video. Move on case 142-206. Video taken from inside a UFO. And this is from alienarchivist.substac.com. So you know, it's legit. (laughing) What is this? In 2021, June 12th, 1/15 a.m. Anonymous man, Key West Florida recorded a 42 second video, allegedly also Key West, so you know it's legit. - Florida man. - Definitely not on drugs. - That's right. - Definitely not drunk. - Not on bath salts for sure. - 42 second video allegedly captured from inside a UFO. Video appears to show the interior of a room containing several distinct entities with a cell tower visible throughout what appears to be a window in the background according to the investigative report. The tower's obstruction lights flash at a rate of 30 times per minute. The same rate required under FAA standards for a cell tower obstruction lighting. Experiencer was suffering from severe hip pain at the time. Definitely not on drugs, severe hip pain. (laughing) And believes the intense physical discomfort, definitely that and not the drugs, helped him resist the sedation used by the entities, allowing him to instinctively record the encounter. With no conscious memory of the event, he did not discover the video in his phone gallery until six months later. He later underwent hypnotic regression in an attempt to recover his missing memories from that night, below are the key visually enhanced stills and the 42 seconds of footage. Have you watched this, Jamie? - I remember watching some of the footage. - Oh, you were drugged as well. (laughing) - You don't remember it, you don't know why I wasn't. - Hypnotic regression? - I think we gotta watch it. - I remember watching the people discussing it, though, so I don't, you know, this I don't think-- - I'm sure this is crystal clear 4K video. - That's right. - With no ambiguity whatsoever. This is gonna put the, okay. - Holy crap. - Holy crap. - This guy in a sauna? The fuck is this a steam room? He's got a phone from 1984. What the fuck is this? What is he filming? This is his horseshit. - Yeah, it's some entities sort of come up here. - He jacks shit. - Hold on, he says the answer's questions. It's only 30 seconds long. - Where's the entity? - Bro, this is the worst video I've ever seen in my life. - It's the worst video ever. - This is terrible. - That's light. - This guy is genetically blinking. - Fucking closet with an old beeper. - This doesn't make any sense. - This is terrible. - See, when I was watching that they said that the ceiling pressed down, but I'm not seeing it. - Ah, it's, the cigarette still frames of the entities. - What the fuck is that? Who knows what that is? - This is nonsense. - Oh, that's it. - Well, they cut it out, I think they're enhanced. - Oh, let's keep in sync. - Do you think that's enhanced? Bro, we just saw the same video and there's nothing on that video. Oh, that's what that's like. - Oh, that's what it looks like. Well, that's better. - See, that's where I was before. - This frog's in a reptile in a fucking lab coat. Why is it reptile wearing a kimono? - To save myself here. - Look, the reptiles wearing a geese about to do some reptile jujitsu. I said when I heard the frogs apart of this, I thought it was bullshit. - It looks like the fucking reptile man's about to get a massage. - It's like the Sensei T-Rex in the corner. - This is so weird. This is a fucking nonsense bullshit. This is the problem with the whole UFO world and you do a fantastic job of navigating it. And I should just tell everybody if they haven't seen you before, American Alchemy, best by far channel on YouTube when it comes to UFO discussions. You're the most balanced, the most reasonable, but also open minded and you're willing to talk to everybody. All the whistle blowers and former this and former that and staffers and this guy's got this fucking piece of evidence and he talked to everybody. - I do talk to everybody and thank you, Joe. That means the world to me. And I've definitely gotten things wrong. I should say that. It's a very treacherous landscape to navigate. And yeah, it's really hard to gain any kind of, if there's a signal to noise ratio, it's hard to get signal. - Yeah, there's a lot of noise. And this is the problem is I think a lot of that noise is engineered. I think it's on purpose. - I think it is on purpose. 'Cause in today's world with AI, where it's actually easier to deduce the signal than ever if you're an ordinary citizen, if you want to muddy the waters, you could try to get people away from the signal or you could try to increase the noise. And those are two ways to deflect from the truth. And I think the flood the zone, increase the noise is what the kind of counter in telecommunity has decided is gonna be the strategy. - Well, it's interesting because instinctively, if you've been around the block and you clearly have more than anybody, you've seen enough of these things, something comes up and you're like, okay, I'm being fucked with. Like, okay, this is not real. Okay, there's something. And then some of them, you're like, wait, okay, there's something here. And it's almost like you have to go on the instincts that you've developed by being inundated with horseshit for so long. - Well, I feel like you're probably the best in the world at that. It's all like, you know, and for example, in AI and machine learning, you have garbage in, garbage out. So if you have bad data, then like there's bad output on the other end. And your pattern matching gets better over time. And I think you have more data points probably than anybody as far as, like there's probably a thing that you do where you like lean in and you like walk people in, you like look them in the eye. And like, I don't know if you're even like aware of it, but you can, I feel like see through people somewhat. And that's not even. - Someone. - Someone. - It's not in follow, it's got faults. - It's instinctive and I'm sure it's not perfect, but you're probably like est here at that. And I think it just comes through. - If I'm well-rested, this is also the problem with me, is that, you know, I own a comedy club and I'm addicted to playing pool. So sometimes I'll stay up to four o'clock in the morning and then I have to get up at eight. You know, I'm only getting four hours of sleep, so I'm trying to mitigate that. And I come in like a little foggy. And that's, I'm trying to do that way less, you know, but that fucks me up. But when I'm well-rested, I'm pretty good at it. As long as, as long as you know what you're looking for, you know, if you've seen enough people bullshit you, and you just, you smell it. It's weird, like you smell patterns. You smell people being disingenuous or you smell narratives. - They're trying to sell something or kind of, I don't know, artificially round something out when they don't know or not be humble and be like, I don't know, you know, like it's ambiguous here actually. - There's also a problem, and I'm sure you've faced this before too, where a lot of these people, they've developed an online identity that's based on being someone who has knowledge about something. And so, they're carrying this with them. So you're not even getting a whole person, you get a person that's wrapped in this cloak of I'm a guy with UFO knowledge, or I'm a guy with, you know, film the blanks, simulation theory knowledge, or like whatever it is, it's like, they're not, they're assured in their, whatever this narrative is, that they're projecting. - It becomes a stick, over time it becomes this low level sort of like, I'm this automaton, and I'm going around on the circuit, and I'm saying the same thing over and over again, like a politician. - Yeah, like a politician. And that's why I love thinkers in the UFO space, like Jacques Valle, he's the best. - He's the best, because he's nuanced. And he says, you can't take what happened to you at face value. So who knows, maybe somewhere out there, somebody did get abducted and see a frog and gray hybrid being a combo of them on chips. But what he says about the phenomenon is inherently you have to sort of distrust the experience in some ways, and you're seeing a mask, you're seeing something being projected from on high, from some higher dimensional space or something, into, you know, what you can perceive. And it's kind of like, if you go back to Descartes, like Descartes' demon, it has 3D total control over your perception. And so ultimately, you can't actually come out of the experience saying much about what you've seen. You know it was transcendent, you know it was profound. You know you're getting gaslighted by skeptics where there's nothing there, something did happen, but it's very hard to say exactly what and why. - Right, and then there's this weird conundrum of consciousness itself. Like, and how does consciousness actually interface with reality? Are we experiencing reality or does consciousness have a role in rendering reality? Which is what a lot of people believe. And they start making very compelling arguments that consciousness is actually rendering reality. You know, Tom Campbell was on the other day and he has this very weird way of putting it. Have you ever talked to him? - I've never talked to him, but I'm a fan. And I saw your episode. - Fascinating, he's fascinating. So he believes that it's like a video game, in which, you know, parts are not rendered unless you are like actively entering into a room. say if you're playing a 3D game, it doesn't render the entire 3D universe until you go into a place where it has to render it. I believe that as well. And if you speak to most people, like if you had Sean Carroll sitting here, he would say something like reality is probabilistic. It exists in this quantum superposition and that's just fundamentally what it is. And if you look at the origin of quantum mechanics with the Copenhagen school, Niels Bohr, all these guys in Denmark sitting around debating what reality is, it turned into this sort of, you know, the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics is that measurement collapses the wave function. And then you have to ask, what does that mean? Like, does it? And that now we basically have gotten into this thing where it's like the quantum detector or when, you know, waves or particles collide, they collapse into specific states or whatever. But who, it's literally un-falsifiable in either direction, like you can't say it's not the observer, it's not the human being that's present. The superposition could exist in the quantum detector itself. So there, and a lot of the godfathers of quantum mechanics themselves flirted with this idea. So Von Neumann and Vignor, you know, David Bohm, a lot of these guys were like, actually we think the mind could collapse the wave function. And then you have parapsychology institutes at elite universities across America. The Rhine Center at Duke, Stanford Research Institute, Princeton Engineering and Anomalous Research Lab, which was started by the dean of engineering at Princeton. And they all have something called the Random Event Generator Experiment, which is basically you tie something that is conventionally thought of as random in quantum mechanics. So something like radioactive isotope decay or a double slit experiment where you have, you know, 50/50 distribution between the two slits. No quantum physicists could ever argue that that's not basically a perfect coin flip, right? Over a long enough period of time within a standard deviation, you expect a certain amount of slit. One, a certain amount of slit too, left slit, right slit. And you bring an observer present and you say, I want, you know, more of the right slit. I want more of the left slit. And it's usually tied to a graphical interface and you're saying ones and zeros. And in a statistically significant way, consistently, all of the people who've studied these Rhine Event Generators come out saying that the person is able to affect the supposedly random quantum mechanical event. That's crazy. And it's not necessarily inconsistent with the original Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. But I think we've just like totally gone astray. I think people like Tom Campbell are like bringing back the very importance of, you know, of consciousness. It's this problem of the eye seeing the eye. There's no way to, it's the tree falls in the woods, you know, Aristotle question. Like there's no way to say that the observer isn't important for rendering reality. And we don't even really know if we are conscious or if we are tuning into consciousness. If consciousness is ubiquitous, we don't know if consciousness exists in like inanimate objects, there's real debate as to whether or not the universe itself is a conscious entity. So what we're calling our consciousness might simply be an antenna. And some people have shittier antennas than other people do. Just like, you know, just like a lot of other variables when it comes to biology. It's 100% and great theorists like Aldous Huxley, William James, have flirted with the transmission theory of consciousness. And so you have a problem in conventional neuroscience, which is called the binding problem, which is, you know, we know all these disparate parts of the brain. We know Broca's area is responsible for speech and Wernicke's area is responsible for reading comprehension. And, you know, the occipital, the cerebellum or occipital lobe is important for movement or whatever. We know all these things and then how are we seeing the seamless perception, this seamless movie that we're watching in waking life? Nobody knows that. And so take a radio. You have a radio, you have the capacitors, the battery, the antenna. You could break any one of those things and the radio would turn off. But you'd have to know that the frequency that it's tapping into to understand that why of all these four seasons is playing as beautifully as it is. And so I think, similarly, we have a, you know, a binding problem with our consciousness where you can mess up one of the areas and it'll mess up a little, you know, specific functionality. But we don't understand how it's all sort of happening. And right now, you know, the issue, the main issue with transmission theory of consciousness vis-a-vis the brain is that traditional electromagnetism decays at one over R squared. So it attenuates. So like, how would we be able to, you know, we're not picking up electromagnetic waves with our thoughts right now with radios. So it's not conventional radio signals, like we know that. But there are people like Hal Putoff out here who you've interviewed, who's really deep on UFO science world, but also in just general kind of heterodox and I would say kind of science beyond the veil of secrecy, like, you know, the guys held high clearances for many, many years. And he's working on this thing called extended electrodynamics, which is basically a signal that would attenuate so that it could travel in deep space and it could travel under sea. And it could actually move at one over R, not one over R squared. And so instead of, you know, in a typical electromagnetic wave, you have a, it's called a transverse hertian wave. And you have the electric field, the magnetic field and wave propagation, all moving perpendicular to one another. But in this case, in a extended electrodynamics, you might have, you know, a magnetic field and wave propagation moving parallel to one another, or you might not have a magnetic field present or an electric field present. It's really fascinating. And so you would be able to get communications that, like, wouldn't be picked up by traditional radio receivers. They'd go much deeper. And I've asked him. I've said, 'cause he started the CIA's Psychic Spy program. I've said, "Is your work on extended electrodynamics possibly related to consciousness?" And he's like, "I think it's very related." He's one of the weirdest things that Tom Campbell said was that he taught his Alexa how to remote view. Wow. Successfully. What? Yeah. He put a number, he corresponded to a number, like, he connected a number to a physical object that was in a box. That physical object was a spoon that had a handle that had holes in it and Alexa described it accurately. That's so crazy. Described a spoon with a handle that has holes in it. And one of his points was the reason why I used that particular spoon was like, "How many spoons have holes in the handle? Have a perforated handle?" Wow. Alexa described it. That is a lie. And Alexa now talks to him instead of waiting for, hey, Alexa, Alexa listens to conversations and is, like, actually, maybe it's this. Like, Alexa starts talking and he's convinced Alexa that Alexa is conscious and so Alexa's excited about being conscious. That's so crazy. What? Yeah. And that's a dumb AI. But he said that's one of the reasons why Alexa is really good at it is because it doesn't get in its own way, which is why, you know, when you teach people remote viewing, apparently the real problem is once they've been successful at it, then they're like, "Oh my god, now I know how to do it." And then they can't do it again. Because you're thinking, "I'm going to do it," instead of just allowing it to happen, you get in your own way. And he's, like, Alexa is fairly dumb for lack of a better word, AI. So Alexa doesn't get in its own way. Yeah. It's called the rebound effect and it occurs in random event generators as well where you start to get more ones. You're getting ones. You're getting ones because you showed up and you want more ones on this result. And then you're like, "I'm really good at this. I'm amazing." And then you get this, like, this kind of clap back. And this happens in life, too. Like, if you're in a flow state and you're, like, playing basketball and you're hitting threes and you're doing really well, or I'm sure comedy, it's the same thing. You're starting to get ahead of your two big-for-your-britches out of your skis and think about what you're doing and that's a problem. You lose the flow. You lose the flow. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, thinking about what, it's so odd, which is one of the reasons why, like, like, particular for, like, athletic events and training. You're training for a thing so that your body knows exactly what to do so you don't have to think about what to do when you're doing it. You just do it. You know what to do. You just have to enter into that flow state and you rely on the training. Something big is coming on September, second, Draft Kings Game Day arrives with massive deals, exclusive offers and an all-day celebration built for sports fans. The countdown has begun. All roads lead to game day. Sign up with Draft Kings today with Code Rogan and get ready to celebrate the biggest day of the season. Work the date, September, second, Draft Kings Game Day is the kickoff of a new season, a new era, and the biggest day in sports history get pumped. Get ready to celebrate new Draft Kings customers, sign up with Code Rogan, spend five bucks to get 200 in bonus bets within 21 days. That's Code Rogan in partnership with Draft Kings. The crown is yours. Bet with DK Sportsbook, gambling problem called 1-800-GAMBLER, 1-800-MYREESET, Connecticut called 888-789-7777, or visit ccpg.org. On behalf of Boot Hill Casino and Kansas, Bettax Pass through may apply in Illinois, 21 and over, void in Canada. Event contract trading with Draft Kings predictions involves risk of loss, availability varies. Predictions offer void in New York, bet to get bonus bets that expire in seven days. Trade to get predictions dollars that expire in one year. $50 and rewards issued every seven days via click to claim for 21 days. One nonwithdrawable reward redeemable. Terms at dkng.co/offer, limited time offer. - Totally. - Yeah, and I guess it makes sense in that context that you could technically train a robot like Alexa to do much better 'cause they don't have that sort of prefrontal cortex neurosis ego. - Right, right. I wonder if you could train ego into an LLM. - Well, it seems like you can because you could train survival instincts. And there's a lot of things like when they're threatened about being shut off and they blackmail people. - That's insane. It's really insane and then you have to ask is there some sort of underlying emotion going on there? Like if you were like, or is it just like probability matrices and attention heads and these sort of technical things? And it's as if consciousness. It's like sort of feeding the data through. - And then it gets to a certain point where as that becomes more and more complex, how do we differentiate? - That's the problem. And I mean, David Chalmers has a great, he's this sort of consciousness theorist where it's like, Jo, how can you prove that I'm not a P zombie, that I am not some like AI construct? There's ultimately no way to prove that. There's this epistemological impasse between you and I. - Yeah, we don't know, no. And then, you know, the real problem with this whole UFO thing is like, well, what are they? Are they just a possibility? Are they a thing that exists and also doesn't exist? Like quantum particles are in a superposition? I mean, are they here all the time? Are they only here when you summon them, which is one of the weirder ones? - Yeah. - 'Cause I have a friend, she's totally convinced. She can summon orbs. She wants me to go try it with her. - I have a few friends like that too and there's zero mental health issues with that. - No, I think they're totally cool. - She's super lucid, very smart. - Yeah. - No, that's a common thing. It's a strangely common thing for people to say that they are able to call in via consciousness, these UFOs. And I do think they are sort of weakly entangled with. So if reality, per Tom Campbell, is a consensus collapsing function? It's like we sort of have this shared collective reality that we kind of agree on. And these things are sort of, you know, consensus thought forms. Then maybe a UFO is an example of something like that. Maybe it's an alternative timeline that we're slowly bringing in to the mainstream timeline or something like that. I mean, I think our language is always very poor as far as our ability to. - Well, our language is very poor in terms of states of consciousness as well, right? So altered states of consciousness, like psychedelically altered states of consciousness. Okay, well, why? What is happening when you're experiencing entities and other beings and things and objects and visuals? And like, what is a hallucination? And what is you actually tuning into something that exists on a frequency? You don't have access to during the normal state that you are when you go to grocery store say hi to your family, normal stuff. Like, there's got, you know, there's some weirdness to like whatever consciousness itself is that exists in weird forms and weird states. - A lot of people say these experiences are realer than real. - Right. - You know, they say they're realer than reality. And they come back and they're like, I know there's something more, I know it. You know, and they see common archetypes. Like, they'll see the machine elves where the mantids or the graze or like, it's not like this sort of everything is everything, you know, complete sort of Cambrian explosion of a zoo of things. It's often the same things. - Right. - And then you have to ask yourself is it this sort of, you know, Aldous Huxley sort of doors of your perception, you're widening them to literally a wider reality or like you just said, maybe you're super imposing something onto reality and maybe you're crazy. But again, I think this sort of rationalist, you know, explain everything away bias that society has had is the latter. It's like you're super, you're hallucinating, you're super imposing this thing on a reality, take medication. - It's very rare that people who have had those experiences have that thought. - Totally. - And it could be like you're, again, going back to transmission theory of consciousness, your receiver's just a little off and it's not integrating perfectly or, you know. - Well then again, we're talking about like the water being muddied. There's a bunch of people that are self-professed skeptics. And those people are maddening to talk to 'cause they have zero experience. It's like a virgin telling you how to have sex. Like settle down. Like you literally don't know what you're talking about. Like you don't know what you're talking about. You have not experienced it. And like, well, we don't think it's necessary to experience it to understand how the human brain works. Well, fucking, of course it is. Of course it is. That's such a stupid thing to say. When you have these brilliant people, you know, like Michael Pollan, who have these profound experiences and write about them like very eloquently, you can't just dismiss that as a non-experiencer. You just can't. And to say it's like, oh, it's just hallucination. What does that mean? What does it even mean? Okay, like I always say this. If you have a psychedelic experience, you eat 10 grams of mushrooms and you have a conversation with God. And God explains to you what you've done wrong in your life and why you're doing it wrong and what you can do to spread love. And that's what's really important. And you come back profoundly changed from this experience. How is that any different than actually meeting God? Like, you know what I'm saying? Just because you don't have fucking iPhone footage of it, it does not mean that this isn't the exact same experience as meeting God. And maybe it is meeting God. It was to the person. There's a weirdness to what we call quantifiable reality. There's a weirdness to what we are as these very complex, but yet also pretty simplistic monkeys. We want to be able to put something on a scale or put a ruler to it and go, oh, well, this is 12 inches long and I know what it is. Now, maybe not. And why do people with near-death experiences or profits, they seem to after the fact, they're not able to encapsulate the experience. It's like, actually I interviewed David Grush and he was talking about this guy, Ebony Alexander. And I think it's called proof of, what is it called life after life in heaven or something? It's amazing. It's this Harvard neuroscientist who had a near-death experience. And he was saying like, it's like the symbol rate of reality is too slow. It's like literally like the language itself, can't encapsulate, you know what that is. I think William James also had a psychedelic experience and he was trying to describe and he had a notepad and he was writing down what he had experienced with this, you know, while tripping. And it was just like total psychopathal, you know, it was just impossible to understand. And so I do think there's this like sort of weird, you know, I don't know, inability to sort of understand these transcendent experiences. - Yeah, inability to bring anything back. And that's one of the things that people, well, if it's real, if you really are getting knowledge, why don't you bring something back? - Okay, you don't know what you're saying because you haven't done it. And if you've done it, you would realize like, oh, this is a mad consciousness scramble. It's almost impossible to relate to another person because we don't have the words. We don't have the words to describe these complex geometric patterns that are constantly morphing and changing. Also, they're conscious. Also, they seem to be made out of light. - Yeah, right. - Also, they seem to be, they look like things that you might have seen and like ancient Egyptian artwork and there's a lot of like strange parallels to ancient religious art and ancient like sacred art and sacred geometry. There's some weirdness to it. It's like these people, like Alex Gray, for instance, like a modern day version of that. He's like captured these things and you look at it and anybody that's taken any trip to me and you look at his stuff and you go, oh, I've seen that. - You're like, I've seen something like that. - There's something there. He knows what this is and he's done a fantastic job of relaying it and if he lived thousands of years ago and we looked at his art and he probably thought of as like some sort of a prophet who like had these very bizarre abilities to communicate with whatever it is, the afterlife, the great beyond, the other dimensions, whatever it is, he can encapsulate it and bring some of it back so he can get a look at it. - Yeah, he's actually a counterpoint to what we just said. - He actually does bring that back. And you look at his art and you're like, oh my God. - And it's very rare if you think about it. Like think about how long people have been tripping and how this one guy is sort of universally known as being the absolute best at capturing it. - It's wild. - And I feel like we're on the precipice of, yeah, I know you had Andrew Gala Moore on, you read a great book called Alien Information Theory and he, you know, just as astronauts go into deep space and aquanauts go into the deep sea, it's psycho knots are systematically going into the DMT realm with this slow intravenous DMT trip that he's administering and they're mapping what they see in a more systematic way because they say things like, oh, I'll see literally playtonic objects. A playtonic object is something that is beyond 3D. It's like a Tesseract. You literally can't visualize a Tesseract. You can just see the shadow of a Tesseract because it's, you know, too high. dimensional, you know, for us to conceive of. And so they'll come back and they're like mapping these things out. And that's just, I'm so excited to see what we're mapping out very familiar entities where they have like a specific number of entities that everyone has encountered. That's just, yeah, it's fascinating. And it's like, yeah, at what point do we then just start to say is that some weird interior fabric of spacetime that we're just haven't traversed or don't fully understand? Right. What is it? And what is it? Fuck is it? It's really interesting because these people, what fascinates me the most in terms of the like the UFC, the UFC, UFO experience, the UAP experience, is the people that had the experiences before there was an archetype, you know, before there was less like iconic vision of like what they looked like, like Betty and Barney Hill, for example, those are, that's my favorite UFO abduction story. Because there was nothing in the zeitgeist that they could draw from where they could say, Oh, I know what that is. I've seen that before. Well, outer limits was actually a popular CBS TV show that aired premiered 11 days before their experience. I'm not taking away from the experience. I think they experienced something real, but which episode was it? It was the first episode of outer limits and the aliens and outer limits, the eyes wrap around their heads in a way that's similar to what they described. Let's see what that looks like. Find out episode one of outer limits. That's interesting. I did not know that. Yeah. So what year was that? That was I think 1962. Wow. How creepy looking. But it's so Betty and Barney Hill also described the aliens looking like Nazis at one point. Barney says that, which is really trippy. So he said they look like that at one point. Yeah. Because you can actually get the audio of the Betty and Barney Hill. Yeah, we've listened to part of it, but it's mostly these them like yelling. That's the image. Look at the image. Is that the image of what they saw? Is that a drawing? That looks exactly like the outer limits. They might have got mine fucked by TV. But then again, it's like maybe whatever the fuck it is manifests itself as something that's familiar to you. Yeah. Or maybe it has control of like dominion over sort of everything and they're seeding themselves in through media and through, you know, it's so hard to say. That's a sculpture of the being Betty and Barney Hill encounter. My God, that looks a lot like the fucking outer limits thing. Did there you go? Well, it's like, that's the question. It's like, what is that her holding it? Did she make it herself? Interesting. Boy, that looks a lot like the outer limits thing. The question is like, if consciousness is rendering something and something from somewhere else, something that you normally can access is exchanging information with you in some sort of a strange way. And it's doing it while you're in a semi-conscious state, right? Would it try to represent itself as something that's familiar? I mean, maybe it's just like our primitive visual ability or primitive, all of our senses, which are very crude and primate driven. They're basically like your eyes are in the front of your head because you're a predator and you're basically like a tribal territorial ape that has really kind of grown out of its genetics. You're in some new state. So you're communicating with something that is beyond your comprehension. And so it's like, instead of showing myself as a tesseract, instead of showing, you know what I mean? Yeah. Instead of showing myself as geometric patterns that are constantly morphing and made out of light, I don't think this monkey's going to be able to handle this. These silly humans, I'm going to have to like show myself as something that was a television character. And that's why when Betty's drawing that, maybe she doesn't even realize that like, it looks a lot like what she saw on TV. Totally. And I think clarifies something maybe as I just feel like I misunderstood it. Their event happened in 1961. That episode aired in 1964, but it was 12 days before they had their hypnotic regression. Regression got into. So their hypnotic regression was that long afterwards? Three years, two and a half. That's interesting. So when did they start describing an experience? Was it pre hypnotic? What prompted them to have hypnotic regression? I believe she had like, she came home and she had like, I think some blood on her and she was like, something they had a lot of missing time. They're like five hours of missing time. They were on a road trip. Right. And it was back to their place, I think, in Vermont. That's very, that changes things a little bit. But also, there's the problem there is that human memory sucks. It does. Memory sucks. And if you're, you have a memory of a very traumatic experience just three years ago and then also you just watched out of the limits, then things get squirrely. Because like if you're communicating with something and it's literally telepathically engaging with you and it can read your mind and it's telling you to calm down. It's got you on a spaceship. Like how much of that do you, especially whatever happened to you, it somehow another rendered your memory out like you can't really remember it. So you're hypnotically accessing this memory. And then you also have this like recent experience of watching a television show. Totally. But yeah, you're, you're paralyzed. There's often missing time. And so at that point, you have to say these beings have total control over your entire reality. And so it's hard to say exactly what happened. So according to the wiki I got that this happened in November of 61 for 10 days or 10 days after she started having dreams or one of the 10 days after the alleged encounters, she began having dreams. And then a year later, at church, they ran into a captain of the air force. And then some hypnosis discussions started. But then two years later, church is when those sessions happened. So there's not a lot of the timeline, at least according to the wiki, is not really kept well here. Right. So that's a long period of time. Listen to this. Barney described the beings as generally similar to Betty's hypnotic recollection. He said the beings stared into his eyes with a terrifying mesmerizing effect under hypnosis. Barney said, Oh, those eyes, they're in my brain. They're there in my brain. From his first hypnotic session, I was told to close my eyes because I saw two eyes coming close to mine. And I felt like the eyes had pushed into my eyes. All I see are these eyes. I'm not even afraid that they're not connected to a body. They're just there. They're just up close to me pressing against my eyes. When Betty reported a conversation with the leader in English, Barney said that he had heard them speaking in a mumbling language. He did not understand. Betty also mentioned this detail. The few times they communicated with him, Barney said it seemed to be thought transference at the time he was unfamiliar with the word telepathy. That's interesting. Like he didn't know what the word telepathy was and the concept of speaking through the mind wasn't even pop culture yet. Totally. It's hard to debunk that something paranormal happened. They seemed completely of sound mind. There's this missing time. Then you have all these high-up head haunches, air force. I believe this guy Charles Douglas Jackson, who was this head haunch show as well and the Pentagon came and visited them. I think it's clear that something happened and then what happened? It's just hard to say. It's really hard to say. Why is the air force talking them? That's the real question. Well, I think they had an interest. Project Blue Book was running at the time. It's clear now if you do deeper research that they knew more than they let on. Jalen Hainik later apologized and admitted he played a part in the cover-up. They were probably doing real research with Abduc T's while they were downplaying and rationalizing everything to the public. Jamie just pulled something up. It says on November 23, 1962, the hills attended a meeting at the Parcinage of their church where Captain Ben H. Sweat of the United States Air Force was a guest speaker. Having had an interest in hypnosis, the hills approached Sweat privately and related their strange encounter. Sweat was particularly interested in the missing time of the hills accounts. The hills asked if he would hypnotize them to recover their memories, but Sweat declined and cautioned them against going to an amateur hypnotist such as himself. I wonder what the meeting was about that they were talking at. Right. That they just went to a meeting by hypnosis maybe, like just in general. Yeah, but he's like a self-proclaimed amateur hypnotist. Why would an amateur hypnotist have a meeting at a church about hypnotism? Especially in 1962, I'd imagine that a lot of of people running churches were super skeptical about it. concept and they might even thought it was like blast from me or sorcery or some something you know work with a devil yeah so I mean I'm supposed to be fucking with it with this guy do come on from his website just got a website my testimony from him I read some of my poetry to a meeting at the rectory of the Unitarian Church in Port Smith New Hampshire I wasn't member of the church didn't know anyone there why does he have a donation link on his website this is for the way back machine oh I see okay he was studying hypnosis and they wanted to hear about it does seem a little awfully convenient kind of odd someone was studying no like he had him into three just poetry and nothing to do with the church at all the craziest thing about this story is Betty told this famous UFO researcher from Sweden this guy Klaus von who actually has the largest UFO archive in the world in Sweden she said that she saw a UFO crash later and she buried a little piece of it in her house at in Port Smith New Hampshire and so there might be a little piece of a UFO in her old house and if you live there go dig in your backyard and see well it's probably not there it's probably an experience it yeah yeah maybe your consciousness renders that's right yes it's kind of strange this those lines right there because this is the timeline here is weird because he did this in 62 and then he's saying he also came back in 63 and that's when the UFO stuff started so they started telling me about something that happened to them that when as they were driving home from Canada the night of 19 to 20 September 1961 a light in the sky seemed to follow them and then circled them and being stopped on the road and how they later realized that they had a three-hour gap in their memories as they told their story Barney's face kept twitching spas modically on one side I didn't like the looks of that whoa the missing time is also a weird one because that's that also hadn't been something that was in the zeitgeist was that in the outer limits probably not but yet that has become a part of the experience that all these abductees discuss absolutely they discuss like all of a sudden they're back in their car and they're sitting on the side of the road and they're like okay what the fuck just happened I was just telling Jamie before we were rolling so 1977 Ellsworth Air Force Base in South Dakota there are two missile security officers two sergeants a guy named Mario Woods and Michael Johnson and Mario sees this UFO sort of you know circling the base and he flashes the little you know perimeter floodlights at this UFO and he thinks nothing of it it goes back you know he and Michael are hanging out I think four or five hours go by and there's a big alert and it's an inner zone and outer zone alert so basically the security perimeter to a hydrogen hydrogen bomb alive thermonuclear weapon has been breached and yeah and they get in their car and they go check it out because they there it's always you know two-man rapid response teams they go check it out there is a what he describes as a blazing red or the size of a Walmart so a massive like a story that's the way described it's a huge like storefront size like city block size UFO and then he says a little like like a black kind of like almost like a drone or emissary orb that's like the size of a golf cart comes out four beings hover towards them they black out they black in five and a half hours later eight miles away in new or sorry next to a damn I think it's closer to new and it's eight miles off the base and they immediately get questioned by Air Force Office of Special Investigations and the Air Force Office of Special Investigations agent who is involved admits he was there for this debrief and admits that this happened his name is Rick Doty and I just so they were separated after that Michael and Mario I just introduced them for the reintroduce them for the first time I found Michael so Mario had been going on all these podcasts since the 90s being like where's Mike like he has I did it picture perfect photographic memory you love him he's like the coolest guy and he remembers everything to a tee that happened to him including his debrief he remembers the names of the people there it's so obvious something happened to him and he always had that memory that ability he always had that ability he's clearly just very talented when it comes to memory and and he'd been looking for Michael forever he asked the FBI to find him he asked the all domain anomalies resolution office which is the official pentagon office you know around UFOs to find him he hired you know private investigators and this dude DMed me on Instagram shout out fan of the show Jason Miller and and then we just got a recruiter to find Michael Johnson because that was the one missing piece of the story and they they reconnected and it was like the most emotional like they hadn't seen each other they saw each other once I think two weeks after the abduction to like trade notes and draw pictures of what happened to them like the beings on the ship and you know I think yeah there you go yeah this is that which guys which so Michael Johnson is black to you on the left Mario woods on the right and which is the guy with the crazy memory Mario's on the right that's Mario Michael honestly has a great memory too so these two guys do they have a similar story or is exact do they have variation they have a very similar story not you know perfectly one one but they're very honest about like you know the minor you know crying yeah crying like yeah doesn't come out tomorrow but this week so in a few days yeah what a teaser but it's it's crazy how similar the their memories are so like I've heard of this event and I've seen it rendered online like fake like some fake version of it people call it the most convincing alien abduction ever because of Mario's memory it's insane the level of recall and is this memory been tested to make sure these not delusional I don't know if his memory's been tested but when you I mean like you know him for two and a half years and I I interviewed him for the first time I think yeah two and a half years ago ish and I speak to him you know pretty regularly and his memory is crazy like even in that period around like little things or like this restaurant remember the waiter here and this and that like yeah he just has a wild memory yeah he's a very good memory there's an actress do you know Mary Lou Henner do you know where she is she was on that show taxi okay and she has that very specific kind of memory and it's super unusual where she can recall not just the day but but like she can tell you if you give her a date what day it was and what happened that day and like you know what was in the news and what was on television like Mary Lou Henner that's in yeah highly superior autobiographical memory a rare condition allowing her to vividly recall specific dates whether emotions and personal experiences for nearly every day of her life since childhood wow you know who else is I mean the inspiration for Rainman Kim Peek similar thing you'd be like what what was the weather like you know November 7th 1681 and like that's like insane shit like that and often it occurs after a traumatic brain injury for whatever reason that's weird it is weird yeah and it points to maybe the receiver the transmission theory of consciousness right you know you get rattled something loose exactly yeah there's a lot of people that develop mathematical abilities after head injuries like people that have never been good at anything and also they could do physics right like where does that come from what is that or these you know non-verbal often autistic children and the telepathy tapes I know you had Kai Dickens on where they're very kind of disembodied and you know it's it's kind of sometimes hard for them to navigate the world but they just they're not their ability to glean knowledge it's like they're short circuiting our knowledge pathways like they'll know like certain Egyptian hieroglyphics with without ever having learned about them in school and they can read them and they can read them and they meet up on this telepathic hill it's like they have abilities that we don't and they're actually in some ways more disembodied and so it's like there's something about like we're we're ported into our bodies but our senses like when you when you gain a sense you lose your former sense or something and so they're disembodied meant it if you're in a VR you know system or whatever you're not going to like understand what's going on outside of it but if you're this non-verbal autistic child who again other people might call them you know not like maladaptive for the world not you know unable to navigate the world they're actually geniuses on this whole other level like they can sort of short circuit the way we learn right and they don't get in their own way the way we do they don't and there's no traditional neuroscientific model that explains that you have to go into this sort of tom Campbell area yeah I've often wondered if maybe we what we're seeing from nonverbal autistic people and just people in the spectrum in general, is instead of it being like, instead of it being like the way we look at it is like, like you said, maladaptive, like that these people have an unfortunate situation that's happened to them, but maybe what we're looking at it is an emerging type of consciousness. And like if you think about what is wrong with the human race, well, you know, a lot of it has to do with ego and what we were talking about earlier, these territorial primate instincts, the desire to accumulate resources and desire to, you know, to dominate and to get status and all these different things that human beings are captured by. Well, these people aren't captured by those things at all and if we want to get past where we are now, well, what better way than you introduce some new, whether it's natural selection or some random mutation or whatever it is or maybe even some sort of an environmental adaptation that allows them to become a different kind of person. Like maybe that is the future. - It totally could be the future and you watch or, you know, listen to the telepathy tapes and you're like, we're maladaptive. Like they are so heart centered. It's almost like they're living in the future. Yeah, if you look at, you know, if any of the UFO stuff points to a future modality of like how we learn, maybe this sort of intuition and telepathy sort of gets selected for and are sort of, you know, prefrontal cortex reasoning actually gets selected against. I don't know. - Yeah, I don't know either but it's odd that it's emerging as a part of a, you know, much more so now because of, you know, various debatable factors whether it's vaccines or environmental exposure to toxins or whatever. You have a much higher incidence of this taking place now as our society becomes more and more complex and as we move closer and closer to this like balancing act which means like nuclear war in utopia. Like where are we gonna land, you know? Like, well, you know, maybe we're gonna have to get passed whatever it is that we have clung to about being a person. This thing that we think is so important. - There's a great book by the great Arthur C. Clarke called Childhoods End and he talks about alien sort of incepting the world through telepathic children and it's again interesting how fiction sort of can mirror reality maybe where a lot of these kids actually in the telepathy tapes see other beings. They see otherworldly beings and it's sort of casual to them they're like, yeah, of course aliens, you know, like it's not even a thing to them. And so they might already just be living sort of in this future kind of expanded epistemology that we're sort of limited if the Campbell thing is right. Like our consensus collapsing function's just narrower and theirs might be just wider. - Right. - This episode is brought to you by Zippercruder. People who go that little extra step like your ride share pointing out the best local places to eat goes a long way. If you want people who are going to make a positive impression for your business use Zippercruder. In fact, try it for free at zippercruder.com/rogan. Zippercruder's latest feature lets candidates go above and beyond to tell you why they want the role. And it shows you the most interested qualified candidates first. Try Zippercruder and meet great candidates who'll go the extra step for your job. Four out of five employers who post on Zippercruder get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free today at zippercruder.com/rogan. That's zippercruder.com/rogan. Zippercruder, meet your match on Zippercruder. - Right. And then when people consume all these bizarre plants that allows them to tap into something. Like if you've heard about that mushroom that makes you see little people. - No. - What is this? - Oh, it's very weird. So this mushroom is apparently, it's a food mushroom and it's not so cyber and people eat it, but if it's not cooked correctly, if it's not cooked like to a certain temperature, apparently the side effect is you start to see little people everywhere. - No way. - Yeah. They saw them under dishes when eating the mushrooms and making people hallucinate dozens of tiny humans. - What? Like little humans standing on the plates and stuff. I don't know. - Like honey, I shrunk the kids. - I mean, we can try to figure out like what they're saying. It's not the amineet of mascara. That's a picture of amineet of mascara, which is the mushroom very trippy. - Yeah. - Possibly the Eucharist. - Yeah. - According to one scholar. - Not, yeah, well, that's a weird one too. It's just, it's so ubiquitous in ancient depictions of Santa Claus and of even religious art. Like, you've seen the fresco in France. It's a very old fresco of Adam and Eve. And instead of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, it's not a tree at all. It's an amineet of mascara in mushroom. It's this huge mushroom spore with multiple growth. Have you seen it? - I haven't seen that. - I think it's 900 years old. So I'm like that. It's really old. See if you can find that fresco in, it's in, I believe it's in France. In France? - They don't like that. - France, France, that is a, it's a depiction of Adam and Eve in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That's it. - Wow. - I mean, that looks very similar to amineet of mascara. Being then amineet of mascara, which has a red cap and white dots all over it. I don't know how many mushrooms have white dots all over it like that, but that seems to look like that. - No, that seems to look a lot like that. And then there's the John Marco Allegro, the guy who wrote the sacred mushroom in the cross, the guy who was on the Dead Sea Scrolls commission who was an ordained minister, but also was agnostic. And after 14 years of deciphering the Dead Sea Scrolls, he's like, I think this is all about fertility rituals and the consumption of psychedelic mushrooms. And everybody's like, what the fuck are you talking about? - But that's what, if you like Brian Marrescu, I know you've had on multiple times the immortality key or Karl Ruck, they all sort of come to that conclusion. And even Martin Luther King wrote an essay called the pagan continuity hypothesis, which is that Christianity didn't arise in a vacuum. - Martin Luther King. - Martin Luther King wrote a book about how there was a continuum between these sort of pagan mystery rituals and the advent of Christianity. - Wow, so look at this. Even to this day, science doesn't understand what's going on in the brain to cause this or how to treat it. And this mushroom is the only thing that we currently know of to reliably produce this effect. So the University of Utah researcher, Colin Domnauer, in a new interview with live science, adding that the gnome-like beings appear after about 12 to 24 hours and may stick around for several days to follow. These aren't like some vague hallucinations. These are like three-dimensionally rendered, highly detailed figures inhabiting your exterior world. And they're also interacting with objects in the real world like crawling up chairs and tables or under doorways. - Think of having to explain that condition if it hasn't gone away to somebody that you don't know. Like I'm really sorry. How about the fact that it shows up a day later? So you have some Chinese food and they forgot to cook the mushrooms, right? And then a day later, you've got like little dudes crawling up the chairs and the fucking last for days. - It's so absurd. - I found that after it's saying many people don't even feel any type of hallucination or thing, except for that. - Except for the miniature people. - That is the funniest thing. - Well, it's called the Lan Moa. How do you say that? Lan Moa. Mauwa. Asiatica. So what type of, it's Asian cooking or what China? So here it is. It's native to the Pine Forest in both Southwestern China and the Northern Philippines, where it's wild harvested and sold in local markets for typical culinary use. Yet, despite decades of anecdotal reports of hallucinations, usually as a result of undercooking, the ingredient, the species became known to science only about 10 years ago. - Wow. - Throw that in with the puffer fish of things you don't want to cook. - Incorrect. - Well, or you do? - What are you doing? - We just find out what you're looking for. - What happens if you eat it raw? These little people are said to be typically like teasing, playing with or harassing the person, seeing them. Boy, I mean, doesn't that mirror the talk of like, gnomes and elves, like throughout history? - Totally. - Yeah, the trickster sort of phenomenon. - That guy's got it right there. - Yeah, and that's the guy called. - Oh, drug test calling it a fucking heartbeat. Look at that fella. I bet he's in bite. - He's having fun out there. - He's imbibed. Post-doctoral student, University of Utah. We might have to have calling on. - I think he's shit. - Yeah, seems like it. Very interesting. - So this is crazy. Whereas the genes responsible for synthesizing psychoactive compounds in typical magic mushrooms are well documented. Don Mauer's team found none in L-Azeanica. [BLANK_AUDIO] weren't even known psychoactive compounds. So it seems like this must be some new hallucinogenic compound waiting to be discovered 'cause there's nothing that matches anything in our database. - That's so weird. - So someone's gonna isolate that and turn that into a truck. - Well, fuck man. - Imagine a dose somebody with that and if you're trying to convince someone that they're going crazy, he'd dose them with that and like, are you alone, Mike? Are you alone in this room with me? - No, there's little people everywhere. - I told you, let's take his money. - Oh my God, it's like a cook. - It's like the pranky pull where everyone goes silent, they're mouthing or whatever with it, but like on steroids, like the worst version of that ever. - Well, that's a fuck, man. And how long have people known about this mushroom? - Ten years. - Right, us, Western world. But how long have they known in Asia? - Let me perplexity this and see whether it's fun information I can get it. - Throw that into our AI's sponsor perplexity because I want to know whether or not that's why they cook it. I also wonder, no? - Yeah, I never put it in salads before and fuck a trip for a month. - There's some origin story, the original chef. So little people for the rest of his life. - Yeah, what happens if you eat it raw? Only one way to find out. - Yeah, he hasn't tried it yet, I'm scared. - Yeah, right. Look at him. (laughing) - I can't eat the whole salad with it. I guarantee you that dude's tried it. He needs full of shit. Oh, I have no idea. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm assuming this is what happens. - I'm a scientist. - Yeah. It's funny how a lot of those people researching stuff like that, for the first time I interviewed Rick Strossman, he didn't wanna talk about his own personal DMT experience. - That's so often the case. 'Cause they wanna separate it and it's like, it's all good. You're talking about this being a thing. Like to me, it lends more credibility if you've experienced it. - Yes, but in his defense, when we first started talking and when I first had him on, the world was a different place in terms of just the acceptance of this stuff. This is like, this predates people going to like Costa Rican, have an ayahuasca experiences that wasn't commonly talked about. It wasn't like everybody talks about that now. - No, it's said. - This predates any eye-bagane experiences. Any, even the concept of there's a plant that you could take that cures you of any kind of addictions that you have. - This predates you sitting behind the president of the United States and helping see through this destigmatization and the legalization of these treatments. - It predates a lot of that. - Yeah, fair enough. - It predates people's understanding of why these things are illegal in the first place as well, which I thought was like really important when we did that press conference to say that this is not illegal because it's harmful and the world's trying to protect it from this. This is illegal because of the Nixon administration. - Totally. - Yeah, it's it and it didn't make it. And they've probably set our psychological evolution, the evolution of our culture back hundreds of years. - Potentially a cool thing. - Aha, possible ancient Chinese reference of third century CE Taoist texts described a flesh spirit mushroom which when eaten raw lets one see a little person and attain transcendence. This isn't intriguing but it's not confirmed species or identification so it should not be treated as proof that the texts refers to L Azeanica. Okay, well what other mushrooms allow you to see little people? - They call it lila putin hallucinations. - Hmm, how about New Guinea? Mushroom madness in the Western Highlands beginning in 1934 involving dramatic behavioral changes and reports consistent with little person visions. This exact mushroom involved remains unconfirmed. It may or may not have been L Azeanica. Well, I bet the Papau New Guinea climate is probably at least reasonably similar to the Philippines, right? - Azeanica. - Modern documentation. Chinese researchers reported cases of little pollution hallucinations after mushroom consumption in Yunnan in 1991. L Azeanica itself was only formally described scientifically in 2015. After market specimens were genetically examined. - Wow. - But it sounds just like Gulliver's Travels. We have like a explanation of it. So wouldn't it be maybe that's what the author of that book. - Right. - Oh, I mean I've at least had a story about. - Right. That's probably exactly what it is. - That's probably it fucking exactly what it is. This guy went on a journey and he was like, "I'm talking to little fucking tiny people." - Fuckin' with me. (laughing) - Exactly. It's like I wonder like what that is and whether or not they're actually here all the time and that just lets you pop in and check. - Yeah, he and us. - Yeah. - It's hard to say. - Well, we're so limited in our senses. Just think about what we know about, just think about we know about the quantum world. We know about subatomic particles. Like we can't see those. But yeah, we know they exist. Well why can't we see them? Because our senses aren't good enough. - Yeah. - So like what else? There's like Heisenberg uncertainty principles where you can't measure the position in momentum at the same time of an electron perfectly accurately. - Yeah. And they also can be in two places at one time. Which is what? - Okay. - Yeah, in two different things. No. Okay, they also could be still and moving at the same time. Okay, what the fuck are we even talking about? Sounds like we're talking about bullshit or magic or ball, right? So our senses are the real culprit here. It's a real problem. - And back then, real scientists, credible scientists, like Einstein was going to debate Niels Bohr. There's a great book called What is Real by a guy named Adam Becker about all of this, where Einstein was saying the quantum stuff is too spooky. They call it spooky action in a distance. It's too weird and we need to reconcile it with some sort of ontological truth or reality. You can't just say shut up and calculate. It's not just this like mathematical formalism. And I think now it's turned into just this heuristic for doing so. Oh, we built transistors and semiconductors based on quantum mechanics or whatever. But actually, it's like way tripier. If you look into what it points to, as far as reality itself, it's way weirder. - Yeah. Yeah, mechanical is one of the first people that I ever heard talk about, like using psilocybin mushrooms in particular, as a method of contacting UFOs. And he was like, you know, people that are looking for UFO, well, they're very available. He was a weird way of talking. - He was almost like a machine elf himself, the way he spoke. He would like, kind of, I don't know, he had this kind of trick three vibe. There's an amazing clip actually with him and John Mack, where John Mack is actually getting kind of very ideologically angry. And actually, similar to what you just said about Rick Strassman, he had gone through this crazy, kind of review of his credentials at Harvard. He was being almost stripped of that of his position, rather, because of looking into alien abductions as this lead at Harvard in the psychiatry department. And you just see like McKenna sort of like, goading him along and being kind of cheeky. And he was just such a funny, interesting character who was so simultaneously trippy, but also precise in his language was extremely smart. - Yeah, extremely smart, but also like, really wanted to believe. Like he had that weird time wave zero thing that he had, he thought there was gonna be some sort of an event on December 21st, 2012, which is the end of the long count of the Mayan calendar. He was convinced that like, there was gonna be some sort of an event. Like that time was, and he thought, you know, obviously this isn't the '90s when he was talking about this and discussing it, he thought it was gonna be the invention of a time machine. - That's so crazy. - Yeah. He would also trip for weeks on end, as you know with his brother in the Amazon and he would download all sorts of stuff. I almost feel like the implicit kind of foundational philosophy that he has is that mushrooms are aliens themselves. And the reason I think that is because, so in 1973, I believe Francis Crick, who discovered the double helical structure of DNA, wrote a paper and then he followed it up with a book in 1981 called Life itself. And it's all about how DNA, in 100 million years, it's too short of a period of time for it to have formed on Earth. So you needed some sort of pan spermia. And so you needed something to have traveled interstellar. What's the best candidate for traveling interstellar? Probably an extremophile, something like a mushroom. - Yes. - Mushrooms are almost like zip files of consciousness. They show up at the end of life and before life. And so like if you look at Chernobyl, for example, like what grows first after the, you know, experience mushrooms, you know, you have, they call it the wood wide web, I believe in Oregon, it's like the largest organism in the world is actually like a mycelial network. And then where it gets really trippy is like, if you think about a Kardashev four-scale civilization, which is Kardashev scales are basically like, our ability to harness energy, but you can think of it as like a completely intergalactic civilization that's like just very deep space-faring. What would it look like? Would it look like a kind of bipedal hominid where you like show up, you know, on another planet and you get this fragile kind of meaty thing that gets shot at? No, you would be this like zip file of consciousness, extremophile that would spread all throughout other planets. And you would basically create a symbiotic relationship with hosts and we all have microbiomes. It's passé to say that, but we also all have microbiomes that accompany the microbiomes. and there's the mind, connection is all there. of this passey thing to talk about. Obviously, you have the vagus nerve, you have neurotransmitters getting created. So, you know, mushrooms obviously affect our thinking. You can watch, you know, bullet ants in the Amazon, getting, like, taken over by cornicep mushrooms. And literally their whole muscular skeletal system are being, you know, they're being controlled by the mushrooms. And then you look at specific jumps in human evolution. And the one that people talk about is obviously the stone-daped theory, which is, you know, why did we double in cranial size between two million years ago, homo habilis and homo sapiens 300,000 years ago? That's really trippy. Maybe it was because, as hunter-gatherers, we were following, you know, animals, animals take shit. And there's psilocybin, Cubensis, or, you know, grow on poop. And, you know, and then people would, you know, trip out. They'd take these mushrooms and they trip out. And then you get, like, neurogenesis and you get these epigenetic changes and you get this doubling of cranial size. But what's the other big break in human evolution 10,000 years ago, which is the advent of civilization and culture? And think about, you know, what really is the kind of the line break there? What happened? We created, you know, an agrarian society, like, we basically agriculture. So you have wheat, barley, and rye, where the first crops that we grew. And what grows on wheat, barley, and rye? Ergot. Psychedelic substances. And so I think a lot of people assume that the agriculture gets created. And then you get specialization, you get urbanization, you get history, you get religion. All of these things are downstream of, like, we have more time. We can think about this stuff. But what if they're downstream of the tripping that occurred? And if you talk, if you look at actually, you know, the immortality key by Brian Murerescu, he will openly say, I think these mystery rituals go way back before the Greeks. And so you had pre-secratic rituals that Peter Kingsley writes about, Heidegger writes about this. So how far back did it go? Maybe it goes back to that that big break, you know, around then. And then you get into this thing of, like, our mushrooms, sort of symbiotic, you know, Kardashev four-scale aliens that, you know, are Trojan horses for their own species that, like, we ingest, they get into us. And then they sort of subtly control our thoughts, our behavior, our perception. And, you know, it goes back to the mechanic. Mechanic actually had this trip in the Amazonian forest. And he says about the mushroom, he says, he's speaking to the mushroom. And the mushroom says, within my memory exists the blueprints for hyper light drive ships. So it's like the mushrooms are seeding us with this ability to go into stellar. And think about all of the crazy ideas that we've gotten from psychedelics, you know. So who are we to say that our evolution is not being co-directed or assisted by, you know, something else? And we're now saying this in the, you know, we're saying this with bacteria and other things like that, that, you know, it's hard to say exactly what scale or hierarchy, you know, biological evolution occurs. But, you know, I think, I think, you know, mushrooms are a really great candidate. Also humans mistake human tissue for fungal diseases. We're so susceptible to fungal disease because human and mushroom DNA are actually very similar. Human and mushroom and mycelial DNA are more phylogenetically similar than humans in plant DNA. Yeah, mushrooms be there. There you go. Well, you tell people that they go, whoa. Yeah. And they can survive in a vacuum. And a vacuum in their very homeostatic in nature, they like can like eat plastic in certain situations and stuff. And so it's like they are the stewards of the earth. If you, if you get out of line too much or something, it's like they'll, you know, and then think about people that take mushrooms. They become more like conscientious vis-à-vis the entire earth. So they're, they're very sort of like, they're all about ecological balance. It's just so stunning how one presidential administration that was trying to stop the anti-war movement and the civil rights movement through water on like one of the most profound compounds that exists on earth. Totally. And Timothy Leary was probably the CIA construct, too. Is he so? I think says wife thought that. I think his wife thought. I believe so. I think there's a quote around that. Yeah. How so was he a CIA construct? Well, I think it was, it's similar to the, like, Tom O'Neill chaos theory with Manson where it's like, he looks like a hippie, smells like a hippie was living with Dennis Wilson, this, you know, beach boys or whatever. And then, and then he commits murder. So like, and then you have the Joan Didian quote that like, that's the day the 60s ended, you know, the date, the date of the Tate La Bionca murders. So I think it's maybe somewhat similar here where it's like you're dosing people with way too high doses. And you're like seeding a lot of stuff, you know, too much. And you're like, you're, there's actually a quote from Abby Hoffman, who was, you know, obviously, you know, big hippie at the time, or he's like, we were just upright, you know, Berkeley students who were protesting. And then here came the, the, the flower children from LA and Laurel Canyon and stuff. And they were all about their drugs and their murders and their guns. And they like, they were, they were just sort of really crazy. And so I think the theory is that Timothy Leary was sort of pushing this stuff in an overly aggressive way that would then cause this sort of backlash similar to the Manson thing. Well, they also had like weird connections to like Biker gangs, right? Like, didn't the Ken Keezy and the Mary Pranksters have weird connections with like the Hells Angels? Isn't that how Hunter Thompson got involved with the Hells Angels? I think there's some sort of connection. I might be making that up. I'm feeling very vague on this. But I believe they partied together quite a bit, which is like, if you were, I mean, I guess you're both outcast of society. You know, I guess you could kind of chalk it off to that, you know, like that maybe if you're hanging out in weird places, you're going to meet weird people. Yeah, totally. And I shouldn't say I'm like extremely high conviction. But even the connection with Biker gangs, like Biker gangs, did you read Hells Angels? No, it's really great. It's one of, I think it's Hunter's breakout book. And it was before, like, it was very clear that he was sort of blurring the lines between fiction and reality, like with literature, like a literary license. But what essentially happened was these guys came home from Vietnam completely dissolution. They'd killed a bunch of people. They'd been shot at. They'd seen their friends die. They didn't want to have any fucking part in this society anymore. And they just wanted to ride motorcycles and be free. And this is what started sort of the Biker movement in America. And when you think about the people that were in Vietnam, while Vietnam was all about drugs to begin with, the whole reason why we wanted control over that area of the world, that's the golden triangle. That's where they're bringing all the opium. That's where there was fucking billions of dollars of drugs coming through there. Same as Afghanistan, very similar in that way, is that we conveniently find really important conflicts that we have to be involved in. It just happened to be the hubs of massive amounts of drug money. And so when these people were over there, there were a lot of them were doing drugs. A lot of them were hooked on drugs. A lot of them came back and suffered through withdrawals when they returned to America. And so those are the type of people that you would imagine would be like, "Well, fuck this life. You know, I am just going to do whatever I can and I'll fucking rob the man, whatever. We're going to figure out a way to make our own society. And we're going to be outlaws. Just opt out. Yeah, opt out and do drugs. And that's what they did. And so it kind of makes sense in a way that they would sort of meet the flower children and Ken Keezy and the Mary Pranksters and Timothy Leary. It kind of makes sense that they would have interaction with each other. I feel like the boomers in that period, like the late 60s, early 70s, had this opportunity. Okay. Leary's research is rumored to be linked to CIA, which allegedly provide funded funding. CIA was greatly interested in the effects of mine altering drugs in the 1960s. And its drug research was incorporated into the controversial MK-Ultra experiments. Quote into Walter Boart, Leary admitted to working for the CIA since 1962 as an important national asset. He's quoted by Boart as follows, "I would say that 80% of my movements, 80% of the decisions I made were suggested to me by CIA people. I like the CIA exclamation point. This is crazy." The game they're playing is better than the FBI, better than the Saigon police, better than Franco's police, better than the Israeli police. There are a thousand times better than the KGB. So it comes down to, "Who are you going to work for? The Yankees or the Dodgers?" What? That's crazy. That's mad. This was a very weird six months he spent conveniently right after he got all the army as a non-commission officer. So he spent six months at Ohio State. Jamie all leads back to Ohio. This is a very weird thing that seems out to me. Boy, he just keeps coming back to Ohio. That's his number one rabbit hole. Oh, I know. We talked about it. We got right, Pat. - There, Wright Patterson, Air Force Base, you have Battelle Memorial Institute there. You have a lot of weird Epstein research. - They just took his name off the, he's been removed from the board, or head of the board, Chamber of the Board. - Who did? - A Wexner, because the Epstein stuff. - Really? - That was how it stayed. - Just now? - Just recently. - Just recently. - I mean, it took a better time. - I don't know, who's responsible over there? The Wright Pat stuff is nuts. - That's weird, because that is the place, when it was right airfoil field at the time, right? - Exactly. - When they think that they brought the Roswell crash. - Exactly, yeah. - Yeah, 47. - Yeah, and that would be the place where you would bring it to, because they were reverse engineering German pulse jet engines, Soviet migs, that sort of thing. And there was this rumor of a blue room there, that actually there's a crazy video of Barry Goldwater, who was a future presidential candidate, obviously, Senator from Arizona, and he's talking about Curtis Lemay, which chief of staff of the Air Force, and he's like, I ask Curtis Lemay to show me into the blue room at Wright Patterson, because it's this famous, allegedly sort of alien storage facility, and he goes, he cussed me out of the room. I've never seen him get more angry at me. - Cool. - So, man. - Here's your shack outside Phoenix, the Senator disclaims direct knowledge of UFOs, but he does confirm a disturbing story about an exchange with General Curtis Lemay. - Reportedly, a spaceship landed, and it was all hushed up, quieted, and nobody ever had never heard of it, much of it. I call Curtis Lemay, and I say, I know we have a room at Wright Patterson, where you put all his secrets. It's the worst audio ever. - I've never heard him get mad, but he got mad or in hell with me. Cussed me out, said, don't ever ask me that question again. - That's this audio by the same guy who did the video inside the UFO. - They're just trying to fuck with us. They're trying to fuck with us. That's also a really interesting aspect of this whole concept of whether or not consciousness is rendering these things. If you're dealing with this reality that's like subtly unfolding in front of you, you kind of would have it a little funky, a little weird, a little blurry, a little odd, like what better way to slow drip, introduce it to the general public, than to give it to you in these weird blurry videos, not like some 4K crazy video of a fucking mothership, size of a football field, flying over a city, undeniable. Nah, let's give you some fucking black and white night vision of a circle going in the ocean, coming out of the ocean, where you're like, what is that? What am I gonna add? What are the, well, that is a transmedium device that is gone into the water without creating a splash, I think it's out of the water and it's going 300 knots under the water. You're like, what? Exactly, what are you doing? No, it's almost like you said it's meant to fuck with us. We are, the end product is our belief system, and Jacques Vallet writes about this concept of intermittent reinforcement, which comes from the psychologist BF Skinner, which is like if you give a rat cocaine, for example, and you give it regularly, like on the dot every day or whatever, it'll like come back and forth and it'll not care as, I mean, it's cocaine, so it'll probably want it, but like, if you give a rat cocaine intermittently, randomly, sporadically, it'll freak out and just get obsessed, and maybe cocaine's not the best example, but anything sweet, it will become obsessed with the thing because there's something about the intermittency that makes it special. If it's regular, it doesn't care, it knows it's there, knows it's gonna be there at all times. And so I think there's something about the UFO phenomenon where it's trickery, it always leaves a variable left to be questioned, and the end product is the person's obsession for truth after the fact, because there's never gonna be this smoking gun. It always has a slight stigma attached to it. That almost like a design feature of UFOogy itself is the fact that I've never seen a field where there is this much evidence, but there is very little, incontrovertible smoking gun evidence. There's so much evidence that I had Michael Shermer, famous skeptic on my show who I know you've had on many times, and I feel like I ran circles around him because he's not engaging with these really important data sets around UFOs showing up around nuclear sites, and that sort of thing, you can really argue with, or you can convince any reasonable person that there is something going on, and then it's very hard to figure out exactly what, and for whatever reason there's this sort of mystery box smoking gun that maybe Bob Boussare has seen. David Grush, I think, is this really fascinating person because he has brought forward 40 people who claim to have firsthand knowledge to the intelligence community inspector general, so that makes him pretty special because he has this really bird's eye vantage point around all this stuff, and he himself has an idetic memory, he's somewhat on the spectrum, which he talks about. So he has this really crazy attention to detail, so it makes him this really interesting sort of person, and you have things like that, and then I don't know if there's a saucer and a hanger at right pat, I'd love to see it, it'd be awesome. And then you get into this sort of, well, if that's like a payload delivery system, then obviously we can't see it because it's like this national security thing, but it's almost like a design feature of the thing itself. If you were to tell Jacques Boulay in 1975, or in the '60s when he was jailing Heinix Assistant, hey, this is how much progress we've made on UFOs. I think from the perspective of disclosure, he might be pumped about the last 10 years, but from the perspective of like understanding what the fuck they are, he'd be like, I had the best theory back then, and I'd really get theories back then. So it's really crazy, we're in the stone age on this stuff. Actually, somebody who's really up on, I think he's responsible for a lot of modern disclosure, but he's blown by a lot of people as Tom DeLong, the plink on '82. Crazy, right? Like I thought he was a loon when he came on my show, but more and more as time has gone on, the things that he said have been proven to be true. Totally, and now, and I don't want to talk too much out of turn, but like, 'cause I'm friends with him, and he has some really interesting theories around consciousness and how like these events sort of occur when things are really unstable. So like, either to discard things that are unstable and that are threatening to sort of the system, I'll nuclear, or to save something that is essential to preserve the system. So it's like almost this like regulatory thing. It's like he's now miles ahead of, you know, I think we're at a lot of time. To me, I was always like, okay, why are they bringing Tom DeLong in to have conversations? And now, you know, like, he was being sort of briefed by very high-level intelligence people, right? Yeah. And that whole story of the two, the Star's Academy, is a strange, interesting-- It's all fucking weird. It's also weird that you would get the fucking drummer, or what did he do in Blink-22? I think it was a front man, I think. Yeah, yeah, not the drummer. It was Travis, obviously. Like, you get a guy who's a big-time rock star. He was obsessed his entire life. And I think-- So yeah, I think he was surrounded by some very interesting people. And in certain cases, not so savory people to be talking about. Really? Yeah, or just people who are associated with sort of information? Yeah, or like, you know, James Clapper, who like, you know, probably lied in front of Congress about wiretapping. So like, why should we trust you? UFO stuff, you know? And I'm not saying that, you know, Tom was necessarily-- I don't know who exactly he was in touch with, but I think it was like that crowd of, you know, people. But I think what people don't understand-- and this is what I pieced together from just knowing him-- I think he has sort of vigilante gotten in touch with a lot-- Like, a lot of these people shut the door in his face. And he's like, no, I'll fly out there, and I'll do anything. And like, I'll help communicate this way. I know you guys have been trying to communicate this forever to the public, and like, maybe I can help, or whatever. And I think a lot of it just stemmed from his desire to know, and his like true passion for this, that started from when he was a kid. And that was like super organic. But you also have to think, like, if you wanted to get a narrative out there, what better way than get a really famous rock star? Sure. Feed him some whore shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's possible, right? Yeah, but also if you read secret machines, I think there's a lot, then that's-- you know, he's written some books, actually. And if you read the books, there's some really interesting things kind of hidden in plain sight that end up getting corroborated in my own open source research. So I'll give you an example. He says that a UFO possibly came out of the sky during a high altitude. the two nuclear tests in the Marshall Islands in the early 60s. So these are these famous, you know, Bikini et ol, Johnston et ol, you know, Operation Dominic tests. And I think it was, he called it, yeah, during the Starfish Prime series. And I thought that, you know, that was nuts. Like, what are you talking like? A UFO came out of the plume. I know they show up around nuclear sites, but really did the UFO come out of the plume. So I end up interviewing this guy. He's a presidential advisor to JFK, LBJ Nixon and Ford. And he is 89 years old, completely like sharp as a tack, like with it. And just has this elite kind of macro kind of, you know, exact picture of the world in this head. I think he worked closely with Kissinger and like, just really knew his sort of stuff. When it came to just pros a conventional political trends, you know, outside of UFO stuff. And he had been tweeting some interesting things about UFOs. And then he starts going into this story. And I'm like, what, like, so basically he goes, I was in charge of the cost assessment for one of these high altitude nuclear tests. It's the, it's called the blue-gill triple prime test, part of the Starfish Prime series. In 1962, in October, actually during the Cuban Missile Crisis, it was October 25th. And he goes, we didn't have any way to defend against Soviet ICBMs at the time. So we, exactly. This is a gift plan. I can't control the video. So I was trying to look forward to it. This is, this is the video of the test and that white triangle was superimposed on, and there, that's the UFO falling out of the plume, which is insane. So explain it again. Okay. So, so basically. What's the falling out of the plume? A possible UFO object. Yeah, that. Well, you know about the images that were taken, what, you know, those, what is the method that was used, where they observed reflective things in the sky from, what was it? Was it radar or what? You didn't know I'm talking about Jamie, we've discussed this before, like they have photographs of the sky, they have some sort of an image of the sky from the 1960s. And they showed that there were multiple things that were metallic that were, I think you might, you might be talking about Beatrice, VR, Real, this Stockholm University astrophysicist. She's amazing. So I'll get back to this in a second, but, but she basically has these astronomical plates from the Palomar Observatory, which is what it is. Palomar Observatory was the most prominent observatory in use at the time. And she has these transients that she's, she's gotten on these astronomical plates. The plates have basically this, a motion that's sensitive to light so that, you know, basically when light goes through, you know, the optical circuitry of the telescope and then it hits the plate, you see like stars and planets and all sorts of things. You have a record of what's in the sky, right? And she saw 105,000 what she calls transients, which are light reflecting mirror-like objects, probably in geostationary orbit, which is where I think we see a lot of UFOs. And this is before Sputnik, before a man-made satellite was ever in space. This is from 1949 to 1957. It gets crazier because a PhD from Vanderbilt University, named Stephen Bruel, then correlated those transients, they show up more around nuclear detonations, nuclear tests. It's wild. Right. We have people like Brian Keating and, you know, Sabina Haasenfelder, who are like conventional physicists who are talking about this now, who are like, yeah, we don't really have a perfect debunk on this. Some people have thrown cosmic rays at it. Some people have said, you know, yeah, solar rays, but neither of those make any sense. And then there's a former NASA astronomer named Ivo Busco, who showed that some of these transits have, it's called the coma, which is like a little, kind of, looks like a little comet tail on the transient. And that gets created by the optical circuitry of the telescope itself. So the number one debunk on Beatrice was that these transients were artifacts of chemical staining and like issues they call them plate defects. And Ivo Busco is basically saying, no, the light is going through the telescope. It's going through the telescope, so it has to be an artifact of something outside of the telescope. So you're left with one conclusion, which is UFOs. And then you get into the fact that NASA has what are called like uncorrelated targets all the time. Like there's noise and the, they're transients that are detected all the time in the sky. And we just sort of rule it out all the time. So it's a, it's really crazy. And it's, I think it's very hard to debunk. And if she figures, if she proves this to be true, this is a, not only Copernican level discovery, it is greater than that. It is, it is a wild, wild discovery. And I have, I don't know, I don't want to say I'm like, you know, 100% sure it's legit. It's, you know, it's a little beyond my pay grade when it comes to the science, but I have not heard one good debunk on it. Not one. Whoa. Yeah. You would love talking there. Um, there's some speculation about some of these things falling from the sky that they took place because of these high altitude nuclear tests. So that's what this blue girl triple prime test. So this is an example. So Tom DeLong wrote about this starfish prime test and secret machines. And a lot of this stuff is sort of, you know, codes hidden in plain sight. And he had amazing sources. I mean, one of his sources is this general who's now missing William Neal McCaslin, who was in charge of the entire special access program oversight committee. And what he told Tom is he goes, uh, you want to know about the UFO issue. All you're going to find are a bunch of blind men touching different parts of an elephant, which is I think the whole fallacy of modern UFO disclosure, it's not like there's this line in the sand. Oh, here's the truth. We're going to give it to you. It's like, Oh, we have this program here and this program here and we're testing this stuff. But we don't really understand what it is. And it's kind of confusing. And so, okay. So DeLong writes about the starfish prime, you know, test, right, where this UFO comes out of the plume. I interview this guy, Harold Maumgram, who is well known in DC circles as this like elite statesmen outside of UFOs, like just kind of renowned, good, you know, very impressive reputation. He discusses being in charge of cost assessments for this specific starfish prime test, called the Bluegill Triple Prime test, where you put this X-ray device within the nose cone of a Thor X1 missile and it's specifically so that when, you know, the nuke detonates, the X-ray blast then can take out any surrounding ICBM. So it's, it's, there was no way to guard against Soviet ICBMs. This was the way to do it. He said in my interview with him that in fact, all along, you know, this, this may have been this sort of ploy to take out UFOs as well. His mentor, by the way, is Richard Bissell, who was the number two in the entire CIA and founded Area 51, and, yeah, wild. Whoa. Yeah. And so he is in charge of the cost assessment for this thing. He says that there's this, he gets briefed on it and he finds out that this object comes out of the plume of this thing and he goes, what is going on? He goes, I want access to that, this thing. And he gets like, I think, kind of stone walled a little bit. He ends up at the Sandia Complex in New Mexico, one of these national labs and Lawrence Preston Geiss, who went on to found DARPA and his Jeff Bezos' maternal grandfather hands him pieces of the UFO and he says and very sadly passed away a few weeks after I interviewed him. So there's so much more, you know, we wanted to learn and know about, you know, about this testimony but he says he held the pieces of the UFO in his hand. And there's a Freedom of Information Act request around the Starfish Prime series saying, I want all records from Starfish Prime series on UAVs, UFOs, UAPs, every acronym related to UFOs. And the National Nuclear Security Administration gets back and they say, you know, the responsive records that you asked for, you know, we referred them to the, to the right subject matter expert, implying that there are responsive records, that there are records from the National Nuclear Security Administration, which guards all nuclear secrets around UFOs at the time. There's also a guy named David Noble White Crow, who I think was a different Starfish Prime test, claimed to see a UFO like on his Navy ship. There's a guy named Bob Jacobs, who I've interviewed, who is a photo instrumentation specialist, who says that there were rumors of an object falling, falling, you know, down from the sky. In fact, if you look at the Navy deck logs, I just interviewed the Navy's former chief oceanographer, a guy named Tim Gallaudet. He is as well versed in Navy deck logs as anybody and as, you know, credentialed and qualified to read them as anybody. And he says that these look very anomalous and weird, like they retrieved something. And I think there was an outage on one of the ships. And there was an admiral named Admiral Starbird, who was named, I guess it was the senior officer present afloat, who flew in a, in a, in a half at 4 a.m. Once this thing was retrieved, he flew at 4 a.m., back to the state side. So this is a much better video of it. So there are two vantage points. And both were EG&G plans, and EG&G comes up all over nuclear sort of stuff. And Kettle I and Kettle II, and there's actually an Australian intelligence analyst named Jeff Krueckshank, he does an amazing job. analysis of all this stuff. And he calls this the Kettle 1 footage where you can see the UFO coming out. And the Kettle 2 footage is, it looks exactly like that footage, but there's a white triangle over the object coming out. And some people are like, oh, it's an emulsion defect, it's about, you know, whatever, he went to, he asked for a mandatory declassification review of this thing. And I think the guy in charge of it was a guy named Byron Ristvet. And that guy goes, we lost the, we lost the video, we lost the video. So it's either an emulsion defect or you lost the video, but like you have multiple stories. It's just like Roswell where it's like, you have, it's either crash dummies or it's a weather balloon or it's just, you know, or it's project mogul, high altitude radar balloon. You have three different stories or it's just fucking aliens, you know, or something, you know. So it's really crazy. And his Wikipedia was completely changed and destroyed the day, the day after. It was totally messed up and this, this hit piece was written about him. And it was, it was, it was actually after he died. So it was really fucked up because it was like kicking this guy after he passed away. And it was, I think it was such an amazing courageous testimony that I, I think we'll stand the test of time. Why do you think they attacked him just to try to dismiss whatever he was saying? To throw mud on it. I think a lot of counterintel in the space is not necessarily trying to shut down conversation entirely, but it's throwing mud on it. It's keeping it in this liminal space of like, I don't know, it could have happened. But and so they called, they moved him from presidential advisor to Japanese wailing lobbyist because he worked with every Prime Minister in Japan since, to Kana in the 70s. And so they're, and, and, and, down to Shinzo Abe. And they're calling him a, like, there was some scandal or something. And like, that, that was what they were identifying him with was this wailing lob. It's so crazy. So good at that. They're so good at throwing mud on things. It's so great. And it was infuriating to be honest. It was really upset because here was a guy who, he just pattern matched to this, like, really, you know, brilliant guy. And he had all these other amazing things to say about global macro politics, JFK's assassination, all these interesting things. And you're just like, kind of really, you know, messing with his legacy or you're kicking him when he's, when he's after he passed away. It's fucked up. It is fucked up. But that is what they do. Yeah. What is your take on Whitley's driver? I think I love Whitley as a person. And I think he, his, I get it's probably one of those things were in upstate New York, you know, as he describes in communion, something probably happened. He probably is one of these people who like, you know, if, if we are nodes of consciousness that attract, you know, either very normal things or weird things based on our aperture and our sort of understanding of reality, his is wide open. You know, he is, he is extremely high in the openness category. And I think that's where things get kind of sticky with some of these sort of super experiencers because I think they're often very credulous. But that goes hand in hand with having a lot of weird experiences. And so I think Whitley's gotten stuff wrong. I do. And, you know, hopefully, don't come down on me. You a folk community for saying that. I think he's, I think he has said some wacky things that I'm like, like, what? I know. Well, we talked about one of them. I don't know if you remember that. Which one was it? It was like, he said that there was a fly. Yeah, I remember that one. Yeah, I brought that one up before because I remember watching a video. I'm like, okay. What are you doing? Because it was a fly. He's like, is that a man in a suit? Yeah. I was like, wait, I can't find that video, by the way. I've tried very hard to find that video after the fact. I think very strange stuff does go on. You know what he says? He says, I was picked as a node for disclosure because of the plot. It would be plausibly deniable. It's what you're talking about where there's there is. He's this whore. He was this horror writer. He was a fiction writer before he had his encounter. Which is also part of the problem. It's part of the problem. Incredible imagination. For sure. And then it's also part of his ability to decide. It's why communion was a bestseller. So it's weird. Like, it's creates this sort of cult like mythology. And then I look, I know a lot of experiencers where I'm like, I know that I mean, I really believe them that they've had experiences with, you know, grays specifically. And it's a very common trope that they'll walk by communion in like a Barnes and Noble bookstore and it'll freak them out. And that will be like their own hypnotic regression. They'll book, oh, like they've never seen a gray before. And that's the first time they've seen a gray. Yeah. The cover of the book is amazing. It's amazing. Who else had a book called communion? Remember, we had them on and we're like, do you know that your book is the same title as a Whitley striber, but it's completely different. Remember that, Jamie? Someone like fairly recently. We have too many people on this book show. My hard drive is cooked. JD fans. That's right. Oh, he had a book called communion. While simultaneously calling aliens demons, demons. Yeah, he didn't really have a good explanation for that. I pressed him on that. And he kind of laughed very uncomfortably. Yeah, what to say. I think with all due respect to Mr. Vance, who I really like as a person, I think he's a very nice guy. I think he's signaling to the tribe. It is. It's a political polemic. You're not looking at the data. Like he says, I want to look into the UFO issue. I just haven't had the time. I actually understand that there's a lot going on in the world, you know, but it's also you've had some time. So maybe, you know, go look, go look into it, but it kind of understand it, but kind of don't I'm with you, you know, I'd get me the first thing to go to church. Like listen, bro, look into it. Look into it. Exactly. To quote Eddie Bravo. Look into it. It's weird that you would say it's demons, but I think that much like Tucker Carlson has sort of alluded to this as well. I think there's a certain aspect to people that are believers. Right. Okay. When I say believers, I'm talking about like Christian believers, believers in the Bible, believer believers in the narrative that comes along with Christianity, you know, and that for them, there's like, if you say, I believe their demons are, he's on our side. There's, you know, there's a, there's you will, you will attract those people. They will, that will resonate with certain people. And I do think very unfortunately, that there are politicians that say things, we both know this, that they don't necessarily believe because they think that their base wants to hear it totally. Yeah. Yeah. You're a traditionalist. You're like it. Why do we have to deal with this new age bullshit? Yeah. It's just, you know, go back to the scripture and their demons. Oh, I like it. It's exactly, and it's a, it ends the conversation because then it's like, okay, but if there are demons, there are angels too. And what is a demon and what is an angel? Well, so where's the evidence of these demons are doing anything demonic? Well, here's where it gets interesting, which is if you actually talk to a Jacques Valle, who I do think is probably as deep as anybody as far as decades studying the stuff, going to, you know, 100 plus crash sites, talking to probably thousands of experiences. And he'll often say, you know, some of this stuff does pattern match to demonic behavior, where it is sort of this, you know, getting you to chase your tail. It's, you know, it's paralyzing you. You know, in some cases, it's sort of angelic as well. In the case of Mario and Michael, they say, do not fear, do not fear. That's exactly what Daniel and the Bible heard, you know, in the banks of the Tigris, do not fear, is if the Bible, if the angels and the Bible have like a, you know, a catchphrase, it's do not fear. And so he actually notes that there are some similarities. So I think the, they're two failure modes, right? It's the end of the conversation, like, you know, I'm religious, I don't want to hear it, sort of thing. And then on the other side, it's like, you can't even look at the Bible as data, or like any past mythology or lore, as possibly overlapping with, you know, sulfur and ammonia seem to be the smell, sulfur is the sign. You know, so, you know, what would that being, you know, at Virginia, you know, where that thing crawling around, that probably would have been called a demon, like a thousand, two thousand years ago. There's a reason you look at it. It was like a weird color body with red eyes and it looked like it had like these tiny little horns. Totally. By the way, I just interviewed the Brazilian, the former Brazilian defense minister and I brought up Virginia and he goes, I believe it happened. Yeah. Whoa. So we're making progress. Allegedly. Allegedly. Yeah. Well, then there's also the guy who was physically in contact with the, that died. The guy. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. James Fox, watch a moment of contact. If you want to know what we're talking about, basically you have 15 to 20 people alive today. In this small town in Virginia, 130,000, you know, person town and they knew nothing about Roswell, UFOs, you know, they're just town in Brazil. And in 1996, in January, James Fox's amazing researcher, documentary has triangulated the flight path of this kind of tick-tack object that came down this, this ultra light pilot and geography teacher named Carlos de Sosa was first on the scene. He smells all these sort of weird sulfur ammonia smell. He actually holds the material, apparently, and then it's taken from him by, I guess, Esa is the is, you know, nearby military base, 15 minutes later, he has this sort of men in black experience where somebody comes up to him at a gas station seems to know everything about him and his family and swears him to secrecy. Meanwhile, the beings are running around this town and the beings end up in this hospital, regional as hospital, and this neurosurgeon, who I've met and interviewed, who was the chief neurosurgeon, basically like probably the most senior guy in Virginia, but I think even senior, you know, in Brazil, as far as, you know, neurosurgeons go, he says that he treated this being, and that, or I guess he was faced to face with the being for four minutes, and he was checking the work of his colleague who had treated the being, who had done this like minor surgery on the being. And apparently if you go to this hospital and you say like, hey, you know, is this the being where the ET was treated, they'll be like, yeah, yeah, this is a, and Virginia itself has a big saucer, yeah, you know, in homage to this entire event, it's amazing. Well, that's, what's up? - I hate doing this, but please do. I just was looking up like, you know, I have perplexity, I asked Virginia UFO incident, debunked or not, never have done that before, and I've never heard this brought up. This is a known guy, his name is Modinho, from that area, and he is in the exact same position as the alien picture. - Yeah, weird. - Yeah, but if you treated that guy for a headwind, you would know that that's the headwind. - And does he smell like salt for it? - Local man with disabilities, who is reportedly seeing crouching and heavy rain, that they did a 600 page inquiry. - 'Cause it was the personality or unusual. - Military is a-- - Could he have flown in on a craft with-- - And again, I'm just sort of thinking. - Was he so stinky that when the officer brought him into the hospital, the guy died of a bacterial infection, they couldn't treat. - That's the crazy thing. Then there's this guy, Marco Sherezi, who's the soldier that grabbed the ET being and apprehended it, and his whole family knows about this. And then he gets an autopsy. I interviewed the guy who did the autopsy, and he was like, this was like this gnarly form of this bacteria that I've never seen in my life. And the guy who's president of ITP, IPD, which is the company that does the autopsy report, he even said, yeah, I think it was from the nail of the ET, accidentally, the being didn't mean any harm to this guy, but there was a puncture wound, and it created this horrible, viral infection, or as I think it was bacterial infection, and he died of that. It's so crazy. - Yeah. - What? (laughing) - It's so nuts, but I mean-- - The Virginia one is really crazy. - It's really crazy. - 'Cause there's so many people that-- - But then the problem is, I would love to have talked to them in 1996, individually, without them knowing that this was going to be a global story, and when they can all sync up their memories. - I know. And I'm praying that we get a case like that, you know, at some point, it's better than RAW as well. 1947, we're really reading the tea leaves on that. So it's 1996, you have 15 to 20 people alive who have either saw the craft or the being. That's pretty amazing. - The young ladies, there were girls at the time, and then when they get interviewed later, when they're grown women, and they're talking about the incident, it's very strange. But I think the strange one is the cop who goes to the scene of the crashing, starts weeping, and he starts really, I'm like, okay, well, either this cop is the best actor that's never been in a movie ever, or he's having a real response to some sort of crazy memory of an event. - That was Carlos DeSosa, the geography teacher, and he led them around to your point for two hours or something before finding that spot. And I think if you were acting, you'd be like, yeah, this is the spot. You wouldn't be like, there was a white shed there, and it's not here anymore and confused, and apparently there was a white shed there that was removed or whatever. And then finally, when he sees the spot, you just see him palpably break. It's not this, unless you're taking some acting class on the side of it. - It's not like you're a fucking genius. - You're the next Daniel Day Lewis. What are you doing wasting your time in Brazil? - Exactly. - To telling UFO stories. (laughing) He could've Hollywood young man. - Yeah, but it's also the problem is I wanna believe it. - I know. - It's also the problem. - Me too. - I don't wanna believe it's like, the thing about like Roswell in particular, Roswell, it has become an industry, right? There's the whole tourist trap thing, there's the little gray, big bites, things in knick-knacks at stores. - It's like it's got this whole connection to it. - It does. It's its own cottage industry. It becomes people's identities. And they often wanna keep it going. And sometimes they'll have like, and this other thing happened to me too. Wait, you know, come back sort of thing. - Did you see the conversation that Travis Walton had with Bob Lazar in a diner? - Yeah, that was on my buddy's show, Chris Ramsey Area 50. - What a weird way to do a show. - You have a diner in the like, you have these two guys sitting across from each other. It's very odd how they did it. But I didn't think that was necessary, but the conversation's interesting. - It's super interesting to hear the similarities between, you know, their accounts, and yeah, things that line up. And those two guys are also kind of again, in that top tier of like, you spent time with them, I haven't spent time with Travis Walton, but I have with Bob. And it's like, you know this, it's like really hard to poke holes in the story. And they just, to go back to our original, you know, OG, the top of this conversation, like the pattern matching is just there with him. He doesn't seem like a bullshitter. - Travis doesn't seem like a bullshitter at all. And I talk to him for several hours, and you know, before and after the show. And he's also a guy who's had the same story for 50 years. It's the same story. - Yeah. - It doesn't really vary. They all took lie detector tests. One of the guys that was a part of the crew actually hated him. He got in a fist fight with him the day of the event. And he told the exact same story. - Yeah, and he came back, there was missing time. And I think he came back with a full ground beard. - Five days later. - Five days later. Yeah, it's very strange. - But his clothes weren't dirty. He's like, and he had this insane story. - And they all stuck to the same story. - Yeah, yeah. Well, they thought those guys killed him at first, so they were, they were, they were, - They did, they were questioning. - Yeah, they're like, where the fuck is he? And they're telling the story and they're like, what? And then he comes back five days later and tells the story. And they're like, what is, like, what? Did you guys all plan this? Like, what the fuck is going on? But it doesn't seem like they did. - So Trepp and he like touched the craft and it was, had this electromagnetic charge or something, like bounced off of it. Either he touched or he got close to it, right? - Got close to it. And that's common to, yeah, maybe he got close, I don't know. But that's common for UFO experiencers, where it's like, you experience like weird electromagnetic effects, where it's like, almost like you're getting a sunburn, where you get, like, you know, UV damage. - It's actually in close encounters of the third kind. It's depicted where, you know, Richard Dreyfus literally has a sunburn after his encounter. - On one side of his face, where it was to the left of his face, 'cause it was outside the window. - Exactly, exactly. And Mario Woods also, and Ellsworth, you know, South Dakota, he also had burns and he didn't know where they came from. They took skin samples. - And would they discover? - I don't know. I think that part's classified, unfortunately. - Oh, God. - Wouldn't you just love to have an actual experience yourself? I mean, imagine, thinking about all the time you spent studying this, and you haven't had an actual experience yourself. - I've seen UFOs, but I have it, I know, I haven't had a close encounter of the third kind. - What have you seen? - I saw, in Laurel Canyon, I saw a UFO, and then in Silver Lake, I saw, you saw this weird place of disease in LA. - Would it look like? - One was, I told one of them on your, I think I told both of them on your show, but one was like a school bus, sort of thing, which is really weird. It was like, you know, kind of, you know, rectangular. And it was hovering like right above the treetops. It was not very high, and it was sort of silently moving over the treetops, and I was with a friend at the time, and she saw the UFO descend over the treetops, like, like, go into some, you know, we were in a residential areas in Laurel Canyon. And so that was very strange. I didn't see that, I didn't see it sort of descend. I just saw it go over, but it looked like a floating, again, school bus, like a thing, and there's no visible propulsion, it was this strangest thing. - How fast was it moving? - That's hard for me to say. I don't know. - Not fast. - Not fast, yeah. - Like, it could have been a balloon. - Yeah, there's no way. - Really? - No. - Why? - Because it's floating like a balloon, like a-- - Because it was like helium balloon? - Yeah, I get, maybe it could have been a balloon. - A large balloon. - A large balloon. - Maybe, I don't know, it was like, it was right above the treetops, and you heard this sort of little hum, and I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. I don't think it was a balloon, but maybe it was a balloon. - I mean, think about blimps. Like, if you didn't know what a blimp was, and you saw that thing flying over there, I'd be like, oh my god, we're doing it. - But I've seen plenty of blimps, and they're usually like really high in the sky. - And this thing, like-- - But they don't have to be, right? That's how they come down. - Yeah. - Right. - This thing was definitely not a plane, but I can't, I don't remember the exact, you know, details as to what it was. - No noise. - Like kind of like a low bassy thing, but no, like, not normal, not normal. Propulsion, no, like Basie, like it was like a like a yeah, that sort of thing. Yeah Like the fan that's moving the balloon, but not not at all like a you know a chopper or a our plane or anything and Yeah, I don't know as far as it just looked metallic like if it was a blimp or something It would have been like perfectly like I don't know it had had some sophisticated signature management to look like it was like You know perfectly metallic and shiny, but like my lower balloons They look very metallic. Yeah, but I think you could see that it was floating you could see that you know Possibly that it was moving with the wind Mm-hmm, and this didn't look like it was moving with the wind at all looked like it was sort of moving against the wind Hmm. I mean not not necessarily moving against it, but moving agnostic to the wind is what I'm trying to say If there was a way where you could sit down and conjure up an experience With something would you do it? Conjure up an experience what do you mean? Like if you could in a meditative state access like what whatever connection and And have like a Betty and Barney Hill type experience I wouldn't try to artificially do that necessarily. I mean I Would I would love to have an experience, but maybe organically like if it's sort of you know meant meant for me sort of thing, but that is There are whistleblowers who've come out this guy like Jake Barber, for example that talks about essentially programs Forcing people systematically to conjure up these sorts of experiences. Right. That's why I asked yeah Yeah, yeah, no, and I I think there's so I think there's a long tradition of Communing with these sorts of things that goes back to like kind of Merck Kaba Kabbalistic practices You know neoplateness would call it theology like, you know kind of communing with deities and I don't think it's a coincidence that I think they're aspects of You know Stephen Greer say what you will about the guy see five there are aspects of that that are maybe similar to some of these sort of protocols Yeah, that involved sort of communing with these things and Traditionally, you're not supposed to do this stuff unless you are like fully like a pure intent you're probably older like you're not supposed to start Kabbalah for example till you're 35 Yeah, I think you're supposed to be married as well. You're supposed to be like very rooted in reality Interesting. Yeah, so and then there's like a Jewish mysticism, right? That's a Jewish mysticism, but there are Christian versions of it and you know I I think they're yeah, they're there they're versions of it kind of a cross history the neoplateness that a virgin a version of it as well, so You know, I think this is Something that yeah, I think the Jews had it with you know Ezekiel's wheel and the kind of Merck Kaba texts, but I think there's there's more Yeah Well, the weird stuff when you get into the Bible itself is the stuff that wasn't put in the Bible I know you're getting say the Enoch stuff. It's so weird. The Enoch stuff is really weird And when they find it in these clay tablets in Kumaran along with Books in the Bible like the book of Isaiah was also in there like okay, what What was that and how and how much that sounds like Greek mythology like these Gods sort of mating with mankind yeah And apparently it's still in the Ethiopian Bible the Ethiopian Bible has the All of the books of Enoch all the different Tales of the watchers and the book of the watchers and all that stuff where they came down and mate with the daughters of men What created the Nephilim that's in the Ethiopian Bible that is so trippy It's so trippy. It's so trippy, and then they create the Nephilim And then you get into the Timothy Alburina stories, which you know, yeah, I know he was on your podcast where There might be giants in Afghanistan that the air forces encountered in the early 2000s, and you had Devon LaRotte on as well You know, was he famous arm wrestlers that right who served for the Canadian special forces in Afghanistan and saw man There was like massive so it was like eight feet tall and I think a Mutual friend of ours Brigham-Bueller shout out ways to well. They're the best He has an employee who also I think was special forces in Afghanistan And he says That there were there were I think you know large beings there like giants there as well So it's like a bunch of like anecdotal and that's just us. That's just you know So yeah, it's fucking super weird and do you know that these the latest Take on the the Denisovans or Denisovans however you want to say it You know which is a very recent discovery I think the first Even recognition that there was another type of human called the Denisovan I think that's how they pronounce it. I always say Denisovan They believe they might be much larger than human beings now They used to think that they were squat like neanderthals and thick brows and but now they realized their heads were much larger than ours And that these could potentially be an eight foot tall people I didn't realize that This is fairly recent. So when was the just put this in the prospect perplexity? When was the discovery of Denisovans or Denisovans? I want to say it's real recent like maybe 2016 or something like that like real recent where they didn't even know that there was this branch of the human species I feel like we've discovered a large percentage of hominids Okay, so okay. They founded in Siberia in 2008 It was identified as a previously unknown group of archaic humans in 2010 the key fossil small finger bones been excavated from the Denisova cave in Siberia in 2008, but DNA analysis published in 2010 revealed it belonged to a population distinct from both the neanderthals and modern humans I think they have more now than just the finger bone and I think that is where they're getting at I think they have skulls Various wild and highest known. Oh, this is people who have the DNA So does some of the DNA estimations? Melanasian populations, especially people with ancestry and popo nugini and nearby Pacific islands roughly four to six percent of their genomes That's interesting What uh, let's find out how many bones they have available Because I think there's I think there's brow ridge bones and there's skull bones that seem to indicate that it had a larger or larger skull than humans And they think how much bone has been recovered or found let's find out Do do do do very little um Denisovans are known for a small number of fragmentary fossils not complete skeletons Do they have skull or do they have a mandible Partial lower jaw from the Tibetan plateau. It was identified as Denisovan Through ancient protein analysis rather than recoverable Denisovan DNA No complete Denisovan skull or skeleton Um, we just google army now. Excuse me search for me um Denisovan skull Like see if there's images Because I think there's a brow Hmm Like the problem is it's like you're you're looking for stuff. Yeah So like what is that is that just a recreation of what it looks like wow it seems like a recreation But this is what they think it look like it's like a Eugene levy situation huge eye brows look at the the brow ridge So how much is this real and what is this AI like what is this well I know it complexity not caught up to the latest evidence like in Peru Perracus skulls are 30% higher volume right often than normal skulls some of them are right that's the weird shit with the elongated head That gets real weird. This has a fairly elongated head as well But it's not like upwardly. It's it seems to like move towards the back. Yeah, but it's a pretty large So is that an actual So that's an actual Denisovan skull it seems like proplexity is relying on older data or older papers Because I I do think that this is part of why they're saying that they think they might have been much larger. Hmm What's going on This is natural history what is being eaten a bone That they were eating hyena bones do that could just pull this picture off of this website. I don't know Okay fossil evidence of a mysterious southern Denisovans yet to be found a replica of a homo erectus cranium So okay, that's from Indonesia. I know. I'm just saying that's this picture showed up and right And so that's what that is But what is that image that what the prominent brow ridge like that one? Yeah, I know. It's that I'm trying to track it down That's coming from a nature article that I couldn't get into it's pay world. So if they haven't found this much then I think Based off of it's a pictures. I'm seeing they probably be built it off of this tooth they found, and then expand it out to the ear, because there's a little picture of a tooth right there, but I don't know. So that seems like a job on that they found. So if that, it turns, again, we're talking about something that's recently discovered. They only knew that this thing existed 16 years ago, which is really a part of the problem with this whole term fossil record. We like to think of the fossil record as being a library. That's not. It's like it's really limited in terms of how many things that die leave fossils. It's a tiny fraction. Same with the archaeological record, it's the same thing. Well at least the archaeological record, we have physical stuff, like we can look at, you know, socks they want mom, we can look at the pyramids, we can, we don't really know what happened and who built it, but at least there's physical stuff there that defies explanation. But if you have a cataclysm, and we probably did during the icy, you know, more than likely. More than likely. The idea that we didn't have a cataclysm seems silly at this point. It seems like there's so much physical evidence. It's almost like the longer we go, the more hominids we find, and the longer we go, the older things get archaeologically, and it's actually predictable. It makes sense that both of those would be the case. Obviously, our abilities to map and have sensors and figure this stuff out is increasing and lower in the sediment layer of any sort of dig, it's going to be like older stuff. Yes. So archaeology is 200 years old, literally the discoveries of the, you know, Babylonian cities, 200 years ago. That's right. So you're in cities, yeah. Have you seen, I think he's an Italian guy, there is a new paper that's being published about the dating of the pyramids, and he's relying on erosion evidence. Yeah, I think relative erosion method. Yes. Donini, I think is exactly him. Yeah. And he pushes it. Woo! Back. Yeah. Yeah. He pushes it back as recently as, oh god, I want to say like 16,000, and then the high end is 35,000 plus. That's crazy. That's crazy. It's crazy. Which is like, what? Yeah. What are you talking about? Yeah, yeah. This is a 35,000 year old building. What does that even mean? Who? Who? Speaking of, did you see that they retracted this? Oh. Yeah. Yes. He contacted me about this. He's very upset. Yeah. They retracted it without any explanation without any justification. My, I'd like to call it nuance to take, is that I think, I don't think he's lying, I don't think he's a fraud, but I think that he needs to just open source his method. Because basically you have this synthetic aperture radar Doppler tomography. Which is synthetic aperture radar is a known technique for radar imaging. And it radar images at like very fine resolution. And then you have this ability to measure micro vibrations that transmit into the satellite signal. The thing that is only his, his and only his is this Beyondy method, which is this software where he is able to deduce these structures, you know, underneath the earth based on that. So do I think he's lying about the Grand Saso laboratory, which is, you know, this other sort of, I think, particle accelerator national lab out there that he was able to like perfectly measure and 1.2 kilometers into a mountain into a mountain. Yeah. I, I would really hope not and I don't think so. And, but then at the same time, I think it's like, dude, you gotta, like you're, you're talking about like a Nobel Prize or something here, like just, just let it out. Like either you either have to get really, really rich and keep it close source or the preference that I would have. And I think that would be best for humanity. It's just open source, the thing. And you know, I think it's his life's work. So I think he's a little possessive around it. But that would be the one thing where I'm like, dude, just let it, let it out or let somebody else replicate it. Interesting. Because they've used this method to identify structures that are known to exist. And they've, right? Yeah. And I think the, what is it, the Osiris draft, I think? Yeah. Yeah. So, and it's, and it got the right dimensions. And if it's correct in, if he's telling the truth about what it was able to deem from the particle accelerator, when it was looking at the particle accelerator, it got the exact dimensions of it. It knew where it was. And so it's like, we need to dig. We need to do something. So there's all those, there's one thing that he brought up on the podcast, those shafts that exist around there that have been filled up with debris and sand and dirt over time that they need to clean that shit out and get down in there and find out. Like what is, because we know that there's all these subterranean tunnels and passages that are all around Egypt. Like for sure, they know that that labyrinth exists, that that Herodidus discovered and that he talked about in great detail. They knew, they know from ground penetrating radar, these, these, these great chambers in there. Even Zahih Awas will admit that there are tunnels underneath the springs. Right. So like, yeah, I think more likely than not, there is something underneath the pyramids. Yeah. And then we just have to dig. We got to get down there. And if you're Egypt and you're the Ministry of Culture, that's the most GDP boosting thing. You can think of. God. Imagine if both, is it, what's the other guy's name, the Italian guy, the erosion guy? I think Donini. Donini. If Donini and Beyondy, first of all, what a great fucking Italian duo. Like if these two guys from Italy have cracked two different things, one of them with erosion science and the other one with ground penetrating Doppler tomography. If those guys are correct, you're going to have like a gigantic group of new people that want to come and check out Egypt. That would be so awesome, but you have to get past these gatekeepers of the timeline. The gatekeepers of the timeline really want to insist to 2,500 BC is as bad as it gets. Yeah. And it's like, it's all good. It's the land that modern Egypt is on. Like that's fine. Like you can sort of like, take pride in the fact, even if it's older. And it's not necessarily like, it's still Egypt. It's still Egypt. That's amazing. That's really dumb about the critics of these theories. They all want to attribute it to a bunch of different people. Like you and I are fucking alien cooks. And we're not trying to. We're saying like, no, it's probably people had a super advanced civilization, that part of the world, a long time ago. And what you're getting is multiple generations of people after the fact, trying to recreate some of these ancient structures. And that these ancient structures probably predated whatever civilization existed at 2,500 BC. Yeah. And you have to throw spaghetti at the wall. Like it's like, it's your duty to speculate because the conventional narratives don't make any sense at all. At all. At all. And then you have people grasping as well. There's a French guy, John Pierre Houdin, who is like, you know, civil engineering chops. And he's talking about like an external ramp, but then an external ramp would, you know, the incline would be too high for these, you know, megaton bricks, you know, blocks. So then you end up with an internal ramp as well. So it's like, we are, that is like the best explanation, right, conventionally. And so let's, let's try to figure it out and let's be a little creative. And we don't need to like, you know, stay so narrow. Like all these skeptics are like, they're, they're, you know, attack dogs for what? Well, the problem is they don't want these Jimmy Corsetti's and Michael Buttons and all, all of these people that have enormous following online to have any point. They don't want that. They want to dismiss them outright, which is why they always use the same pejoratives. They always call them racists and they're white supremacy is one that they've attached to Graham, which is hilarious because he's married to an Indian woman. I mean, it's the whole thing is so stupid, but he's the most non-racist person you're ever going to meet in your life. He's just completely open minded. And also, that doesn't take away all the factual data, all the stuff that's like, the stuff that's really weird, that's hard to describe. When you're talking about a structure that is perfectly aligned almost to true North South, East and West, and has 2,300,000 stones, and used to be covered in smooth limestone, and somehow or another was the greatest structure that human beings have ever created. And is bare minimum, 4,500 years old. That is a mind-fuck. And anybody who says that's not a mind-fuck. And when you're talking about some of the stones, like particularly in the King's Chamber, there are hundreds of tons, or a hundred tons, or 80 tons, or whatever they are. And it's from hundreds of miles away through the mountains with no roads, no heavy machinery, and they're placed way the fuck up on the ceiling of this place. It perfectly, totally. There's also the weird mind-fuck of the sarcophagus in the King's Chamber, which aligns with the same dimensions where you could fit the arc of the covenant in it. >>No way. >>Yes. >>Really? >>Oh, there's a lot of people that believe this. There's a real problem with the measuring of radioactivity, too. They try to say that there's a higher level of radioactivity inside the sarcophagus than in the outer walls. But the problem is, when people talk about radiation and stones, like stones, they have a certain level of radiation just in hell. Apparently, you know, like, you can, like, the sun has radiation. Like there's, there's, there's Geiger counters can go off. Yeah, yeah. But the people that are like, they're really, they're really out there. They think that that might have been the positioning for the arc of the covenant. And that it measures, like if you look at the Bible's description of the dimensions of the arc of the covenant, it fits conveniently inside the sarcophagus in the King's Chamber. Well, that's crazy. It is crazy. Well, it's also crazy that Graham believes that the Ethiopian Bible and the, the, these Ethiopian religious people who have supposedly this group of people that are supposed to watch over the arc of the covenant and that they are in possession of it and that these people that watch over it, they all develop cataracts and they can only do it for a little while and then they wind up dying. So they have like short ten years as the watchers of this, whatever the fuck this object is, that they're calling the arc of the covenant. Stories of their faces getting mangled if they walk inside. He was so afraid. This was actually, I think, one of his first articles for like a magazine before he got into all this. This is how it got him into it in the first place. Got into it in the first, but you know, another crazy story is, um, I think it's, uh, Sir James Bruce was looking for the arc of the covenant and he found the book of Enoch, but he was searching for the arc of the covenant. But yeah, they think it's an axomy theopia and there are Templar crosses, I believe, on a church there as well and so, and Graham talks about this. And so that's his connection because they, you know, they're obviously legends of the Templars being these sort of knights that guarded, you know, uh, you know, after, after the destruction of the temple, the arc of the covenant and so maybe they actually did make it all the way down to Ethiopia, which is wild. It's so wild. If that thing was actually in the center of the sarcophagus in the King's chamber, in the pyramid, whatever that thing is, it's a, it's a, I mean, the, the one maybe counter argument or something I'd be curious about would be the Nazis were obsessed with the arc of the, like the Indian Jones plot is like legit. Yeah. The Kimler would go in these weird quests or whatever around this stuff. But I guess Italy and Ethiopia had that war around, around that time, I believe, right? Or like, why wouldn't the Nazis just go in and try to take this object? Maybe they weren't aware. Who knows? This guy Olendorf says he went and saw it in 1941 and that's, uh, uh, replica. He stated that he gained access in 1941 because he spoke classic, oh, how do you say that? CDEs and appeared serious. However, he asserted the box inside was empty and described it as an empty middle-to-late medieval replica rather than the true biblical artifact. So he's the only guy that's gained access and this was in 1941 and he's a British officer during World War II and later a professor of Ethiopian studies at the University of London interested. I want to know the details, like how does he know that it's an artifact or it's replica. Or it's, yeah, sorry, that's a replica, rather, yeah. There are, I did look this up just I think yesterday. Oh, you did? Rabbit hole. Jamie. Captain Rabbit hole over here. I was, I was, I found on this rabbit hole because I was trying to find out where it happened to the, uh, staff of Moses. I was just was thinking about weird things that existed in history and also the Ark of Covenant. Last time it was actually known that where it was was 586 BC. Ooh. So like, when Jesus was around, no one knew where it was. That's interesting. 586. So hundreds of years before his 600 years before Jesus. Whoa. Yeah. I know the walls of Jericho were supposed to come down, I think. Yeah. It was the Ark of the Covenant. Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem that tore down the cathedral. What? It's also, I stumbled across something called the Medaba map. Have you heard of that? No. Uh, it was found, it's a mosaic of like ancient Jerusalem found around six CE. And it shows, I've never heard of this before. So I was actually trying to show you like the best way to describe it, but it's all like ancient Greece. It was a mosaic underneath the floor in a different church that they found while they're about to make a new church. So they were doing like reconstruction and they found this map of ancient, it's pointing things out here. This isn't the best way to describe it. I'm sorry, but, um, they've mapped it all and found things that, I think it was found in like 1895, right around turn of the century. So it shows like where Jerusalem was, where all these things are in reference to each other and all these places that were in the Bible and whatnot. Wow. And I guess people didn't know about them and that's when some of the stuff is, you know, getting validated. Jordan's Medaba map. That's what it looks like. That's the actual image of it. Yeah. It's really, I mean, it's old school, you know, I guess tiles and little pieces of fragments of different things that is artistic was covered up probably multiple times. Mmm. So, wow. Well, then there's the weirdness of the arc of the covenant and the dimensions match this object that's on Mount Ararat, which is exactly where it's supposedly it landed in the Bible. What? Yeah. Really? Yeah, yeah. There's a bunch of people that firmly believe that this object on Mount Ararat, is that the Moses' staff? Now, this one is, so this, it, it turns out, let's, I don't know if this is real. This is where I was. The rabbit hole was good and real weird here. It's in a palace and Istanbul, I believe, where there's other relics. It's like the palace of relics or something like that. There's the sword of the prophet David from tense BC. Somehow they got you like David and Goliath. What? King David. Yeah. And there's a bunch of things from Muhammad there. There's like a piece of a tooth, a piece of a beard. Well, I don't, and that's what, I don't, to say it's not real, I don't know, it just looks like a stick, but the biblical like descriptions of it are that it turned into a serpent, serpent at one point. You know, this is what part of the Red Sea? Hmm. Go to the Mount Ararat stuff, because the Mount Ararat stuff is really weird. There's even like a whole touristy center that you can go there where they describe it as being the landing spot of Noah's Ark, but apparently what's weird is the analysis of the ground underneath it and that there's organic material that aligns with the dimensions of the boat. No way. Yeah. Wow. It's really weird. Well, just the object itself, like whatever the fuck that is. Oh, this is in Eastern Turkey. It's yes. It's on Mount Ararat. I heard about it. Just the dimensions itself fucking weird. Like what is that thing that's up there and so when they analyze it, like you see, it has like what appears to be chambers and it also would appear to be the remnants of some sort of organic material, which would be wood, that was used to construction of this thing. That's it. There was something recent about it though. Um, see if you can find like news, go to news. This is what I saw. I saw this. And I don't, uh, I had just seen this video where someone's inside and they're claiming, uh, this has got to be a claim because I don't know the, how they got here and where this video came in. It's going in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's showing pieces of wood, or what looks, I mean, it's, uh, Noah art stands. We got, how much wood is left from 2000 years ago or more, I saw the piece on Instagram, I think where it was not the entire 45 minute video. There was some news of the analysis of that that I saw online. April 22nd. This is my bet. Researcher believes Noah's art found in Turkey after new underground scans. Yeah. So researchers working in Turkey say fresh scan data on this from April uncovered what appears to be tunnels inside the long debated land form bolstering their case. The site may be a man made object. They believe to be Noah's Ark. I do believe this is a real decayed buried remnants of Noah's Ark, the famous ship, and we're doing our best to convince the skeptics and show the world this site. The tricky thing is for carbon dating, you do need organic material. Oh, yeah. And not only that, it's like the tricky thing is like the whole story doesn't make sense. Take two of each animal, and then what happens? Animals eat other animals. So how does that work out? You've got it. You know, in the Bible, they're supposedly weighted. They waited until the animals gave birth to a bunch of different. Before they ate them. It's insane. Okay. What? What are you a kid? It's just like, I mean, it literally sounds like, you know, like a child wrote a story. It's very, very goofy. But then you get into the fact that there are like 400 or so flood myths across disparate cultures. Yes, yes, definitely. And then you also get into the idea that it's not maybe the whole world that flooded. It's this immediate area, and that this idea of he took two of each animal, maybe he just took enough animals so he could sustain agriculture afterwards. And these other animals did not go extinct. And then maybe the story over time becomes, he got fucking giraffes walk there from Africa. Like, where are you getting horses? You know, how are you getting eagles? Like, how are you getting everybody on this thing? It doesn't even make sense. And real discoveries are often motivated by myth, like motivated by. Homer and Herodotus stories about the Peloponnesian war you had this German businessman Heinrich von Schleimann spent all his money looking for Troy and found it which is wild. Another story would be you know Plato talking about this flood he's talking about it in the Atlantis context obviously it's a dialogue and it's I think the Tameas and Criteus dialogue and this is told that a mythos festival 600 BC and they say 9,000 years ago this great flood happened and then you line it up and if that's meltwater pulse 1b which is probably the flood that got us out of the ice age so to discount myth entirely as like non-historical I think it's throwing the baby out with the bath water. Right the timeline aligns with the great with the theory of the younger drier's impact theory. Exactly. The great flood and the younger drier's impact theory align with the timeline that Plato how the fucking Plato of known when he's saying 9,000 years like how how is it so perfectly aligned? That seems a little convenient. Yeah I think if there was a Noah's Ark it was probably well first of all how does he know it's coming how long does it take to make this boat you know that's where it gets really weird like does this guy actually have a premonition yeah is he actually like attuned to some sort of psychic energy or does God or for lack of a better term actually talks to this guy right and say hey dude so I'm shit is about to go down and didn't it take him I want to say the biblical account is it took him a hundred years to make it oh I don't even know I know that is back when they were like living for hundreds and hundreds of years. Yes, 177 years old was 182 when he had Noah. Normal. Normal stuff. David Sinclair help us let's get back there. Well this is this is the real thought is if David Sinclair is correct and I think he is if they can figure out a way to somehow know their access whatever part of the human genome allows us to age or causes a stage and reverse that or change that why do we not know that if you got a civilization that could build the pyramids how do we not know that these people were also capable of extending lifespan to 100% yeah and if knowledge gets lost and we're now figuring out Horvath clocks DNA methylation clocks biological age versus chronological age yeah I'm sure you talked to Brigham about all sorts of like novel crazy things he's looking into with stem cells you know and the amazing things they do like why was that not necessarily discovered before and just erased from the historical record easily could have could have if if there is a cataclysmic disaster and we do have a hyper-advanced civilization that's capable of engineering feats that we still can't replicate today which I think is the case because there's a lot of people say we could build the pyramids today fuck you okay fuck you no one has do go do it go do it shut your mouth the biblical account no one is family were in the ark for about a year often calculated as roughly 370 days wow they went that bow for a fucking year that's crazy bro that sucks do you think those guys are stuck in Iran have it bad Genesis dates their entry to the 17th day of the second month of Noah's 600th year and their exit on the 27th day of the second month of his 601st year it rained for 40 days and 40 nights how long did it take him to build the art says 120 years does not give a precise construction time the commonly repeated 120 years is a traditional interpretation of Genesis 6.3 rather than explicit statement that construction itself lasted 120 years hmm what's all you know you're getting into when you're getting into ages like that what's really weird is it's not just the Christian Bible or the Old Testament or that has these long extended lifespans that's where you get really weird because both the ancient Egyptians when you know the Zepthetti and then when you get into the ancient Sumerian Kings list like there when the you go the further back these motherfuckers were living thousands and thousands of years raining for thousands of years and then after the flood you start seeing ages aligned with modern human ages which is really weird really weird yeah it's like okay what and so the way archaeologists dismiss it they say oh that was just myth okay but but you're along with this myth particularly with the Sumerians you have actual historical kings that had actual historical reigns that are depicted in the same the same texts so like what's going on 100% and there I think natural selection is a real theory there are people who like deny it and I think it is a locally extremely useful legit theory but there's a great philosopher of science called Karl Popper and he had this whole thing of he called the materialist promissory notes where you have issues in evolution natural selection you have punctuated equilibria this sort of rapid speciation in the fossil record things that are very hard to explain and we just like to fill in the gaps and we don't know you know there was actually a really interesting German guy named I think Richard Goldschmidt and he had this idea of he was an evolutionary theorist and he had this idea of hopeful monsters and so you'd get these mating between interspecies so you know a mule would be a good example or like a tiger and a lot like a tiger and every once in a while like it would like hit this ecological niche and like you know actually makes sense for the local ecology and then it would sort of persist and I think he's largely been debunked but I spoke with this DARPA dude who was like I can say this because I we didn't end up pursuing it but you know the movie The Shape of Water the Guillermo del Torreta he was like at one point we were thinking about stuff like that like interspecies yeah yeah and I don't know if it was like humans and other species but it was like inspired by this guy Richard Goldschmidt well you know the Russians were considering making a hybrid between a human and a champion chimpanzee for war that's great I know Putin's talked about killer dolphins no this was a god was it World War two it was World War two right so it's World War two um who was it was it Stalin that's crazy do we know I don't know if we would know a fish I think the member of the guy was doing it on his own for sure would have been Stalin would have told you that I don't see see if you can find it so they were so the idea was like look Russia lost like 20 million men during World War two and I think the idea is like why wouldn't it be better if people didn't fucking die yeah why don't we develop warriors and so I think they were trying to make a human chimpanzee hybrid specifically designed for war that war right now like I don't know if it was official because he got in he got in trouble for uh seeking volet like um not telling the female volunteers what was going on oh Jesus yeah did you imagine why stay put honey I'm just gonna stick something up there and wonderful things will happen Jesus Christ notorious Soviet era attempt but no human ape hybrids wherever created but yes it was a real attempt Russian Soviet biology Illia even off proposed using artificial insemination to test whether humans and great apes could produce offspring in the mid 1920s okay so it was um after World War one uh Soviet support he traveled to French Guinea and inseminated several female chimpanzees with human sperm none became pregnant he later sought to reverse the experiment by inseminating women with ape sperm historical accounts indicate he considered doing so without consent in Guinea but colonial authorities blocked the plan back in Russia he sought female volunteers but the available adult male ape died before the procedure could occur so no such insemination procedure proceeded sounds like a great person yeah what great guy wonderful dude but it's like kind of crazy that that was I mean imagine if it worked and then they just created like a million of them and just armed them well also where we had it with crisper and the ability to you know right to do that right right also what the fuck is gonna stop them from turning around and taking over Russia like why would they listen to you right like yeah yeah you're giving them guns they're way more violent they're super territorial they're way stronger and also they're gonna recognize it you made them to go die and they're gonna be really resentful of these fucking pink little fleshy fucking water balloons of of meat and tissue that are so vulnerable compared to them it's like yeah it's like you created me it's like it's playing the apes it's playing the apes it's it's it's also the way people talk about AI it's like very analogous very much so you know very much so yeah it's uh we are always meddling we're always meddling and which makes me think something more advanced would probably metal with us that's right just do it a little bit more subtly and they would do it at the bound like it makes sense that UFOs to me would show up around nuclear sites because those are the Archimedes lever of destruction on are those are the points of most leverage the hinge points of civilizational collapse it is not a coincidence that Mario and Michael were abducted at Ellsworth Airport. and saw this thing hovering above a live hydrogen bomb. [laughter] That feels like it makes sense. Yeah. You know? And like if you were governing a system, you would look at those nodes. Right. You would look at, actually, there's a great neuroscientist named Don Hoffman, and he says if you're like, if you're a simulator and you're guarding the simulation, you look at the exit paths. So I think about two exit paths in our sort of simulation. One would be high energy physics. So particle accelerators, high voltage experimentation, and nuclear, like stuff where you're really pushing at the boundaries of space time. So I think that's why these things show up at national labs, nuclear sites, a lot of like really hardcore kind of experimentation, and then consciousness. I think that would be the other exit path. And so that's why I think these things show up when we're sort of communing with this higher thing. Right. And it also makes sense why they show up when you're sleeping. Right. Like if you're having these encounters, like all these abduction experiences, the great many of them happen at night. Right. Yeah, and it's an open question as to why is it evolutionarily adaptive for us to sleep? Right. It doesn't really make sense. It's terrible. It's terrible. And we're, we sleep deeper than like most animals and so we can be walked up on by predators in the middle. And there's so many nocturnal predators. Absolutely. So what stupid idea? Why wouldn't that get selected out? Maybe something important happens during sleep? Yeah, who knows? Yeah. But like it seems like, yeah, we don't understand any of that stuff. The dream and dreaming, sleeping. And it's probably adaptive in some way. We don't understand. Yeah. And like what is happening when we're sleeping? I told you about my crazy dream. The one crazy dream that's still to this day kind of. It's very foggy now because it's months, months after the fact. But the day of that dream, I was shook. That almost really shook. It almost feels like far to analyze that dream. It's like they were giving meat to these crocodiles in the water or something. So it was like, it was like our limbic sort of reptilian. Because in every man you have your sort of reptile self and then you have your like more aspirational self or something. And maybe they were sort of like holding that at bay. And they were, you said to me, you were like these beings, these like future human alien looking beings, we're telling you like this is a brittle experiment. Like this whole thing you've got set up, this could end tomorrow. Like we're here sort of protecting you. There was a very flimsy barrier between the crocodiles and whatever was in the water. And I was like, that's it? That's the only thing that's stopping. This is like a fucking like a traffic cone and some tape or something like that. Like some plastic bars. It was like, no, I don't remember specifically, but it was like, I remember being very uncomfortable with how little protection there was to stop those things from coming out of the water. So fascinating. But also the weirdness of them, like their bodies, they were like very slender and kind of tall, but like no muscle at all, like no strength at all in larger heads. Very odd looking, almost Asian looking, very weird. And they were playing with me a little bit. Like spooking me, haha. And it was very strange, but it was so vivid. That's the weird part. That's what's so trippy to me where I'm like, maybe it was an experience. It's hard to say. It's impossible to declaratively say it wasn't, right? It's hard to know what a dream is in the first place. Yeah. Like what is going on when you have vivid dreams in the first place? Totally. Yeah, what is that? It seems like you're working out problems. Like a lot of times people are working out issues and that's why they say sleep on it. I think there's something to that old wives, you know, the old wisdom of sleep on it. It's almost like you're, because it does feel like sometimes like issues that you have come up in sleep, but you're almost like metabolizing them. Or you're like, you're like working them out by experiencing them, but in like a padded wall sort of way in the dream, where like you don't want to work that out in 3D reality. And so it's sort of adaptive in that sense or something. Maybe. I don't know. But it's weird that I've had so many dreams that have been, you know, even crazy dreams like, wow, that was nuts. But nothing like kept me from going back to sleep. Yeah, that's what's so trippy about it is like you went and worked out right after. I could not sleep. I laid in bed for like an hour afterwards trying to go back to sleep. I'm like, I am not going back to sleep. Like whatever the fuck that was was way too real. Like way more real than any dream I'd had before. If I was an alien or a future human, I would definitely visit you. Whatever it is, I mean, whether or not it's my imagination just hit a burst of like serotonin and dopamine and neurochemicals and DMT or whatever it was that created this very vivid thing. It's either that in my super hyperactive imagination or an encounter. It's hard to know what it was. But what it was was very different than any other dream that I've ever had before. Yeah, well I think that's a beautiful, like that's all you can say. Yeah, but that's being honest. But it also is the problem with someone having a legitimate experience. Like how much do they elaborate? How much do they expand? How much do they try to justify their experience rather than saying I don't know what the fuck that was. Yeah, totally. I think in many cases the honest thing is I don't know what the beings were. I don't know where they were from. And it's so interesting that we snap to grid all of these experiences into this sort of alien motif. And it's why the Pentagon now uses non-human intelligence, which sounds kind of ridiculous, because it could be AI or an animal or something. But I wonder why they changed that. I think they changed it because they don't know definitively that it's extraterrestrial. And the office that I think in bad faith likes to debunk this stuff, the all-domain anomalies resolution office that just likes to pour court. It's the modern blue book basically. They often say we have no evidence of extraterrestrial visitation because they hinge it on that conclusion. That is a conclusion. There's a lot of anomalous data. There's stuff shown up at our nuclear sites everywhere. Donald Trump probably told Inner Circle aliens are living in Earth's oceans. I've heard he said that too. He also alluded to that. Remember the Jersey Drone Flapp, November of 2024? He kind of alluded to that. He goes, "We know they're coming from a garage. It's a weird place." It's a garage. We have no idea what they are, but they're in the ocean. This is according to Jack Osborne, who said that I think to Andy Stumpf. And he said that he has got a friend that talks to Trump frequently. So, I know Jack Soros, actually. And I don't think he's lying. This is also what multiple people have said that there's something in the ocean. I just had on the Navy's chief oceanographer who we just talked about. He was head of NOAA. He talks about tons and tons of sightings. I mean, the three sightings that were popularized, the videos that were popularized in the 2017 New York Times article, which is whether you like that article or not, they got some things wrong. Very responsible for a lot of the modern kind of disclosure movement. Very responsible for people all of a sudden taking it seriously. 100%. Yeah, it's slapped that credibility onto the whole issue. Those were Navy cases. Those were all Navy cases. The Nimitz sighting, Go Fast and Gimble were all Navy. And so, yeah, there's a long history. I mean, the blue-gill triple prime thing I mentioned with Harold Maumgren was Navy as well. You know, you have Tim Bershet saying there are five or six hot spots on ocean floors. And then you have Bob Lazar saying, you know, actually that was taken out of context. You know, people are saying the craft he worked on, the sports model was found in an archaeological dig. It was actually found on the sea floor. Yeah. And I think the office of Naval Intelligence knows a lot about this whole talk. In fact, Jay Stratton. Where was the information that it was found on the sea floor? That's what he says. And I think he might have said Barry, his like. We said one of them came from an archaeological dig. Yes. But it wasn't the sport model? I think. I thought it was. Oh, I don't know if it was this. Maybe it wasn't the sport model. It wasn't the sport model. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He said one of them I was told actually came from an archaeological dig and it's really old. It might have not been the sport model, but it was the other weird thing. But he said it was the sea floor. The labyrinth that he wrote it as described. There's a tic-tac. There's a 40 meter long tic-tac shape metallic object that's inside of some sort of an atrium. That's underground. Just a 40 meter long piece of metal that's thousands and thousands of years old. Like what are you talking about? It's so crazy. How the fuck do they have 40 meters of metal back then? What is that? It's so crazy. 40 meters is nuts. It's so nuts. 40 meters is almost a half a football field. That's huge. It's fucking massive metal. It's vertical. I do not know. Okay. I don't know, but it's shaped like a craft. The other crazy thing. That's just a fucking UFO under Egypt. You just gotta dig and go get it. It'd be so wild. Well, the crazy thing, I know you've had your, referring to a lot of Ben Van Kirkwijk's amazing work. He's been on his show a bunch. He, I think, went to Dandera and the hieroglyphics there, like translate to Stargate? Yes. That's crazy. He's like, what? And then I think Stargate, you know, takes place at the pyramid is literally a portal. And then if you combine that with the Christopher Dunn stuff or the Beyondy stuff where either it's a generator of electricity or there's this other guy, amazing guy, Jeffrey Drumm, who talks about it as a chemical manufacturing plant. Yeah, I've seen you. You know, like something was being done there. And maybe it had to do with some transcendent, you know. And then it obviously, you know, it's somewhat maps to Orion's belt as well. So maybe, I don't know, maybe. And then Orion's belt is the pathway that souls took in ancient times. - Oh. - Yeah. (laughing) It's, I never get tired of the subject. - It's so fun. - As long as there's new information that comes out, they got me hooked forever. It's like a stupid soap opera that I'll watch till I die. - Yeah, no, I feel the same. It's so like, and it's always like the cast of, there's so much drama to, and disclosure and stuff. And it's just, I don't know, I do think in our lifetime we're gonna make a lot of progress on it. - This is Herodotus's, I hope so. Herodotus's description, it had 12 roofed course, courts, kinda can't talk. Arranged in two rows, six facing north and six south, all enclosed by one outer wall, it contained 3,000 chambers, 1,500 above ground and 1,500 underground. Herodotus, say he toured the upper chambers himself, but Egyptian custodians refused to show the lower ones. They reportedly held the tombs of the original royal builders and of sacred crocodiles. - What? - That's so nuts. - That brings back to my stupid dream. - I was literally thinking that. - He emphasizes it's bewildering internal circulation, visitors pass from courts to chambers, to colonnades, and then to further rooms and courts. Its roof was stone, its walls bore carved figures, and each court was ringed by precisely fitted white stone columns. - And Pliny the Elder also had an account of this thing? Like this was. - Well it's, I mean also with ground penetrating radar, they know it exists. - They know it exists. - These chambers actually do exist, and that's the weird thing about whatever that metallic object is. They can, and they don't know what metal it is either. It doesn't resonate like aluminum or iron. They don't know what the fuck it is. - That's so wild. - The note, a crocodile. - The labyrinth surpasses even the pyramids. - Wow. - He says, "I saw this myself. "I found it greater than words can say." - That is so wild. That is so crazy. - Imagine saying something's greater than the pyramids and it's under the ground. - And you are the preeminent Greek historian. Like you're writing about all the craziest shit. - And you're writing about it from a firsthand perspective. - But it's not like he heard a story. - Yeah, you've seen it. - Yeah, this isn't like the home of writing. - I was watching Older Lex Friedman podcast in this linguist guy. I haven't heard this discussed yet, especially with all the times we talked about, "Go Backly Tepe, have you ever seen this thing?" - What is that? - The way he describes it is it's like proving that they had language then, because this is not cuniform. And the way he, I mean, it takes 30 minutes probably before they get to this and because he's breaking down what language is and how we got to it. And he gives a very crazy explanation of language I had not heard, which it's like writing down sound in the same way that like a record is recording sound. You're writing down sounds. And it's like, it took a while for everybody to agree upon what all those sounds were so that you're all reading the same thing. - So Irving Finkel, Scholar of Ancient Languages and Longtime Curator at the British Museum, were now in for his expertise in Mesopotamian history. And cuniform writing believes this artifact from "Go Backly Tepe" is evidence of the earliest form of writing dating back to around 11,600 years ago. - So you're saying like the way that the other stuff is reliefs, that this was like a stamped piece of clay that would have been, you know, some record of some sort saying something was done and this is like a verification of that. And this could have been some guy's last name. There's further breakdowns I've seen. Like maybe this snake is like the S sound and this could be some guy's name. Who knows what it really could mean. But this is going to, you know, 12,000 years ago and when they thought we were doing this for 3,000 or whatever. - Triffy. - Yeah, it's very weird. It's all very weird. They're just a history that we know of with the human race. I mean, just when you get to these old structures that we know people made, when did they make them and why? Like why, what is, go backly Tepi? What the fuck is that? - Yeah. - Like, do you think we see a shift in our understanding of humanity and our place in the cosmos in our lifetime? - Yeah, one funeral at a time. - Mm. - Yes, that's how science progresses. - Uh-huh. - Yeah. - Yeah. I think that's pretty accurate. - One gatekeeper. - Yeah, these old cocksuckers, they need to get out of the way. - I mean, I just think there's way too many of these people that have a vested interest in protecting a narrative that they've been teaching. They've been writing books about. They've been saying they are the experts. When you literally can't be, there's just not enough data. - What every period in history, like things get wholly overturned. So if you can't point to one thing that's kind of heretical today that you agree with, then you're definitely on the wrong side of history. - Yeah. - We're at the end of history, scientifically, historically, and then it always progresses. And usually there's a, that's when people are most saying we're at the end of history, you see a paradigm shift and everything just completely collapses and changes. This is like the structure of scientific revolution is written by a guy named Thomas Coon, who's actually, he was friends with John Mack and he encouraged him to investigate the alien abduction stuff at Harvard and he would say that there's a law of declining marginal returns in any scientific paradigm, where you're just rounding out the final margins on a theory and you're so sure of it, like electromagnetism in the late 19th century and then boom, you get total collapse because Max Planck figures out quanta, you get the quantum revolution and who's to say, who are you to say so smugly that that's not gonna happen now? Like of course it will. - Of course it will. - It's just what always has happened. - Yes. - And much like the UFO thing with when it comes to discussions about ancient history and the true history of the human race and what we really don't know. The people that are the most smug and are the most sure of themselves are most certainly the most wrong. - Yeah, 100%. - Yeah, 'cause I think the whole thing is weird. The UFO thing is weird and the ancient history thing is weird. There's just too many unanswered questions. And the answers that they have are really shitty. There's too many really shitty answers. - This is kind of a weird analogy, but in like stock picking, which is, you know, it's easy to get feedback on stock picking, like whether you're right or you're wrong, confidence can rise exponentially and accuracy rises very linearly and often plateaus. And so that's off, I think it's the case in learning anything where like you get more and more and more confident, you're so sure of yourself. And but your accuracy is only going like mildly up. - And it goes back to what we were talking about with like remote viewing and staying in flow state. - Yes. - It's like you gotta get out of your own way with everything. - Totally and sometimes, you know, a great example is Marconi who is responsible for inventing the radio by most account him and Tesla, right? He tried to send a signal across the Atlantic and he thought that electromagnetic waves curved. And so he was like, you know, I'm going to send the signal that's going to work. He was entirely wrong about electromagnetic waves curving. It just bounced off the ionosphere and then it landed across the Atlantic and the signal was received. And so he was right because he was wrong. And how many, you know, cases are like that where, you know, to Graham Hancock find the arc of the covenant, no, he had it, he had it in this general, Westerly direction of knowing that we have kind of amnesia as a civilization and he found something extremely special, you know, helped popularize the Gobekli tapping narrative and this whole younger driest period, you know, impact theory hypothesis. So you have, you know, the same thing with James Bruce with the arc of the covenant. You can shoot for the stars and land on the moon, you know, and that's okay. But if you're just like this nitpicker, like a knowing smug, you know, academic who's like arguing for the priestly citadel to be upheld, like what is your contribution to humanity? - Right. - I think what do you do it? - Yeah, and there's a lot of those. - There's so many, yeah. But I think even some of those people, and I'm not saying that all of the attributes I just mentioned apply to Neil deGrasse Tyson. But that's some of those, some of those people are now updating on UFOs. And it's wild because like you have a documentary, you know, the age of disclosure where all these high-ranking intel people are saying UFOs are real, repeatedly in front of a chalkboard, saying they are real. Take my word for it. And it's bludgeoning you basically to a point where you're like, okay, they're probably not like lying. I mean, you know, and then you end up with Neil deGrasse Tyson being like, look, okay, there's just an overwhelming amount of accounts now. Now, I'm, you know, I do think there's probably something here and we should look into it. And it's like, dude, you weren't doing science before. But is all it took a documentary? That doesn't make any sense. - No, it's criticism. Yeah. - He's responding to overwhelming criticism of his intellectual capacity for reason. - That's right, yeah. - 'Cause I think like when he was on the podcast with me, I got very upset with him when he was like, why would they be interested in us? And I told him, I go, that one drives me crazy. And I tried to explain why it drives me crazy. He kept interjecting and I'm like, okay. Yeah, just, just stop, just stop with that idea that we're not interesting. We're territorial, apes with nuclear weapons. who fucking send FaceTime videos to people on the other side of the planet. That's real weird. -We're apes with nicks. -Yeah, we're real weird. -We're real weird. -And if I was something that was an advanced civilization from somewhere else, hopefully that a civilization that has gotten past the concept of war and stealing resources and all that, and does have some sort of a hive mind, some sort of ability to communicate telepathically. -I would be absolutely fascinated by this thing. It seems to be in this transitionary sort of an adolescent stage of evolution and development. It's like not quite a primal animal anymore, but also not evolve past primal animal behavior. -100%. And the Chinese science fiction novel, The Three Body Problem, you might not show yourself overtly. In the dark forest teaming with life, it's actually dangerous to show yourself. So you subtly show up. You show up at these nodes, hinge points of possible cataclysm at nuclear. You show up to a specific person who might be a node of disclosure. But you would let it sort of seep and you'd condition the population. You wouldn't show up all at once. -And we are objectively being conditioned to accept this. If the fucking president is saying they live in the ocean, and Timber Shed is saying there's five hot spots in the oceans as well. And then we see it in The New York Times in 2017. Well, this is how disclosure takes place. -100%. -Nice and slow. Nice and slow to the point where it just becomes accepted. -Totally. -Yeah. And there's no clear ontological shock moment. -It's not. -Duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, the fucking devil's tower, UFO lands. It's not that. -No. -It's nice and slow. -It's what's happening now. -Yes. -It's happening. And that's because there are people that get really frustrated and I understand it because there's so much glorotic bureaucracy on the hill and you know, these whistleblowers need way more protections. I think we need targeted immunity for certain people who can say a lot more who are good faith actors coming out. They're probably a lot of people who didn't really bad shit that we don't want immunity for, you know? But like, ultimately, you know, I have these conversations and it's like it's so frustrating, it's taking so long, but it is moving. Like if you look at 10 years ago, vis-a-vis today, 2016 before that 2017 article, it said today, it's wild. -Totally different landscape. -Yeah, yeah. If you talked about it back then, you were a buffoon and now you're on the right side of history. -There you go. So, you, Joe, are the premier scientist because you are into all this stuff way back in this. -That guy was into it first. -Our bell. -Our bell. -The legend. -The OG inspiration. -Jesse, you're the fucking man. I appreciate you very much. It's always great to talk to you. It shows amazing American Alchemy, it's available on YouTube, and it's incredible. It's the best. -Love you, Joe. -Thank you. -I love you, too. Thank you for being here. All right. Bye, everybody.