Speaker 1Starting a business can seem like a daunting task, unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website, to marketing, to selling and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz and Allbirds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into... Sign up for your $1 per month trial at shopify.com slash special offer.
Speaker 2For the News and Observer, I'm Dawn Vaughn, Capital Bureau Chief and host of Under the Dome. Today's episode is sponsored by Duke Energy. I'm excited about our guest today. I'm joined by longtime politics and government reporter Gary Robertson. Gary previously worked for the Associated Press, covering every North Carolina General Assembly legislative session since 2001, until he left that job in late spring. Of course, he still pays attention to everything. He is immediate past president of the Capitol Press Corps. I don't remember who coined the phrase, but someone called you the unofficial mayor of the Press Corps.
Speaker 3I think it was our friend Jeff Tiberi over at WUNC when he was there. And don't forget, I actually worked for two and a half years with a fellow McClatchy paper, the Charlotte Observer. That was my first job out of school when I came down here from the state of Virginia.
Speaker 2All right, full circle. Gary, like myself and others in the Press Corps, like our Press Corps colleague Colin Campbell, a lot of us have spent time in Virginia, particularly Northern Virginia. Our D.C. correspondent, Daniel Battaglia, lived in Northern Virginia before she went back up as that. So something about D.C. politics and being exposed to that, you know, it's no big deal down here. Well, sure.
Speaker 3I think when you watch the TV at home, growing up in Northern Virginia and its national politics and even world politics, you get a sense of familiarity with it.
Speaker 2That's right. That's true. So, all right. Well, let's start with... What was the North Carolina legislature like? Well, in 2001, you started covering it, but you said the first time you came over to the legislative building was 1995?
Speaker 3It was 1995. So I joined the AP in 1993. And as it is still true today, AP reporters need to be a jack of all trades. They need to be a generalist. And so for a lot of my early career, I was working on the desk there, just pushing out copy for all of our newspaper, radio, and television members. But they needed some more people to cover the legislature. In 1995, some of your older listeners may know this, or historically adept people know that in 1995, the Republicans took over the state house after the 1994 elections for the first time in close to 100 years. And then the Senate was actually within one or two seats of flipping Republicans. So 1995 was... kind of a year where the legislature, the Republicans at the legislature kind of made it up as they went along. They had never, none of them had ever really been in charge. And so it was, it was a very interesting time to see what kind of Republican agenda would be pushed. I know that I'm not sure exactly in 1995, but issues like creating charter schools and expanding them was a big element of the 1990s. Also, as it related to, of course, tax cuts. And we, if we had a whole nother meeting, we could talk about how Jim Hunt kind of flipped the, kind of flipped the story on its upside down and, and decided that he wanted even deeper tax cuts than the Republicans. It was a very, it was quite a stroke of strategy. In 2001, this was a time where the Republican Democrats had small majorities particularly in the house, but there were a handful of Democrats who did not, like the, the way that at that time, Speaker Jim Black, who was the Speaker was pushing an agenda on taxes and they basically gummed up the works for the whole, for the whole summer. They did not pass a bill, a budget bill until that September.
Speaker 2So, wow. So a late budget fighting over taxes. Yeah.
Speaker 3Can you believe it?
Speaker 2So nothing changes in North Carolina politics except for maybe like the, you know, which party is pushing each thing.
Speaker 3And the names are different, but the issues are, are often the same.
Speaker 2So the nineties at 1994 election, that meant that president bill Clinton was in the white house and that would have been the midterms. That's right.
Speaker 3So there was a lot of pushback about the the healthcare plan that he was pushing. And there was just, you know, there was just general distrust at times of, of, of bill Clinton.
Speaker 2So did the legislative building look exactly like it does now,
Speaker 3except for maybe the smoke because everybody's still smoked. People could smoke in committee. They could smoke on the floor on the floor, on the floor. People, if you probably have seen the old class ashtrays that are around still,
Speaker 2no, I haven't. There are ashtrays in some bathrooms. I've noticed.
Speaker 3That's right. But no, it was as far as I can recall, we had the legislative office building, but it was relatively new. It was built in the eighties.
Speaker 2Wow. But the LOB is the fancy new building. Yeah,
Speaker 3that's right. And so it was, it was basically the same except for maybe now I would say that the, the house and particularly the Senate, the floor itself, the chamber was very different. It was the original to the 1963 building, which you know, was the architect was the same person who did the Kennedy center in Washington, who obviously is in the news right now up in Washington.
Speaker 2So, or the Senate had some sort of backdrop, I guess, where it was a bunch of circles or something like to call it.
Speaker 3It was like the wine bottles. You would, you would joke. If you had large wine bottles, you could put them in there. There were these circles that really reflected the early sixties, late fifties style. And some of your listeners may, if they go on YouTube, they can see an old time black and white movie about what would look like in the mid sixties.
Speaker 2So what was it like with starting when you covered, you know, all every session from 2001 on it was Democrats in control, but not as much control. It was,
Speaker 3they had thousands. Yeah.
Speaker 2So what was what were they known for? Really? What was it just having always been in power or was there, I mean, I don't know, was there any sort of sense of complacency, which might lead to why they lost the power?
Speaker 3I don't know if there was complacency, but there was certainly disparate factions within the Democrat party had just like there are in the Republicans, but you had a pretty hard left wing within the party. And you also had people who were more moderate, maybe business Democrats. And even at the time you would have some, I guess what we would still call yellow dog Democrats, people who worked in rural area who lived in rural areas. And if that, if their parents and their grandparents and their great grandparents hadn't been Democrats, they probably would have been Republicans, particularly on social issues. So really the Democrats were juggling lawmakers across the really the political spectrum and trying to figure out how to, how to go forward. So they would, you know, I think they would do measured leaning democratic ideas. And part of it was raising taxes. Part of it was doing some having more control over the education system than perhaps there was in the past. So that all came to a head in 2010 when the Republicans ended up taking over both chambers for the first time since combined for the first time since 1870.
Speaker 2So how did Republicans take over? This was part of, you know, just the way, they think swept with the national election where their state government factors, politics and player.
Speaker 3Well, I mean, there had been as we talked off camera earlier, there had been the the scandal involving House Speaker Jim Black that ultimately sent him to prison. I'm not sure those were two that was certainly in the background, but that was a couple of years past. A lot of it had to do with just it was a midterm election. President Obama was office. So there was a lot of backlash from conservatives and in the middle of the road. And Tom Tillis, who I believe at the time was the House. He was the House. He was a leader in the House minority. He took it upon himself to help raise money and just travel along and and just say, we're going to you know, we're going to get a majority here. And at the same time, the same thing happened in the Senate. And before you knew it, November 2010, they had flipped both chambers till this became the speaker and a Rockingham County Republican named Phil Berger, became the Senate president pro tem, succeeding the most one of the more powerful Senate pro tems we've ever had in Mark Basnight.
Speaker 2We have a photo in the News and Observer archives of Tillis and Berger. And of course, you know, Berger is on his way out this year. And I was looking for photos of of Berger and because I've only covered the legislature for eight years. And I thought, oh, that's right. Tillis and Berger work together because I've always thought of it being Berger and House Speaker Tim Moore. Sure. I want to talk about familiar names after the break. But before if you can kind of summarize people that maybe weren't around then or about Democratic House Speaker Jim Black and there is a scandal.
Speaker 3OK, I'll try to summarize it. But a lot of it had to do with his efforts to try to keep to remain speaker. And and then there was some discussion about whether or not he had given money to another Republican who's to a Republican named Michael Decker, who ultimately switched parties. And. led to the, because he switched parties that meant that Jim Black and another Republican named Richard Morgan actually shared the speakership in 2003. So I'm sorry, we're not getting into all that, but there were other things involving donations, and I can't remember exactly who they were. That also was part of the whole basically criminal and electoral mess that Jim Black ended up, it all ended up him leading to
Speaker 2serving time in federal prison. Probably the biggest scandal of any sort of recent history would you say? I mean, in North Carolina politics, the past. Yes, I would agree in terms of somebody so high up in office. I think prison as a result usually is probably that indicator. All right, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, I'm going to talk more with longtime politics reporter Gary Robertson about some of those names we just touched on, young Phil Berger, young Tong Tillis, and some other people that have been around a while that are still involved in North Carolina politics. We'll be right back. Thank you.
Speaker 4This message is sponsored by Duke Energy. Duke Energy is a North Carolina-based company dedicated to powering the state's continued growth and supporting economic development across communities. To learn more, go to agree.duke-energy.com. This message is sponsored
Speaker 2by Duke Energy. You're listening to Under the Dome, I'm Capitol Bureau Chief Dawn Vaughn here with Gary Robertson. Before the break, we started talking about some familiar names in North Carolina politics, and especially the ones that are powerful Republicans. You knew them when they were not powerful Republicans, which to me, because I've only known them in power since I've been covering the legislature, is just a really interesting perspective that maybe people don't realize. So let's start with Phil Berger in the news. And I remember you telling me once, one thing people need to understand if they aren't familiar with Gary Robertson's work is that Gary's work has really extended and benefited all of the press corps and informed all of our reporting. I remember when I started covering state government and a lot of things are confusing. There's no handbook. And Gary was the in-person handbook of like, what is this? Why? But I remember you telling me that Senator Berger would talk to when he was in the minority party and then just kind of continue that on. So tell us what Berger
Speaker 3not in power was like. I mean, he was a steady hand. I mean, he, I mean, he didn't go up there and from what I recall, or rate quite loudly. I mean, he was firm and certainly as, as minority leader, he tried to, as best you can, when you're in the, in the minority, find areas of, you know, of places where you can differ from the majority party. I know that there's been a lot of hay about how Senator Berger was an advocate for an independent redistricting commission for a while. Don't believe he is anymore, or at least it doesn't seem like it. And he's, you know, given the cards that he's dealt. So, I mean, he's a, he was intriguing guy and he, what I've noticed a lot is about the loyalty that his, his staff have, even after they have left, they really look up to him. And, and it's interesting just that he, it doesn't seem like he's burned a lot of bridges with his
Speaker 2staff. And then Senate rules chair, Bill Rabin, is he a long timer in the Senate or new? I always think of Berger and Rabin as this team that's been around for a while. No, I believe he came in,
Speaker 3in the 2010s. I don't believe he was part of the minority at the time because the rules chairman for a good bit that worked hand in hand with Berger in the 2010s was Tom Apodaca. Okay. And he's a force of nature, just like his predecessor, Tony Rand, the former Democrat. And these are names that are still around. Excuse me. Senator Rand is no longer with us, though.
Speaker 2Okay. So tell us about outgoing U.S. Senator, Tom Tillis, before and as he became Republican House Speaker at the legislature, was Tillis always the same? Tillis is quite the character now. Was he always a character?
Speaker 3I mean, he was, he really embraced his, his role and his vocation as a consultant and somebody who would crunch the numbers. And it seemed like even when he was in the minority, he would talk about crunching numbers and finding, you know, using consultant speak in a lot of ways. And we've all thought that was kind of humorous at times. And, but I think it was just, he's a very calculating person, not in a negative way, but he really analyzes things very deeply. And, you know, when he became speaker, I would just, I think he was always considered a moderate, but he knew where his bread was buttered. He knew that there were certain, certain bills he had to get through because his majority wanted it. And a lot of them had to do with cultural issues, obviously tax issues. And then finally education vouchers.
Speaker 2Okay. And then Tim Moore was the Republican House Speaker, longest serving, I believe. Yes. What was Moore like before he came into power? Was he on your, on your radar really, I guess, like when he was?
Speaker 3He surprised people because in, in 2002, he upset an incumbent Democrat that helped lead to basically the, the 60, 60 split the even split that there was at the legislature. So he kind of moved up and it's clearly when Tillis became speaker, he became Tillis's rules chair. So that, that became a place where he really flourished. He was very good with knowing the rules, which every rules chairman has to be, but you cannot survive unless you know those different rules that allow you to bypass the minority's opposition.
Speaker 2Okay. And then, and of course you covered how current Republican House Speaker, Dustin Hall, you know, his tenure so far.
Speaker 3Not very long. Yeah.
Speaker 2How would, I guess, I don't know, how would you compare Tillis, Moore and Hall? Just very different personalities, I would say. Moore and Hall are very different personalities and Hall of course was Moore's rules chair.
Speaker 3Again, I think, I think that Dustin Hall is measured and he, I think it's been interesting, especially in that first year, the use of his office of social media, I think was a surprise. And it just reflects the fact that he's in his late thirties and has almost lived with social media, maybe, or at least since college. Yeah. Probably. But he seems to, he seems to not be afraid to take issue with the Senate. I mean, it would be easy for him for a lesser person, maybe to cower to Senator Berger because Senator Berger is who he is and he's been the Senate leader for so long. But it seems like to me, I don't know what the analyst analysis is by someone else, but I mean, it seems like the budget that they came up with really satisfied them, really satisfied the House.
Speaker 2Did you have any FOMO? FOMO about not getting to cover the final budget?
Speaker 3That was the funny part is I thought there would be, but I had other fish to fry at the time and it was, it was just nice maybe not to be so invested in it.
Speaker 2Okay. Some other big names I want to run through that are still and, you know, powerful names in North Carolina politics. Rory Cooper, what was now former governor, US Senate candidate Rory Cooper like in the legislature?
Speaker 3Well, he was the majority leader, uh, before he became attorney general. I, I still had, I had, when I left my AP office, I still had a clip from a local newspaper that I had written a story on, or maybe it was my colleague, but it had a picture of Roy Cooper pushing for the veto because you remember North Carolina is the last day in the union to give its governor veto power. Uh, I think some people, uh, have buyer's remorse about the veto in terms of how narrow it is and how weak, uh, the governor is with it. But, um, I think everybody knew that he was, that he probably was going to be moving on to bigger and better things, or at least trying to, and he's really kind of set himself up even since his days at UNC involved in the college Democrats there. So, um, it's not surprising that he's on the ballot 40 years later.
Speaker 2Okay. Uh, well, let's talk about Dan Blue too. Um, long time Raleigh, um, Senate Democrat has been, he was the first black house speaker. Um, he's now, he doesn't lead the Senate Democratic caucus, that Senator Sidney Batch, uh, but he is still in the Senate. Tell us about Blue over the years.
Speaker 3Well, I mean, he, again, a little bit before my time, but at the tail end of, of his two terms as house speaker, uh, he was first elected in 1991, um, ultimately stayed in the house in 2001. Your listeners earlier heard that there was this fight where there were about eight Democrats, seven or eight Democrats that wouldn't go along with the majority led by Jim Black. Dan Blue was within those eight. And so he has always found a time, um, to be useful and a time to be visible, uh, that next year people don't know or remember that he ran for the US Senate in 2002 and lost in the primary. Uh, and then he, he re he refreshed himself and, and ultimately showed up in the Senate and, you know, obviously has been in a leadership position longer than he has ever been. Um, so, uh, I think that's, I think that's, I think, than he was as House Speaker. So resilience and just knowing to know, He knows which way the wind's blowing.
Speaker 2Is that kind of what has been what's kept? Two other people I want to mention that you've covered for decades, Democratic Representative Becky Carney, Republican Representative Julia Howard. Josh Stein was also spent time in the legislature. What's really, although Stein's career now is short compared to some of the other folks we've been talking about, of course, he's a little younger. What's one thing that they all have in common that's kind of a nonpartisan? Is it the resilience you were talking about? Being able to know what battles to pick and whatnot?
Speaker 3I don't know if I can put Stein in between with Carney and Howard, but with Carney and Howard, I think they've probably been in some relatively safe districts and that they are respected by people on both sides of the aisle. And so when redistricting comes, not saying it hasn't tried to happen in the past, but I think they're less inclined to be the subject of battle. And so I think that's one of the things that they're more inclined to be the subject of battle. Now, Julia Howard had a problem with that earlier this decade. I won't go into that, but I think some of it is just there's just a lot of respect for them and they know they have a lot of institutional knowledge.
Speaker 2OK, we are almost out of time. This conversation has been great. We could talk for this is just a taste of what you get of like when journalists talk to each other about things in the press room and come on down to the press room. It's always it's always a fun conversation. Quickly, I want to. Because I asked any lawmaker or people that work in the legislative building, what's your go to pick for what you like from the legislative cafeteria or snack bar, L.O.B. snack bar?
Speaker 3Well, I really like the lemon chicken soup. And you've probably mentioned that many times. And I think I told you.
Speaker 2Yes, Gary is the reason why I have become like the lobbyist for lemon chicken soup.
Speaker 3And then I really like the banana pudding down there. It's just it's made like grandma used to make. I think it's really good on a Friday afternoon. And then I also. Over in the snack bar, I really when times are tough at the legislature and we're spending a lot of late night hours, I'm very tempted to get the the chicken tenders platter with the French fries. I know it just probably goes into my stomach like a brick, but it's great.
Speaker 2Everything when you've been working a long day, whatever they have at the legislative building tastes good. Right. All right. We're about out of time. Let's quickly get to our picks for headliner of the week on a total nonpolitical. Well, there's politics involved, but it's about sports. And both our headliners are sports related. Gary, I'll start with you.
Speaker 3Well, I think that Bill Belichick was what came to my mind. As we know, he had a bad year last year. It seemed like anything that could go wrong did. And even leading up to the opening game in Dublin, there was just a lot of a lot of talk around what was happening and some of his staff not being there for different reasons. And wouldn't you know it? They go and win. And now people are saying, oh, maybe he might have it. Decent season, but certainly something that was a little bit a little bit surprising on the other side of the Atlantic on Saturday.
Speaker 2Well, you know, we're only I don't know why they call it week zero. Just call it week one. You know, but anyway, it's still it's still early. And there's hope, which I have because NC State, where my kid now goes, suffered a loss to UVA, which is also my sworn enemy since I am a Virginia Tech Hokie. So I suppose that's my headliner. But, you know. So hope springs eternal. And I'm looking ahead to football this coming weekend where Virginia Tech plays VMI, which stands for Virginia Military Institute. My dad is a 1966 grad of VMI. I remember he passed away a couple of years ago. Him telling me how it used to be where VMI and then VPI would, you know, they'd march through and play at Victory Stadium in Roanoke. Now it's VMI is coming down to Blacksburg from Lexington. But that's going to be a fun game to watch. And and go Hokies. And then one plug for your alma mater, William and Mary. Are they how they do this?
Speaker 3Oh, they rallied from, I believe, 12 or 10 points down to beat Villanova on Friday night. So we're looking like a pretty good year. Granted, we're in FCS, not an FBS, but we're going to have a good year. I can just feel it.
Speaker 2All right. So that's your sports and politics analysis.
Speaker 3Where's the weather?
Speaker 2There we go. It's going to be hot this week.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 2For the News and Observer. I'm Dawn Vaughn with Gary Robertson and producer Kevin Keister. Thank you for listening to today's episode of Under the Dome, sponsored by Duke Energy. And we'll talk to you next time.
Speaker 5For more from our politics team, subscribe to the News and Observer at NewsObserver.com slash subscribe. Follow us on Twitter at Under the Dome and NC Insider and sign up for our weekly political newsletter, also called Under the Dome at NewsObserver.com slash. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 6Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile with your summer price forecast. Now, unfortunately, we're seeing rising costs across the country with possibility that big wireless hates you 100%. Now, over here at Mint Mobile, we're seeing sunny skies and dropping prices. Every plan to just $15 a month. Give it a try at MintMobile.com slash switch.
Speaker 1Upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for a 12-month plan required, $15 per month equivalent, taxes and fees extra, new customer offer for initial The plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. See terms.
PodcastTranscript AI