#25 People First: Blain Shepherd on Culture, Tech and Transparency at Thomas Franks

Welcome to Food Service Matters, where we bring you cutting-edge conversations with industry leaders in the food service sector. I am your host Patrick McDermott, the CEO of Digitali, and in each episode my guest and I will delve into the key challenges and opportunities facing the food service industry, highlighting the latest trends and creating a dynamic space for discussions about the future of the sector. Join us as we explore the world of food service and discover the latest innovations and best practices that are shaping our sector. Welcome to Food Service Matters, season three, episode seven. I'm your host Patrick McDermott. Today I'm joined by Blaine Sheppard, UK managing director at Thomas Franks. One of the UK's most respected independent getters. Blaine has been with Thomas Franks for over a decade. The only company he's ever worked for and he brings a deep understanding of people, purpose and performance. In this episode we unpack how project unity is delivering financial transparency and strengthening client trust. Why investing in entry-level talent and school levers is key to the future of food service. How personal development plans are helping chefs grow and not just professionally but personally. Why tech only matters if it saves time, simplifies workflows and improves customer experience and how to create a culture that gives chefs freedom to be creative and evolve. Blaine brings honesty, clarity and a commitment to nurturing the next generation. Let's dive in. So today on Food Service Matters, I'm joined by Blaine Sheppard, UK managing director of Thomas Franks. Blaine, you're very welcome. Thank you for having me Patrick, great to be here. It's a pleasure. Tell me I'm very interested to hear about you and your journey. I hope you don't mind me saying so but you're not your typical managing director because you're about 15 years younger than before. Most people actually make that journey. So tell me about your journey today. So yeah, left school Patrick, kind of not known what to do. I went college for a couple of years, did public services. I was really interested in actually joining the Air Force. That was kind of an appeal to me but I kind of wanted to go in at the Armed Forces end. So police armed forces was kind of my goal. And then I got a part-time job, catering, knit where I live in Coventry or lived at the time. And it kind of all set off from there. I was introduced at the Pozo Head Office as a hospitality assistant. And Thomas Franks, I think within about three months, it was kind of going through a tender took over the contract. And yeah, my journey with Thomas Franks started from that moment on. Really met with Frank. And yeah, conversation just evolved from there. He asked me where I wanted to go. Where was my direction? And at that point I'd been in a couple of months. I'd been in the role, a couple of months with a previous caterer. And Ops Manager. That was kind of what I said to him. I said I'd love to be an operations manager. It looks like a fun job. The operations manager that I'd met was a great guy. Super interesting. So yeah, that's kind of where it all went for me. Frank told me at the time, before you become an Ops Manager, you need to learn how to cook. You know, I mean, we're a foodie business with chef lead. So that's what I went on to do. So the next three years, I kind of went on a bit with journey to get my MBQs two and three. But as you know, in this industry, you learn so much at the at the call face, so to speak. So I was in and out of kitchens. I was very lucky, got to work some incredible chefs. And then after a couple of years, well, three years of doing that, I found my way into management, took kind of role as assistant manager in one of our Oxford locations. After about six months, become general manager. And then kind of my journey into management just really evolved from now. It was something that super appealed to me to have the freedom and control of a location on kind of what food we served, how we developed talent, how we evolved the offer. That was just incredible and give me so much kind of aspiration to push on. So from there, I took over, went over into one of our at the time, biggest locations, Ship Lake College. So I've become GM there. I think I was 20, 25 at the time. And then yeah, again, like I said, pushed on, come on operations manager at 28. And once I kind of reached that goal, and I really wanted to become a really good operator, me and Frank started talking and I really wanted to understand other key elements of the business that made it tick. So the elements that you, you maybe don't see as much at head office that actually keep the business stable. So the financial side, obviously the sales side marketing. So I got heavily involved with those departments. After my operational stint, for say stint, three years, I then went on to look after the sales. And obviously we've evolved as a business since then this was, so this was all just pre-COVID actually when I went into sales. So in a really tough time in the market, but I was kind of really proud and pleased that I brought in some new business. And I mean, the business at that point was in a really good place. And then I just evolved from there really. And then it took me to my current role, which again, I met up with Frank, it felt right to take the business forward. So initially, I took the the role as a regional managing director looking after the north of Thomas Frank's. And then a year later, I took on the full role of the whole of the UK. And I'm now almost four years into that, to that role. So yeah, it's been, it's been an incredible journey so far with Thomas Frank's alone as a business, never mind in the industry. But yeah, I've been, I guess some call it lucky, don't they? I think I've been, I've been well looked after along the way. But equally, I've pushed put in the hard work. And hopefully ultimately help a company grow in the right way. I'm sure down through those years that you've seen many changes as well. I was half expecting when Frank asked you originally, what, where do you want to go and what's your ideal job that you're going to see? I want your job, Frank. And so that's what I was expecting nearly. But not yet, not yet. Well, funnily enough, Patrick, it's kind of when I reached the operations manager role, I knew I had more to give. I knew my aspirations but bigger than that. And that's probably, in all fairness, that's when those conversations probably started. And I said to Frank, actually, no, I, if I if I understand the mechanics of this business and how it works inside out, then I think I'd be ready to take on that role. So that's what I did, like I said, for the next two or three years, I did sales marketing and so on. And that gave me a real grounding to go into an MD role because I understood every role from the hospitality assistant all the way up to the additional resources that we have across our business. It was really important for me to understand those before I went into a managing director role. And so during that time, you've obviously progressed and done very well. What are the things about yourself that's most surprised you? Well, that you weren't expecting to see because it sounds like it's a very exciting journey that you've been on to go from the very entry level to the very top level. It's an extraordinary journey. But I know one thing, I can't really learn things along the way. If you you're looking back in and know because we can see everything once it in the past when we're at knowing the future, what surprised you? Naturally, Patrick, I wouldn't say anything really surprised me along the way. Obviously, when when I first kind of evolved into that role as a business, we we we were probably operating in 50, 50, 60 partnerships. Obviously, that's evolved massively. So I think the biggest the biggest lesson that you learn along the way is how to manage that growth. And like I say, I think I've always been super fortunate in Thomas Frank's is that I've been allowed to evolve a team. Something that was super key, I believe, to our study growth was that we invested in advance of growing new business. So we invested in the operational teams, the culinary teams, the head office teams to make sure that that resource was ready to take on the new business, not the other way around. And I think that's what can sometimes happen is if it's done the other way around, you're then chasing your tail on trying to, I guess fill the gaps for business that you've already started in. So it's probably say the biggest challenge for me was bringing making sure we had the right talent and how I'd always been turned or taught along the way was if we have talent within the business that can evolve and grow and learn and be nurtured like I was then that's the best way to evolve a business and that's what I believe we've done so well in Thomas Frank's is across every region from RD regional director down we have that investment within our people every single regional director in Thomas Frank's for example has been promoted from within so all seven of them have been promoted from within and that's just incredible and then the same with operations managers culinary leads heads of culinary development chefs so recognizing the best talent to also then inject into your business as you grow that can bring new innovation and new ideas I think is also equally as key especially when you get to I guess the size now Thomas Frank's is is that's equally as important so what size is it at now when it comes to either contracts or people or footprint because you're not just in the UK and Scotland well yeah we so in the UK it's over the hundred million pound turnover so we've grown quite no slip nicely over the last couple of years and we're going strongly into the back end of this year which is which is super positive but yeah you point out in addition to that we've had we've had substantial growth in Scotland which is always being close to to our heart and Frank's heart that's where he was born and brought up and and then additionally the international business so fortunately or unfortunately whichever you look at it I don't I don't run too much of that John Grima who's our international managing director operates that but he's done a an incredible job in in evolving that business from one location that had come off the back of feedback in the UK so speak a reference in the UK he has grown that business now to to be in 13 different countries 40 plus contracts and so on and so forth so so no that's an incredible amount of our business but it also is a great USP for our for our people joining our business and our people that are in our business because they then get the opportunity to go and mobilize new business wherever that may be in the world and yeah it goes as far as places like the Bahamas Canada and obviously a fair few European countries as well so yeah that's an incredible it's an incredible growth side of Thomas Frank's that isn't naturally seen but it it happens and I'd say the team that are based internationally do a great job of that very good and one thing that is that to bring it back to the part on the team but before I do last time I you said that John looks after love the international growth last time I met with you you were you were sporting a mild tan after coming back from Bahamas so I don't think it's all the work with you no blame so so you do get the ad trip you do get the ad trip from time to time and yeah I was fortunate to to support John with with one of these mobilizations this summer I'm I'm in the UK we've got quite a bit on coming into August September that that as always requires the the utmost attention and and yeah I think John has John has managed to build an incredible team in in Europe now and and internationally that will help him drive that forward so now you're right I was lucky enough to to support one of those and I'm sure we'll support more on the ground in the future but yeah I was in the kitchen I was chopping carrots and so on dude what needs to be done yeah I love the approach that what you described to me a few moments ago with your team and with people it's been proactive rather than reactive as in to have the people there that's ready to go internally identified recognized nurtured and then you grow them but you're also showing them opportunity on a road map for the future tell me more about how well that's coming come about because it takes a lot of work to put those structures in place what can you share with me around there yeah well it's an incredible lot of work and we rely heavily on on our on our internal team so first and foremost we have an incredible learning and development department that heads up our new talent so that is super key there's super key that at every level people have the chance to evolve so if their managers want to to compete managers or ops managers it's important that they there is a program or training a lot of that manual training as well which is obviously super key for that role that they get the opportunity to do but all the way through all the way through from from your kitchen porcers it's important that they feel valued and they may they may want to continue to be a kitchen porter and that's absolutely fine but they may also want to learn how to cook and that is absolutely fine so we we provide that training and evolution at all levels last couple of years we've introduced mentors so people of all levels at mental at lead mentorships and again develop future talent people join Thomas Frank's I believe because they see scope for future development they have recognised that with colleagues obviously catering is a fairly small world we all cross over quite a bit so I think people recognise that in Thomas Frank's that there's a area for them to develop and grow but also internally people recognise that if they if they if they want something they can absolutely have it they've just got to put in the hard work to get them what they need to be but that could have only happened if we would have invested within the the head office support like saying in learning and development but also within the regional teams because our operators in Thomas Frank's only have a maximum of 10 locations most of them sit on around eight and the same with the the culinary team we match that which is again incredibly important to us but what that then gives is time so that gives time for people not only to focus on Thomas Frank's delivering the day to day and on the promises it also gives them time to focus on their own self-development which is equally as important because we can't provide any of the great food and service without great people who love doing what they do and so with the people and to bring them on that journey when people come into Thomas Frank's for the first time and you try and tell them or they might have been attracted because they heard through someone else what's the reaction from people when they see that you can actually bring them on a journey it's not just a matter of a job if they want my start time finished and that's okay they can have that but it sounds a lot more exciting and a lot more deliberate that you can show them a road map of progression should they choose to get on that road I think the key thing to always recognise that no matter who you bring into your business or whatever level is that there's no one development plan that fits all the never is there never will be no matter if it's the same position if it's a catering assistant catering assistants are different at every single contract or partnership that we are in so what do I look for when I meet new people who potentially want to join our business I look for people who want freedom freedom to share their thoughts ideas they might be really good at making bread brilliant bring it to the table creative thinking people who can align with obviously our culture we're a fun business we're transparent we absolutely hold the highest level of quality and delivery on food and service so that to me are the key things that have to come out in an interview with anyone who joins our business but I'd feel that they they generally when when people join as they they feel I guess just a breath of fresh it's a breath of fresh air to know that although Thomas Frank's is a sizeable business we've retained a lot of our culture almost all of our culture and goals that existed way back when 21 years ago when people join our business they are instantly greeted by regional teams which is super important to us and so we've regionalised our business to ensure that we stay I guess family minded independently minded that's that's always going to be a challenge for any business as you grow, but like us. said before, we've invested within that to make sure that we can continue to have regional directors looking after 34 contracts with operations managers looking after 8 to 10 and so on and so forth and the resources around that nutritional teams, that is all regionalised as our business. So no matter what part of the country you're in, you feel part of us closer near team and I think people feel that when they join our business, they get to meet everyone, they get to spend time out on the business, there isn't an expectation on week two that you pick up your contracts and you run, there is a great investment in the induction of that person to give them time to get their feet into the table to understand the business, to understand its quirks and the unique elements of it before they then go off and obviously have the freedom to evolve and be the leader that obviously they've been employed to be. So they can put a local stamp on their contracts and it seems like they're being encouraged to be more a little more innovative when it comes to getting the local print or their local stamp on the business. Absolutely, because again no one independent school or head office is the same, not one, it should be bespoke, we don't have set menus, it's incredibly important that we give our chefs autonomy to create but if they do get stuck, there is the resources around them to then evolve that menu or evolve that offer. Our nutritionists are involved in every single set of menus that go out across our business, again that is super key because chef has that creative flair to design and create a menu to then add the value of a nutritionist to oversee that and evolve that dish to be something maybe slightly more nutritious is also super key because we know in the current climate and in the current market is that is what's being monitored by most consumers. Yeah, he's one thing that I'm and I know you'll understand this from your chef and background especially now with your new role but you have the experience of both when you have chefs they want to be creative don't you make in food and when it comes technology it's about keeping them away from a computer to a degree but because of the focus now on allergens and nutrition and the management of some of the dishes that they then have to produce is it in some way putting them back a little bit in front of a computer to be able to then manage that and then to do it. I'm always interested in the admin of a chef because they just want to cook let's face it and they want to have that creativeness. Where do you get the balance between here's a structure here's the Thomas Frank's wave versus you have to do your admin. I think it goes back to my my earlier point Patrick on time chefs like anyone like operators need time to be able to not only write a menu but it needs to be costed it needs to be presented whether that's in their mind before they do it or whether they they do some trial runs chefs have that freedom to be able to do that they have time to be able to do that they're always there are always tough times in the calendar we know that and it's busier than the busier than usual but most parts chefs within our business will have that time to not only create menus but evolve menus cost menus and the law now to protect the consumer are as important so we need to make it as easy as possible by putting in the best type of technology to manage that data on what's in that food so we can very easily represent that to the consumer in all levels not only not only in being our head offices but in in in independent schools as well so so yeah we've over the past couple of years obviously since those laws have come in have put a lot of investment in when we when we'll ever talk about tech the most important elements of tech initially for Thomas Frank's were that of protecting the food going out so we put heavy investment into those those elements to make chefs life chefs lives easier which then puts us ahead of the curve when it comes to potential further legislation coming in into the future and with the tech because you're a multi territory business now do you find that the tech is able to flex along with you or are there any how should we say shortcomings or if you had a magic wand for example just to bring it on to different what would you like tech to be able to do so really good question because I think I think technologies brought up in every conversation or most conversations we have now whether it's presentations or whether it's just day-to-day and I think how we use tech in the best way still remains to be seen in most cases I think tech technology is super important when it comes to things like the menu generating the menus and generating the ingredients that go into those menus and then what comes out the other end on calorie count carbs fats and obviously allergens I think we need to make sure as an industry that we are all using tech first and foremost to protect the people who are consuming the food I think then the exciting bits of tech like whether it's menu protect projection whether it's frictionless tails they're the exciting bits of tech that you know I mean we've tried across our business we use across our business and we're looking to evolve across our business as well so but I think that those elements of tech are ever evolving and will continue to be interesting and we look forward to the times when we get to showcase those different those different bits to our clients but I think that will continue to evolve year-and-year-old and with the tech and things that you're asked about by the clients you're I would assume that ESG and sustainability is high in the agenda also absolutely the key message always on tech for me is that it needs to save time it absolutely have to save time we appreciate that in the modern in the modern day now that data drives a lot of decision-making so we absolutely get that but it has to save time it has to save people's time to utilize people in a better way and that's why I think the fun tech will be most important at the front face in element of it that's what I think that will do when it comes down to things like ESG we've got an incredible in-house team that lead our ESG and again they're constantly looking at ways to to evolve that to make easier for chef managers or location managers to input that data to make sure that we're recognising and we're we're monitoring our food wastage and all those great things because without that technology in we've gone away from the days of filling out an excel sheet right we've moved on from that this this data needs to be accessible quickly and and that's what we're working towards at the moment is ensuring that that's rolled out in good time across our business so that we have that data and then I'm sure we will look to evolve our ESG journey at location level but again you need that data to be able to to really do that and obviously new new business coming in already starts on that footprint right they already start with ESG in mind and how we obviously already presented that we are going to go and to reduce that that wastage or whatever it may be it's probably your your your your older business that you need to also take on that journey and so with the ESG again and sustainability it's it used to be slightly outside the top five when it comes to getting new contracts is it still do you find it's much higher what's the reaction of your clients when it comes to their attitude towards that yeah it's good question I think I think ESG is probably top three now again it all depends on on what business you're you're you're going for but it's definitely definitely at the top of the conversation alongside finance food people I think ESG is absolutely in that mix now and because it's it's incredibly important for businesses to ensure that they're running in the right way they're operating in the right right way and your catering partner is a big part of that because of the food generated and so on and so forth so yeah it's important that we understand our clients ESG goals and we align with those and equally vice versa, it's important that as a business we're pushing on for obviously different accolades within that sector and we'll continue to do that but I think I think obviously a lot of our clients are already on that journey which makes the process that bit easier. And tell us, with the sustainability, I hosted a round table some time ago and one of the common conversations or the topics that come up around sustainability is that yes, everyone wants to be sustainable but there's also higher cost in that. Do you have anything you can show me around the cost of sustainability, trying to balance between being a sustainable organization responsibly sourcing versus balancing up the finances of it because in some cases, sometimes a lot of cases it costs more to be sustainable. There is an expectation there that that has to be delivered to a customer to try and get all that balance right. You're absolutely right. I think there is no doubt that to be more sustainable, it costs more money. That is absolutely clear, I think. What I would say is that if you educate the people you work with and not only your teams but also obviously you work with your clients, you work with your customers, actually whether they are paying a little bit more money for sustainable packaging or whether they are not taking as much if it's an open-south serve area because they're mindful of the impact of that where that food waste goes. I think that goes a long way. That goes a long way. I think people naturally now you see it out in the public. People will take reusable cups to get their coffee. They will check packaging to ensure that it's buy degradable or obviously is recyclable which is obviously super important. So I think it's high on everyone's agenda. It's not just as caterous. I think everyone's on that journey. I think everyone is prepared to pay a little bit more. It's like anything. Really, I think it's you go with chicken, you go with organic chicken, you know there's a price difference but you appreciate the quality that comes with that. And with the, because there's the communication piece is really crucial between getting a customer's or a client's expectations and they are once and then you matching that because there's no point in you saying you give sustainable packaging they say well we don't want to pay for it. So it is hard to say no as well but it's about getting that balance. So I think the best businesses like what you've described there is about getting that communication piece right. So as there is a clear match between what the client wants and what you can then deliver on. Yeah, it's mixing. I absolutely make sense. It's that messaging from day one. It's that messaging that's in that tender document. It's that messaging that's in that first presentation to that client. Once they have bought into our offer and what comes with that and the sustainable side that comes with it also, they expect that and rightly so. So we need to ensure that it's not false promises. It's deliverable from day one and then we take them on an ESG journey. If they're not already on one again like I say most cases people have already woken up to that and have recognized it and are on their ESG journey. Some that maybe not again we offer that support internally. There's no additional charge for that but they can use our internal ESG team to do pool checks and then from there we will create an ESG journey for that for that location as well and that partnership and that's something that is again super key that clients again enjoy that journey because it might be something that they've not had time to put focus on or invest in. Again, we talk about cost. That's super important but they have that resource with Thomas Franks. Very good. One thing that struck me in the past and I run it by yourself. My second ever podcast a host of a number of years ago was with Frank. One thing that was very clear with him was his passion for charity and community. What's been happening in the last three years? Let's say since COVID around that because he gave me a good understanding up until COVID and the amazing work that you were doing at times of adversity. What's been happening in the last number of years because charity community, I know it's something that's at the heart of Thomas Franks. It absolutely is. I think you're right up until COVID, charity played a purpose in Thomas Franks but post-COVID, it became more of a legacy, I'd say, for Thomas Franks. We started off, obviously there was a point in time where generally furlough come into play and we didn't do that. The senior team stayed on and we remember the call, Frank got us all together and said, right, I think it was the Tuesday lockdown was announced and furlough etc. In the first day we were on a call with Frank talking about how we were going to stay active within the business and do charity and that just woke us all up and went, I mean there's a way forward and that was it. We evolved from there, we started on an initial sort of called feeding communities and as it seems we literally went out and started feeding communities, those who were struggling financially to eat so that was whether I'd be homes or whether people on the streets, we started that off and that then very quickly evolved not only to one region, two regions, three regions and within about four months we were feeding across the whole country out of hops, we call them hops, but schools head offices that had obviously closed or kind of downed tools for that period of time, they clients because of the relationships we had allowed us to reopen those kitchens to do charity feed and that was just just something that yeah we'll stay with me forever and the people involved in that and like I say it started very small and then it just continued and yeah time passed by and everywhere started to reopen a bit more but at that point clients didn't want to stop using their kitchens to feed their communities, they were more than happy for that to continue so it did and like I say this evolved into something incredible where we continued to do that and obviously different projects come out of that obviously when the school children returned they got involved in in preparing those meals and packaging those meals and distributing those meals a lot of our clients now come out with us so Raj, Dean and the team who head up the charity now and again they're employed by Thomas Frank's charity to do that and only that they will have clients join them most evenings across our business and it is the biggest eye opener to actually see what some people go through and you know I mean that's now part of our legacy as a business and we don't sing and shout about it in presentations we offer clients the opportunity to join in that movement to try and eradicate food poverty that's that's the ultimate goal and that's working with other like-minded people who are also doing the same and I've done for many years pre Thomas Frank's doing it right so we're just part of that movement now and it's yeah it's a blessing like say the team get to do that most evenings and support their communities up and down the country we've had investment in pizza vans so again another incredible function that goes out and delivers on the streets of London fresh pizzas we did the Guinness World Record Challenge at the back end of last year October time where we produced over or nearly 80,000 meals that would that would be that would go out to obviously those in need in 24 hours and we did that down at some set cricket club and all of our teams from all across the country come down to be a part of that including many clients they've also joined in so yeah look it's created an incredible outlet for for people as well to to sometimes get away from the day to day right I think people need that they need to feel as though including me it's nice to give something back and I think if you get the opportunity to to just go and do a couple of hours where you're giving fresh meals not not not not packet sandwiches which sometimes don't go down too well but I think we're doing these fresh meals two course where they get a main meal in it as a and you know hats off to Dean and Raj for what they've done and what they've built. But hats off to the rest of the business and our clients for absolutely joining in that movement and continuing to support that movement. I'd like to say eradicating food poverty. Fantastic, great work, great work. And tell us with the upcoming headwinds or challenges that we see within food service. If you were to pick the top three challenges, Blaine, that's facing the sector, what would they be and how would you tackle them? Yeah, okay. Well, I'd probably say, I'd probably say number one will always be financial. I think that is on everyone's agenda and probably rightly so. I think there's obviously a lot of changes hit different parts of our industry, whether that be schools or head offices. So I think we worked on a project for a couple of years now called Project Unity. And that's where we met with every single client to understand spend and how we could reduce that spend. That was super important to us is that we address that as a business. So that's been super impactful and will continue to be. It's important that we can deliver great food at a good price with great people. Second point, I'd probably say there's always been an element on recruiting talent. I think the industry has gone for a period of time where talent maybe didn't come into the industry. And I think COVID obviously played a massive part in that with with restaurant closures, got pubs closing one every week. One every day, I believe at the moment. So I do believe contract catering is an attractive market for chefs now. I think those chefs who have worked in potential hotels or where they're doing 12, 40-hour shifts, I think contract catering is attractive market. And you need to be an attractive outfit to get that talent. So all those things I said earlier on about giving them an open door with freedom and vision and innovation is super key. But also giving those leaving school the opportunity to have a career in this industry. So that's a big focus for us. We're working on a really exciting project right now that we will announce in the coming six months. And that really is going to give us the opportunity to evolve the next generation of talent. All levels in our industry and it's not just chefs, it's not just hospitality assistance. It's people who want to go into finance, into marketing, into creative design, into HR. It's all those things because I think it's sometimes forgotten that we just think it's chefs. It actually is a wider network of people that actually help us get that plate of food on the table. I think the final point is something we've talked quite heavily about and it's navigating the tech world. I think there's a lot of interest in tech out on the market at the moment. I think to my point earlier, it's navigating the best tech that saves time for people and helps people evolve in their role and makes them better at what they do. And that's no different to me. I mean, I need to use tech in a way that helps me be more efficient as a managing director. So I don't just use any tech. I'll only use tech in that way. But I think those three things over the coming years, I wouldn't say further than that because again, we never know what's around the corner. I think we always have to be prepared for what's next. Whether that be about on school fees, N.I. increases, COVID, inflation, all those things that we as an industry have to tackle and have to deal with. I think managing those as we come, but being the best placed as a business to deal with those is probably what's going to be super key, Patrick. I'm really good. Yeah, no, I like the summary of that. The three things, if I just run through them again, number one, as part of the three challenges that you see financial and the changes that are increasing along the way. I love what you said about project unity. That sounds like giving your clients clarity on spend and an understanding. So as it even comes into the sustainability thing, well, if you want this, then it's going to talk to be a cost implication. Or likewise, that they understand every line of the spend that they're incurring. It gives very good clarity. I love that. It needs to be transparent at every level. Yeah. And when Thomas Frank's started 21 years ago, it was one of Frank's key messages, transparency. Alongside other words, like fun, fresh, transparency was one word that was there because there was nothing more important than transparency and trust in a relationship with your clients. And obviously financials sit at the top of that. Yeah, very good. Because the second part you mentioned, then, was when I came to the recruiting talent and creating an attractive market. And I'm interested to see what you come up with about attracting school leaders or having a program around that. Because earlier on, you mentioned it's about creating a personal development plan for people because they want freedom and creative thinking. So to create an environment around that, it seems like you're well on the way to doing a great job. And the third is the navigation of the tech world. And ultimately, it must save time and make people better. And efficiency goes along with that, the operational efficiency. Again, we touch it up with the chef's side of things. And that's not too taken to account to NCI contribution school fees, cost of goods increasing rates, utilities. We could talk with all that really positive stuff, but we want we won't go there. We won't go there. But then one final question, the way I always as someone at our end of podcast, if food service had a hero, who would it be and why? Really good question. So I think, yeah, I think you could pick so many, you could pick so many different roles for that, for that question. But for me, the people who, the people who clean up your kitchen, the people who are your chefs, right hand person, who actually make the kitchen tick over, are your kitchen porters and your catering assistants, I think they endure some of them hardest tasks. I think they, they really get, they really get stuck in. And in our business, especially, I feel that there are so many kitchen porters that are so passionate about their space and their environment that they're, that they're working in, that they, that they absolutely give it their all. So, look, there's, there's so many different heroes in the food service industry, right? But I think, I think you've, you've got to give it to those people who turn up day in, day out and keep that kitchen ticking over. And for me, no kitchen in this world runs well without a kitchen porter who is dedicated to their role. And that's why it's so important that you give that kitchen porter the opportunity to learn how to cook, to learn how to be better financially, to learn how to write menu, whatever it may be, you've got to give them an open door to learn something new. And that's, let's say, what we tried to do in our business. That's funny. You mentioned, you're highlighting the, the back of host people who are putting in the hard graph that goes unseen and the kitchen porter role in particular. Because there's at least 10 people that I've had on the podcast that started their career as a kitchen porter. Or as my brother used to call it, he didn't want to say he was a kitchen porter, he was a machine operator for, for working with the dishwasher. So, a lot of people use that as a starting point. And so, I think with the, the nurturing of that role, as you said, for people who want to go in a journey, that's where a lot of entry level comes in. So, if you can identify some talent and the want is there, you can go in a hell of a journey up to the very top. And I think that that's something we can easily overlook because it can be seen as quite a mundane role. But as you said, it keeps the kitchen ticking, it keeps it ticking over. Yeah, it does, absolutely. Then it's been refreshing having you on the, on the call and on today's podcast. Thank you for sharing your, your knowledge and your experience of the, the yourself and your own rise to, to being UK managing director, but also of Thomas Frank's, who seems to be continuing to grow year on year substantially, not just in the UK, but internationally. It seems like a very exciting place to be working. So, I wish you and Thomas Frank's continued success in the coming weeks, months and years. Thank you, Patrick. Really appreciate that. And I look forward to seeing you around. - Pleasure. Thanks, Blaine. - Bono. - That was Food Service Matters. And a big thank you to Blaine Shepard for sharing his journey, insights, and the values that shape his work at Thomas Franks. From financial transparency through project unity, to talent development, and simplifying tech for chefs and customers, Blaine reminds us that Food Service is about people first. If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe and leave a review and share it with your network. I've been your host, Patrick McDermott. See you next time on Food Service Matters.