249 - How to Stop Listening to the World and Find Your Inner Voice with Geoff Laughton & Mark Johnson

We hear a lot of perspectives on the mankind podcast. Inclusion of a guest is not an endorsement of their views. And the opinions expressed here do not always represent the mission or values of the mankind project USA. Have you ever been alone in the wilderness? No phone, no distractions, no one to talk to. Nothing left to do, but listen. But not to a podcast, not to advice, only to yourself. For most of us, that kind of silence can feel uncomfortable, maybe even confronting. Because when everything else is quiet, what's left is the one voice that I often, many of us often, spend a lifetime ignoring. In this episode, I sit down with Jeff Lawton and Mark Johnson, the founders of the Undaunted Man. Two men who have dedicated their lives to helping men reconnect with that inner voice. Not by telling them how to be men, but by helping them stop outsourcing that answer all together. We talk about what it really means to be internally governed, how men can move from confusion and disconnection into clarity, purpose, and grounded self-trust. And we dive into one of their most powerful experiences, the Silent Summit, a multi-day immersion in nature where men get to strip away every distraction and come face-to-face with themselves, with that inner voice. This is a conversation about stillness and truth and about what becomes possible when a man learns to listen. Welcome to the mankind podcast. [Music] Hey, everybody. Welcome back. It's Boys in Hodgson with the mankind podcast, the podcast, where we are breaking the mold of modern manhood to prove that there is more than one way to be a man. And I think we're doing a very fine job. So, afternoon, I get the opportunity to sit down with one man and I've known for a very long time, one man that I've not known very long at all. Jeff Lawton and Mark Johnson, guys say hello. Hello. Hello. Thanks for having us. And there they were. Jeff and Mark, respectively, answered in exact order. I've known Jeff since at least like 2006, something like that since very early in my mankind project time and participated in some trainings with him way back in the day. And then we've had like a kind of quasi-mentor relationship and a quasi- and a friendship for all of this time. Yeah. Yeah. I remember I was just remembering earlier in today. You put together my first ever website, too. And there you go. And there is that also. Wow. That was another life on the other world. Good to see you. Jeff Lawton is as a men's coach and an international best-selling author with more than three decades of experience guiding men and couples toward emotion maturity, integrity and conscious partnership. Mark Johnson, his partner in the Undaunted Man, which is what we're going to be talking about today is a men's leadership guide working at the intersection of psychology, spirituality and lived responsibility. His work is prohuman, pro-social and rooted in the belief that mature masculinity is steady, relational and internally governed. There's a lot of things that could be unpacked right in there. Guys, thank you for coming and hanging out with me. So I'll say I'll give a little context. Jeff, you and I had been out of touch for a while and then we hung out and Mark was there at the big tent summit. So this is at least like, I don't know, seven or eight podcasts that have come out of connections from the big tent summit. And you were there representing it with your organization Undaunted Man. So Jeff, why don't we start out with you and tell me about how Undaunted Man came to be? Well, one upon a time, back when I had hair, I did, and then wore your training adventure. Yes. And the outback of New Mexico in 2000. And over the course of a few years of being with MKP, I decided I wanted to move into a different enterprise that MKP did a beautiful job of setting me up for. I've remained enormously grateful for everything that I experienced with MKP and still send men to the weekend. And when I got invited to do a whole different body and work by a good friend of mine who had a lot more men's work experience than me back in 2005. So we put together a company where we did our main body of work besides groups was a workshop that Mr. Hodgson here did one of in I think it was Rowland Island. Correct. Cranston Road Island. Right. Right. Right. And so as that work went along for a while, my partner and I had a parting in the ways. And then I just, I moved to Colorado from California and a fellow MKP friend of mine said, hey, you want to do a men's group? I said, sure, why not? Of course. So we started a three-man group in Durango, Colorado. Wow. And out of that came the NWTA. And then after six years of helping build a very robust community for MKP in Durango. Yes. I moved up here near the Boulder area and started my own group and ran that for a while just one group and one evening a guy named Mark Johnson popped into a meeting. All right. And which I've been enormously grateful for is the meetings were in my basement. And Mark just fucking hates basements. So he hung in there for probably a year or two and then he approached me about, you know, I think you really got something here and I'd love to part you off with you and turn this into a bigger enterprise. And I don't think we even saw the word movement back then, but certainly Mark had a vision for what was possible that was bigger than my vision at the time. So that was the beginning of what began as the evolving man. And this was about 10 years ago that we started this together. And then we found out that there was some dude in Canada who had evolving man.com which at the time from when I heard was really about helping men figure out how to have a better shot at getting laid, which was not the purview of our vision from what we were up to. So two years ago we became the undaunted man. And so we do groups. We do one-on-one coaching. We do retreats and workshops. And we grown from one group that, you know, Mark and I were doing together initially into right now we have six, I believe. Nice. Thank you. Mark, let me jump over to you because this was kind of your question that you wanted. So what makes it different? What is it about the undaunted man that keeps you engaged, in loving it and passionate? Well, I got into, you asked me when we were, before we got started recording how I got into men's work. And it wasn't indirect route, but I can tell you that after I'd already done a whole bunch of work, I got to a point where within a month I lost my girlfriend, my job, and my house, the place I was living. Wow. And that was in 2002. And I came home from getting fired and I curled up on the floor of the house that I was going to be moving out of in a few weeks and kind of gave up or gave in. I didn't give up. I gave in. And it was kind of a, it was a, it was like pushing the reset button on everything I thought I knew about how the world worked and how life worked. And what I realized or began to realize in that moment, it took me a while to put it all together, is that I had spent my life, I told you that I'd been a seeker since I was, you know, my earliest memories. But I had been doing what everyone had been telling me to do. I was listening to what women said when they told me what they wanted and I was trying to be that guy. I was listening to what my, I listened to everybody's instruction on what it meant to be what we used to call back in the day. A sensitive 90s guy or a sensitive new age guy, a snag is, which is a new acronym, which I had just heard for the first time about a month ago. And it wasn't working. It was absolutely wasn't working. And what I've since discovered is that the problem was that I was listening to other people tell me how I should be. Instead of listening to the internal guidance that was available to me all along that was giving me direction on who I am and how to express that in the world. And so what sets us apart is that we don't tell men how they should be. We don't, we don't, the space is full of organizations that love to tell men how they should be and what makes a good man. And from our perspective, what makes a good man is a man that is capable of following that inner guidance that belongs to him. And what we know how to do is facilitate their process, each man's process so that they can discover that for themselves. And there are themes that come out of that and there, I mean, we have far more in common than we have differences. But every man has their own unique way of expressing that and coming to that. And it's infinitely more powerful in our experience for a man to discover who he is for himself, rather than for someone on the outside of him to tell him who he is or who he should be. And I think that's what sets us apart. And what have you either either one of you, but and what does this look like for men that you've worked with talk about some of what you've seen and experienced in walking this path with men. The first thing that we really see is this, I'll put it this way, the surprise on their faces when they realize what it's like to be comfortable in their own skin. For the first time, because as you know, I mean, your MKP is a great organization. You've been in the space for a long time. There are a lot of competing visions for what, what, how to define a man. And there is nothing that will get a reaction out of me faster than someone standing on a stage telling men how they should be or who they should be. I mean, you've got very well intentioned people from everywhere on the political spectrum, everywhere on the psychological spectrum. And believing that they have the answer that if men would just be like this, they'd be happy in the world would be a better place. And I've seen men and I was one of those men tear themselves apart trying to conform to whoever's vision that that they're attracted to. And when men recognize that no one can tell them who they are or how to be, but they know where they have the opportunity to know and that realization comes and they get comfortable in their own skin from maybe the first time in their lives or maybe the first time since they were a child. It's a form of liberation for them. And then anything is possible. Yeah, Jeff. Yeah. In real, you know, in real application. The men that have been in our community or come and move through. When they really get the beginnings of who they actually are beneath all the training and conditioning that all was grow up with. They went a lot of our guys come in feeling a lot of them are very successful professionally. You know, they've kind of done the career thing and a lot of them are married and parents, etc. But feeling really stuck. Not very connected at all to purpose or interaction. And so they they're flailing either in their marriages or in their careers. Having challenges with addiction, having challenges with parenting and really feeling in a loss. And finding their way through all that. So we've, you know, just to give you a couple of examples. We've got guys that have realized that the marriages that they were in. The way they were showing up in those relationships was creating a lot of suffering for them, their partners. Often times vice versa and feeling powerless, being with a partner who is disrespectful or treats them poorly and not having a voice. So men have found their voice. And there are marriages that have literally been reinvented from the ground up because of the work that we've done with them. And to be totally transparent, there have been marriages that have ended. They were long past their expiration date. And both partners have gone on to a much more fulfilling relationship where they everybody gets to be who they really are. We've had several men at a crossroads with their careers. Good income, good jobs, and they're just bored, shitless, and they have no idea what to do. And literally taking really reinventing things professionally in the way that when I was that age, when they just scared the crap out of me. So there's been that. There have been men who have become much more present, much more amazing dads to their kids. So and I just talked with a man today who's really looking at wanting to get involved in helping coach men. Maybe with us, maybe somewhere else, but you know, it opens them up. And the level of confidence. And the men who started barely able to look another man in the eye in a circle, who are becoming glues of their circles because of their confidence in their clarity. Thank you. But a lot of times, you know, sometimes guys are flailing, but a lot of times they're just unfulfilled. There's just an unease or a malaise that they feel. You know, it's not that their life is in crisis. It's that they just know that there's something more available to them. They don't know what it is. They can't put the finger on it, but they know that there's got to be something. And there's a tremendous opportunity out there for men when they realize that and then go get support for it. Thank you. I noticed some language in your bio mark that that I think resonates across what I've read of undonted man pro human pro social relational and internally governed. So pick it pick out any part of that. What do you mean by pro human and pro social? Well, part of that comes from combating the. It comes from it's a way of setting ourselves apart because we absolutely are pro human and pro social. And the way masculinity gets painted in the popular media. It doesn't really resonate for either Jeff or myself. So you've got the the red pill people on the right and they paint masculinity in a certain light that doesn't really make sense or stand up to scrutiny. And then you've got people kind of on the other end of the, I guess they're blue pill people that think that the best man is the man that acts and operates the most like a woman. And neither is true, unless it's true for those men individually, but just as a general sense, neither one of those things are good for society, they're not good for families, they're not good for partnerships, they're not good as parents. What's best for, in our view, what's best for the human race, at least in terms of, you know, we're dealing with Western society, is strong grounded, healthy masculine men, which strong grounded, healthy masculine men are a necessary ingredient for a maximally high trust pro-human society and pro-social society. In the same way, if we were working with women, we would say the same thing is true. We need strong, powerful, healthy feminine women. And in our view, those things are complementary strengths. Men and women, the masculine and the feminine work together. The Yinen Yang exists for a reason that symbol has the meaning and carries the weight that it does for a reason. And so, what we have found is that the way that we operate helping men find that internal direction and live that their lives in integrity with that inner voice, however they define that for themselves. The ripple effects are positive not only in their own families, but in their larger circles of their larger social circles. And the well-being of their family and friends is better as a result of that. Thank you. Jeff, do you have something to say with that? Yeah, I knew the only thing that I would add that kind of led to looking at that pro-human piece is on a spiritual level. And, you know, when it comes to spirituality as it plays into any of our work with Andontin, we are spiritually agnostic. Mark and I both know from our own experience that for us having a grounded connection to spirituality and to the divine and learning how to listen to that inner voice that's connected to that has proven to be a lot more effective for how we navigate our lives. But the, with all the divination that's happened in the world really, but, you know, we're in America right now. So all the divination that we've experienced between the left and the right know that spiritually we're big fans of oneness. And without unity, without acknowledging that every human being has value. Every human has their own listening available to them. Then if we were to put all that together, things could work a lot better. And after 2000 or more years of this predilection for zero sum, my territory, your territory, my territory is the right one, etc. Whenever we can do to combat that and bring people together in a unified oneness informed at the very least, perspective where we could all work together to make everything better, then that seems, you know, a lot healthier and feels a lot healthier than, you know, my way or the highway. Well, and there's a lot of, we do, we are advocates as well. One thing that we learned early on as we started, you know, promoting, even when we were just doing really minimal word of mouth kind of promotion, we would find ourselves getting a lot of pushback and making statements like men deserve to get their needs met too are seen as controversial. I've been called misogynistic more times than I can count. Which, which it's nonsensical on its face, but people have strong feelings, but in the popular media men get demonized. Men's needs get dismissed as archaic or wrong or bad or un-evolved. And the only needs that men are allowed in some corners of the media and but particularly social media are the ones that are most closely aligned with what women like. And it's very difficult to be pro-human unless you include all the humans, not just some of the humans or half of the humans. And so what we do is we advocate for all of the humans because we believe that all of the humans deserve to get their needs met in relationship, for example. There's some interesting stuff in there for sure. And I imagine there's some broad brushing, there's some broad brushing maybe going on because I can think of, I can think of some men in the space, some men in the space out there who it's not about being more like women, it's about being more like human beings and that human beings are all walking around with a lot of innate access to all sorts of characteristics that get bucketed. 100% true. We're totally on that page. We actually, to the degree that we teach, we teach men that they the goal of being the best version of themselves includes bringing whatever the moment requires, whether that's strong healthy masculine energy or strong healthy feminine energy. We absolutely are on that page. And that, I mean, for women, it's the same way. For women, sometimes they need to bring strong healthy feminine, sometimes they need to bring their masculine energy to bear to the moment. It's whatever the moment requires. And it's very difficult to argue with the idea that masculine needs get demonized or you call them preferences, call them whatever you want. But masculine needs get demonized in a way that feminine needs do not. And it's very difficult to be pro-human, again, without being pro-all the humans, not just some of the humans or the humans that we like pro-all the humans. -Card. Yeah, I hear you. And there's lots of room for defining who's making the judgments about whose needs. That kind of men's needs get demonized is a statement with lots of nuance in it. Women's needs don't get demonized is a statement with lots of nuance in it. Because there's plenty of room for throwing negative stuff either way in there. We certainly see out on social media these days. Lots of room. And what I hear you saying that I love and that I honor and bring back is that we all have needs and we all get to honor our needs and we all deserve respect and we all deserve human dignity and we all deserve the opportunity to explore what we want and what we need and to be met and to be in relationship and to be human. And I find this is more personal to me, maybe just because I've operated in, I'm more the debater of the between the two of us between Jeff and I. I agree with everything that you said. And in my mind, that's what I was just saying. But the fact that it needs to be clarified is very interesting. And that's kind of what I'm pointing at because it shouldn't be controversial to say that everyone deserves to have their needs met. Yes, agree. And that's a beautiful statement all by itself. I think that's I think that's wonderful. One of the things that I wanted to I'm going to call you because because this kind of self-indulgence. internally governed this kind of self thing. The reason that Jeff and I were circling around each other for a couple of months trying to get some time on the books and missing each other and then two missed appointments and blah blah blah blah. And then I heard about the silent summit and I was like, "Oh, okay. Now let's get in here and talk about this." So this idea of you guys do a couple of things. You do some retreats. But the first thing, just in a couple of weeks, right now we're sitting January 20th, just in a couple of weeks you guys have a thing called the silent summit coming. And I want to hear more about that because I think that's going to be something that guys are going to be like, "Oh, whoa, that sounds really difficult and uncomfortable. Maybe I'll go that direction." It's also, as with many hard and challenging things, it's almost, it's one of the most satisfying things you can do. One of the first steps and to discovering who you are is gaining the skill to listen, to hear what in Christian terms they call the still small voice. I forget, I'm drawing a blank, "Help me, Jeff," on the Buddhist term for the, there's a term for that across every spiritual tradition. To listen to that inner voice, to be able to hear that. And we all have that. Even people that claim to be non-spiritual or claim to be atheist. The first thing I ever ask is, "Okay, that's fine. Be an atheist. We have atheists that have been in our groups for seven years. But have you ever experienced intuition?" And I've never met anybody yet that says, "No." I said, "Well, then there's your intro into spiritual experience. That's your intro into interknowing." And so the silent summit is, it's not a summit with other men, even though there are other men in the area, it's a silent summit with your true self, with your inner self. Because we take men out into the wilderness in nature, which is the greatest cathedral ever. And you sit silently with no distractions, no books, no magazines, no screens of any kind, no music. We ask that men stay within 100 feet of their camp. Don't go anywhere. Don't do anything. Don't set any goals. Don't go for a walk. We offer bonus points for fasting, although the points don't catch anything. But the idea is you move away from all distractions and you just sit in nature and listen. Hear what's going on inside of you. Hear what's going on inside of your mind. Hear what's going on in the nature that's around you and just listen. And I have a guy in one of our groups that's going to a 10 day of a pass and a retreat. And he says that he's very grateful. He's done two of the silent summits and he says they were a great preparation for this 10 day thing he's going to do now. But it's the silence in nature with no distractions. And some men take to it. And other men say it was the hardest thing they've ever done. And not a single man that's done it yet has walked away unchanged by the experience. Yeah. Jeff, why don't you speak to it? When did you first do a silent thing? Probably about 15 years ago. But when I tend to do one not that way, a lot of the silent retreats I did in the past, I definitely didn't use my phone or anything like that. But I would journal. I would bring some of my favorite divination decks and basically just be in nature for two or three days. And I would eat. It was very fun to be eating. And then when Mark had the idea that we should make this available to our guys and do it four times a year, like make it an ongoing offering. Not just in our community, but for men who aren't currently in our community. It came at a good time. The last one we did was last August, I believe. And I was going to go and then for medical reasons I couldn't. So I did it at a friend's ranch and boulder where I fasted for three days and sat out there all by myself. And day two I thought my head was explode. Yeah. The more I sat with it, I got all kinds of insights and and awarenesses and got to take a good look not only at where my spirit was calling me next, but it also gave me a lot of great insight into where I was fooling myself and deluding myself on a number of things, which I've since started making course corrections to get back in alignment around. So I'm a huge fan and there really is something. And Mark and I have done a couple of retreats together and not again in that exact format, but he and I make the point to go out and get a nature together to not only listen internally but to look at where we're being called to take unthoughted next. Yeah. So what's it look like for folks to join you, Mark, you were about to jump back in. Go ahead. Well, I wanted to mention that Jeff mentioned that he felt like his head was going to explode. Yeah. Our minds are like spinning wheels, right? Like an old fashioned spinning wheel. They have momentum and the only way to stop the momentum of a spinning wheel is to stop feeding it, right? If you can imagine, remember when you were a kid, you flipped your bike over and you could spin the wheel with your hand and as long as you kept spinning it, it would keep going. Well, the mind is the same way except if you think of your mind as the wheel and distractions are the thing that keep it spinning, that keep it rolling. And so when you pull those distractions away and it starts to lose momentum, it can feel disorienting, especially if you've never experienced true silence before with no distractions. And but once you get to that point, that's where that's where the magic happens. That's where the goal is. All of a sudden, you start to hear things that you've never heard before. You start to feel things that you've never felt before. And every single man to this point, they go into these normal, normal looks on their faces, but they come out. And if you've ever seen anybody come out of an extended meditation where all the worry lines are off of their face and they just have this peaceful way about them, that's what happens out there. So there's something on the other side of that feeling like my head's going to explode feeling. But the way they work is we get people together on a Thursday evening. We talk for a couple hours and set intentions and for the time. And then the men go off to their solo camps, ideally they are out of sight and out of ear shot of every other human. But they're all in, we're all in within a couple hundred yards of each other, but out of eyesight and ear shot. So you are essentially alone. You go off by yourself for 48 hours, no distractions. Fasting is seriously not required. Some men take it on, some men don't. And we come back together on Saturday evening and do a little debrief of the last 48 hours of silence. What did you learn? What have you taken from this? Excuse me. And we'll talk about those things and then the men will go back out for another 12 hours to meditate on how they're going to integrate their new awareness going forward. And then we'll come back in the morning. On Sunday morning, have a light breakfast, talk through how they're gonna do the integrations, and then we all go on our way. Included as part of it, we do 30 days of coaching, specific to the men that were on that retreat, because as is normal, there's some bonding that happens on that retreat and some unique personal conversation that happened. So we do a 30 day follow-up coaching using the Marco Polo tool to do that. And then we give people a pass in a based 90 day kind of program that they can stay connected to that experience. - Yeah. - And ideal state, you come back and you do it every 90 days to kind of keep that momentum going, stay in touch with that inner voice, and then staying in touch with your inner voice becomes automatic. And that's really the goal. The goal is to help men get to the point where listening to the inner voice being guided by that inner voice day to day, hour to hour, minute to minute is just a natural part of how they live their life. It's the single most empowering thing we can offer. - Beautiful. And what do you witness from the men coming back? Are there any stories that pop for you about, here's the kind of thing we've seen. - Oh, yeah. We had one guy. It's so interesting because he was very, I guess we'd call it fearful, fearful about going on because he's not a camper, he's not an outdoors guy at all, really. And I always say half jokingly, there's bonus points for fasting because it's not a requirement, but if you want to go all in, going all in is fasting. And we were out, we were way up above 11,000 feet in the mountains in Colorado, way, way off the beaten path. And he not only showed up to do the retreat, he showed up with no food in his car, no backup food, no nothing, just water for the three days we were out. And he had a phenomenal experience when he had some things that he was specific things that he was working on, was getting ready to jump into a new career and where he was kind of tiptoeing his way into it, prior to the retreat, he basically sprinted into it after the retreat. We had another guy that was in that same group that is this guy, he's just phenomenal, brilliant. He's a PA that works on simultaneous heart and lung transplants. - Wow. - That's a very up-explo case. And he was been doing that for a long time, was kind of feeling like he was on the edge of burnout. And after that retreat, he came out with perfect clarity, quit his job and is now in India. And he'll be back. It's not like he's not fully committed to living on an ashram for the rest of his life, but he found that there was something more, something that he was missing. And he had, on the surface had everything, like at the absolute tip top of his field. And at best facility on the planet for what he did, wildly successful by every measure, but he knew that there was something more available to him. And so he's now traveling the world and loving it. We still hear from him every week. He's doing phenomenally well. Not quite ready to come back yet, but he will. Four times a year, you guys are going to be doing these retreats. So I know that you've got one coming right up. It will have been done by the time this episode is published. So I'm not going to try and promote that one. But what are you looking at down the road? Are these on a regular basis? Where are they occurring? Do the locations move? Give us a little more so that guys can say, oh yeah, click. There's something here for me. Yeah, so we run them every January, April, July and October. And locations are where the weather is nice at that time of year. We're not interested in, I'm personally not interested in camping in the snow, especially while fasting. So the January retreats are in Southern Arizona. The April retreats are in Utah in the Moab area. The July retreats are in the high mountains of Colorado. And the October retreats are lower elevation mountains in Colorado. So beautiful scenery guaranteed. Perfect opportunity for contemplation guaranteed. And nobody's going to be freezing. - April 29th to May 1st is the next one in Utah. - Beautiful in Moab. Nice April 29th to May 1st. So and before we wrap up, this is not all you guys are doing. So you guys do one-on-one coaching, you offer men's groups and you also offer another program, which is the evolved program that I did way back in 2007. So talk for a few minutes about Inter Compass. - Well, Inter Compass is a fusion. Essentially the workshop that I co-led with my former partner that you did, boys. And it uses a lot of the principles and teachings of the book King Warrior Magician Lover for masculine archetypes and using those in a really brilliant process to help men really get an embodied experience mentally, physically, emotionally of locating among those archetypes where do they tend to hang out the most where they imbalance among them or very imbalanced among them and grounding that into their real day-to-day life. And one of the greatest things about it because every man I know, we can think a lot and we're in our head a lot and that experience allows men to share how they look at themselves, how they see themselves in that framework and then get feedback from the other man in the weekend in a way I'm not gonna spoil, but it's very unique. And they get, I mean, when I went through that weekend when it was being beta-tested by my former partner, I'm not kidding, it changed my life. Like it was one of the most like changing experiences up to that time that I had had because that was where I first saw that how I related to myself and thought I showed up was completely fabricated and inaccurate. And I got that feedback from a bunch of guys who didn't know me from Adam. So that's part of the magic and then Mark had a workshop back in the day that we did a couple of pre-pandemic periods called the IAM workshop. And what we decided last year is we were both hungry to do the archetype work and the IAM workshop gives men invaluable information about purpose, who they, that more authentic self. And so we thought, well, let's put them together and redesign them for today's times and also to bring in more of that going in and getting more connected to that still small voice so that you can leave the work and not only have a much deeper sense embodied and otherwise of who you are. learning how to use that compass that the archetypal feedback process gives you to continually be able to true yourself to your spirit to your inner guidance bring that into your life. And then when you've got to do that for a while and you need another reset like most must do and you can have it in the wilderness and sit by yourself for three and a half days. That's right. Yes, thank you. Call out to Jun Poe, Dennis Kelly. Sit down. Don't move. Shut up. There you go. Yeah. Back back to Zen. Thank you guys. That the intercom compass sounds fascinating and very interesting. Jeff Lotton, Mark Johnson, the undaunted man. So now you know about the silent summit, you know about the intercompus workshop. Where should folks come and find you guys to learn more about the work. The young dogs of man said it's all right there beautifully done. It is all right there. Go take a look guys. Thank you for hanging out with me today and sharing the work with me. I deeply appreciate it. And I'll be looking at future silent retreats because that that sounds like a good one. That sounds good. Would love to have you. Yeah. Thank you, brothers. Have a great day. You too. This has been the mankind podcast produced in association with the mankind project USA. And of course, I want to thank you the listener because through your attention and your support, you make it a heck of a lot easier for us to let men out there in the world know that they are not alone and that there is more than one way to be a man. And if you've been enjoying the music throughout this episode and all of our episodes, check out Jim, Donovan and the Sun King Warriors. I have links to them in the show notes. Now the fee for this episode is simple. If you found gold and insights that you believe could benefit your loved ones and those you care about, be sure to share it with them. And of course, remember that life doesn't happen to us. It happens for us. So long as we rip the pen out of Fates Hand and become the author of our own story. So my friend, pick up the pen and we'll see you next week. Lots of love. Hey, it's poison on the mankind podcast. We brought some incredible guests on to talk about the importance of doing the work to improve our mental and emotional health. And here's a truth. Multiple times over the last 25 years, I've had the help of one-on-one work with some amazing therapists for me, for my wife, for both of us as adoptive parents and for our kids. The mankind project and men's group, though awesome, are not a substitute for professional mental health support. And so I'm thrilled that the mankind podcast now has better help as a sponsor for the show. Better help works online. It asks you what you're working on and then matches you for live one-on-one sessions with a licensed therapist. Someone trained to work with you, listen, and offer helpful insights. I'm using BetterHelp. It's super easy and I like what I'm getting. If getting one-on-one support in the comfort of your own space feels like a good direction for you, I invite you to check it out. Go to the link in the show notes or betterhelp.com/mankind. And if you sign up, you'll get 10% off your first month therapy.