248 | How to Be a Collaborative Professional with Emily Bowie

You're listening to or watching another episode of the ambitious bookkeeper podcast. I'm joined today by a peer of mine whom I actually met years ago in a very small mastermind. And back then, which we'll get into on the episode, she was doing something entirely different in her business, but she actually does have an accounting and auditing background for working in one of the big four accounting firms. And she's here to talk to us today about building her career journey and partnering in a firm for CFO and tax advisory services. And we talk a little bit about the power of strategic partnerships as a bookkeeper, collaborating with tax preparers or other CFO professionals, even if you both offer the same services. And we also cover some quality standards that we do feel people need to be aware of. We dive into personal finance as a financial professional, but also just as human beings. We talk about debt, we talk about soft skills, and how you can develop those a little bit better. This is such a rich conversation, and I'm really excited for you to keep listening. And one quick announcement, by the time this episode goes live, the new version of Elevate may be live. So, I want you to go to ambitiousbookkeeper.com/elevate. And if you end up on that page and it's still a wait list, please put your information into the wait list because that is who is going to know the first moment that the doors open, anyone who is on the wait list. So, I am looking forward to being your mentor as you start building some of these skills that we are going to be talking about on this episode. And I can't wait for you to meet Emily. So, without further ado, let's go. Welcome to the ambitiousbookkeeper podcast. Hey, Emily, how are you? I'm so excited to be here. Yeah, so a little background for our listener. Emily came to me through, she's using a podcast pitching agency, which we didn't talk about before we hit record, but they presented her to me as a guest and normally I ignore those, but I recognize the name because I usually source my own guests and I'm very serious about having quality guests on this podcast, but I usually source my own guests. And so, I kind of just ignore them, but I noticed your name and I was like, hey, I was in a, I was actually in a mastermind with you several years ago. Of course, I would love to have her on the podcast. So, here we are. Little circle. This is so cool. So, give us a little background on how you got to where you were, if you want to go further back, then where we met because things have definitely changed since time. For sure. Give our little background on how you got to where you were. For sure. So, my name's Emily Bowie. I'm one of the partners at Thorin Advisors. And when I started in the online space, everything looked very different than it does right now. My background is I came out of big for public accounting. I did audit. And when I got into the online space, I was doing health and fitness stuff. And it was kind of that intro into, oh, you can build a business online. And then we got debt free from me doing that side gig. And I was like, oh, well, I could probably teach people this. And so then I started helping people with their personal finances. And then I realized I was helping business owners who needed to generate more income. And all those skills I had from public accounting, I was using those to teach them operational efficiency, how to look at their numbers to make them make sense. And then, you know, pricing well, all of that jazz. And so I started with business strategy. And that's when we met. I was had all this background in accounting. And I was like, I will never do accounting again. And then after that, I worked with my business partner as one of our clients at the time. And I helped build systems in her business. And I identified that she had this opportunity. She should take advantage of which was tax strategy because she was just doing tax prep at the time. And the more we worked together, the more we realized there was a gap in the market where they were tax strategists, but they were typically separate from your CFO or your cash flow strategist. And we realized you need cash in order to do tax strategies. So we decided to work on a couple clients together. And it went really, really well. And then we decided to partner together to be able to offer this to a bigger audience. And so that's what we've been doing for the past two years, three years at this point. I didn't realize it had been that long. Yeah. Yeah. So we haven't always started it like we started with the relationship of me building the systems, but I have been dabbling within her business. And then a couple clients here and there. And then we finally were like, we're going to go all in and make this a thing. And it's been a great partnership because we kind of stay in our own lanes and collaborate. And having us in house, we talk more about what's available options wise for the client, but it's really big for us that we have good relationships with other people that are working with clients. So like bookkeepers, financial advisors, all that jazz, even if you don't do cash flow with us and you offer CFO services, we still want to make sure that you have what you need. And you're not translating amongst professionals. So it's one of those things that has evolved over time, but we really love our, you know, financial professionals and like having good working relationships too. That is so awesome. There's so many like little questions that started popping up as you were talking, which always happens when I have people give their background. So when you say in house, does that mean that you guys are both working virtually, but just collaboratively, or do you have a physical office? No, in house as in virtually. She lives in California and I live in Maryland. So we just, you know, hang out on the zoom in the slack of it all, you know. If I'm curious, I'm sure the listeners curious, like what does in house mean? Because obviously like we all know from working in person with people, like it makes it really easy to collaborate, but you still have to be intentional with your business partner because you're on way different times. But it's still doable. Yeah. My second question is one thing you said, maybe question/comment, one thing you said about the partnership working because you guys stay in your lanes. This is one thing that a lot of listeners or audience community members have brought up time over time is like, I don't want to do everything myself. Should I partner or whatever that looks like? And I definitely have some strong feelings about partnership just because I've seen it collapse with clients. But I think one thing that you said is the really important piece is that you guys have very defined lanes. Yes. That does help a lot. So I have very strong feelings about partnerships as well. And I was, I had a partnership where I worked with a creative director and I did all the business strategy side of the house. And that did not amount to a good conclusion. We'll say. And I was like, I'll never do this again. And what I did differently is I went into it informed and said, okay, let's write this out. How does compensation work? How are we going to handle these types of clients versus this type of client? Like everything is very well defined. And so are our roles in the business as well as our procedures and our systems because that's where clarity is kindness in my opinion is like everybody knows where they stand how it all works together. And also I'm really big on writing the dissolution before it has to happen. Type of thing. And being like, okay, when is the sign that it's time to go separate ways? So then we're not trying to figure that out in the emotion of it all and how we're going to handle it at that point. So I'm really big when I even consult with clients to say, hey, let's just plan with the end in mind to say, hey, like, how are we going to do this well? Because we all know people are people. So it can be very difficult. But I think both of us recognize that collaboration part was more important than maybe the ego part for us. That was hard to, you know, go into a partnership too. But also we did referral relationships for so long that also was a viable option. But I think most people were expecting the two of us together. And eventually it was too much income flowing through different businesses, you know. Yeah. And it's just like from a branding perspective. And we all know that clients love everything all in one place. My last podcast episode at this point that just published right before we are recording today. So there's going to be a gap between them. But I did have a podcast episode where I talked with a tax firm owner that started out with tax and added bookkeeping. And I went down a whole rabbit hole last year of like figuring out should I add tax to my firm because I have lots of clients because of that. But in the end, once I ran the numbers, it was not worth it because I don't want to be doing the tax. I don't even have the right background for it. So it would have taken a lot of expense to make sure that we're delivering quality. You know, there's there's that piece too, but like the clients always, if they have the option of having things all under one roof, that's always gonna be what they go for. And it's true. I mean, we don't offer anyone bookkeeping unless we are approached to do the bookkeeping piece. And at then, I still recommend a third people to do the bookkeeping because we do have a solid bookkeeper that we work with, you know, but I feel like you can dilute your strengths if you are playing in playgrounds that aren't meant for you at the end of the day. And it really will limit your capacity. So I think it's really important to have that kind of evaluation when you're deciding how you're narrowing down and what offers you're bringing on and all of that because it could be really bad delivery wise for you if you don't know how to do that in a quality way like your expertise shows. And I've seen it in businesses before that brought on other people's systems or lack there of. And, you know, it did not end well to say that. Yeah. Yeah. Ultimately, you have to evaluate like, is your reputation worth it? But you guys had already been working together. So it was more seamless to combine and because you have the separate roles. Yeah. For you weren't trying to absorb the tax piece, you were adding your services to her tax side and you manage that. So that's like the perfect scenario. And it didn't hurt that like, I was selling her services all the time anyway because as soon as I find out something, everybody needs to know I like tell everyone about it. So it worked out well. I'm like, did you know there's this thing called tax strategy? Like you should be doing this. Because it is, I feel like you just don't know what you don't know. And then once you do, I feel like it's my obligation to make sure my clients have all all the information for them to then make the decision themselves, you know. Yeah. Absolutely. I love that approach. I'm the same way. I'm like anytime client comes to me, I'm like, are you working with anyone on this one thing? Because if not, I have someone for you. That's a good life. I know. I love it because I think it could be like battle of the fittest sometimes with professional services. And there can be a lot of intimidation of working with other professionals feeling like you should be doing something that you're not doing. But really, I feel like when we all work together and we have a good, cooperative relationship, it only allows us to have better service to that client too. So we're really big, even if you don't like, I think I might have mentioned this, but even if you don't do cash flow or CFO with us, I want to know who your CFO is so that the tax strategist can actually work with them and make sure that they know what cash flow projections look like. And can you actually do that tax strategy or do we need to come up with something different? And I think that's also really important that you play, play nice, I think, at the end of the day and make sure we're thinking about what's the best interest of the client too. Yeah. I, right before we recorded, I had just done a live Q&A for my community and one of the questions that came up was around the bookkeeper in my community, is trying to tie out the books to what was on the S-Corp tax return. And I think there's this sense of people thinking like, I've got to figure this out on my own. Right. Like, I don't know what's right or what's wrong. And my reaction is always like, go to the tax preparer ask the client for the talk to them and find out what they want you to do because this is really kind of out of scope for one, but for two, you want to make sure you're not making any adjustments that they don't want made because actually your tax return is never going to tie to your books. Well, and there's things that are on your books that are not going to be on a tax return that aren't deductible and we don't want to really mess that up and they have a process for bringing the trial balance and tying things out the way they should be. So yeah, it's like don't be afraid to communicate with the other team. And if they're not willing to communicate, that's when I tell the client, maybe you should find a different tax preparer because that's a red flag. Oh, always, right. Like, I think that is one thing. It's so interesting being in this, you know, industry is like, I start having conversation and I'm like, nope, that's not normal. Actually, that's not normal. That should we should be having conversations and we should be able to be able to stand behind whatever product we're providing to or service we're providing to someone. I think the biggest thing is I didn't realize how much a tax preparer should care about what your books like your books look like. And I think a lot of tax preparers I had worked with before didn't know anything about people's books. And I thought that was wild when I started working with Andrea and she's like, oh, yeah, make this journal entry, make sure this looks and ties here and does all that. And I was like, is that how that's the normal way to do? She was like, oh, yes, that's how it should be. That was the other piece of it is the communication of like or the accuracy of the books. And that was the other piece of what I told this bookkeeper was first find out how they prepared the tax preparer without the books because she was like, I have these messy books. I'm trying to tie them to the tax return. I was like, first of all, let's find out how they prepared a tax return with messy books. And maybe the situation is that they no longer work with that tax preparer and the new tax preparer is telling them they need a bookkeeper. Great. Get on a game plan call with that new tax preparer about how you're going to tackle this because otherwise you're going to waste a bunch of time for something that maybe doesn't matter because they don't care. They're going to do an adjusting journal entry before they start the tax return next year or maybe it's in such disarray that you need to start bread. Well, and that is very real. And I again, until I was in this like fractional CFO role or I did more cash flow stuff, I did not realize how many people maybe we'll just say, like, don't take pride in their work. They just do what they think is called for the job and then they're done. And they give you a report and they never really look at it. Make sure it's right. Like all of those things. And which is crazy to me because I'm like, I'm from the auditing where everything should tie out. And I recognize, you know, there's timing stuff and there's, you know, all these factors. But I do think it's important to like, if it doesn't make sense, if it feels off, just ask the question. And it's when if you're met with resistance, it means maybe they're not confident in what they have provided or whatever. It's not a new thing. And I think it's more of having that confidence that powerful questions get to the heart of most things. Yeah, absolutely. The quality of your life is determined by the quality of your questions, that whole thing. Yes, exactly. That also brings to mind when you said that a lot of people don't stand behind their work or they're not proud of the work they do. The kind of the thought that I had to is there are a lot of people that you don't know what you don't know. And there are people out there preparing taxes that probably shouldn't be because they don't understand the ramifications of messing things up because they're not actually quite educated enough around that. That's part of why I'm not adding taxes to my firm because I know where things can go wrong and I know where my expertise ends. And I know too much, but not the right amount of debt. Well, and I feel like that's what I've seen just because you can. Doesn't mean you should or you do, you know, is because I've seen bookkeepers come in and just like do real big journal entries to clear out accounts instead of actually looking at the detail to see systematically what is wrong and it is wild to me because and you know, but I didn't know the difference until I started working with really quality bookkeepers that those bookkeepers were in the weeds. They understood why they could tell me a reconciling difference from the jump. I didn't have to go find it and then ask them about it, you know, is very interesting because it is the wild, wild west out here when you're talking about bookkeeping because there's no real requirement, anybody can do it. Even with taxes, like most anyone can do your taxes. My aunt did my taxes for a really long time and she was not a tax professional by any stretch. And so it's interesting because I think people just assume if you're offering it, it's going to be, you have some expertise in it. And my biggest thing is why don't you be really, really good at the thing you do and then bring somebody else in that you know you can stand behind referring them to your client so your client gets the best experience. too. Yeah. And just like recognizing where if it is something you want to be an expert in, recognizing your shortfalls and getting the help and mentorship, the experience, whatever that is required of you. A lot of times people come to me like, do I need experience to start a book keeping business? Or do I have to be a CPA? And I'm like, there's a middle ground. You definitely need experience. You should not be helping clients write out the bat without having worked for someone else. I agree with that. But you don't need to be a CPA. So let's just think of this like ethically. Well, and I think too with that, it's like, I live in the cash flow analysis. FPNA world of it all. I'm not going to do your bookkeeping. Me personally, I'm not doing your bookkeeping because I recognize there's a skill set that is required there that I have it. I don't know the nuances of clickbooks or zero. Like I can click reports from there and I can tell you how I want the chart of accounts. But again, there are people that are skilled and trained to make sure those chart of accounts are good without messing up the data behind. And so I stay in my lane, living where I live. And I let the bookkeeper do what the bookkeeper does. And same thing with the tax strategy. And then I live in the best interest of the client and looking at how their business is going and where their cash is. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree with that. So I didn't realize you actually did start out in the personal finance realm. And now you're kind of starting to circle back. Yes. Yes. So first it started with like our debt-free journey. It was really important for us that I had options. And so financial freedom to me is not like wanting to work, but not having to work. Right. And so I'm getting debt-free was part of that. And we did it. And then I was like, I can probably help people do this. And as I said, it kind of evolved over time. And then I had this like kind of call on my heart because I taught financial ministry at church for the past six years. And I'm using programs that the fundamentals of their program are pretty solid that, you know, they're not reinvent like they're all the same fundamentals. But there were gaps in it. And I was filling in the gaps constantly. And my past to her came to me a couple times. And was like, are you going to create something? Because I feel like you should. And I'm like, I'll pray on it, you know, like I'm real busy right now in life. I have three kids. Like, I don't know if this is the time. And a year later, he came to me again. And he's like, are we buying this curriculum? Or am I investing in your curriculum? And I was like, okay, I'm going to do it. So this summer, I beta launched a financial curriculum faith based on the front end. And it was supposed to be eight weeks turned into 12 weeks. I've created all of these tools for the user to use so that they can actually accomplish their debt free date and all of those things. And it is by far the hardest thing that I've ever done. But also so fulfilling, like so fulfilling. But last week what or this week actually on Tuesday was my last beta test of that. And then we decided after it became 12 weeks, it's going to be 10 weeks. So now I am going to go beta test it. And I have suckered my engineering husband into being one of the facilitators of it so that I can see where the gaps are in it. Because as somebody who knows finances, as somebody who's pretty strong in my faith, I fill in gaps all the time. And I really needed somebody to share it. And the most common person that would volunteer to help me facilitate stuff was a engineer dude or an accountant, right? And you know, there's a lot of emotional stuff that comes with finances that it's hard to address. But even if you know the numbers piece of it. So we're heavy in testing now the 10 week cadence alongside having somebody who's not me facilitated. And it's been great to be honest with you because even if we're talking about business finances, majority of people's business finance issues are personal issues if we're being honest. Yeah, that was one thing I definitely wanted to touch on before we hit record because I have newer bookkeepers starting a business, but I also teach bookkeepers wanting to elevate into the advisory role. And one of the things the process that I use like you is to really find out, well, how much money does the business need to make? You always have to start with that. And in order to have that number, you need to understand what's going on personally, how much they need to pay themselves because usually when we start there, the clients like, oh, I need to pay myself this much. But then they end up pulling out more. Oh, for sure. And it's like, okay, well, why? You said you needed to pay yourself this much. This is what we based goals on, but you're actually pulling out more and now your business is going into debt. So yeah, like, what do we do with it? Well, and I mean, I kept having conversations like that where I'm talking to them about income generation, but I started to realize you couldn't generate enough income because the moment they had free cash flow, they were taking it out and they were using it because they had no system personally. And so I would say for financial professionals, the best thing you can do for a majority of your clients is to do a check-in on their personal finances and say, hey, like, how much effort are you putting in on that end of it? Because I think it pays dividends when they have their finances in order at home because the stress of that will leak into how they approach business. So you will ultimately have to deal with it. It's just when are you willing to deal with it type of thing. Yeah, that's such a good way to put it, which kind of like brings me back to a question that I had around your debt journey because I was just mentoring another bookkeeper that is kind of working on building more of a coaching slash bookkeeping business. And she's really great with personal finance, but she was like, I've never actually been in debt. So I don't, how do you guide someone to get out of it if you've never had to? And I was like, well, this was what worked for me. And I mean, I'll be honest, even though I'm an accountant, like, I've been in debt because of life circumstances. I didn't have a shopping problem. I didn't have this right thing. And I told her I was like, every time I was in debt was because I had to pay for a lawyer. And so that creates a cycle that then you have to get out of. So it could be any emergency that can put somebody into debt. It's not always because people like coffee or shopping. Yeah. Yeah. It's not always impulsive spending, right? And so for me, most of mine was like student loans. It was. So in the Navy, which my husband was in the Navy, they give you like a $20,000 starter loan to teach you how to, you know, I don't know, live your life. Unfortunately, they don't teach you actually how to pay back that loan. And so we were paying back that plus my student loans. And we never really had like credit card problems. But I grew up in an environment where the lights would be off and the water would be turned off. And then there was brand new clothes on the front porch. And so I think I understand where people's priorities can be off. And then to your point where there is life circumstances. And those people are you approach differently and to where the strategy and the skill lies to. And I think that's the biggest thing I have noticed being in this industry is that people want to use streamlined strategies for everybody. And everybody is different. And so I think the best thing you can do, whether you're doing personal finance or business finance, is having a goals conversation on the front end of like what are we doing both personally and professionally now? Five years from now, 10 years. Because with us doing tax strategy mainly on that side, I don't want to make you look like you make no money if you want to go get a mortgage or a line of credit or any of those things. And I think there's a real deficit. If you don't ask those personal questions to better understand who you're working with because your strategies should change depending on who's on the other end. Yeah. And I think that's one of the pieces that is a struggle with bookkeepers trying to step into this role because bookkeeping is very black and white. And you can use the same exact process on every single client because it's not personal to an extent. Like there's still things that you would change like the way you communicate your report with one client are going to be different. But but really understanding someone's goals and motivations and being able to really help them on that level is it's that there was something. I got. It is. It is. Look, I did a contracting gig with a bunch of other CFLs and it was just very clear. I was really good at what I did and the reason wasn't because I was like the stellar analyst. It was that I understood that depending on who I was talking to, it was how I was presenting the numbers. It was how I was presenting the strategy. I was switching strategies based on what I knew was important to them. And I clearly had the most retention and it was because I had those soft skills and I think sometimes it can be frowned upon to not just be a straight shooter when it comes to finances. And I would, I've never met anyone who didn't think I was a straight shooter. It's just that I try to do it with consideration of who's on the other end of it. And I think you can be effective and still recognize people have feelings and hang-ups and hurts that have kept them stuck for as long as they have been, you know. Yeah, that's such a good way to approach things really with anything, even your own team and everything. It's just a good advice for life. Well, and that's what I have always found with finances and even when I was creating this curriculum. I did a decision framework at the end and I'm like, this is great for your finances. But like quite literally anything should go through these four questions anyway. Because at the end of the day, you need to be reflective. At the end of the day, you need to be checking in. Is this aligned with my priorities or am I, you know, getting off track, you know, so? Yeah, and I think that's the thing that we all have to remember and I have to constantly do this with myself because I'm on my own personal financial journey. Yeah. You know what I mean? I have goals and things that I want to achieve and I have to constantly begin again and reel myself back in of like, oh wait, this was the goal. So what do I need to do differently this month versus last month? And it's not just, it's never a set it and forget it, not in business, not in personal when it comes to finances. And sometimes you have to like earlier, we were talking about being in groups and surrounding yourself with certain mindsets and energies and one of the ways that I constantly am able to like, re-center around my goals is I always continue to listen to personal finance podcasts because it re-inspires me. Like so if you're struggling with something and you want to stay on track, like you, you've got to continue to put yourself and be in those rooms where other people are doing the same thing that you want to be doing. Yeah. For sure. I feel like you don't lose track. Well, yeah, and I feel like it can be so tempting to listen to people's advice and sometimes you need to evaluate the advice you're getting, right? If they're not living the life you actually desire, they're probably not the people to listen to. But on the flip side of that is like, it's okay to be human in this industry too. And I think it's more common than not. People who do finances for a living may or may not have the best track record with their personal finances because they do it all day every day. They don't want to do it when they come home. And so humbly being like, hey, I've been there. I've struggled with doing X, Y, or Z is really going to help you be relatable to your client as well. And also sometimes like life just is life and we end up in places we never thought we would be. And it's just take it as life experience so that you can connect with another person because I that's how I've looked at everything I've gone through in my life, you know? Yeah. Oh goodness. On that note, thank you so much for bringing all of this good content to the podcast. I'm so, so glad that we reconnected. And so tell our audience, our listener, where they can find you to connect with you, whether it's through personal finance side or your firm if they have clients looking for an amazing CFO or tax strategist. Yes. Yes. So if you're looking for a CFO, tax strategist, tax preparer, we are at thornadvisors.com thorn with an e at the end, I may note, and then we are also that on Instagram. And then if you're looking for personal finance or just want to connect, my website is Emily the booey, V as in Victoria, booey as in David Bowie dot com. And same on Instagram and I would love to chat. Awesome. Thank you so much for taking the time for us today and let's say in touch. Yes. Wonderful. Thank you to everyone who helps make this podcast possible. Content and interviews are produced by me, Serena Shu. Our intro and outro music is written and performed by my brother Ian Gilliam. Editing is also by Ian using his awesome sound engineering skills along with the script software. Hosting and publishing is by Buzzsprout. And you can check out the show notes for links to all of these amazing resources and resources mentioned in the episode. Be ambitious.