#2450 - Tommy Wood - The Joe Rogan Experience

Speaker 2 All right, nice to meet you, Sir. Stimulated mind a few future proof for your brain. Is that possible? Future proof. Why can't I say that I already I already have dementia. Future proof your brain from dementia and stay sharp at any age. What? First of all, what prompted you to write this? Speaker 1 So I've spent a long time working in a whole range of different spheres related to the brain. How to treat newborn brain injury, how to treat and maybe even prevent certain traumatic brain injuries and concussions. Looking at what effects long term cognitive decline and dementia, as well as working with elite professional athletes, particularly Formula One drivers trying to help them, you know, stay on top of their game for as long as possible. And I saw across all those different areas, there were these core things that the brain seems to thrive on that are required either for development or maintenance of cognitive function. And these are things that people can apply to themselves on day-to-day basis, improve their focus and well-being now and then. Long term, that translates to a lower risk of dementia. Speaker 2 So is dementia and is it is a genetic, is it a genetic thing or is it a function of atrophy? Is it a combination of those things? Speaker 1 It's a combination of those things. Certainly there's a genetic components. So maybe I will zoom out to start with and just think about like what is dementia? Dementia is the clinical diagnosis of losing so much cognitive function that you're not able to take care of yourself on a day-to-day basis. There are several different types of dementia. The most common is Alzheimer's disease. That's something like 60 to 80% of cases of dementia. The next most common is vascular dementia, something like 10 to 20%. And then there are others like front temporal dementia, Lewy body dementia, dementia you get with Parkinson's disease. But those first two, something like 70 to 90% of dementias, they are directly tied to lifestyle and the environment. And right now it's estimated that somewhere between 45 and maybe even 70 or more percent of dementias are preventable. And most of those fall into those two categories. There is a genetic component. So Alzheimer's disease has 2 broad types. There's early onset Alzheimer's disease that's caused by a single mutation in the single gene, something like the amyloid precursor protein gene or one of the presnetting genes. Those people get Alzheimer's in their 30s to 50s. It's a very predictable and quite rapid decline sometimes. But that's maybe 1% of Alzheimer's. The vast majority, like when we think about Alzheimer's, we think about an age-related dementia and this is much more related to the environment. So there is a genetic component. You might have heard of APO E4. Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 1 So you can have three different flavours of APO E apolipoprotein E 2-3 and four you get 2 copies. Speaker 2 Which is the one that makes you more more likely to get CTE? Is that 2? Speaker 1 No. So that's, that's, that's four as that's four as well. Yeah. So 4 essentially has an effect of amplifying certain inflammatory effects in the brain. That's probably why it makes CT worse, makes it more likely for you to get CTU because if you're getting repetitive impacts, repetitive injuries, then it sort of exacerbates or makes that inflammatory response worse. But when you think about that in terms of Alzheimer's, if you have one copy of Evapo E4, your increase, your risk of Alzheimer's has increased by sort of two to six times. If you have two copies, it's 6 to 20 times depending on how you look at it. But all the data suggest the Apple E 4 is a risk multiplier, right? So it's not that if you have a copy of Apple E4, you're definitely going to get dementia. It's the, in the setting, particularly of the modern environment, risks of dementia or risk factors for dementia are amplified like excessive alcohol intake, physical inactivity, low quality diet. So that also means that if you have, if you, if you then address those risk factors, you have greater benefit, right? Because you're offsetting some of that additional risk. So however you look at dementia from a genetic standpoint and it can also be family history, right? If you have a family history of dementia, you have an increased risk of dementia. But a lot of what comes with family history is shared environment and shared lifestyle, right? You eat and sleep and move like your parents did, and so if they had a lifestyle that might increase their risk of dementia, you get that as well. So even if you do have an increased genetic risk, you can offset a large part of that through lifestyle and other environmental factors. Speaker 2 OK. So for some people, there's an increased genetic risk, but do some people who do not have this increased genetic risk, do they still have a possibility of getting dementia just from atrophy or just from sedentary lifestyle, no stimulation whatsoever? Speaker 1 Yes. So the the kind of the way we would say it is that not everybody who has APOE 4 gets Alzheimer's and most people who have Alzheimer's do not have APOE 4. So absolutely. Speaker 2 OK. So is it just like everything else, like your muscles atrophy, your bones weaken when you don't put load on them? Is that what it is? Speaker 1 Yeah, so that's like the core thesis of my book, right? It's called The Stimulated Mind. For that reason, I think that in the and the ties to the slightly provocative because in the modern world we are. Speaker 2 Hyper stimulated. Speaker 1 Over stimulated. Speaker 2 And nonsense. Speaker 1 Exactly. So we're over stimulated and under stimulated at the same time. Speaker 2 Right. We're getting a lot of input, but we're not doing any calculations, we're not formulating new ideas, we're not being creative, we're not problem solving. We're just being inundated with nonsense. Speaker 1 Exactly. So the the function of any tissue in the body, right. You mentioned the muscles, the bones, the liver, the immune immune system. Their function is dependent on the stimulus you apply to them, right? And so the brain is exactly the same. And if you want functions and networks in the brain to function to perform well, you need to challenge them in order to enhance capacity in them. Speaker 2 Do you think you need to keep your liver working healthy by drinking every now and then? Speaker 1 So the it's the example of, yes, if you drink a lot of alcohol, your liver gets better at metabolizing alcohol. So it kind of it proves the point that doesn't necessarily mean that that the alcohol is is there to keep your liver healthy. Speaker 2 Probably not. Didn't they used to do that with people that had if they had lung problems, they would give them cigarettes? Yeah, like people with asthma. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. And they didn't turn out so great. Like the theory was OK but. Speaker 2 I think they should have just been breathing heavy. That would have been a better application of that because it's just like you don't want to torture. Your lungs are in a filter to, like, torture you. Yeah. So when you start studying this, do you have someone close to you that has Alzheimer's or is it just a field of study that you were interested in? Speaker 1 Yeah, there was two different things. One, I focused initially on the brain early in life and then, you know, elite level cognitive performance in athletes and you kind of see that these things sort of tied together like what happens early in life, what happens during life effects, what happens later in life. But I also had my grandfather died of dementia. He he was an alcoholic and he had a combination of alcoholic, you know, alcohol induced brain atrophy plus vascular dementia. Speaker 2 I really wonder about people today and this is one of the reasons we're also interested in this because the what are we, what we were just talking about before that people are being oversaturated with nonsense but not stimulated in any way. The challenges your mind. I mean, this is a constant state today. And then on top of that, you've got a lot of people that are using AI throughout their day to solve all their problems where they don't think at all. And there's been some studies on that that show that it's a decrease in cognitive function, like when they asked them to actually use their brain, the brain works less well than it did before they start. You'll see you're not getting educated by chat, CBT, no, or any of these. What you're doing is you're letting it think for you. Speaker 1 Absolutely. So this one, what maybe one of the studies you're thinking of was a study that did at MIT and they had students write essays and they could either just write it using whatever they had in the head already or using Google or using an LLM. And what they showed was that as you increase the amount of like outside support you've got, you know, Google and then I think it was ChatGPT, then there was less activity in the brain networks associated with actually doing the task. And students remembered less well afterwards. So I mean, this isn't surprising. You're not using your brain, therefore it does, it doesn't engage in the task. But what's interesting is that they, they found a version. So like some of the students who had previously written the written, written an essay just for themselves. Then they asked them to go back and use ChatGPT on top. And what they found was that the final output was better. So the way that we can use these tools, rather than just asking it to do all the stuff for us, which is what most people are doing and I think will cause skills and maybe even parts of the brain to atrophy because they're not being used, is we use them as orthotics. Like they can expand our capacities, right? You try writing it all first and then you say, hey, what did I miss? What am I not thinking about? And you can kind of build on it from there. Speaker 2 And that might perhaps actually stimulate your mind. Exactly why didn't I think of that? Like next time I'm writing a paragraph, I'll consider these options. Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly. So you actually have to like fully engage your brain in that process. But then they might, you might. The end result might be better. Speaker 2 Well, it's just such uncharted territory for us. Yeah, right. All this, the especially social media, I mean, completely uncharted territory that people are staring at their hand for 8 hours a day. I mean, that's really what you're doing. You're staring at your hand and you're hoping, usually unsuccessfully, to get something that really excites you and there's something that's really unique and, and changes your perspective on things. I mean, I think maybe when I was using social media every day, maybe once a day, I would get something that was really interested in that I would save. I'd go, oh, that's actually interesting. And I would think, OK, that'd be a good subject to bring up on the podcast. But the rest of the time it was just horseshit. Speaker 1 Well, part of the algorithm and this, you know, I'm not an expert in training algorithms to do this, but part of the the goal of the algorithm is that you don't get everything that is perfect, Although that immediately captures your attention upfront, right? Because you want it to be random. And there's like method in the randomness that keeps you scrolling because eventually you'll get those small bumps that then that then keep that keep keep you going. But what's particularly interesting about social media is it leverages the fact that we are social beings, so we prioritize information that is called the acronym is prime, prestigious in Group, moral and emotional. And this is even greater in social contexts, right? Because we are trying to learn about our social environment so that we can survive our group and be fitter. And so social media makes us think that we will get that information whilst at the same time offering us the exact opposite, which is essentially isolation. But it leverages that desire of the human brain to find this social information and this social connection, whilst not giving us any of that. Speaker 2 Also without it getting any feedback from another human being while you're communicating ideas. So you could say the most horrible shit to people in a comment or a text message and you don't think about it because it's like there's not a person there. Yeah, not right in front of you. Yeah, I'm designed for like, it's like an anti human device. Very weird. But. Speaker 1 I mean, if if your goal is to capture attention, they're doing a great job of it. Speaker 2 Well, not just that they're acquiring enormous wealth and also enormous influence over the just all sorts of things, politics, economics, I mean some of the richest corporations in the world, they, they gather a thing that we never thought of was valuable, which is data. I mean, when we, when people first started using these things, when people first started using the Internet, nobody really thought that data was going to be one of the biggest commodities in the world. Speaker 1 Yeah, but now if they know what captures your attention and what you'll spend money on and like, that's the perfect way to to get as much out of you as possible. Speaker 2 So the concept is future proofing your brain. Like what are the things that you think people should be doing to try to future proof the other than avoiding social media and avoiding a lot of the stuff that we're talking about here? Speaker 1 So I think right, every tool has a possible use. So like for instance, social media, if if you have crafted a social media that allows you to maintain connections that you wouldn't have otherwise, like the original version of Facebook as it existed 25 years ago was just like posting pictures and you could like chat with some family members, right, right. So if you use social media like that and there were studies that show that if you're using online tools, including social media and it increases communication and connection beyond what you would have had otherwise, that can be a net benefit. If it's all you use and it's replacing in person human connection, then it's then it's a net negative. So there can be ways that it could be beneficial. And you know, if your Instagram feed is just like cute dogs running around in the snow, which is what most of mine is right now, right? That can be a nice 5 minute break in between like cognitively demanding tasks. That's, that's, that's, that's fine. But when you think about future proofing your brain, this, this idea that there is some unknowable future, right? We don't know what the future is going to look like, but if we want to exist in that future, we're going to need good processing speed, good decision making skills, good working memory, good emotional and social and social skills, right? And so in order to maintain those, we need to challenge and stimulate them. So the, I think the most important thing most people can do is think about new, challenging and often creative skills. And there's a lot of evidence for creative arts, music. What, what they do is they improve the function of networks in the brain that are at risk during the process of aging, particularly because they're important for attention and social connection. And so if we really invest time in doing these things that we suck at and get better, but get get better at them, we maintain these broad cognitive skills that we're going to need in the future regardless of of what happens. And some of that is also personal. So I thought the goal is to build as much cognitive capacity as possible, right? I have this idea of headroom, which is the difference between what you what you need on a day-to-day basis versus what you're truly capable of. It's the difference between like on a day-to-day basis, your legs need to be strong enough to like get you up off the toilet, right? But your maximum capacity is like, what's your Max back squat? The, the difference between those is your headroom. And then that gives you capacity to perform when you're injured or sick or you need to like lift your car off your body because it got flipped in a car accident. Like all those things like when you need to draw on greater resources, you want those resources to be there because we are going to be stressed, sleep deprived, sick, and we still want our brains to function. So investing in like really challenging tasks and skills builds that capacity so that we have access to it when we need it. Speaker 2 What, what is the function and like what, what, what is the effect on the brain when you learn a new skill? Like sucking at something, which I always tell people is one of the best things you can do. A lot of people don't enjoy it because their ego, they don't like being frustrated that they're terrible at something. But there's something about not being good at something and dedicating yourself to it and and seeing market improvement that stimulates all sorts of areas of your mind, which I find. Speaker 1 Really interesting. So most people don't realize that the process of learning, which in itself is like the core process of neuroplasticity, right? The brain making new connections and cementing new connections, that whole process is driven by failure essentially and making mistakes. Because your brain is a prediction machine, it's constantly predicting what's going to happen next based on you're the world around you and what you're trying to do. And so imagine that you're trying to do some kind of new move in jujitsu or something and you have no idea how to do it. You're going to try it and there's going to be this big gap between your expectation and reality. That's going to be frustrating, right? That's the feeling of failure, but that's what diverts resources in the brain to say, hey, we need to close the gap between what we hoped would happen and what actually happened. And that's what drives neuroplasticity. And this is also then what drives the cementing and function of these networks in the brain associated with that. So the idea that you you start sucking at something and you get better at it over time, that is exactly the thing that the brain needs in order to improve and maintain its function. Speaker 2 Think you know what's going to happen during the big game? Call it with DraftKings predictions a new app. Or you can predict outcomes on football's biggest game. Make real money predictions on the big game and put your money where your knowledge is. Pick a topic, make your prediction. What will the total score be? Will the underdog cover which team will be lifting the trophy at the end? Then see. Will your big game smarts pay off? 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So I try to smash as many things into a day as possible, but there's many times where I think, boy, I think I'm doing too many different things that I'm trying to get good at. Yeah. And maybe it would be better if I just concentrated on one. Speaker 1 So there's a few different ways to look at this. I think that a broad base and a broad range of different skills is probably something that we should all hope to have like. Speaker 2 Talent stacking. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, exactly. And if you think about like one of my favorite books is Range by David Epstein, which, which talks about the broad range of skills that people who then really success it really succeeded in academia or sports have, right? They didn't specialize really early. They have like a broad base of talents that they can then draw upon as they as they specialize later in life. And I think that's something that we can all aspire to. But equally, what's probably more common is that we try something and we do it for a little while and then we just kind of like give up on it and we try something else. And yeah, there's, there's like a little bit of benefit to that. But when you look at some of the studies that really examine the effect of learning some of these creative skills, and they've done it with tango dancers and painters and video gamers. When you, when you, when you compare an expert to an amateur and where you're seeing the benefits of expertise in terms of the function of some of these networks in the brain, it really is the development of some level of expertise. It is probably required to see the maximum benefit. Obviously the learning curve is steepest at the at the beginning, right, right when you're alert beginning to learn something, that's when you'll learn the fastest. But there, there is also some benefit to expertise. So some of that like just to say that pick one or two things that you're actually excited to continue getting better at for a long period of time. And so then maybe you do have to like chart, like try a bunch of different things until you find the thing that like really like gets you going. But across all those different skills, they have similar core effects on the brain. So you don't have to do one or both. You can just pick the one that you enjoy the most. Speaker 2 So it's just about the struggle of trying to get better at something, essentially. Yeah, Yeah. And my wife is learning a new language right now and she's she's been so excited about it. And it's like, it's really interesting because she starts talking around the house in French and. And it's one of those things where you like, I was, I'm watching her do it, she wasn't doing it. And then she's been doing it over the last couple months. And I'm seeing this like excitement in this like new project. And we were talking about it, about how that is one of the things that's very difficult to do. But it's, it's more complex than learning because it's learning and interacting. It's not just learning. You're learning, but you have to, it requires like this back and forth with another person. You have to understand sentence structure you go to. It's just like calm. And especially French is so different than English. There's, there's so much weird shit involved in it. But you could see, like I could see in her that like this is very stimulating to her mind. Yeah. And it made me go, oh, man, I should learn a language. But I'm like, fuck, where do you have the time to learn a language? But then I thought about like when I was on social media all the time, I would look down on my phone some days and it would say screen use. Today, six hours. I'm like fucking six hours. Speaker 1 That's what your time is. Speaker 2 Right. If you spent six hours just learning Spanish, how you'd be fluent. I'd be able to go to taqueria and order in Spanish, you know? Yeah. It's like we spend so much time doing nonsense that anything that you can do that requires your brain to be in that uncomfortable state of what is the, what is this? Oh, it's this is that, this got it. You know that, that dance, that firing of the synapses and, and forcing your brain to figure this, this puzzle out. So many people don't have that. And I see it in people that get stagnant where they're doing the same thing every day. Their job is fairly mundane and kind of boring and maybe they like it, but there's nothing stimulating about it. They're talking the same boring ass people. They don't exercise, they go home, they watch TV and then they shut off and they do it all again. And then you talk to them like 5-10 years later and it's almost like they've, they're slipping. Like you see it, You can see it in people that have mundane existing distances. Like their stimulation is so low that their ability to be stimulated is low. Speaker 1 I think that that thing you describe is so baked into our society that we've started to believe that it's normal, right? So when you look at the trajectory of cognitive function over the over like your entire life, imagine like a graph where on the one side you have cognitive function and it could be something basic like processing speed. How quickly do you did your brain process information? On the bottom is age, right? It tends to peak sometime around our sort of mid 20s to early 30s. It's usually the peak on average tends to be higher. And later, the more time we spend in education, so the more time we spend essentially as professional learners, the more we can build that kind of final capacity. After that, it's just sort of like an average decrease downwards. And a colleague of mine, Josh Turknet and I, he's a neurologist, We wrote a paper a couple of a couple of years ago where we theorized that the reason why we see that decline in the population level in cognitive function from about that age is because we go to work, we do the same thing again and again and again, and then everything else that life gets in the way. And we never spend that same time investing and building our cognitive capacities the way we did when we were kids and when we were in school. And so the decline is partly because we just stop doing that. So the Part 1 of the theories of aging is that it's just the continuation of development, like process of development. And most of the processes of development in the brain are refining connections based on the environment and the stimulus the brain receives. So if you start removing stimuli because you're no longer engaging in these like cognitively challenging things, the brain is going to start removing connections. Hey, I don't need that, right? I'm not, I'm not using this part of my brain. And as a result, you start to see decline. And so there are studies that show if you have, if you have a very stimulating job, it's very complex problem solving skills, lots of social interactions, you have a slower rate of cognitive decline as an adult and A and a lower risk of dementia. You see, in individuals who continue to engage in reading, reading, writing, lectures, dancing, you know, a whole bunch of hobbies. Again, you see a slowed rate of decline. So some of what we just expect to happen with age is because of the way we we, we stop engaging with the world and we stop challenging ourselves. Speaker 2 Well, it completely makes sense, right? Like if you think about physical activity it, it goes along the same kind of path exactly. You see, I have friends, I'm 58, which is crazy to say, it sounds so old, but I have friends that are 58 that are basically they're skeletons with like meat hanging around various parts of it. But my physical ability is very similar to what it was when I was in my 30's. The only way that I could really test it, it's like physical competition. And I'm not really interested in that. I don't want to get hurt. But my capacity for work is very similar. And I know that because I force it, you know, I, I make myself do it. And I would imagine the same thing is true with, with the mind. I mean, it has to be, I think it's all together. It's a use it or lose it. And if your mind doesn't have a, a need to be constantly intrigued and stimulated like you could think for survival, right? One of the things that speculated maybe I can ask you about this, because this is one of I, I think about this a lot like what is ADHD and I whether or not it's actually a problem, I think it's a superpower because I'm pretty sure I have it, you know, but yet I can folk I'm very functional. I can focus on things and as long as I tire myself out from activity, I can relax and I can concentrate on things. And I'm I'm very interested in certain things and I can lock into them and concentrate. But if if I was forced to be in a classroom with a very boring teacher teaching a subject I'm not that interested in and I was a child, if I had the wrong parents, luckily I didn't, I would be medicated. Yeah, right. But I think that that is this ability to focus on certain things like hyper focus was probably a function of a persistent hunter, right? Because if you wanted to catch an animal, you couldn't be a person that gives up quick. You had to be a person that you you would keep looking for tracks. You keep trying to find sign. You're trying to figure out a way like I've got keep pushing one more hour. We got 20 minutes of daylight left. I've got to figure this out, right? You. You. That thing had to be in you in order to be a successful hunter. Speaker 1 So I'm sure that that's, that's part of it. The, the current picture of ADHD, I think is, is quite complicated. So I have family members with ADHD. When they then started on medication, they were like, oh, actually all of a sudden my brain works right. So. Speaker 2 Right. But that medication is Adderall, right? If I took Adderall, I would say the same fucking thing. I don't need a stimulant. Yeah, but if I took a stimulant right now, I'd be like, dude, I'm so much better. Speaker 1 So no, but but you know what happens in in certain individuals with ADHD when you give them stimulants, they calm down, they calm down, right? So I think there's a combination of multiple things. Some is yes, like these can be very beneficial traits in in the right settings, but you also have to consider that we're layering on a modern environment that's like bright lights at night, a whole bunch of caffeine and stimulants, right? And yeah, of course some of it is I think, right. The teacher is boring and they're like, they're just not engaged because you know, the majority of people with ADHD can still focus right on things that they're interested in focusing in, yes or on. Speaker 2 Even without any kind of medication. Speaker 1 Yeah, so, but there's like a sliding scale and I think there's a whole bunch of different reasons why for one individual they might experience symptoms of ADHD or not. So I think, I think it's complicated. Speaker 2 Can I ask you before you go any further than that, can I ask you how much of that is dependent upon physical activity? Like, do we study ADHD based on whether someone is physically active or not? Because look, if I'm not physically active, I'm a mess. Like if for something, if something happened and for some reason, like I got a court order, you're not allowed to exercise for six months or you go to jail. Like, oh God, I'd probably be a fucking complete basket case, right? And maybe I would have full on ADHD. Maybe I wouldn't be able to concentrate on anything. My brain would be bouncing all over the place. Like how much of it is a biological requirement that your body has to release energy? Speaker 1 So I think you can, I would expand that out even further than that because physical activity is a core requirement of our biology and Physiology, right? There's a there's a nice quote by Inigo Summon on Milan, who's a, you know, well known exercise physiologist who says that physical activity is baked into our evolutionary development, so much so that now we've had to invent exercise in order to like like to prevent what happens when we don't move. So it's the lack of movement is a disease causing pro aging like situation. Speaker 2 So to stop you there, what if I mean, or do they when they treat kids with ADHD, do they take that into consideration? Speaker 1 So as I'm not an ADHD researcher so I genuinely don't know. Speaker 2 I would think that before you would give someone a stimulant, maybe track and field. You know what I mean? Yeah. And maybe play badminton, do something where you've got to run around where you like, oh boy, I can focus now. Speaker 1 I think, I think that that's again, I would say that that's needed for all kids regardless of any potential diagnosis. So of course we need, I think that should be taken into consideration. Whether that's going to be enough for every kid, you know, hard to say. But we know that all humans require significant amounts of physical activity just for their biology to work properly, right? So certainly if that's not being taken into account or it's not available or it's not encouraged, there are a whole host of conditions where that's going to become a problem. Speaker 2 Well, it just only makes sense, right? And we mean, this has been talked about forever. The Stoics used to talk about it. This is quieting the mind. I mean, samurais just talk about it like that. Physical activity, just what you know, one of the main benefits the Chinese used for Kung Fu thousands of years ago, quieting the mind and the propensity that we have in the society this direction of almost immediately prescribing a medication for something when it seems like what you're what you're doing is you're dulling A biological requirement you're you're dulling the impact of this biological requirement that you're not needing. Why wouldn't we prescribe exercise 1st and then think about those things like for instance, like hormone replacement. If you have a good doctor at an ethical Dr. that is working with someone and they they find out you have low testosterone, one of the first things they do is adjust your diet. They say, well, you have so much food in your diet that causes inflammation. You have a very high rate of complex carbohydrates. You have a a lot of sugar in your diet. You drink too much alcohol, you smoke cigarettes. Let's remove those things first and then let's see what happens. And then you increase your protein and you start drinking water and you go, oh look, your hormone levels are going up naturally. Well, because you're a fucking poisoning yourself, right? So wouldn't you? I mean, why don't they prescribe exercise for kids? Other than the fact you can't make money off of it, Wouldn't it be a good idea? Speaker 1 So I think that all kids should absolutely get, you know, several hours ideally of movement and physical activity of different kinds every day. Part of the problem, it's not that scientists or doctors don't think that's that's important right now. The systems that we have make it very difficult for those things to be, to be put in place, right. So making sure that every kid has the time and the resources to be able to exercise and like the, the right kind of people so that they know what they're doing and they're, they're supervised. And you know, it's the same with say with testosterone replacement, if your, if your testosterone is low, like most, right? The the primary cause or one of the most common cause of, of low testosterone in men is, right. That combination of metabolic disease, being sedentary, poor quality diet, like we know that. But creating the systems that allow people to change those things and then supporting them to do that is really hard. Nobody, nobody has solved the behaviour change problem, right? If we think about, if we think about the modern environment and we think about what that drives us to do and not do, but we not, we have all this information, right. We know how to prevent these diseases, we know how to reverse many of them. And a lot of it is driven by lifestyle of the environment. But supporting people to change those behaviours and make sure they have the resources and time to do it, that's really hard. Like nobody solved that problem yet. Speaker 2 Boy, that seems like a problem that's easy to solve. It's just based on personal responsibility. Speaker 1 No, but it's not. Speaker 2 But if you can tell someone this is your requirement for the day, I want you to run one mile but I want you to do 100 push ups and 100 sit ups and write it down. Speaker 1 But how are you so first of all? Speaker 2 But you're saying something. He's saying it like it's impossible. I'm not saying very difficult. Speaker 1 I'm not saying it's, I'm not saying it's impossible. I think that those of us for whom this has become a part of our personality and our and our lives, like like you and me, of course it's been like, of course you just do that. Like you just go for the run, you do the 100 push ups. But for people who like have never had anything like this and it's never been a part of their environment, it's never been a part of who they are changing that. It actually requires a ton of work and coaching. And it's actually, it's actually really difficult when I when I say. Speaker 2 It's difficult, but it's totally doable physically. It's not like I'm asking to breathe underwater like people have done it. And you can draw inspiration from like my friend Jelly Roll or, you know, Jelly Roll the musician. Yeah, Jelly Roll was £500 and he's lost 300 lbs. And he did it with no Ozempic, no GLP ones. He just started walking and started cutting sugar out of his diet. And slowly, but sure, not even slowly, over the course of just a couple of years, he shrunk to like a normal sized human. It's fucking amazing. But he drew inspiration from a lot of other people. You know, one of them he's he's good friends with my good friend Cam Haynes, who's a ultra marathon runner and endurance athlete. And so, you know, he's taking him on runs and worked out with them and helped him and just watching YouTube videos and just, all he started doing was just walking, you know, where he couldn't walk up hills and he would just walk around his block and walk up the hill when he didn't want to do it. And he did it. It's like it's not it, you can do it, you just have to start doing it. And I think the starting doing it is the most difficult. I don't think it's difficult to do it once you gather momentum because there's a, there's a thing that happens with people when they start doing something, they get excited and then they look forward to doing it again. As long as you don't like, you don't take a guy who's 500 lbs and say today we're going to do 100 push ups, 100 sit ups, we're going to do kettle bells and then we're going to do laps around the the block. You can't do it. It's not possible, but you could just go for a walk and then tomorrow we're going to go for a walk a little bit further and then in two weeks we're going to double that walk. And then in three weeks we know we're going to incorporate some light body weight squats and all on the way. We're going to adjust your diet and then write these things down like this isn't it's not impossible. So it's just they need motivation. Speaker 1 So I, I agree is it's not impossible, but you know, I've worked with several digital health companies who are working in the behavior change space and people don't need more information. Like they know that they need to, to walk more and they know that they could eat better and they know that they could sleep better, right? But the, the process of trying to first of all understand, like, how should I do that? What should I do that when you know, when, when should I do that? And then, right, some people may absolutely not have the time or the environment. Maybe they live somewhere where actually what they don't want to be walking around outside. Speaker 2 Right, right. Speaker 1 That's that's relatively common or they don't have a kitchen, right. So then how do you, how do you cook food? Like how do you navigate that, that food environment? So I agree, I completely agree with you. All of this is doable. It's just that different people are going to need different levels of support to do that initially, right? Gain that momentum. Understand. Understand how how that feels, how it changes them. And right now the majority of people don't have access to that, that kind of support. And I absolutely hope that that changes, right? The food environment changes so that it's much easier to change the way that you eat and that the built environment changes. So it's much easier to go out and, and have a walk and, and, and do a lot of that. So I think that we just have to consider that it's both, right? There's, there's an individual component, right? But there's also like a societal component where we have to make this as easy for people as possible and sort of like build it into their lives, such as they are. Speaker 2 OK, so let's consider the societal aspect of it. Let's consider the like, how would you implement something like let's let's imagine that you get appointed to some committee that's in charge of trying, trying to facilitate this growth and improvement in people. What would you do? Speaker 1 So I think you need a few, a few different parts to it. 1 great part would be to say through, you know, if you could dramatically improve quality and access of like education at all levels and make physical activity just be a regular part of that that has been slowly removed from many educational curriculums around the world over time, right. So bring some of that back and it just becomes part of day-to-day life. And then you would also teach people the skills involved in some of these, these other things. So like teach, teach people how, how to cook and, and how to do that within the bounds of what they have access to their, you know, cultural preferences, dietary preferences, you know, financial, you know, financial abilities, that kind of stuff. Speaker 2 Right, that should be a part of a school curriculum. Speaker 1 Yeah, absolutely. Just like you should teach kids about taxes and all these all these other things. And so I think if you start early on and you do this with sort of curiosity and, and skill building, then you release people out into the, you know, that, that, that I think that's, that's the place to start. Because when you get out into the real world and you're working three jobs and you live somewhere where you don't want to go for a walk outside and like, you can barely get 6 hours of sleep every night. And you know, you've got three kids that you're trying to look after saying, oh, hey, you should do 100 push ups every day. But that's not going to happen. Like other things are going to happen that are more important. So, so I think there's that part, maybe the, the skill building part, then it's thinking about like how people have opportunities to do those things. And then I would think about, you know, access to high quality, you know, healthcare, psychological care, like these things that some sometimes people need help that they can't get access to or it's expensive or whatever. So I think giving more of that so that they get support when they need it is definitely would definitely help as well. Speaker 2 I think 1 great way would be to devise a website make like maybe like even a government website where you put in like your body weight. When was your last physical activity? What this, that the other thing, all the what's your diet? And then they implement a program and you could follow online with a bunch of other people that are doing the same thing and post your results. Yeah. So you have a community aspect to it. You have a dedicated program that you can follow so you don't have to think about, oh, I don't want to do that. I don't want to do this. It'll just tell you just do this. Just do this. Oh, you weigh 400 lbs. You're 39 years old. You haven't worked out in 10 years. OK, here's here's day one. Yeah. And follow along post your weight, post you what you're eating. I mean that I mean, and with AII mean that's one of the good things about an LLM, right? With AI, you could ask it to formulate adjustments and you could say, OK, what nutrients should I be consuming? What, how much protein do I actually need? How much, how many calories do I need? How many calories are in this and that? And you know how, what is how much protein do I get from, you know, 20 ounces of broccoli or whatever the fuck it is? You know what I mean? Speaker 1 Yeah, so when you look at some of the most successful trials of behaviour change and most of them are based around weight loss studies, right? That's that's a very typical way to do it. When you see when you want somebody to change their behaviour and feel feel good about it, one of the sort of constructs is self determination theory. You've probably heard of, right. Humans need three things, autonomy, competence and relatedness. So autonomy is the like I am in charge of my life and I'm in charge of my decisions. So what are the things that I want to work on today where I have some choice there? Competence, like how do I help somebody feel like they know what they're doing? Like a lot of the hurdles with exercise or diet is like, I don't know what I'm doing. And like this guy says that I need to do sprints and this guy says I need to lift weights and this guy says I need to do X amounts of zone 2. But I like, what does that even mean? Like like, do I even know what I'm supposed to do? Like, so how do you build competence in people? And then relatedness, That's the point that that you were making, right? You have a group like you support each other. Maybe you do stuff, you do stuff together. So one of the most successful weight loss trials of all time was called the broad study. And one of the things they did so they they lost a lot of weight and they kept it off with. And so most weight loss studies people regain afterwards is they they met several times a week. They did like potlucks group activities, like they helped each other community, yes, community. The one downside of that is that there are there were, there was, there was an app, I can't remember the name of it, that was that tried to build that for exercise. So like you'd have these buddies and they'd be your accountability buddies. But what happened was that when people started to slip, they left the platform much faster because they were like, I don't want my buddies to know that I'm not doing what they are supposed to be helping me do. So you kind of have to like build in multiple buffers and different ways to help people depending on what it is that motivates them or not. Speaker 2 I mean, we have public education, right? We have universities, we have public high schools and middle schools. Why don't we have public gyms? I don't. I mean, how much money would it cost to have community gym set up where you don't have to have money to join, where it's paid for by your taxes? You're not talking about something that's out outside of, you know, like the financially they wouldn't be feasible. Yeah, it's not that hard to do. Speaker 1 So I think that was the, I don't know what the financial model is now, but that was the the idea of like the YMCA's, right, Right, Right. Yeah. So like it becomes a community focus point like, and my wife grew up in North Carolina. It's like she talks about how they were down the YMCA all the time, like playing basketball. Speaker 2 I used to have a YMCA when I lived in Boston that I used to go to. It's really cheap. They had weights, they had a track, they had all, they had a swimming pool, they had all sorts of stuff. It was way cheaper than a regular gym and they had classes you could take. Speaker 1 Yeah, and there was something very similar close to where I grew up in the UK, just like for a couple of pounds you go do a some kind of martial arts class or something. Yeah. Speaker 2 I had that too. Does Austin even have a YMCA? Speaker 1 Yeah, definitely. Oh yeah, there's one. There's like a big one downtown. I've driven past it once, like big glass front, like AI mean. I don't know what it costs. Speaker 2 How much does it cost to get into the YMCA in Austin? Let's find that out. I mean, that should be paid for by taxes. Yeah. Why? I mean, if we pay for all this other shit that we don't need, why don't why don't you know? Speaker 1 When when a big hurdle is accessibility and. Speaker 2 One year new Progress Pack joined today. How much $125.00 value for a year? Is that what it says? How much does it cost? Speaker 1 Doesn't say how much it cost. Speaker 2 What does it cost join today? How much should I click on? Speaker 3 Also, the secret of most memberships for gyms, they don't list their prices. Speaker 2 On yeah but it's some YMCA click on join join today they. Speaker 3 Want you to come in and say hi so they can talk to you. Speaker 2 Oh, is that what it is? Speaker 3 Every Yeah, that's how everyone works. It's probably cheaper than most. Speaker 2 Well, why don't you put it into perplexity or something like that? Say what is How much does it cost to join a YMCA? Here we go. Let's guess how much you think it cost. 20 bucks a month. Speaker 1 50 Yeah, I think it can't be much more than a Planet Fitness, right Or else. Speaker 2 Planet Fitness is pretty cheap, but the thing about Planet Fitness is they kind of the a lot of these big gyms, not just singling out Planet Fit is they kind of hope that you don't show up. Speaker 1 Oh yeah, yeah, that's the yeah. Speaker 2 You're generally looking at 40 to $80.00 per month depending on age and household type. That's not too bad. Speaker 1 Yeah, but for some people, that's that's, that's a lot of money, right? Speaker 2 40 bucks a. Speaker 1 Month, yeah, like that's a good chunk of their food bill. So I there there should be some slightly scale where this becomes very, very heavily subsidized. Speaker 2 Yeah, but or free. Speaker 1 Yeah, Yeah, ideally. Speaker 2 I mean, why wouldn't it be free? Speaker 1 Yeah, I think it should be. Speaker 2 And then homeless people go in there and shower there. Speaker 1 Are, well, I mean, I'm OK with that team. Speaker 2 Depends on who they are. Speaker 1 I mean if they shout out. Speaker 2 OK with some of them you know fucking crazy people shit in that Sup in the in the shower Blue Cross Blue shield ba ba ba ba ba. Many health insurance plans offer gym membership through reimbursements, discounts, or programs like Active Fit or Global Fit. Benefits can include 20 to $400.00 annual reimbursements, so. Speaker 3 Some people can use their health insurance to get some of that fee covered. Speaker 2 OK, well, that's nice. But The thing is, again, it's just like Planet Fitness or any of these places. The The thing is like, they want to recruit you and then you go and you're like OK, and then you never go. Speaker 1 Again, Yeah, yeah, yeah, we will. But we genuinely want people to go like, that's right. That's the whole idea. Speaker 2 Well, The thing is like, there's one thing like for someone, and I've taken friends to gyms before that don't workout and they're like, what do I do? They have no idea what to do. Yeah, classes. Yeah, classes is what should be. Speaker 1 Absolutely class, learn new skill, move, make a friend. Like so much amazing stuff. Speaker 2 Happens. Yeah, yeah, and and they should have multiple different classes available. Yeah, at the same time, right. There should be a class for people that have done nothing like. OK, these are dumbbells. Yeah, this is you pick up a light one. I'm going to show you how to do a shoulder press. And then it should be for, you know, more advanced people, intermediate people or something. Speaker 1 And a whole, whole range of different skills. Yoga, Zumba, Pilates, Tai chi Slightly. Speaker 3 Different not dumbbell weights but in Austin they have a bunch of public free gym equipment in different. Speaker 2 Parts, playgrounds and parks. Yeah, that stuff's great. Well, in New York City has a whole look at these guys. Look at staring at each other talking shit. Speaker 1 I think one of the problems is that, well, first of all, like a lot of people might just like look at that and be like, what do I do? What do I do with that? And then the second is that a lot of what we see around fitness and movement is kind of the extremes, right? They're idolized professional athletes like this is what the best of the best do. And we often we internalize this idea that that's what we need to do. And if we're not doing that, then we're not doing anything. Whereas all the data suggests that literally any type of movement above what you're doing right now is beneficial. Cardiovascular health, cognitive health, dementia. So I think some of it is just like letting people know and having people understand that it doesn't take that much to move the needle. And then when they start to do a little bit right, you, you get get a bit of a bug. Maybe you enjoy it, you find the thing that you enjoy, you do more of it. And so that that's part of it too, like having people understand that it doesn't take that much to really start, you know, having, having an impact. Speaker 2 Yeah. And it's also for a lot of people, this is a society that really emphasizes quick fixes on things. And it's not a quick thing. It's you have to trust in a process. And so that has to sort of be, that has to be people have to be educated to that. It has to be taught to you like this is a process and you're on a process. You should be very excited about being on this process. It's going to be weird because it's going to take a long time for you to see any results. But that long time, like in that, in that time period, you will eventually see results and then you'll be excited. You'll feel better, you'll have more energy. It'll help every aspect of your life. You just got to do it. Speaker 1 One of the, one of the things that I like when I talk about movement in particular or exercise and say cognitive function is that you will start to see benefits relatively quickly. So if you go and do a six second Max Sprint a couple of times, right and there were studies that show this, you will acutely like immediately see an improvement in cognitive function. But above flow to the brain, you've created arousal, which is really important for focus and attention. If you, you know, go out, go for a walk outside, right? You will sleep better that night, So you'll feel better the next day. And so yes, you're absolutely right that this is a lifelong thing, right? You can't just do it for a couple of months and then hope that it's going to translate to benefits for decades to come. But you can see immediate benefits if you start to do some of the stuff and you can, and you can feel it very quickly. So I think that that's that's going to be important because not everybody is going to is going to feel in the position to invest in their future selves, right. So if if you start to see benefits straight away, you're more likely to keep going with it. Speaker 2 OK, so that's for people where we were just, I mean, I'm glad we covered it, but we're essentially talking about people that don't know what to do. For people who do know what to do, you said you work with a lot of Formula One athletes and what do you do for like what is Formula One is fascinating to me. I've been to the the Coda racetrack. We're actually putting up a studio. We're gonna have a studio at Code. We're gonna have a second studio at the racetrack. And the idea is to take people around the racetrack. I think it would be like stimulate their mind and then come in and do a podcast, be a lot of fun. Yeah, right. It'd be like, you'd be like racing like your mind. You'd be like woo. That is an incredible sport where it's fractions of a second, split second decisions. Your ability to react has to be like incredibly fast. Like, have you ever seen the thing where they drop things? Lewis Hamilton is like better at anybody than anybody else. He's just fucking intense. What do you do with them? So you already have people that are primed, right? They're the best in the world, but they are constantly looking for an additional edge. What are you doing for them? Speaker 1 Yeah. So there's a, a, a few things there. My work with Formula One drivers happens mainly through a company called Hints Performance was founded by Aki Hintsa. HINTSA, named after Akihintsa, who was a Finnish orthopaedic surgeon. He worked with Harley Gabra, Selassie, with Mika Hakkinen. He was two time Formula One world champion and then now the sort of like a big sports enterprise. And I'm the head head scientist for motorsport. So that's all and multiple categories from like karting and kids up to up to Formula One. We work with several Formula One drivers and we provide coaching and medical services. Each driver or most of the drivers have a coach, right? So like, you know, when you watch Formula One, there's like somebody holding the umbrella, holding the helmet, right? That's, that's usually, well, that's often one of our coaches. They're usually a strength and conditioning specialist. So they might be a physio or a nutritionist, like they, they have a ton of, you know, really high level skills and they're there every day, right? They do the sleep, they do the training, like they're travelling with them the whole time. They sort of can manage as much of their, of their life as possible. And when you're thinking about that level of, of skill, the, the stimulus part has has taken care of itself, right? One of the reasons why these guys are so good is because it's all they've done every day for two plus decades, 4 decades if you're, if you're Lewis Hamilton or close to that. So, and that's slowly building these skills, first in karting, then in these different formula categories, Formula 3, Formula two up into up into Formula One. And so the kinds of things that we might work on. And so like I'm helping the coaches, working with the drivers. We have like a huge team, you know, Doctor Who's who works with a bunch of Olympic athletes as well. And so it's, it's a combination of are there any individual performance limiters? So we might do some blood tests, look at nutrient status and various other things, you know, make sure they're really on top of that with their with their diets. But then in that kind of world, and like, I'm sure you experienced this yourself, everybody's got a thing for you to try or a thing for you to do, right? Like you're constantly being bombarded with the latest, greatest technology and like this guy wants to sell you this thing. So a lot of what we do is like, be really careful about the things that get added and maybe even take like take stuff away if we need to. Like, what are we, what are we trying to work on? What are we trying to build? What does this one driver need? Because they're all, they're all very different. They need a difference, you know, they have different diets, they have different training programs, they have different warm up strategies for when they get in the car. And so a lot of what we end up doing is focusing on on the other side, right? So if you stimulate your brain, it adapts when you rest and recover afterwards. So because they're essentially jet lagged nine months of the year rather than a different country every every week, that's a. Speaker 2 Factor. Yeah, that's a huge, huge. Speaker 1 Factor and like on top of like every race weekend, they've got to go meet sponsors, they've got to do media days, right? They're constantly moving. So it's what can we do to maintain their level of performance throughout the season. And this is something that the coaches do a ton of work in, like how can we, what kind of exercise and how can we do targeted training to like maintain performance throughout the throughout the year. And then the other part is how can we get as much recovery as possible? Because if we want them to adapt to all the work they're doing and come back each weekend at the top of the game or as close as possible, we need to get them to rest and recover and come back and do it again. So often we're not focusing on the stimulus part. We might be in driver training, We might be thinking about how can we develop cognitive skills and these kinds of things and these driver physical skills in, in Formula One. Often it's how can we get these guys to recover better? How can we get these guys to sleep better? And then that, that might be technology, but it might also be, you know, just like how can we nail the basics again and again and again, make sure they're getting enough time in bed, right? Especially when you're travelling a bunch that gets, that gets really difficult. So we're often focused on the on the recovery side and how we track, like how do we collect those data? How do we know when something starting to slip and get on top of it early? That's the kind of stuff we tend to focus on. Speaker 2 So let's talk about the jet lag aspect. What are the strategies for mitigating jet lag? And like, how do you, like, let's say if they fly in for a race, like if they're going from Europe to the United States and they have to race, how many days in advance do they arrive? And how do they shift their circadian rhythm and eliminate jet lag? What are the strategies? Speaker 1 Yeah, there's the, the, the time for them, like the, the number of days they come before the race will will depend on how long it was since the last race plus what other things they've got going on. But though it's often like two or three days, right, They'll they'll try and get it get come in the beginning of the week at least like Monday, Tuesday, if the race is then going to be on Sunday. And then as much as possible, you might start to try and shift things earlier. So shift your light exposure so that it aligns more closely with your destination. A couple of days before you travel, shift your sleep if you can shift exercise and caffeine timing again, because those things shift circadian rhythm so that so you can kind of get closer to to what what you're going to do when you land. And so those are those are the probably the primary tools is exercise, light caffeine use some of them use melatonin. You can also change when you eat. So like food timing is a zeitgeber. It's a fancy word for like time giver, like helps to drive circadian rhythm. So often when you're when you're flying, they'll give you a meal that's happening like in the middle of the night in the time that you're going to land right. So often you might try and avoid eating while flying and then have your next meal in time with like a normal meal timing when you land. Speaker 2 I've heard that one of the things to help jet lags just eliminate meals when you're flying, period. There's something about eating even if it doesn't have anything to do with the the time. Like say if you're flying from Los Angeles to New York. One way to eliminate jet lag they say is just to not eat on the flight. So 6 hour flight don't eat at all. Speaker 1 Usually, I think most of that is to do with circadian, circadian timing because you're usually flying at a time when you wouldn't normally eat or like you're often like they give you dinner at like 9:00 PM or it's even midnight, right. So if you see. Speaker 2 But is that all it is? Because but ways explained to me is that just, there's something about your body processing food when you're flying that actually exacerbates jet lag. Speaker 1 So I can't think of a, you know, does that make sense other than the fact that I mean, you're obviously, you know, sat still for long periods of time, which might not normally happen at that time of day as well. I think the the majority of it in terms, but certainly in terms of jet lag plans is thinking about the timing of meals relative to skating rhythm because you normally, you know, break your first fastest certain time of day, have dinner at a certain time of day. So I think most of it is related to circadian timing. Speaker 2 OK, what about rigorous exercise? Because one of my strategies, like say if I have to fly to London or something like that and I want to avoid jet lag, I immediately go to the gym. That's the first thing I do. I put my stuff in the hotel room. I go right down to the gym. No negotiation whatsoever. And I get in at least an hour. Yeah, I have to. Speaker 1 That's a, that's a great way, that's a great way to, to, to help to offset some of the jet lag because you, you start to tell your body or hey, like, even though it's whatever midnight in Austin, right? This is the time when I want to be awake. So it starts to advance the circadian phase. So exercise, some people like to do cold exposure, right? It does a similar thing, right? Increases adrenaline, increases heart rate, increases arousal, can do it with light, can do it with caffeine. And so like some combination of those things can definitely help. Speaker 2 OK. So there's the sleep, adjusting the sleep, there's the light exposure, there's exercise and food. Is there anything else? Like what? What kind of supplementation is effective to mitigate that? Speaker 1 Yeah. So they might use, they might use melatonin. One of the, one of the issues that we have, it's not an issue it, it makes perfect sense is that the, the supplements that we use with the drivers have to be third party tested, right, NSF for sports certified and false informed sports certified. So some of the things that we might like to try. Speaker 2 Is that because the drivers get tested? Speaker 1 Because the drivers get tested. Speaker 2 And what do they ban? What's banned? Speaker 1 Everything is the same as why it's like all the all the water, drug, drugs, it's the same. They're underwater regulations, so. Speaker 2 Are they allowed to use peptides? Speaker 1 It's, it's, it's a grey area in general. I don't believe, I don't believe anybody does. And we certainly don't recommend recommend it for for that reason because we just don't know what's in there. Speaker 2 Are they tested for peptides? Speaker 1 So they're not tested for peptides, but well, that's, you know, it depends on whether it's actually a peptide that has good high quality evidence in humans. Speaker 2 Well, there's also you should get them from a real good compounding pharmacy. Make sure you're getting it from a quality source, which is the real problem with peptides today is that since they're not regulated, there's a lot of Gray market. There's a lot of real, you know, bullshit corporations that are selling you stuff that's nonsense and even things that are tainted. Speaker 1 So, yeah, so, so, so the main thing that you're you're worried about is contamination. Like what else have they put in there? Right, right. To make it to to to get. Speaker 2 Better. Same thing as supplements. Speaker 1 Yeah, same thing as supplements, but in reality, like there aren't many peptides where I'm like where I would say, or actually I couldn't think of any where I'm like this will have a definite benefit based on high quality studies in humans, right? Those studies just don't exist. And so until we get to that point, plus the, the sort of like the, the, the grey area of the sort of legality of it, we, we tend to focus on, you know, the real, I mean, it's the basics, but we know that they work. Speaker 2 But there are peptides that have shown to increase sleep and increase REM sleep. Speaker 1 In humans. Speaker 2 Like humans, boy, I wish I could tell you because they they talked about it, but I never tried it. I know Tom Segura's on it. See if we can find what it is. Jamie. It's boy. It's fucking with my head. Is that what it is? I'm asking. No Delta. Speaker 3 Sleep inducing peptide. Speaker 1 I like, I want to see the randomized controlled trial I have to. I'd like I can't. I couldn't recommend it unless I know that it's third party tested, it's legal, and there's a high quality trial in humans like all those things have to. Speaker 2 Align the high quality the problem with high quality studies is they take time and money yeah and these aren't FDA approved so you're not going to get those things but that doesn't mean they don't work yes this is the problem is that like you could try it and then if you show benefit like. Speaker 1 When that in that setting I can't try it. Speaker 2 You can't, no, well, you can't because of Formula One drivers and all that stuff. But yeah, so with the the way drug free sport works, which is the governing body of the UFC drug testing this they they don't allow anything unfortunately. But there are studies that show the BPC 157 includes increases tissue recovery. Speaker 1 And helps you heal from 9 humans. Speaker 2 True, but there's look the same thing with the COVID vaccine. They weren't tested in humans either before they started trying them. Speaker 1 I there were some there was for the the first wave of COVID-19 vaccines. There were some some pretty good quality trials in humans. Speaker 2 Right. But all it showed is that it showed an antibody. It didn't show that. Speaker 1 It Oh no, that against hospitalizations and death in in the in the in the first waves. Speaker 2 We could argue about that because it's very sketchy, OK, it's very sketchy data that has been disproven. Speaker 1 I think that those, I, I think those first waves were high quality, but the only thing I think we've seen. Speaker 2 Say that increased decreased hospitalization and death. It was stopping transmission and infection, which was just a lie. Speaker 1 So the. Speaker 2 That's what they claimed that. So it's all sketchy because it was based on profit. The whole thing is weird. It's a weird one. It's a weird one. I. Speaker 1 Can't. I can't, Yeah, I can't talk about my it's. Speaker 2 Not a good example, yeah, yeah. But with there's plenty of anecdotal evidence, especially with professional athletes with BB, TC157 and TB500, particularly for tissue injuries, for recovering quicker from tissue injuries. Speaker 1 So I know, I know there's anecdote. I know that people say it benefits them in the environments that I operate in, that's not enough. Speaker 2 I understand you're an actual doctor. Doctor Tommy Wood. He's legit. I'm just a dork. I'm allowed to just say try it. Fuck it, but so with drug free support like with the UFC they're they use thorn supplements with the UFC recommends which are very good third party tested. But so you have to find whether it's pure encapsulations or some legitimate well proven established company that provides you with third party tested supplements. What supplements have been shown like for I would have let's stick with Formula One drivers. Reaction time is critical. Your your ability to function at a very high cognitive state, right? You're you're thinking constantly. You're always calculating and movements. What supplements are these guys taking that benefit them? Speaker 1 So there when you think about complex skill performance and there's a, there's like a whole chapter on this in the book, the the most important driver is arousal, right? How aroused is your Physiology? And are you set up with the right level of sympathetic activation, noradrenaline, adrenaline, cortisol to kind of get the the the best level of performance? Speaker 2 And don't want any one of those overwhelm the other ones. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, exactly. So the, the the curve is bell shaped, right? It's the Yerkes Dodson curve, named after a couple of guys who actually did studies in mice that then translated actually surprisingly well over to humans. And So what it says is that if you're sort of under aroused, you're kind of disengaged, a bit of lethargic, right? You're not really going to perform well. If you're over aroused, you're sweaty, anxious, right? Again, you're not going to be able to sort of pay attention to the task. So there's this sweet spot at the top of the curve. You're capable of flow states, clutch states, which is where you can perform at your best, but it's still like it's hard work. And So what you're trying to do is get the guys to the top of that curve. And this for many involves some element of routine, right? Knowing that I've done the thing that I know that's going to make me feel good. And so it's a combination often of the things that we've already mentioned, they might use some warm up sprints, they might use music, they might use bright light, they might use breath work, they might use cold. Certainly if it if it's going to be a hot race they might do some pre pre cooling to bring down cool temperature that improves endurance. Speaker 2 Do they like cold plunges to Formula One days? Yeah. Speaker 1 Yeah, so some of them are some of them have a like a cold plunge or you know, you can you can fill a wheelie bin with water and ice and jump in that. It doesn't need to be that cold actually. So for increasing endurance performance like 20 minutes at around 20°C or like 60 ish Fahrenheit, that significantly improves like endurance. Speaker 2 Benefit to 20 minutes at 60°F versus 3 minutes at 34°. Speaker 1 So the, the problem is that when you get too cold, you can actually decrease cognitive performance. So there's a, there's a fine line when it's really cold that what you want to do is you want to decrease core temperature without negatively affecting cognitive function. And so that's easier to manage slightly less cold temperatures because just like if you did really, really exhaustive exercise, right, you go out. And so I was a rower in college, so like a 2K test on a row machine, like after that, my brain doesn't work for like hours after. And so like very, you know, very cold ice baths for several minutes for some people that can decrease cognitive function so you, you can find a sweet spot. Speaker 2 That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense because my mind is very bad after brutal workouts. Yeah, yeah. Like if I, if I have a really hard workout and I come in and do a podcast, there's, there's a moment where I, it's just not firing. Speaker 1 Yeah. And that and that's perfect. And that's, that's, that's normal. We know that if you do very fatiguing exercise for a period of time, you experience a decline in. Speaker 2 But a light exercise stimulates. Speaker 1 Exactly. So like one of the best studied exercise modalities to improve cognitive function is literally just like a 20 minute jog, right? It's light jog. Exactly. But yours kind of warming everything up, you know, increasing sympathetic activation, increasing release of all those hormones you mentioned and that increases arousal that that improves cognitive performance. So they might be doing some of those things in the car, right, that they'll be differing types of caffeine use depending on sensitivity and and timing. Speaker 2 Are they taking it in pill form so that they could regulate it quickly or accurately rather? Speaker 1 Yeah. So some do sometimes pills, sometimes gels, some guys just like cappuccino, some might use like green tea because like the theanine in there might balance some of like the jitters that you can get with caffeine. Some, some people find creatine stimulating or mildly stimulating. So they might take creatine before they get in the car. Speaker 2 Well, there's been studies on creatine and cognitive performance that are really interesting. Speaker 1 Particularly in the setting of sleep deprivation. Yeah. And so when they're jet lagged like I think that that that one makes sense. There is some newer caffeine related compounds that if we can get them when they're third party tested, you know, some may try those. So thiacreen or teacreen and parazanthine, which is a a metabolite of caffeine. Some of they they may have some fewer of the like anxiety, promoting high blood pressure, high heart rate effects, but maintain some of the cognitive effects, especially in combination with caffeine. So you have a little bit less caffeine plus a bit of those. They're harder to get sort of third party tested and stuff, but and that some of the evidence is newer, but that that's looking sort of promising as another thing that that people might try. Speaker 2 You mentioned theanine, which is a nootropic. There's quite a few different ones that people enjoy. You know, beta choline. There's a bunch of different ones. Like do you do Formula One drivers? Do they supplement with that kind of thing? Speaker 1 So, so you think you'd like Alpha GPC? Like yeah, yeah. So like it's a choline type of choline. It's like as preferentially turned into astal choline and as I can is really important for like focusing attention. Some of that stuff isn't isn't regularly used like main, mainly because it's hard to get a third party tested. Source. Speaker 2 Is it really? Speaker 1 Yeah, like most of the things that you take that there probably isn't or that anybody would take that there might not be a an NSF for Sport certified version. There's very few companies that do that routinely for all their supplements. Speaker 2 God, you'd think that that would be really accessible because nootropics are so common now. Speaker 1 So, but so there's that plus there's the when we're working with different drivers, they each have very unique needs. So it's trying to, it's a combination of what do I think is really going to move the needle and not overcorrect. I think most coaches I've spoken to in Formula One have a story where their driver had three espresses before it got in the car and then he overcooked the first corner, right? So it's a really tricky balance of trying to make sure that they can systematically get in the zone to put one in the car without sort of pushing them too far over the over the other side. And so that's where supplements become trickier because it's very easy to down regulate if you've overcooked it through some of those physiological means where I can do some breath work or something to kind of calm myself down. But if I've like stuffed myself full of caffeine, it's it's going to be hard to like come back from that. And then you sort of step in the car and it could cause some issues. So we tend to focus on some of the physiological stuff and then maybe a little bit of supplementation because that seems to be the the sort of like best balance across those different needs. Speaker 2 Well, it seems like Formula One would be a great place to develop a framework for this because there's so much money involved. It's such a massive sport, and you would think that they would have that dialed in. Like you're 168 lbs, this is when you woke up. This is what you need right now. You need this much protein, this much this. Stop eating X amount of hours before the race. Speaker 1 So yes, we do a lot of that, but it's different for each guy and nobody wants to share what they've got. Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 1 Yeah, so like even, even like your, you know, your biggest rival is your teammate in many respects, right? Because you're that's the only guy you can go up against truly head to head because you're in the same car, right. So, yeah, you know, a lot of what we do, we have to we we have to silo within a driver. Like this is the stuff that works for this guy. And I can't use that to help this guy, right? That's one reason. That's one reason why share information, yeah. And that's one reason why Hints has been very successful as a company is because they've been. We're very good at walling this stuff off. Like we know what's good for this guy, we know what's good for this guy. And we we sort of leave those separate because different frameworks, different approaches might be needed. Speaker 2 Well, it's such an extreme example because any little deviation that you wouldn't normally feel in everyday life could be disastrous. Yeah. In a Formula One race, Yeah. Yeah. What about different things to stimulate cognitive function, like playing chess or doing is? Is there anything that those guys engage in specifically to improve the way they think? Speaker 1 Again, it depends a little from driver to driver. A lot of them like play some kind of video games which actually have have some interesting evidence to support them in terms of in terms of improving cognitive function. I think for them though, a lot of that is it's almost like relaxation, like when you drive a Formula One car for a living, like playing a video game isn't necessarily as challenging, right? And so a lot of it tends to be very car, car focus, where they get tons of time in the simulator, like during the season, they get a lot of time in the car. So there's nothing that like consistently would work or that that everybody does. I think a lot of where the cognitive training side comes from is during driver development, right? How can we get more sports specific or sports sport supporting cognitive challenges in younger drivers as they're developing? So we might use some cognitive training tools and some other things to try and support some of those development processes. Because by the time they're at the top, especially if you want to maintain it, that the main thing that you need to do is obviously maintain those driving skills which you'll get through like the day-to-day aspects of the job. Plus then it's really continually paying attention to sustained physical health, physical performance, especially because of the like arduous schedules and all that kind of stuff. So, so often again that they're focusing on the other areas because they know that will help them stay at a high level for longer. Speaker 2 So they're focused on recovery from all the unavoidable aspects that are going to mitigate your performance. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, exactly. So sleep, some of them use different meditation or breath work or other devices just to kind of help. Maybe you like gamify it slightly. We make it a slightly more enjoyable experience. It's easier to do, easier to switch off if you're doing things related sort of like vibration and that that, that kind of stuff. Speaker 2 You mean like pressure plates? Like those standing up. Speaker 1 Yeah, So like shaky place. No, there there's Turbo Sonic, there's a there's a chair that that's that some guys use. And I mean, this is used in a ton of different sports and like in other military groups as well, called the shift wave. Have you heard of? Speaker 2 This. Yeah, I have one. Yeah, yeah. Speaker 1 So some of the guys, some of the guys have a shift wave. It just kind of depends on what works well for them in terms of like allowing them to down regulate, allowing them to kind of sleep, sleep better. And again, we sort of often focus on the more sort of physiological, environmental side rather than, you know, trying to throw a bunch of supplements on it. Speaker 2 Well, it seems like that's a great place to study Formula One drivers, because you're dealing with these like fine lines. There's this tiny differential between success and failure. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. And the, one of the interesting things is that the sort of the, the real performance stuff is kind of siloed within the team. So then right, because that's related to performance in the car and that's sensitive information. So a lot of the time we're kind of thinking about and, and this actually across most sports, the the best predictor of performance is, is subjective well-being. How does the athlete feel? How and, and so like there are tons of studies even like coming out now, like you compare that to blood tests and HIV and all this other kind of stuff, how they feel, am I tired, am I achy? Do I feel alert? You know, all that kind of stuff that seems to predict performance really well. So how can we all and, and better some of those better than some of those other things. The best is a combination as much as possible, but so, so we do a lot of work aggregating data, but then really the rest of the time is how can I make sure this guy feels good every day, right? And feels confident when he gets in the car. And so then we have psychologists, There are big parts of that, plus like keeping an eye on their body and all that, you know, all those sort of things, sort of put them in the best spot possible when they get in. Speaker 2 The car? Do you coach them to avoid toxic relationships? Speaker 1 I'm not. I'm not sure if anybody's ever gotten into that for. Speaker 2 Fighters, it is like one of the number one predictors, poor success in a in a competition. I've I've seen it over and over again, Guys with horrible relationships, yeah, you know, whoever's fault it is both fault, both parties, whatever it is. But those are the ones like when they have like really bad relationships. Like there was this one guy that I know that was a really high performer, very good fighter, but he had this crazy girlfriend and she required so much, so much attention that it would drive her nuts when he was getting ready for a fight because he was spending all his time concentrating on the fight and it would peak literally the night before the fight. Like the relationship was so toxic. She would always start fights and all the coaches knew it. She would start fights after he weighed in because he was so locked in on the fight the next day that he wasn't paying attention to her. So she would storm form out of the hotel room and go down to the bar by herself and he would freak out and he would always wind up performing poorly. Speaker 1 I, at least I personally haven't seen the evidence of that in that in that world. I will say that. Speaker 2 Fighters are kind of crazy though. It's a, it's a, it's an interesting group to study because it's a very bizarre activity to begin with. You know, it's the way I describe it is high level problem solving with dire physical consequences. Speaker 1 Yeah. And although you could say that Formula One is, is similar in that respect, right? Speaker 2 Very similar. Speaker 1 There there were, there were certainly you know, a lot of drivers come into into the sport with is often driven by family relationships. So, so I think that that may may be an influence sometimes. Speaker 2 Overbearing parents or another one coaches. Speaker 1 Other overbearing, yeah, because they come in with this long history of right of like what got them there some. So maybe that affects some of them. I'm not sure. Speaker 2 What are the most challenging athletes? I assume you've dealt with a bunch of different athletes from various sports. What are the most challenging ones to deal with? Speaker 1 The, the one, I think the ones that I found most challenging are it's usually because they're pulled in so many different directions that it's, it becomes difficult for them to like really engage in, in the things that we know are going to is going to help them perform long term. And so as and like I have friends who work in the NBA, for instance, where I think this is amplified even more, right? You have teenage millionaires who can literally do whatever they want, right? But you have to like keep them on on task. And we see that in a lot of professional sports. And so it's that it's that kind of stuff is what's distracting them. What are the other things that they're doing that's stopping them from being able to engage in these processes? And so you, you can have like really good conversations and put together really good plans. And like in the moment they're really engaged and they're interested in right, the right, they want to do well, right. This is their job and they love it. But when other things start to come into play outside of that conversation, they don't engage with things, they don't do it. They don't see the the results they want. They get demotivated. But it's usually because like other things in their life, right, could be like the toxic relationships, but it tends to be other other distractors that they kind of pull, pull them away from that that sort of like core goal. Speaker 2 Unfortunately, success is a big one, right? Because the motivation to succeed in the 1st place is you want financial gain, you want recognition, you want all these things that you're chasing after, and then once you get them, now what? Yeah. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. And some, some, some people like maintain like really dead. They maintain dedication to the craft. Like this is the thing that I love and I want to do it every day. And by the longer you do it, the more you have to take care of like the little details, like early on in your career, you can train however you want, eat however you want. If you have a certain set of skills and training up to that point, you get, you'll, you'll do pretty well, but you want to, you want to sustain that for a very long period of time. It requires an increasing amount of dedication to the, to the other areas of your life to make sure that you can still do that. And I think sometimes people just aren't honest with themselves in terms of what they really want to do or what they're going to spend their time doing. So that that's the that's the most frustrating thing is when you sort of you, you hear one thing, but you see another thing because of like the other areas of life that are that are taking over. Speaker 2 So what do you do if you have an athlete, like, say, an NBA athlete, and you see all this talent, all this potential, but then you notice that they're getting pulled in all these different directions. Maybe they're just like spending money all the time and partying and hanging out with girls. And how do you get them back on track? Speaker 1 So I I don't do a ton of work in NBA when when I intersect with that, I'm generally advising on like the data portion rather than like the interacting with the with the human. So I don't have good tips, but luckily because I've I've never had to to deal with that because I'm as it's quite frustrating. Speaker 2 So what athletes do you deal with? Like what sports? Speaker 1 So Formula One is the is the one where I primarily am like face to face with athletes in in other professional sports. I'm like an advisor to the team that works with them on like a data health, nutrition. Speaker 2 Got it, got it, got it. And when you compare notes, what are the differences between like dealing with Formula One athletes versus dealing with like NFL or NBA or baseball? Speaker 1 A lot of the stuff comes down to differences in travel schedule and training and the ability to to capture data for instance. So data capture in Formula One is, is really hard because of the, the types of travel and where you don't get to aggregate across A-Team, whereas you're part of a big team, there's several people you can kind of work, but you work with and aggregate data across to kind of understand what's happening with, with individuals as well as like overall. But I think the Formula One is unique because it's so it's so individual in terms of each driver has their one specific team. And it's often very difficult to to capture some of the data that we might want to capture, like getting blood tests on guys who are in a plane every other day, right, really difficult. Whereas other places where they have a home base and this kind of stuff as usual, you might be be able to get it that better. So I think that's maybe one of the biggest differences is the travels, travel schedule and how easy or not it is to like capture and aggregate data. Speaker 2 When when you're working with these Formula One athletes, like how much are you changing the methods that you use like year to year? Speaker 1 It will depend on whether some, I mean, my job is to stay on top of the latest research, right? So what what's come out recently that we think will meaningfully move, move the needle in reality, I think this is the case in in the majority of professional sports that I've been, I've into interacted with the the main thing is getting the boring basics done consistently and like again and again and again, like we know that's foundational to sustain performance. And yeah, like the, the, some of the, the tools and technology for recovery and some of the supplements, especially if you're trying to address nutrient insufficiencies based on, you know, an adequate diet, which is also very common, right? Those things do make a bit do make a difference. But the, the main struggle, at least from the, the guys that, that I, you know, regularly see is having an environment and framework that allows them to keep doing that stuff like stay on top of a specific training program or stay consistent with a, you know, a certain sleep routine that allows them to, to sleep well. Those are the things that make the biggest difference. And so it's like that's where we tend to focus. And then, you know, maybe every year or so, we'll have a constantly improving our data capture and our data analysis. We're constantly, you know, trying to improve sort of like the support processes because we know that with the better, better support, we can make sure they're more likely to do the stuff that's going to make a big difference. And then maybe every sort of like year or two, there's a a new thing that comes in and we're like, Oh yeah, we're we're fairly confident this is low risk, high potential benefit. It's not going to take a time of their time, right. That's that's another thing is when I first, when I first walked into the paddock in in it was here in Austin. It was the first time I went to Formula One to like start working with these guys. I like I showed up and I'm like, I've got like I've got like 100 things that these guys are going to love. It's going to be really important. It's going to revolutionize everything. And then you speak to like a coach for the first time. They're like, we've got time for maybe one thing and you better be really confident that this thing is going to make a difference, right, or else you've wasted our time. So how do you decide? So a little bit of it is, of course it's going to be some trial and error and it does depend on but the. Speaker 2 Errors like consequences are huge. Speaker 1 Yeah, like, and you just, you just have to acknowledge that upfront. And the, the, the error is biggest when you're telling some guy to do something before he gets in the car, right? Because that's, that's, that's going to immediately have an effect. So there are ways to offset some of that, right? They have practice periods. And so it's like right now as a new generation of cars for this season, nobody's driven them before. They're getting more extended track time to practice, practice with them. So like that might be a time when you could try a new supplement or something before you get in the car because it's a low, it's a much lower risk setting. You're not racing. There's not 19 other guys or now 21 other guys trying to trying to get past you and then right. So that, so some of it is that right, Trial and error. You acknowledge that you, you just have to be really confident that you know what problem you're trying to solve and that it's an important problem, right? So I've, I've worked with coaches and their driver where like reaction time was a very specific thing, like off the line, we, we think we need X amount improvement. So then it's a combination of practice, maybe tinkering with some supplements, maybe tinkering with some of the arousal stuff that we talked about earlier. So you need to make sure it's an important problem. Then you need to think about like, what's the hierarchy of things that have the highest likelihood of benefit and the lowest risk, and then sort of work your way through it. And I realized that this is all kind of in the abstract because it just like really depends on the problem that's that's in front of you. Speaker 2 What about the psychology aspect of it? I mean, this is a very controversial aspect of mixed martial arts in particular because there's there's kind of two schools of thought. There's there's like, I have a good friend who's a coach that recently told me he's not working with any fighters anymore that need a mental coach. And I said why? And he's like, you just can't count on them. He goes, they're just too fragile. They need a mental coach. Because I wanted a motherfucker who just knows that this is what he's supposed to be doing and just go out and do it. Yeah, I'm like, boy, but that kind of limits your athletes, right? Like do you, do you think that there's benefit in mental coaching or do you think like to reach a championship level, there's an inherent mindset that you must have going into that and you can improve upon that. But if you do not have that mindset, you're not going to be successful. This is my friend's ID. I don't want to call him out because, you know, the athletes he worked with. Yeah. Yeah. But you know, he recently had a bad result with one of his athletes. He's like, I'm done. No, no more guys who need mental coaches. I want killers. Speaker 1 So I think that you're going to need some element of a mindset to get to that level to begin with, right? But we have psychologists on our team who work, work with the drivers regularly. Other drivers who aren't, you know, working with us bring in sports psychologists. Very do you? Speaker 2 Collaborate with these psychologists. Do you talk to them and compare notes? Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. So we have. Speaker 2 What are common issues? Speaker 1 The, I mean, again, it's just, it's so dependent on the, on the individual, but it, but it's also, but it's also very common across all athletes, right? So it's like overcoming failure or fear of failure or you'd, you maybe it's dealing with difficult relationships, which, which you know, for various reasons that they can experience. And then it's how you know, their inherent thought process is when that happens. So so we know that the most resilient athletes are those that tends to be self compassionate, right? So like, interesting. Yeah. Speaker 2 That's interesting, I would have thought the opposite. Speaker 1 Yeah. And so there's this idea, right? That right, You want killers? You want. Speaker 2 People hard on themselves. Speaker 1 These guys who are hard on themselves but for sustained and and so this is looking across like as broad as possible across sport. Those who are most most successful most often, of course, there's going to be there's going to be the the killer who's just like hard on himself and gets the job done of course right. But these elements of self compassion that include things like mindfulness, like thinking about the world and understanding it and about their place in it and common humanity, which is like treating themselves as they would treat other people and acknowledging the right. We all make mistakes and stuff always happens, but I can overcome this. I you know what this happened to me before. Like I've sucked, I've crashed, I've done something wrong and hey, I overcame it and you know, now I'm succeeding again. Those mental skills are most common amongst that the high level, high level athletes. So I'll give an example. This is not so. I don't know him, but like Roger Federer has a very famous quote, right? He gave it some like graduation address or something where he says that across his career, he only won 54% of his points on court, right? So that means that 46 of 46% of points he lost, right? So that means that every time he makes a mistake, every unforced error, he has to come back and be like, hey, dude, like you've got this. I know I can do this. And like, and that's the point that he's making in this address. And it's those kinds of mental skills that seem to be most important. So when you've had a history of beating yourself up and being hard on yourself, and that's kind of gotten you to that point, there will often be a stage where there's so much accumulated pressure or stress or failure that just working harder and being harder on yourself isn't going to get you past it. But athletes who are successful for a long period of time tend to have those other abilities to, like, think about the bigger picture, understand what they've ever come previously, treat themselves, you know, more like they would treat others. And they seem to be the ones who overcome failure and then continue to succeed. Speaker 2 I'm really into professional pool. I play pool and I follow a lot of professional pool players. And there's a trait amongst the elite pool players that's pretty consistent for the ones that are successful in win tournaments is the ability to let a bad shot go. Exactly because the guys who beat themselves up over bad shots, you see it, they slump in their chair, they start running their fingers through their hair. They fucking, they throw their head back, they take a beat, deep breath, and then they're carrying that with them when they go out to make a shot again. Yeah. And for a high level pool player, so there's performance scores and a really high TPA performance score is like I think the best in the world right now is Joshua Filler, who's this guy from Germany. And he's arguably, if not the best, one of the top two or three guys in the world. His performance score is about, I think it's like 850 out of 1000. So that means if he makes 1000 shots, he's going to make 850 of those shots, which is very elite. Yeah. So you got to think like even the best because they're playing on 4 inch pockets. But this guy never gets upset. Yeah. When he misses, he just sits down and he's got a dead look on his face. The Chinese type players are the best at it. I don't know how they coach them over there. So there's some of the best in the world. The Chinese type play Taipei players. So these guys from Taiwan, they have no expression when they miss a shot. They just go and sit down. Yeah, and maybe they'll smile, but they never get a upset. Whereas a lot of the American players, they get fucking pissed off. You see it, some of the European players do the same thing. And those guys, they fall off a Cliff. Yeah, their performance is elite. They'll make a couple of bad shots and then the match goes downhill and they wind up getting steamrolled. Speaker 1 Yeah. And and I think you can, there's other stuff going on. You can think about it in terms of that like arousal curve we talked about earlier, right as you get. Stressed and like worked up about a missed shot, you're pushing yourself further and further away from the level of arousal that requires for performance. Speaker 2 Yeah, right. And and dwelling on failure. Speaker 1 And then you're thinking about what happened previously rather than the shot that that comes next. Speaker 2 Well, that's one of the most important things about a shot, because even if your mechanics are good, if you think you're going to miss, you're going to miss. Yeah, it's weird. Yeah, it's a weird thing because you know what to do, you know how to do. But if you think, fuck, OK, I can't miss his shot, you're going to miss. Yeah, like 9 times out of 10. It's very weird. So it's a very mentally the game, a giant percentage of it once the skills are acquired, because most of them when they get to an elite level have all the skills. Yeah, it's a mental thing. It's ability to perform under pressure. Yeah, because it's fine motor skills and you know. Speaker 1 There's, I mean, across every different aspect of cognitive performance, well-being, there's you again and again you see that psychology drives Physiology with and drives performance like you can, you can measure these things as you think them, as they then change Physiology, which then alters how you perform. So, so I mean that this is a very, very long answer to your, to your question of like is, is like psychology and mental skills important? Absolutely. Because I think that's going to be foundational to whether you can even achieve those high levels of performance. And everybody needs help occasionally. And right, that's, that's perfectly, that's perfectly normal. And then, right, different people are going to need different tools and different skill sets. So like different psychologists are going to provide, you know, different things for them to do. So like, yes, that's always something that we have on hand as needed as part of the team, because that's going to be really important. Speaker 2 Yeah, the mind controls so much of what you do in life, even if you have skills. And that's something that elite performers either figure out or don't, right? They either never achieve their true potential because they keep tripping over themselves, or they go, OK, this is not helping me. It's only hurting me. I keep allowing myself to spiral into this same sort of mental state and I have to find a method. And so like when you talk with psychologists, what do they, what tools and what, what, what sort of strategies do they give these athletes to abandon negative thinking? Speaker 1 There were a few different ways to approach it. And again, like don't want to pretend I'm a psychologist, right? These are these are the we have other people with these skills for a reason. But I think a lot of what becomes important again is thinking about the causes of maybe maybe initially the causes of mistakes and then the, and the causes of stress and why that may or may not be beneficial in the way that you can, you can leverage it. So there's a lot of research on understanding that stress responses are there to divert resources to something that matters and something that either requires your attention or adaptation to it, right? So understanding that actually stress in the moment, in that kind of moment is a good thing and you want to you want to leverage it rather than be scared of it. So, and we know that people who are trained in this mindset. So this is work by Audiocrum at Stanford. Stress, the stress is enhancing mindset also like predicts how well Navy Seals do during training, like how much they sort of like appreciate that stress response is important. This is me rising to the occasion. Not only that you still get stressed where you still can measure stress hormones. That's that's still happens, but you release other things that help to also like counteract that and drive adaptation and it results in better decision making when when stressed. So like reframing some of these responses can can be important as well as then thinking about like after a mistake happened, you know, thinking about other examples of times when you did that and you overcame it. Or, you know, having having like these different parts of understanding what it is to be a human, even when you're performing at an elite level, maybe some of it is building in routines so that you feel confident in a given situation, right? Like these are the things that I do and when I do these things, I know I'm going to perform well. That can be a double edged sword for some people because, and I think this we see this a lot of this in the in the world of sort of like health optimization, we assume that we need to do all these things in order to perform well. And so then if those things don't happen, we think we won't perform well, right? So that's another way for us to get, get in our way, our own way. So, so you kind of have to balance that depending on on the individual and then some of it can be right in, in the moment, right? So you want those pool players and you're getting increasingly frustrated because you're not making your shots. It's almost impossible to think your way out of that, right? Your brain is too busy being dunked in adrenaline to like, make good decisions. So that that's where you might have tools like leveraging your Physiology, breath work, closing your eyes, visualization, those things sort of work from the bottom up to kind of help your mind get a grip and like get back in the game. So it's a whole bunch of different things depending on what you might need. Is it I need to regulate myself in the moment? Is it how do I set myself up for success through a series of and it could be like, what's my warm up? What's my, what am I thinking through? What am I visualizing before I perform? Or is it tools to kind of deal with the processes of of failure afterwards? Speaker 2 And I would also think that even just the knowledge that these high stress situations where you do encounter failure can produce a result inside the mind that can be beneficial if. Speaker 1 Harnessed, yes, yeah, exactly. And so one, one of the ways that this is this is taught to other people, right, not just athletes, is like, think about all the people who've performed under significant stress, right? This is what the human mind and human body is capable of, if only we allow it to to do to do that. Speaker 2 Right, right. That's what's important, right? Is like, I, I think inspiration is one of the most powerful fuels that we can use. And inspiration from other people's examples is one of the best versions of that. Yeah, because I think there was a young kid who recently broke the world record of the mile. Did you see that? Speaker 1 Oh yeah, yeah. What's saying? Sixteen 18340 Something 348? Speaker 2 Maybe. Yeah, think 348, which is nuts. Just nuts. We didn't think that people can get below 4 minutes before this 16 year old kid hits 348. And I immediately thought, wow, through the inspiration of this kid being able to do this, who's going to break 340 now, you know? Speaker 1 That that I was. I heard from somebody that in the run up to the race he was like, he hadn't raced a bunch recently. He this was. Speaker 2 Just. Speaker 1 This, this was just going to be like a just like going to be a run out. He was just like going to, you know, loosen his legs up, get back in the in the into the race. And so like in that situation, he's put no pressure on himself, right? All the all the brakes are off like whatever, he's got nothing to lose. And so like in that situation that you could like incredible performances. Speaker 2 And it's crazy because that's only the 11th fastest indoor mile. That's what it says here. I thought it was the fastest ever, but it's the fastest ever under 18. Speaker 1 Under 18 record, yeah. Speaker 2 So crazy that's so fast to run a mile. Speaker 1 Who? I mean, I'm not sure I could go that fast. Full stop. Ever. Like for any period of time, Yeah. Speaker 2 For like 20 feet, Yeah, exactly. I can't run that fast. It's kind of amazing, but I mean, this is one of the things we talk about all the time with mixed martial arts athletes in particular, is that today is such an amazing time for them because there's so much access to video. So you can watch all these performances by all these elite athletes. And then it raises that your personal standards because you're mirroring what these people are capable of doing. And in your head, you have a very high standard because you've seen it. And that that inspires people to become better. And so the athletes that we're seeing today, I, I say all the time that martial arts has evolved more in the last 30 years than it has in the last 30,000 years. And it's, it's true and it's, it's true just based on my own personal experience of seeing athletes from 1997 when I first started working with the UFC to 2026. It's a completely different standard. There's so much better, there's so much more elite. They have so much more balance. They have so much more balance in terms of their game is balanced, striking, grappling, wrestling, all of it together. It's it's amazing because they've they're walking on the foundation that was set by the athletes before them. So it's the mind recognizing what's possible. Speaker 1 Absolutely. Or not thinking that something is impossible, right? It's the opposite too, and maybe that's more of it, right? It's the same with Roger Bannister in the Four Minute Mile, right? As soon as he did it, everybody, not everybody, but lots of people started to do. Speaker 2 It well, and also the ignorance of youth, which is why young athletes are so damn good. So yeah. Speaker 1 Because they don't. They don't worry about their own limitations. Speaker 2 And they also don't have mortgages, they don't have wives, they don't have kids, they don't have bills. Speaker 1 But this is this is also The thing is right. If we think about these traits that we we'd maybe like to carry over that that help us perform or, you know, maintain performance for long periods of time later in life. Like some of that curiosity, not worrying about like these burdens, continuously continuing to engage in these things that challenge ourselves that kids just like readily do right. The the brain is exploring and trying to learn. I think we need more of that as adults. But when you think about the the standard being set or thinking that things aren't impossible. There's there's two parts that one, yes, that that that that's a huge aspect of achieving higher and higher levels of athletic performance. But for for many of us like US regular people, when you spend a lot of time seeing other people performing so much better than you, it has the IT can have the opposite effect, right? I think this is something that we see on on social media. There's some really interesting there's some really interesting studies on social rank, right. So we are always trying to see where we rank in the world compared to others, right? It's the part of us like being social beings. And so if you spend all day looking at people who are richer, more beautiful, more jacked than you are internally, you demote yourself, right? You, you, you give yourself a lower social rank and that creates a social stress that triggers genuine stress responses, right? Increased sympathetic activation, activation of some like inflammatory process in the body, very similar to if you're socially, socially isolated. So for some people who have the, you know, I want a trajectory to improve their performance, you know, because they're really athletes and they're seeing these other guys doing like, oh, yeah, I can do that, right? That's really beneficial. But in like the general world, the rest of us, when we spend so much time seeing other people do other things better than us, it can almost have the opposite effect. Speaker 2 But not with everybody. Speaker 1 No, no, it's, it's it's varying. We're. Speaker 2 Talking. That's the thing between the difference between an athlete and someone who is intimidated by other people's performances instead of being inspired. Speaker 1 Yeah, so, but but that's that's what I mean is that when when you're 1 type of when you're an athlete and you're seeing other guys like you do this thing right? That's like, Oh yeah, that creates a bar you want to try and hit. But that same thing is very different out for the out for the rest of us based on like seeing how we compare to others. Speaker 2 Well, particularly in things you can't control. It's like your looks or your wealth. Speaker 1 Yeah, but but. Speaker 2 Wealth in some ways. Speaker 1 You achieve, but your mind doesn't interpret it that way, right? You, you don't, you don't immediately rationally think, well, I can never be that, right? I'm never going to look like Brad Pitt, right? Speaker 2 Right. Speaker 1 You can't. You can't apply that sort of like rational thinking to it. Speaker 2 Well, then even worse for young girls, because a lot of them are getting surgery because they know that some girls have radically improved their looks through surgery. And so they think like this is the solution to everything and I just need to get a nose job and a chin job and of this and of that and which. Speaker 1 Of course, never. Speaker 2 No. And also it's like the psychological aspect of being controlled by paying attention to other people's lives is very weird. And it's, you know, Jonathan Hate wrote a great book about it called The Coddling of the American Mind, about the impact of social media and particularly on young girls. It's really bad. Speaker 1 Calling them so he did write coddling of American mind that was more about changes in like academia, academia and helicopter parenting and safety ISM. The anxious generation was the one. Speaker 2 About oh, that's right, Yeah, that's right. And that aspect of it of comparing yourself to other girls is particularly devastating. It's like there's you see when the impact of social media, when social media gets introduced into the world immediately see more self harm, suicidal ideation, all these different things increase. Whereas like so those same stressors. If you were in a position like an athlete and you're a competitive athlete and you see someone who's elite, you would be inspired. But you feel helpless to achieve these goals that you know you like. You can't get any taller, you can't get any better looking. You can't like, it's just this is what you got. And then you see these with and then you see people that are using filters. So it's not even what they really look like. Speaker 1 Yeah. So that I think that's why there's this, it's interesting that very similar exposures depending on who you are and what your trying to achieve and what you have the ability to achieve can have dramatically different effects on mental and and other well-being. Speaker 2 Right. And but you would imagine that for competitive athletes, you're you've already developed a certain amount of resilience already. You already have a competitive spirit and you are working towards a thing that's a high level of achievement and something you're already doing. So seeing a Michael Jordan, seeing a LeBron James, seeing if you're a basketball player, you would be inspired. And instead of being like, I'll never be as good as that guy, you'd be like, fuck, I want to be as good as that guy. What do I have to do? Well, Kobe Bryant worked out every day and he did this neither. That's why I'm going to do that. Speaker 1 So, but that's the key difference, right? Is that something else? We didn't talk about this in terms of like the, the approaches of, of the most successful athletes is that they don't just say I want to be like LeBron or Kobe. They say, what did he do? What can I do? So they focus on the process, right? You have to love and focus on the process because you, you can't guarantee a certain outcome, right? So like in, and I talk about this, I talk about this in the book and I give the example of the 2012 Olympics, right? The the guys who came second, third and 4th ran personal best times. Like several other national records were set during the during like the whole 100 meter Sprint competition, all the different rounds. But like Usain Bolt ran right And so like you can like no you, you can be the best you've ever been and be amazing. Like you can run fast enough to a won a gold medal any other year, but like sometimes you're out of luck because Usain Bolt shows up. So like you've got to focus on the process because you can't guarantee the outcome. But by focusing on the process right, you're going to get, you're going to get much closer. Speaker 2 Yeah, that's interesting because if you are a person trying to be the best in the world and you happen to be in the same weight class as Mike Tyson. Speaker 1 It's gonna be tough. Speaker 2 Yeah, but I mean, that's always been the case. That's the thing in championship level fighting, you find that one someone is a real outlier. That what happens is all the other people in that weight class tend to achieve a very high level, even if they never wind up being as good as Anderson Silva or whoever it is they they want it wind up winds up being a very competitive contender class. Yeah, underneath it and much more competitive than divisions that are not being dominated by elite fighters. Yeah, yeah. You're is a very large book, right. So I know it can't just be the stuff that we've already covered. What other things do you think are in here that are important when you're talking about future proof in your mind? Speaker 1 We'll say you're looking at a dummy copy, so all the pages. Speaker 2 Yeah, you just tricked me. Look at those folks. I was saying this is a really large book. It's a fucking empty book. Speaker 1 So the that's crazy, the different. Speaker 2 I read this. I'm like, maybe it's a trick? Speaker 1 The Oh yeah, you're just not paying attention enough. The the book is as thick as the real one will be. I believe you so and that that's on purpose. Speaker 2 I've never been given a dummy copy of a book before, so does it even have writing? No writing Good. I'm going to use this as my new joke book. Speaker 1 Well, once once the once the full thing is printed, we'll send you a real 1. Speaker 2 You did trick me though, think I didn't try to read from it. Speaker 1 So that like the first, the first part of the book is about some of the history of neuroscience and why we think about the brain the way we do and some of the limitations that's created. It's like why we think about Alzheimer's disease as just being like the accumulation of amyloid and Tau proteins in the brain, which people might have heard of, right? That's what it's been boiled down to when there's actually a much bigger picture and many other things that that are important. Speaker 2 Wasn't that was it Alzheimer's where the amyloid plaque with that idea was sort of proven to be a little bit bullshit? Speaker 1 So there have been a SO not really, but kind of. So there were several Seminole papers. Speaker 2 In they were hoaxed. Speaker 1 Right, they were manipulated in some way, right They and this is this unfortunately is quite common where you you change the figures you manipulate these blocks to make them show different things and you kind of move them around and copy and paste and it kind of shows what you want to show. And so like for some of the like Seminole papers and Alzheimer's that that turned out to be the case. But it, it, it doesn't like discount the fact that it's still still a part of it. But people have increasingly looked away from just the accumulation of certain proteins in the brain for two reasons. 1 is that we had as a field, they had to create new ideas like resilience. And there's this thing called cognitive resilience, which is how much cognitive function do you maintain in the face of these proteins building up in the brain? And that's because the amount of amyloid you have in your brain doesn't really predict cognitive function and cognitive decline that well. So some of that is related to other things. So we know that like exercise is an important part of that. And then we know that these other things that are important as well. So inflammation, other cells in the brain that become critical. So like the white matter is a really critical structure in the brain. It's what allows us to have really fast processing speed. Decision making, executive function, the function of the prefrontal cortex, all of that is kind of dependent on white matter structure. And that seems to be really related to like vascular function, vascular health, resistance training is really important to support that. So like all these other things become important as well. So like that's kind of the, it's just showing like the first part of the book is saying, hey, we kind of focused a lot here, but actually that's, it's not, that's not important. But like this whole bunch of other stuff that's important too. And a lot of it is related to things that we have control over. So then then, you know, I, we talk, I talk about all the different types of exercise, how different types of exercise effects different parts of the brain in different ways. Nutrition talk a lot about cognitive stimulus, social connection, sleep, like I said, stress management and stress mitigation and how you can kind of manage your performance in the moment. And then all of that comes together in terms of into like a model cycle, the 3S model of how these different like things kind of interact and and affect you on a day-to-day basis. So the the first S being stimulus, right? We've talked about all all the reasons why that's that's important. The second S being supply, which is if you stimulate a part of the brain or a network in the brain with a new skill, that area of the brain, the neurons and the astrocytes there, they ask for more blood flow. So the blood vessels have to widen, they dilate to bring in more oxygen, bring in more glucose or or whatever metabolic substrate you're using, ketones, lactate, etcetera. And so you need really good cardiovascular health that's critical. So that's, that's a big part of what we talked about. You also need good metabolic health. So high blood pressure and high blood sugar are two of the biggest risk factors for later dementia because they affect this supply component, either the blood flow getting there or being able to regulate energy. And then there's a bunch of nutrients that are important in in that bucket as well. So Omega threes, vitamin D, iron, magnesium, because they have very B vitamins, they have very specific functions in the brain that we know that if you're deficient, you have an increased risk of cognitive decline, dementia. And then you've stimulated a part of the brain, you've kind of given it all the substrate it needs to do its job. Like we've talked about, adaptation occurs and function and it gets enhanced when we sleep or when we recover. So like that's support is the third bucket. So sleep is a part of that. Other support you might get like hormonal status is important trophic factors, right? Hormones that get released or proteins to get released that support neuroplasticity in the brain, things like brain derived neutrophic factor. And then you want to avoid things that kind of inhibit that process. So as chronic stress can do that, it creates like an overtraining kind of picture in the brain, smoking, excessive alcohol, air pollution, those kinds of things can't can have a negative effect. So like that's how that's how they will interact. And the fact that they interact means that depending on what feels most impactful to you, like what's the thing that you think you can move the needle on by focusing on one area, the whole network starts to shift. And we see that in, in multiple different studies. So if you focus on sleep and you sleep a bit better then the next, then we see that like inflammation decreases and blood pressure improves and blood sugar improves. And the next day you feel more sociable. So you're more likely to interact with other people in a friendly way and you're more likely to engage in cognitive stimulating tasks. Because when we're tired, we kind of shy away from those things. And it's the same if you, so there are studies in older adults where you give them a brain training program and they sleep better because when you stimulate a tissue, you then drive greater need for recovery after the same, if you exercise more, you sleep better. So the, it's not like this long list of things that everybody has to do. And because when you give somebody a list of 37 things, they'll do 0 things, right? We know that. So if you if you just know that they all kind of communicate and interact anywhere you come in, you can start to kind of shift things in your favour. Speaker 2 Now, when you're compiling a book like this, I would imagine there's a lot of editing. And so how do you decide, like, what to leave? And I mean, this looks like it's, I mean, obviously these are all blank pages, so they're not numbered, but it looks like this is at least a 300 page. Speaker 1 Book the, the final book is about 450 pages, 165,000 words. And the, the reference list are like, so unlike most health books, every time I make like a statement or I mentioned a study, there's a little number and that that gives you the paper or papers that I'm talking about that supports that, right? It's 2000 papers long. And so like that all has to go online because they couldn't, of course, they couldn't afford to print it in the book. Speaker 2 But that's probably better anyway. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, like, because like there's like 7 people who will who will do that right now, read that book and then they'll go and look psychos. Yeah, yeah. So, so it's important to me like, anyway, people who want to yeah, people who want to do that can do that. But in, I'm not quite sure how it ended up being this way, but I actually had to cut very little. But there were things where I kind of went down a little bit of a rabbit hole and it was like, man, I'm not sure we really need this. But I basically wrote until I got to the word limit. And then and then I stopped and I focused on the things that I knew that were important and we're going to stay important even in the age of AI and as technology improves and changes. So there wasn't a ton that that ended up getting cut out. Speaker 2 But when you're putting it together, like, how do you decide the like the what's prominent? What's the most important thing to focus on? Where to put things? Speaker 1 So when when I started, when I started writing, as you saw. So I'm I'm going to disagree with my former self. Like the first I wrote the, I wrote the first part of the book like 3 times and like the first time I wrote it, it was like 40,000 words all focused on psychology and like super like esoteric and academic and I was like nobody's going to read this. So like had to be scratched a couple of times. So then the, the core middle part of the book is all those different areas that we know are important, like the big rocks and practical frameworks for how to address those. And then then there's just like a, then there's an introduction to like, like, why should you care about this? Like for like individuals over 40, dementia is the, the most important health concern, right? More than 10% say they've experienced changes in cognitive function. We know that the rates of dementia are going to double or triple in the next two or three decades. Like, so why do people care about this? And like some some history there. And then the middle part is which I always knew I was going to write. These are the most important things and they're always going to remain the most important things. And then the last chapter sort of like just kind of bringing it together. Does that answer your? Speaker 2 Question. It does. It does. Well, I'm glad you wrote it because I think it's a very important thing. And I think there's a lot of people out there that don't understand the risks of being sedentary and that these these are things that you can change and that you can improve the quality of your life by making those changes. And it might make you uncomfortable to begin something like that, but there's some real value in that uncomfortable feeling of trying something new. Absolutely. And then it really does change the way your brain functions and it'll prove the quality of your life. And in this case, if possible, hold off dementia and and just hold off cognitive decline without calling it dementia. Yeah. So many people experience cognitive decline because of atrophy. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. So it's that's kind of like the the the worst possible end state we want to avoid, but you want to maintain your current level of cognitive function for as long as possible and. Speaker 2 Possibly. Speaker 1 Improve it and possibly improve it. And there is evidence you can improve it even later in life. And so a big part of this is that when you write the, you know, earlier we talked about, you know, this graph of cognitive function, right? It increases to yourself, 20 or 30, and then it declines. When we're doing studies that show that kind of thing, what we're doing is we're looking at a whole bunch of people, maybe 10s or hundreds of thousands of people. And we're saying, like, you plot them all on the graph. And yeah, as as you get, as you sort of increase in age, there are some people who are going to lose function. You kind of like draw the average down. But we've known essentially since for the last 50 years that when you look at the same person over several decades, it's actually very normal for us to maintain function. So like the Seattle internal study was run by a guy called Warner Shahi in Seattle. And it was one of the first studies where they measured cognitive function in the same people every seven years for several decades. And like every seven years they measured the same people and brought in new people. And so they ended up with people who were like in their 20s up to over 100 years old. And they found that the average effects, by that I mean that more than 50% of people to maintain the same level of cognitive function into the 50s, sixties, 70s and 80s. And those data were used to actually raise the retirement age in the US in in the 1980s because they showed that it actually wasn't normal for people to decline. But the problem is now we've embodied this idea that as you get older you will decline and as a result, you stop engaging in all the things that we've talked about. So you're like, oh, I'm too old to lift that. I'm too old to learn a new skill. You know, I don't have time to do that. And as a result, why? It's a self fulfilling prophecy. You stop engaging in those processes and decline happens as a result. But if we know that it's possible to maintain function and we continue to engage in those processes, the norm should be that function is maintained. Speaker 2 Last question, did you do an audio version of this? Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm recording it at the moment. Speaker 2 Yeah. All right. When will that be? Speaker 1 Available be out on the same day, March 24th. Speaker 2 March 24th stimulated mine. Doctor Tommy Wood. Go get it, folks. I promise it won't be like this. Thank you, Tommy. I I really enjoyed this. Thank you very much. I think it's really important information too, and I think it's something that everyone should apply. Thank you. All right, Thank you. Bye everybody.