#24 – The Faust And The Furious

[Music] Welcome to Hellbent for Metal, the podcast that's unlikely to talk about anything Royal, but we'll talk about King by Satirikon and his host by Perra Queens. There's a thought actually, favorite metal song with a Royal word in the title. Ooh, I put you in a spot there, haven't I? You're a spot for me on the spot. You know what? I don't like Barry Tamara, because I'm not into that sort of thing, but there was some called Royal Blood, which is really fucking good. That's quite good choice actually. I do like Barry Tamara, actually. I'm not Germany into that kind of thing, but I like them. I am just going to always go with King for Satirikon, because, you know, Dragonwings, King. Also, is the catch your song in Heavy Metal in five, four time? You told me this before. Yeah. I've never gone into Satirikon like massively, but you told me that you were going to be there and be able to persuade me on them, so. I think I am actually, because like, you do need to approach me in the right way, because if you introduce them in the wrong way, someone might not get them. And I've seen loads of people go, I don't really get it. And then someone put them in context and they go, oh no, now I get it. I'm particularly if you've seen them live. But enough about royalty for now, because we're actually going to come back to that later. You are listening to Hellbent Metal, the LGBT+ Heavy Metal podcast. I am Tom Dehr, and with me, as usual, is a man who knows nothing about movies, but knows a hell of a lot about Black Metal. That Russian. How is the airing hunt for obscure evil being treating you? Since we last met Matt. Right, I mean, I've got something well-mainstreamed today, I know. Yeah, you are destroying your cult cred, sorry, your cult cred in One Fail Swoop. Speaking movies, though, actually just before we get started. Life of Hageny, you have a new documentary out, which tells the story of the band. Obviously, because this band documentary, what else was going to do? And in particular, spend a lot of time talking about their very, very early days, which is really cool, actually. But also about meaners coming out. Obviously, as meaners being a guest on the show, I've watched it. And I can confirm it is a bloody excellent film. Some of the early-day stuff, in particular, as I mentioned, is really cool. Like them as kids going to Lamar to watch Slayer, which is this. Like, have you seen Get Thrashed? Oh, I have not. So Get Thrashed is this documentary about the Thrashed scene, particularly the American Thrashed scene in the '80s. And it's really, really amazing. And if you like Thrashed music at all, I can't recommend it enough. And a lot of it's like the old clubs that the scene was based in. And one of them was Lamar's, which is this kind of legendarily incredibly violent, incredibly territorial club, where if you went on a hard-core night in a metal show, you would get your head kicked in. And if vice versa. And it just sounds like the absolutely the kind of place that I would never have gone. But it has entered folklore. Anyway, there's a load of stuff about them go with that. But there's also obviously a lot of stuff about Mina's life and coming to terms with who she is and being happy. And that's really powerful. And I really am kind of full of praise for it. Did you actually know Life Evaculity before Mina came out? I don't actually know. I've known Life Evaculity for a while. When did you actually come out? 2011, so quite a while ago. 2011. Ah, that's probably not that I probably just missed it. I do imagine I sort of first heard of them, probably maybe 2012, 2013, that sort of thing. Because I remember Mina initially from the first time I ever heard of Life Evaculity was when they did Roadrunny United because they went away for a long time. But when the Roadrunny United project happened, which was like, was one really cool and he's now just unthinkable for anything like that. And it was like that, whenever I happened again. But Mina was involved, right? And the DVD had a lot of people I respected speaking about Life Evaculity with enormous reverence. And I went, oh, I need to go and check out this band. So that was kind of my introduction. I should probably add, having kind of said this film is really good. It needs a lot of content warnings. Like there was obviously really frank discussions about transition and everything that comes with being trans. And there's also quite a lot of stuff on alcohol and drug abuse, which is not fun. There's also quite a bit of discussion of violence and domestic violence, which is really not fun. And also talk of things like mental illness, self-harm and suicide. So it take those content warnings into consideration before watching. But that said, it's bloody great and it's very personal. And I was really impressed. It's called, if anyone's interested, called The Sound of Scars, which is also the name of the last album, you can watch it at soundofscars.com. Proceeds are going to two charities. One is The National Service of Prevention, a lot of life-living, which is in the States, obviously. And the other one's called All Out, which is an LGBT organisation, which is so, that's cool. And the film's available to watch until May 3rd. I don't know why it's only available until May 3rd. I would just thought it made it available much longer, but presumably it's something to do with hosting costs. That seems to be a bit of a thing now. I've noticed like films that are just doing limited runs. Yeah, I'm not sure I'm keen on that because it kind of. No, it's a bit strange. If you're busy for those two weeks, you're kind of, you've missed it. But, yeah, it's, obviously, it's there film they can do what they like with it. But yeah, my thoroughly recommended. Back to Royal Matters, though, because we begin this week, the another segment we call Peace of Mind. This is where we have a talk about an issue where the queer and the metal have mixed. I should say it's not, we didn't want to do this episode. We had something really, really fun planned involving two bands that I really, really love that were doing things that were really cool. And this was going to really be a really happy episode. And instead, we've got to talk about this shit. Yeah, it's the month and month here, go to the. Just fucking come along and ruin our plans. Yeah, and it's kind of. I know that was kind of two months ago now, but you kind of think. We could go more than two months without having one of these things to talk about. Norwegian Black Metalers Emperor, I say Black Metal, and Matt Les, kind of the Norwegian Black Metal band, really. The far and away, the biggest, have announced a 30th anniversary livestream called "A Night of Imperial Wrath 2021". It's called. they've added the 2021 bit because "A Night of Imperial Wrath" is the title of their DVD of them playing VAC in in 2006, which was like their first reunion. They seem to do a reunion like every five years. I don't know whether someone keeps like saying, "Oh, it's an anniversary, here's some money", or something like that, or they just get bored, or whatever. But before we go into talking about why we're talking about it, where do you stand on Emperor? I don't think I've asked you this, despite being a massive Black Metal fan. I don't think I know what I think about what you think about them. No, it's interesting, obviously, because it ties very much into what we're about to talk about. I've never gone in on Emperor because I only discovered Emperor, or they only got into more extreme stuff after I knew about the whole 2013-2014 run that they had Falsace come with. And I was like, "Okay, well, fuck them". Yeah, we're about to get to that. I fucking adore them. And it makes me really sad that I have to say everything I'm about to say, because, like, they're four albums. I mean, even 9 Equilibrium actually are just kind of. There isn't anything else like them. People have tried to sound like Emperor and failed, or they've. They've made it a bit of it, but not the rest. There is something absolutely stunningly brilliant about all those records. And Prometheus just sounds like it's from another planet, still. That's 20 years old, and it still sounds ahead of its time. And the first two are just kind of symphonic glory, and then 9 Equilibrium is this weird little thing. So I'm really sad that I have to say everything that we're about to say. What they've announced as part of this package, and the reason we're talking about this, is that they will be joined on the stream by Mortis. Now, that, I think, is fucking cool, right? They've got the goblin back. Mortis was the bass player back in the early days, and then decided he wanted to go off into the woods and make kind of. evil, evil, electronic music, and dress like a goblin. Now, if he was coming back to where the goblin makeup and play bass and black metal band, that I absolutely would love. But they're also being joined by Faust, a bored item, his real name. Faust was the drummer on in the Nightside Eclipse and the Emperor EP. He's also convicted murderer. Because on August 21st, 1902, he stabbed Magna Andrias and to death in the Olympic Park in Lillahama. He stabbed him 37 times and then kicked his head repeatedly as he lay on the ground. Magna was gay, and the murder took place in a well-known cruising spot. It took about a year for them to arrest Faust, and he was then convicted for the crime and sentenced to 14 years in prison. He was released in 2003 after serving nine years and four months of that sentence. Those facts are kind of not really up for debate. There's no kind of, did he do this? Did he not do this? That's a matter of public record. This is all confirmed. I'm not saying anything. It isn't publicly available information. He has denied any home-of-phobic views or motivation. How much of what I said was new information for you when you started getting ready for this episode? And how much was stuff that you had kind of had drummed into you when you first started getting into the nasty bits of metal? I don't think any of this was new to be honest. I've read all this before because obviously it's relevant to my metal interests and my LGBT interests. It's one of those apparent overlaps. I'd read all this before and I mean it never gets easier. Does it whenever you go? about to it and it's bought up and something like this and becomes relevant again because of what they're doing now. Yeah and unfortunately it's kind of like there's a band that I won't talk about ever and I've kind of intimated their existence without actually mentioning who they are. Basic because the guy's dead right he's a very similar situation. Well it's a slightly different situation in that it seemed fairly clear that that was homophobic and motivated because he never made any statement to say it wasn't. So it seems a little bit clearer on that regard but he's dead now. It's fine the band don't exist he's dead looks I can just say right they don't exist. I can skip over them and never have to worry about them. In this case though it keeps coming up and I keep having to fucking read all this shit over again and it's horrible every time you do. Yeah it's just the way that they've sort of platformed it isn't it you know they've used his name on the poster. It seems as though it's like trying to be a selling point. Yeah yeah that's really problematic. Yeah I mean as if it wasn't bad enough anyway then bringing him back to use that as a sort of money grabbing tactic is what it seems like it's I think it's disgusting. Yeah it was same in 2014 though they kind of said oh we've got Falsback. He was the drummer on the album so it's authentic. Now I need to come in with a massive Mayer Copa here right because in 2014 when they did that 20th anniversary of the night said tour I saw them twice I saw them a Hellfest and Bloodstock and everything we're about to say and we've just mentioned is stuff I thought them. I mean back then I bit my tongue and I had a platform right I was I was editor at terrorism I could have said something and I've regretted ever since that I didn't. The reason I didn't was that I felt massively insecure in my place in the media and I thought speaking out could cost me a career and I really wanted that career and I took the cowardly way and I didn't. The other reason was that I had quite comparatively recently stopped being very discreet and basically kind of it was quite early in at the time everyone knew so I wasn't yet confident how well a gay man speak out on this issue would go down so I mean these aren't good reasons like these these are shit reasons I should have said something they are the truth but that doesn't make it okay so right now I need to hold my hands up and say I'm sorry I got that one really wrong there's no way around that. It's understandable I mean we grow as people though don't we you know yeah we don't look we're we're doing it now we're talking about it now this is our platform now so yeah well the difference this time is that I kind of this podcast is going to continue whatever happens right it's mine yeah if I get no platform by the industry or I get fired well I'm in charge I'm not gonna I'm gonna say I'm in charge it's the two of us together right but it's not the situation where there is there is I have a line manager who could get rid of me yeah which is what I'm his kind of the point I mean interestingly how do you be in that kind of situation not directly comparison but in a similar kind of position how would you have handled it in the with the in if your platform was kind of mainly old media oh man it's hard to say I mean look even this like I you know I understood that we had to do this today but like you sort of start we didn't want to we don't want to have to do this it's horrible yeah I mean but I don't know like it's a sort of responsibility thing now isn't it you know that we have people that are listening to people that this is going to be important to people that this is going to affect and we sort of have a duty I guess of bringing this to them and putting our views across it yeah and if we don't yeah we can't really expect anyone else to friendly although friends of the pod right act have done so already I think if there's a you know it was it was really good to hear them kind of them speak up because they didn't have to right they could have just ignored it and they didn't so they've already had a say I think they're obviously because they're not focused on this stuff they weren't able to go into the same kind of detail that we're about to but you know it was nice to hear that there are allies out there already who are saying this time we're not sure we're gonna stay silent yeah I've seen quite a bit on like social media this week about it like when allies have been posting the story and to be fair most like most of the comments I've seen have been like no fuck this which you know I've seen a lot I've seen a lot of people please do back really I saw that on because I've seen it on Facebook a few times like being shared from Emperor's official page or bishan's official page and like in the shared article it's been a lot of like no fuck this but yeah I went on to the actual original post by echon and yeah everyone in those comments were like oh yeah great oh yeah I don't know yeah one now the one thing that everyone's agreed on is mortis is being back is great right that that's the fun bit it's like yes mortis is a great sign why do you have to have the murderer yeah just on that though like that's weird because I like and not I don't know much about Emperor apart from this but my looks and mortis was only a band for like a year right he was on the it's like it's he was on the original the debut album and I'm pretty sure he was on rath o' tiron as well so yeah I think he was on Emperor rath o' tiron and in the night so it eclipse I'm now gonna check that and be found to be wrong but he was certainly on night side because I have vivid memories of getting the album looking at the back and there's kind of photos of each of them in the corner anyway the one person who did speak up in 2014 was Jeff Walker from carcass who and this is on youtube by the way at least it is until it gets pulled now we've just pointed out if you look at one of the kind of fan filmed videos of them doing the granular lighting darks tannic mills at bloodstock 2014 you will see what I'm about to say so it's you don't have to take my word for it when they were playing I think I don't know if there's subheadlining or they were kind of in third from the top but they were very near the top of the bill bloodstock if you don't know it has a which and particularly this is going to reply to non-UK listeners they have a stage named after Sophie Lancaster right he was a a goth who was murdered for looking like a goth in great Manchester in 20 2007 and there's now a foundation which is set up to essentially stand against discrimination on on things like appearance and particularly for members of the alternative community Jeff Walker who's never one to hold his piece said we're going to play another song from surgical steel this one's for Sophie Lancaster and I'm not making a joke now but the irony tonight is not lost on me bill that's all we can say which is literally the most strong thing I heard in the whole thing and I had respect even more than I ever had for carcass for doing that because they were clearly trudding round fucking themselves over by saying what they did yeah yeah that's fucking brilliant unlike you say like they could have shot themselves in the fort massively there and never been invited back to play but the fact that they've done it in such a sort of way that I think it's going to be more effective because people that don't know what they're on about are going to go away and do their own research and sort of then figure it out yeah you hope I mean there's because it's going to be a load of drunk people you're like yeah Sophie Lancaster because you know bloodsod everyone does do yeah for Sophie Lancaster because it's such a it's a barn door right it's it's there is no it's clearly supporting the Sophie Lancaster foundation is just the right thing to do there's no other side of the yeah no of course I mean Sophie's mother is there every year right now with her own stand and stuff it's great yeah and they do some really good work and that like it is a absolute obvious to it whatever whatever your political perspective the right and wrong of it is obvious and it is you don't murder people for what they look like everyone's fine with that so saying you know this sums to Sophie Lancaster bloodsod just gets everyone saying yeah like there's no one is it objects to it and there's going to be a load of people who are just going to hear that and not think anything more but I think you're right a load of people did go away and Google something and found out something that they perhaps did because it wasn't like though it was announced in the press that Foulson was playing on the festival bill it wasn't made a big deal of so there would have been a load of people who didn't realize yeah of course and you know caucus as well not only could they show themselves and they fought there but they you know were clearly objecting to this before they got there like they could have pulled out or they could have not booked anyway but I think it's a stronger thing to go and play and make that point there there's no one would have heard it you know yeah I mean I think with the those kind of things it kind of depends on what it is right because I think if they let if they booked a full on NSBM band it would be a bit different yeah right if they if they or if you know they say one off appearance by burson guys you know if it's if it is a a band who's sole member or a band whose entire ethos espouses a certain ideology there is there is a clear difference between that and one member of the band having a fairly seriously grim past which most people should object to yeah and like you say I think that's sort of ties in with that it not being actually on the poster as well because you know emperor without foused are not problematic whereas you know burson like you said everyone will see that on the poster or no I don't want a minute and when they went to America of course they did go without foused because he could get into Britain because when we were part of the european union freedom of movement meant that as an Norwegian citizen he had to be allowed to come where is when he went to America he would have need to visa and they took one look at his criminal war record and went no! Calls not! So Trim who was the drummer for the rest of Emperor's existence went instead because you know America just went and America won't let you in if you've got a serious criminal record. So I think Britain would have let in an American with a serious criminal record for that other and you know that just makes made doing business impossible but in Europe people couldn't didn't object. Now we do have to say again that Faust has denied any homophobic motivation. Now we can't really speculate what was in his heart at the time because we don't have any idea and you know speculating isn't helpful. We do have to ask though whether or not he was motivated by hate towards Magnum Dreson because of his homosexuality or not. Is that relevant? Does that matter? I mean bluntly no. I guess you know we're covering it because of the fact that it was you know inner cruising spot and Dreson approached him for sex and sort of the Faust agreed to go over with him but the end of the day whatever the motivation was he murdered someone in Corbord and I just don't think that that should be. I mean I don't think it's too controversial to say that I just don't think that he should be playing and sort of made a fucking selling point on this post. Right I have these written several times in my notes like whatever you say he fucking murdered a guy that's the thing that you cannot get away from. And on that as well it's the fact that you know correct me if I'm wrong but I've looked several times over the years I've never seen him show any remorse for it. Yeah we're going to get to this in a second I think on the on the route on the before we get to that and that's the next item to talk about the the motivation thing I think is utterly irrelevant whether this is a homophobic crime right because if you take advantage of a gay man's vulnerability within society to murder him it is as bad to me you know my estimation as whether you were out to kill a queer right because you've either way you've targeted him because of his status whether it's his vulnerability or because you simply hate him it's the same thing the effect is the same you're taking advantage of the vulnerability within society right that's it's that's what you're doing and on top of that ultimately when you boil it down this man's life clearly did not have any value to him whether he was motivated by hate or just opportunism or opportunism the fact that he went for this guy rather than someone else makes it an anti-gay crime well exactly I mean you know he went home always going home that night through a well-known gay cruising spot and you know the under-earsent approached him and fast could have said no you know he could have not gone off with him you could have not stabbed him he could have gone off with him but not stabbed him 37 times well like that as well I mean he could have just said outright no and just carried on walking you know he chose to take advantage of this guy's proposal and then killing yeah no I agree now we do have to say the part of the issue as you mention is definitely the lack of remorse and there as far as I'm aware and I have gone looking right I have looked at this meant for a number of times over the years and I've looked at it again this week since it's been now I have never seen any remorse the closest thing I've ever seen was when he was interviewed for a fan scene for as part of his other band blood tsunami the quote that's relevant is that he says I was a behavioral trial to made a fatal mistake 20 years ago and I have never had any racist or homophobic views a fatal mistake is not stabbing someone 37 times a fatal mistake is I got into my car and I drove to drove a bit too fast and lost control of it or that's not to say that that's you know that wouldn't be a serious matter if you killed someone but that is a mistake mistake applies accident this you don't stab someone 37 times by accident and they kick the head in a they lay on the ground yeah and that is you know that is about as close as I've seen to remorse I have seen no statement to say yeah I was wrong I did terrible thing I need to make amends for this exactly even that you know what what what that quote is it's still not an apology is it yes it's very not an apology saying sorry yeah this is this is what I did well yeah are you sorry for it like what the fuck yeah and this is one that's kind of done the round some like someone I have heard that he is a reformed character right and it's clear that emperor think he is because otherwise they wouldn't have him back emperor themselves to quote what ish on his saying ish on has said understand from the outside from an outside point of view you see a person that commit the crime and then that's all you know about a person if somebody from your family does something like that that's just a part of the person you know we just have to admit to ourselves that we have different parameters for the people close to us and those who are distant it's just individual perception we got some criticism especially for bringing fouss with us on stage this is obviously in reference to the 2014 tour people thought that by us doing that we were condoning the actions he did in the past and the potential audience would be condoning it by watching the show with him on stage my reply to that is okay we can all have individual souls and ideas about what is the right penance for a crime something the death penalty is okay something it should be marled up but in Europe we don't have that death penalty we have a just assistance that says this crime you can serve that amount of time once you've done your time you can start over now that was quite by the way that he gave to I think the metal sucks podcast I wonder what whether that's a fair summation of the situation personally it's a hard one because I know what you can sort of understand that but like I think until he shows remorse or until he apologizes you are condoning it by bringing him out on stage with you because I think you know I firmly believe in rehabilitation but part of that process is a apologise and a recognising your what you've done and trying to seek forgiveness for it exactly and there's something absolutely critical in that quote right is that you the people you know and people who are a long distance you are going to have different perceptions of yeah ishon exactly that's the whole point you are asking people at a distance to be fine with something that you are fine with close up exactly and you know for all we know Faust has shown remorse to ishon and that's why he's doing it but they both know that we've not seen that you know the audience has not seen that Faust knows that he has a platform he knows that people know who he is and he has had the opportunity to do that countless times it has never took it yeah and I think like there was real missed opportunity as well right like if he kind of if he'd come out and shown remorse and shown genuine growth there was an opportunity to say actually people can reform and actually I made a terrible decision and it was the worst thing I've ever done and I've learnt from it and you should learn from my example and not do it right in the same way that like some of the best people for stopping young white kids getting recruited by neon artists are former neon artists because they're a load of them particularly in the states who will go and work in things like sports clubs and youth groups in America so people who were part of neon artsy movements have now reformed they will go and work with the people most likely to be recruited to say I did this shit you don't want to you end up in prison and you end up realizing that you have made some dreadful mistakes believe some dreadful things and done some horrible things and you'll never forgive yourself and that it's really effective it's incredibly effective and having him do that would have been an opportunity to send some really positive messages the fact that he hasn't done it means that we're basically being asked to just be okay because some time has passed exactly exactly that which is not how it works I'm afraid yeah and on the on that he's not home if I'd be getting more thing gal who I would absolutely love to have chat to because I have I met him briefly but it was it was kind of there wasn't time to talk about some of the things that I would have wanted to talk about gal is famously an openly gay black metal musician and he told I think it was metal injection that the first person to send him message after everyone caught up with him being gay was foused and that he sent messages of support and that he you know claimed that the the Norwegian black metal scene now is it's quite liberal when it comes to homosexuality now that might be true but how the hell are we supposed to know because it's not coming from foused it's coming from like if someone tells you something that's a lot more powerful than someone says someone said something that's hearsay yeah exactly yeah it'd be good to sort of hear that from gal himself yeah well I mean it was gal saying it but we'd like to hear hear foused to it yes now as well as the you know you're basically asking us to forgive something yourself by saying please be right with this guy now he's totally reformed honest he won't talk to you about it and he won't say anything about public but he's reformed we promise as well as expecting us personally to be right with it you're also testing the black metal scene right you're asking the black metal fandom are you're right with this guy who murdered a gay guy and has made no apology Because you doing that says that you give more of a fuck with about playing with him than the guy he killed really and that you're asking the scene just to accept the same thing and if they do that's a massive fuck you to people like you and me Yeah, I mean, it's just a horrible precedent isn't it? Especially in a genre that's You know does have a lot of problems or housing the past at least I had a lot of problems with it's sort of liberality and you know Targeting I guess marginalized groups and you know all the different ties it's hard Yeah, it's I mean this whole thing is just Really quite hard to navigate isn't it? Yeah from our side like I've built the that's what I mean from our side But from their side it is seemingly so simple. Yeah, just come out fast and Like actually show em all to actually apologize and ask people to forgive it to forgive you And then you might stand in better stead Yeah, cuz like neither of us a hang-em shoot and birch him tight, right? Like I am a massive believer in Rehabilitation and Forgiveness like there two things that I consider really important to my world view and I'm absolutely not saying shit can't Infigure to that's it. He's a must go we can never see him again There are ways back, but it has to start with I'm sorry Avoiding the subject is not the way to do it. Yeah exactly and you know As well the fact that this has happened before that there was someone else who got at prison having murdered a gay guy and Everyone was just fine with both of them Sends the message that guys aren't welcome here because you're basically saying yeah These bands this music matters more to us than two gay guys who died yeah These we care more about good riffs than two packets getting stabbed to death. Right. That's what it comes down to Yeah, and that was on the year on the year shine post on Facebook as well that I saw like it wasn't even mentioned Like what he did it was just oh yeah, he's back Yeah, it's like yeah, but that's not the main thing here. Yeah, I have to say as well that a lot of the media and industry giving him a pass In the past it's not so bad these days, but certainly there are a lot of outlets in the past including ones that you know I had a risk I could have changed and I have to open my hands up and say I've been part of this problem Giving them a pass is that they care more about pissing they care more about not pissing off emperor or those working with emperor Then the guy the emperor drummer killed that that's what it comes down to right is the people that people need the access or they need To have him for a book shows them or do projects with them or do much do reissues of him the night side eclipse They care more about that than they do about What happened in a park in Lilla hammer in 1992? Irrespective of how bad that thing was yeah exactly and I don't get it as well because You know that has happened, you know and still two degrees happening. You know fouls is being allowed to do this there are other bands and other musicians in those bands that have You know done some pretty bad things, but not murdered someone and they've Then shown remorse and apologized, but they've still been like cancelled and they're still not being able to come back like why is this quite gonna pass? For example Okay, so not really all would but Jesse Lacey from brand new was sort of socially harassing a minor bi-text which is obviously horrific and You know a polaroid showed remorse and I'm not saying he should be allowed back, but he hasn't This you know fouls to his Not showing your remorse not a polaroid and has always like me to crime and has been a lot back Yeah, so so basically what you're saying is that the the person who did a rally really bad thing and should not be allowed back has not been allowed back Then this other guy has just got a pass exactly yeah, yeah, and like that for me is where I start going now I have to get personal right I have to say this is why I give a shit about this and it's that because Foust and the other guy kind of got allowed back without very much of a pushback Was a big factor in why I was as discreet for as long as I was because I just thought blackmate Or wasn't a safe to be safe place to be a gay exactly and that's that's what it ultimately comes down to is that you're sending the message to me Exactly that I am not welcome here or at least if I were to be killed here You you would care less about that then look I can play drums real good That's that's why I get really exercised about it, right exactly We've said you know there are certain sort of genres and scenes in The sort of alternative in the world where we do feel less welcome and it is because of stuff like this Yeah, and black metal is a big one and it's like and it's not just because of the Nazis like black metal does have a Nazi problem But that's not really the point. It's that there are individuals who clearly Do not feel that I'm entirely welcome there or at least that I matter less there and that I can you know I have interviewed a no we a prominent member of a prominent Norwegian black metal band and being told he's not gonna answer those questions because my questions were too gay Yeah, it's not just these two things happen twice. It's that everyone was fine with it and that there are people who kind of go around saying oh no we're not part of the problem and this wasn't like a problematic band It wasn't someone who Like killed anyone or did anything like that and actually the as far as I'm aware the person in particular is a met is an Upstanding member of society with clean criminal record So it wasn't like it was a bad it was a no known bad dude But I was kind of made to feel additionally unwelcome by that and it kind of how casual it was Yeah, and it goes where you clearly don't care that much right? Yeah, and I've heard I've definitely heard like completely off the record unrepeatable here say stuff about other bands that's even worse You know stuff I can't even say without naming the bands. It's sufficiently Libolas like they would own the podcast quite quickly But you know that's what that's where this leads to is that you get a general feeling of unwellness that actually hurts people and as we've said before being Discrete and it's not quite as bad as being in the closet, but it hurts you right like having to go and try and Think how the hell am I gonna get out of this situation without Trying to navigate as in how you actually express yourself as a human being is just weird content It's a weird concept and it's frightening right like if you grew up if you were genuinely worried about what people's reaction is gonna be and it your Fear is not limited to they might not invite me to the cool party Like if it's I'm this might actually be my career. Yeah, that's quite significant exactly and as well like it boils down to metal is Four outcasts. We don't need additional barriers. No Yeah, we were all fucking weirdos here guys Well, but most of us kind of there is a Patent of people who feel they don't fit in anywhere else finding a place they do fit in a metal and it's it's really important We don't start saying yeah, but you would you can't come in you know and not because of you've done something but just because of who you are Not because you're a nurse. It's not like you've like we've met you. We tried you out. We think you're a prick please go away It's just no, we don't want your kind here and also We hate to repeat what we've already said he fucking killed someone Like I don't there's much as all we've just said is kind of is true and is important Ultimately the reason we're really objecting is that he stabbed someone 37 times and kicked his head multiple times while he lay dying and then If they did justice for a year. Yeah, I mean not that there's like too much of a scale of How heinous murder is but if there was this is quite near the top. It's it's bad, right? It's it's you know, we don't want to start comparing awful crime with awful crime, but we can all agree. It's an awful crime It's quite simple quite simple and there's a very good reason that a a Murder conviction is about as long as a jail sentence as you can get We generally agree. Yeah, taking taking the life of someone is about a serious crime as you can get There might be other ones that are as bad, but we're not gonna They're sufficiently bad that we're not gonna bother trying to compare you know compare horrible with horrible The question though is let it's a reasonable question for people to ask us is well, what do you want then? Are you just trying to cancel it? Because yeah, that's not what we kind of think should happen is not an unreasonable one What do you feel would be the way forward? But I mean obviously they could we could just kind of say right we're gonna boycott emperor or we could just get Or they can Emperor can continue, but they have to get rid of him first or whatever That's kind of one way out, but it's it's not a very helpful one really. It's kind of we'd like something else, please What do you think would be the way forward? I mean, I think I feel like we've addressed that you know Come out and actually apologize show remorse make it sincere and I'm not saying that's gonna solve everything, but it's the first step on the ladder, isn't it? Yes, then we can potentially move forward from there, you know let we both said we are for rehabilitation and believe people can change But it's the fact that he's not shown that that's happened, you know He was only 18 when he committed this crime He's not you know, he's now over double that like a lot of time has passed where he You'd hope would have been able to change and grow But it's the fact that that's not been shown. Yeah. So, if he has changed, how are we supposed to know? Exactly. We just take Ishaan's word for it. Unfortunately, I don't think something this series we can do that. I mean, I think he has to, you know, answer some serious questions to write to do him as well here. Yeah, unfortunately we do. Like Ishaan and Samoth could have said no. They could have said no, and I'll go do that. And like, I know it's their mate and that's hard. But people cut their mates out of their family all the time, going to do bad things. Or like we said, you know, even if it's not no, just let us know why we should forgive him. Yeah. Or why we should be allowing this to happen. And here's the thing, right? I do believe people can change. And I do believe that there is, you know, there is a way we could have not kind of welcomed him back and held him up as opposed to child for something, something we value. But just say, there is a way forward. And there is, you know, there is a lesson to be learned here. And we don't feel that it's entirely inappropriate for him to be touring with with a band. We probably would rather he wasn't kind of on the cover of revolver or whatever. But, you know, there is a way back. Yeah, I'd be quite happy to interview myself. I wouldn't if he agreed with certain stipulations that I'm going to ask about this. And if he doesn't say this, I'm going to follow it with this. So, to everyone is clear, what's going to happen? I would be willing to talk to him and giving the opportunity to say, I'm sorry, I have remorse. I have changed. And this is how I'd do that. I'm not sufficiently kind of close-minded, but I would be totally averse to that conversation. I'd really like that to happen. But I think it's very unlikely. No, that's what I mean. Over the last hour, many years, nothing has suggested to me that he'd be willing to do that. No, absolutely nothing at all. Ultimately, though, if nothing does happen, I think we're going to have to kind of continue to draw attention to this until at least it's acknowledged. If he doesn't want to talk about it, then I'd love to, if Shanta talks to us about it, that would be the next best thing. So, I'd like to say, why should we believe that he's changed? Exactly, because he's the one who keeps telling us to be okay with it. And this Shanta's a smart, articulate guy, right? It's not like he's, he would be unable to hold a conversation about something that's difficult. It's not exactly like you, there are musicians out there who think, oh, if we're going to get into serious issues, we're just going to, this is just going to be no fun for everyone. But this Shanta is not that guy. He's a smart person. So, there's no kind of, there's no excuse for not having a conversation because he's not bright enough. I'm absolutely certain he's probably smarter than I am. Absolutely certain probably. He's probably smarter than I am. So, I'd be willing to have that conversation whether or not that, you know, they would be at all interested. I have no idea. I didn't bother approaching their people for comment because I, unless we would kind of, we were offered the opportunities have the proper interview. I'm kind of, I wasn't really interested in we didn't have time for that this week. I wear that's not kind of necessarily the best thing journalistically. And if this is the BBC, we'd be getting a slap on the wrist for doing that. But, you know, I think under the circumstances, hopefully people will accept what we've done here is kind of the best that we we're able to do at the moment. I think that's probably what we need to say on it because this is kind of getting, it's a horrible conversation and we haven't had anything else. Hopefully though, that's offered a perspective on it. But let's move on to something more cheerful. Yay! We charge enthusiastically after that and God, we need to drink into the cakery gay bar, which can finally open for outdoor service. And I'm just going to have the biggest cocktail with the most fruit you've ever seen. But you're a specialist cocktail bar. What's a really, really fruity cocktail? You know, the kind of thing that Del Boyd would love. Yeah. Singapore Slim, it. Lovely stuff. Oh, slender, rock-a-coloured slings, isn't it? Is that right? Yeah. Yeah, okay. So I'm up for that. I love gin. Anyway, you probably, you know what the hate-create gay bar is by now. Matt, what have you got for the jukebox this week? So, yeah, today I've bought him whilst he sleeps. Whilst he sleeps are a very special band to me. The debut album, this is the six holds a really quite dear place in my heart. Oh, you can't, that's the debut. You can't, that's the debut. Is the debut? Yeah, the North South, but nothing was not an album. So I counted that as an album. It has five songs, Tom. Yeah. Three of the re-insludes. It's eight songs, three of the re-insludes, that's five songs. I'm not a bit. Well, the deluxe edition though is like 27 minutes long, and that's kind of long enough to be an album for me. But then, you know, I'm with femoris from DARPA and that I don't think any album should be longer than one side of a TDK90. Unless it's Proc, I make an exception for Proc. But anyway, sorry, carry on. Anyway, yeah, so this is the six was a really special to me. It was my first tattoo. Nine years later, they returned with their fifth album, Sleep Society. So we've spoken off air on, you've said you've never really gone in on what you're supposed to see before. We've had this album for a while. I was wondering if you'd gone back to any of the other stuff before we talked through this one. I have. I have to say that I thought while she's leaps around absolutely fine, what I kind of, I scratched my head and went, "Murr?" About was that they seem to get people going absolutely nuts for them straight away and I didn't quite understand. I didn't get that myself. I still don't think that the first few records are very good. I thought you were having, well, they're fine. They're fine, but I'm not going to listen to them more than once. I mean, a lot of it has to say is kind of, I want it either to be heavier or more melodic. If you're about to abuse the interview cliche. Like, if they were more melodic choruses or the risks were heavier, I would probably have gone, "Yeah!" But because it kind of fell in this weird in-between spot that a lot for a lot of people is obviously the perfect place, right? The number of people who went nuts for it clearly says there are loads of people out there for whom those albums were pitched perfectly. I have since gone back and I don't know why, but you are where you should have done more for me than it did at the time. That's a good record and I did go, "Yeah, I need to spend more time with this." We've spoken off then, you're mad. I like so what, which apparently is the app that is really controversial. Well, yeah, so as I mentioned, I love the debut, Brainwashed, the fellow who was riff central. You're always f*cking brilliant and really good at incorporating their more melodic side. Yeah, and that's the bit that I liked, right? That's what I went, "Oh, this is good!" No, exactly. So, what lost me a little bit because not to sound too harsh, but I think a lot of it sounded like you're we becides with electronics that, for the most part, don't really work in my opinion. They have been listening to Bring Me the Horizon, right? Yeah, but I feel with this sort of background track, this sounds almost like a halfway house to me between you all we know so what, the songs sound more original and there's more variety. And I think the electronics that they use here are actually used really well because they don't sound like they're reaching for something else. No, they sound like natural parts of the songwriting, don't they? Exactly, exactly. Like before it felt a bit forced. Yeah. It seems natural. The song's just really cool and there's a couple of really cool guest features. Yeah, so I'm really happy that Washa sleeps a back on it. Tom? This is great. There's no kind of equivocating. Before we get to the good stuff though, and we are going to focus on the good, we have to briefly do the elephants in the room because they're two of them, right? It's called Sleep Society because they basically said that the Sleep Society is this revolutionary new way that they're going to be able to sustain the band near where people don't pay for music, right? It's a patron. Okay, it is a patron. It is I'm absolutely fine with bands having patrons. I think that's a really completely legitimate fair reasonable way to support yourself in the 21st century. And I think that the way that they are structuring the patron seems to me a hell of a lot better than the load of bands before them have done fine with all of that. But the press releases have been hilarious. These kind of things that are printing this is this revolutionary new thing that a lot of the digital media has been doing for like seven years. Like Patreon is an old thing now. So let's get that other way that describing this as this revolutionary thing sounds quite silly. Moving on from that, the last song is God awful and there's no way around it. It is God awful. It's meant it's this basically them with this little piano motif that's repeated for seven and a half minutes talking about how great their fans are and how their fans have enabled them to do amazing things that they could never have imagined. They are clearly writing that as a love letter to the fans. And it's clearly coming from a really nice place and it doesn't sound like that at all. It sounds like something quite different and it's really and just on a purely musical level. It's more Kishnonsense, right? There is no way around it. That is one of the worst things I've ever heard in a metal record up there with the kids choir on who we are by machine heads. And including the second, the like half an hour instrumental section of human kind by night wish. Is human kind was that what it's called? I don't know, not the mud. I keep it's got such an unmemorable title. I keep forgetting it's title. It's one of the worst albums I've ever heard. Overall human nature. Sorry, that's it. Human human full stop colon I. I colon nature full stop like terrible album. And it's like it's terrible album and it finishes with this like half hour instrumental non-stop. that he's awful. Like this is as bad as that. The rest of the album though is totally brilliant and you should just like listen to it and not listen to the last song. Yeah, um yeah, I've listened to this album what like 10 12 times now and only on my first listen. Did I actually get through that song? I tried to get through it twice more and fail. But I voluntarily, when I haven't needed to, gone back and listened to this load. The album is fucking great. Yeah. Huge songs, really big choruses, the melodically guitar lines are absolutely superb and they're the thing that gives it that that repeat listen thing, right? It's not just you listen to it two or three times, you've got all the choruses, you can go at the live show and that's all you need to do. Like going back and experiencing those lead guitar lines again and again again is the thing that's made me go, wow, this is great. Yeah, this is still growing on me now. I mean the second song on this, you're all you need, which was I think also the second single that released from it, is not only a fucking monster riff. It's also one of the best choruses they've ever written. You know, the first time I heard that song, I had this chorus stuck on my head for days. The bridge on that though, lots, I have to give a shout out to his coming hell of a long way with his clean vocals. Yeah, his clean vocals are just yeah, they are unrecognizable from a decade ago. Exactly, like it used to be just Matt who would take the sort of clean parts, but lots can actually sing now, you know, for the fox and he's been through a lot with his vocals with all the surgeries out to open everything. So I'm really up before him on that front. Yeah, and it's always really good when someone like has vocal problems and comes back and improves, right? Yeah, like one on an emotional level, you always want that to happen for a singer, because you could think, God, how awful would it be if you were a singer? And that was really important part, your identity and you lost it. But to not just to get through it, but to come back and improve, you just go, yeah, yeah, it sounds great. Round of applause for that man. Systematic is the song for me, I think the chorus on Systematic, you know, the Ben's on the favorite. I don't know if it's my favorite. No, it's not my favorite because I'll come to that in a bit, but the bend on the riff in Systematic in the chorus is it's a great thing as fuck. It fucking well turns me on. I mean, all the gang vocals on that one too, you know, you can really imagine this one, particularly like really going off in the life setting, especially with the electronic break as well. I would imagine America would go absolutely bad shit for this. This is the kind of thing where you listen to kind of big American metal bands and what does well in the US, right? And you go to kind of the bounce on the pump and the groove on that riff is I go, yeah, not only is that really good, but if I was someone in America, I would be forgetting him on every fucking tour. Yeah, I mean, that electronic break is just wall of death territory. And those turntables, I told you Tom, the new metal revival is happening. Yeah, let's get past that. I want to talk about Kiffy Clirok, because I've never said anything nice about Biffy Clirok, because I don't like them at all. The song with Simon Neal on is for me the best song in the album. I know it's the single one, you'll all have heard it by now, but like the chorus on that is just massive. Yeah, that's the arena fucking stomping chorus, isn't it? Yeah, that is kind of radio hits territory. It's the kind of thing you hear and you just go immediately, well, that's built for the mainstream audience and would still do well at a metal show, right? It's kind of, yeah. That is heavy and accessible and it's not kind of compromising to anything that's just what they've chosen to do. They've written this thing, which is really fucking catchy and it's also really heavy and there's no there's no compromise. It's just great. Talking of guest features as well, what do you think of the song 41 song? Because I mean, it is basically a song 41 song with a couple of washing seats versus which is very weird makes what you know, I bloody love some 41. I mean, I like some 41 too. In fact, I saw some 41 blow system of a down offer stage once, Reading 2003. Yeah, Reading 2003, where system of a down what kind of they were, they would steal this album, era, which was kind of not the best era for them because they were playing a bunch of songs which weren't quite as good as their other songs and they knew it. But it was still really, they were still kind of decent, but it was it was kind of I wasn't entirely convinced that they liked each other by that point, which we now know they definitely don't. But like for some 41 on before them to just absolutely eat them was really impressive. Some 41 were fucking brilliant that day. They got slightly demolished by Metallica after that, but Metallica Reading 2003 is just a show that has lived with me for 20 years. But yeah, I think that song's all right. It is one of the more I can't remember this songs in the album. Yeah, for all of the void out. Yes, yes, yes, yes, most done that song. Yeah. So this is the one where they've got loads of their fans to sing on it, right? And that's you go that should be the last song. That should be the tribute to the last one because that works beautifully. It's incredible. That song is like two or two albums this week actually will go to the one in a bit, but yeah, the last song, the last problem. It's just ignoring that the end. The reason we call it the last song we don't name it is it's written as DN3 3HT, which is if you invert it looks like the end and it's also their postcode. And unfortunately, unfortunately, it just looks like kind of I'm in the sick form now. I've got a graphics calculator and look what it does. It's funny. It's like boobies on it upside down. Yeah, but it's like the sick form version of that, isn't it? Because you've got the calculator that does text as well. Yeah, it's that. But yeah, like I said, I've loved this band since there, debut EP since the North South or nothing, whatever you want to call that. I've never at any point thought that they could be an arena band. You know, very rarely does this sort of music sort of end up there. But yeah, cool of the void has literally had made me reconsider that. It's fucking huge. The chorus is a legitimate anthem. And it's more of a rock approach than the rest of the album, but I think it's the type of track that's going to bring in a new fan base to the band. And that is the bringing in the fans in that song as well really helps with that. I think it's a gateway step on. I really think that they should release it as a single. I would hope they do release it as a single because it is. I mean, it definitely has arena potential and it is just on a kind of is this good. It's fucking great. But I think we've spent a lot of time on while she sleeps, sleeps, sati, that album is in the jukebox now. And we should move on to my pick this week, which is the Witcher cursed be thy kingdom. And if we were going kind of quite relatively young and credible for anyone who's going to be big, this is kind of this is as old school, as you can get. The Witcher are kind of proto thrash slash speed metal with a kind of black metal tinge. Basically, imagine if tribulation listened to nothing but Killamall and welcome to hell for a year solid and then did an album, right? Yeah, there's so much tribulationisms, but it's kind of, it's that thing where they've taken something which is old and kind of predates the existence of extreme metal and filtered it through extreme metal aesthetic. And it ends up sounding like kind of the pre black metal venom or the first psaly record. And it is like if you think that sounds fun, it's way more fun than you think it sounds. It is like fast, memorable riffs with bags of energy really, really well performed. It's not just kind of sloppy. You know, we want it to sound like it's 1982. This actually sounds well made and well produced. And I'm I am so in love with this album. Yes, I had been really looking forward to this one actually based on the first couple of singles that they released from it. So as soon as they dropped in my inbox, I put it on straight away. Yeah, my god. I have a problem with this record and it's just that I cannot stop listening to it. This is also when you're in your wheelhouse. It is because it is well tried. Like you say, like Jesus Christ, every single song is so catchy. Yeah. The riffs are unbelievable. This sounds like a modern classic to me. I mean, just the actual guitar tone itself is so classic sound, yeah. But at the same time, it doesn't sound like it's not atavistic, right? It's not pretending it is 1982. It's actually well made and well recorded. And the guitar tone sounds great rather than just kind of my cab is fucked. It's like it sounds good. It just sounds kind of it sounds like it's paying nodding to the era, which it's clearly inspired by. It's a beautiful kind of way of bringing the modern and bringing the old into the modern. Yeah, I mean, some of the recent like the gallop on the lead single is it? I think the lead single. So tonic magic attack. Yeah, that song is pure Sabbath worship, which you know, I'm never going to complain about. But one thing that really stands out on that song as well is the chunk on the bass. It's so high in the mix and you really want to give that song and yeah, pretty much the full album to be fair. It just gives it so much punch. Yeah. And it's like the whole thing. It has that punch, right? It makes you foot tap. It makes your head bang. It has loads of momentum and drive and it makes you feel like you're 738 feet tall. It is just kind of one of those energizing. I am I can take on the world now records. It's so so powerful. It's just like in terms of muscles, not in terms of kind of, oh, we're really emotional thing. It's so great. I love it. Yeah, man. There's got some really cool extra flourishes as well. They're sort of tight together into a really nice, complete package. The intro of Mr. Fire sort of comes in with that organ type intro. It's great. Yeah, it makes it sound like it's going to be something else. Doesn't it? It sounds like they're about to go well goth. The chimes all over the value of the ribbons and the super bluesy guitar solo on that one out of nowhere. And then at the beginning of the weirdo's blade, this sounds like there's a torque box. It's very strange, but it really works. Yeah. I think we also have to give a huge amount of credit to unholy weaver of shadows and incantations, which is the stage name. for Matt Litton, the singer/guitarist, who's really, one of these guitar playing is fantastic, that's really holds everything together, I think, as much as everything else. And the riffs are fucking great, and the fact that they've taken such a relatively simple form of metal, but managed to speed it up and still make it really, really catchy, rather than just be a base to B-A-S-E, a foundation of the structure, is really impressive, but his vocals, man, I was kind of go, "Why do I love his vocals so much?" Yes, you can hear the lyrics and the hooks are really good, but it's not just that, and yes, he sounds quirky and evil, but what is it? Oh, he sounds quite a lot like Abarth, that'll do it, because in more obviously being my favorite band of all time, it's not quite that frosty and it's not quite that deep, but I heard this and just went, "Yeah, these two have probably got the same record collection." I don't know if he's actually listened to it more than at all, but knowing what Abarth listens to, how much he loves him, moat ahead and venom, it wouldn't surprise me if the bands that they've grown up on are fairly similar, and that's why they've kind of ended up with a similar kind of delivery, but it's so, it does exactly the same thing that Abarth does when he's not trying to do epic, which is that it's just kind of, it just is catchy and sounds evil at the same time, and you can still hear what he's saying, and yeah, I so much, so, so much praise for just everything about this album, but particularly the vocals, because this kind of vocals where it is a croak, it can be incredibly dull and monotonous, right? And it's the opposite of that. Yeah, it's interesting as well, actually, because I didn't know until you just said that the vocalist is also the guitarist, which makes a lot of sense, because I was going to say the vocals follow the guitar melodies a lot. Yeah, and also the rich, which is one of those tropes I have a bit of a sucker for, so that all makes sense now. Yeah, I mean, the bit in satanic, you mentioned satanic magic attack, which for me is one of the two best songs in the album, where it goes satanic magic attack, like he's following the riff rhythm perfectly, and it's like he's so perfectly in time, and I think the fact that he's doing both of those both parts is partially why it's so kind of perfectly in tune, because he's feeling it rather than necessarily thinking about it. Yeah, most of our track for this is the last song. Yeah, that's fucking great too. It's unbelievable. I mean, yes, it is literally just the riff from Metallica's all night, more long, but that is a very rich. No, it's not. You take that back. No, it's not. It might be parallel evolution, but it's not that sloppy. He is, he's like, he's, yeah, but it's better recorded. It's similar, but it's not the same. I mean, death magnetic as time's gone on, I've hated more and more, because it's one of those albums that you go back to and you just hear the flaws more every time. Like I don't want to be don't put that into my head. It's nothing to do with it. I do not want to think about that badly recorded awful sloppy mess. Yeah, that kind of that kind of that kind of first attempt at making baking a pie out in album form. Come on now. No, it is it's like, it's like you know, if they if MasterChef had like the X factor contestant thing where they have the the people who cannot sing and they laugh at them and but they had that with baking, right? That is what death magnetic is of an album. I do not want to be thinking of that while I listen to this fucking perfectly formed beautiful curry. Anyway, the it's the way on that song that the vocalist manages to carry the melody through. You know, he's not screaming like he said it's a sort of it's a crack croaks or thing here, but it's, you know, it's not a clean vocal. He makes it. He makes all the vocals. Oh my god, don't do that. That's well weirder my ears. Sorry. It's all his vocals sound really catchy, which is well impressive. I'm this song is an absolute earwhip and I'm already just really looking forward to the follow up from this band. Yeah, I mean, it's their third album and so I would absolutely encourage anyone who likes this to go back and listen to the first two, but they've kind of good. I think they're I don't think it quite as well recorded because they're on century media now. So they've probably got a bit more money. I'm going to go listen to those after we record. I think they're bloody good. This kind of I think this to me marries up the areas perhaps a little bit better. The older ones are a little bit more old school, but they are bloody great still. So, you know, I think this I would say this is their best record. I think that's what it's very good. It is very, very good. But we've probably got the gist of that. Curse Be Thy Kingdom by Bawitches in the jukebox now. And while we will have more music for you next week in the shape of two very, very different records, possibly even more different than this week. That is time at Hakekri Gaba. And that's about all we have time for this week. Matt, I would say this has been great as always, but I think we've both had a pretty horrible time until we got to the Hakekri Gaba. Yeah, hopefully about to a normal show next week. I mean, whatever that means, we hopefully know what they'll have a warrant. I don't think we do normal, but at least we can, if we can cheerful and weird would be better. But we will be back next week with a much happier show we hope. Until then, listen to while she sleeps. Listen to Be Thy Witcher and remember it does get better. See you later. Ta-ra.