233 - Crafting Great Performance-Driven Creative, with John Solomon, CMO of Therabody

Welcome to the Marketing Millennials, the no BS Marketing Podcast. I'm Daniel Murray. Enjoy me for unfiltered conversations with the brains behind marketing's coolest companies. The one request I tell our guests, stories or it didn't happen. I'm ready to turn the fuck up. I hate this notion of performance and brand marketing. Everything is about what's driving the performance of the business and marketing has to be always thinking about performance. I think that I would die on the hill that like all marketing is growth marketing, all marketing's performance marketing. What's up everybody? Welcome back to the Marketing Millennials Podcast. Today, I have the CMO of Derribody on the podcast. I love their products, use them all the time, can't wait to get into this conversation. I'll let John give a little intro on how he got into marketing. I'm trying to make marketing a little bit more fun than most pods and Instagram accounts are in marketing. Let's see, I got into marketing. I was a political science major in school, so I don't think I ever thought I would get into marketing. It's not something I probably set out to do, but I grew up in the Bay Area and Silicon Valley during the.com boom in the late '90s, and it was really into digital and early on was on, I guess, since this is a Millennials pod, probably remember some of these things, but like AOL and instant messenger and all these things early internet days. I've always been kind of a nerd and I always loved digital and I think after I found my way in some marketing by kind of first starting the consulting world just looking for a job out of school, living in DC, and then kind of fell into the consulting world and from there I was working with companies that were trying to go enter different markets and figure out their marketing strategy and so yeah, I kind of made my way, I was in China for a number of years and got to have a great experience out there, then I was on the agency side at KQA and then from there I went to Beats by Dre, let all of kind of e-com and digital there and then Apple acquired us, it's continued to work on the Beats side but then eventually went over to the Apple side as they were kind of looking at how do they evolve their marketing into being more digital and social. So went over there on the Apple side for another four years and was able to do both hardware but also got to do some of the new digital services they did so helped launch Apple Fitness Plus and then actually helped launch Apple TV Plus which was their big foray into entertainment which was really exciting. And then during COVID, you know, kind of TheraBody reached out as a huge fan of the product, avid cyclists, had a TheraGun but didn't kind of realize all else that the company had built and so joined them about two and a half years ago as their CMO and they've been having an awesome time really, really enjoying it and so yeah, now here we are. Well that's, I mean, the resume speaks for itself, Beats by Dre, Apple and now TheraBody those are all like amazing brands who've been a part of it, it's cool that we get a chat but the conversation I want to go into is a lot of marketers get stuck into this predicament that they aren't driving business goals or their marketing is not leading to business goals. So I want you to break it down how to set your marketing up for success so it is driving the goals that the business actually wants. I think it's a great question and the reason I wanted to join the TheraBody was I, you know, even though Apple's amazing, right, company but it is a big machine. So I think sometimes when you're really big companies it can be challenging to feel that marketing is really driving business so I also think it's about finding the right size of business that you like to be at because you could be at a very, very small early-stage startup all the way to a really big company and it'll be very, very different. So that's why I really liked like the Beats level and TheraBody level company because you're still, you have really good product market fit but you're not so big and you can still really inform strategy and drive the business so, you know, I think what it really starts with is you really have to have clear goals of the company, right, and laying out the strategy of the company. A lot of companies I've been at, that's not always the case, right, you're, it's not having clarity on strategy from the very, very top because marketing can be pointed in many different directions. Marketing could say let's go deeper on an existing audience, let's expand to a new audience, let's change our product mix our portfolio. So what I've found is having really, really pushing for really strong and clear strategy at the top is always where I start and then everything has to ladder down from that. So depending on what it is in the top, then marketing needs to distill those down and how's marketing going to help, you know, to accomplish those goals. And I think it's really, really key to understand also the type of business you're at, right, being at a, I spent a lot of times a consumer product companies, but it could be very different to be to be company if it's a digital services company. So I think understanding really the type of organization you're in, the type of business model. So then you can have clear metrics and KPIs of actually how you drive the business. So for me, you know, just, just to give it a, you know, at TheraBody, we have very clear goals that align, you know, up to the top that everyone's measured against in terms of sales goals in terms of, you know, profitability goals. And so then it's from me and my team to break down and how we're going to, to hit those, right? And working really, really closely with the CEO, working really closely with the finance team. I think it's essential that we have a very close relationship with the finance team and they understand how you are measuring and are aligned with your measurements. And then working very, very closely with the sales organization and then, you know, in my case, consumer goods company, you have to work really close for, for product. So that's, that's kind of where, where I, you know, I come at it, I, I think marketing can have a really, really strong role to play in overall strategy because ultimately marketing should be the voice of the customer, right? And ultimately should drive throughout the organization through insights through knowing the customer, talking with the customer every day, exactly. And then from there, help to shape strategy. And so just, just as an example, you know, with TheraBody, you know, we, historically, we grew, you know, on the backs of kind of like weekend warriors, fitness enthusiasts, professionals, teams. And we were able to have a phenomenal growth, especially during COVID, when people weren't able to see their, you know, physical therapists, their trainers, their chiro's. But what we then found is that audience, you know, you don't buy a TheraGon every year, right? So the thing in consumer goods, and same with, with headphones, with I was at beats, like, you don't buy a pair of beats every year. So you're continuing to have to expand for new audiences. So what we really developed was a strategy of saying, how do we go and how do we expand our audience and how do we go after and drive a strategy around that, not walk away from that performance audience, but start to now expand in new areas. And so from marketing, we developed a new strategy for the business that was around kind of we had performance, we had wellness, and we had beauty, which is kind of this new beauty tech area that we've been leaning into with a few products there. And so we were able to kind of from there, align our whole company strategy around those three verticals that each had unique audiences. And then we were able to map products to it, positioning to it, packaging, merchandising. And we were really able to drive the company in that direction. And it all started with kind of like understanding the consumer, understanding the categories we're in. And then we were able to drive it and then have clear KPIs about, are we reaching those new audiences, are we penetrating them, are we bringing them down into the funnel? And so it's very clear, it's very clear now how we move our metrics, which is ultimately sales, but how we're doing it through the key marketing KPIs. And I'm happy to go in any sorts of different details or directions based on some of that kind of overview. The two directions I would want to go down is one, how to bring that voice of the customer into the marketing plan very, very distinctly. And the second one is once you've aligned what the overall strategy is with the CEO, finance, product, all that stuff, what is those goals that you are setting with your marketing team to be able to say like, okay, a VP of Ecom, you doing, this is your recall, retail you do. your team set up. But just how do you get from high level strategy to what are the goals at each department or what is the marketing of the whole need to achieve? So I would say first that we invest in consumer research, right? So we do invest in really understanding from a qualitative, a quantitative, obviously, there's a lot of information out there. If you look at social, if you look at product reviews, we have 20 store locations around the country. So the marketing team spends, you know, we require every one at least one supporter to go and work either event or go and work in a store to just be constantly in front of our customer and kind of understanding them. And so we take all those insights and ultimately filter them into key insights on the consumers and we develop segmentations and we develop kind of targets understanding their behaviors. So all of that gets, you know, distilled in the marketing team and then get shared at executive level. And then that could share down through a company level. We also when we're doing focus groups and we will invite other teams in so invite the product team will invite the sales team so everyone can really hear the voice of the customer. So it's really our job to continue to feed those customer insights, the voice the customer into the organization and constantly be sharing it. So it doesn't become as subjective. And it's really aligned to exactly those customers needs. So that's that's number one. And I think really I cannot emphasize enough the importance of doing that work, because then you stop having, you know, debates and you really have the data to drive how you're executing a plan. Secondly, you know, from there, I would look at, you know, setting up the key goals for the organization. So for me, again, if you go to the goal of like expanding our audience, it's really a we'll do a awareness study, right, to see how much awareness we have with those audiences. And then we want to increase that awareness and penetration over time through our marketing. And then we want to drive down more people into consideration. So again, we'll use, so we kind of use reach metrics to see how we reach we're reaching our audiences and at what frequency, then we'll look at other indicators of like, for example, like search is a great proxy are people searching increasingly, you know, for your products, right, or their social conversation about your products are those are those going up, are we getting more site traffic? So there's all a lot of like proxies will look at throughout the year, and then ultimately, are we driving into conversion, right? Are we getting either people into our mailing list? Are we getting people to buy products? And then we're looking at that across the whole ecosystem, right? So we have Amazon, we have ECOM, we have our retailers, you know, best by targets, and seeing how it's doing across those organizations as well. And then so you kind of have those audiences fancy of the digital journey. And then a big, big part of us is also just continuing the thought leadership work. So we do invest a lot of time and effort into having our executives out and talk, I mean, kind of what we're doing here, right? Having our executives talking about the brand, talking about the space continues to be, you know, thought leadership's last year, we won times, one of times most innovative companies, fast company. So would put a lot of goals around our teams to get kind of earned media and continue to get more conversation out there about the brand, which is always really important. You know, when when I was at beats, being at a kind of cultural brand, it was always about, you know, is the brand and the cultural conversation, you know, are people talking about you? Are you doing things at the right times, whether it's showing up at the World Cup or showing up at the NBA All-Star Game, or, you know, you want to have that continue to be top of mind, so that when consumers get into certain buying moments, where a heavily seasonal business, right? So things like Valentine's days or Mother's Day or holiday or big opportunities for us. But we have to stay top of mind. So when you when you start getting consumers to consider their thinking of you. So those are just some of the ways that I have the team, organized and thinking about our goals. Two things that I got out of that is one, the power of what you're doing with internal marketing and aligning all those teams beforehand helps not create confusion after the fact, because you said, Hey, this is what customers are saying. So the product, I'm telling you exactly what people are saying are good, bad, ugly, working, not working, what they like, finance and telling you this, sales and telling you this, everybody on the organization I'm telling you this, say, you know, up front, so you can incorporate that. And then everybody's also thinking customer first, the whole, the whole organization. And then one thing I wanted to go into is we were talking about awareness and consideration. How much do you split the budget between doing awareness campaigns to get more people in the funnel versus that consideration versus the going even bottom of the funnel? It's a great question. And it's the, you know, like it's like every marketer's challenge right now. The way I look at it is, I really don't like this whole notion of you have growth marketing, you have performance marketing, brand marketing, the end of the day, it's all marketing. And in the end of the day, it all has to perform. I'm a big believer that everyone needs to be integrated. They have to be working together. There's different tactics. But where I've found that you kind of have siloed teams with different incentives, it just doesn't work. So I have, for example, my media, my media team, they think about media holistically, whether it's TV, whether it's a search or affiliates, right? They are, that's who I look for, people who can understand how it all works together. So the way I think about it is demand creation and demand capture. Like those are the two basic things you need to do in marketing. And it really depends where you are, right? So if I were to talk to you about the athlete, you know, I would say there's a, there's a good amount of brand awareness of like weekend warriors of Sarah gun. That's who we've kind of growing with. So if I was a look at that audience, I would probably say it's like 80% demand capture. We need to make sure they understand that we have a new product that we have an innovation, a lot of them are on our email database. And we know that we can, we can engage with them, right? If I'm talking about a new audience, we want to go after it, right? Let's say pickleball players. Maybe they don't know about us as much, right? It's a, it's a more aging population. They're starting to get more injuries. So now, maybe I would do 70 80% demand creation. Because what I first have to get into there, I have to be even aware that they're going is, is for them, you know, you know, it isn't just for the most serious athletes, they then have to get in that kind of consideration. But if they're, if they're not even aware that our products can help them for let's say the increasing injuries are getting, I can be doing all this demand capture. And it's just not going to matter. So I really look at it as like an audience based approach where we are. And then also time of year, right? There's certain times of year where, like I said, we know when our big buying moments are, that's where we might ramp up, you know, more of the demand capture performance marketing. But, you know, leading into it, we might be doing some above the line too. So we're constantly testing that and evolving it. The thing I would say is it all needs to work together, right? And now there's just so much more ability to get the data and understand how it's all improving. Because we can see, if we run TV, we can immediately see people, you know, coming to our site, you know, we can see people searching for us. So I think Don are the days where you just did a lot of media and you didn't understand how it performed. You should be able to see how it performs and you should be able to test it to understand with a specific audience how it works. And, you know, for example, our beauty products, that's great place for that is TikTok, you know, it's a younger, it's a younger audience. And so we go there. So, so again, it's really that audience based approach that I believe you have to take to fine tune that model. I also think I'll give you an example of like my experience because so I obviously, athlete, knew of terror gun because yeah. And when I was playing, there's terror guns. There's also when you go like chiropractors, there's always out there guns. But then my mother-in-law plays tennis too. And I saw you guys were doing a black Friday sale and I wasn't in like the mood to buy, but I saw you had something for backs and heating and vibration. So I was just like, Hey, I'm a fan of their body. I'm going to tell my mother-in-law who probably has never heard of their body in their life. But I know it's good product on the other stink products used. I'm going to tell her that she should use that. But just because you targeted me, I also brought it to a new community of because a lot of times like people don't understand that like the sons or the are buying things for their their mothers are older people and older people are buying. So it's that whole a secret approach or think you have on those buying experiences who's going to be buying the gift for who and all that stuff. So I like that integrated approach that you it is harder to target to right targeting is getting harder with all of the privacy being put in place and limiting cookies. But so that's why do you think you you can also over target right like I could go so finally that I'm not hitting try to get to your mom, where your mom is like, "I'm not going to buy this for myself." Like, I don't, you know, I'm not used to tech solving these problems, but you would see that, and you would then see those opportunities. So I also think that, like, you can over-target, you still want to, you know, you still want to reach and relate to a broadest audience as you can. But the reality is, like, you need to know that their body also has products that aren't just for athletes, right? And that we need to make sure that we're getting that message across. So I do think that it's a balanced, you know, just exactly for the point that you bring up, that you're not always buying for yourself, right? You are a lot of times gifting and buying for others, especially with our products. Also, I think we're in the age of the creative is becoming more of the targeting, because targeting is getting harder. So you have to do creative, whatever you and your creative, that's what you're targeting with. You can go broader on targeting, but whatever is in the creative is going to spark someone's reaction to do something. Yeah, yeah. It's a great point. And we launched last fall. We launched a new campaign, and it was called the workout called life. And it was all around this insight of, like, most consumers, even if they say I'm not like an athlete, or I go to the gym all the time, you know, they're working out, right? And they're they're taxing their body. We did six vignettes, six different characters. And we had a nurse, you know, we had a nurse, a dad, a mom, a white color professional worker, a delivery driver, and a grandpa with his grandkids. And we shot basically kind of these six different scenes or vignettes. So we could have the ability to either target, right? Or we can mash them up. And we can kind of bring them all together. And kind of creatively, we could put, you know, we could do it all female one around Mother's Day, right? And all male one around Father's Day. And so we could do exactly that. It was like the casting and the situations was helping us to do the targeting. You already have a strong appearance and an athlete, weak and warrior. But there is still a pain point in the other sections like someone who is going to work out or go for run. And they're not seen as like a marathon runner or something. Still is going to get get sore and have soreness or going going into my mother-in-law example. She wouldn't be seen as a star tennis player, but she plays tennis enough that her back hurts. So she needs something to cure her back when she comes home from that. It's those little moments in life where there is pain created or would you say like a delivery driver is carrying a lot of boxes in a day. Like they're getting sore. Every soreness is just part of life. And you can kind of add that. But that's more of showing awareness that the problem is not only it could be solved for not just every day athletes who are playing at a high level. Everybody has this problem. That was really the insight when we did you know that with our customers it was a lot of the athletes and professionals like hey this is I love your product like a football player, right? Like you're like I need something really strong. I need the best of the best to penetrate my you know sore muscles, but my mom might not need the same, right? And how can well can we help her, right? Some people will be like that's that's to intense or I might not need all those features. So we then that led to again back to like the product strategy, the positioning to say okay now we have a series of different products for different you know types of consumers. I mean you could even see what apples done, right? And with the watch like they came out with a kind of ultra watch for the outdoors endurance people, but then they have a regular watch. They have the watch SC, right? And so you have the ability to kind of have different tiers and hit different consumers and price points as well. But the challenges how do you how do you do that? So it all makes sense as a as a brand, right? Because you also can't be always appear to be for everything for everybody, right? Because then you're for nobody. But also I think it works of what you said in the beginning where you distilled this information down to the product team and everybody else. So yeah, the Thera Gun might be for someone who's an athlete who goes intense and wants that hard or massage, but now you've got that market. Now you can innovate and start saying okay maybe I need to make something that might be softer, that might be heating, might be this for someone who's not. So you can use product as a way to do that, but if you did, if you didn't distill that information down or the marketing doesn't distill that information down by reviews and all that stuff or talking to customers, you guys probably could have just been a gun or something like that and then you would have just captured kind of run out of places to capture athletes who like that type of stuff. So yeah, exactly. And I think that's why it goes back to, I think when you're starting out as a company rate, I mean Thera Body is not that old of a company. I mean you do go on gut and intuition and you know, if you have product market fit, you should be able to reach that your consumers that are right there and ready, right? So you can get that kind of low-hanging fruit who get it right away. But I think as you grow and then you have to scale and continue to grow, that's where I think the really getting and doing those insights, you know, we would even just show some consumer groups like the box and the packaging and get feedback. And now and people, and even we would have some female customers would say, this feels like not a product for me, you know, it's it's black, it's aggressive, it's a kid doesn't even say like what the features are, you know, the benefits on the packaging. So it really, I think that kind of insight work really, really does help. And like you said, then you have to market internally. I think a lot of marketers sometimes forget that like you also have to like internally sell what you're doing, sell the vision so that you keep on on task and people kind of see what the overall vision and strategy is. I mean, I think a lot of marketers focus so much externally, which that's your job. But internally is really, really important as well, especially, you know, and you can't see everything, right? Like a lot of times it's social media, paid ads, like people don't even see half the stuff, right? Especially when the days that now there's so many channels now, and everybody's attention is split up. I mean, even like two years ago when people at home drink COVID, the channels were smaller because TikTok was just rising. And you short term video, now there's even more places that people are consuming. And you made also a good point about that insights from benefits on the packaging because one thing my mother-law was telling me to tell you is like one of the benefits of that the heating, back thing was, was that you don't have to plug it in, you can go on the move, like with that and her other, she's like, what's the difference with when my heating pad I have at home in this? I'm like, well, you can walk around with this. It's also like, I trust their body because their products are made for athletes and not just so I had to do the explaining as knee as a consumer, but sometimes you have to think about maybe it's easy for an athlete to understand because they know it, but that mom or that delivery driver may not do it or if they get it as a gift, they may not know what this actually does with them and how it can help them. Yeah, one of the things we did, and that can lead to returns, right? I think that's a big challenge in consumer electronics is hidden costs such as returns, right? Because people get it, I don't know how to use this. I don't see the value in it. So one thing we did is when we redid our packaging last year, within the products, we actually, in addition to being able to scan a QR code and getting information or getting the app, which has routines, not everyone is going to want an app, not everyone's going to want to scan a QR code. So we actually put physical cards in the box that actually had some kind of routines to get going, right? So if you have Technic for Theragon, or if you have lower back pain, it'll actually show you what's setting, what attachment to use for how long and show you actually where to use it on the body. So it's a bit old school to think about putting paper instructions in the box, but if that's a consumer trying to go do, which is beyond an early adopter, who's just very tech-forward and, you know, we use an app, again, that was like, what we were able to find out is like, how did people want to be educated, right? Like, what are all the different ways? And so that's something that we started doing, very successful, that people were like, oh, now I know how to use this product right away, and I can get going. It's also what you would do it could do with what you were talking about before, for that awareness audience, that's probably going to be more of that educational stuff, where, you know, you have lower back pain, like, this is how people use it for lower back pain, but for like an athlete, you could just probably show someone running, they come home, they store, they just take their gun out and use it, but then the top thing is more like, Oh, I have a look. back and then you show them using the product, how it easily to do it, like it's a different ball game for two of those different audiences and you have to think about when you're doing your ads and marketing. Yeah, even like the influencers you use, right, like we've worked with people like Ronaldo and James Harden and that might relate to you as an athlete, but that might not relate to your mother-in-law, right, because she's like I'm not an athlete, so again, it's different approaches, right, and maybe even like not even using influencers all, but it might be direct response TV, you know, on cable that really shows how you can really, you know, what's the problem you're solving for, right, and giving them, you know, a number to call if they would like to talk to someone about it. One of the last questions out for you, I just want to ask, okay, so Valentine's Day just came up. What is that process like, how long beforehand are you planning for that campaign and what is the pieces you could give a high level, but what are the pieces that go into it before a Valentine's Day launch? So about like four months, I'll give you like real brass tax here. So like four months out, like the brand team would kick off like a brief, right, and they would say, Valentine's Day, we have these products, these are the promotions, these are all the markets, you know, that we're going to be showing up at. And ultimately, that'll be a brief to, you know, our internal creative team. And they'll come back with a usually for more of a promotion, they'll come back with an overall look and feel, and a kind of copy direction, right, so be like, here's how the layout, you know, all the layouts we need, so homepage, email, social post, paid ad, here it is around a kind of core idea. And then ultimately kind of copy lines, and then we'll review that, we'll kind of align on what that essentially campaign will look like. And then all the other functions, so that's kind of for your basic kind of like toolkit, right? And that's what retailers can use, that's what we can use websites, we can use emails that they're all pulling off of those tool kits, sometimes we'll do a spoke shoot for it, right? So sometimes we have enough assets because we've done enough, or we're going to do a specific shoot. And then each of the functions will come back with ideas as well. So socials say, hey, I'm going to do, you know, I don't know, count down to Valentine's Day, you know, campaign, or PR will come back and say, hey, you know, we're going to look to get, you know, these types of articles or these types of gift guides to talk about how, you know, our products are great for Valentine's Day gift, influencer will come back and say, okay, you know, we're going to get these influencers based on the audiences and have them talk about, this is a great gift for blanking your life, right? It could be your boyfriend, your husband, you know, whoever it might be. So then all the kind of functions will come back together, and then they'll kind of come up with the, you know, the brand teams leading that, and they'll come back with an integrated plan. So ultimately, you know, it's presented to me, I'll review it, give feedback on. And then we will go out and execute that, right? And usually it's a multi-week promo. And so we'll optimize along the way if certain things are working, different creatives working, different, you know, promo deals, and we'll kind of continue to optimize. And so that would be, for example, kind of like more of our promo level, where I could say it's a little more brass tax, you know, promo campaign versus having a really, really big, I would say, you know, mass campaign, but that's how we would approach it. If that makes sense. It makes sense. And you also like think about, okay, for this, we want to bundle on the website for these products, because this would be a good bundle for, if the wife's buying for her husband or something, like you think about that with like the key column team or like the merchandising and figure out how to do this. Exactly. So like they'll come back to email and, you know, Web team will come back and say, hey, you know, it's, yeah, like leading up to it, we'll do these kinds of, you know, buy one product, get another one, you know, 15% off, or Galentine's day is, you know, is big. So let's have a special offer and talk about that, right? And yeah, you know, kind of the different use cases that you might have, we're actually right now going through Father's Day, actually, right, you know, and kind of looking at for Father's Day and how do we have like a little bit of fun with dad and, you know, as a new dad, there's no shortage of like dad jokes and stuff, but, you know, like the copy team had some, some great lines, you know, we have a, we have a TheraFace device that is kind of more of a beauty product and one of the lines is like, you know, dad hasn't washed this face since the 80s, like they get him like the TheraFace, you know, it's also some, some humor in it, right? Or just to kind of, you know, align to, you know, the cultural zeitgeist a bit. So you know, have some fun too, you want to have some hooks, you know, you can't be like serious, benefit driven all the time, but you have to like find ways to like shoehorn it in. So we're constantly getting ahead of all the next big moments. I'm a big believer that kind of have that integrated approach. You have the brand team at the center, they're driving the briefs, the integrated plans and then all the functions kind of are in support of that for kind of the key campaigns and also are, you know, product launches and I think I mean, the brand team knowing the company goals that like we're trying to drive X, Y and Z also makes the brand team not seen as the pretty imagery team. They give their scene as like a core function of like, because they understand briefing, they understand creative, they understand that. But if you get a brand person who understands, okay, we have to get awareness out to him, we also have to drive actual sales and you have like a strong brand and creative team if they can make create a, I mean, data and creative. You have to, I mean, I think gone are the days of brand teams that just made like advertising and made nice work, our comms, you know, our brand team is who leads, you know, the consumer research, right? And those are the ones who are leading that, they're the ones who's distilling it out, they're the ones who's sharing it out, and then they're the ones who are ultimately building briefs based off the insights and the data. You have to be curious, you have to be good with data, and then you have to understand how to make strategies and ultimately creative, because the work is only going to be as good as the brief, right? If the brief isn't good, if the brief isn't tight, you're not going to get good creative work, right? You're not going to get it from your agency, you're not going to get it internally. So it's so critical to get a really, really good brief to ensure that you can get really smart and creative work. What is a marketing kill you would die on? I would probably die on the, what I'd thought to develop before is, I hate this notion of performance and brand marketing. Everything is about what's driving the performance of the business, and marketing has to be always thinking about performance. I think that I would die on the hill that all marketing is growth marketing, all marketing's performance marketing, go on or those days where you're just going to go and, I mean, maybe some companies just have so much money to spend that they just don't always care on an ROI, but I'm assuming anyone probably listen to this podcast has some sort of ROI goals or performance, so we measure every function, whether you're influencers, whether you're PR, whether you're anything, any function, you know, you all have things that you're measuring you're looking at. I strongly believe in, you know, I'm a big fan of, you know, Olga V and, you know, he said, you know, the best creative is the creative of its cells, you know, there's no such thing as creative that doesn't sell. It's not creative then, at least in marketing, so I'm a big, I'm a big believer in proponent of that. Yeah, someone said the day like, creative that doesn't sell is just an art project or something. Which I thought was hilarious, someone said I forgot I said it, but it's hilarious. Last, last thing I have to use, where could we find what you're doing, TheraBody's doing, all that good stuff. Yeah. TheraBody.com, that's where we're at, obviously we have all the social channels. I'm most active on, probably LinkedIn, so you can find me, find me on LinkedIn, probably the best way to reach me is to just message me there, try to go get through to them. And yeah, that's where you can find either the company or myself. Yeah, go, if you haven't checked out TheraBody, go check it out. I have the gun, I actually have the big gun and the mini gun, because you have to have one way when you're traveling as well. It's all you know. Yeah. So you need both, so I appreciate having you on and thank you so much. Yeah, Daniel, really appreciate it, really enjoyed the conversation. Thanks so much for listening. Tune in next week to hear more great insights from marketing schoolers operators. If you haven't already, please consider subscribing to the Marketing Millenus Podcast and giving you enough five-star rating. It helps bring more martyrs. is into our community.