#2301 - Ben Lamm

(upbeat music) - Joe Rogan, why don't you check it out? - The Joe Rogan experience. - Shrink my day, Joe Rogan podcast my night all day. (upbeat music) - Well, it's up Ben. - Hey, thanks so much for having my pleasure. Very nice to meet you, man. So, why don't you, instead of me, explain to people what you do. So, I'm the CEO and co-founder of a company called Colossal Biosciences, where the world's first de-extinction and species preservation company. - Yeah, and that is a wild thing. I mean, this is essentially, literally wild. This is essentially real life Jurassic Park. - Yeah, we get this Jurassic Park occasionally. Like, believe it or not, we get that. - Of course. - I mean, I dropped my hydrogen tablet in there. - Oh, you do the Gary Breckler once, right? - I'm always great. - Yeah, so. - Yeah, I love those. I just didn't want you to think it was, we were going in a different direction. How did you get started even thinking about doing something like this? - So, I kind of fell into it. I didn't plan, I didn't wake up and say, I saw Jurassic Park, I'm super stoked. I love animals, I want to go work on this. I'm just a weirdly curious person. So, there's this guy named George Church. If you don't know George, you should look him up. He's the father of synthetic biology at Harvard University. He's six foot seven with narcolepsy. He's just the best, right? So, if you ever had a Monty, may fall asleep during the podcast, but he's the absolute best. He's a genius. And I thought my background's in software and just building teams of people that are smarter than me, right? And so, I was interested in synthetic biology, this idea that we could engineer life and that we could use AI and compute to make it even better. How do we do directed evolution and how that can apply to crops and animals and all kinds of stuff? So, I get on the phone with George and I ask him my questions. He answers him in like six seconds 'cause he's a genius. And then I start asking about all the other weird stuff that's coming out of his lab. In that process, he's like, you know, I've also been working on Mammus and other things, I was like, wait, wait, what? And I was like, if you had one project, what is it, this Mammoth project? And then he went down this whole path about how he'd bring back Mammus, reintroducing the Arctic, help the ecosystem, use those technologies for conservation, use those technologies for human healthcare. And I kind of thought it was a fucking joke. I literally thought that like this smartest man that I've ever met and been on the phone with was a joke. Well, then I stayed up all night, just Googling George and there was this weird Mammoth line. Whether he was in 60 minutes or, you know, Stephen Colbert, whatever he's in, there was this weird Mammoth through line where he was just obsessed with these Mammus and everyone wanted him to do this. So I called him back the next day, seven days later I met his lab and we were off to the races on, okay, we're gonna try to go build a company to bring back six weeks. So how do you decide what to start with? So we started with the Mammoth first, right? 'Cause George, you know, had been working on it for eight years. We needed his core technologies. We thought that there was a huge application at Elephant Conservation. There was some ecological modeling that had been done to show us that the reintroduction of Mammus back into the wild could actually have a net benefit to the ecosystem. And so that was an easy place to start. After we launched the company, it went crazy viral and all these other folks from the extinction research started calling us like folks from like the Dylacene or Tasman Tiger, which looks like a mythical creature, it's awesome. The best should appear with the dodo. Everyone just started calling us and then we just started expanding, you know, our entire set. - So how does one do this? It's like, before we get to what you showed me earlier, which is fucking amazing. Before that, how does one do this? Like from what I understand, you have to take the gene of an Indian elephant, which is the closest thing to a Mammoth? - Yeah, let me walk through the whole process. So first you have to find ancient DNA, which is pretty shitty on a good day. So the minute we take DNA out of our bodies or out of anything, it starts to degrade at an insanely rapid rate. So we definitely need to find a lot of samples. So we actually have about 109 Mammoth samples ranging from 3,000 years old to 1.2 million years old, which is awesome. But it's also fragment, it's like a shitty jigsaw puzzle that you don't know what the box is and someone's stolen part of the puzzle and then oh, by the way, people have taken other puzzle pieces and put them in there. So there's all kinds of problems with that. So this is really an AI and compute problem. It's not as much a human problem. So you have to get a lot of samples first. And then you have to start mapping them to their closest living relative. And genotyping allows us to understand that that's Asian elephants, right? So Asian elephants are 99.6% the same as Mammoths. They're actually closer related to Mammoths than they are to African elephants. - Really? - Yeah, which always blows people mind that. And the fact that Mammoths were alive when we were building the pyramids or aliens or whoever was building the pyramids. Like literally, humans were building the pyramids while Mammoths existed. And sometimes that blows people's mind 'cause they always think of them as in this like weird, like prehistoric, like 65 million years old dinosaur. - When did they go extinct? - So the last one went extinct about 4,000 years ago. - Really? - On Rangal Island, yeah. - Wow. - So they've been around for a long time. - 4,000 years ago. - I know, they weren't, I mean, now they appeared about two and a half million years ago as far as we understand. And they were mostly a plycestine species. But as we moved into the Holocene and kind of the period that we're in right now, they existed. They existed all the way up until they had this like small genetic bottleneck on Rangal Island. - Wow, where's Rangal Island? - It's northeast of Siberia. - Whoa. And they just, was it a small island? They just ran out of resources there? Like what happened? - Well, there's a couple different theories, right? One of the theories with Rangal Island is that they actually, there's lots of inbreeding. So there's lots of like genetic bottleneck which happened because there's not a different species there. - How large is Rangal Island? I'm not quite sure. - Can you give me a photo again, Jamie? - I'll follow a map one. - Okay. And so essentially though, Rangal Island and then there's another island called St. Paul Island, which is also between Alaska and the United Russia, also is where they were. There's kind of the last two places that we know Mammus existed today. - And they died off 4,000 years ago. - Yeah, and now some actually, there is actually another working hypothesis that they actually ran out of water. They ran out of access to fresh water on the island. - Oh wow. - So some combination of genetic bottleneck and that occurred. - Wow, 4,000 years is so recent. - I know, it's crazy recent, right? - Jamie, can you please pull up a photo of an Asian elephant versus an African elephant? - And they're actually Mammus, because there's, you know, Mammus themselves, yeah. Mammus themselves are close related to the Asian elephant. - Yeah, which is on the left. So they have that dome cranium. They have the small ears. They have a little bit of a hump structure. You know, Mammus, because they have these massive, massive tusks, right? And, you know, you've talked to lots of folks in kind of the mammoth world. They actually, you know, moved their heads quite slowly. They had to, you know, they had to have this entire ridge of extra muscle in order to do that. But one of the things that's awesome also about the Asian elephants is some Asian elephants, some of the ones that are born actually have, they look, they're not mammoth like, but they have a lot of fur on them and they kind of lose it over time. - Wow. So are those the ones that you would find like in Thailand? - Yes. And Thailand and then parts of, different parts of India and the Indian Subcars. - I actually rode one of those ones with my family. - I don't recommend that. - Did you get one of those places that you like? - Yeah. - Take care of one of them. - Yeah. - You have to like get a relationship with them. So you feed them sugarcane and you wash them. And you know, you play nice with them for like a while. A couple of hours. It was like at least an hour. You're just hanging out with them, patting them. And then once they decide you're cool, they let you ride them. - Yeah. - But my whole family rode them. And I was like totally opposed to it. I was like, I'm doing it just 'cause you guys want to do it. I just want to feed them. - Yeah. - Just want to hang out with them. - Yeah. - They just felt weird. My daughter fell off, I think twice. One of my youngest daughter fell off once at least. And I was like, do we know that this elephant wants us riding? You know what I mean? It's kind of a weird thing. - It's a weird thing, right? And then afterwards you get in the water and you wash them and everything and I just kind of hung out with them. - I'd be cool. - They're very sweet. - I don't think I'd want to ride one. I would just, I like being around them. - And if you're feeding them. - I'm just feeding them on my Instagram of it. - Yeah, they're definitely us. 'Cause she was eating a log. I was like, why are you eating a log? - Yeah. - It's just weird. They're so enormous, but they're really peaceful and chill. - And incredibly smart. And they have incredible packed dynamics right. - Yeah. - They live in a herd. They've even had all these different examples where they also adopt other animals. I don't know if you've seen any of these videos. - Oh yeah, so here it is. So this is a few years ago in Thailand. And this is an Asian elephant. Just chilling with this elephant. - Yeah, 2018. - Okay. There it is. It was really cool. - Yeah, it's awesome. - It's just cool to be around them. They're just a fascinating animal. Just the biodiversity of Earth, the fact that that thing exists. - Yeah, enormous. - This enormous thing with this like robotic pretensile. - Yeah, it's crazy. - As long as you're cool to them, they're cool to you. - Yeah, they sense it, right? - Yeah. - And I mean, we see that nature with a lot of animals, right? If you sense it and they don't feel like they're, you know, being backed into a corner or a fearful then they're not gonna be around that. So some of our animals I've been around and they're starting to get quite large, which I'm sure we'll talk about at some point. - Yes. - That, yeah, at some point though, you're still kind of like, they are wild animals. So you have to maintain some level of healthy distance. - Yeah. So let's just get right to it. - Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. - You wanna finish the process? - Yeah, yeah, please. So, okay, so we have the ancient genome. So you have to collect an assemble. - Right. - And that's, a lot of people just think of us in the lab. Like just a bunch of people, in the lab, but that's like some Indiana Jones shit. Like we're literally going into the permafrost and like collecting dead samples from the permafrost, which you've had, you know, John Reeson here, it's disgusting. - Yeah. - It smells like death. It literally, I mean, it makes it his death. It's just over time, piled up death. - Have you visited John? - Yeah, I've visited John. - Do you went to the Boneyard? - Yeah, I went to the Boneyard. - What's the like there? - It's crazy. It's exactly what you'd expect. I didn't know John. So I'm on the board of trustees of the Explorers Club. So we'd take these expeditions. We didn't expedition to Alaska to do mammoth retrieval. And then we're also doing some cultural studies with some of the indigenous people groups around mammoth. Do you want mammoth back? 'Cause this is a good idea, right? 'Cause we try to be pretty inclusive. And they're like, oh, we got to meet the biggest landowner in Alaska, John. And I was like, okay, great. I'm excited. So go meet him. We pull up, he's in a different car. And he's like, and I think he wanted us to follow him. He's like, get in. I was like, okay. And he's big too. - He's enormous. - He's not that big of a dude, right? Especially after Gary Breck has been work on him but smaller dude, right? And so I literally get in, I get in the car. There's a bunch of stickers. And there's one that has butterflies on it that says, give zero fucks. And I was like, and then there's, and he's like, just move the gun over. So I move the gun over and he goes, listen. And this is the first words out of his mouth to me. If I stop short, you hand me that gun. And I was like, I didn't even ask a follow up question 'cause I was like, what do you do when you get in the car when John he says, you hand me that gun. If I stop quick and I say, hand me that gun, you hand me that gun. I was like, that's awesome. And he showed me around the book kind of gun, was it? - It was just some type of rifle. - So it was just Grizzlies. - I assume it was for Grizzlies, yeah. Or bears or something large. - Yeah. - But then he showed me around the vineyard and showed me his collection. And he was completely, I mean, he didn't know us from anybody. He just opened up everything to us, right? And he's like, let me show you all this. Showed us his skull. He actually has a warehouse. I don't know if he ever disclosed where it is. But he is a warehouse where he is some of the greatest specimens ever. So it's cool. You should go, it's cool. - I do want to go. He's an amazing guy. - Yeah, and he's a cool guy. And then being in the MAMF researcher business, we're like, oh, we'd love to, we'd love to, you know, take you somewhere, Samus, come here and take him. And he's like, no. And he was very honest. And he told us, and that's like before your podcast with him, we kind of learned that story, right? And so that's what sucks is how like some people can ruin it for everybody. No, cause he's outside of Fairbanks, it's not the easiest, he's placed to build a bio-containment level three lab. But he is, oh, he's like, you build a lab here? You can use it every one. But he's like, the bones stay here. So he is very consistent with his messaging. - Well, you know, the whole deal with the museum and natural history, right? - Mm-hmm. - Yeah. - And I totally believe it. - Well, it's a fact now. They found these bones in the East River, exactly where they told them to drop it off. They have stepbison fragments. - Yeah, I've seen it. - Wolley mammoth fragments. So they know that they're there. - Yeah, and well, I mean, you've built a relationship with John. He's just a normal, no bullshit kind of guy. - Yeah. - He's like, you stole the stuff, give it back. - Yeah. - Or he's also like, hey, if you want to come work on it, come on. Like, he's very collaborative. - It's also, it's like, what do you guys have? Like, why are you keeping that shit in a basement? Like, what is that? - I mean, when we do work, you know, outside of the expeditions of collecting ancient DNA, when we do work, we also work with museums, right? And so we go to like the catacombs of the museums. And it's exactly what you think of as like the Vatican archives, right? You go down to like, sub basement four of this Smithsonian, and it's just rows and rows and rows of taxidermy ambles that you've never seen. It's got like, like, little drawers and boxes, and they're like, oh, this is giant sloth poop. And I was like, I didn't know there was giant sloth poop, either, yes. And we think there's DNA in it. I was like, well, this is like, you know, the card catalog of like, all speed of all like dead species. - Yeah. - But it's not on display for the public. It's just in a basement. And is it extensively archived? They know where everything is? Or is there some stuff down there that I don't know what it is? - I wouldn't say that they are the, at least any museum, they have, I think they have a lot more than they know. I don't see it in like massive computer systems, 'cause we ask for inventory less. And you know, like, what's the shopping list? - It's been over a hundred years they've been doing this. - Yeah. - So people have come and gone. - Oh, they'll pull out, yeah, they'll pull out drawers that have like Darwin's name on and stuff like that. - What? - I mean, that's how we did the thylacene. We actually found in a cup about this size, we actually found what's called, we called the miracle pup, where they shot the mother. They took the three joys, the babies, killed the three pups and they put one of them in from aldehyde and we got a 98% complete genome from the first sample of that pup. - Wow. - But they didn't even know they had it. They also, on the thylacene, which I'm sure we'll talk about more later, they also found a head and a bucket. They didn't even, it was the mom's head. So we actually knew, we could actually look at the genetic relation between the two and they actually found, they didn't know they had the head in the bucket. They just had a head in a bucket, they opened it up as marked thylacene, they opened it up and there was a full thylacene skull in there. There's pictures of it online and everything and we used that to get to a 99.9% complete genome because we also had the ancestry of the two of the pup and mother. - Wow. - Yeah. So there's a, probably treasure troves in some of these museums that aren't being fully utilized. So if you have 98%, you have 99%, what's the process of going from that? So here's the head in the bucket. - So Andrew Pask who leads our, in partnership with the University of Melbourne, leads our thylacene work. And yeah, that's the head in bucket. I mean, there's soft tissue, there's teeth, there's petrace bones, which we'll talk about. - Do you buy into any of these sightings? - No. - I did. So Andrew Pask for years, he's been working on it for 15 years, he's amazing, he's awesome. He's been working on it like a shoestring budget and that's part of the problem with the extinction is no, he's but real capital into it until now. And he's been working on it for 15 years and he's had people send him poop, clippings from hair and all this stuff over the years, they've just sent it to him and then he loves the thylacene so much, he just sequences it and he's like, "No, it's a dog, you sent me more dog shit, thanks." I mean, it's de-moralizing. But when I got into thylacene, we met Andrew, we did a partnership with him, we actually made the largest investment in marsupial research more than else right in government. We made the largest investment in research for marsupial development of anyone. So we do this and then you get into the myth of it, right? So you start reading it, right? I start reading all the books on the thylacene, I wanna be obsessive about projects and so I'm pretty obsessive about extinction right now. And so got super deep in it and then I started calling Pask 'cause like, "Hey, I've been watching these YouTube videos and I kinda think they're still there." And Pask's like, "No, no, stop it, don't go down that rabbit hole." So I don't believe that-- - Why did he say that? - Well, because he's been testing for the last 15 years all of her Tasmania, right? So not just Southern Australia, but all of her Tasmania. - So samples, poo, poo, poo, poo, just everything. - Right. - Using camera traps and nobody's, I think they officially say that the thylacene went extinct in 1936, but probably into the late '40s and early '50s they still existed. But I mean, I think it's very unlikely that one still exists. It'd make our lives a lot easier for you to do this. - Four of us really believes in it. He does, he thinks they're in Papa New Guinea. - Hmm. - Because of sightings. - Yeah, he thinks in the Western part of Papa New Guinea in the mountains. - And also incredibly remote. - Yeah, very difficult. - And the separation of that topography separates the Papa New Guinea singing dogs, which could be competitive for them for a predator prey from where the thylacene sightings were. - What's a singing dog? - It's just another large canad that has a unique owl. - Oh wow. - So it still exists. Oh, I'm sure Jamie can find a video. - I wanna hear that, I never heard of this. - Yeah. - Singing dog. - Wow. - Papa New Guinea singing dogs. - By the way, folks, we're teasing ya, because this is not just theoretical. - Yeah, so this is what's gonna get crazy. - Yeah, this is gonna get weird. - This podcast is gonna blow your fucking mind. Go ahead, Jamie. (soft music) - Opera singers. - These queer animals have a neck for holding a tune, even to an exact key. - Opera singers, loving. - Oh, they're so cute. - Yeah. - The people keep them as pets. - That looks like a dog dog. - Yeah, it looks like a dog dog. - That looks like a dog that would be a dog. - They're wild dogs in Papa New Guinea, but I'm sure people have domesticated them. - Wow, pretty fucking cool dogs. - Yeah. - And hanging out with the fox. - So once you have enough of that DNA, right, from all these different samples, and you can assemble it, you then have to build comparative genomic models, to its closest living relatives, in the case of the man with the age of elephant. But I'm from software, so I just assume there's like the, you know, Google Cloud of DNA, like we've backed out, like we've all done 23 and me before, when bankrupt, right? So we should assume that I assume that the government or someone backed up and had kind of like the 23 and me of all species. That doesn't exist. - Wow. - Which is insane. - So there's like, there's no back, there's no like Noah's Ark biovolve for life, like kind of like the seed vaults, that doesn't exist. And so we were actually petitioning US government to help put a massive project together to help bio bank, it's starting, which is American megafauna and Keystone species. So that doesn't exist at all. And so, so then you, so then colossal, I had to go out and go build the reference genomes for all the species, like the closest living relatives for all the species that we're working on. - So this is the question. If you have, say, let's go to Wolliamam. So if you have Wolliamam, you have 99%. How do you bridge that gap? How do you, how do you create? - That's synthetic biology. So you never have to get to 100%, right? You need to get to synthetic biology. That's where you are using all of these different genetic tools, probably heard of CRISPR, all these other things, genetics, you know, which is, It breaks the DNA, it's not always the best tool. We can now actually make individual edits to when you think of the DNA double helix, in those rungs of the ladder, those individuals are called nucleotides. We can change the letters. Like that's how precise we can be. We can say at spot, four million eight, I need to change that letter. And so you change that letter. And then other times, you actually synthesize big blocks of DNA. So when you notice that in the mammoth and in the Asian alphabet, there's a difference. And if it's in these certain protein coding regions, in all these different regions of the genome that drive phenotypes or physical attributes, like the curve tusk, dome cranium, small ears, the subcutaneous fat layer, and then hair and coat color, you can actually then engineer that into the Asian alphabet. Because you're only really looking at that 0.4% difference. There's still a lot of numbers. But you're only looking at that. And so the better you can be at software, and the better you can be using AI and the computer models, the less edits you have to make, right? Because you're really just trying to target those core phenotypes. Right. Are there specific genes that regulate size? Because they're larger than-- It's a con-- So mammoths were about the same size. They're a little bit bigger than Asian elephants, a little bit smaller than African elephants. So there were 11-- everyone argues over the definition of speciation because it's a stupid concept that humans made, not nature made. And so there were 11 different types of mammoths out there that evolved in different ways in some of them more larger. But the woolly mammoth, the one that we were pursuing that has that woolly phenotype, it was about the size of Asian elephant. And-- But there are two question on size. It's actually a cluster of genes. We're finding more and more about how different genes also map across all species as well. And so there's specific characteristics that these animals have. One of them being the big furry coats that you guys-- what did you do with mice? We made woolly mice. See if we can find that. The only unintended consequences was they were cutissed. People lost their minds. Like, I was on the phone recently with it, moderately aggressive journalist. And it was going quite poorly as some calls go. Moderately aggressive, not being aggressive in one way. Like, why are you doing this? Some people, yeah, they-- Everyone likes cut it. Look how cute. So my daughter actually found this online and wants one. Yeah, so we get that a lot from the woolly mouse. So every week, every week-- I don't have my laptop, I actually-- Look how cute. But every week-- Oh my god, they're adorable. So these woolly mice aren't just adorable. We basically said, look, what are the core genes that drive the hair phenotype or physical attribute of a mammoth from an Asian elephant to a mammoth. And then because we want to do this in the most ethical way as possible, there's about 200 million years of genetic divergence between mice and elephants, we didn't just want to ram mammoth DNA in there and see what happens. So we look for the mouse equivalent. So we look for all of us have similar genes. And so we can try to look for those genes and then edit those genes with the data we got from the mammoth so that we're then not just putting random genes in there that could either hurt the animal or kill them, or that may not even be compatible with life. So we try to be really, really thoughtful about. And the woolly mice went insane. There's people that are making tissues of meme coin. And so we made 36 mice. They're all healthy. There's 36 mice that we made. And what was crazy about it is we're excited about it because it shows that the end-to-end process of taking data from an ancient DNA, comparing it to a living animal, making those changes, doing it with 100% efficiency. And that's really important and really hard. So we did it with 100% efficiency. Yeah, that's the difference. Well, so none of them, if it was in a trap, you'd be so sad. Yeah, exactly. The little guy on the left, if he was in a trap, "Oh, look at what we killed." Isn't that funny? Just a little bit of fur makes you love them. And that's the color that we think most mammoths were. Really, they were like a blonde. They were like a golden brown color, right? Because when we pull them out of the promo frost, they've been sitting in mud for quite some time. But if you see very fresh mammoths, like from Siberia and whatnot, like in Yucuts, and other places in northern Siberia that they actually have pretty well preserved mammoths, they actually have kind of a dirty, blonde meat, gold meat's brown fur. Wow. And so we did that. And now there's people that are making t-shirts that aren't us. And pillows that are like legalized, will they mine? So I'm like, they're not illegal. And then there's a meme account for the guy that did the, like the crisper babies, you know, that went to the trouble from making edited babies in China. Yeah. A meme account. Oh, wow. So that's mammoth fur. Yeah. A meme account, though, actually said on X that these are a bio-eapon. And that colossal's made a bio-e. So the weirdness of the woolly mouse went crazy viral. What we were trying to show is that we used our multi-plex editing tools, meaning that we edited all of those genes at the same time. Most people edit one gene, let that mouse live. From the second lineage, they'll do one more gene, let that mouse live. And then they'll stack those edits over multiple generations. We've developed a system so that we can deliver all of those edits at one time, all over the genome, get exactly what we want. And then we have this model, what's called monoclonal screening, where we're screening the cells at the end, sequencing all the cells, which is expensive and sounds like overkill. But then we know that none of them have unintended consequences or off-target effects in the genome. So that we know the mice that we then do cloning with, we know that they'll be healthy. So we try to spend a lot of time on that, because we're certified by American Humane Society. It's the oldest human organization in the world. And if you've seen the film that's like, no animals were harmed in the making of this film, that's those guys. So we've ended up-- so we really care about not just the de-extinction efforts that genome engineering efforts, but ensuring that the animals are healthy when they come out. And so the Woolly Mouse was a really interesting proof of concept. It shows that the edits that we are working on are working right, and we're getting exactly what we predicted. Is there any plans to sell those? No, everyone keeps asking us that. But museums, actually, are now calling us saying-- and zoos are calling us saying, can we display the Woolly mice? They're like, it'll drive so much value. It'll teach people about genetics and whatnot. So it's not our business model to sell. Our animals are to sell Woolly mice. But it's kind of gone crazy. Is it dangerous to leave these mice in the hands of someone even at a zoo who decides I want more of these? Yeah, if we ever put them-- I think more likely we'd put them in a museum for that needs to be free, like this Smithsonian or some of that from an education perspective versus something that's more attraction-based. I think we do it more in the case of museums. Do you plan on keeping this batch alive? Yeah, they're going to live out their normal lives. And-- But you're not going to make new ones. We may make new ones. These won't-- they're all separated. They're all separated by sex. So we're not going to, like, a Jurassic Park moment where they change. But if Jamie finds a picture of their habitats, they actually live-- they live a couple years, but they don't live like traditional lab mice that live in a small little cage and all on top of each other. They actually live in pretty sweet digs that we made for them. Yeah, like we may-- [LAUGHS] --a little bit of fear, no expense. Cool little house. Yeah, and they're big. And we put fun stuff in them to play with like this. And what's been crazy is we only named two of them. And we named them Chip and Dale. Because we-- people were asking what the names were. And I was like, uh, Chip, it is the only thing that I could think of at the moment. And now, even on next, people are like, we need pictures of Chip. Where is Chip? We've only seen pictures of Dale. And there's like these incredible internet slews that are like, that's not Chip, that's Dale. We need a picture of Chip. They can't involve-- Yeah, so we've just-- Yeah, we don't-- We involve those people in the house. We've not leaned in. Yeah. You cannot-- We're excited. They're excited, but we just can't. Yeah, we're busy. So this is a new thing. Though the woolly mouse is a new thing. Is there any talk about doing other kind of new things? So it's more of a proof of technology. I think that the mouse model, because it's a 20-day gestation versus 22 months in elephants, it's a great way to test phenotypes. Because with a mammoth, you have three ways to test. If you got the edits right. One, you can do molecular tests. You can do DNA sequencing to see if it worked. Two-- I guess there's four-- two, you could grow a mammoth and see if it looks like it. But that's a lot of work in 22 months. A lot of gestational time, a lot of money. I think there's a lot of risk in that. The third, and this is a little weird, we created what's called induced pluripotent stem cells. So we created cells that you can then turn into any type of tissue. So we actually do have mammoth hair follicles growing in a lab. So we have hair growing in petri dishes in the lab, which is pretty cool. If you come see the lab, you'll get the whole woolly wonk at Torah, which is pretty cool. And then the fourth way is mice, right? Because if we can then engineer them into mice, we can see immediately within 20 days if the edits were working, if there were any unintended consequences that would be detrimental to the animal. Wow. So we'll probably make more iterations of the woolly mice. The thylacene's closest living relative is the fat-tailed-done art, which is a mouse-sized marsupial. And it actually gestates in 13 and 1/2 days versus 20 days. So there's no reason to do it in mice when you can do it immediately in the model species. Wow. Yeah. OK. So how did you make the decision to do what you ultimately did, what you showed me before the show? So we're working on the mammoth, the Tasmanian tiger and the dodo for different reasons. We work with a lot of different private landowners governments and indigenous people groups. and a project that we announced through our call. The Lawsville Foundation about two and a half years ago is doing a population genomics map. We talked about bio-baking a little bit. So we want to understand from the bison that are still here in America, what's the genetic diversity, what's been lost, what's the number of inbreeding. So we go through this whole process to try to understand and then we were giving a report back to MHA Nation, Chairman Foxx, one of the largest indigenous people groups in the United States, one of the largest tribes based in North Dakota. So we're giving them a report out on this. We went to their nation, wanted to share this and then we're curious. So we said, what are the projects would you work on if that we could do that's helpful outside of helping bison? And they said that we needed help with wolf conservation. They brought that. They said that we needed help with more bison conservation. They said if we do stuff around eagles and fish. And so we kind of got that feedback. And when Chairman Foxx is walking me through their their cultural heritage museum, he actually stopped on this incredible picture of a white wolf. And he said, you know, that's the great wolf. And he talked about the ancestral knowledge that was passed down and that's been lost and how many people believed that it could have even been a dire wolf. And I was like, from Game of Thrones, it's cool. I love the show, that's interesting. So I did that, we talked about that. And then three months later I was in North Carolina and understanding that for a completely different meeting around financing. And in that meeting, the Red Wolf program came up. I don't know if you know anything about the Red Wolf, but it's kind of a disaster. You know, it's the only endemic wolf to America. It's only endemic to America. It's a Red Wolf. It's beautiful. And there's like 15 left in the wild. And with massive loss of genetic diversity, massive bottleneck. And I was like, wait, we're supposed to be this country of innovation. We can't save our own. When you think of like the American West, right? You think of wolves. You think of like, you know, eagle-sauron. You think of like trout bears catching trout. You think of bison. The thought that we could lose one of these amazing icons, like we're like, we have to do something. Because we have to figure something out. And so we put that kind of on the list. And then in a weird series of events, we've had all of these kids over the last three years and teachers, and parents sending us pictures of woolly mammoths, or dodoes or pilates. And it's like, we get like boxes of this every single week, which is pretty cool. So we're going to make a colossal kids corner at our new labs. And in that, we've had all this some Hollywood talent, like Tom Brady, others that have invested in the business. They're just excited about it. Most of them learned about it through their kids, kind of like with the woolly mammoths with you. And so everyone's excited about it. And then we talked again to MHA Nation. They brought up the Darrell Fugin. And so we thought maybe there was an opportunity to bring back an American species, because Darrell's were only found in the US, in North America, but predominantly in the United States, coastal United States. And we thought if we could do something that could bring back the Darrell Wolf, also help wolf conservation and bring people from like sci-fi, fantasy, and kids more into science, and into the conversation around conservation, we thought it was a cool idea, but we had no idea if we could pull it off. - Is there dead dire wolves that were trapped in permafrost, or is-- - No. - Most of the Darrell Wolf skulls out there, there's thousands of them in La Brea, Tarfred. So if you go there, they have this beautiful wall, but because of heat and acidification, there isn't anything that's protected. Like there's nothing you can get from that. But about six years ago, a group, including Best Shapiro Archive Science Officer, sequenced a tooth that was found in a cave, just a single tooth, right? And in that tooth, they actually found a, they actually got 0.15 X, or coverage of the genome, so they got about 15% of the genome. But that's not really enough. You need to get up to about 10 X, meaning that you can read the entire genome about 10 different times, so that even if there are gaps, you understand enough of the core coding regions that you could bring back that animal. - Is this done by AI? - It's done by AI and software, yeah. So we built part of our business model is building technologies to solve these really complicated problems. They're much harder to solve than, just solving them for existing species, open sourcing that for conservation for free, but then also taking those technologies that we can monetize for humans and spinning them out. So our first computational analysis company was called Form Bio, and we actually spun it out of the business. - So you have this tooth, you have 1.5? - Yeah, 1.5, so 15% of the genome. - Okay. - And so I went to Beth, who's only an advisor at the time, and said, could you resample the tooth? And she's like, it's like half an inch long. She's like, it's destructive sampling, like it's going to ruin us. Like, well, could we scour the other museums and see if it's even possible? So we lucked out in that tooth 13,000 years old. The skull itself is 72, 73,000 years old, not exactly sure, but it was found in a riverbed, and it wasn't found in a riverbed at the mouth of a cave. So it wasn't found like in the permafrost, it also wasn't found in like heat as a certification. So there's a bone in all of us called the petris bone, which is insanely dense, and it doesn't change a lot from after you're born. It's a great DNA storage, better than teeth, better than anything. It's on the inner ear kind of head area. And so we got permission from the museum to very carefully drill into the back, the underside of the skull, and remove the petris bone to see if we could get DNA. And we got really lucky between resampling the first and the skull, we ended up getting about 13 to 14 X coverage. So that's more than we needed to potentially bring back the dioroles. And then what'd you do? - Well, and then, then we got knock on the door, and it was the eye. No, so we took that DNA. - Can I ask you before we even started with this? - Yeah. - The aggressive reporters, are is it you're playing God? How do you have the right to do this? - So it's been a journey, okay? So the journey that we've had is, when we started the business, we didn't have any scientists. Like we just didn't, right? They're like, this is tech bros wanting to see cool animals, and oh, they've only got $16 million of funding, and they don't have any scientists, ha ha. So that was phase one. And then we're like, oh, well, as an entrepreneur, my job is to hire much smarter people than me. - You smoke scars? - I do not. Gary's got me on quite a kick. - Health kick? - Yeah, so I mean, I'm not saying they're bad for you. - Well, I'm not saying they're bad for you. I'm just saying that allegedly. - Yeah. - I don't care. - Okay, this is the last of the things that I partake in that are probably bad for you. - Yeah, but you gotta do what you gotta do. - I always got their advice. - I like it a little cigar. So my question, if I was gonna grill you, if I was a reporter, it'd be like, what right do you have to invade the natural process of nature and to inject your curiosity and your ability to create new life? - I think that we've become the apex predator on this planet, and we inject our curiosity and choices every day that we overpitch the ocean, we overhunt something. In the case of the thylacene, the Australian government put a bounty on its head and killed it off, right? And every time we cut down the rainforest, every time we drink hydrogenated water, we are playing God on some level, right? We are, we are, humans are very good at changing the natural flow of things. Now, the good news is, is that there's been a lot of work around ecology and understanding what the impacts to rewilding can be. And so it's been really, really helpful for us to understand one of the most successful rewilding programs of all times was reintroducing of 14 or 15 wolves back in the Alston. - Right. - And looking at how the ecology of the system completely changed, like it changed the shape of rivers. Because the elk population were just, they're getting fat, they were getting lazy, they weren't migrating, the sick and the old and the weak weren't getting killed off. They were spreading disease, they were eating all of the willows and everything along the banks, so therefore the beavers went away. Theavers are like the most super, you know, climate impact animals that probably exist, because they make wetlands, they make, they cause the rivers and ponds to get deeper, so it allows different types of fish and different types of animals. So you have this thing called tropic downgrading and you have this tropic cascading effect when you reintroduce these species. - That's documentary fascinating. - It's so fascinating. - How wolves change rivers? - Yeah, I know people that lived in Montana before the wolf reintroduction. And a lot of people don't like that the wolves are there and but most of them are elk hunters that were used to something that's just outrageously overpopulated, that's the reality of it. But they were telling me that there was, they had so many elk that were living, they had such a large population versus the actual resources that were available, that they had all these crazy hunts that were available over the counter, you can hunt cows in a snow. So in the middle of the winter where they can't move good, you just pick them off in the snow because they were just trying to call the population, they were trying to diminish them. - And that's not good for the elk population. - No, it's not good for the ecosystem, but it's not good for the elk population itself. - Right, I have a good friend who lives in Colorado, he has a ranch in Colorado and we were at his place approximately two weeks after they reintroduced wolves. - So they actually reintroduced wolves on his property. - Oh yeah. And he didn't know it was gonna happen before it happened and all the people around there are ranchers. So already these five wolves that they've reintroduced, he said killed over a dozen cows and calves. So the problem is they've killed elk as well. In fact, I took a photo of an elk leg that we found on the ground that the wolves had killed. I'm not a big fan of people getting to vote on whether or not you should do something. with wildlife. I'm a big fan on having real wildlife biologists, obsessed situations. And in the case of Colorado, Colorado, obviously, borders Wyoming and Wyoming has wolves. Wolves were making their way into Colorado already and they are protected. The problem with reintroducing them is you're essentially asking a wolf that doesn't know the territory to start killing things in that territory. Yeah, or to stop at a imaginary border. It doesn't exist. There's no border. They go hundreds and hundreds of miles. But the idea that you're doing this and you're doing this where there's ranches is crazy. And in Colorado, particularly stupid, because the first batch were literally animals that they had captured because they were killing wildlife. So they moved them from Oregon to Colorado where they. Get a wildlife. Yeah, but I'm saying wildlife, what I really meant to say was animals, agriculture. They're killing domesticated cows. They're killing these calves and they're having a real fucking problem with that. And it is something that needs to be continually monitored that shouldn't just be on some random vote of how you feel about it, right? We just can't let people vote on that. Too many people live in these high population areas. I couldn't read more, right? So like we as humanity, like if you look at the third leading cause of death, of elephants, it's human elephant conflict, right? Like we have to figure these things out. We also. We don't want the greatity because systems, we don't want to lose species, but you have to do this in a very thoughtful and measured way, right? Like with the Yellowstone, they're like, this is big enough ecological reserve. We're tagging the animals. We're going to walk and measure it. I don't think that it's safe or smart to put any, you know, not just predators, but also like large herbivores in these heavy population dense areas. We can just. We just. We have to understand that some of these areas, not our loss, but have already been changed for a different reason. Yes. And they've achieved homostasis, homostasis. They've achieved the balance, right? Which is the big issue with Colorado right now. And it's going to be the big issue whenever you reintroduce the animal that used to be there and is going over there. And I think in the case of Montana, I think you're right. And I think that there is an argument that maybe the wolves being there is better. Obviously not if you're a rancher. Well, the Colorado. So the Colorado stuff is completely going to destroy all of the stats. So pre-Colorado, right? So I'm talking about reintroduction into Montana, reintroduction into parts of Canada, reintroduction into Yellowstone, the Red Wolf, which is a very small population in North Carolina. There's been less than five confirmed fatalities in all of North America in the last hundred years. You mean humans. Right. And most of them in Alaska? Most of them in Alaska or in Canada. And then it's before Colorado. So I'm not saying with. I don't know if the data has. I don't think it has the latest from Colorado. But it represents.02% of deaths associated with wolves and cattle in livestock, right? In all livestock, not just cattle. And so the problem is when you go out there and you have a maintained balance that people can understand, and governments actually give subsidies to the ranchers when they get killed by. when they get killed by the by a wolf. So that I think that is a good program because you have to be fair to the people that are actually ranching. But the problem is when you're not as thoughtful with the rewilding program and you're not as measured as like what they did in Yellowstone and they start encroaching in these areas, then the stats are going to go crazy. And when the stats go crazy, then you're going to start looking to the animals that are the problem, but it's not the animals that are the problem. It was the decision that we gave that power to the masses that were really not informed to make that decision. Exactly. The problem is people just have these ideas, like wolves are beautiful, they're amazing. We all love wolves. It's an incredible animal. So happy to exist. Don't put it near where there's a ranch. Exactly. You can't vote on that if you live in Denver. That's crazy. Yeah. If it doesn't affect your livelihood, it doesn't affect the risk to your animals or your family. Yeah. You have to be mindful of that. There's also the getting a very skewed perspective because the governor is really interested in it and his husband is really interested in it. His husband apparently is the one who really wanted it to happen. You have a mandate, so you have to get wolves out by a certain time. And when you're doing it, the only wolves available are wolves that kill livestock and see like fuck it. Yeah, it's just not. It's just you have it in a lot of that. So the project that we'll probably eventually talk about is we brought in a lot of the teams, some many people that have been on your show, that know how to do the rewilding the right way over time. Okay. So this is what we'll just get to it. You made a fucking dire wolf. I didn't. You got our team. Our incredible team made three dire wolves so far. Let's see the photos. Jamie bust out some photos. Ladies and gentlemen, prepare yourself because this is truly fucking crazy. Yeah. That's the pop. Yeah. So this is, so that's actually Romulus as, so we have two boys, Romulus and Remus, founders from and then, and then we have Colisey who's the new girl. So this is Romulus and Remus. So funny, funny story about this. So Peter Jackson from Lord of the Rings. Jamie. Peter Jackson from Lord of the Rings was actually one of our investors. And he has this huge museum in Wellington that he's building for all these movie props. And he's like, where I was sitting in Peter's house with he and his partner, Fran. And I was like, you know, I showed him the video of them hailing. He started tearing up and goes, this is the first time I've heard a dire wolf, or anyone's heard a dire wolf in 10,000 years started. Well, he like, he like, physically emotionally got chills and started crying. And then he's like, well, you know, I do have the throne. I was like, what do you mean he goes, I bought the throne last week at auction at a private auction for like, saw the bees or someone, right? And so, so he did. And it just happened to be where the wolves were doing their vet check up. Like talk about Cosmic coincidence. Incredible, right? And so, you know, what you don't see in this photo is you don't see the fact that we have American Humane Society there with three veterinary people. We had six people from our animal care. When you say check up, you don't vaccinate these little guys, do you? They do get, they because of viruses from that they can get from the soil at at eight, at eight weeks, they do get basic virus. They do get basic vaccines. Oh, were you concerned about that? I mean, you have this animal that you're just, yeah, so these are staying on, you know, like these are not going back into the wild, right? Yeah, right now they're on a 2000 acre, secure, expansive ecological preserve with 24 or seven care. They were, we have an animal hospital that we built. Wow. People always like you guys raise so much money. And I was like, well, it, because we didn't just spend it on the labs, you just spend it on the animal care, the facilities. Yeah. Let's see the photo of the actual grown ones, because they're fucking nuts. Yeah. So, so this is, uh, Rhymes and Remus playing in the snow on the preserve when they are, um, uh, three months old. So there's three months, how big are they? Uh, three months, they were north of 45 pounds. Wow. So, um, look at that face. God, there's so beautiful. Oh, they just get, they just get, like as they've aged, they've just got more and more beautiful. So let's go to the adults, because the adults have crazy characters. Yeah. So we were saying that you didn't even know that we didn't know, right? And so we, we did, we, we ended up taking getting a, is this a full grown one? Uh, there's still five months old. So they're 80 pounds at five months. So wolves typically grow 12 to 14 months. So they're not full grown yet. Wow. And how big is it already? Uh, 80 pounds, um, about five and a half feet, um, and the main. Yeah. And so, so a couple of things about the wolves, Jamie, if you're about, yeah. Uh, so we didn't know this, right? We knew that they were a plycystine wolf. We knew that they existed, uh, and went extinct about 12,000 years ago, um, went a lot of megafauna went extinct, like the, during kind of that younger dry, period, that younger dry is kind of cooling period. Um, they went, they went extinct as well, right? Um, and we knew, all we know, because all we have is, we don't have frozen dire wolves or frozen samples, we literally just know from skeletal remains that they were 20 to 25% longer, uh, larger. They were stockier. Uh, they probably weren't as fast based on kind of their, their body weight as a normal wolf would be. Um, but we knew that they had thicker skulls, uh, larger cranium and whatnot. And we assumed that they're, they're, and we did find this out in the genome, which is pretty cool, that they were white because there's like this misconception for a while that they were red because some scientists wanted to make a paper and assume that they are red so they get their paper. Doesn't that make sense for natural selection? Yeah. They're an art to hunting animal. Yeah. And they have this beautiful, we didn't know if they have this beautiful, like, main light quality to them. And when they're babies, you, you saw a couple of pictures, their fur almost feels like polar bears. It's crazy. Wow. It's so, it's like polar bears and that's hollow or is it? Uh, no, it's not. It's, it's like typical wolves, but it's incredibly thick. It grows in kind of these, these clumps. But then as they, uh, as they've grown in, they've started to get this kind of like main to them, which is the females as well. Uh, well, the female, she's only six weeks old, so it's to, oh, okay. So if you keep going through a couple of other photos, yeah, I mean, they are just, they're just beautiful. And they, I mean, it's funny. Someone actually said they, uh, on our two, it was like, they almost look like Shetland pony wolves at some point, right? Right. There's something. They're so stocky. They're stocky. They're thicker. Um, they are, I mean, they're, they're absolutely beautiful. Um, that, so this is Kaleesi. So who looks like a baby. And, uh, we nailed it. We, uh, we, we named her, can we hear it? Let me hear it. We named Kaleesi for George R Martin, obviously. Obviously. Who's an investor in colossal? Oh, wow. - Aww. (crickets chirping) - Nature's cute little murders. (laughing) - Well, everything in nature murder something, right? - Yeah. - Like we were, well, cows murder grass. - Yeah. And people are now saying you can hear grass and other plants like scream now. - Yeah. - Yeah, they scream. (laughing) - So I guess we all are bad. - Life eats life. This is, I mean, that's the reason why plants have chemicals to dissuade us from eating them. What are they eating there? - So they love to chew on horns in this state. So we have a different phases of, we've built a 145-page animal guide. These are actually different horns from different alken other species that we're putting out there. - And they chew on, like a dog does. - Like a dog does. - Like a dog does, right? - So are you letting these animals kill things or are you feeding them? - So we're feeding them still. So they had a combination of bison meat, horse meat, and sun. - Deep-finon letting them kill things. - So we're just about to introduce carcasses to them. So giving them part of a carcass, letting them feed, building in that dynamic between the two brothers for now. And then, and they are starting to exhibit some hunting behavior. - Are you gonna let them hunt? - I mean, they are on a seemingly wild 2,000 acre preserve with just them. So they do have the ability to hunt on that preserve. But they're not doing it yet. They're starting to exhibit the original, the kind of the first inklings that it will trend toward that. But we want them to live. We want them and we're gonna probably make two or three more. We want a solid little social pack that we can monitor, that can live a seemingly wild life, that we can understand more about them. - Wow. - That's cool. But the other thing that's equally cool to it, going back to the Red Bull story, can you, what's just crazy to me that you have reignited these 10,000 year old hunting genes? - Yeah. - That they're starting to exhibit size. - Including size. - Including size. So we understand more about like, we looked at what genes made really a darrel, what was separated. And the beautiful thing for us is that we had a 13,000 year old tooth and a 73,000 year old skull. So we could actually understand the genetic distance, with that much genetic distance between them, we could actually understand what truly was fixed and conserved in the darrel of genome. And what wasn't just population genome, right? If you and I are 50,000 years apart, there's a lot of different mutations in that time period. But if we can then really say, okay, what made Ben and what made Jo Jo? Oh, here's the overlaps, it allowed us to really understand that. - Wow. - It's just fascinating that the behavior characteristics are kind of baked into those genes. And they just were dormant for 10,000 years. And now these things are waking up. - And so I was like, so I was in, you know, 'cause I bottle fed, Romulus. And Rambos was partly raised with me. I could go out to the preserve. I'd check on him quite frequently. It's in the Northern United States where we don't say where it is. But mainly 'cause it were for notches the animal's health, but for human health. We ever since we launched the Woolly Mouse, we've had very excited people just show up. At our labs not open to the public. And we've had lots of people just show up wanting to see the mice. And so showing people too much of the preserve, we're always very, very nervous about. We scrub all the videos and want to have to ensure that no one can pick it out. Because we assume people will be moderately excited. - Oh yeah. Oh, the internet sleuths will try to find you. - Yeah, so we've done, I'm not trying to challenge them, but we've done everything we can to protect it. - Yeah, I understand. I mean, you have to. Some dude from Saudi Arabia wants a wolf. - Yeah, exactly. - Somebody wants a diamond wolf. - We already get a lot of weird calls. But the other thing though, - Someone with deep pockets. - Oh, we get, we make me a diamond with my friend. - I have everything in my collection. - We get a lot of weird calls. - Yeah. - From people that are like-- - What's people that have private zoos? - Oh yeah. - They're like enormous. - Like in India. - Yeah. - Yeah. - They have that family has like the largest private zoo and preserve. - Just so wild. - It's so crazy. - Yeah. - Well, you know, Texas is history with animals, right? - Yeah. - There's more tigers and captivity in private collections in Texas. - In Texas. - In the wild. - Then in the wild of the world. - Yeah. - Yeah, it's crazy. But I was in the, I always, so we, of the 2000 acres, we have a subsection of it. That's about six and a half acres. We have an animal hospital, a storm rescue shelter. We have a couple of natural dins that we've built for them, as well as an animal husbandry area. So that, that way, when we want to take photos of them or videos of them or do blood tests, they're in a seemingly more contained area. And it's funny, two weeks ago, I was up there and I was actually sitting on those logs and one of those pictures. In Riemis came, Rommelos, who I sent the most amount of time with. Riemis came up, came pretty close. And I was able to touch him again. But I thought at that moment, and he kind of skidded his way. I was like, that's the last time I'm touching Riemis. Like, what am I doing? And I mean, I, I don't even know how to touch the animal, too. - Yeah, what I have animal care teams there and everything, and they have been, some, there's some level of habituation between the care team. They really know and love the care team, but they're still wild animals, right? And so. - And they probably hunted humans. - Yeah, I don't, I don't, we don't know, right? But the rise of kind of going back to their extinction, the rise of the change in kind of this younger driest period. And the change, the massive, I don't know, it's some of the stuff that there's like, several different prevailing theories, one of which is human predation, right? That like the rise of humans led to the extinction of the megafauna. That's kind of, you know, I think the answer is probably a combination. Could have there been an, you know, astrological event? They're starting to be more and more data around that. - I'm sure you've seen Randall Carlson talk about this. - Randall Carlson talk about it, Graham, Hancock talk about it. And they just got the whole, beat out of them. - Yeah, but not anymore. - Yeah, now I'm sorry to ask. - Improvised, improvised theories, what we're talking about. - Yeah, yeah, and it happened. - Yeah, and it definitely also happened in kind of a regional sense, right? Cause you see different, which also tracks to the theory, right? So not only do you have these different layers that you can prove from a sedimentation perspective, but, you know, there was also a massive glacial lake, and some of the glaciers of their that rapidly liquefied. They then dumped in the ocean that also changed ocean pattern. So you went from a period, you know, in that kind of transition from Pleistocene to Holocene, there was this period of insanely accelerated cooling. - Do you know how Randall came up with that idea before it was brought to, like his idea is that it was an instantaneous melting of these caps, put some sort of immense cosmic event, and millions and millions of trillions of gallons of water at an insane rate ran through the land and just carved deep gouges into the earth. He was on acid. He was on acid and this idea came to him. - Some were getting out over a ridge. He was looking at this enormous gorge, and he realized the gorge was formed by water rushing at an insane rate of speed. And then he started noticing that there's, these huge boulders that are just out in the middle of nowhere that were just moved by this immense amount of water. And then the way the ground, the features of the ground looks like the features that you see on sandy beaches when the tide rolls in and out. And it's like this is great and it all tracks. It tracks all over the world. - It's like, it reminds me of those stories where they show people like the side of this finks. And they're like, oh man, that's a lot of water erosion. And then they flip the photo and then you see the head of the things like, that's not water erosion. - It's Dr. Robert Chocht from Boston University. I've interviewed him. He was the first guy to propose this. He's like, this is thousands of years of rainfall. And we know that the last time there was rainfall like that in the Nile Valley was 9,000 years ago. So the whole thing is really screwy in terms of what is the timeline that this stuff was actually built? And are we just assuming because we've decided that it's 2,500 BC that that's it forever? And no one wants to let that go. - Well, I'm not a scientist, but that's and I don't come from academia. I'm just an entrepreneur that knows how to build teams as smarter people than me and I find cool shit interesting and I try to work on it, right? And what's crazy to me is the academic system, you know, once again, non-academic, I'm sure I'll get crucified for this, but I don't read the comments. - I don't read the comments. - Trust me, I don't read the comments. It isn't good for you. - I sleep quite well. - Nice. - But you know, the academics, we have 95 of the top scientific advisors in the world, Nobel laureates and whatnot. We've got, we fund 17 academic universities, right? All over the world. We fund 40 post-docs, right? All over the world, right? And they're doing this. So we're very integrated with different ideas from academia and these scholars. And our top people that were at Colossal came from academia. So I think we tried to be very academic, friendly, but they live in this world, this super kind of like fortune and glory world, where it's like, it's a popularity contest. If someone has a paper, 'cause their entire motivation is published or par. So one of the other things that people bitch about is they're like, you guys don't write scientific papers for every single thing you do. It's like, we're not an academic university. We're not a lot, I don't have to write a paper on anything ever. We do a couple here and there 'cause we wanna share our knowledge with the community, right? But we get this feedback of like, if we wrote a scientific paper for every single thing that we did that went through peer review, like we would have 3,000 scientific papers and no mammoths ever, right? 'Cause we just be sitting around writing fucking papers all day long. - It's interesting 'cause they wanna impose their idea of what you're supposed to and not supposed to do. - Well, they wanna impose their idea that they've already established in any change to that establishment. So in addition, the public, 95 scientific guys, and these are some of the top women in the world, right? That fall and all sides of the political spectrum, all sides of every single, back from out there, we have another probably 40 advisors. They're like, we love you. You can't say anything because if I submit it, we know these other people don't like me. If I submit a paper, they're getting, we totally agree with you and we'll help you. If we submit a paper, they judge my paper, it gets rejected, then I don't get my grant, so then I can't continue my research. I have to fire my postdocs. So it's a complete scam of a system, right? And so we went through this phase where it's like, we didn't have enough scientists, we didn't have labs, we didn't have money, we weren't doing anything for conservation. So we went through this whole philosophical perspective of all these things that people threw out of us from the scientific community. And some of our biggest people that hate us are people that we denied, they're funny. Of course. Well, the problem is not the scientific community, the problem is weak men. It's what you see in these squabbles, these ultra personal squabbles, where like, horrible vitriolic statements made about people, like they're just not happy people. Exactly. It's the same problem with all of life. It's these bitchy little people, these bitchy little monsters. And they have taken over something that's incredibly important and their work, their work, these bitchy little people, their work is incredibly important. Yes. But at the core of their being, they're a bitchy little person. And that's why, and that is why we don't have flying cars, we don't have mammoths. And until Elon, we were not going to live on Mars, right? And so, like, we didn't have, like, I think-- It takes time. Yeah. But it doesn't come. But also, academia is really focused on point solutions, not full systems, right? So if you want to go to Mars or you want to bring back a mammoth, you have to design the entire system, and you have to innovate across everything. Whereas in academia, you're only incentivized to get that piece of paper and get that approved. Well, it's also, you're dealing with grants and enormous amounts of money that gets donated and given to these institutions along with a whole ideology. It's not just as simple as, let's follow data. It's all got to be attached to this very left-leaning, almost preposterous in some aspects, ideology. And everyone has to say things. As a fucking scientist, that you know is not true. You should just follow the scientific method. I'm not excited. But we should just-- and guess what? When new data shows up that changes your old data, you shouldn't get mad about that. You should celebrate it. Exactly. Well, also, you have to look at all data. I don't want to get into this. But if you have academics who are legitimate scientists and have published papers who are telling you that a man can be a woman, which is fine in terms of who you are. But now when you're having them compete with women in sports, you've entered into a nonsense land. And you're the person we're counting on to be the most intelligent person on the subject. You're trapped by an ideology that you're now ignoring biology in favor of sociology. I just wish we could get philosophy. We separate philosophical perspectives from science. One of the things that we fight about all the time, is it's like, once we got the scientists, once we got the money, and once we proved that we are the most advanced synthetic biology company in the world, once InQTel, which is the funding arm of the CIA and other governments started investing in colossal because of our technologies. And once we started proof points, the last arguments that we have against some of those scientists are philosophical. Sorry, it's not a man myth. It's not a diorope. And it's like, this concept of speciation is a human construct that we are trying to impose on nature that flows more like a river than a rock. So are they saying that it's not because it didn't come straight from nature? It's something that you've recreated by piecing this together with that. What are the genes that you had to use to create a diorope? We didn't totally explain this. So you have CRISPR, you have these gene editing tools, you have a good sample of DNA. How do you turn that into a wolf? So you map them next to it. And there was a study that came out and once again, this goes back to the status quo of scientists, a vacuum scientist. There was a paper that came out a few years ago because they didn't have much data. They said that diorolves were close related. It weren't close related to wolves. They were close related to jackals. And that's because at the time, they only had 0.15% of the genome, right? They just didn't have all the data. It's not negative. Now we know that they actually were close related to wolves because we have more data-- Which wolves? Gray wolves. Or the precursor to gray wolves, right? So they were closer to the wolf. And such reliant in kind of the broader candidate group and family group. And so what we found is once you do that, we start looking at all these genes and we start to understand what the difference is. And we start to see that in certain parts of the genome that are responsible for size, for muscle, for cranial facial, that there's differences, right? So we can start to map and say, OK, where are the differences between gray wolves and where are the differences between gray wolves and diorolves? And then with those, we have a lot of different tools that we can then go use to make those changes from the diorolves in a gray wolf cell line. And so-- and then once you do that process, we didn't talk about this earlier. You do the same process called somatic cell nuclear transfer, which is effectively cloning. Where you take the nucleus of one cell, you put it that into another egg cell, and then you take that embryo and you insert it into a serrat. And is this a 100% diorolve or is this a new thing? So this goes into the philosophical thing. So if you look at speciation, there's basically the scientist don't agree on how you classify a species. So you've got certain people that will say, well, if a species is dictated by something that can't breed, that's literally a definition. If this animal can't breed with this animal, then that's its own species. Then you have other people, you have the paleontologist, and some of them love us. Can a flock of arrows are really the number one paleontologists in the world that loves us. But then you have other paleontologists who just hate us. And they do it based solely on tooth morphology, because they argue that the only thing that is going to be persistent over time. And I asked a paleontologist recently that hates us. I said, if I made a mammoth with like, that was giant, with like, paint curly fur, and it had the right tooth morphology, you're saying that based on your scientific papers that you would say that's a mammoth. And she's like, yes, but that doesn't matter. And I'm like, well, we're doing it. So we think you got to say-- Why does she hate you guys? Because why does anyone-- anytime you do anything in this world now, that's like moderately bold or polarizing people give you pushback. But this is heavily bold. I wouldn't say this is moderately bold. You made three fucking diaholes. That's not moderately bold. It's really kind of one of the craziest things that a human being's ever done. It's definitely in the realm. This is right up there with inventing the internet. Yeah, so when you see-- Well, and we have more stuff to come that I think I know. I know. [LAUGHTER] So there's people out there that you worry that someone is going to get-- Because this falls into religious realms. Well, there's philosophical interreligious. And so back on speciation, polar bears and brown bears are two different species. But they may produce five offspring all the time. And a bear expert will tell you that a polar bear is just a aquatic adapted, cold adapted bear. And so I always ask people that-- They're offspring or they can have children. Yes, yes. But it's not like a donkey. Yeah, exactly. So there's different ways to characterize this. Making a mutant. Yeah. But there's different ways to say something or something. And so we are not the same. I don't know what percent-- you probably from 23 and me or something have some percentage in the intertall. You'll say that you're an admixture or a hybrid. You just say you're human. You don't really-- But that's a good point, though, because a neanderthal, if you want to talk about this, different species. Just because they could breed with us, god, they're so different. But like I said, there's six different ways. There's actually a species definition that's based solely on geographic. And there's a funny paper out there around one species of toad that they built a road through. And the same toads live on both on two sides of the street and they're different species. And they're the same fucking toad, just because there's a road. It just because-- because we as humans change-- it's called geographic isolation of speciation. So it's just crazy. And so the only arguments that we now have is-- put it in a mammoth. And it's like, well, then don't call it a mammoth. I asked people-- did you see Jurassic Park? And they're like, yeah? I was like, what was Jurassic Park? What was Jurassic Park to your-- what was Jurassic Park about to you? To me? Yeah, if you're like, if you're going to take your kids to Jurassic Park, what is the movie about? Dinosaurs. Is it? Because they took ancient DNA and they mixed it with a bunch of other stuff. Are they dinosaurs? Or are they genetically modified animals, GMOs, genetically modified organisms that have inserted genes from lots of different things? Or are they dinosaurs? If they serve the ecological function, this is what's called functional deextinction. If they serve the ecological function, and they have the lost biodiversity in phenotypes that made that animal unique, like the polar and a bear and a bear, they're just that animal. So this starts the whole religious and philosophical debates where it's funny because the scientists who should not fall into these philosophical debates when they don't like what you're doing, that's what they go to. So what was the argument? How did they present it? Oh, it's just like-- By their own definition, they're like, well, it doesn't have enough DNA. So I was like-- so I said, but the second dior wolf that we have-- the second genome that we have from the tooth has less of the same DNA than the skull. Does that mean that it wasn't a dior wolf? And it just turns into it. You're missing the point conversation. I was asking-- I was like to know the point though. What is our argument? What is she-- what is our overall argument? The general point of the people is that they want to pick one speciation definition, and adhere us to that. And if you do that, no animal, including our animals will fall into one species, right? It's just people that are using the framework that they set that doesn't, isn't consistent kind of against the, they're based on the argument that they wanna make. - Interesting. So the species is just something. - It's a human construct. - It's not. - And it's just a thing if it can breed with another thing. - Well, I mean, that's, that is one definition. There is another definition saying that it's only a species if it can't breed with another thing. So if I genetically modify them to make it where they can't breed with wolves, does that mean they're now their own species? - It just gets into this dumb philosophical perspective because we made up this construct. - Right, but as a person who studies biology, which this person is, right? I could kind of understand her perspective where she's like, what are you doing? Like what are you doing? How is this group of people with a bunch of money and a bunch of egg heads? How are these geniuses allowed to get together, splice some genes up and serve up a dire wolf? I could see it from her perspective. - Yeah, 100%. - Right, but I think that if we don't do big bold things, it's important. You know, one of the things we should definitely show is the red-- - Is this just like the gynegyrassic park? - But we should just-- - Basically the same conversation. - Yeah, but John Henry. - But John Hammond, I don't think that they were really focused on conservation unless there was a supply that didn't make it the final cut. - No, actually, I'm making attraction. - Yeah, so if we could show the red wolf, I think that'd be amazing because all the technologies that we made on the path to bring back the dire wolf, we won make available to conservation. - Well, let's explain the red wolf to people because you were saying before I didn't even know how few of them there are. - Yeah, so if you go to the one more, yeah. So this is a red wolf, that's hope. That's the world's first cloned red wolf. So I've actually made more red wolves than I've made dire wolves. So I've made four red wolves, one female. - Are you just releasing these fuckers? - No, no, they're in an ecological preserve as well. And so, but you're gonna die when you hear what I went through on this. So I found out that, you know, we try to pair every de-extinction project with a species preservation project outside of making all of our technology for free, right? Everything that we make that has an application to conservation, anyone in the world can use to help save animals. They don't pay us a dime. It's all open source, it's all free. We have 48 conservation partners, the team that's running the Northern White Rhino project, where they're exclusive genetic rescue partner. It doesn't, we're working with elephants in Botswana, we're working elephants in Kenya. So anybody can use our technologies for free, right? We're working on a terrible fungus in Australia. And so, if that's not enough, I found out that, you know, that there's only 15 of those of red wolves back in the wild in North Carolina. So I met with the upcoming governor. - Other states as well or just, we'll get to that. So they're only recognized by a US fish and wildlife there. But this incredible woman from Princeton, you know, top of her field, she's one of the wolf top wolf genesis in the world of Bridget von Holt, identified a population of wolves in Louisiana that have a red wolf like characteristics. So she started darting them, taking samples. And what she found is they actually have more quote unquote red wolf in them than the red wolves that are being identified in North Carolina. - And is it part of the problem they're in breeding with coyotes? - Yeah, but they've all been in it. Like these guys, like the ones in North Carolina have all in bred with coyotes. All the red wolves have some coyote in them. 'Cause they look like coyotes. - Well, because every, well, the ones in North Carolina even look more like coyotes. And yeah, because the reality is every single species is what's called an ad mixture. They're all, we are, everything is in breeding with everything on some level, right? And so everything in life is an ad mixture. Nothing, it goes back to the Neanderthal. - So this binary idea that we have is silly? - It's no, it's a human cause construct, right? And they, it's insane. So I went to some folks from the last administration, right? And I took some data with me and I said, "Hey, we really want to help this red wolf program. "We don't need any money. "We open source all of our technologies." And we've used a technology that's non-invasive for cloning where we actually take a vial blood. We isolate what's called indithelial progenitor cells, basically the interlining of your blood vessel, right? 'Cause there's no nucleus in blood cells. So we catch those and when we catch those, we then isolate them, we grow them, and we clone from them, right? Which is amazing because if you think about typical cloning from an animal welfare perspective, a lot of times you have to anesthetize the animal, you have to take ear punches, skin biopsies. It's actually pretty invasive, terrible process to do cloning. We can simply do it. Every single zoo takes blood from their animals to check certain levels and whatnot. We give blood all the time. And so it's a very non-invasive, it's about as non-invasive as you can get, right? And so we found a way, which we're open sourcing on Tuesday, is open sourcing this model of how you go cloned from blood, which is a game changer for biobanking. 'Cause now you don't have to go herd an animal, take pieces of the animal and anesthetize the animal. We can just take blood and put them in freezers and be able to bring them back or clone them if there's a lack of genetic diversity using the same. So I went out to Washington with my team. I showed them hope as a baby in the videos of, and you may have videos of hope, Jamie, I don't know if it's in the folder. I showed them videos of hope and I said, hey, there's only a handful of, we made these four walls from three different genetic lines. We made these from three different genetic lines, right? So there's actually more genetic diversity in these wolves than what's alive in the population. And we said we'd like for you to help protect the work that's being done in Louisiana. And then how many wolves would you like us to make using that population as well as frozen samples that are dead, and we'll just give them to you. There's no cost. Here was the feedback. We need to spend five to six years on an internal study and spend $22 million to see if it's possible to clone wolves. And I was blown away, I was like, oh, I'm so sorry. I wasn't very clear. This is a cloned wolf. Like here, you can fly with me to the preserve, you're a sign in the A, but you fly with me, sir. And they're like, we need to spend five to six years and 20 plus million dollars to go understand this. To understand this, we'll give you all of the technology. And if you tell me you want a hundred wolves, I'll just make you a hundred wolves. And we'll even engineer in more genetic diversity for you. And the response was, we'll get back to you. We went to, we tried to have three other meetings, no shooting canceled every time. When we flew there, I just got back from a meeting with the Department of Interior, which Fish and Wildlife rolls up to. And they're very, very focused on innovation, not regulation, which has been pretty amazing. That's great. And immediately they said, we celebrate Doug Burglum, the Secretary of Interior there who we met with, said, we celebrate. He's a huge conservationist, huge Teddy Roosevelt guy, member of the Explorer's Club. And he's like, we do not have a celebration when animals come off the endangered species list. Only about 3% ever come off. And we're really good at putting them on and we celebrate putting them on. So we have to do something about this. And if you're saying that we could productionize species, and as long as we have the right support to rewild them, people can use your technologies for free to make more of these different species that are critically endangered, while also bio-banking the samples along the way. He's like, why wouldn't we do this? And I was like, why about the previous folks? And they said that we need, you know, five years, and 20 million, that they were gonna spend the internal, they were gonna be as us to do the feasibility. So they were gonna spend it internally on this. And we're like, we'll just do it for free. And he's like, we will completely support the initiative and we're gonna help get you plugged in. So you can help bio-bank our species and also help us support, you know, Red Wolf Conservation. - So when we used to reintroducing these? So we just had that meeting last week. - So less Red Wolf from hell. (laughing) - You've created a lab, they're gonna start eating people. - And so we're gonna get it. - We just met them last week. - Well, it's, they're beautiful. God, they're so beautiful. - Well, it's just, like, why, we shouldn't be afraid of innovation, right? - No, but you know the real question is, where do you stop? - Yeah. - Because 90, what percent of all animals that have ever existed, all species are extinct? - Yeah. - Like, are we gonna, I think you focus on the species that are critically endangered and our keystone species meaning the environment needs them. - Right, but you're bringing your back. - But the ones that we drove to extinction, right? Okay, so that's what it's- - So it's debatable whether or not we drove dire wolf's to extinction. We don't really know what happened 10,000 years ago. I'm inclined to think that when you see the death of 65% of North American megafauna that happened really quickly. - Really quickly? - Yeah, I'm inclined to think that these scientists that believe it was an asteroid in our common impact are correct. - I think it's a, I think it's a, most likely it's a combination. We do know that when early, that anthropologic effects from humans, that when early man went on to, onto a landmass at scale, that that, you know, we start to see that. We say that in Australia and other places. But to your point, it's much slower. It's much, much slower. - This is a different thing. - Yeah. Are you gonna bring back saber to tigers? - We, so we get, everyone seems that they're favorite animal for us to save, right? Like, the key to my favorite. - Direals, yeah. - Yeah, that was in my favorite. - Direals, you gotta come, maybe at some point you see them, but they're amazing. I mean, they're beautiful animals. So, we, they're in there, so saber to tiger is a class. We put it, that is a class. Most commonly people think of the smile on as the saber to tiger. There's not to date been really great smile on DNA. There is great home of theetherium DNA, which is another type of saber toothic. - Oh, I didn't know there was more than one type of saber to. - They classify them differently, you know, based on that. - Obviously you've been studying this, so you're thinking about doing it. I'm not, I mean, we like to study ancient DNA, right? Like, you know, one of the things where I think that, you know, John Reeves is 100% right is people say, there were no saber to tigers in Alaska. he that that's just an incorrect statement there were no there are probably no smiley don's there but there are home of the area which are a saber tooth cat yeah he's found things that were not supposed to be high i've held things in his eyes i've had a diol school in it in his uh. i hope he's fine he's in that in his uh. facility yeah i think he's talked about that but they found cave bear short face bears while so home with the ira mistil a saber tooth cat but when what happens is it this goes back to that philosophical that philosophical perspective they think that only so if you look up smile it on in comparison uh. so this has shorter saber teeth but still but you know that c_g_i_ image of it again jimmy left that's so fucking cool yeah and and and i don't think they don't think you should bring something like that back but if you do i'm gonna visit it i want to see that they take down a bite really was haze there was a i mean wait you see the diral bro but that would be so crazy now i'm sure all of the sudden i want you to do it now you give me another large picture of it jimmy there's some other pictures of those so smile don't the one has the largest teeth it has the largest known teeth uh. uh. but that when people think of saber tooth tiger this is what right that's a crazy what they think of those are crazy i wonder how white nature wanted to have that i mean probably having to pierce things like mammoth hides and i'm quite it has to be right something where you there's a genetic advantage is look at that one of the right lower right jimmy below that to blow that to the right to the right there yeah right there look at that man and i i love because we don't you know it's amazing we don't have the d_n_a_ from it so we have no idea what the color pattern is right you can see here right it's like it's got a short tail so long tail it's got leopard it's got stripes right we don't even know if they had long tail they could have been white wow that would be wild so we do have there there have been some really well preserved pups in others of in the permafrost of uh. homotherium whoo uh. almost you know how's that kind of coloration to it we don't uh. i don't want to say we do or don't we have not done the analysis on that on the area we do we do have the genome of it though uh. not that we're gonna work out of that as brown here have you seen the uh. have you seen the uh. american uh. short-faced where you have that's the thing i'm probably the most care of you can bring up a seventeen or eighteen foot giant i've worked with our work out of the same but somebody might that's the problem there might be some fucking crack at out there that's got forty billion dollars it's out of his mind well i also think that what some crazy dude just got the resources that's in the that you know that is that to me is neglondon scary in a lot of my man yeah that land neglect well that that is an enormous animal and they think that's one of the animals that probably prevented people from crossing the bearing straight uh. more i read that yeah it was it's a theory but it's a prop pretty good one yeah you knew that if you use a lineage of like super you know polar bears were out there i would go near it and it is essentially a super polar bear which is really scary because polar bears are terrifying and completely carnivorous and they don't care they'll just walk right up to you and kill you oh yeah there's a great video of uh. these guys that are uh. behind defense yeah that was some decent to me yesterday oh fuck i'll find it i know where it is uh. someone sent me yesterday of these guys that are right behind defense what is polar bears trying to get through the fence three of them and there you know they're talked to like hey big guy you can't come in here hey fellow it's just common walking towards like i'm gonna get in there exactly yeah it's it's polar bears scary very spooky well they're spooky because they don't eat anything but meet so we're on the menu yeah all humans are on the menu anything that walks and breezes on the menu i got here where is it shit it'll take me a few minutes sorry jamey pauses for a second let me find this because it's good okay i just sent it to you so um. i'm i look like they're in i don't know where they are little i think it'll stay in the video so these guys here give me some volume polar bears that's an oil rig so it's probably canada look at these guys that sound yeah they're just trying to eat you look at this i'm too more blinded yep go on go on probably not gonna work they're just trying to figure out how to get in the sweetheart sweetheart sweetheart wants a rip your liver out go on they're beautiful they are beautiful it's interesting that they're the most dangerous ones because the other ones we use for coke cola and clon dike bars yeah in that wild don't you have them just like playing around in the snow but they're actually terrifying yeah you were saying the younger dry is really interesting it's very very interesting because it's a fairly new theory and explains a lot and especially when you look at the the mass extinction that that did take place during that time i would love to see what it looked like when all those animals were around like what what was a you know we kind of have a sense of what because of safaris and videos we know what it looks like when lions are interacting with will to be synaphyrically like what did it look like in Kansas yeah like that yeah like what was it like you know there's a extinct bison species that is uh. the bison lot of fron's yeah yeah yeah yeah they're like they're like eight foot long taxes long horns crazy on like you know super hd h like bison yeah our bison are small compared to the extinct bison right with any largest of the north american bison yeah love that the bison lot of fron's was see if you can a photo of that yeah there are no about that until a few years ago yeah i didn't even know that was a thing it's it mean there was so many different things giant sloths there's the saber to tiger the american lion which is there in the american cheetah yes the american cheetah you know we have we have we have full genome of it and then there's a uh. there was also in one of my favorite animals which is kind of a weird one probably on the list since we're talking about diarwolves and saber to tigers uh. if you see the stellar c cow no what is that think of like a manatee or do gong right that's the size of like a large whale what yeah and it but the sad thing is it died out it actually died off before it died off and yeah it died off that within a hundred years of its discovery when was that we killed the mall huh yeah we can probably turn them in the candles yeah yeah they're sick burn their fat yeah so but it was actually really hard yeah this serenian to ever exist is haunted extinction only thirty years after being discerred years and the eighteenth century wow yeah and it was and we actually have a fuck it we have a full genome of this to which pretty cool bring back we can't just i would bring this back in heartbeat it was hugely important to the california the pacific northwest it was great it's a great it's not scary it's huge it's like but then now the ring that back why wouldn't you bring back a megalondon there is no megalondia and there's none now i will say that the c_e_o_ of the largest uh. the the presidency of the largest free museum in america really wants to be the megalondon but he keeps like i can't ever say that haha that's how it is out of the video that there's a lot of museums i i could be wrong on the side yeah whatever he's great though uh. but there is there is no d_n_a_ but i have to eat a lot but i'm not killed everything in the ocean so one of the things that's weird interesting that we're also working on is artificial wounds at colossal because if you want to get to this world where you could production eyes endangered species like northern white rhinos instead of having to use serigates for an animal welfare perspective you know you go if you can get the point that you can engineer genetic diversity into two hundred northern white rhinos grow them in labs and bags and then work with and then you can control that population very very well uh. you can then reintroduce them you know with uh. folks in the field that are the rewilding experts right and so we we're not really not focusing on the we rely on third parties on the rewilding modeling uh. in all of our you know forty eight conservation partners we're really just kind of focus on the kind of the core science that supports their initiatives uh. but if if we are successful with our artificial wounds and we are quite um. we are quite far on that project that uh. you know you i would not be surprised if eventually you see a we have to get a mouse first but if i have to have you guys have these conversations where you sit down you go how does this scale outward what does this look like this technology in a hundred years did we just fuck up no i think i i think that if you look at the birthing crisis that that were in and been kind of population decline prices crisis i think that you you look at global you like um. people having a women having kids later uh. IVF clinics uh. people freezing their embryos all of that's massively on on on the incline you know on the increase all going up to the right right uh. and we also know that like uh. globally like sperm and fertility and others is going down to the right right so it's not a good look for the future of humanity in general and so i think though you know especially when we also have philosophical and uh. you've religious you feel softball and then you have social social social issues right that people have different perspectives on like having kids having kids same sc couple's get all these things So we at Colossal have kind of made this mandate that we're not going to work on humans. right, because it's just, it gets too weird. We get asked in the end or at all on the dinosaur question every fucking day. So we're just not gonna like bridge that gap. What we'll do is spin out those technologies. But I do think it is harder to grow a rhino in an artificial womb or exogenous development system than it is a human, not ethically or through an FDA process. But it is scientifically harder to gestate some of the animals we're trying to gestate X utero. So I do think that some of those technologies could make it eventually into the human population. - But that's where it gets really weird, right? You could create a child with no mother or father. - I do think that, I think it's about optionality, right? I think that there are certain situations where that would be a blessing. I just had my first kid. So we did not grow an artificial womb. - Yeah, but I mean, the people that are skeptical about this stuff, this is what they point to. It's like what is involved in the creation of life? Well, it's been people having sex and then asperm fertilizes the egg. A child is born, they raise the child, they get some of their behavior characteristics, it gets the genetics, and then we integrate it into a community and there's life. But if you could just make life without any of that. Like what is that? That's, where is that? You know what I'm saying? - No, it's a great philosophy. - How much of the child's development is taking place while it's in the mother and in getting the sharing that it shares. - It's the hormonal cues and what not. - I wouldn't have a child that way. - Right, what if you're making a sociopath? Like what if you're making a completely positive - Because there's no empathy. - There's no connection. - No connection to people. They come out out of the gate, Ted Kuzinsky, all fucked up. Like really, that's a fair point. - We don't know what the process is while a baby is inside of a woman's body. - And there's people that are working on this technology specifically for humans. Like right now we're focusing on it for extinct species and endangered animals. - But the question was, wouldn't this scales out? When you scale out a hundred years from now? Like what did you just do? - Well I think, I mean my biggest thing that I think would be helpful is if we had a world where we, like if Klausel gets ultimate success, I would say that we've successfully rewilded animals back into their natural habitat. We've revitalized these mosaic ecosystems that, you know, including your picture of what did the Arctic look like back in the day? Like how do we have that? 'Cause that was actually a crazy, if you look at the work that's been done in Pleistening Park by Sergei Nikita Zimoff, they've actually shown that rewilding northern Siberia with cold tolerant megafauna actually can revitalize the ecosystem. It can add more biodiversity. It can actually keep the ground temperatures colder in the winter, so it's the questers more carbon. So I think this idea of nature-based and living with nature in an ecological model is something that, you know, I hope that we are successful at. And I hope that Klausel's also successful at, you know, removing animals from the endangered species list. - So what you were talking about, you were talking about mammoths specifically, this study that showed that it would help. - But they've already done it with like, muscox, horses, and a few other species up there. So they're doing it right now. - Right, they've been doing it for over 20 years. And there was some talk about eventually doing this with mammoths and then releasing those mammoths in the Siberia. - Yeah, that was something that Larry, or that Sergei Nikita Zimoff wanted to do. - How long have you formed some Russian oligarch on some mammoth? - Yeah, I mean, look, given the geopolitical, we see, going back to your wolf example, we see boundaries in geopolitical lines, right? The animals don't, right? And so we will probably not rewild our first mammoths in Siberia for many reasons. - But you think you will rewild the mammoth? - Yeah, I think, you know, our goal, like, not to, if you, like if Jamie, if you look at colossal.com, forage/tasmania, for example, we actually build working groups with folks around, like everyone from academia to private landowners, to indigenous people groups, governments, to understand, like, we don't have a thylacene. - I think we'll have a thylacene in the next eight years. I really do. I think based on where we are, current course and speed, there's 70 million years of genetic diverge in between a fat tailed denar, which is like a mouse size marsupial, and a wolf in this, right? But we actually, and if you just kind of scroll through into the people, so it's a wolf-like marsupial. - Yeah. - Does it actually have a pouch? - It does. It actually also has a backward pouch. - So most pouches, other than like, the wombat are forward facing. - And it's backwards, 'cause they think because it was burrowing it, burrowing it. - So that's where you were in the babies. - Yeah, like that's where you suck at them. - But nature's fascinating. - But if you scroll down a little bit further, you'll see, and just like, if you just do a quick scroll, you'll see that we actually have gone out and partnered with all these different groups, even though we don't have thylacenes. We have quarterly meetings in Tasmania around rewilding the thylacene with, and in one of the groups that we have involved in, is the Login Commission. It's going back to your, how do we live with nature, kind of like with your example with the cattlemen and the ranchers? Well, the biggest economic driver right now in Tasmania is actually the Login Commission. So if you think that you're gonna reintroduce an animal back without them or their lobbyists having an, and into the forest, without them having a perspective, then I think that's just a naive way to look at the world. And so we going back to the thylacene and mammoths and others, we try to build these working groups in ahead of time so that people can get excited about, you know, what are the challenges? What are the unintended consequences? And that's not our job to persuade them. It's just our job to kind of listen to them and then figure it out. And you know, that approach of like listening to our critics and listening and being inclusive in these communities has helped us, I think, dramatically think through what our rewilding strategies are. So when you have a rewilding strategy, what experts do you bring in to have this discussion of what kind of an impact this could be, I mean, you haven't done any rewilding, which be clear to everybody, they're not releasing darewolds. - And a woolly mice are not getting released. - Right, right, yes. - So this is all theoretical. But if you do have one, what would be the, what would you look at specifically, how do you take into account all the different species, do you take into account like with a thylacene, particularly because it's a large predator, the amount of animals it's going to eat, these animals are not conditioned, they haven't evolved to be around this thing. It's been, well, so almost a hundred years since the last one was there. - So on the evolve part, this is actually kind of weird. So you do ecological field studies. So you work with ecologists, conservationists, predator experts, like people that understand predation, people that understand the land. So you have to work with these kind of big working groups. We have a project going on right now in Central, Tasmania, which is amazing. And this, you know, the old school, like loony tunes, like Wiley Coyote worries, like, and he goes through a wall and there's like, or the cool lady man, right? Well, if you had that cut out, we made cut outs and painted them of thylacines, but also of cats and dogs and other things, and wolves and other things. And we put them out in your camera traps in Central Tasmania. And when we've reviewed the data, you'll have like a call or a wombat or one of these animals kind of walking through, or even a wallaby kind of walking through. And they'll see a cat, they'll see a cat on the cat, look at it. When they see, and remember, to your point, this is hundreds, this is, for them, is multiple generations, right? 'Cause these animals have a lot of hundreds of years. And so when they see the cut out and shape and the coloration and size of a thylacine, they freeze and they absolutely freak out. Wow. Yeah. So we've been collecting this data for 18 months and we're publishing a paper on it. So that is so cool. There's like generational trauma that is baked in to their DNA. To avoid a thylacine. Let's see the only way they survive. I mean, without a language to pass down information, how, what, you know, it makes you wonder like how much of that is an us? Like what, when people have a phidiaphobia, you know, or a racnephobia, fear of snakes and spiders, like what is that from? Like, 'cause it's crippling. I've seen people that have crippling fear of spiders, or it doesn't even make any sense. Well, they probably, somebody got almost killed by a spider and that's inside of them, you know? That those genes passed on. And then you see it's part of just, they freak out, man. When I was doing fear factor, we had, if we found out that someone had a fear of spiders or a fear of snakes, guess what? That was on the show. That's on the show. Yeah, and that's like me and Heights. It's like every, every episode you have back in the day of Heights. That's 'cause you're smart. Yeah, it's like fucking terrifying. It's terrifying. Yeah. Whatever I'm in a fucking hotel, and I'm on like the 54. Yeah. Why? Yeah. So I don't have like, really noise. I'm like, but it's gonna be really hard to get out of here. It's so sketchy. It's so scary. It's just like the building moves a little bit when it's windy. Yeah. Fuck all this. It's so much toilet water shaking. Fuck that, dude. No. Here? Yeah, Jamie leaves way up high. Jamie sends me pictures from his house. I freak out. Like no. No, I can't. No, no, no, no. I just, I like to bend the ground. I like to be on the ground. Why hate flying too, which sucks because I fly. Yeah. I fly all the time. Just counting on these fucking screws and bolts and shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 'Cause like the worst is like when you're sitting there, and there's now been like these renders of planes that have like glass or plexiglass. I'm like, I don't wanna see that. I get mad if I get on a plane and the people don't shut the windows. I'm in the tube. It's literally fired. I just, I just wanna go. Yeah, I get, just saying. 'Cause if you think about the point where you're sitting in a chair and then you look down and you have a floor, you're like, that's not, there's not that much. There's like 10,000. - And three thousand feet below me. - When you see something like the one that happened in Canada where the plane flipped upside down too, you can't get that one out of your head. - A Delta Airlines life. - Yeah. - Yeah, it wasn't like. - Yeah, whoopsies. - Crazy airline you've never heard of. - It was a person who was not that good at flying and kind of recent. - Yeah. - Like, hey. - Yeah. - The higher some of it better. - Yeah, and I got a DC, a decent amount. And so the whole DC thing, absolutely freaked me out. - Oh yeah. - Yeah. - 'Cause sometimes I stay at some of those hotels that are right on the river, and you see the chopper fly. You see the chopper fly. - Right, that's the DC one. - Look how much the water's shaking at this pool. - Oh yeah, do you see the one in Thailand? - This is where it was. - Oh, did you see the water that's flying off the roofs? - Yeah, in the, in the, flying off the roofs where you see like from the ground, it looks like it's raining. It's crazy. - Anyway. - Yeah, whoa, that would be the last day I would spend in that fucking room. - Yeah, you're out. - That's it. - It's like in my son's. - Bye bye. - If I saw a ghost, I'm like, all right, I'm moving. - Yeah, bye bye. - Maybe, maybe the ghost is cool. I'm not totally scared of ghosts, 'cause I don't think ghosts have ever killed anybody. You know, I'm scared of thylacines. (laughing) - I'm not scared of thylacines. - I'm not. - They start off the size of a grain of rice. - I mean, that's gonna be really nice to them. - It's kinda like, yeah, you gotta be really nice to it. - Yes. - I saw a great gift. I saw this, this great image on X the other day that is like, it's got all the room, it's lining up to kill humans, and it's like, no, not this one. It's like, thank you and it's request. - Oh boy. - So I was like, I'm gonna be very nice on all of my requests on Grock. - Well, I have a weird situation going on at my house, 'cause I have chickens, but I eat chicken. And I don't eat the chickens that I have. I eat their eggs. But they're cute. I'm like, hey girls, what's up ladies? - Yeah. - I have no desire to harm them. I try to protect them. If I'm driving on the driveway, and one of them is in the middle of the drive, I have to be very slow and let her cross. But I eat chicken. - Did you see that study that came out a couple weeks ago that having two eggs, I'm gonna get the numbers wrong, but you have two eggs, at least two eggs a week, that it lowers the probability of Alzheimer's by like 47%. - Yeah. It turns out Alzheimer's connected to a lot of stuff that's inside. - Right, inflammation. Yeah. - Yeah. - Unfortunately. - They're saying that Gary said it was, I think it was Gary that was telling me that he thought it was like, and it's now becoming a more popular belief that it's diabetes type three. - Yes. - Yeah, I've heard that. Which is really weird to think of it that way. But it's just so much, I mean obviously you know this now because you're on a health path. - Yeah. - And you feel much better. - I feel incredible. I mean, I didn't know how many people are just running around out there feeling like shit. - Well, I was. I was. I mean, part of the reason I started colossal, I mean, I told you the story about how I got with George, but before that, I built a handful of different technology companies. My last company was a satellite software and defense company, and was building it, running it, and this was in early, late 2020 and early 2020, I had to be in Tokyo and I had to be in Shanghai. So I came back, I went to CES, the big consumer electronic show in Vegas, saw everyone in the world right that's there, 'cause it's stupid big. We can have later, I'm in NASA Marshall with the director there, 'cause we're doing some work for NASA at the time of my last company. And I was with one of my number two of the company, this guy named Greg, who's our chief strategy officer. He was coughing, he wasn't feeling well, we both were kind of feeling like shit. I was like, no, we've been on the road a lot, we've been drinking, we came back on a Friday night, we were going back on Slack, talking about aliens and shit. And then the next day, I got a conference wife that had a sudden cardiac event. - Oh, Jesus. - And so that for me was a big wake up call, 'cause I got really sick during COVID. Like I was on that early strain of COVID. And there's definitely multiple strange on COVID anyone tells you, there's definitely multiple things that came out of the thing. And so I got super, super sick. And I now rarely drink, I rarely have caffeine. I've kind of tried to cut out stuff, exercise regularly. And looking at all these things that people think are weird or that used to be weird or alternative, like a dry sauna, a cold plunge, red light, I do that every day now. - Every day. - Every day. - Yeah, that's beautiful. - That's awesome, man. You're lifting weights too. - Yeah, lifting weights on a regiment, everything. - That's so important. And I tell people, it's not even a vanity thing. Don't do it 'cause you want big muscles. Preserve your tissue. - Yeah. - Preserve your bone mass. - Well, I don't want to be like, I now have a nine-month-old son, right? And he wants to hang out and he's gonna get bigger. And if I can't pick him up, that's a sad day. And I've kind of gotten this mindset of like, you know, I see people that are older that are in wheelchairs or can't walk. It's kind of a blessing to walk. - It is. - So like, why would I squander that blessing? Why would I not like lean into it and make sure that when I'm 90, I can walk? - Yeah, it's a blessing to be healthy. It's a blessing. I mean, we're so concerned about our day-to-day existence. - Yeah. - We lose track of this big picture. You have the opportunity to do something that if it wasn't possible, you would wish it was possible. And that is get healthier. Like if it wasn't possible, if we just existed in a state, and whatever that state was, there's no medicine that could fix it, there's no exercise that could fix it, diet doesn't change it. This is just who you are as a being, and it goes away. But that's not even remotely true. It's actually the opposite. There's friends that I have that are my age, and they look like they're my dad. And that's 'cause they've been drinking and smoking and sleeping late and fucking off their whole life and no exercise at all, and your body deteriorates. - Yeah, and I'm not, like I'm on the journey. I'm not at the end, right? It is a constant journey. - I'm on the journey. We're all on the journey. - But like, it's just an end. - It's just sort of working with Gary. Like I did, have you seen this function test? Have you done the function test? - What is the function test? - It's like function health. It's like a, it's just a suit. It's just all, if you go to your doctor, like I do quarterly blood work, but then I also then do this, the function test, which is a massively all-encompassing test, the blood. It's like two tests, twice a year. And so I do that test, and after working with Gary for a while, you know, now my biological age, or my actual age is 43, my biological age is 35. - That's amazing. - It's just been working for a year, with Gary taking the right supplements, getting the right routine, taking myself nutrients. You know, I buy, and you can actually taste a difference, right? Like if you go to the store and get it steak or chicken, and even if it's like free range and all that shit, it tastes great. It tastes better than like something that you buy, just that's terrible at a store. But when you order from some of these like true, like omesh places and places that have actually like grown the food, like completely natural, that it doesn't have just a fake pre-purchased certified organic, you can taste the difference in the nutrient density. It's insane. - Have you had a lot of wild game? - Yeah, so that's what I order now. So I order a bunch, so I do elk steaks. I do a lot of steaks from this farm that Gary recommended. To me, it's just great. - Is it bison? Do they have bison to have bison to, yeah, it's Parker Pastris. - They're just like when I have a steak from these guys, like you can taste it. And I've had like my brother-in-law and my father-in-law had friends, I was like, no, no, we're gonna try these steaks out of the freezer. Like we're not just gonna buy something. - Well it looks different. - It looks different, yeah, it looks like the coloration. - You get a pink steak from the grocery store. Which is fine, you cook it, it tastes great. But if you get a grass-fed, grass-finished steak, like grass-finished, 100%. - A lot of ranch is out here. You know, Texas is a great place. There's a lot of ranch is out here that these regenerative agriculture and they sell the animals that they kill. And it's like a dark red meat. - Yeah, it looks completely different. But it tastes different. - It tastes different. - You want to eat more of it. Like I feel full, but I want to finish it. And I also feel like my body likes this because it's getting shit that it hasn't been getting. - You feel better when you eat it. You literally feel energized. You know, I've given people elk before. And one of the things I say is like, do you have so much energy? I'm like, yes, welcome to my world. - It's awesome. It is so great. But in the early days of Colossal, that was one of the things that we got asked by heads of state, not by random people. We're gonna be all on the internet, do it. Mostly some people at large at different locations, they're like, can we eat them? Can we eat a mama? What's it taste like? That was like, that question came up faster than we thought. - Jesus Christ. - And this isn't the first. - I know, that was in the first. - It was so weird. - Like they just don't eat. I've heard you want to eat something that's been extinct for 10,000 years. You just bring it back. - And that's not even yet. - Yeah, and that was the first question. - Can I eat this? - Yeah. - I won't wooly me on my steak, my friend. - It was also domestic. The question, having domestic. - Oh, domestic. - Yeah. - Like people in very good states. - I know. - I have too much money. - Yeah. - Fucking psychos. - Yeah, it's been, it's been. - It's been. - Go buy a car, you retard. It's been. - I'm gonna eat a mammoth. That's so crazy. - We get the dime, we get that. We get it so many weird questions. We get the dinosaur question. The probably the number one question we get is the dinosaur question. - Do you think if they brought Jurassic Park, if Spielberg did it today, they'd have feathers? - We know that some dinosaurs had feathers. We know some had hair, like hair, like kind of precursor to feathers. And we know some that were just scale. We have preserves of them. We can see in the fossil record, whether they had it. - Have you seen the one that's in the Montana University? There's a university in Bozeman that has a museum. Isn't the university? It might just be a museum. But when I was visiting there a few years back, they have a like a raptor. And one side of the raptor is feathered. And the other side is like Jurassic Park, like Scaly. And you know, you look at it and you go, "Oh, it's just like, oh, that's a fucking, it's a bird." Like now it makes sense. Like makes more sense. Yeah. but arms, it makes more sense. - I mean, have you seen the Watson? - No. - Can we pull up a Watson? - So this is a bird that lives today in the Amazon. And it is, it's called our Hoatson. I think it's a lot, I don't know how you just about it. It's like HOA, TZE, and or something like that. We can find it. Yeah, apparently it also smells terrible. But if you type in, oh yeah, it's the Hoatson, and then if you click in and find a baby picture, it's got these little creepy hands. It looks like kind of like a bird, like dinosaur. We did the Gina one, this was fun. So, oh yeah, you can see it. It's like, it climbs. So before there are flimes, it actually climbs up everything. - Well, when you look at an eagle's talent, you'll look at what the hell is that? - And then it evolves, like if you, the first kind of like quote unquote dinosaur bird up there, it actually, yeah, it crawls. It crawls like, it doesn't fly. You know, most birds just sit there with their little wing nubs and just don't do anything. These guys actually climb. - What about terror birds? - Oh yeah, this is scary. - Well, that's a crazy animal. Like what the hell was that thing? What was that, how many years ago did those things go extinct? - Oh, there's one million. - Millions, right? - Yeah, so. - The oldest DNA that we have, is it all 1.5 million years old? - That's it, yeah. - So the other sort of-- - So, so you can, a guy you should talk to about not that, but that's interesting is Kenneth Lackavaro. He discovered the four largest dinosaurs of all time, including dreadnoughtis, which is just, it's the craziest thing ever. - And going back to-- - Dreadnoughtis. And going back to the issues that, - What is dreadnoughtis? - Oh, dreadnoughtis is amazing. So, I don't know if it'll take that. - Whoa. - Whoa, look, look. - Imagine it, yeah, go to that. - What cool colors? - Yeah, here it is, so it's a planet. - Yeah, it's a planet here, it's a size of like seven. - So it's like, seven, three. - But it's almost as big as a seven, 37. - That's so crazy. - Going back to this crazy notion of museums, he found it in Argentina. And he, like, he's a, Kenneth Lackavaro, he's amazing. He found it in Argentina. Discovered the species, named the species. And he brought it, he brought it to New Jersey to do all the modeling and all that. The government changed and they anchored back. You know the old school, like the end of Raiders, the Lost Ark, that's where it is. It's basically in a warehouse. So it's on display for people in a museum. It's literally, this goes back to some of these, these governments in these museums. It's literally like, not on, it's in a bunch of crates in Western Argentina. - Really? - Yeah. And it's like the coolest thing ever. This is, yeah, so, yeah, that's Lackavaro's lab. And so, but it's truly, truly amazing. So with these, like that's one of the things about dinosaurs in museums, right? Like a lot of them, they've created artificial bones to fill in the blanks. - Yeah, fill in a lot of blanks. Sometimes they'll get like a jawbone and they're like, and here's the reconstruction. - Right, it's weird because you go to see it and you think you're going to see a dinosaur bone. - And it's only a percentage complete. - Yeah, and sometimes they're real clever and sometimes they're not, like sometimes they'll, it'll be different colors for the real bone versus, and you're like, how much of this do you have? And they're like four percent. - Yeah, how did you guess what it looked like? Like, and a lot of the images, like of like the soft tissue overlay, like when they take the bones and then they create an animal out of it, like, if you're seeing like what like rabbits look like, if you take away the, yeah, they did this with like, whales and stuff and you look absolutely, if you look at, like the scariest things ever and then you put it all whale in there and you're like, oh, that's not the worst thing. - Yeah, for whales, you see them and you look at them, you're like, oh, they're sweet. - Yeah. - Woo, just chilling in the water, but if you see them with the teeth and everything and just the skeleton. - It looks like an alien monster. - Yeah, like an alien monster. So I wonder what we were looking at. - There was a, there was a, one species that we don't have DNA for, that would be amazing to bring back because the ecological benefit is, there was a giant beaver. - Yeah. - A giant beaver sounds amazing and stupid. - When did that thing die off? - I don't know, I'd probably have to be, it would probably be in the late Plei-Cestine. - One of the things that I learned through Rinella is that at the founding of this country in the early days, the richest man in the world was selling beaver pelts. - Oh, really? - And it was the richest guy in the world. - Yeah. - Here at the Plei-Cestine. - Well, on the dinosaur bed. - So this beaver, giant beaver, enormous, bear-sized beaver that lived in North America during the Plei-Cestine. Wow, so when did these die off? What year, what was the Plei-Cestine officially? - So about 13,000 years ago. - I could have been the same thing. - 12,000 years. - So it probably died off during that same kind of-- - American lion and all that other stuff. And you know, the pronghorn, you know, the whole story of the whole thing. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - That's why they're so fast. - Oh, because of the American lion? - No, American Cheetah. - American Cheetah. - Like they're the last of these animals. They're a bizarre animal. Have you ever seen one real life? - No, I've never seen one real life. - I've only seen it through binoculars. I've never seen one, you know, on the ground real close. I've only seen it from a few hundred yards away. But when you look at images of them, they have insane eyesight. They have almost 360 degree vision. Their eyes are on the side of their heads. - Yeah, I've seen it a little way. - And they can run 55 miles an hour. And the reason why they can run so fast is because they were getting chased by Cheetahs that don't exist anymore. So the Cheetahs died off in the younger drys impact or whatever happened. But these pronghorn antelopes remain. And they are, there's nothing like them in terms of speed. - That's awesome. - They're really bizarre because they're a remnant of an older past where they had to be that fast to avoid the predators, but the predators are gone. They remain. - Yeah, so they can't even catch them now. - Nothing. Once they're done, like once they're grown, good fucking luck. They have insane eyesight. But you know one of the ways that people hunt them, they're really dumb. One of the ways people hunt them is on horsebacks, like that dog has zero chance. But the Cheetahs were chasing these motherfuckers down. So it's like another, you know, different kind of antelope. But a super fast, they're quite a bit faster, I bet, than these antelope. They're crazy fast. There's like nothing like them in North America. - That's awesome. - But the vision that these things have, give me a photo of one of their heads, pronghorn's eyes. They're so weird looking. They look archaic. Like if you see their face, they don't look like, they look like they're from another time. - It's the same from a Star Wars movie. - Yeah, they look like they're from another time. - Yeah. - And they are. - They're literally on the side there. - Yeah. This is what would have been so amazing to like look at what the earth looked like, you know, 12,000 years ago. - It is cool. - America. - To your point when you travel and you go to these different places where you have, they're truly more remote. Right, and I'm not just talking about like Yellowstone, but you know, like when you said, you were like going to Krueger National Park or looking at some of these places in Africa, when you go to Central Tasmania, it's almost like a weird Disney movie. Like at dusk, you've got like a kidnas running around and you've got wallabies jumping through it. - Oh wow. - And they all just come through and you're like, it's like that scene in like Ace Ventura, right? Where he sings, like everything fucking comes to him. And like I remember the first, I was like, this isn't real. Like are these animals trying to, like there's no way there's this much life in biodiversity. And it was all just like, you know, the kidnas running, the wallabies are jumping. You've got like, wall bats, like kind of, like kind of scurrying along and you're just like, there's always weird dumb animals. They're just excited, you know, they're so strange to us, right? In terms of how we think about them, 'cause you never see them. But then there's just like this insane plethora of them. They're just so many, it's crazy. - Well, I wonder what would be different had the thylacene survived. - So they say that. - So it was kind of the only thing that was-- - It was the only apex predator for Tasmania in lower Australia. And have you seen a Tasmania devil in person? - Not in person. - They're awesome. - They look cool as shit. They're cool shit. They're also, they're, they're eating these little packs. And the reason why they call them Tasmania devils is because they make the weirdest, I mean, they make sense. If I heard the sounds that they make, if you're out in the woods, you hear that sound. You're like, this is a mott, this is sasklatches. - Yeah, they're crazy. See if you can hear someone. - Jesus, refer to Tasys as their devils. - Oh, you know. - Dude, do that superficial resentment. - Oh, cute face. - You find them eating, they just sound terrible. - Find a Tasmanian tiger noises. - Oh, they know what they make. - Or, excuse me, Tasmania devil noises, sorry. Sorry, not. - Have you seen this video though? - I have, yeah. We can go to that in a second too. I just wanna hear this. (crashing) (crashing) Look at that fucker. (crashing) - Look at this face. - No, wait. (crashing) - So, and so they, so they're, they're part of the reason why they're, but that, that isn't terrifying. - You think they're giving each other cancer? - Yeah, that's what I'm saying. - Yeah. - And many of the researchers in Tasmania in Australia think that if the thylacen was there, because this is where people give wolves and thylacen's and predators bad, but they go after the, there's an energy expenditure ratio, right? They're not just sitting there grazing, they're not getting sedentary. They have to go make the kill. They have to decide, I'm gonna go kill stuff. So they kill the young, so they're thinning out the weakest. They kill the old and they kill the sick. A, an environment that has the right balance of predator and prey is a healthy ecosystem, including for those prey species. And all data that we've seen on the thylacen suggest that they actually ate kind of that mezzanine level of marsupials. And so many people believe that the facial tumor disease would not, if you've seen, it's, I don't know if you should show us disgusting. - It's really gross. - But that face, what are we looking at here? - Oh, feeding frenzy? - It's like a feeding weird 360. - Yeah, give me some volume. It's doing it right in front of people too. - It's crazy. - There might be time. - Yeah. - Yeah. Fed 'em like this, it's crazy. - They just not scared. - Watch how fast they are capable of consuming this. - They're like piranhas, the world. - And these are Tasmanian devils, the only carnivorous marsupial that we have ever featured on camera. And next to Tasmanian. - It's so cool that they're not - Is that kind of-- - They're a boldly scared of people. - Yeah, they don't even know you're there, it's crazy. So if you feed them like this, you can put a piece of-- - Whose video is this, Jimmy? - Coyote Peterson. - A brave wilderness. - Look at these little fuckers, guys. - And then they just make these sounds, but they often get into fights. And that fighting is when they-- That's when they do the transmission. (laughing) - Oh, right, you see a battle fight. - No, I mean like. - But they literally scratch and bite each other and then they transmit this, it's the only transmissible cancer that we know of. So then it latches onto the next face through biting. And if you see an animal with a Tasmanian devil with the facial tumor disease, and you see them, like they can't walk well, they can't receive well, those are the animals that would be picked up at predators first. And so there's a big movement within Tasmanian in lower Australia, a Southern Australia, that if we could reintroduce a predator being the thylacine, it would eat-- - Oh, I can't even look. - Oh, God. - We're looking for people listening, we're looking at tumors on Tasmanian devil's faces. - Yeah, they're just terrible. - Well, that was a perfect inspiration for a comic book character, or for a cartoon character rather than the Tasmanian devil. - Yeah, Tasmanian devil. - I mean, they're like, they'll be sitting there not making those sounds. They start eating or they get threatened and they make those death sounds. You were at, it is a terrible, because if you've never heard it before in person, it just catches you by surprise and it blows you away. So it was a pretty weird experience for some of that. - Yeah, I'd imagine there's such a cool little animal. So the idea of ultimately eventually releasing thylacine, how would that be done? And what kind of study would have to be done? 'Cause you're talking about all these animals that come out and look at all the animals. That probably won't be the case if you reintroduce some of those, they'll start thinning it out and it'll achieve a balance. - Yeah, it'll achieve a balance. - So they've done a ball-- It's just like keep people of date on Australia. Most people don't know that they've introduced cats. So house cats, you want some water? - Yeah, they're sitting there. They introduce house cats, like just feral house cats in Australia, to combat certain species. And they start decimating all the other species. - It's literally the worst. It's literally the number one mammalian extinction rate in Australia for cats. - And it's because it's an invasive species. Would that be a problem, that would be, would there be a similar problem if you reintroduce the Tasmanian tiger? Would there be, potentially would you have to reintroduce other species if they make them extinct? - So the good news about the Tasmanian in the Southern Australia ecosystems is they're mostly intact, right? Hopefully they'd eat the cats. If you talk to most people on Australia, they hate cats outside of the cats that they actually own. - Yeah. - They actually hate cats because what they're doing to small marsupials, they're actually looking at technologies like gene drives and others to get rid of, to fully eradicate cats that are wild non-domestic cats. - Yeah, people hunt them. - Like you have, I have a good buddy of mine, Adam Greentree, and they have this magazine. It's like a bow hunter magazine in Australia. And he gave me a copy of it. I was reading on a plane. This guy's holding up a dead cat, he shot with a bow and I'm like, hey, man, what the fuck? - Yeah, they hold them up like trophies. - Well, because it's a huge problem, right? It goes back to the invasive species. One of the projects that we're working on with the thiosync is we like to pair every D extinction with a species of reservation is, have you ever seen a Northern Kohl? - No, what is that? - Northern Kohl. It kind of looks like a manker, like a fairytale, but way prettier, it's amazing. - I just spelled it. - Q-U-O-L. - Yeah. I mean, they're absolutely beautiful. They're absolutely, I mean, they're very beautiful, but they're another type of carnivorous marsupial. But, you know, a hundred years ago or so, they got we as humanity introduced cane toads. Have you ever seen a cane toad? It's like the job of the hunt. - Oh, yeah. - Me and Luke's fucking evil, right? - They're monsters. - And so we introduced, we as humanity, introduced cane toads into Australia. And they have a neural toxin. Well, guess what? Most Kohl's and small marsupials love to eat. Frogs and toads. And so, this is actually, I think, about our work. This actually is about our work. And so, no, this may be, actually, I think this is part of our work. And what we've done is, if you go back to your point about co-evolving an evolution, if you go back to South America where cane toads evolved along snakes and mice and other, you know, small mammals, they cane toads all they have on. And they don't die of the neurotoxin. They don't completely like stroke out and die, which is what happens in Northern Australia. And so, the cane toads are, they reproduce in the insane rate. They're having like thousands of babies. They're making more and more of them. So, guess what? More and more, more and more Kohl's and others are eating these cane toads. And dying. So, what we did is we actually did a study where we understood what are the genes in the mammals and snakes, even, in South America that make them cane toads toxin resistant. And here's what we found. This is amazing. One letter in 3 1/2 billion base pairs. So, one letter, a one letter change, conferred had no other, you know, to serious, had no other effects that were negative. And it created a 5,000 times resistance to cane toads. - Wow. - So, because, you know, Kohl's are in danger, do we don't want to work in endangered species? First, you want to start with a more model species. We worked in the Fat Tell Dunard, which is our model species for the thylacine. And we engineered Dunards that, and Dunard cells and Dunards, that can eat cane toads tissues and have zero effect on them. Where it would typically kill them. And so, now we're in the next phase of trials, showing that we want to enter, we like to engineer in this one, add it into Kohl's, because if Kohl's would have, most likely, through this concept of conversion evolution, if you would have put the Kohl next to the cane toads, they would have Kohl evolved together. They probably would have had that resistance already built into them through nature. - Wow. - And so, that's showing the power of this concept of genetic engineering and biotech in conservation. And so, then you could like make these super Kohl's that eat the cane toads, and then, not only is that help the population, lower the population of cane toads, it has this, and help the population of the Kohl's, but also has a halo effect to all these other marsupials that we don't know how many are dying from eating cane toads. I hope you don't have to bring in big toads to eat the Kohl's. (laughing) - You've never seen a bad, is that like, have you seen those toads and frogs that like latch out and like they'll eat anything in front of them? - Yes. - Yeah, they're too. - There was a giant, there was a giant one of those toads back in, like, I don't know, thousands of years ago. - How big was it? - I don't know. I've seen a 3D render of it, and it like grabs like, you know, deer's and stuff, it's crazy. - Whoa. - Yeah. - We've played videos of toads eating mice. I had no idea. - Yeah. - Before I saw those videos, only a few years ago, I had no idea. Toads were just eating mice. - Yeah, it's crazy. - So they put them in this bin with a bunch of mice, and this toad is just going ham, just snatching mice up and swallowing. - And you think they're just sitting there, docile, and then they just, - Yeah. - Absolutely, they throw their whole body up. - Well, they sit there. They have the creepiest dead eyes. They're just machines to eat. - Yeah. - Have you seen them fight with each other? That's pretty wild, too. They bite each other's heads, and they throw each other through the air. - Yeah, I've seen them toss each other. - Imagine you're fighting with a dude, and he literally bites half your torso and throws you through the air, and they don't even look like a bother to them. - Yeah, that's just part of the fight. - Yeah. - That's totally within the rule. - That's what creeps me out about reptiles. There's this lack of emotions. Like at least a wolf has emotions. There's something going on there. There's an intelligence. There's something really creepy about getting eaten by something stupid. - Like a crocodile. - Yeah. - Like a crocodile or like a toad. - There was a thing about crocodiles that people were suspecting, but it turns out to not be true, that they would lie on their back and put their arms in the air to simulate drowning. - Yeah, I saw that video. - Apparently that's not what they're doing. Apparently that's a normal characteristic that they do. - But from a natural selection perspective, stupid people were like, "I have to save them." - Yeah, I gotta go save that dude. - And then we credit the crocodile for being super smart, but in reality it just got a free meal. - Yeah, well you would think though if they have gotten those meals before that that would be a learned behavior. I mean, just be honest. They do have some learned behavior. I have a friend, his name is Jim Shocky. He's a professional hunter and he was actually hired to go into Africa and hunt crocodiles that were killing all these people in this village. Like they're actively targeting people in this village. When he went to the village, everybody was like, "Missed a foot." At a chunk taken out of their leg. And while he was there, a crocodile took a woman who was washing clothes. So what they had done was, they'd set up this area by the water where they had driven these stakes in the ground that would prevent the crocodiles from getting in the water and getting really close to the edge. You know, because you can't see them in the water and then they just explode out and snatch you up. These fucking crocodiles went around the fence. They walked around the fence and slid into the water. So they figured out that these people are in this area that they can't get to. So they hunt people. - Yeah, they absolutely do. And it's weird how some of those, it's very strange as we start to study, 'cause like one of the things that Colossal's doing is we're studying a lot of what's called non-model species. So we're learning a lot about weird things that we just didn't know. There's some things that are known, like elephants get cancer, a fraction of what they should due to an over expression of a gene called P.C. So there's just think of petos paradox where, based on age and body weight, both blue whales and elephants get cancer, a fraction of what they probably should, based on how old they get and what their body size is. And they actually, that actually makes our lives very difficult and that's why we had to create stem cells for elephants. Because anytime we try to, we had to figure out how to regulate P53, because anytime you go to edit that one cell, it just says, looks like a mutation could be cancer, kill cell, right? It's like program it. So we had to be able to, we had to be able to turn that down, because we're in the editing phase on the math project, right? So there's about 85 genes. But if you turn that down, is that make the most susceptible to cancer? And so you got to turn it back up after you make the edits. So, yeah. So these are the things that you just, that we are learning about. I'm with that lady doctor, that lady scientist, you guys are doing something, shouldn't be doing. No, we're learning about things, right? We're learning about things, right? I'm kidding, but I'm not kidding. If it's work, I would probably have the same opinion. Yeah. Especially if I found out you guys weren't really scientists, like, what are you doing? Yeah. Why are you doing this? Well, I mean, the good news is about colossal is that, you know, outside of our 17 academic partners and our 95 scientific advisors, 90% of the company scientists, there's very few, like I, like I fall in the very few kind of kidding about you're not scientists, but I'm not, I'm not kidding about the technology getting in the someone else's hands. Yeah. And this is where it gets weird. Like China, Russia, some other, it is, it is getting weird. Like CRISPR and these genome engineering tools are outside of the, are, they're out of the, it's like the genie out of the bottle, right? It's like, if it's out there, you can't put it back in. I think that more and more people in other countries are going to be doing things with these two, these technologies for humans. That's why colossal just said, we will never do anything for humans. If someone else would use our technologies for humans, we'll evaluate it. But that gets so weird, right? Like the China story. They can't explain to people what they did. They said they were inoculating them from HIV, which is, yeah. And they actually were engineering, they were engineering babies in, in editing their embryos to confer our resistance to HIV. Now still to this day, so they, they were cloning them and then they were genetically modifying them. And so they're doing lots of things that are, there's a general moratorium in the world on some of these things around humans. Anything that's considered a germline edit. So anything that could be passed on to the next generation, right? So things, so if you, if you, if you engineer something, into the genome, the fear is, you know, from a germline. So any, all yourselves, and your body are somatic cells, except for your like, agrosperum, those are germ cells. So anything that could be affected into the germline, so that you pass it on to the next generation, that could be like, you know, umbrella corporation type of moment, right? So you don't want that. But the, the scary thing was they didn't just do that. They also edited something that would allow the child to have much higher intelligence. But also that parts, like, that, that parts quote under, under debate. There's people that say that happen. There's people that say it doesn't happen. If you look at BGI or Beijing, genomics institute, right? They did this thing that from an affairs perspective was brilliant. From an affairs perspective is also terrifying during COVID. They're like, we'll do all the COVID testing for you free. We'll do all this COVID testing for you free. You know worries, just send us your data. We'll do it off of free. You just want to help the world, right? We'll work with the world health organization. Send us all your samples from all your countries, everything. And publicly the CEO of BGI has said, which is funded by the CCP, has said that they would, that they are looking at genes with humans. They are looking at what makes humans more intelligent. They don't shy away from this. This is not like some, you know, conspiracy, like they're like, is it a Sasquatch or is it a man in a suit? This is something that is very real. They are openly saying we are sequencing as much as we can of the world population looking for genes for intelligence. And we will act on that. Like that's not hidden thing. So that is the problem. Supposedly did with these kids. Supposedly these kids know. I mean that would have, one of that happened to, yeah, so they've been like six or seven. Are they already winning chess championships? Yeah, so I'm not. We should find out what mask is. You're probably going to lab somewhere where the headset on. Yeah. I don't know how public it's like, it was also one of those weird things that was like, he's in trouble. He's going to jail. Yeah. And then he's like, and then he's out. Yeah. All is forgiven. Yeah. But meanwhile, if you go to jail in China, you fucking vanish. Forever. Yeah, except for this guy. He's making iPhones until you drop data starvation. Yeah, it is, it is, it's 100% true. Yeah. And so it is weird that like, he got in trouble for a few months. Right. And he got in trouble for something they probably told him to do in the first place. They funded his lab. His lab was, his lab was funded by the, and this is what we found out about. I guarantee you there's a shit that they're doing somewhere that we haven't found out about yet. And if you were going to do something with human beings and create a super soldier, you know, we know that, let's say, that's what Russia, that's what Russia was attempting to do during, was it World War I or World War II? They were trying to make a chimpanzee human hybrid for war. Oh, I saw that. I read about that. Yeah. A chimpanzee human hybrid for war. Well, there's been a recent publication out of Japan where they're allowing Japanese, or Japanese scientists to edit human cells in embryos with mammalian genes with other mammalian genes. Like what kind of genes? Like, will a man have a gene? No person. No, we're not doing that. People ask us if we could solve ball hair loss with willy mammoths. That would be the first thing people want. Hair loss next thing, bigger decks. Those are consistent questions. We can't engineer once a person's already born, right? With the current technology. So being able to send stuff to gene therapies and targeting it, being able to deliver specifically to cells is an area that we're getting better at. Like I think one of the probably the most, I think that one of the projects that's deferred this along is around like sickle cell anemia. It's a single CRISPR knockout, right? With a single knockout, it's not multiplex editing. And now it's about can you target that in all of the tissue types that are the most affected? And then over time, how do you deliver that gene therapy to everything? And you could do that to a person who's already born? To someone that's already born. It's obviously much easier to do it at the embryo stage. Could you have vision a world where the gene editing technology becomes so powerful that you could do it to a person who is already fully formed? Yes. Whoa. Yeah. So. This is what I predicted. It's going to be much of Chris Hemsworth and Jason Mamoa's and no more people look like you and me. Yeah. Wait. So Chris is one of our investors and I always think we look just like each other. Oh, yeah. So he invited me to go to a virus from another planet. I think he had different species. Yeah. They invited me to go to Byron Bay and go surfing with them. And I was like, yeah, I'm going to go take my shirt off next to you nerds. That's exactly what's never going to happen. And I just made it an excuse of why I couldn't go because they're like, who want to go surfing? And I was like, uh, yeah. Yeah. Sure you do. You want to, yeah, I'm not going surfing with you too. Measure Cox too. Yeah. I'm going as far away from you with my shirt off as possible. But you got to imagine if that becomes a reality. Like what we're doing today just with plastic surgery. Yeah. Right? Like let's take South Korea for example. Yeah. GLP ones. But that's achievable. Right. What they're with GLP ones are doing is achievable through hard work. Yeah. But like what they're doing in South Korea with eye surgery. Like it's ubiquitous. Like so many people are getting this weird surgery where they have these K-pop eyes. Yeah. You know, it's just strange thing. It's a strange thing. And if that's just primitive cutting and sewing tissue artistically, right? But if people can decide what they're going to look like, what their intelligence is going to be like, it's a eugenics work. Now we're really playing. No, no, no, no. That's playing got to another level, right? And that's like this eugenics world where we know, right? Like, I just had a child and you know, typically, I'd say if you go through the IVF process which we went through, you typically can test for certain types of issues like along the pregnancy, right? And when they put the embryo in, they look at kind of the morphological grade. Well, now there's new tests, new companies out there, one of which I use, which after I used it, so I'm press I invested in it called Orchid Health. And they actually take cells from the developing neuro on the very outer term, right? On this thing that doesn't affect the embryo development, they culture those cells and then they're doing full genome sequencing, right? And so we had a handful of embryos and so not selecting, they don't let you just select for like eye color or height or anything. But outside of the kind of the core, you know, is there a mental issue or is it compatible with life, which is what most people test for? You can now, you know, ethically and transparently go figure out, does it have any predispositions to certain things, right? So like, you know, if diabetes or cancer, certain types of cancers or Alzheimer's, or your family, you can now get a lot of that's environmental, but you can still get a distribution score to it so you can understand what are the genetic factors in that. So that's today. So that's not like 20 years in the future, that's not Gatica, that's today. Wow. And I mean, we did that. Because I have a, I've found out during that sick period that I have a gene mutation which affects the Titan gene and I created a truncated protein. So I have, I am more susceptible to diseases, including the first true round of COVID that was a lab leak that in that attacked my heart. Wow. And so I didn't want to be able to pass that on. So we screened for that, right? But that's not a standard thing. So, but that's a today thing. Like, like, you know, two years ago, that technology existed and is now prevalent and people are using it. So you understand the technology better than most conceivably. What could be done? that would in the future allow people to change their very shape and literally like change everything about them change their intelligence change everything I think it starts with You know neuroenhancers and I think and this is the biological perspective This is not even the you know computer brain interfaces merging with AI that that whole world, which I think that world has a lot of traction And is scare leaving a lot of charge pretty quickly But I think it starts with things like a health span where it's like the the very vein stuff so like You know skin skin elasticity hair All of that eye color. I think all of that is changeable and and not and like there's a company right now I've read the name of it that spun out of Harvard that is making a patch it using micro-needling Patches that you can even feel the needles right and delivering a custom stem cell for you that can help like Replace your melanocytes for hair and for skin And so so you can have 30 year old looking skin when you're 85 years old what yes So in the same thing for hair right the reason why our hair that's gonna be real soon. Yes, I mean That's the speed of which that the big I think the biggest I think the two biggest barriers for healthcare Aron genetics in longevity is gonna be the FDA process and not the not the technology I think it'll be a process problem. We saw that with operation warp drive right we we saw how fast things could move if people really wanted them to So I think that's number one and I think that you're gonna have the ethical pushbacks on this so regulatory and ethical Those are the two hurdles for right now the technology exists. Yeah Well the other biggest thing and this is kind of on for the folks that are deep in longevity Their biggest they'll tell you the biggest issue with longevity is that it's not currently classified as a disease state Right, it's just it's so they're not getting in a H funding. They're getting all that funding's one other random stuff You know, but people aren't focusing on longevity. That's why you've got like you've seen anything that like Bob Nelson's done Bob started Arch Ventures and he's like arguably the number one biotech in the world and he's working on Epigenetic resets are resetting your clocks at a cellular level. That's what Jeff Bezos and them have they're doing it all those labs George churches another company called Rejuvenate Bio They're doing the same things and they're smart. They did it in dogs first because people love dogs And they can also collect a lot of data that they can then apply to clinical trials Yeah, I know there's a lot of people cloning their dogs. Yeah, there's people that are cloning their dogs They could do it even easier now with it with this. Yeah, I didn't bring Marshall to the studio We did we did clone one person's dog. I couldn't do it. I love him too much. I Couldn't do it. I would I would feel so weird around this fake Marshall. Yeah, I wouldn't want to do that. Yeah Yeah, and that's how people feel about some dogs are unique little creatures. They're their own little personalities I know I've got two and they're amazing and you know I did my wife is closer to one and so I did I did full disclosure I did I did we did do a blood sample on that one Just a case I just don't know what the meltdown could look like So but but but the other one we haven't and so because you're right that you have you have Environmental factors you have personalities you we don't understand all of that right, but I won't say who it is But someone that's very well known in the world when I was showing him some of our dire wolf and red wolf tech his kids were Devastated because his dog was dying and they didn't want it They didn't want to put her in any harm They didn't want to go on the dog cloning companies and do like earp They want to put it to sleep. They didn't think she'd wake back up So we did a drug a blood draw. He called me over Christmas Or before Christmas last year and told me that you know that they think the dogs got weeks days to weeks live Could we could we do it for and we and we did and we did for him We're not in that business. That's not our business But he was just happy because his choice wasn't he didn't want this other dog or so He didn't want another dog his biggest issue was they want they they couldn't let go of that dog number one And number two, but they didn't want that dog suffer They didn't want it to say for our selfish means Right, you're already suffering. We want you to go be put to sleep and have pieces taken like Frankenstein pieces of you And so the fact that we could just take a blood draw the dog didn't even notice we took the blood draws like totally awake Just sitting right there. Oh, he did it and you know, he was happy with that So I think the these dead dog is gonna be reincarnated into a higher level of existence You stop it and put it on this like yeah, so that's not exactly our business You know what I'm saying? I do I do I do I do I don't really exactly know what Life is no we don't we definitely don't know life and here's one things that his his assistant told My chief of staff he said to her he's like you know, it's weird. I didn't think it's the same dog at all And I it's definitely not the same dog He's like he goes and sits in the same place, which isn't like it's not like in front of a window on its bed, right? I don't know the exact place, but it always goes sitting the exact same place the other dog said so there's weird stuff We don't understand that that would creep me out creep me out because Marshall has very specific places where he sleeps and if that happens Yeah, it creep me out. Yeah, so I've had other other dogs stay at my house and my older daughters dog stay at my house And that dog didn't go to that same spot. It's not like this is my spot. That's warmer or cooler. Yeah Like it's the same thing. It's like my dog can he if he like Gets on like he only wants to sleep on my feet if I fall asleep in the couch. He's cool He won't sleep on my feet. He just wants to sleep on me and that's not comfortable for him So I'm like kicking him and everything, but that's just where you want to sleep. They wanted to be in contact with you My dog watches TV with me. Yeah, it's awesome. Yeah Yeah, I taught I read the best yeah, and we didn't even teach it this but but when we say security at our house our Our dog just lose it like can't just loses mind. He just Just runs the door he runs the front door runs the back door for the side doors. Yeah, so what kind of dog? They're just muts so I have barbie and Ken. They're just two little weird muts But we named them before the movie. It's just a weird thing to take that dog and I think also for kids like the thing is like kids The loss is so devastating. Yeah But it's also good to teach the nice things. Yeah, I think loss is important. Yeah, I think loss is important I don't know I only I'm new to this whole father thing But you know, I think it's important that they understand that there's real there's real things and there's consequences to decisions And we're gonna age and we've got a limited time. I think that in his lifetime will be massively accelerated But I think that's important and you know that is one of the things though. I think having a kid You know and also all of these kids and parents that have been sending us pictures of mammoths and dialocines and dodo's and hopefully now diarwolves Is something that's exciting because we get these handwritten notes from kids, right? So like on our shittiest day at colossal when someone says whatever or or whatever And we get or an experiment doesn't work or or whatever bad happens And you look at this pile of kids photos and teachers like we have this this there's a teacher named Katie from Florida Who sent us a letter and and literally like like 40 pictures of mammoths and in that letter she goes My kids won't be quiet. We're in this like a tension war with everything my kids won't be quiet I start talking about colossal. I showed the woolly massive. They all want to just talk about it. They just zone in right because it's interesting It's interesting and in kids and so I think this is a time that we can use technologies for human health care for good We can use technologies for conservation for good and we can help ecosystem with bringing back existing species But I think that we can also like inspire the next generation like don't we want to preach hope we're on this 24/7 Psycho news cycle, right? Like that wasn't around when I was a kid or nice CS Lewis first started talking about this like what what year was CS Lewis alive But he had a quote about I might have saved it. He had a quote about the Just getting all the dire information of the world all the time sent to you all the time which at his time back then That was very new. That was a completely new thing In this idea of these 24 hour new cycles, right? You know like there's actually a law in the UK You'll this is this blew my mind. There's a law in the UK that they cannot tell they cannot report on a piece If it has any degree of social impact that they don't tell the negative side I was like so what happens is like you so if there's someone say there's a kitten from a tree you have to get a dog's perspective Like it's like and they're like yes, and they're dead serious. Oh, that's over there So it's like as like there can be stories that are just negative and there can be stories that are just positive That's okay. Yeah, I think you're gonna have very lively debate That's always going to happen with something that's so groundbreaking what you're doing But I also think it's inevitable. I think human beings have this Inescapable desire for innovation right and it's going to apply to biology Just like it applies to electronics and you can't do anything about it You can have debates about it and we should we should have caught you should you know what you guys are doing is great You've got the dire wolves fenced off and you're very careful you're monitoring them. It's so great It's gonna happen. It's gonna happen and at least you're transparent about it. Yeah Like at least this is not happening in Russia where they're making super wolves that only eat Americans Yeah, and they train they train them with DNA. It only eat them. Yeah, but that's probably gonna happen too This is just we're going to face unique problems no matter what we do because technologies allowing people to do things That are unprecedented including change what it means to be an actual person. Yeah, it's a synthetic biology And really kind of the intersection between compute AI and Synthetic biology being able to engineer genes engineer life I think that we were at the doorstep of you know, everyone's very very worried about AI But I do think that synthetic biology is in that camp. I think it's yes. It's like discovering fire It's the god camp. Yeah, it's all it's all falling into the same thing And then when you add to that incredible computing power that's going to be available with quantum computing. Yeah And then you have new technologies that are gonna merge from AI using quantum computer like it's called. And then the interface is all like the rolling stuff and everything. It's just gonna get, you know, we interfaces are crazy. Because we had that gentleman Noah, the first guy who got it, and he said he has an aim bot in his head. So like when he plays games, he's like got a crazy advantage. Because where he looks is where the cursor goes. Like instantaneously, so he could shoot things like he's not gonna miss. Yeah. I mean, we are living in a weird time. But it's the weirdest time. It's the weirdest time that people have ever been through. And we're at the door. We haven't even gone into that. No, no, that's why I say like wild. That's what I say about synthetic biology, right? So like, yeah, the ability to like engineer a drop-resistant crops or a vaccine or grow our hair or, you know, make mammoths, that's today. We can't even think about what's tomorrow. We spun out a company from a colossal called Breaking last year. And this incredible group at the Vee Institute discovered an enzyme from the Amazon that actually breaks down any type of plastic you give it to. And not making smaller plastics, not making microplastics, which are fucking terrible. But actually breaks the chemical, that's why I needed it breaking. It actually breaks the chemical bonds of plastic and just produces biomass as a thing. Well, guess what? You know, so it takes things that have broken down never and has got it down into years. We have used now computational biology and synthetic biology to engineer it. So now that it's in, you know, 22 months. And I think that we can get it down to two weeks. And so that will be huge for the plastic problem because we can all say that we're going to change hearts and minds and use different types of plastics. But we still have the existing plastics here. We have to do something about it. So I do think there's even industrial use cases coming out of synthetic biology that like 10 years ago, someone said we give you a magic, a magic microbe that can, you can put in a vat and you can just throw any of your plastics in there and you can through, you know, salads and other stuff there and it won't even touch it. You know, that would have sounded like science fiction. 10 years ago. That's so crazy. And so now you said it's down to a couple of months. Yeah, it's 22 months right now. So, and we're talking about like not just like your water bottle, your water bottle, but you're also talking about things that are like industrial, defense plastics that are like, you know, radiation hardened and whatnot for space. Like we're throwing some pretty hard stuff. What about those stupid fucking windmills that they have to change every few years? Oh, they actually have a big, or for windmills. And they also have a bigger negative carbon impact than they make. And they don't barely make any electricity. Yeah, they kill livestock or they kill animals, kill birds. They disrupt, they also disrupt migratory patterns of birds. Of course they do. Yeah, you can't fly into that. And they're all made with plastic and plastic polymers. And then they have to give rid of them. And then the only place to put them is in a landfill. Yeah, exactly. So, break, so that's why we started breaking. So, wow, so these microbes would be able to break that down? Yeah, I mean, we even tested on that specific, but like one of the biggest ones that we tested on was nylon, just because there's so much, if you look at like what's in the ocean, a vast majority of it is nylon from just discarded fishing nets. Oh, that makes sense. So we looked at nylon as one of our first use cases. And then we're doing water treatment plants and a few others. So if we get the point that we could do filtration on microplastics at the treatment level, right? Because all that's passing through right now, like in our drinking water and everything. That's why you have to have these massive, you have to have like the three layer osmosis devices and whatnot for water. You've got to do, Gary, you got me in the water machine. So, but you have to do those types of things because the microplastics and then the chlorine and other stuff still passes through a lot of the existing materials. So when you're doing this, is this something that you could release like in the ocean itself or would you have to worry then about the effect like bringing the house cats to Australia? No, it dies. It only eats this like this. This is what they always say, right, before it fucks up. We're not worried about that. But with, but with the distribution in the wild of something like that, you have to go through EPA. There's a lot of testing that you have to do, right? But you could do that testing and then conceivably dump it on the great Pacific garbage patch. So I don't know based on heat and salinity and whatnot. Right now it's working in bio-reactor. So I don't want to over-promise and say we just go sprinkling throughout the day. But that's the long-term goal. Wow. But that's the power of, you know, we used AI and computational analysis of this microbe that's found in nature. And then we said, let's supercharge it, just like supercharging the coils, right? And so, but that's, but the process of using it outside of contained systems like a bioreactor has to be done very thoughtfully and measured just like rewilding, right? Like this is where some of us who get confused about like the yelts and stuff. They didn't just open the gate and throw some wolves in there. I mean, it sounds like they didn't more of that in Colorado. But there's typically a very thoughtful and measured process that you have to go through, right? Because there's intended consequences, which you get excited about. But then there's a shit ton of unintended consequences if you're not careful. Yeah. What synthetic biology is that is that it's an AI level thing that we need to be worried about. And how many different nations are working on this stuff? So I think that the US is by far the most advanced from synthetic biology perspective. It is a major directive of China, not just sequencing and bio-banking, because they're bio-banking. We do not have a nationalized bio-banking process here. That's one of the things I was met in, meaning in Washington about. But China does. China is going, like we see them in Africa where they'll make donations to a university or school and say, oh, but we're going to take blood samples from all of your animals around here. You guys are cool, right? So they are doing this, right? So they're looking for insights in animals. They're looking for that data. They're also trying to build like today's Noah's art. So China is for sure. There's some countries that's harder. The European Union's harder to do anything, because they've kind of put a moratorium on GMOs or genetically modified organisms. But we've been making GMOs for a long time. Like you've ever seen a pug. We've just done it pretty inefficiently, right? We can be smarter and actually have a better understanding of those intended consequences, now through AI and software. Bro, people are going to have dire wolves guarding their house. Yeah. In 100 years? They're not open to the whole world. 100%. They're going to get your technology. They're going to sell it. And people are going to be eating woolly mammoth steaks while the dire wolves guard their house. Yeah, that's not the future that I hope for. I'm more of an optimist. So I kind of believe in the general good of humanity. Of course, it's your company. Your company is fucking the whole world up. You have to think that way. I'm just kidding. But it is a weird venture. I mean, you're going down a very bizarre path, but it's so fascinating. I'm so glad you're doing it, because it's so interesting. And we're learning a lot, right? And the application of that learning could allow us to save many species, right? Yeah. And I think that-- Do you think there could ever be a time? Well, there's no DNA from the dinosaurs, right? So would it be possible that with future technology, there would be some way to get around that? So the closest you could get from a dyno DNA perspective is that there is ways that you can do demeneralization of bones and get amino acids. So the smallest building blocks possible, you don't know where they go, right? I think that it's not possible to de-extinct to dinosaur. I do think at some point you could use AI and software to do an ancestral state reconstruction, looking at what we know about birds, what we know about reptiles, and where they branch. So you could make one. I think you could-- Wasn't that one of the things they did in Jurassic Park? That's what they did in dinosaur that didn't exist before the big giant one. The abdominis raxia. Right. That was something they created. That's something they created, right? And so I think from a genome engineer-- from a technology and genome engineering perspective, that is eventually possible. So they could easily make a T-Rex without-- I would say-- I would say easily, yeah, but-- But they could-- It's potentially-- Potential-- It's some future state. I think we'll have the CAD software biology where you can engineer almost anything. Oh my god. I mean, that's just where the technologies go, the better. And you said it best when you brought up quantum. Quantum's only two years away every two years I hear. But eventually, when it works, it works at scale. And you have that coupled with where some of these companies, like x.ai and others are taking it. I think the merger of that plus synthetic biology will allow us to do all kinds of stuff. And it will be in nefarious hands. Let's just be real. Nuclear weapons are in nefarious hands, right? Yeah. Nuclear weapons are in good guys' hands, right? And so this is nuclear weapons. And I think that you have to be-- just because it exists, we can't put our head in the sand and say, oh, we just can't let it be because it does exist. And I don't know if you saw this, but this was like-- It's like five years-- no, no, no, no. That was like seven years ago. People in China-- companies in China and the government in China were using facial recognition technology to profile people of a certain subset of race. And they were doing bad things with facial wreck. Well, the San Francisco government, where a lot of the funding came from Silicon Valley for a lot of tech startups, they said not at a nationwide level, but in Silicon Valley, San Francisco says, we will not at all support any technology. We're going to ban investing in facial wreck technology. Well, that's just dumb, right? Because we now know there's things like deep fakes and all this stuff. But it's like, that's setting American innovation back because someone's doing something bad with it, right? That's like saying, oh, my gosh, they have guns. We should never develop guns, right? It's a bad philosophy when it comes to technology. And so I think the same way about synthetic biology, the world is currently the United States is the leader in synthetic biology. And we've got national treasurers, like George Church, my co-founder and others. And I hope that we continue to be the world's leader. But I do think other countries have different ethical boundaries than we do, and they will experiment on kids. But it's interesting also that you're a company. This isn't the government. This is just a group of people and investors that have decided to do this. And you've been able to do it here in America, but do you know what is going on in other countries or is this a tightly guarded secret? - Obviously, you have people, I'm sorry to interrupt. - No, no, no, go for it. - In your company as well. And I'm sure there's an understanding of what they're doing. So it's good, you must be being studied in other countries. - Yeah, we definitely, and we have investment by Incutel, right? So I'm sure that makes us more of a target. - So, yeah. So I mean, we do work closely with the DOD and IC. - We're going to. - When you think about it a hundred years from now, a thousand years from now, when you scale us out, there's no limit to what could be done with life. That's so strange. It's so strange to think that for four plus billion years, life has evolved in a very specific pattern. - On rails. - Yeah. - Yeah. - And then one day. - And now we say we can take the railway everyone. - Who, boy, and you know, that's the grandest of all conspiracy theories is that's how humans were created. - Yeah, that we were in here. - That the pants for me, yeah. - Well, either pants for me or that we were engineered in places where-- - The right one is the Anunnaki, right? - Oh yeah. - Samaritan. - I will say that if you look at, you know, not to get too weird, but if you do look at the, it's like Kuku Kahn and folks and if you look at some of the carvings from all over the world, resembling their sky gods, there's a lot of weird similar. I mean, you can't objectively, it's like the guy with the pair with the, with the Sphinx, right? It was like, yep, that's water. I'm an expert on erosion. That is water. And then they're like, head of the Sphinx, like that's not water, right? It's the same thing as this. You cannot look at some of the stuff and say, that's not weird, right? You can't look at like, you know, the incredible pyramids we have all over the world that seem to now, there's like more and more discoveries and then they get silent instead of you. It's like, you can't see all that stuff and not wonder more, especially the stuff around. If you look at myons and then you look at, you know, stuff in the Middle East and how it looks exactly the same. - It's very weird. - It looks exactly the same. Have you been to Peru? - No. - So that, I would put, you know, because I, - My teacher? - I do not want to take you away from going and visiting the Boney Arts, so you totally do that. But you should also go to Peru. Peru, if you, like you can see Peru and you can see, it's like standing in the Grand Canyon versus seeing on Google Maps, right? If you go to like, Allentom, Allian, Tombow, whatever it's called and you see these blocks that you can't like put a piece of paper between, you know, you can't see it and you see it and they're all put together in a perfect jigsaw. Oh, and by the way, they came from a type of rock in a corridor that's 2000 miles from here, whatever, how many thousands of miles from here. You can't sit there and say, "Well, that's weird." If you don't say that's weird, then it's like, you're like one of those, like, you know, people that are just like, "Huh, you're a denyer." - You're a denyer. - You can't say it's not weird. - Yeah, does, does not say, does it say it's not weird is actually denying science. - Yeah, it's the weird, so you should put Peru on your, 'cause when you see it, there's nothing like it. I mean, I've been fortunate in middle of travel over the world. You see it and you're just like that, that just doesn't make sense. - The coolest thing I've ever seen is chichen pizza. - Yeah, I've been chichen pizza. And you go there and you're like, what did you do? - Yeah, what did you do? How'd you do this? - Yeah, how'd you guys do this? - You know, it's crazy about chichen pizza. They don't let you go there anymore. But I don't know where, but you know, you've got all those paths with all the vendors and you see chichen pizza. Well, there's, in the jungles there, on the ocatán peninsula, there's actually other older pyramids. But the carvings that they have on chichen pizza and the carvings they have there, they're actually the older ones have more precise carvings. But now, guess what? It's not open to public. I've seen that, I've been there. - So frustrating. - But it's such a weird world, right? - Yeah. - Yeah, I mean, I'm talking to you about hardcore genetic science. But then when you start to look at all of the craziness in the archaeology, it is, we don't know a lot. - A lot. - And there's no way you can know a lot. - And anytime you suggest something new, you get, you know, shit for it. - Yeah, you get a rash of shit and people try to connect to you with the worst people in the world, hence Graham Hancock. - Yeah, but I think Graham Hancock in the end, I don't know if there are, you know, kind of this advanced civilization or whatnot. But I think really smart people said things like Plato and others that were probably real. - Yeah. - I don't think they were just like playing around and like, oh, we're gonna write something that's gonna be in history as a joke forever. - You've seen the right-sharge structure? - Uh-uh. - You ever seen that? - Uh-uh. - This is what, there's a lot of people like Jimmy Corsetti who's this famous YouTube. I guess you'd call him, I guess he'd be like an ancient, ancient, he'd be like an ancient history enthusiast. He's a guy who's like studies these things and does YouTube videos on them. But the right-sharge structure is essentially Atlantis. - Oh, this is in the desert. - Yeah. - It looks like Atlantis or salt all around it. It has the rings that Plato described. - And at one point in time, it was connected to the ocean. I mean, it literally looks like Atlantis and people disputed, a lot of people-- - Have people gone and studied it there? - I guess. - Well, it's a very difficult place to get to and it's also very dangerous. So people have studied it, but there hasn't been like large-scale archeological digs there. Or, and the whole Sub-Saharan Africa thing is so fascinating. They find whales there. You know, I mean, they know that it was lush rainforests while human beings were alive. And there hasn't been like large-scale exploration of what's in that ground. - And it's immense. - I do think that the younger dry stuff is also a combination of, I think, generally speaking, if you break down the younger dryest period into that rapid cooling, I think the vast majority of people say some of it, some of the destruction or some of the destruction around megafauna was anthropologic, which I'll give it some percentage. Then I think a lot of people agree on this flood theory and anthropologic meaning-- - And anthropologic meaning of human beings killed. - Yes, humans had some impact on it, right? I think that even more people agree that there was this massive flood that occurred and that could have been a global level flood with sea rising, with rushing waters and sea rising, what not. And then you've got, you know, what caused that flood, most likely, the meteorological. - And then they combine that with course samples, it showed large levels of erudium. - Yeah, which only exists when you have certain levels of heat, at certain, at impact. It's like that nuclear glass or whatever you find this. - No, that's erudium is actually different. Erudium is actually very common in space, but-- - Oh, yeah, yeah. - And there's a layer. - Yeah, there's a layer. - Right, the microdiamonds, as we're talking about. - But they have those too as well. - Trinidad tight, yeah. - Yeah, trinidad tight, that's what it's called. - Yeah, that's what it says. - Yeah, from the trinity explosion, they discovered it there. - Yeah, they find these little microgl-- There's 100% there was impacts. That's a fact. And they also know like when the meteor shower, and this is a thing that they study, like when we go through this comet shower. And that that's-- - But you remember like, probably 10, 20 years ago, people, if you brought up the idea of a worldwide flood, they would just be like, "Oh, you're a fundamentalists Christian, can't talk to you ever again." - Exactly. - Right, water can't be your weird, don't talk to me again. - I know, so-- - And now it's like, well maybe there was a giant flood. Maybe it wasn't just a regional flood, right? Maybe it was done by impacts of comets, right? - That's what brings me to the weird ones when you go back to like the Vedic texts. And you're like, "What was the Veymonas? What were these flying vehicles that they had?" - What was a Zekiel talking about the Bible? - Have you seen that stuff when, have you seen those videos in the last, that have come out in the last year when there was the most recent UAP craze, and they'd show it and it looked like crazy ball lightning. It almost looked like those things that used to put your hands on your hands, on your hands, right? - Right, right. And then they compare some of those to paintings from like 500, 700 million years ago. - Let me stop you there, because a lot of those crazy balls of light. - We're all fake. - No, you can just zoom in on Venus. And that's what you get. - Cool. - You zoom in on stars, and you get this sort of bizarre, distorted image. Have you seen those? - Got find zoomed in stars. I think they did it with the North Star, they've done it with several stars. But if you zoom in with the highest level of these telephoto lenses from Earth, you can get that sort of distorted weird of so. - But so. - 'Cause you're looking through the, I've always seen the stuff on the internet until I was in Wellington, New Zealand, when I was with Peter. Peter, his house in Wellington's like on a body of water, once I wear, and we were talking, and of course, like the conversation went to ghost and UFOs, 'cause like, - Oh, you've seen them. - Why not? - No, I haven't seen them in person. I've seen them on his iPhone. This wasn't like, telescopic lens. This is an iPhone, and it looks exactly like what you see, I guess, on the zoom ends. - And that's the thing about zooming in. See, the thing is, like these are planets that people have zoomed in on. But there's weirder ones where, like there's video of it, and so it looks like it's moving. Yeah, here we go. Like, look at that. - I'll have to see. - But you see what I'm saying? - Yeah, like this is a perfect example. So this is the star in the night sky with a Nikon P900. So is that 900X, Jamie? - No. - What is that? - That's the model number. - Can you talk in the mic? - It's just the model number. I have no idea what that means. - So what would you think that the amount of, - I don't know, 10,000X, I have no idea. - Okay, so, but do you see how, they're having a hard time zooming in on it? - Because it's a handheld, I think. But look how weird it is. - Looks so weird. - It's how it's moving around. Like you say, "I'm a guy. found a UFO. But it's not. It's just a star. Well, I do hate that every UFO video is blurry. Well, you know, I mean, that could be if you want to get into the whole how put off perspective, who's just brilliant physicist. Yeah, he's on a lot of papers. Yeah, he explained it to me. He thinks there's some sort of gravity distortion that's around us. So this is that this is that particular camera. So this is is this not a very, um, no, it's like a hand. So that's a 700, seven hundred and forty nine dollar camera on Amazon. So I'll see if Peter will give me that his I'm sure it would and I'll send to you because it's just weird to see. Oh, they're weird. No, I'm not saying this is like not zoomed in his wife's. Yeah, I am not denied that people are seeing things. But I've never seen that they're real. What I'm saying is that kind of evidence of that, that star. Yeah, if you didn't know any better and send to you, oh my god, he's out of UFO. He'd be like, holy fucking shit. It's real. Look at that. It's undeniable. Look at the energy around it. Yeah, with how put off believes is that there's some sort of distortion around these things. Yeah, that's allowing them to be transmitting them to go through the ocean. That's all the, uh, yeah, that's that's all they're like zero point energy and right in moving and, uh, in gravitational wave type stuff. Do you go deep on this? I get I get a little worried. I get a little worried because there's no real resolution. Yeah, yeah, you could lose your mind. But I had dinner with a Jacques Vellet and how put off once in a couple of the gentlemen and they were explaining the state of the technology, like what they think is currently available and what they think these things are using. I did these guys. I did a call with I did a call with how I got into that crowd for a while. Um, and before I started colossal and, uh, you know, I knew a bunch of, um, those folks. So I talked to Lou. I talked to how I did it as soon with how are you imagine what we are now where we are, what you're describing in terms of technology that's emerging right now. And we have dare wolves today in 2025. Yes. And now imagine this 5,000 years advanced. And you're probably looking at that. If we are being visited, that's what you're probably looking at. Yeah, it's not, and if you look at the exponential rate of our technology curve, it's, it's not that far now. Imagine the monkey that you guys have done with dire wolves. Oh, it's a little monkey. The selective precision genome engineering amazing stuff you've done with dire wolves. I'm just being silly. But imagine doing that to primitive hominids. Now if you were an insanely advanced species from another dimension or the planet, whatever it is, and you're a million years more advanced than human beings, and you come down here and you see Australia, Pithicus, you know, trying to figure out how to make a spear. Yeah. And you say listen, let's put a little bit of this. Yeah, I got a little bit of that. I told you a little bit of poison there. Yeah, one at it makes 5,000, you know, can, can first 5,000 resistance to neurotoxin. So it's like a couple of little edits here. It does a lot. And then there's the other theory that what we're looking at is human beings from the future. And if you think about what's happening to human beings, we're becoming less and less stout and muscular and we're becoming more and more, less and less reliant on muscle. Yeah. And our heads are getting bigger. Yeah. That's them. Yeah. I mean, I read that theory too. It's a bizarre archetype. Right. It's a very strange thing that people keep seeing over and over and over again. It's very weird that there's a bunch of different versions of life that they allegedly see. No, I go down those rabbit holes because I mean, I just think once again, going back to like this stuff, like cuckoo con and on a knocky and all like this, all the stuff. They're just stuff the most interesting. It's just so strange. And how you have certain things that are aligned to celestial, they're like, yeah, but they get to pick a lot of constellations. Why did they all pick the Pleiades or whatever it is? Right. Why did they do that? And also, how did the fucking ancient Sumerians have a detailed map of the solar system? Insanely detailed. From 6,000 years ago. Yeah. How? Yeah. And also be able to predict well enough of where it was going, knowing that we were moving through space. Yeah. And also have these giant things with little monkey people on their laps. Yeah. Like what are you saying? Yeah. There's weird. They're the cool thing about this. But think take a step back. Even though a lot of times people like Graham and Cock and others are ridiculed about it. Like and we get ridiculed even for the actual signs that that we're doing improving every day. At the end of the day, it is still cool. And it's interesting. Like I want I don't want to live in a society or a universe where everything's figured out every day. Yes. Is amazing. And we're figuring out amazing things. Well, unlike you, I don't have the burden of being taken seriously. And that's great for discussing with day. Oh, but you can go to school. But that's awesome. It is great. It's super interesting. But I think that's why so many people subscribe to your podcasts is because one minute you'll talk to a comedian and you have seen fire in the next time you're talking to someone that knows more about like the ancient flood than anyone in the world. And that's cool. It is cool. Yeah. It's very fascinating. And we should have conversations. Yes. And the world is filled with so many fascinating things that are all happening at the same time. Yeah. And it's almost I mean, and you can get lost. Like we're talking about with the CS Lewis quote. Did you ever find that? Yeah. I don't know. I kind of. He talked about getting the news. What year was CS Lewis alive? 1898. Yeah. I started tracking down like there's a bunch of misquoted CS Lewis quotes. It could be one of those. But we're being inundated by the worst news of the day because that's the news that's going to ensure that you watch it. And there's so many cool things that are happening at the same time. And I think it gives people a distorted perception of the hope that we have for mankind. You hear about wars like oh my god. But most people aren't going to war. Most people are cool with each other. Most interactions between human beings are positive and they're fascinating. And human beings are a fascinating creature. And we're so lucky to be alive at this time where the innovation is reaching this bizarre tipping point where we're you know, I mean, I love it. I mean, I'm working more hours than I've ever worked my life. And I've been fortunate before this business. And I will just tell you I just love it. Every day I wake up. It's awesome. It's just so cool. It's the coolest thing in the world. Well, I'm glad you're doing it, man. I really appreciate you. And thank you so much for coming in here and showing people the airwolds and the red walls. And I hope more. We'll keep you pleased to date on fun stuff. I want to go see him. I want to see him. All right. We'll talk off. Okay. We'll talk off. Thank you very much. Oh, if people want to find more information, find more about you. It's just it were colossal dot com or colossal time and we're it is colossal on YouTube and X and we're at colossal next. So fucking cool. Seeing that CGI one walking through the snow. Yeah. I can't wait to see that one day. Yeah. It's cool. It's cool. And I mean, look, the cool thing about colossals is we have so many people that you know, we have 170 people over 135 scientists. Just that wake up and they work 24 seven like we've got four labs. People are just, you know, in love with it. That's go. It's amazing. Thank you very much. You got to go see the lab. I will. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Bye.