227 - Why Modern Therapy Fails Men and What to Do About It with Chris Hemmings

We hear a lot of perspectives on the Mankind Podcast. Inclusion of a guest is not an endorsement of their views. And the opinions expressed here do not always represent the mission or values of the Mankind Project USA. Before we get started and as to be expected from our friends across the pond down in England, there are going to be some "crass" words and language that come out. Let's call them "spirited", so if you have little ones listening in the background, keep that in mind. Good day and welcome to another Life Recording of the Mankind Podcast. The show where we break the moulds of modern manhood to prove there is in fact more than one way to be a man. As I finally say, we are trying to simplify manhood for all of you listening out there. Boy, some would argue that and say that in many ways we're complicating it. All that to say, you hold the pen, my friends, you are writing what it means for you to show up as the man, as the father, as the husband, as the son, as the citizen that you want to be in your life. And one of the best ways we do that is by bringing inspirational guests like Chris Hemings onto the show. Chris, welcome back. Third time. Yeah, third time. Is it privilege to be a third time? We need to do like a jacket like SNL, like five-time host as club or something. Yeah. A five-time returning guest. You got a sweat bun for it really. A sweat band. There you go. There you go. I love it. I love it. Well, for those of you who haven't heard of Chris Hemings and his work, he is first introduced on the show, episode 51, talking about his book, which was a really great episode. I encourage you to want to check it out. And before I talk about your next appearance, a lot has happened in between each of these conversations. So just to frame it, that first episode, you released your book. So remind us the title and the work you were doing with the BBC at the time. Yeah, so the book was called Be a Man, How Much Are Culture Damages Us, and How To Escape It. I still wish I'd thought of a pithier subtitle than that, but nevermind. And it was part autobiographical. It was about my descent into Lad culture, which in the UK is the US equivalent would be like jock culture. And how it was all just pretend. And it was all, you know, me covering up my insecurities and bravado, the maquismo, all of that. And how basically after the death of my father in my mid-twenties and trying to take all the cocaine and Manchester, realizing that that wasn't a good way forward. I'm trying to find a different way. And so I started writing and making documentaries for the BBC where I worked about man masculinity, mental health. Yeah, that was the early stages of my steps into this work. And you were not only doing that work. You were speaking in schools. So you were showing young boys and adolescent teens, you know, other ways to show up. And in different ways to express their manhood and I would say healthy or ways. That coupled with, you know, being a contributor to the BBC. Yeah. So I was, I started an organisation called M-Path. M-Hyphen Path. It's a multi-faceted play on words. But basically we were going into schools, talking to young boys to them, not at them, about their experiences of existence. And yeah, and trying to develop better coping strategies, teaching them empathy, compassion, you know, how to have the difficult conversations with each other. And basically also to start being a bit kinder to each other because it's hard being a young boy. And one of my one of my proudest things is that M-Path is still going. I don't do the work anymore because I can't get down with the kids anymore. But I've got five facilitators doing the work and Will Adolfi, who was on the podcast a while back, is now the managing director. He's pushed me down the pecking order of my own business, which is fantastic. I'm now just found somewhere down below. So that's still going and still doing the work, which is vital, I think. Yeah. And we're not going to spend too much time here. But in the time between your first interview with us, and when you returned, a lot had happened. So again, understand, yeah, understand, listen to the episode to really get the full nitty gritty. But you know, you'd been previewed on Trevor Noah's show and you know, it seemed like it was just an upward climb. And then an accusation comes out about you. And not a lot of basis to it, but it was someone that you were in relationship with all turned out to not be true. And a very dark period of your life. And in fact, coming on to the mankind podcast episode 104 was your first time talking about it publicly. And only. And only. Wow. Okay. There you go. And only. So an exclusive. And I encourage you all to check it out because it. I believe you did a really great job of navigating the messy metal of number one ownership. How did you put yourself in that position, right? Even though it was a false claim, you know, how have you showed up in ways that like many of us have that would paint us in those lights. And so you took a little uncomfortable. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And you took a lot of ownership, which I thought was really beautiful. And though you still held your ground to say like, this is, you know, this isn't true. This is false. And it all came out to be false. But yeah, it was just, it was wild to see that, I think, especially in a back then, that was kind of like a mid-me too, kind of space. So a lot of a lot of very electric energy around a conversation like that. But I just, you know, I love how you. How you didn't do what many do, which is find their safe haven in red pill spaces and in cell spaces, right? People get called out for those things and then they just all of a sudden jump in with people that are going to, you know, not hold them accountable and entertain their, you know, justifications for behaving a certain way. You're like, no, you're not going to make exceptions for yourself. No. And in all of the time that has passed since, that conversation to me was a bit of a blur. And if you listen to it, you'll understand why. But the bit of it that stuck with me was at the end, I think you think I'm going to get emotional now. I think you thanked me for not doing that. And I said to you, how could I? Because it would have meant that everything I'd said in the years preceding it was bullshit. And it wasn't. I meant every word that I said before, and I've changed my tune a little bit since because, you know, I'm no longer 20 odd year old. I'm now in late 30s. But I meant all of that work from when I was 29 when I wrote that book onwards. So just because somebody made a false accusation against me, doesn't mean that that stops being how I feel. So it really stuck with me that Brandon. And it was, I've held that day to my heart ever since. So thank you for that. Hey, man. I wouldn't have shared it if I wasn't witnessing it. All right. So again, thank you. Thank you. And I want to thank you again for the work that you're moving into now and the work that you're doing. So when we last met, you had begun the process of getting certified as a licensed, you know, mental health professional, now therapist, which is really cool. So speaking to broad audiences, now working one to one. And where I want to see the conversation today is about really identifying how men are best served when addressing their mental health challenges, be it depression, anxiety or any other forms of, you know, mental health illness, because what we're finding in a lot of cases is therapy, as we've known it, hasn't been working for a lot of men. So let's dive into that. And my hope is that you're listening out there, whether you are currently, you know, currently accessing and getting support through your mental health journey. Here are some things that you can actually bring to your client therapist relationship that may increase the postmancy for yourself. It certainly has for me with my own therapy. So might let's dive into it. What was the why for you getting into the one-to-one relationship with your therapy work? Okay, the why is a bit of a long story, but I'll do the condensed version. 2018, I went traveling to Guatemala because I had broken up with an ex and I was devastated, didn't know what to do with myself. I thought I was going to marry this woman. On this trip, I meet this woman, Annie. Hi, Annie. She'll definitely listen to this. Annie is actually a very, very successful Instagram therapist called Your Pocket Therapist. Now, she's gone crazy big. But anyway, she, I was telling her about my work. And during that time, my friend Charlie was dying like literally weeks away from death. He had told me that I wasn't allowed to come home from my trip because he understood the importance of it. And I'm not going to get into that. That's a whole story on its own. But anyway, so I was meeting people and I was saying to them, at some point during the course of the next few weeks, my mate's going to die. So you have to decide if you want to hang out with a guy who is one day is going to collapse into a heap, right? And Annie was just like, she was trying to be a therapist at the time and she just basically was, I'd only just met her, but she was just like, you have to train to be a therapist. And I hadn't even considered that that was something that existed at that point. I was like, what do you mean? I can't be a therapist. And she's like, why not? So we hang out for the next three weeks and we hang out, you know, I'm seeing her at a festival in a few weeks. Like, we hang out all the time now. And she was right. I did need to be a therapist because I'd spent all of these years researching and understanding men and masculinity and men's mental health. And an hour in a room with a big audience, sure, it can have some impact. But 40, 50 hours with a guy once a one is the most brilliant space I could ever imagine that to be. So I have to thank my friend Annie. She was the one. That was the why. But then the starting it, everything just fell into place. It was just like, this is where I need to be. This is where I, this is where I should have been for a long time. But I wasn't ready for it for a long time. So I, I, I, I started training and I spent three years training and I've now done thousands of hours of therapy with clients and it's the most beautiful, privileged place to work that I could ever imagine. And you work exclusively with men, which for those who haven't listened to your previous episodes, like that makes sense, like they understand that. But for those who are just learning about you, why specifically men, what is the draw there and how does that tie to your personal mission? Well, I didn't initially set out with the mentality of wanting to work solely with men. But then throughout the course of my training, there were so many moments where I realized during my foundation year, we do this, we do these group sessions, which are facilitated. It's called experiential groups. Anyone who's trained to be a therapist or done psychodynamic work, like the experiential group is, is, is a tough gig. And I just, even though it was a male that was running it, I felt so unseen by this man. And he kept speaking to me in ways as if I was some enigma that he didn't understand, because I'm, you know, probably not like most therapists who trained, I don't know. So then, but then I go into my main training and in the room are four men, one of which was will, by the way, four men and something like 20 women, maybe more. There were as many women of color as there were men in the room, which is great for the women of color, but not so great for the men. So then as we are progressing through the course, we are learning about how to work with differences or disability, queerness, you know, lots of different things. And, and in one of these sessions, I put my hand up, and I said, we're talking here about difference, and we're never talking about men. And I start talking about like how there are so many men who are struggling, and there doesn't seem to be a place that's for them. And I'm like, look in this room, right? And I literally get called in to the head of the, the courses office for a talk about white privilege. And I was like, no, it's like, no, no, I'm not talking about being white. I'm talking about the fact that in this profession, men are the minority on both sides of the sofa. And it was that day, it was after that, it was, in fact, the day after that, I was, I sat, and I was like, you know what? Like, this is another case of me putting my money where my mouth is. Like men need targeted spaces. I take, I take a lot of, I take a lot of inspiration from, from organizations like the mankind project, right? Where, you know, you're one of the, one of the OGs in setting up male-only spaces. And the importance of them. So what I thought was, well, if I'm fully honest, it's twofold. First of all, better for the men, second of all, I'm guaranteed to get way more clients that way, just being honest. And it's true. I've been full for two years because I say, I am specifically designed to work with men. I'm creating a model for men. I've been researching men for years, like, come and be male here. Because so men are less likely to come to therapy, more likely to drop out of therapy. And the research shows the main reason that men drop out of therapy is because they don't feel understood by their therapist. So I'll speak to my therapist. I'll swear. I'll laugh with them. What do you know what I mean? Like challenging them, encouraging them, being a bit more direct, speaking to them in a way that they are used to being spoken to and not trying to make them fit into a model that wasn't designed for them. I love that you're bringing this up because we had, we had kind of beaten from man talks come on the show. And he was talking about his program, which he's launching for counselors and therapists to better, to better, to become better equipped to work with men. And we never picked up that topic again since he came on. And so when you, when you reached out, I thought perfect because I want to address this head on the language that he used. And you said this at the beginning, it's a shame we don't have better language for this is that therapy therapy was designed by middle aged men. For women initially. And the model broadly hasn't changed. Now we can talk about it all day. Creating spaces that are psychologically safe. They're still challenging enough to where we can go deep and talk about past experiences. I mean, for some men, that's the, by miles, the deepest digging they will have ever done. So real profound work there. But one thing that I have found and something that Connor brought up in our interview is that traditional therapy will take men down there or take a client down there and then leave them there. Like take him into a wound. Maybe reframe it a little. But then it's like, okay, cool. We'll pick up this next week. And all they have to do is maybe journal on it or just sit with it for a week or however long till the next session where Connor would argue there are other steps that need to be in place. I want to hear your approach because you've made it very clear that men have to be approached differently when it comes to therapy. Obviously, a case by case basis, but more broadly speaking, what are the elements that are missing that you would say from traditional therapy compared to what you're introducing to practice? Basically, it is, when I first went to therapy, I was running rings around my therapist. I wasn't being honest. That wasn't being truthful until one day I said to him, I need you to be more direct with me because right now I'm just telling you what I want and I'm getting away with it. And then he said to me, obviously going away and spoken to a supervisor about this, I now realize. So he comes back and he's like, right, you are banned from speaking about your book, you're banned from speaking about your work, you're banned from speaking about what you understand about men and masculinity. And I was just like, ah, good. All right, dude, now we can get fucking started then, can we? Like, right, okay. So with my clients, I make it very clear from the start. I tell them in our introductory session, I'm like, I'm trained in counseling, psychotherapy and coaching because I think that the psychotherapeutic aspect of it where we go back is vital. But it feels like it can just get a bit churny. We just go back and back and back and around and around and that's where I'll go. Okay, but now we know this, what we're going to do with it. So the coaching comes in. And I'm like, I say to them, I'm going to be, if you've had therapy before or if not, you'll find that I'm quite direct. I'm encouraging. I'm challenging. I'll call you on your bullshit. I will speak to you how you're used to being spoken to. And maybe that's not for you and that's cool. Go and try someone else out. But actually, what we'll do is we will create a model where what I say is, I don't want us to set goals because a goal is a very small area. I want us to set broad aims because if we're aiming over here somewhere and we end up 10 yards to the right, oh, maybe that's actually all right, right? We're close. We're close enough that maybe we don't know where we want to go. But this is about trying to find some solutions to what's going on. And what I say is there will be a very, very clear implementation phase of this work that if you don't do it, this work will not have benefited you in the way that you want it to. So this is like, you have homework this week to go and speak to your misses, so it's too northern English of you of me, to go and speak to your partner, to go and speak to your wife about this difficult thing. And we've spoken about the steps this week about how to do it, and the challenges of why it's hard for you to do. And next week, we're going to talk about, well, okay, you say you don't really understand your anger. Well, next week, we're going to tap into your anger, and we're going to remind ourselves of time that you're angry. And we're going to do that together, and I'm going to be here with you. And then the most important thing is that it seemed to me like part of the therapeutic process we were being taught was it wasn't spoken, but it was like de-masculinization not specifically said implied, right? It was implicit. So to me, it's like no, that's that like you've shown immense courage today to do this work. It's going to take an enormous level of assertiveness and bravery and strength for you to get to where you want to go to. It's calling in the masculine, and saying it's not bad. It's definitely not toxic, right? It is useful. You have been taught these incredibly useful skills by the men in your life. It's just that they've probably pointed them in a less than useful direction. So let's harness those incredible traits and point them here, because the single bravest thing you'll ever do as a man is put your hand up and say, I need help. It's why at the end of every consolation session, I say to prospective clients, well done for making it here, because on my profile, on my therapy profile, it says most guys don't make it this far, so well done for making it here, because it's really difficult to reach out for help. And they need, I need, we all need validation, we need to be encouraged, and why would therapy be only different than that? What's up everyone? I just got back from an impromptu trip to Australia, and if you've ever done that flight, you know the jet lag hits hard. Usually it takes me days to feel normal again, but this time I bounce back much faster, thanks to magic money. I took it each morning, once I got home and the ingredients really kicked in, we're talking lion's mane, which kept my brain sharp, ashwagana, which helped me stay calm despite the time change, and matcha plus L-thianin gave me steady energy without the caffeine crash. Throw in turmeric to reduce inflammation, and I was back on track quicker, I think it was a record for me to get back in my regular sleep cycle. Now what gives me the most confidence about this product is knowing that every ingredient is rigorously tested in each bottle hand inspected, and that's why I trust magic mine. If you want to get your hands on it and try it for yourself, go to magicmind.com/mankind50, and use our code mankind50 for up to 48% off your subscription. Trust me, you will thank me when you get your hands on this stuff, and when you support our sponsors, you support our show. See that's your many of you listening know that we're sponsored by BetterHelp, and that is a big reason why when I went to my therapist Rick, I jumped from the jump, I said I need you to call me on my BS, and not in a way that I want to hear it, say it however you would say it, but I need you call me on it, and I need accountability, I need action steps, I need to, and maybe that action step is sitting with something, but I can't stay there, I've got to, there's got to be, it's like we've activated something in the session talking about it or doing some digging, and now I need to integrate that into my life. And what I'm hearing you say is there's a big integration piece that's really important that they're taking into being, yes, integrating and influencing it into it. Yeah, it's so important, because yeah, I've run rings around so many therapists in the past that I needed a harder edge personally, and again, I'm speaking for me, you're speaking for your clients, we're not speaking for all men, but yeah, broadly speaking, and just from anecdotal evidence and experience in men's groups, it's here at the mankind project in our circles, that's why accountability is like the second on the bill, most nights, it's we check in, we go from the level, we go with emotions, and then we go into the warrior, where are you not keeping your agreements in life? Where are you keeping your agreements, and let's celebrate that, but there's that hard edge of an element of action, an element of doing, which, yeah, I'm guilty of this, I've ran that message for so long, it's like it's about being, as opposed to doing, as men we've been raised to do, do, do, but the real mastery is in the being, and, and, where do I get a sense of fulfillment from the doing as well? Like, it's not one without the other, it's like I can be, and a large part of my being is because I'm very effective at doing. There's so many things that have come up for me, I mean, the first thing that's come to me is, after the end of my first session with every client, the homework is always, I want you to find 10 minutes between this week and next week to sit down and try to genuinely tap into a sense of pride that you are doing this work. Now, if you don't know what pride feels like, you can report back, right? But we can take, we can go, we can go one of two paths, right? If we don't feel the pride for the work that we're doing, and being prideful is often this thing that is denigrated, and it's like, no, pride is a, as long as we're not prideful, like, boastful, having pride is important, take pride in your work, that's how I frame it to them, right? Because this is work, we're doing the work. This is about helping them to understand that this is a challenge, and one of the ways, again, when we train to be a therapist, the classic psychodynamic approach is, don't tell your client anything about you. And I'm sorry, but that is, that is not an appropriate response to men, because I remember a client very early on saying, oh, but this is just easy for you. And I was like, dude, you seem to forget that long before I was a therapist, I was a man first, and a boy before that. Like, I'm just many years down the road of this journey that you're on now, and I've been in not the same place, but I've had a similar, I've challenged, I've wanted to quit therapy. I went to my first therapist, and she didn't turn up, so I was like, well, the universe says I don't need therapy, right? Like, I've done all of this, and actually a little bit of sharing about yourself in opportune moments, it goes against the entire therapy mold, and he would be, and he's like hardcore psychoanalytical, she would be, she'd be cringing as she hears me say this now, but that approach works for her and her clients. For my clients, it's like, sometimes I'll go, you know what? I know this space, and here's what it was like for me, and here's how very, very briefly, and here's the challenge that I face to get out of it. And so I know where it's empathy building. Well, and you're giving someone the gift of going second. You know, someone's on the edge, and even the thought of just having those words exit their mouth be terrifying. I see this in men's work all the time. Men come for their first or second session. And when they see someone else just go for it, I was molested, or gone through divorce. I lost custody of my kids, or whatever. I see these men that are newcomers, that, boom, they want in, they want in. And it's almost like they go from not sharing really anything at all to, like they can't shut up. Because they just need permission, Brandon, that's all they need. They just need permission. Nobody's given them permission to share their whole life, in fact, quite the opposite. People have told these guys their whole life, you're, you are not entitled to share your pain. So suddenly they have some random guy sitting next to them. And Steve goes, yeah, I've been in the darkest place you can be. And here's my experience of it. And then suddenly the guy next to him goes, we can do that. We're allowed to do that. Like, yes, yes, you are. But we have to be given permission. And that is why the spaces that we create that are male only are to me sacred in that way. Yeah, they really are. So we had a Dr. Tiffany Bartow, dear friend of mine, come on and and she's a therapist that works specifically with Gen Z. So college college, college age students are really, she's a really phenomenal authority in that space. Although she would not call us off of authority, she's bloody brilliant. And I'm going to say that on her behalf. And she, we talk about the man box a lot. And we spoke about it on the show. And she said something really insightful, which was as a, as a female, I also claim responsibility for establishing, you know, reinforcing the man box and, and pushing men in that direction. She's talking about in her life, not as she currently stands. Yeah, hopefully not as a therapist, hopefully not as a therapist, but as what she, what she did share is that, you know, a lot of women will, will ask they, they, they will cry out loud for men to, to open up and share their feelings and not be so locked down. But for so many men, they will do that. They will finally take that step and share. And then it can be used against them. Yep. How often you see in that with, with men you find kind of in that dichotomy of like, yeah, I know Brunei Brown is saying this is courageous to be vulnerable. And I know my partners craving to get to know the deeper levels of me. But when I've done it in the past, I've been burned. Yeah, they don't trust it. And how can you trust it? And that, and that is where the therapy space, you know, maybe somebody will, for the first time, talk about a time when they were seriously abused. Maybe someone will talk for the 10th time about the fact that they are really, really depressed. And for the first time, somebody goes, okay, tell me more, you can say that here. And I'm not going to panic. I'm going to hold that space. I'm not going to belittle you. I'm not going to shame you. I'm not going to tell you that it's not important. I'm going to say, okay, tell me more, do you want to tell me more? How would, how can we make this so you can tell me this safely? And sometimes I can say, you know what? I feel like you're becoming hyper aroused. Maybe we just take a little break for a second. It's tough, isn't it? Right? It's hard. This is hard. Right? And then I make a joke. Like I hate to say, I told you so, but I did say in the first session, like, this is going to get hard. Then here we are. Because I've got levity as well. Like joking, I'm a big believer in the archetype of the fool, you know, the fool was the guy, the only person who was allowed to mock the king. And in doing so, the king becomes more human. And so if we can mock how ridiculous, I say to the client sometimes, like, it's mad, this isn't it? Like this is a ridiculous thing that we're doing together. Yeah. And I'm like, right, can we acknowledge that sometimes? Like, let's be real together. Well said. Well said. So let me ask you, obviously, you're, you're calendars full with who you're working with. Let me ask you, the menu working with, obviously, you know, confidentiality is going to be maintained. So we're looking at broad trends here. What are the biggest sticking points that number one are preventing men from getting in to just even ask to even book the consultation. And then I want you to follow that with what is it that's making them stay? So I can only speak from my personal experience. Obviously, I read all the research. And if I'm a zack sidler acolytes amongst others, I'm Christopher and all of his acolytes. The the major sticking point for me is that men. Okay, here's my here's my product placement. So I'm about to launch in the UK thing called men's therapy hub. In a couple of months, we're going to be launching in the US with a guy called Jetstone who I've told you you should get on and you said you will do. So when we're launched in the US, great. And this is male therapists for male clients because just as an example, I go on a therapy website. I type in my location, whatever, and then what do I need help with? And for women, there are, you know, menopause, you know, pregnancy. There's loads of different things that are specific to women. And then there's just this men's issues, right? So this is all encompassing term men's issues. Like, what does that mean? Okay. So then you click men's issues, 75% of the profiles are female. Can you imagine the gender reverse of that? And this is not women's fault. I'm not blaming women for this. We are, you know, we play the ball as it lies, like yes, women. And I'm not saying that women can't be good therapists for men, just I feel like I have to caveat sometimes. And it's a shame that we do caveat or even feel the need to caveat, but it's, you know, it is helpful. And so men don't see a space that's for them. Where are the famous male therapists? Right? There's one or two. Dr. Phil. What are you doing? There's so many renowned, I mean, Annie, my friend Annie, she's got like nearly half a million followers over TikTok and Instagram, right? But we don't look to men for that. So men don't feel like it's a space for them, first of all. Then when they come on, they see this like woolly, fluffy language, you know, so many therapist websites is just like, you know, a tree lined avenue or like a sky with a sunset. And it's like, I think we can go too far. I've seen some therapy, I've seen some like male specific ones that are just like fire and brimstone. And it's like, okay, maybe somewhere in the middle. But can we make it? And this is what Connor's doing. And I know a guy who's been on Connor's course and like big up Connor, like I haven't, I haven't, I haven't met him yet. I would like to one day. He is doing, he is, he is crossing that bridge so well. And you see in the way that he presents his stuff. So like I said on my profile, I just say, this is for men. And I'm just like, Hey, man, like, well done for making it here. This is hard. Like, I specialize. And this is what I do. I specialize in working with men who haven't been to therapy before. Who don't know what they're doing. Who are terrified of the process. And don't know what an emotion is. Doesn't quite say that. But that's basically it. And so the, I told you before we came live. So that's the issue of getting them in. Once they're in, most men drop out after about two sessions. So I was like, well, how can I, how can I circumvent that? So I make clients say, if you want to work, if you want to work with me, think of me like a PT. You pay for me for four sessions up front. So you pay in blocks of four. Now, of course, if you change your mind after two, you get your money back. It's not about that. But it's making a psychological determination to say, I am going to do this work because I say to them, this is going to be hard. It's going to get harder before it gets easier. And if you're not up for that, then you're not ready for therapy. And that's okay. But it is going to be difficult. And so many guys will say, I had this therapist and she mostly, obviously, just because of the number, she was just like a cozy arm around my shoulder, which was nice for a time. And I'm like, well, I'll do the arm around the shoulder. And I'll be pointing in a direction at the same time. Like, we can do both. So again, it's about making it male specific and the language and the approach and everything. And you know, so many people are just like, oh, we passed all that gender stuff. And it's like really like we are so deep in the gender stuff that that we have to, you know, we have to address the reality of it, which is the men need this tailored approach. And my dropout rates are quite low in terms of the second session. And, you know, most clients will make it to 15, 20, which at that point, even if it gets too expensive or too, there's at least some changes happened. And now that's not because I'm the world's best therapist, right? Because I'm still new at this. But it is because I've been working for 10 years to understand men before I became a therapist. Well, and if I'm not mistaken, shouldn't the idea be that they graduate from you? Yeah, I'm constantly trying to put myself out of business. It's very strange. It's very strange. Because yeah, I mean, if it's like, okay, you've been seeing the same therapist for three, four, five years, plus no judgment there, but just an awareness of like, maybe change your therapist. Has the subject matter changed in that time? Right. Has the has the work layer changed in that time? Even the context and phases of life will present different and unique challenges. And you can always come back. Right. Exactly. So the thing for me that that's attractive about this is because it's, I mean, just saying the thing that it is, it's a more masculine approach to therapy for men. And not to say that that's good, right, bad or otherwise, but where are men who have an absence of health, female role models in their lives and male support? Where are they ending up in hyper masculine spaces? Now I would judge that idea of masculinity is kind of stupid if we're like talking about the Andrew Tates or the red pill spaces and stuff, but they're finding connection in those spaces. It's performative, right? It's performative bingo. But what's the message they're seeing? It's a peel off positive. It starts off positive. You know, you're responsible for your own life, take control of your life, improve your finances, create accountability, follow through on what you say you're going to do. You're like, yes, yes, yes, yes. And then you get in. And it's like by my course, so that you can get more notches on your headboard and treat women horrible and all the rest of it. So you can be a misogynist. So you can be a misogynist and be a prick. So and yeah, where do those men end up in in cell reddit farms? And they end up in that. This is, this is why I've, so the men's therapy of the whole idea for it is in the UK, it's psychotherapy and counseling. I know in the US counseling is different, but so jet is going to be hot on the US version, get in the wording, right? But it literally says front page bam psychotherapy and counseling by men for men. Pretty sure. Right. Here we go. And I'm trying to make it as as as easy as possible to get to a point. So you go on some therapy directories and you've got like essays by these therapists. I've like, you've got a bit about me. And then you've got so you've got 600 characters to write about yourself. And you've got 600 characters to write about your approach with men. And if you can't sell yourself in that time, go away and think about it. Because because I've, for years, I've been talking about if you give men an off-ramp away from mental health care, they take it. If you give men an off-ramp away from engaging in feminist discourse, right? I have to whisper it because otherwise you lose some guys, right? They'll take it. If you use terms like patriarchy, toxic masculinity, it's an off-ramp. I don't use it. Don't use it, right? So create an environment where they want to stay. And that's why often three, four sessions in, I'll go for a little stab in the dark and say, so how can it's this? I'm very often because it's actually fairly obvious. And that's where the direct approach, which actually we were taught not to do. But then suddenly you see these guys go, like, oh yeah, okay, that makes sense. Yeah. And you've got them. And you go, okay, great. Now we can do some work. Yeah. Well, you can call them out or call them in. Whatever mechanism is going to be more effective in getting them to wake up. Both. And yeah, right. So yes, good, good. I'm so excited for this. Right. I'm so excited for this because this is what I feel like I've been missing in a lot of spaces because for some men going to a peer support network like our circles here at the mankind project, like that's just such a leap. And having these conversations one to one is such, especially for the introverts, especially for the introverts to have this one-on-one relationship to practice. I think for many minutes, just a chance to practice to take these things that are swirling in their head in their heart and just get it out. So they can look at it from an objective lens and go, oh, wow, that's unfounded. Oh, wow, that's story. I've been telling myself is BS. Oh, wow, that was a really horrible thing that happened to me like objectively. And I shouldn't be minimizing it the way I have been or whatever. And yeah, I'm just I'm loving what I'm hearing. So tell us about the vision for men's therapy hub, the impact you want to have and how our listeners can get involved. Yeah. Before I do that, what I do, I will do that. And you can edit this out if you don't like it. But the, I would say, and actually, I just put a post on Instagram, I'm back on Instagram. But there we have to do it. Running a business now, Brandon. So I put a post up today, which is about happiness being impermanent. And I would say the most common issue that men come to therapy with, aside from normalized male Alexa thymia, which I recommend that you Google, which is basically the the, the inability to engage with and understand your own emotions. Alexa thymia is a clinical thing, normalized male Alexa thymia guy called Ronald Levant came up with the term norm. It's normalized male inability. So early sessions is literally what's an emotion? What's it like to feel? Where do you feel? How do you feel? Right. EQ 101. Right. Right. Then one of the most common things that I experienced with men is what is success to them. Right. And I am, and I am very proud of the fact that over the course of the years that I've worked together, I've got three clients to go down to a four day week. And I've got one client, you know, spend more time with his daughter and like not work so hard because you already have enough, dude. Like you've already done the hard work. You're a, you're a, you're a captain of industry. You've got everything that you need. You don't need anymore. Have you thought about earning less and working less? And it's like, what's an option? Yes. Yeah. So that, to me, is I'm not trying to slowly undermine capitalism, but that is in essence what this is partly about, which is you don't need more. It's about learning to be content with what you have. And that's not for everybody. Some people do need more. Right. Let me jump. Let me jump in next. I resonate with that so much because I work with founders and I work with director level and above in the tech space. And it's amazing how many of them started or founded these companies in their 20s where they had all the energy in the world. They had all the testosterone in the world. They, they, they, they, they hadn't completely tanked their, you know, their, their happy chemicals in their brain. And then all of a sudden, they have an opportunity to raise another round. They're entering to their 30s. They're, or they're raising their third or fourth round of money. They're in their 30s. They got a family. They've got kids and they're going into it with the same energy, but they're coming to me going like, am I about to do a deal with the devil right now? Am I really, they're in that in between because history is telling them they need to do this. The industry is telling them they need to do that. And when I ask them what success looks like. And it's autonomy. It's freedom. It's being able to spend, pick up my kid from school, make every recital. And it's like the why on earth, you've given considering this path. And then you're pushing for more growth being go. And then they're selling, you know, then they're obviously, then they're getting bought out and just retain keeping a retainer as, you know, as a fractional or whatever. And it's just like, yes, there you go. Right. Now you're getting what you want. Right. Yeah. You earned, you earned those monthly golf trips to who'd like, you know, take them, take them. So anyway, that, that, that was, that was like the thing that I really wanted to get out today because that is. I love that. I'm also speaking to myself in that and I'm launching a business and I want it to grow to a thousand therapist list. And I'm just like, you know what? If there's 20 guys on there and it's useful and all 20 of those guys are full, it's a success. Right. So, so yeah, to talk about men's therapy hub. So, initially launching in the UK is just on live today, men's therapy hub dot c o dot UK to those who want, who want English British. Currently has two holder profiles on there that zero profiles listed currently because I haven't even sent it out yet. I've got a hundred-ish male therapist in the UK that I've shown interest and give me their email addresses. The plan is it's free to be listed until you get to 50, until 50 therapists are listed, then it feels like a minimum viable product. And I've now, now, I now know all these business terms. And then it's going to be five pounds a month. So, what's that? $75, $75, $50 a month. The big ones charge 25 quid a month. And I'm just like, no, I don't know. This is not about making money for me. I am plenty of money as a therapist. Thank you very much. So, so, so getting away from the business model because I'm not sure I'll listen as it will be too. Okay. Unless they're therapists wanting to get involved. But as far as the listeners who want to get therapy. So, the idea is to get as many men on there as possible who are both available online and in person around the UK. And then in a couple of months we're going to launch in the US because Jet knows about them how to do it cross, cross state with the insurance and stuff. So, that's great. And the idea is this is so 10% of all of our of all of our revenue goes to charities because this is about advocacy. This is about here is a website for guys to come and find men who want to work with them. And all of the men on our site are specifically men who want to work with more men. And we will be hosting sessions called CPD. So, all of our therapist continuing professional development. All of our therapists will be doing that. It's free of charge. It's open source. Like it's for everybody. And every man who's on there is a man who is actively seeking to work with you, whoever you are. Like if you are male, the men on our site want to work with you. Because these therapists do exist. There are so many men out there who say, I want to work with more men. Or interestingly, the only clients I have are male, but I've only got five and I want 10, right? Because 10 would be a figure for them. So it's like good. And then alongside that, it's also how can we get more men into therapy? And that is the bit that we haven't quite figured out yet, but just by normalizing and you know, opening up the space and making it visible, I'm hoping that it will encourage more. The men are there. They just need there needs to be just amplification of this. Yes. Yes. And I think that they're talking about it. We're talking about it. People, I mean, when men say online, they're like, I'm so pissed off that no one's talking about men's mental health. And I'm like, well, we'll wait a second, dude. In the spaces you exist, no one's talking about it. Many have been talking about this for decades now. It's just now that we're now that we're gaining momentum and hitting a fever pitch and it's becoming more normalized and less stigmatized. Now it's about amplification, about making them even louder and louder about it. So made a love that you're doing that. And I think it's, oh, God, I'm just so excited. I feel like you are so uniquely positioned to take this thing, to launch it and to get it into the right spaces around the globe. And of course, mate, just always a pleasure to have you here on the show. It's way too fun. We got to get you on more often. I appreciate it so much, Brendan. I will be here whenever you ask, because I always love our conversations. And it's, I've said it three times now, but it's a privilege to get to have this platform to speak to so many people who are pushing in the same direction because right now there is a movement happening in the Western world. And it is a movement to help men. And yeah, you know, you were one of the OGs. So big up, big up mankind projects always and forever. Beautiful. Well, thank you, mate. We'll say until next time, hopefully very soon. But of course, the greatest thanks goes to you, the listeners who show up each and every week for the mankind podcast, the show where we break the mold of modern manhood to prove there is more than one way to be a man. What do you say, Chris, we achieved that today? Absolutely. There was an infinite number of ways. Finally, a guest who didn't finish with, I think so. We know so. Lots of love. We'll see you next week. This has been another episode of the mankind podcast, produced in association with the mankind project USA. We have been your host, boys and Hodgson and myself, Brandon Clifton. We want to thank our guests for joining us today and imparting their wisdom from their experiences in this amazing journey called life. If you want to find out more about today's guests and support them in their mission, you can find links to them in the show notes. Now, if you have found gold and insights that you believe could benefit your loved ones and those you care about, be sure to share it with them. And of course, we are always grateful for a rating and review of the show on iTunes. Now, above all else, we've got to thank you, the listener, because through your attention and your support, you have made it possible for us to let men all over the world know that they are not alone and that there is more than one way to be a man. And if something in this episode has touched you then perhaps it is the call to action to get involved in men's work. With live trainings happening constantly and in-person trainings happening all over the world, the mankind project definitely has something for you. Now, if you've enjoyed the music in this episode and all of our episodes, be sure to check out Jim Donovan and the Sun King Warriors. I have links to them in the show notes. And lastly, just know what it means to me to be a man is completely different than what it means for you. That is the beauty of this journey. So, if you are looking for guidance, support and community, as you begin to unpack and dive deeper into your men's work journey, then you know where to find us. Same place, same time, next week. Lots of love, we'll see you then. We'll be using this podcast and we have a goal. Brandon and I want to get the 255 star reviews. So, help us out. Will you? Please. Go to the mankind podcast on Apple Podcasts for Spotify. And leave us a review. Thank you. Hey, it's poison. On the mankind podcast, we brought some incredible guests on to talk about the importance of doing the work to improve our mental and emotional health. And here's a truth. Multiple times over the last 25 years, I've had the help of one-on-one work with some amazing therapists. For me, for my wife, for both of us has adopted parents and for our kids. The mankind project and men's group, though awesome, are not a substitute for professional mental health support. And so, I'm thrilled that the mankind podcast now has better help as a sponsor for the show. Better help works online. It asks you what you're working on and then matches you for live one-on-one sessions with a licensed therapist. Someone trained to work with you, listen and offer helpful insights. I'm using better help. It's super easy and I like what I'm getting. If getting one-on-one support in the comfort of your own space feels like a good direction for you, I invite you to check it out. Go to the link in the show notes or betterhelp.com/mankind. And if you sign up, you'll get 10% off your first month therapy.