#221 – Jorge Sanchez: The Immigrant Mindset that Built a Chicago Empire

[Music] A single theme is two now with great minds and daring hearts. Get ready to enter the line heart with your host, Lauren Stein. George, so great to see you and let's talk about what we first met. You were representing yourself selling your new construction buildings and on Ardenkson. And we came to within about 50,000 to buildings and my client ran out of money but he set off throwing a nice vintage 911 and you said, "Okay." And I was like, "I like that guy. That's my kind of guy." Well, thank you for having me. Yeah, that was a crazy time. Definitely something new with real set every time, right? Every deal is just not the same. Every deal is different. Well, one of the things that I love about you, I'm so lucky. I feel like now it's easy for me to look at what I do and I'm working with all these developers like you, selling their projects. But it wasn't a direct path there. And when I look back now, I was doing a lot of multi-units but yours were the first new construction that I sold on Ardenkson. And now that's kind of my bread and butter. So it's so cool. I'm so grateful for you because you've introduced me to so many people. But what I love about working with people like you is so many people tell me like, "I want to build." And they don't understand that it's not that easy. And you have so many challenges in Chicago. And I've sold projects with people where they lose money. It's so to see you doing what you do with your such good track record. It's really awesome to be a little part of it. Yeah, it's been challenging. It's been years in the making, man. A lot of fights, but a lot of good fights. It's been challenging going through the cycles of real estate. I started in 2003 and it's just been up and down, up and down. And then you get to a little study and then when you think everything is cruising nice and neat and just hitting on the bump. So I was in finance when 2008-2009 happened. But you were building. What was that like? Like all of us everybody that I talked to this beat in real estate for a long time will say that they lost money during those years. How was it for you? Oh, it was brutal. I mean, I lost everything I had in 2008-2010. It was just brutal. It was just a really tough time. I was doing project and lake and halls that it took me over a year to get plants and permits in that place. And by the time I started doing construction and then that was started in 2007 and 2008, everything went sideways. So I lost everything. So the way I understood it, I wasn't in real estate at the time, but the story I've heard is you'd have your loan and they called the loan early for the whole entire loan. Of course you can't pay and then they would take the building because that won't happen. Well, I was lucky enough to have good relationship with the bank in a way. Even though they still pull the rug underneath me where they called the loan. But I still had a personal relationship and they worked with me through it. But at the end of the day, you don't make any money. I mean, you can work for free for two to three years and whatever equity you had, whatever money you put in is gone. So I went from doing high-end real estate to explore the South Side of Chicago and go to areas that I was never going to. That was not my thing. So I went from doing, I always done new construction. I went from doing new construction to doing rehabs, finishing a project for other people and that was a whole new ball game. Because that was not my thing. I was not in business to hold any rentals. I was not in business to do any rehabs. I was not set up to collect rents. But then I did a bunch of receivership, you know, kind of like one team brought another. So same banks, some of the banks that I was working with, they also worked with a lot of units. And they couldn't finish the units, but also they couldn't figure out a way to collect the units. The city was giving violations and with me was like one stop shop. You know, I'll come and finish a project. I'll collect the rents for you and I'll manage the building until they sell it and I help them through the receivership. So I did that for years and that's how I got my foot back. Well, I never really really left, but it just paid the bills. It just kept the wheels turning, you know. So when you were doing that, how do they pay you? A bit of everything that paid you for the work, because at GC they paid you for the management. Right. So they will pay a management fee. I'll charge a little extra for, you know, to go to court and help put all the reports together for the receivership. So, you know, you make a little bit of money, but it's not a lot because you got to know overhead, right? You got insurance, you got the office, you got people and you get all the bills that come with the office. So it looks good, but it's not that good. You know, you're not making a lot of money. Your profit is very, very thin, but you know, you keep your relationships open with the bank and you continue working. You know, it's just the whole idea is to just keep pushing through, you know, and just keep going. That is a great metaphor for life, you know. When you're going through tough times, keep going. Yeah, I mean, it's not like I had an option. I mean, I was not going to quit and go work at Starbucks. I mean, you know, I don't think I make a coffee. Well, I know a little bit about your background. I know you grew up on a farm in Mexico and you left home super young. But I can you talk a little bit about that because I think that's that's the most remarkable. Because for me, I, if I look at my life, how lucky I was two parent households, I say the suburb of London that I grew up in, I describe it as the Winecker of England. It was, it was a lovely suburb safe, lovely house. It's lovely people. I grew up thinking that's normal. And then I hear stories like you now, you know, looking you, you're successful. You have your company, but you came from you, you are the definition of a self-made man. So, so awesome. Well, I tried, but I grew up in a farm, very small farm out in Mexico and just cut up up in the mountains. So the, our nearest, we have one neighbor and they moved out on us. So the nearest town was five kilometers away. So it was kind of stretch. I left the house when I was really young. I probably was nine, ten years old when I left the house. And then, you know, I reunite with a family years later and then I end up coming here and stay with my brothers. And we opened a, a payment business. My two brothers and my sister. So, wait, so when you're nine, ten years old, what did you do? Just venture off. I mean, kind of venture off and sleeping people's couches and random houses. You know, friends, friends with friends. I say with family sometimes. But in your head, you just like, I've got to get out and figure something out. Or what were you thinking? It's hard to say what I was, I guess, in a way run away from. But somehow it's just kind of stay grounded in a way, I guess. I mean, looking back, living the farm was actually a good life. But I didn't see it that way back then. You know, to me, it was just, you know, I got to work every day. You know, it like takes you to the cattle and the farm work is a lot of work. You know, people on the rest of me, how much work goes into farm? And you throw a bunch of cattle in there and it's just, it's just a lot. So yeah, that's, that was challenging. It was tough times. But your oldest is about to turn 10, right? And so it's all the sun. He's about to turn 10. But it's crazy to think where he is. Like the life he lives in a nice, you know, suburb of Tampa compared to you at the Save Age, where you're just like, I'm going to figure this out and run away. Oh, yeah, my god. My, my, my, my, my oldest son, we leave a, a black away from McDonald's. And for the first time, I told my wife, like, all right, our son has to learn things on his own. Send it to McDonald's by himself. No phone, no nothing. It's just send the model he's on. I mean, he's almost 10 years old, right? It's only I wasn't the street. When I was back, you sold a figure things out, you know, take the bus, take whatever. And, um, and we did it. My wife was nervous. That's for sure. But it worked out, you know, he, he went and came back and bought a couple burgers. So he was happy. But I think he was a little shy, but looking back, he was different times. What's so interesting when you even just the way people raise kids in the, say, in an American city versus in different countries where they have different cultures. So it's a big thing in Germany where they'll let their kids take the, the subway by themselves when they're eight, nine years old. I don't think any parent would like their kids if they have a choice to be taken to the, the CTA, you know, eight years old by themselves. So it's just, it's funny how different cultures have different norms that's acceptable and what's not acceptable. Oh, yeah. I, I mean, I live in a, you know, large city in Mexico, the second largest city in Mexico is Wala, and I would take a bus and a train to get to a job that I had. And I walked like five blocks just to get to the job where I work in a little factory organizing stuff from the factory. There was no phone. There was nothing. You know, and you, you walked the same, you know, blocks back and take the same sort of transportation every day. And there's, you know, it's so like normalized. And here everybody, you know, everybody freaks out, like, you know, how can I let my kid out? And my like, you know, different cultures, different, different life. But it's so funny because I know there's a big expat community. I forget the city in Mexico. And I want to mean it where it has like a couple of hundred thousand of Americans, a lot of local retirees go there. Yeah, it's on Miguel, I think. It's on me. Yeah. And they say like the, obviously the climate's amazing. But like the quality of food is really good. It's most organic, freshly grown. And it's, it's so funny because I love being here. I'm such a patriot. But I also see the appeal of something like that where you make your money, you want to retire. You want it. It does sound like an idyllic life there. You know, but then you have so many other people trying to leave Mexico to come here for the opportunity. So it's interesting how that works. Very interesting. If you look at my, my dad is 87 years old. And my mom is 86. Actually, I think they, they turn 88 and their whole life is being in the farm. They have their own milk, cheese, all the vegetables they grow. Beans every city as you can think of, they grow it is fresh. And my parents are pretty good. to hell, they take care of themselves. They don't need anybody to take care of that. They're getting the DH, they're obviously is getting more challenging, right? But my dad is still kicking his screaming man. Every day he still trucks the killing and goes out in the field. It's a whole different life. The food I think is probably one of the biggest impacts I can think of. Is the food is so much cleaner. There's the fertilizer with the same cow manure. So it's a whole different type of life. So the food doesn't play a huge, huge role in our life. Do you ever think about, I mean, you're still so young, but do you think about way you wanna be when you retire one day to think about going back or not? I don't think I wanna retire. Me too. I get the question that's called the time. And I have some mentors and I have some people that I look up to on their older age. And they don't want to retire. My dad don't want to retire. My dad's still. That's amazing. Still going around and buying a house and 87 years old and I asked my dad, like, what are you doing by the house? And he's like, I realized it's not about the house. It's not about just the drive. This is what keeps him going. Honestly, that idea of retiring, I feel like if you hate what you do, it's a light at the end of the tunnel. Like one day I wanna retire. But if you like what you do, why? And I just see, I've noticed it with my dad, especially about other people too. What do you don't have purpose? You're definitely not happier. You're just everything, all the good things about your curiosity and your passion, your excitement, it's all dulled. And it's just, it's not something to be, I agree. I don't really dream about not doing anything. Like I love what I do and I wanna keep to doing it for a long time. - Man, I'm with you. I love what I do. I wouldn't change what I do for anything. Even with all the struggles, even with everything that goes on on the day to day between all the stuff with the city, all the struggles you go trying to get a permit, inspections, things, buyers or whatever comes my way. I can't see myself, not, you know, I love what I do. I don't feel like I have a job. And all the people that work with me, I'm very fortunate because nobody leaves. So all the people that have been working with me, they don't, I don't make anybody clocking or clock out. Everybody kind of does their own thing, but we work together. And that to me is just, that's the best thing you can do. It just keep people around you. And I like to think that my team is great and I'm always good as they are. Because they're good, they make me good. And if they were bad, I mean, you know, I know everybody can use a little bit of help, but all in all, they're great people. - So when you first moved here, you're working for, you said you're older, two brothers and your sister and you had a paving company? - So my whole family has been in the paving industry for many, many years since the 80s. So my brothers were doing the bigger jobs. And my two brothers, they're older than me. They were in college and I was in high school. We'll be doing, my sister was a salesperson in a way. And my two brothers and I will be doing, you know, it's your coding dry within and things like that. That's how we started and then in the summer, all summer long I was in paving, you know. - So why did they choose of all the places? Why Chicago? Why did they come here? - My dad used to work in steel mills back in the days. So that's kind of how the ground started. So my dad used to come here and work in steel mills. So he used to work for republics, too. And so all the brother came here and just kind of like, you know, when you people, when you some stuff, my uncle used to live in the South side of Chicago. Actually, I think he owned a building on 87th and Buffalo, which I was curious to see if I can find the property. It'll be cool to buy a bag. I don't know if you buy a bag. - So what area is that, Chatham? - Nothing this, East Chicago or such. - Oh, East, okay. East Chicago, I think. Not 100% sure. - So the one thing I love about your business model and everyone has most developers have kind of their strategy, but your, a lot of the projects we've been doing the last few years have been around. Like the medical center, close to Mount Sinai Hospital, that's kind of a good pocket. Are you, one thing I love about you is your very strategic. You don't just buy random lots and do this. Your very strategic on the business model of, if you own a bunch of lots in an area and say you're, you're developing a couple every year. Every time you develop one and then you sell it, the price of all the other lots probably goes up a little bit. And then you develop the next couple and may hopefully the sales price a little bit higher than all the value of the lots got up. So it's very smart of you to kind of pick these areas and basically the work you're doing is adding value to the lots that you're gonna build on. So it's very strategic. But how did you first get, 'cause I think when I met you, you're already developing in that area. That was a year ago maybe you've been doing this a while in that area. How did you find that pocket? 'Cause most of the other people I'm working with, they're either out west, they're either out down south. But you're the man in that little area. - Well, I like to think as if you're gonna make a name picked on a neighborhood, you really gotta be committed to it. So you gotta be able to buy land and do things along the whole. It really is a long term play. And most people think real studies getting, make a couple bucks and get out. And that's not my strategy. I think a lot of people get their words for them and they get lucky, it doesn't work for me. For me, it works on a long term basis. So, I like to make a change on the neighborhood. So if I have access to streets that run straight downtown, transportation and you're not too far from the medical district, you get the hospital and you get rushed to little far east but still close enough. Somebody can leave there and take one short bus and be at work. - Yeah. - Right? Or somebody can walk right over to Mount Sinai. So to me, that's how you make an impact on a neighborhood. So for me, it's always like, let me see, find an area that has a need. So if you go through that area, now it's getting more developed, right? I have built a bunch of buildings there. But before, it was all just vacant land. So it was, it had no service whatsoever. So if you're gonna make a change, you really gotta plan it out, acquire the land, which takes years, then you gotta be able to sustain the land, pay taxes, maintain the land, right? The CHK, I love seeing giving tickets. - When you say it takes years, you mean to accumulate a bunch in an area. So we've been slowly-- - Right, it takes years to accumulate the land and then to start developing. Because you can't develop everything at once, right? It takes a lot of money, right? And you know, I don't have a living at funds. So that's how I view it. I take an area that really needs it and I do just a concentration and I start developing little by little. And yeah, my strategy is to build little by little and create value on the same area, the same neighborhood. And little by little bring life to the neighborhoods that are not being served, right? So now if you go through those neighborhoods, now there's a bank, now, you know, there is, you know, there's just, there's a coffee shop down the street. There's more stuff that is serving the community. So now you can see an actual change. You can drive by and say, you know, when I started working here, eight, 10 years ago, there was nothing here. And slowly you actually make an attention on neighborhood. And a lot of people go to different parts of the city and they just infill, they just buy a piece of land because they think it's close to downtown or whatever. And they just build it. But they don't think it a long-term hall with, are you really serving to the community? So I like to serve some to the community and build a neighborhood. - I think just the idea of thinking along time, I feel like there isn't a person that wouldn't benefit from having a longer time horizon in the way they see things. I just think that like if you're coming to a difficult decision in life, and you just, you know, do I do this or do I do that? If you're thinking about now, it might be a difficult decision. But if you zoom out and you say, what would myself in five years and 10 years, which one of these big decisions would I rather go through? I feel like that always gives you your answer. So I just think having a long-term time horizon is just such a smart strategy to weigh living life, you know? - For me, it's always like, you know what, let me see what I can map out in the next. You know, I don't do month to month plans because you wanna be realistic with new development, right? So I do 18 months, I do 24 months, and I have five years. And let me see what five years is gonna bring. So I buy land in areas that, okay, they're little underserved, but I think I can really make a change. And I just start grinding little by little and once I start building it, then all the people follow is like, if you build it, people will come, right? So I actually do believe that happens. If you start building, when I started building on those areas, there was nobody building there. And everybody thought was crazy. And now all of a sudden, now you see all their builders, you know, to come in around and building. And I think it's a great thing. I think competition is a great thing. I think if people follow you, you know, you're making a change. You know, as you bring in the neighborhood back to life, the city gets more money. The neighborhood, the values of the properties come up. And you feel all this vacant land that is once was full with a broken car that was set there for years or months. So it really makes an impact. It makes you feel good. And you drive by the neighborhood like, hey, change, it looks good. You know, like it makes, it makes such a difference, you know? A lot of times it's harder than it looks like. But if you put time into it, you build it. I think the coolest thing is when you build something and there's no, there's no comps to go off. But you're like, I think I can sell it for this much and then you think I think I can get about 2,300 unit. That's about 7,000. But if someone says, and I've had this so many times where I'll have a potential buyer and they say, well, can you show me some rental comps showing 7,000 for a building like this in that area? And I say no, because there isn't any, but I think we can get it. And I feel like I've been saying that for 10 years, the first one that I saw that's actually on Sermack a little bit for the e There was a building there and I sold it for 700 and the appraiser came in at 520 and he said he was using buildings in Englewood Which obviously is nothing like Pilsen, but he was kind of a not the smartest appraiser But there was just nothing like it and I remember telling him like oh rent for this much He's like oh I can't really see this rent and of course we ended up throwing it out getting a new appraiser Which is incredibly hard it appraised over what it sold for they got the exact rents that I said that was 10 years ago And now you know that's worth it's gone up so much the value But now there's a million comps right here then you go to the stuff we were doing I think the first one that I sold for you in that area was in Washington I don't think there were comps there there wasn't any comps for the rents that we got there either in that little pocket You know, no that was actually the first building I built on that area I bought a bunch of land there and that was the first building that we did and we went through tough times because it was kind of right after Covid there was a huge torture lumber and we had to do a hybrid building where we did some of the building was made with metal framing And some of it was wood wood and it was it was really challenging and it was even more challenging to you know to show the comps And but if you look at the building now it's worth so much more than you know then then we sold it for I think I think it's worth at least $200,000 more if I'm not mistaken I think so yeah somewhere somewhere around there when you see it now it makes me you know I'm happy for the guy the bottom because he believe in he believe in the area he believe in the project and prove my my theory right so you know It's kind of nice to see that change I feel like with real estate as long as you give it enough time unless you're incredibly unlucky time will always save you Even if at the time you buy something maybe you overpay a little bit maybe they got lucky on the rent and the rents are a little above market It might look bad today but as long as you can keep it three years five years seven years suddenly it's gonna look a lot better You know you're gonna have equity there the rents are gonna go up so you just have to give everything in real estate you gotta have that same long term time horizon that you're talking about Oh I believe that a hundred percent I mean if I look at the properties that I own back in 2003 and I always play this in my head which is terrible I always say man if I could hold to the property today I would have you worked like millions you know like I would have made so much money If you can weather the storm regardless of whether you buy at the peak and a lot of people say oh well I buy it when it was expensive But if you just hold long enough You're fine. It's just you gotta be strategic of make sure you can Tax plan appropriately and you can cash for it and at the end you see will come up come ahead and I see it all over and over again I mean I look at projects that I didn't 2003 2004 and I look at myself like man those words some cheap units like you know It would love to keep everything you know everything that I ever built it would have been great to keep you know It would have been would have been awesome but relative to the matter is that times change right so and then everybody changes and the values continue to climb Even if you look at the recession eventually they go back up. You just got a hold enough. It was crazy I just saw the condo I saw a condo for a lady who bought it I remember she bought it just before The 2008 2009 crash and then she was like all the people she knew that brought around their her friends were like Just give it back to the bank and walk away. You know you're under water on it. She's like I don't really want to do that She lived there for a few years and then I think about six or seven years later I sold it she made she made nice amount of money And they say so that was the biggest real estate correction I think in a century or something crazy It was a huge correction and on average it only took four and a half years for think the prices to equal where they were at the peak So as long as it doesn't matter it's kind of like that. There was a great statistic on If you're buying if you're investing in the stock market and you always keep buying the peak Basically the worst time to buy over a certain amount of years. You're still way ahead than if you try to time the market And I felt like it's the same with real estate. You know, there's obviously better times and worst times to buy it But as long as you give it time when you're buying the right property, it's always going to do well. Yeah, I mean like you say you got to be extremely lucky to hold a property for You know 15 20 years and say you know you lost terribly. I mean, you know I'm not saying it'll say happy and don't happen But it's you know, it's not very it's not very common. I've been lucky enough to hold enough some properties and you know you see a nice return and that's what keeps you moving ahead. It's keeps the motivation going. So just let me ask you so your business model a lot of the buildings I'm selling are very similar three unit buildings which is standard for standard size Chicago lots. There are three choose so nine bedrooms six bars for the building there for me that's kind of the sweet spot. I feel like the money works for everybody works for the end buyer the investor or if it's an Unlock when it works for them the numbers work for you is is the plan to stay with that like why change your winning formula or do you want to do different challenges where you're trying to do bigger projects. Remember we were talking to my friend Tony potentially about partnering with him on that one deal and he was telling me how complicated it was going to be with that's a thing was still beams everything it wasn't what you're normal used to do enjoy doing the same same tried and tested winning formula or do you want to do some other things down the road to I think I think I want to change things around a little bit right now. I always love the three twos I think three twos gives you so much more. For any investors is buying a house or a multi unit building right if you buy a three two that three two opens so many options you can either have roommates you can have and make one woman an office you can you know just got married have a kid is still having office or you have your in less coming to stay for a week and you need an extra bedroom so that extra you know a lot of people like two twos I like three twos because that extra bedroom those open many many many different different options. Right is your bigger pool to get ten from yeah yeah and and the tennis also suffer less right if somebody's in you know you got two roommates you know they can get a third roommate and now you know you rent is a little bit lighter so it just opens to a lot of other things I think I want to explore the idea of doing a larger project with smaller units so I think there's a really big market coming up on smaller units so more of a micro yeah. Yeah very like you know trying the type of units right like modern cabinets modern bathrooms same thing Washington dryer but make some fun to be a one bedroom yeah to bedrooms so I want to do I want to do a project of of ones twos and trees and I think there's a huge market for those ones and twos opening out yeah the numbers are up if you don't want to roommate and you just want to live by yourself but you want a nice apartment there's not not really that imagery. It doesn't really exist, right? - Right, it's really, really, really small. So there's a lot of twos, twos. And there's a lot of threed twos. Now there's a little bit more. But there's not a lot of one ones or studios. I think studios have a lot of the have kinda die down or you find those are like in really all buildings. You know, like overly, you know, a lot of people don't want those. They're really old outdated buildings. So I like to do a project with one, one, two, two, or maybe some studios. I think I am exploring that. - What about, I'm sure you've driven past it. I think it's on 16th or 18th. There's that new, it was built about five years ago. It's five stories. Do you know that building? - On Ashland. - It just, no, it's on either 16th or 18th, right? Yeah, maybe on Ashland, just past. It's, you must notice it because it's way higher than anything else. And it's five stories. - Do you have you driven past that one? - What's the other? - In the session. - What I don't understand is it seems like I was actually listing, I was gonna sell it. And then just when I remember we're doing showings right during COVID because everyone was scared to touch, touch people. They were sanitizing everything. I just remember that we listed it for sellers of building. And then I think he ended up canceling, I don't know if they're able to kept it, but it was a Russian developer. And he had done on a standard size lot. He had done five simplex units. And I'm like, how did he, how could he get that approval? 'Cause like it must've been way over the standard that's allowed on a standard size city lot. 'Cause they were really narrow units. So it wasn't the most livable, but if you could do on a standard size lot, typically it's three. How would he have the, is it the FAR, the. - The right Sony were closer to the train track where you can get away with it. It all depends on the Sony. You can have Sony a lot if it's closer to the train. They changed a lot the rules on the Sony and parking, but before you were really limited with parking. - Yeah, that's the same thing. 'Cause they changed the. - You only have three spots in the back, like a parking pad. I don't know how we got approved on that. I'm just wasn't sure if you had any ideas. - So no, those are great. I think there's a huge market coming up for those buildings, but those are smaller units. I did a building years ago on the splans and right off 18th Street. And it was standard building. Well, we did four units that were front to back units on an older building. And each unit was probably 700 square feet between 615 and 700 square feet. And we managed to put two bedrooms on each and he sold quick. And it all was. We had a lot of people play for those units. - 'Cause they're not unusual. - Well, they're very affordable. - Yeah, for that sort of thing, a affordable, nice, but smaller, so affordable. - So I think a lot of people are really now leaning towards having an affordable unit. But you wanna make a modern, you wanna make it look nice, you know, very appealing. And I think people will take it. - So one thing about, I've said this so many times, apologies people that have heard me say this 10 times or more, but one of my favorite quotes is from Storren Kikigard. And he wrote in his journal, "Life has to be lived forward." and you can only be understood when we look back. So when I look back, I always think I work with so many investors from all over the country, East Coast, West Coast, Texas, you know, all over, and local investors too. And they're all buying here because we have in the Midwest very high cap rates compared to the rest of the country. And I think about how lucky it was that I just happened to be here, happened to get in real estate with a passion for investors and a background in finance in a market where everyone from around the country is buying here. So even though as a on the development side for you, it's probably not the easiest climate to build here. I think they say, I don't know you're a Florida now. You're based in Florida, but I know in Texas, you can get permits really quickly. In Illinois, the process is a bit more convoluted. I'd imagine Florida's probably a little bit easier. But don't it's kind of I guess it's kind of surprising to me that given the difficulties, the city doesn't make it easy for you to get everything ready to build, but it's still the numbers seem like it works perfectly where you can make money, but also the end buyer can make money with the returns. That makes sense. Yeah. I mean, when it comes to permitting, the city show has gotten difficult, but in a way, I mean, I kind of work all over the place. In Florida is difficult to get permits to and you have impact fees. So you have all the other fees that nobody talks about. The impact fees in Florida are a big deal, right? Moving a tree, especially in the Tampa Bay area, it depends on type of tree, the thickness of the tree, the height of the tree. Some of those trees you cannot tear down or you've got to pay a lot of money. If there's turtles on the land, you've got to pay like 5,000 per turtle just to relocate him. I mean, it's crazy. So those are all the fees and all the things that you don't think about, right? All in all, I have done stuff in Texas. I have done stuff kind of all over the place. Texas is not bad. It's pretty easy to get permits. Chicago is challenging, but all in all, I guess, it's manageable only because I've been doing it for a sold-home. To me, like, well, you know, it's kind of expected, right? So if you already know all the stuff that is going to haul you back, and you are a little bit more proactive towards it, you know, it's still a good place to be. And I still like the Chicago market. I love the Chicago market. I mean, obviously, I'm heavily invested. I got enough stuff to build, but I think still a very strong place to be. I really like the Chicago market. It's still pretty strong. I remember when I met you a few months ago, and you were telling me that a bunch of gang members came up and cleaned out one of your job sites and stole your tools. And I was thinking my head on a couple of thousand and you were like, no, it's like 15,000 dollars of tools they stole. That is so crazy. He happened in the broad light. They like it two o'clock in the afternoon and they robbed the car. They took all the carpenters' tools from a job right on his pills. And I mean, this is not good area. It's a good area. And they just wiped them clean. I mean, took everything. I don't, I can't believe it. They did it twice in like six months. That's crazy. So is that covered by your insurance? So how do you know? No, I mean, is either covered by the subcontractors insurance or they're just, they're just, they're just eating out of the lost. Yeah. Cheese. Yeah. It's it's brutal. And that's one of the biggest hurdles here is that there's a lot of insecurity. I know a lot of my contractors, they've been holding on point. They've been all kinds of stuff. Story after story after story is sad. It's really sad. But I also feel bad. I mean, you know, the cops can only do so much. You know, they're they're under pressure from so many angles, man. Yeah, they don't have much support. No, it's it's it's awful, man. I feel bad for all those guys, man. There's obviously there's a lot of people they're not, you know, taking the job serious, but there's a lot of people that take their job really serious, you know, and it's just, you know, some lose for all, but you know, I feel bad for them. They're tough, tough spot to be in. Yeah. Yeah. The one thing about the thing that I find really interesting is that there's a few issues that people are very divided on. And I feel like for me, anytime politically an issue becomes very divided, it tends to mean that it's a lot more subtle and complicated. It's not like a simple issue, otherwise, there wouldn't be so much division about it. So the hatred towards ice is so interesting because I've seen both sides of it. When you come here legally, and if people knew the 19 years of headaches that I had, the stress that I had, the money I paid to come here to become a naturalized citizen, the right way, it was very challenging. So when I hear people that are pro people just walking across the border, I don't like that. I think we're a nation of laws and you should stick to the laws. But having said that, you hear these stories about, you know, job sites getting raided by these ice agents. And it's like, man, you're getting some, someone that came here 15 years ago. Yeah, they should have got their papers, but they didn't, you know, English is their second language. It is what it is, but they've been contributing to society, pain, taxes, raising a family. They've been here for many years. And then because of the hysteria the last four years, having this open border, they get caught up in it. And suddenly, they're working on the job site and they, you know, ice carbon and take them. And my heart really goes out to them because I think, man, that's that kind of sucks. That's that's not what you need. You're going off to work and class people that are contributing to society, make in Chicago a better place. They're the wrong kind of people. So it's just it's such a, that's another thing that I know you've been dealing with with in construction. A lot of these people that have been here so many years, but they just never really got their papers. And that sucks that they're caught up in this. So that's that's an issue that I do see both sides of it. You know, it's a very complicated issue. And there's no right or answer. But for the way I look at it, the things that we're doing in the projects, it sucks. Oh, yeah. And it's such a complex, such a complex topic because people think you just come here legally and, you know, you don't know the situation of the other person, right? And, and all the people are like, oh, well, they're taking jobs, but it's very complex and I, and I, is really sad that it's very divided whether whatever believe, you know, nobody can just agree to disagree. Yeah, exactly. And everybody's like, oh, well, you know, if you don't believe these, then, you know, we're not friends anymore. And we're, you know, we're done. And as really, really sad, but one thing I will say is, I'm an immigrant, right? So, you know, I guess just like you, I'm a little bit biased. What is really sad is that you're taking a hard working class out of the equation. And some of these people, as an employer, I cannot ask them whether like the, the, the, the, the set of things if they provided an idea and a social security, that's where you have that's what I have. And whether it's illegal or not, that's, it's not up to me, right? Yeah. But then when you see these people that be working here for many years and they have family that don't get in trouble, they don't have any issues. And they can pull away from the job site and get thrown out. After they meet here for 15, 17 years, 20 years, you know, that's sad. I mean, you, you're not only breaking a family apart, but you also putting the guy in a position where, where's he going? Yeah. You know, this is, this is his home. He's been paying taxes. He's been, you know, a good citizen. He's not, he's not breaking the law. Now, if you take into the criminal's out, well, I mean, it's what it is, right? That's a different story. But when you're going to the job site and you're taking people they're working day on and on every day, that's just, just, just wrong. It's just morally wrong in my opinion. But you know, it's, it's, it's very, very complex. I think it's more complicated. The politics get, get to involve on it. So when you came here, obviously it was a different time. Was it easy for you to become a naturalized? Because your family was here. How did that, how was that process? I was very, very fortunate because my brother was, well, my, my dad had been coming here for many years and he was a bit of a settle. So he worked, you know, in the steel mills years ago and they, they have an amnesty. Oh, okay. So then I got, they applied for me and I came here when I, arrested, I had a residency. Then after five years or so, then I became a citizen. But I was very fortunate to have that. Yeah. You know, not a lot of people have that fortunate, you know, they're not, they're lucky. That does one thing. So if you look at almost anyone that's successful and they worked hard for their success, they're going to generally feel at the bottom of their heart that like I'm successful because I worked hard. But they're almost never going to realize or appreciate the luck that it took to get them to get there. And I think about me when I came here, I had a company that sent me here from London and they had like an immigration team. And then when I left and I set up my own company and I was doing the immigration thing through myself, I had the knowledge, the connections, the money to pay for a really good immigration attorney. And so I contrast that with someone you coming from Central America, South America, you don't have all those advantages. So it's not that it's so those people say, hey, someone's been here 20 years, why haven't they just taken the steps to get their citizenship? It's like, well, they didn't really come here with all the advantages that I did and I'd knew all the steps. They were just like, I'm here. I'm going to make the best of it. I'm going to work hard and sort of family. So I definitely, the older I get, the more appreciation that I have for things like that where it's way too easy to give us credit for the things that we do that we can control like I work ethic. But it's easy to forget about all the people that helped you along the way, all the fortuitous events that lined up to get to where you are. Yeah. It's definitely, it's definitely a blessing to be on the position you wear because you have the means, you have the knowledge, which is, I mean, just the knowledge alone is so powerful. The knowledge is probably the most powerful. And then you have the means, right? Some of these people don't have the knowledge. They don't, they don't have anybody to tell them, hey, you know, this is where you can do, this is what you can do, this is, these are the steps you got to take. They just don't have that. And that's a huge advantage. You know, the means, you know, you can always figure out what to pay for it, right? Whether you borrow money, whether you work and put money aside, things of the nature. But just on the knowledge side alone, he's such a huge advantage, man. I mean, you're ahead of everybody. And then think about us, think about the network that you have, how many lots you get where they never hit the market, you just say, hey, you know, I got this guy, I know he's going to sell the lot. Like you built such a good network. And I think about how to have meeting at my company and some with all the top agents. And they were saying, how do a bunch of people say, I'm just a lucky, you call all these developers and these listings. And I was like, I am really lucky. And it's it's come from relationships, thankful to you. And it's, yeah, I consider myself, I consider myself very lucky to have the network that I have. So I feel like in real estate and development and so many things, it really is. It's not about what you know as much as almost who you know, you know, if you know the right people. Well, I will say one thing. I have dealt with a lot of brokers. And when I see, when I met you, obviously I had my own my own license and you know, I had my own broker company as well. And you know what? It's not always luck. You know, on your on your on your side, I will say you're always been working. You always been responsive. You always handle matters. And as it to myself, you know what? Why am I doing this? Let me let me let somebody who's actually working hard. And one thing I always appreciate about you, you always got on the ball. If that was an issue, you jump on it and let's figure out where to get it resolved not to make the issue greater, but just get to the bottom of it, right? So in that end, I wouldn't say it's always like I think you bring a lot of hard work. I think you know, obviously you're good at connecting with people as well. But it's not just pure luck. I would say, you know, it takes, it takes work to you. It's that combination. Yeah. So I say, you know, that's why you, you know, every development I do, it goes through you because, you know, you're good at what you do. You're answered the phone when I call whether you invocation or not, you respond. You get, you know, if there's an issue, one way or another gets handled. So, so no, I'm actually very, very likely to have you. So so that's why I say, you don't want. Let Lawrence. That's what he does best. Yeah, it's crazy. When we met, I remember you had your license and you were representing yourself. And then you, you said, you know, nine, nine percent of broke, because I really don't like, but I like you. Do you want to represent me? And I remember feeling guilty. I'm like, you put us there. So nice. These buildings are going to sell themselves. I felt bad. But I was like, okay, you don't mind. Yeah. But you know what? He also, he gives respect for the profession, right? So I respect your profession as a broker, even though I'm a licensed broker and things of the nature, you know, my time is very, is best vested in what I do best. Yes. What I do best is putting the land together and build a building. So I rather do that devote my time to what I know how to do best and let you do what you do best. So, you know, the way I see it is you want to grow as a team. You know, just, you know, there's no point of of growing if your team don't grow with you. Right. That's such a good point. Can you talk a little bit about until I met you, I didn't even know this was a thing, but about buying lots from tax deeds. Now, so I've been buying tax certs for years. And I trade those two. So I buy in my cell. I keep some. So how does that work? So basically the county will do a sale and there's, you know, there's some of the sale discounts, they sell a dollar per dollar. So basically, it's people that don't pay their taxes. You come in there, you buy the taxes and you step on the shoes of the county. So if the price, whatever the delinquent taxes, that's the price or is it a set price? If you're a some of our dollar per dollar, some are a little bit more, they do an auction and it's open to anybody who registers and goes to it. And some of our dollar per dollar, I like to go, I like to buy land. So I don't, I don't buy like houses, I don't buy multi-unit buildings. I go strictly for land. Oh, you can buy, I didn't even know that was a thing. You can buy buildings to check out. You can buy anything in anybody who doesn't pay taxes, whether it's a house, it could be a parking spot on a high rice. I mean, I have bought those two before. So I, you know, it's all kind of stuff, but I bought those before, but I don't like those. I like the land. I think the land. Because then you can develop it. Or sell it. Right. And I think it's just less people after those. And it's more part of my strategy as well, right? So you buy those and then after three years, if they don't redeem you, they don't, they got, they got three years to redeem you. So they can pay you off. They don't pay you off. Then you go to a process of a foreclosure. And you know, you got to send a bunch of notices. You got, you know, but you got to have, you got to have long, that's a long process. It's a long process. Oh, 100% long process. Let's go back to that strategy, the long-term strategy. That's part of the five-year strategy. So that's why I have my different strategies. And, you know, that's how I plan out my real estate. So a lot of them are long-term plays in this part of the place. And some of them take three to five years to get. But they're not, they don't overnight. You can buy tax certs and then foreclose on them sooner, but you're going to buy it from somebody else. And then you're going to pay more money on top of the face value. Right. Yeah. Those are, those are, they're very good business, but you're going to have a very good, very good attorneys. You've got to follow everything to the T. It's a little complex. One thing I'm going to be telling me is, you said the most important thing about real estate is tax strategies. And it's funny because when I was selling buildings three, four, five years ago, when rates were so much lower, most of the time I would be talking and investors would be thinking about just pure cash flow. And then as soon as rates started going up and some of these buildings, you can put 25% down. And when you pay all the expenses, you're basically breaking even. And now it's become a big thing where people talk about tax savings, doing a cost segregation analysis where you can front load the tax savings. But can you talk a little bit about when you, when you realized the benefits of taxes? Because I feel like taxes is something that it's almost like the secret of the Uber wealthy where they make millions and millions. And most of them pay almost no tax because they have a really good accountant who knows the tax code and could play the game. And it's the people, the kind of the newer rich that maybe you're doing a job and suddenly you get some promotions and now you're paying these huge tax bills and you just don't know any better. And I think the idea of just the tax strategy is it's so interesting. Right. So I'm a big fan of tax planning. I think tax plan is one of the most important things of real estate. If you don't have your tax plan laid out before you get into real estate, all your profits are going to get eaten away. I mean, all your money is going to go away and you're going to pay 30% on taxes and that's just that's that's not the goal. If you want to create wealth for, you know, like I look at my kids and I hope my kids one day take over the business. But part of it has to be tax planning, right? So that's why you got to buy some stuff and hold it and play the long term goal. Right. So you play the five year strategy and so all these lots are like I'll buy a lot, right? And I'll develop it and then I'll buy all the land and as I'm losing money on the land essentially, right? Because I'm paying property taxes. I'm paying by laced it from the city. There's a lot of stuff that is it is cost a lot of money. Yeah. That's basically negative cash for it. Right. We just need to catch while you're losing money. And then you keep some of the buildings and you just, you know, you pay depreciation. So number one is you got to get an account. You got to know what you want, you know, what do you have and what do you want? So if you want to keep rentals, then you got to plan it out and talk to your account and make sure he knows what your plan is and how you're going to divert the money, right? And if you're going to develop, well, also you got to plan out, you know, how much you can develop. You just develop one property. If you keep it, it's great. But if you're going to sell it, you got to think about, I'm going to pay capital gain taxes, right? So that's where you really got to be smart. How do you how do you plan your taxes? And I think a lot of people made the mistake of going into real estate without thinking about tax plan. They don't do tax planning. Tax planning is just a huge, huge part of a real estate. To me, it's one of the most important things about real estate. I have been like, what's most important thing about real estate? And everybody says like, you know, makes you shoot a building cash rolls and things of the nature. I say, well, you're forgetting the huge part tax planning. Because if you say you have a building that's cash flowing, positive cash flow, 1500 a month, that's 18,000 a year. It's easy to see that because you can see it every month. But if you can have a $50,000 tax saving, you don't see it. It's not money you're getting, but it's way better than getting 18,000 income. So it's a, it's a, it's a reading. I'm really glad that you emphasized that with me because now it's the main, my main sales pitch when in a rate to coming back down, which is nice. But when they were at the peak, I was still selling these buildings. And that was one of the appeal. It was two things. One, if a lot of people now, I think a third of all purchases in 2025 were cash purchases. But when interest rates were really low, it was probably 5%, it's something tiny. But if people have all these cash to sit in there, they can either go into a speculative asset like crypto bitcoin or crypto, the S&P, that can go up. It can go down, or they can put it in a stable asset where they know it's going to at least if it doesn't go up, it's not really going to go down. So there's those buyers. And then there's the buyers for the pure cash benefit, tax benefits. And I think that, but that is so, especially when you, when you don't grow up here. So I grew up in England with a different tax code. For the foot for years, I didn't even want to think about taxes. I'm just like, I don't know. I think about US taxes might let my account and do it. But it's, if you're going to spend some time as you get a bit older and a bit more income, if you're going to spend any time to invest in learning something, it should be either just trusting a really good account, who's going to do the right right off for you. Or like you said, having some kind of tax strategy for your income. Oh, yeah. I, I, I, I see people that buy buildings and they don't make any money. They're literally zero out or they're negative at the end of the year. And their whole idea is they don't care about the income. They just want the right off. Yeah. And but this you want to have an asset. So same way, you know, if you look at the dollar, the dollar has been losing value, right? Well, these people are smart enough. say, "Hey, I know my dollar is going to lose some value. Let me buy some real estate. It's going to haul its value. The lease is not going to offset whether the dollar is strong or not, is going to offset that money." To me, that's one of the most important things is tax planning. George, so when you were working with your family, when you first mootie and paving, how long and how hard was it to go from that to building and selling your first building? I mean, it was really difficult. I end up in real estate, my whole family is in paving, so I didn't want to do paving. I only can offer if I still do it. But I is a seasonal job. So one of my clients was a developer, and they offered me a job during the winter, going around the buildings and making sure the contracts were showing up and things of the nature. That's how I started a real estate. So it's not that I went to real estate right away. I took data as a part-time job when I was going to college, and I was not working with my brothers doing asphalt. I got into real estate working for a developer. That's how I got my foot in the door. And I started doing a lot of lessons with that on that time. So I started doing new construction. So all my real estate I ever done is new construction. I never did rehabs until like 2009, 2010, when the economy went down. So I got out of there real quick. That's not my thing. But I felt like the hardest-- say someone really wanted getting to development. Aside from-- they can always find people and get recommendations or maybe find a good GC. The GC is going to have different subcontractors. But for me, the hardest thing from the outside looking in is going to be the money. This very cash intensive. And a lot of people, if they go the hard money route, with this-- when you're paying 18%, if you start to have delays and you have slim profit margins, suddenly you're going to lose all your profit. So how did you get the money together, I guess, for your first development? Well, back then, it was easier to get along. So I had a condo and I did a cross-coil lateral. Oh, good. So I got a little bit of finance through that. And that's how I got into the deal. And I had cash. I had to put a borrow money from my family and friends. And I think I borrow even I guess my credit card. So it's just to get into one project. I was probably the best way to get into real estate development is partner up with somebody who does that already. And just kind of learn the ropes. You're going to give up some of the profit, but you learn the ropes. So that's probably the best way to do it. Because the cash-- it just consumes a lot of cash. It takes a long time. It takes a long time to build a network of subs. And then getting the right general contractor is very difficult. And one project, if you're paying 12% to 18% on interest with a hard money lender, then money is going to go out quick. The hard money lender is making the money. Now you-- I hear this story so often from so many different people over the years. And they do a project. And they end up sometimes on the broker selling them a project that they lost money on. But the reason is is because they had either one or two GCs or big time subcontractors who screwed them over. Is construction just an industry with a lot of shady people? Is it that-- why do I hear that story so much, George? Well, there's a lot of transit. There's a lot of really bad people out there in doing construction. And there's one issue here in Chicago that I'll flat out say, I got my general contractor license in Florida. And I'm general contractor license like eight states throughout the United States. And one thing-- when I started doing my general contracting in Florida, which I know has a reputation of a contractor's too, but they actually make you take a very long test. I remember you said it was-- First, you got to work for somebody. And then you got to take a really lengthy test. I took four tests, I think. And I didn't pass the first or the second time. So it took me several times of trying in order to make it work. But I was like, I mean, a general contractor for 20 years, the city of Chicago, how can this be possible? And I build so many buildings from the ground up. Exactly. But you know what really taught me is that there's nothing wrong with going to school and learning. Like, you should really learn some of the basics. And what happens here in Chicago, if you have insurance, all you need is an insurance certificate and you get your general contractor license. So there's no-- you don't have to take any very particular test of anything. In Florida, you got to take a test. If you want to be a general contractor, you got to take roofing, framing, high velocity winds, and all sorts of stuff, concrete, and the density of all the basic stuff of construction for ground up construction. And here they don't offer it. So I actually really admire that about all their states that are required that because it really makes people think twice before they do something. And here they don't. So that's why you hear a lot of people. There's a lot of unexperienced general contractors. They're general contractors. They're license general contractors. Don't give me wrong. But that doesn't mean they know what they're doing. You know, there are a lot of guys that just they get into a project. The thing is going to be easy. And then the general contractor is still the money or doesn't know what he's doing or hires the wrong sub. And then all next thing, you know, you're left with a job. Have we done? And so you've been doing this so long. You have such good relationships. But do you still have subs that you have to deal with in the last three years that have-- you've had people that try to rip you off or do things or right now as you've got a good network, not really? Well, I got a good network. But there's always somebody trying to take advantage. I mean, it's just human nature. Always somebody-- there's always somebody that is trying to cut a corner somewhere. And that's why you got to keep on the project. But now we're at the point where you see the guy and you're like, all right, this guy is good or this guy is not good. Or I'll make sure I'll go to the jobs where he's already working. You're a lot more cautious of who you're going to hire. But we also have a reputation, right? Where everywhere. We put up our science. We're not hiding from anybody. So they look for us. A lot of the times they look for us to give work. So that's the blessing, right? But again, it comes with years of doing this business. But there's also a lot of developers, a lot of people, that don't pay the contractors. So it's really-- It's both ways. Yeah, it goes both ways. So some of these guys are tough positions, too. I made a lot of really good subs that other general contractors or other developers don't pay them. And they're bitter. And now they got to stay still from Peter to pay Paul. Exactly, yeah. That's a trickle-down effect. It's a big problem. But we're lucky enough. We tried to really pay attention to who we hire. And we worked with the same people. The Brick layer did my first house in 2004, 2003. It's a Brick layer that is in my business today. That's amazing. It's just about relationships. And I like to keep the same people around. One of my favorite things about entrepreneurs is that you're never tied to a particular thing. You're always branched off. And one thing I'm noticing to you-- I don't know when it was maybe a year ago-- you're suddenly-- you're flying to the Oklahoma. You're flying to Ohio. You're flying to these states and you're doing this massive paving. How did that happen from-- you have a lot going on. You're building your buildings in Chicago. You've got a tamper. You're doing some projects in Florida. You've got enough going on. And then suddenly, you're going to a random state doing this huge project. I'm sure you didn't know the network. I just-- I can't understand number one. How you even got into that. But also, like if I was there, and I had to be an Oklahoma and that's a huge project, how would I even find the people? I don't know anyway. I don't have a network there. I'm so impressed that you've been doing that with some of the-- they're absolutely massive projects. Can you talk a little bit about how that started? And how you go about figuring out who to use for these projects? Yeah. So I've been in the payment industry for many years. And I've been very slowly launching this Paving Company. It's a nationwide Paving Company. We've been very blessed. Over the last six, seven years, I've been doing a lot of work across the United States. But over the last two years, three years, it has really taken off. So we're doing a lot of work. Last year, in October and November, we did over 2 million thousand square feet of asphalt. So it was a lot of work. And we did that across three different states. We did a lot of work between Oklahoma and all taxes. We hit all the big cities from Houston, San Antonio, Dallas. And we're doing some work in Louisiana and New Orleans. So you know what? It's actually quite fascinating. I love it. I love going to different cities, meeting with different contractors. And we interview a lot of people. It takes-- we interview with six, seven different people, but we only do large-scale parking lots. So these parking lots, you're dealing with a different type of demographic of pavers, because they're either on asphalt plans, or they're-- we don't do any parking lot that is less than 200,000 square feet. So-- So it's going to be bigger companies. It's bigger companies. But I'm a small business guy. So I'm always rooting for the smaller guys. But you don't always pay it out that way. But yeah, we do work anywhere from Texas, all the way to Minneapolis. I mean, we're done a lot of work. It's being very, very good because we get the privilege to meet with a lot of really good people. They're really hardworking people. A lot of these people are-- we're similar in a way, because they started their business from the ground up. And it's very, very impressive how these people are. And we kind of come together, and we do these big jobs. And we go through a lot of headaches of getting the right contractor. [BLANK_AUDIO] once we did the job, like, you know, everybody's calling right after the job is out. Hey, when, why don't we do the next job? You know, it's like, uh, but how are you finding the clients or how are these clients in different states that need these big projects? How are they finding you? They, so it's world of mouth. I mean, people just look for me. There's, there's a, there's a need for, for, I guess, good papers. Good papers out there. So it's just world of mouth. We don't advertise. We only started advertising over the last few months, three, four months prior to that. We never advertise anything. It's just people call me say, I hear you don't park, you know, paving for so and so can, can you help me out? And these are larger companies that own parking lots across the United States and is such a, such a big industry, but it's very small. You know, you like, you kind of know who, who the players are on the paving industry. It's completely different than, than general contracting, but it kind of goes in a hand, right? You got to read the guys. You got to know, you know, who's a guy that is trying to pull a fast one on you, you know, right away. You, you know, you take some of the experiences you dealt with over the last, you know, 20 something years. So it can't, it's up contractors. What can you tell us how, how can you use, because I wouldn't be the tell, well, maybe I could, but I wouldn't imagine how can you tell when you're interfering these people, if they're trying to pull the wool over their eyes and they're shady? Can you tell, like, is it on your field? You just have a good feeling for people or you're asking real specific questions. They're like, these, what are, what they're saying doesn't add up. Like how are you finding that out? I usually go there and pretend I don't know what I'm doing. So I like, can you just walk me through the job site? You know, walk me through the job. How, you know, because this, this jobs require a lot of transportation, right? So the logistics, if they have the logistics figure out of the job site, they're, they're, they're good guys. You also got to know what type of equipment they got. If they got the big million machines, they got, uh, as well plants and what relationships they got, right? And then you kind of back that against the same as well plants, what we'll call the as well plants, where a lot of times we hire the as well plant, just to kind of verify who they are. If they walk you, all these are kind of the same. If they don't walk you through the logistics on that alone, step by step, then they're like, you know, like you can't, you can pull off a job with that many trucks, you know, going in and out of a parking lot, you know, if they don't got that together, they don't, they don't got the job because they don't, they don't have the experience. And right away, you know when somebody has experience, right? I'll tell you, okay, we're going to line up the meal machine at this time. We have X amount of trucks coming in and when dissipate to meal X amount of tons per hour, and we're going to hold so many tons per hour and, you know, they'll tell you exactly how far the as full plant is, right? Or the recycle plant and it will tell you what the turnaround is on that truck. So, you know, once you start hearing that, I like it. Right. This guy is good. This guy knows. And there's other guys, you know, they don't really know. They just, you know, they try to get their way through, but you know that they're lying. You know, like, yeah, these guys, he's, he doesn't have the experience. And a lot of times it's just, you know, they don't have, if they don't have experience, we can't work with them. You know, you cannot jeopardize, you know, doing 500,000 square feet in, you got 10, 12 days to do it. You got to work seven days a week and he's like seven days on. And then we got to work with the as full plant, make sure they open on Sunday, you know, but none of the as full plants are open on Sunday and we managed to keep them open on Sundays. So we bring, we bring value, you know, volume and value. So the client is happy with, we knocked these, these jobs, you know, quick, but it's, uh, it's really exciting. That's doing work kind of cross United States is fun. I'm just sorry, press. I remember when you first started going like, oh, I mean, you know, you've called me like, I'm in this random state during this huge project. I'm like, that's so cool. I just, I love that about you that you're always looking to grow and figure stuff out. Well, we're like in Chicago. Do you have thoughts and you're such a long term thinker? Do you have thoughts on some different areas that you're high on? So for instance, I just was having a conversation today with somebody about, Pilsen has got really expensive. Everything kind of went west. So you went, you go into East all village and then you keep the boundaries of people like investors like, I don't want to go past Western and they say, I don't want to go past California. Then they said, I don't want to go past Kedzie that the boundaries keep spreading as the areas move. Do you have some thoughts on, on where you'll be in three years in five years and seven years in different areas? Or do you not think like that? No, I do. I do it. You really want my secret sauce? You want the recipe? You know what? I think the next, the next neighborhood that is going to blow up big time and I hope this doesn't come back to bite me. But I think it's full of park. Full of park, I find it to be a very, very interesting neighborhood. I think it's very under, value and underserved. But if you look at how close it is to the highway, so full of park is like 4,300 south when worth, right? So it's right off the highway. Just west of the highway. Is it just south of the Sox stadium? Just south of the Sox stadium and east of Hosted. So a full of park is a very, very small neighborhood and it kind of runs along the tracks and I think that neighborhood is very, so you get that train station. You get the Sox park, which I don't really bank too much in the Sox park, other than being like, you know, a major baseball field. But you got transportation, you got ITT, you got the highway, which gets you, you know, you be downtown from there in seven minutes. Yeah, you're full of south to south. That's so close. Yeah. You're 4,300 south. That's really, really close. Everybody's going towards like high park. I think that area is great and woodland and phenomenal areas. But you're paying a really, really high value. And you just go one mile west. That area is just booming. You know, mile, you know, just on the other side of the highway. So for me, one mile east. Right. East towards Sox. Yeah, if you go towards, but if you're, you're in woodland. Oh, yes. Right. Yeah. However, you look at it. But yes, there's like one to two miles apart. Yeah. Right. If you look at the camps, a mile away from, let's say, 4,300 south, Princeton. If you go one mile east, yeah, three units selling for 1.2 million or something. Exactly. I mean, that's just such a huge spread, right? And you can buy land over there for, you know, 40, 50,000 a lot. So I think that's the next big upcoming area. There's a lot, a lot of aching land. So that with all of aching loss, I had this random thought the other day, George. I thought, I thought, I thought, I have such a good thing working with you and a couple of the guys and we've been doing some projects and development projects, which is so fun. But you're always relying on vacant lots. And I'm thinking, how many years can we do this? Like, is there enough vacant lots in Chicago to be doing this for 10, 15, 20 years? Or eventually, like around Pilsen area, there's almost no lots, right? It's pretty much all developed. There's not many. I know you're still picking up occasionally, picking them up. But do you think you can be doing this fee? You know, there's always going to be lots. There's so many lots in the city that, you know, even with you with all the other developers working that you'll always be able to find lots. So do you think this does have a limited timeline? No, I think there's always going to be somebody who's looking for an apartment who's always going to be looking for a house. And I think Chicago has a lot of value. We have the Lake Michigan, one of the largest bodies of fresh water. We have such a major hub when it comes to school, universities, hospitals. I mean, it's just such a big city and very well diverse that I think there's a lot of more growth coming to Chicago. I think there's a lot of value. If you look at like Anglewood, you know, years ago, nobody wanted to go Anglewood. Anglewood is one of the fastest growing Spanish neighborhoods. I mean, there's the amount of Spanish families that are moving to Anglewood. It's crazy. It's crazy. It's an heard of. I would never guess that. And, you know, I think there's always going to be a need. And if you build something that is sustainable, it's nice. And you make it affordable to people. People will always move there. So that's my goal. I always want to build something that is going to be, I call it the cash cow. So you want to build a good building, right? You want to build it comfortable for the people that are going to leave there. You want to limit how much much work is going to take as a landlord to own the building, to maintain the building, and be able to cash row it. But also give a unit to somebody of need, right? So to me, it's not always about building a building and getting the most money out of the building. Obviously, we got to make a living, right? But I also, I'm a big believer on having providing a decent place for people to leave at an affordable price. And even though the price are going up, people also need to understand it. It's expensive to build. It's expensive to pay insurance. It's expensive to pay taxes, right? So it's not that we're going to get rich out of one building. If you think you're going to get rich out of one building, you know, look for something to hide. But if you provide a decent place at a affordable price and still make money, I mean, that's the best way to do it, right? So I do want to talk a little bit about the impact. We both have young kids trying to think about what our kids are going to do when the world's changing so fast with technology and with AI and everything. There's a part of me that's not really looking forward to the future with a bunch of Tesla, humanoid robots walking around and things like that. But in terms of construction, I did a check just before I came here because I wanted to ask you, I said, with a typical three unit building in Chicago, what is the appreciation in building materials year on year from last year to this year, just to see what it said? And I thought it would be more, but it said about 3%. And I was like, I don't know. Do you think costs have gone up more than 3% for you today than a year ago? I think so. So I think the if I was to guess the price on materials have increased by at least 7% 7% okay, and that's 70 10% yeah, that's that's my guess, but also we have a Huge lack of labor. Yeah, right? So then it's harder to get the place where you have to pay more sometimes for that right? So getting back to back to that immigration issue It has become Mm-hmm more challenging right to build and and is getting more expensive, but also people are you know That's why it's casting casting more it's customer money, but it's also The expense gets passed on also today and today and use it right yeah exactly So if you're say the cost is roughly 600,000 to build it's gone up say 7% that's about 40,000 I think we're gonna be selling buildings this spring in summer for 40,000 more than last summer So that makes sense. It's about the same. It's right exactly So it's not the prices Are not going up in the sense that you're making more money. It's an efficient market and you're making the same kind of profit But like you said the increase is passed on to the buyer What about in terms of just construction and the idea of you know when I met you all those years ago We were talking about when you brought your oldest son who was three and a half four at that one job site on Evans And now I'm bringing my son who's five to these job sites to see what I'm doing What do you think it's gonna be like like do you see a future where you're gonna have Humans and robots building things at the same time. I know I keep hearing about 3D printing and they can build these houses Is that something you even think about or is that too far down the road to even worth your energy? No, I'm a firm firm believer that that's gonna happen. It's just matter of time before we have robots building Anything anything is repetitive right? I'm also a big believer of 3D printers. I actually Spend a lot of time researching and I wanted to bring one to Chicago back in 2018 and I couldn't because of the unions But I wanted to do a 3D printed job here. I wanted to build houses And I think that's gonna be the future. It is gonna happen. I mean AI is moving so fast On the construction is now moving as fast, but it's just it's just matter of time, you know So the unit but that I'd imagine that's gonna be a huge battle between the trade unions and the humanoid robots, right? Because they're not gonna want to lose the oh yeah, I mean they don't want to lose it, but they still got the materials So that's that's also a huge a huge component But I do believe that it's just matter of time before before things become We're gonna have a little test like I put them breaks and stuff up, you know, it is gonna happen. How soon is that gonna be? Uh, I think within the next seven years tops Is the way is moving? I think could be sooner. I mean it is moving fairly fairly quick I think that 3D printers is a better bet But it has not catch a lot of traction in the midwest a lot We've seen that in Texas. We've seen that in like other countries But yeah, I think it's gonna is gonna make a huge huge change with Being a father of two you mentioned that you want them to take over the business So do you see something where I mean just thinking out loud laborers work a certain amount of hours You know sometimes Saturday sometimes Sunday, but you know six days a week maybe a between certain times Humanoid robots are gonna be building 24/7 right? It's gonna be pretty wild Yeah, do you see do you see that like getting integrated where you're just gonna have less people But you still need to manage them make sure they're doing everything. It's just it's such a wild thing for me to get my head around George It is it is a wild how it is wild, but I'll give you a quick story My wife and I wear for day night in St. Pete uh St. Petersburg And I was walking just done straight and out of the corner of my eye I see this arm sticking out of a wall and it's just moving around and I'm like what is it and I don't like hold on Let me see this and is it's a robot that is grabbing food and is making fries so you know, it's like in one side is making chicken iris and the like are chicken tenders and the other side is making fries And it has like three different sessions and it should make in food and I tell my well like look at that I mean the situation only had two guys The whole kitchen all I had two guys you know you got this arm making all the fried stuff to perfection because Their time and they have all the sensors. I mean, you know with the places famous for for chicken tenders The chicken is so juicy so like perfectly made right and it's not made by humans These humans either leave it leave it two three seconds extra or you know whatever So it's such a made to perfection and and like you see dead on a just a little hole in the wall It's not is that like a McDonald's anything. It's just a little mom and pop shot, you know So that arm can run 24 hours. I mean Out it's this gonna happen. It's just you know people need to get wrapped or their head around it But if you look at my bricklayer um, you know Irish guy, you know, for his first generation Irish He's closer to tire and he tells me fight out there He has nobody take over the business. His son is you know in college somewhere else his daughter is doing something else Got a couple kids. They're older. There's no young people doing construction at all Well, you grew up on a farm. I just was listening to a podcast from It was an old farmer saying that all these old farmers are coming close to you know wanting to retire and their kids don't want to run If I's too too hard work. It's too much work So I feel like this is this is kind of the solution with all these things is to Let the let the humanoid do some of the labor. Yeah, I mean it is gonna happen people don't want to work and We struggle a lot and we you know if you look at if you go to all our job sites We don't have young people. They're older people. Everybody's just older older older. There's a few young guys But they're all londard is there's nobody in their 20s doing this you know It's just too hard, you know, they don't want to do it. Yeah, you know, so you know, it's it's interesting So your oldest is nearly 10 does he talk about what he wants to do when he's older? Talk about taking over the business or not. No, yeah, he wants to be the next messy What's he he got a lot of work ahead of him He wants to do that then and a lot of competition You know, sometimes he does say he wants to take over the business, you know, he he's really planning to politics actually He really likes like the politics He wants to you know if if he has my son about Anything about like oh who's that all there's a principal the principal assistant and he knows who the mom of whatever kid is and he knows everybody As my youngest son my youngest son is he's just he's just out there. He's He's like whatever he does whatever he wants when he wants So if anybody proud but between my youngest and my oldest if they get together they'll they'll do a nice job One will be very like into politics the other guy will be really harding to doing like the hard work. So yeah My oldest likes to take easy Yeah, but kids change right then so they are today you don't know how it's gonna be tomorrow I always think with just talking out loud about you can either worry about the future being this thing that's changing so rapidly and so uncertain Or you can have confidence that whatever happens you'll adapt and you'll figure it out And I feel like that's something that I'm trying to think more of every time I'll listen to somebody Talking about something that seems scary. It's like I don't know if I'm living a world like this You just gotta keep reminding yourself and that's why I love that story about you just suddenly Doing all these massive as for jobs when you already had a thriving business here You were doing development in Florida where you moved to like you already have enough But you're always looking for outside things and I think that's such a good lesson is Yes, the futures uncertain we're living through an era especially you and I have the same age similar age I'm a lot better like where we grew through we live through the whole technology revolution And so kids today there's a figure what they call this a certain generation where they're they only have known screens Since they were two three years old. It's always been screens and it's gonna be so challenging for them But if you have the same mindset that you're always gonna figure you're gonna figure it out You don't know what it's gonna be but you know that whatever it is you're gonna figure it out Then you're gonna be okay. So I'm always reminding myself that but it is a wild time we're living through Yeah, I'm a I'm a big believer On you get to move with the economy and you get to move with the times And you know, I don't I don't like to get to cut up on on the politics All always a big part of you know being a real estate I don't like to get to cut up on it because you know some things are just More complex than it looks like right and I think um I I don't like to give an opinion when when I'm not very good at politics and other say all all the trades I have enough problem my old type of trades right so I don't like to get to involved with those I don't you know, I don't do it but I do know one thing you have to move with the economy and you have to move with the times So if the economy gets tough you definitely gotta get tougher but if build What's needed for that time with the economy right so if there's more money then you build a little bit more high-end and you know Move with what the economy has to bring on that sense and you move with the times right so if the times calls for Smaller spaces because people are more strapped they want to have their own space by themselves Then you move to smaller units you move with the time so what the new generation wants and and and provided for them And if I have an opportunity to grow the payment business You know I'll move with that economy too. I you know you shouldn't be One-sided right you shouldn't be just looking at one thing, you know nothing is just black and white You know there's so much Gray and you gotta be able to move around those times, you know, I look back like Backing to before 2008. I was doing all high-end candles, you know I was the merchandise bar buying the tile. I was buying all the high-end stuff, you know We used to call home-deep or cheap or deep. Oh, you know, like you don't go to all deep. Well, it's the cheap stuff You know, you don't want you want the high-end stuff you want, you know And then the economy crash and guess what you know home-deep will becomes your best friend You know, you just gotta move that with economy, you know, and you gotta move with the time so you can't be cut up in one thing. A lot of people are, but that's just not for me. You know what's certain thing just talking about that. Looking back now, the last two years when interest rates were higher in the real estate market cooled a little bit in Chicago, you already did a couple of projects EA, you kind of pull back. And then now this year, you're just going to be super aggressive if you have a lot going on because now the interest rates are coming down. I think it's going to be a really strong market. So you definitely expand and contract with the market. I always believe that you have to move with the market. When everybody's building and everybody's busy doing something, I try to back. I slow down a little bit. And then when everybody slows down, then I go back at it. And I think one of the main reasons I do that is because I can kind of see where death is going to go. If everybody's busy, there's going to be a lot of inventory. And if everybody's slow, there's not going to be inventory. So I'm always kind of going against a stream, kind of like a salmon. Just going upstream and see what happens. Against a stream, see what people are going to react. So a little bit different. But you know what the beauty of a real estate is that there's not right or wrong. What I do, you might not work for somebody else. And that's okay. I have a lot of friends that are in real estate. And everybody does something different. Some of my friends don't want to touch what I do. They only want to do strictly commercial. I was having dinner with a couple of people that I met in Tampa. And I met with this guy that all he does is storage facilities. Like he doesn't want to do anything else. All he does is storage facilities. And that's his bread and butter. And he's happy to do that. And then the other guy was like, oh, you know, all I do is he does a retail like, you know, Verizon stores and stuff like that. And that's all he does across the United States. So there's no right or wrong in real estate. I mean, there's a lot of wrong, but everybody can have different ideas and still make a word. That's why real estate is such a big business and such a complex because there's so many things. Exactly. Even on the brokerage side, you know, I focus on investment properties. I've got people, some people folks on luxury condos, some people focus on a geographic area. I want to be the king of this little subdivision. Yeah. It's cool. You can find your little niche. And I always get that advice to new agents that they ask me like, how do I get closer to where you are in less timeline? And I'm like, well, if you're a bit more focused on exactly what you're trying to do, I wish I had had the focus of when I, when I first got my license, like I want to meet people like you, developers, I want to focus on that. But in a roundabout way, I ended up there. But my mentor, originally when I got in the business, he was a residential broker. So of course, he's not going to steer me towards my niche because he didn't do it. So that was a, that was a really good lesson that I'm, that I'm just so grateful we met brother. I'm just a love working with you. I love the fact that we're doing some developments now. I get to get to piggyback off all the years of hard work and, and painfully acquired knowledge and new connections for that. It's just, it's really awesome. And to be able to make money, like you said, the other day when we got coffee, to be able to make money, work with people you want to be around and make an opposite difference in changing these rundown areas, making them really nice, making nice housing. Everybody is, it's, it's such a blessing and I'm so grateful. Yeah. Likewise, man. It's, it's, it's been very, I've been very fortunate to have a good team because of people like you, I've become better. So I'm glad to have you on, on my side and all the time. Awesome, Victor. Thank you so much. Victor fell asleep on us. Hey, it's Salupada. I'm sorry, I didn't mean it. I mean it, George, I'm so happy we met. Oh, I always meant.