#22. Walking into Success: Inside the Growth of Macadam - Benjamin Daudignac (Macadam)

(upbeat music) - Welcome to The Mass Appeal Podcast. We break down how to monetize and market apps that appeal to the masses. The Mass Appeal Podcast brings you top players in the mobile app economy to help you stay on top of winning app marketing and monetization trends. I'm your host Tommy, let's get started. - Hey everyone, you were tuned in to another episode of The Mass Appeal Podcast brought to you by Ab Joe. - I'm Tommy, I'm thrilled to be here as always. I have so much fun talking to all of our guests and as anyone who's listening to this podcast knows, I do tend to get really excited when I talk to people who are entrepreneurs who are starting this. It's not saying I'm excited about everyone, but I think the story of entrepreneurship, the story of being a founder, the risk you incur, the stress you take on, the reward you get, everything. It's fine, so fascinating. And today I have the wonderful privilege of being able to speak with someone who has a long history of entrepreneurship and someone who's built an incredibly successful business today. His name is Benjamin Dodin-Yach and he is the co-founder and CEO at Mockerdom. Then what's going on? Hey Tommy, you think you're very much flying me each. - I'm with you. - I can go in. - I know I've just pronounced your last name. It's Dodin-Yach, right? - Yeah, well yeah. - It's okay. I mean, I even wrote four years now, so I know the people are the same name. It's with the French accent is Dodin-Yach, but you say it's good. - Dodin-Yach, yeah. It's okay. You know what though? My last name's Yenopoulos and it's Greek and people get it wrong all the time. So I don't feel too bad because I probably share in some of your pain. - How's life? How are you doing? - Look, everything going well in Barcelona. Now it's all eight years. Walking a lot from Mockerdom on the either or so this is the, what? - I was in Barcelona in 2010 or 2011 for half a year and it is one of the most walkable cities I've ever been to. I think it's just an extraordinary place in that regard. You can get just about anywhere in the city, just on your feet. And they do have a really nice metro system in my opinion, at least compared to what we have in Boston, for example. But it's incredibly walkable. The landscape is beautiful and obviously you have all the stuff from Gaudi, like Parkwell. - I make it a really, really special place. - I can't say that you know everything about Barcelona, but yeah, this is you believe. For me, I believe Barcelona is best to do, you can find the rocks. I mean, this is that's big. So you can find work. This is very well connected to the other cities. There is like a very good mobile ecosystem here. It's a very international city. You can go to the city, you can go to the ski if you want. I just buy a one hour in Carso. - Yeah. And I always hear everybody's out doing a lot of sports. So yeah, that's amazing because the city is made so that's it. - Yeah, 100%. So what brought you to Barcelona in the first place? I know when we chat briefly before this conversation, I think you said you'd been there for eight years or so. What took you there in the first place? - Hey, yes. So no, we never really liked to raise on the resale one. And then there were no peace out of ones. But so the reason is a bit starting to be an S today. So it was like, hey, so almost nine years I said, now I was just finishing my studies. And I wanted to create my first startup companies. And with one friend, which one I wanted to create a company, our dream was to go to California. Because we were very passionate about all the Texas Texas scene in USA about Los Angeles, South Mexico, the life with Palm Tree and Texas. And the thing is we were broke as fuck. So I mean, like, so we say, okay, where we can go in a rope, it can look a bit like California. Where we can try to create a company and escape various ways of kind of lifestyle. And so we found Barcelona. So we got to decide between Barcelona and Ligzboa. It's gone. And so then we decided to come to Barcelona. I was thinking that I would just do like one year or maybe two years back soon, but in the end you start to employees and then you start to understand what is to live under the sun all the year. And then I stay there and then I it's good to create different companies. And they understand that for me, it's a very good place to be in Barcelona. Because basically I think I would network in a rope. So he in Paris, we sort of train the store and also business owners. So for me, I think now like being in Barcelona is the right choice because, okay, it's that expensive. If you want to rent a business, I think it's because you're less because when you're open, you have to pay your flat, you have to maybe take a place, you have to take a interface and everything. So it actually is a bit cheaper, but you have like so much tenant. And so I now is the time when the person in mobile industry, more size of the city, so that's why. So I arrived at the university, a bit like that, just because I wanted to have like a professional experience abroad and then I stayed for all the good reason. - Yeah, no, totally makes sense. I am curious. So you mentioned when you're describing first deciding to move to whether it was Barcelona, Lisbon, obviously the dream was San Francisco and some capacity. One of the words you use was escape Paris, right? And I'm curious why escape Paris? - Yeah, it's a good question. And I would say like the reason I'm not just saying like 10 years before then now, because I think like maternity leave seems a lot now, but it's a few, you go back like 10 years, and then in Paris wasn't very same as to great starter or walking in tech because not like the classic pass that you should take. And creating like starter, raised from a new everything was very something like for rich people or you had to come like very extensive business schoolers. It was like very like that. Then we had like few initiatives in France that make up the result of people with the Silicon Valley mindset that tried to educate a bit like the Parisian scene. But if you go back 10 years before in Paris, like was very complicated because like raging money was very complicated. Everything was super expensive. If I just understand that keeping in Paris is very stressful. Also, you have like a bad weather, very broady. - Yeah. - Everybody's blurry and everybody's struggling a bit to pay like this super expensive rent. And that's that, as you can imagine. And also I think I wanted to escape this because that's why I told you like 10 years in advance, because maybe I think now it's a bit different, but you cannot fail, you know, Paris. I mean like if you create like a starter for projects, first you will 10 years before you will look like someone like a bit like this is not serious so this is not the right way to have a career. And then it should fail. It's over for you, you know. - Oh, interesting, interesting. - To be honest, now it's a bit different because in 10 years it changed a lot, you know, but I think for me also going to another point three was for all this reason, but also because I don't know like with psychologically, I believe that I was feeling like less race or at least if I was failing, it should be something easier for me. I don't know, maybe. - Yeah. - But yeah. - It sounds like when you moved, right? And like you said, different now in Paris for example, and this is not meant to be disparaging to Paris in any way, but it sounds like the tolerance for failure for entrepreneurs was very low at the time when you were there, right? And I think part of the natural evolution of being an entrepreneur and some capacities that you're going to fail more than likely, right? And some way along the line, right? So many entrepreneurs have started five, six, seven businesses before they finally found one that hit tremendously for them and not saying that's your story at all, right? But obviously anyone that's going into that route with being an entrepreneur accepts that reality that there's a good chance or there's a reasonable chance this will not go the way that I envisioned it, right? And if the market doesn't allow you to raise capital again when you have another idea, then you're right, then you're screwed and you dream kind of dies in that way, right? So it sounds like Barcelona or Spain catered more towards what you were needing in that regard, which was more of an open mind in this towards entrepreneurs, perhaps. Yeah, but I think it was particularly for me also, okay, so I wanted to escape Paris that maybe I would have like to stay in a reserve fire, I was going to his bone on another country, or Berlin, I don't know, because I think it's one important thing also, it's still we meant to find whether you want to create like a company, start like to create your startup. I promised like 10 years ago, like saying startup in a actually seen threads, it was like, by the way, like before they were thinking of short, it was crazy. And then you have also like, it's also social ratio from your friend, from your parent, from your family, from people with whom you went to school. Yeah. So they look me and they can bring me to the mix. I slow it like the past of the life. And okay, so we'll buy my first set and we have babies that will get married and when you take these big the risk to create a company and you're not sure that we'll be successful especially because you don't want to do like a regular business that like a tech startup. Yeah, but you see also these I can try to escape. Yeah, yeah. So general societal pressures, right? Which exists everywhere, right? And to some degree, right? Which is like here in Boston, right? It earned the US. It's a very, very standard thing to go to college, get a job as whatever a lawyer, a doctor, a finance person, whatever the case may be. And yeah, I can see it. That has a real impact on how you approach work in general, right? And again, if you were an entrepreneur here in the States, for example, right? And you fail and you then wait 20s, for example, and you see all your friends are making their way through life, have kids and families and have a steady jobs. It would be hard not to feel the pressure to go that route all of a sudden, right? Of course, of course. I think your move to go somewhere else kind of removed some of that pressure, not completely obviously, but like it allowed you some freedom to explore the life that you wanted to give it a real honest, determined try to make that work for yourself. What's kind of interesting here though is from what I'm gathering, right? Is that I think out of something. school more or less. Entrepreneurship was like your first route. You went right into starting your own businesses. Is that correct? Yeah. Yeah. I think I'd never been employing my life or I think maybe yes, I was. I was working at shop maybe for three months or something. Yeah. It's just something I, you know, she's saying very, very young. I was like, I wanted to create a thing. I wanted to build a company and everything. So, all I even just created stuff and make sure that people they use that. When, even when I was like 16 years old, I remember that I was creating like a chat online, you know, and that created my own server. And I wanted to have traffic on my server and this was making me happy, you know, I sure that I remember when I was a bit younger, like I actually got like 18 years old. I like been music in Paris and I know that Facebook and everything. And I even like the idea of coming to my environment. Social media wasn't existing, but I was making a lot of promotion on my space, I was doing people, you know, and it was also like getting also entrepreneurship. And so then I remembered the more, I thought the last year of my students, so I was doing like an advertising school in Paris and because it's a very, very like also like everything which related to consumer. But I remember like the last year of my master in New Greece, so I was living alone with my mother, but I was just not possible for her to pay my school. And so actually, okay, whatever, I would try to create like a first company. So I created like a little agency, you know, and I was supposed to be because I was doing like a basically like a local digital marketing for all restaurants around where I was living. So it was really because it's so you have it's magic that you buried the new year rule. You didn't exist. Yeah. And so it was very funny because I remember that I was like working with all like kids at restaurants, which year restaurants they wanted to do delivery. They wanted to make promotion, but they were not understanding what is all it works internet to make promotions. So if you were trying to speak to them like, Hey, you have to do advertising and then you have like a cost per click that they don't understand like it. They didn't understand they didn't understand. Now I'm sure now's a like which one like takes a V but they did it understand it. And so I created like a solution like 10 years ago, which was like, I was going to live on like a to visit like one to share a strength. I was sitting in a Hey, look, you're like in preach for you like a website for free. So I was creating like a website. And then I was putting like a phone number on his website, which was look is for number. It was like a number that was redirecting to his phone number. And so when he was like in the phone, yeah, just saying, Hey, we just generate you like a new customer takes the order. And so it was a way for them to understand that I was creating value, you know? And so I get this all the for all the for the last year of my studies and it is my first business. I like different the restaurant like that in a wherever, but I think I was making like between five and eighty day per month with this and so it was like really cool. So that's awesome. Yeah, yeah, it was cool. But then okay. So I think it's also very complicated to be paid. You know, because let's say that's what people are like, yeah, no, but just can I pay you like in two more but it was like a very very good experience. And so yeah, this was like my first experience and just after it was cool. So during my like zero school. Yeah, that's amazing. That's a really cool story. They must have taken so much work like literally go and probably door to door to restaurants and selling them. I mean, selling them that you can make a more orders not so hard, right? Explaining how you're going to do it to people who have no idea how the internet's functioning is the challenge, right? Exactly. And then making them believe in it, right? It's a huge challenge in that particular space. The secret was to find a very good value proposition. Easy to understand. Yeah. And it's certainly because this stuff also is very proposition and something that sort of me on all may mean is like everything that I had that work well is because of the very proposition. Yeah, I know we can discuss about this later. Let's say no, 100%. I mean, it's the same case with obviously, you know, as someone like me is in sales, it's like if I can't articulate a value proposition, no one's ever going to want to work with us, right? That's the key to so much of making business move forward, right? Yeah. So that's your first entrepreneurship. And we don't have to go through all of them, right? Because there's probably a massive story. You've read a book on this stuff. But today you're the co-founder CEO of Mockadom, right? And so I'm very curious about this story, particularly, right? Where do the idea originate from to start this business? And yeah, tell us a little bit about the story of how you started it. Sure. So I promise, I won't speak to you about the I loser and stuff that they had before, but just you don't understand the concept where I met with my co-founder. So basically like in 2019, it creates like a fintech, the thing is bling and basically it's not to help user to avoid being seized with a cash advance for free. Okay? We should like a massive success in France. Very, very good. But I had to left this company because we wanted to have like a regulation of a license and be regulated. And we didn't succeed. And it's like very complicated. And so, sure, I love this company. Any way, it's not a problem. You would see why. But I really was when I was walking like a link, I like two people with whom I was looking for me were like the best element I had in this project, which was like the head of course. And which was like the tech sheet. Okay? When I left, it's the bling project. Then you say to left also the to leave also the company. And we had like two years working a lot, a lot, a lot. You know, like it was very, very bad at it. No sports, bad food, walking, super late. And we were like a so big deep. We were not like underrated that much like the quality of private can offer you Barcelona. And when so when we left we said, okay, yeah, we will do for sure something together like the sphere of science because we wanted to create something new. And what we understood we remembered from bling was like the very proposition of the bling was okay, I don't know the app and get 100 euros instantly. So you can imagine the nature of like burying. And so it's okay. We have to find like something strong like that. And the thing is when we also decided to leave bling, we decided to take care of about ourselves. We started to do sport. We started to really start to enjoy Barcelona, to have a long walk, to start to do running, to start to do cycling and everything. And of course, we're like very takes heavy. We started to try all the fitness apps you can imagine. Yeah, to control calorie, everything can be admitted. Then we decided to go for one month in Mexico because we were sure that we will find ideas in Mexico. It's probably didn't find any ideas in Mexico. Just for just Andre one month in Mexico. And then when we come back, we started to see like the next scale of free to you know, working on a move to do you know. And we're taking like very interesting that there is probably something to do. And so let's try to run to MVP and something that we learned during existence is a moment where we are trying to find a new idea is like a support of working. Because the thing is actually we are not like doing spots. We're like very tired and everything. But to try to brainstorm and everything we started to walk a lot in Barcelona as you mentioned, and we find such a probability to work. And we understand that it's very good for your body. Actually you have to do it. You're more beautiful. You have like a better mindset and everything. We understood that with the work, we sure that working can be like the first step to have like a more active life. And also we understand that working people they don't consider the risk that much as like a real spot. And I will tell you also something else. It's for people working is not cool. And so here we understood that we had to do something like that. We were seeing it again. But if we, we don't want you to drag it to the trees. Forse if people because we're not like that. But we did it was interesting and tried to target people that are not spotsy at all, but they want to be more active. Yeah. So this is what we did. And so here we go. And we created like the other people for working basically. Yeah. Right. And I think two things work randomly to get really well, right, which is your value proposition, right, which is this is something that just about anyone can do. And you can now earn for it. That's a great value proposition. And the barrier of entry for this is so low, right? Like you said, right, not everyone enjoys sports, not everyone works out, not everyone plays soccer, whatever it is, right. But everyone's probably going to walk, right. And recalibrating how people look at walking is the thing here as well, right. It's not sport, but it's not so far from sport, right, especially if you do it a lot. The exercise is amazing, both through mental health and your physical health, right. And so getting people to recognize that this is something that they're capable of is right there for you. But most importantly, I think you really push people to do it more through the act of rewarding. Now I'm curious, because you mentioned you had seen other apps in the space like crypto style apps that were starting to reward for this sort of behavior, maybe like sweat coin and stuff like that, right. What was the biggest challenge that you guys encountered? You built an MPP, right. What's the biggest challenge from there and getting it into market and getting it adopted by consumers in your opinion? Well, so we are free up and today we monetize with the partnership and kind of a marketing, okay. But so the thing is you want to make sure what they're just an appointment that's you, because you understand all of that. So we make review by understanding basically and there is one path for the review we make that we give to the users, and this is a way to make money by working, okay. But this to have enough revenue and start to monetize, well, you have to be sure that they're like a certain level of agents. And so what is important to the very beginning for us was to start like this big push, but that first to have like enough users to start to be interested for brands and to start to integrating these different offers and be sure that we can monetize. So I think it was this. Then I think that the mod that is very very. interesting app-eating for the user. So for us, it's not that complicated to get users. I think it's not because we're lily, but because texting is a very popular issue, it's really good. So that's the new for working, there is no reason to talk about it on your phone, basically. And we believe also that we are in the mission of the thing in the potter because we can expand your whites, it's very important to work more. And then also in terms of engagement, it's really good because our users, basically, want to start to make some money in the end, and they're like money in the end of the end, they don't want to share, of course they want to give the app, and so you can say, "Well, we are good, you should compare with classic gold or fitness." Yeah, yeah. And so your question was, we're getting, all we address is different these items, like crypto app. The challenge in starting it, right? I mean, you identified the challenges, like you had to get, it's an app that monetizes the ads, right? And you pass some of that ad monetization back to the customers as their rewards that they get for walking, right? But to be able to do that, you need to be able to get good ad revenue coming into the app, right? And that could have revenue will only come if the app is at a certain threshold of size, where brands are interested or technology partners are interested or whatever the case may be, right? And so it sounds like the first challenge here was probably growing the audience, right? And getting people onto the idea. But you identified growth in some ways is not a huge challenge, right? Because you probably have, I know when you co-founded the company, one of the people was the head of growth at Blank, right? And so you've had expertise at your back, I'm presuming. You had a background in advertising, so you had your expertise. And then the third thing that's worked, I mean, your favor is the audience targeting for something like this is probably pretty broad, right? Granted, you're not necessarily going after ultra marathoners, for example. But like I said before, everyone can walk. -Good, great. -Most people want additional income in their pockets. And so you can apply pretty broad filters to deliver growth rather quickly to an app like this. And once you reach a certain threshold, then you have a flywheel scenario where you're getting really good ad dollars and you're passing those back to the users and they're continuing to grow through these channels. What I'm curious about is the importance of community for an app like this as well, right? Because you're so broad appealing because so many people do it. How do you leverage this concept of community and tie users to each other in order to deliver more engagement, if at all? -Yeah, it's a really good question. I think I work with the geniuses of first thing, I was amazed about it like I did because we still have that for you to put it all on sleep, we're like people, they're talking to creating like a mechanism group. And every day, it's people like Macadam and they share that screenshot and then they're daily steps, their works and everything. And so this community creates them. Why are we integrating the community? I would admit that one of the most important way of growth for us, like a lot of growth, it's the referral invite your friend to join Macadam and you get some interesting. And this for us like a referral party is like very very very very very important. Okay. And I think it will be the next topic, but also somewhere where we realize that we have like a very poor supermitting where we can do something with it's when we create like our map. So we create like a map feature, which is like a kind of social map to be like kind of Pokemon go but instead of like training Pokemon, you will find like a code that we put everywhere like in the world in the cities. And you can see also your friend and which flood the visitation are seeing and these became like our second most of the screen now to our up. And we know that a lot of scholars or the usage or so for to see what you're doing and everything. So yeah, so it sounds like community in terms of some of your executions, obviously, is the referral piece, right? Yep. And it sounds like organically, people just really love the product and they started creating Facebook groups and they probably started bragging about not bragging, but just sharing how effective it was for them, right? Or how much they walked into given day, right? And that created some sort of virality, but the referral program helps for an on but maybe most importantly, most recently, the map features a big deal. And that's a straight up gamification of the application they experience. Everything is inherently gamified in the sense that walk to earn by itself is taking some example and adding a component of gaming to it, right? But adding a map feature where you can almost have quests for users to go and search out certain things or maybe go out and find some of their friends on the app, that adds a whole layer of gamification and probably increases engagement significantly for you guys as you've described. Of course, you know, me and my goal is to make people work more and I will use like all give-eification strategies to reach this vision. And so yeah, of course, we will give a deviation and we'll get to much more users. Yeah. What I'm curious about as well, though, is it sounds like the gamification piece adds another layer of rewarding mechanism, right? Because they can go and they can find and go to certain locations and get a certain reward, right? We don't want to do this model because I understand this, but it's a bit objussi. It's sort of like a partnership with a one-shot, and I say, "Get my user, go to this shop and you will get the reward." But it's for me to be boring. I don't want to do that. No. I really want to do it like on what we do in a straight boom and there is like a Pikachu attack period. So basically, yeah, me just this is what we want is to make people working at this cover as I see, not just to do shopping, you know. So yeah, and the more they will work and they will see like so we have like coins that we put in the street, but also we create like what's they call like my card and spot. The virtual place into the map and when you go there, you have like a kind of fake slot machine and you know, if you play to it, you can get some coins and every time you go to my card and spot you, you will see your face on the back and spot, you know, you say, "Oh, it's crazy, you know, I probably want to open the icon." Bar's are enough. For example, I actually like some spot in Barcelona. I have done like a one to the people that went to this top and she's putt and this is the same like people to Berlin, to Paris, to London, pretty cool. That's super cool. Yeah, yeah. This on a street for me, it's one of the most interesting features we have today. I mean, also for now, why is it in product wise and something that we really want to develop much more and create like more experience cases and bring more coming to your reach? Yeah, no, it's incredible. It must be such a satisfying experience to see a thousand people go to one location and of course, of course. It's like, it kind of like, yeah, puts them in respect of the scale of the whole thing and then the success you guys have had and growing it. Not only in audience, but like a super engaged audience of people that like are genuinely having fun using this app in their day to day. Today it's walking. Today it's walking plus gamification. How do you think about the idea of diversification, right? Of manners and which users can earn? Do you think beyond walking into the future? Obviously, we work together to provide users a fun way when they're not walking to continue to earn with market done, but I'm curious how you think about this idea of delivering further engagement in the future. I'd probably put you meaning like they're being you for cycling or anything. Maybe not cycling anything, right? Monatization, how do you think about continuing to keep users engaged? The further expansion of the map concept is a more market-based notification? So you see an app like you're doing go, for example, the goal is to create like a daily adit and be sure you will practice every day because it's the way you can be sure you can improve your language skills now. Or also believe that there is like a you need to make you working every day and make people working every day. When I read like, it's like a studio that's like in the release by the French government, everything that's like 85% of the adult population in France, that's a reason of an issue progress because they don't work enough. You know, this is crazy. And so that's you have to create like a daily adit. And I think I don't want to go everywhere and I just want to create like best working app that can exist in the world because there is an issue today with working because it don't work. Why? Because they believe it's not cool because today all innovation will hold for them. It's to don't work. I guess you can order your Uber, you can take like your line, you can take your, I believe your wish. Yeah, and frankly, you can stay your house as well, right? Like the world is so easy to not leave and leave your house in the first place. So all these things come together, whether it's say you can get delivery of any food you want to your house and in groceries. If you want to go somewhere, you can take an Uber, you can take a scooter, whatever it is. They all detract people from healthy habits, right? And they all make it hard for people to want to go more. Exactly. And so we have like so much ideas that all we can engage more, how our user, you know, like some employees, yeah, in this map, it doesn't look like for the user. Yeah, you have to work like a 10,000 steps to get people to know they will find it's funny because they see the map, right? And they won't want to step they do, but they will work more, you know? And I think like that's for like so many of course, every time things I don't want to do to sure now, but yeah, of course, we have one that prepares the hypervised which is like very, very, very good to know and we sure encourage like us from Billy and each other totally. That's awesome. I think we improve this. One of the things that now is kind of not necessarily related to this, but it's related to the idea of growth, right? Is these mentioned a few countries where you're available, right? Whether it's France or Spain or Germany or whatever the case may be and obviously walking has the amazing benefit of like I said a few times now almost everyone can do it across the world, right? It raises to me a challenge for you guys in terms of where would you go next, right? And not saying that you should share your specific expansion behind something that someone I'm asking, what I'm asking is how do you make the decision as to where to go next as a business? How do you decide what country do we want to enter Macadam in as a next phase? What kind of considerations do you make? We're still like young guys, we just have like a turn two years so yeah, it's really quite early still, but so what was easy for us? It's what, okay, so we started by like a very big growth in France and so then we would set it to open countries that look like France basically because we know that we can have like the same kind of gave you, you know, so that's why you open Spain, Germany, Italy, Portugal, you know, so basically European countries. Of course. we are mobile apps so you can imagine that we would love to go to USA. So we are available on USA but we don't put too much effort today because I think like a americator like which not DmND in terms of user experience so I think we have to adapt a bit also our product but so yeah of course we try to target very big countries. In the end you like the mission we have and the problem we try to target is like a worldwide problem in all markets and so if we go to the biggest market we will have to be the biggest impact. So that's why we think about like a USA which is also about Brazil, Mexico, you know it's going to be great but there is also like one limitation we have today so that we have to understand because it's not like okay I think it's like an app and my app is cool and so I can just get it to everywhere in the world. It's not like that because you understand that we have our modern which is like an app that we are working for we have this kind of game economy but the thing is with this game economy we have to pay really easy users and between we make money with advertising and with the path of the revenue we make with advertising we have to the user but so that is in that I have to target Quintrate or so where I'm sure that it's just an ebook for me because I would make enough you get my funds right. 100% right. The translation of points to a user's wallet is different from country to country and the CPMs are different from country to country in terms of what an advertiser wanted to pay. Exactly. It creates a whole challenge mathematically of is this do I go to Japan right? Well there's a whole massive study you have to do there around what is the value of consumer and what is the value of ads and how do we construct an economy around that which is not straightforward at all. Exactly and once you do that also because even if you can capture more than because okay so in this country okay is the CPM and this driver okay cool but then also you have to give a value to your client or he wants a user and in some country maybe like the value of your client in Spain one is the same than in New Jersey because it's not your love to get users you know all yeah it sounds that's easy you know it's not that easy but it sounds like it it is not easy but I mean two years you guys are in a number of countries you mentioned earlier like we're not talking about the size of your audience but obviously this is a widely used application we have seven million users today that's incredible yeah and you can speak of what like a weekly active user so if you're coming every week we're almost at two billion that's just incredible I mean two years to have two million people and again I keep thinking of you looking at the map and seeing the thousand people go into a single spot and like what an accomplishment it is in that period of time to grow an app to that kind of size and scale but not only just to grow an app because there are tons of businesses that grow an app but to grow one that people are engaged with and that delivering real benefit to our lives on a day-to-day basis right and enabling them pushing them to just live a healthier life right which is such a valuable thing especially of course with the direction that we've been heading in this world for a long time not to get too heady with it all but it's easy to not do anything and get by on life right but to give people and to show them that there's real value and just walking I think it's a really cool accomplishment in and of itself so congrats on tremendous growth and a really wonderful message thank you all right Benjamin it's been such a pleasure chatting with you today I really appreciate the insights you brought to the table I think your story as an entrepreneur leading Paris taking serious risks starting your own business by helping restaurants secure new orders when you're in civil and school I mean this is just an incredible story and I've I've so appreciated you sharing it with us today so congrats again on your accomplishments at Makadam and any of your past accomplishments and thanks for sharing with us today thank you very much for all I think we were very nice if anyone wants to go and test out Makadam app go to your app stores iOS Google Play whatever story you use search Makadam M-A-C-A-D-A-M and you can now earn rewards for someone you do every day which is walk it's a great way to stay healthy and a great way to have some fun in your day to day for all our listeners today's guests is Benjamin Dudin-Yak who is the co-founder and CEO at Makadam Benjamin thanks again really been a pleasure thank you very much thank you thank you for tuning into the Mass Appeal podcast brought to you by Adjo you can see all our great episodes by visiting Adjo that's adjo.io/blog or even better subscribe and never miss an episode if you enjoyed what you heard please leave us a five-star review on iTunes so more people can learn these awesome app marketing insights see you next time