22 – Coaching, Part 1

[music] Welcome to Improv, beat by beat. I'm Curtis Rutherford. I interviewed a whole bunch of different improvisers and then edited together chunks of those interviews to investigate different aspects of Improv one piece at a time. This is episode 22, coaching, heart one. [music] There aren't many guidelines to coaching. One day someone decides that should be great coach or a team needs a coach last second and that person coaches a team. And then they decide to continue coaching that team and other teams. And the next thing you know, that person can call herself a coach. There isn't any training specific for coaching other than doing Improv and seeing what you like or don't like that other coaches do. So, one of the questions that I asked many of the people I interviewed was some variation on what's your coaching philosophy. I ended up with a lot of material. Too much, perhaps. Even after trimming down a lot of the interviews with a lot of help from Alejandro Cardona, I still had a good two hours and so I've split this episode into two chunks. Part one will cover how to coach and what makes a coach great and then part two will talk about some of the specific difficulties of coaching and go through some exercises. Even if you're not a coach or don't plan to coach, this episode will have some good information with how you can make sure you're getting the most from your coach and your practice sessions. So, to start out, I'm going to say that there are some implicit guidelines with how coaches and teams interact that I'm going to make explicit. Consider these the rules with paying and hiring a coach. Number one, if you cancel on a coach within 24 hours of your practice, you still need to pay them in full. That coach may have turned down other gigs in order to coach your team and by canceling on them, you've deprived that person of money that they could have made. Most people don't make their living off coaching, but some do. And even if you don't, it's still time blocked out to make some extra money. A coach may waive this for various circumstances, but that is up to the coach and the circumstance. Assume if you've hired a coach, you're paying that person once your practice is 24 hours away. Rule number two, have your money ready to go at the end of a session for your coach. Don't use the end of practice often when the coach needs to have to go to their next appointment to collect money from each person, each person wondering if someone else has change and so on. It's a waste of your coach's time. Collect the money ahead of time, or have one person in charge of monthly dues so that person can pay the coach, or just have one person pay the coach and then they can collect money from the team after. But when the session is over, have that money ready so the coach can go, or Venmo them or whatever. Rule three, and this is for coaches. If you, the coach, has to cancel within 24 hours, your sick and other job came up, whatever. Help to find a subcoach. If you can't, and that team can't have practice now because you're missing, pay for the room. Don't make the team pay for a room that they can't use because you had to cancel. So now that that is out of the way, first off is Bill DePiro, who is going to give an overview of coaching and what sort of notes to give. My main goal with coaching depends on what the group is. If it's a practice group, I'm very functional and technical. If it's a team, I'm trying to get them to trust each other and build off of each other. I find it easier to coach groups because there's more of a clear objective of what we're working towards. People I haven't met before they're walking in and I'm like, "Make me better." It's like, "I don't know you, so I can't make you better at whatever your things are." And often it goes into such personal territory where it's like, "Well, let's address your personal flaws so we can make you better at those things." I'm coaching to an objective and I'd like them to define it for me what they want but usually people won't do that. And to me, that's a whole coach versus director distinction. Yeah, so let's talk about that distinction because people only really think in terms of coaches. But I feel like the thinking of it sometimes as a director, especially if it's a house team or a team that's working on a particular goal feels like more what we should be striving for? I think that's right. Because with the coaching system, you work at the pleasure of the team and if you push them into any sort of uncomfortable territory or challenge them in any way that one person doesn't like, then you get not asked back. But if you're a director, you can come in with sort of a game plan. My time in New York, I've maybe had one or two examples of that. The main one being when I had just joined Slamball, they asked Achilles to direct them. And he basically came in with a game plan every week. That was very geared towards the goals that the team had decided and then handed it off to him to sort of execute. And he was like, it was basically the goal was to do more organic open-ended shows where we didn't have a set form or an opening or a way of doing second beats. There were a number of different options and he would come in with different exercises each week to steer towards that. Your question was between coach and director. Yeah. And coach is just kind of like in my mind, especially in the house team world. A coach comes in to say, "This is what you're doing. This is what I'm getting from that." Yeah. Which is different than saying, "This is what you should be working towards or giving your goals. This is how you should get there." Right. It's more reactionary, which we feel more comfortable with of, "Hey, I'm asking this person to watch us for a little bit. They're going to say some things. We're going to adjust rather than having that very clear vision." So, be honest, it can feel arbitrary with the coach and a little unmotivated. You know where it's like, "All right, well, I guess I can get better at second beats." And sometimes that's helpful, but I find it in a more fulfilling if I'm working towards something larger. And I'm trying to do something that feels more than just like doing the same shit, but a little bit differently. Right. You know, or slightly better, but then it's also just like, whenever you do it, it could be worse. But teams are very reticent to just say, "We want to do this." Nobody wants to be the person to just step forward and say, "Let's do this." So then with coaching, you mentioned a little bit, descriptive versus prescriptive coaching. Let's unpack this. So descriptive versus prescriptive on coaching. What do you, that feels a little bit like the coach director thing that we were talking about in some ways. So, what I'm meaning by prescriptive versus descriptive, is descriptive was, you guys weren't heightening enough in that scene. Right. That's descriptive. Prescriptive is giving someone a note that will make them heighten more the next time, which is very difficult, and I often don't know how to do the prescriptive. I feel like I'm pretty good at being like, that's why that didn't work. Right. But if it's why, if I'm getting someone to that place, it's, and this goes into that other thing I was saying, which was like describing games externally from like, as if it were a completed piece versus like, having it from the process of how someone's thinking about it, which is like, if I'm playing a game, I'm probably not thinking of it as a systematic sketch. And if I am, I'm not super present. And I'm doing that because something's off. But maybe I'm just like, this is my want, this is my belief here, my point of view, to go back to the descriptive prescriptive. I feel like the way that notes are given are often descriptive. And it's not actually connected with what a player is processing and doing in a moment, where you can sort of like tell someone the end result of it. Yeah. But it's very hard to get into a player's head to be like, I think this is what you were thinking while this was going on. There's also that disconnect in what's going on in someone's head, as opposed to what's going on in a like, higher level players head. Right? I mean, I think that you may not think that much about game when you're doing it, but you've been drilled in that and you know, like, oh, I need to hit this, this, and this. That when you're in it, you're in it because that's like in your bones. But that prescriptive thing, that is, I think, the toughest part. Like, how do you get somebody to, okay, you did this thing. What was the, I try to think of it a lot in terms of like, crux moments and scenes. What was the moment where the scene went like wrong and it's like, oh, this scene, you guys needed to do blank, right? Is kind of the descriptive version. Some of it is, for me, I try to think of it as, this is the moment when you could have done this thing. Yeah. Right? As soon as you realized everybody was saying, oh, later on, we're going to do this thing. As soon as you hear that phrase later or in you're talking about the future, immediately do it. I think that's often part of it where it's not active. Doing scenes actively is something I push when I'm coaching. Yeah. And I don't think I really know how to explain what I mean to people. And it's a feeling that I often get where, you know, I think whenever I do a scene that's poor, I'll often get notes that are kind of like, we could have done this or this. But really the note is you weren't moving enough. Yeah. You didn't get hot and yell or like you didn't like, uh, right, you know, I feel like when I'm doing a scene that's really going well, like I feel like I'm in it in a way that like my thinking brain goes away and I'm just like more reactive and emotional. It really becomes much more of the don't think ideal. Yeah. That was Bill DePiro. Try to do it. What makes your notes prescriptive? Imagine that you were in the scene or think back to when you've been in scenes like that one. What could you have done to make that scene better? Make your notes portable. Is this a note that can be transferred to other scenes? If it's only useful for that one scene, it's not a great note. No one is ever doing or seeing that improv scene again. Up next is a Killy-Stamadalaki. We were talking about commitment in improv, which led to talking about coaching. It's amazing how much of sometimes improv the problems are just like, "You guys just didn't try." It's just like, "Oh, this doesn't work when you don't commit to it." And committing always feels to me, it always felt like, "Well, that's the easiest thing to do. I can't be funny or think faster or anything like that." But I can commit harder. Why is that ever our problem? I feel like commitment too is the first thing to fall off when a scene isn't going well because the UCB term would be ironic detachment. This silly thing is happening. You don't quite know what it is or you're not fully supportive of it, so you're going to disengage from it and just start commenting on that thing rather than throwing yourself into it. I think every single improviser has been in that moment, especially if you're really deep into a show that isn't going well. You're just like, "I can't." Yeah. But the thing that I think is like a tricky thing is with commitment specifically, it's not a thing that we work on because it's so much of it is acting, so much of it is trusting the people on stage. So much of it is confidence in your ability to throw yourself into the scene, to throw yourself into supporting your scene partner. These are all things that we touch on in one-on-one with the exercises that we do, but it's not really something that you can be like, "Okay, let's work on commitment." Right. A lot of it is acting, whereas our focus is mostly on what's the game. How can we get the most out of the herald? Are we heightening our second beats and third beats? Are we doing good group games? So commitment is like one of those things that's hard. So we end up just kind of saying, "Hey, be more committed without doing, without finding what's that note underneath either that can make them more committed." Of, "Hey, if you focus on this thing, it'll lead you to being more committed," or just saying, "Yeah, these are the exercises that we do that force commitment and force you to put that in your arsenal that's always at the ready." Yeah. And I think that's what coaches can also keep an eye on is when you're giving a note, like you said, you have this large note and then you're giving the note that's underneath that note. So one thing that, like when I was on an indie team, like practice group, Charlie Sanders was our coach and Charlie Sanders was a very tough coach and in a good bay. But his main note for us always was commit, like commit, commit, commit. And it would always be like, "Of course, that makes sense." But I never quite got what he meant by that. But as you kind of do more scenes and see more shows, you kind of define that for yourself. And I think it's important for coaches to say, "Yeah, commit." But also, how do you do that in a specific way? Okay, so you're committing, you're reacting with a clear emotion and you're heightening that emotion in the scene. Or you're matching your scene partner and you're trying to outdo them. Another way you can commit is what's the base reality of the scene? Just really existing in that scene in a way where you're not trying to play the game. I think coaches reach a certain level of aptitude when they're doing that next level thing. Like, "Hey, you need to do this. Here are the ways to do it." And I think there are obviously a lot of good coaches who are like, "You need to commit. You need to justify. You need to do XYZ." And they're picking at the right note, but they're missing the next level of it. Which I think it's super important, especially for young students, where they're like, "Okay, so how do you do that thing?" It's a little bit like saying, "Oh, you need to make more of the shots." Yeah. You're not sticking enough of the shots. "Okay, yeah, you're right. I should make. " Yeah, the shot was open and I need to go in. "I didn't do that." Yeah. It's like that you're noting the result rather than how to get to the result. Right. How to get to the result is obviously much more important. You mentioned everybody kind of needing to learn their own way of commitment. Because commitment doesn't just mean like, "I'm acting harder." Yeah. Every scene being an Oscar moment, what are your ways that you feel like this is how I need to commit? For me, the thing I like to do is do something physical or do something where I'm really just focusing on reacting to the other person. And I'm not super worried about game because I know that I'll take care of itself. So when I feel myself kind of like, "Yeah, disengaging," or if I notice, like, "Oh, my scene partner is really doing something funny and I'm kind of just like a blank slate." That doesn't feel good. So I'm not. I'm in the scene. I'm engaged in the scene, but I'm not committed. Let me do something physical. Let me have a huge reaction to this. Let me play this scene with more mellow drama. Those kind of small things help me, yes, stay engaged in the scene. Because yeah, it is a little bit hard to tell students that because they're thinking about so many things. But for me, since I know I went to catch it when I'm doing it, I can kind of just be like, "Oh, I need to make this adjustment." Right. Right. Oh my God, this person is really spinning plates up there and I'm just kind of watching. Let me jump in and be as emotive and physical and intense as they are. That was a kill. One thing that I found helps me as a coach is, as I take notes, I often make marks next to my notes for a scene when that scene is over or almost over. I'll put an empty square next to the most important note and maybe a bullet point next to one or two other notes. If I have big notes for each person, I'll put an empty square next to the note I have for each person. When I'm giving notes on the scene or on an entire show or set, my notes aren't a laundry list of, "Here was everything good and bad about the scene." That's too much to focus on and too much to bring into the next scene. Instead, I can talk about the one important note and give that one note, check it off my paper and then leave the other smaller notes in the back of my head. Those notes often become the things that I use either for personal exercises. For instance, I've noticed you do this a lot. Or there are little things that I can be on the lookout for in other scenes to see if it's a bigger note than I realize. Perhaps that one tiny thing is reliably keeping that person from having fun scenes. But those are the smaller notes. Maybe I'll mention, maybe I won't. But really I'm focusing on the one big note. Getting things to one major note per person per scene helps that person digest the note and gives me more time to explain how to fix it. Rather than you didn't agree with your partner, your object work was bad. I couldn't hear one of your lines. The Civil War ended in 1865 and not in 1875. Blah blah blah blah blah. I can instead say, "Your partner offered the gift that you were late for work." And you said you weren't. From there on, the scene got difficult. So next time anything your partner says, I want you to agree with it. Every question mark they offer should prompt a yes from you. You don't have to be glad that you're saying yes. But you as an improviser are saying that's true, even if you as a character are saying, "But I'm not happy about it." Now that's a longer note than my original full list of things, but it's focused on that one thing that I happened to think was the most important thing for the scene. Later on, I'll work with that person on stage presence and object work and I'll make them watch all 72 hours of Ken Burns Civil War. But for now, agreement was the important note, so I'm not even going to mention those other things. Up next is Lily Do. When you're coaching, what are some of your big like, "This is what I think I bring to coaching. This is what I want to see in scenes or in teams or like that." I'm best for more advanced teams with a mission, whether that's to put on a good show at cage match or to learn a new form. Because they're already all pretty competent and then I just have to target a thing and then that's easy. I can come up with new exercises. I can talk to other people because I'm pretty analytical. So then I can really try to target that and kind of just make small adjustments on things that they already know how to do. Which does make it much easier as a coach anytime a team comes to you and says like, "We want this." Oh, thank God. Out of every million things I can have done with you, now we're on this one road and I just have to worry about how do you stay on this road. Maybe I'm just saying, "I'm good at coaching. Everyone's ideal circumstance." I think people don't think of how much that then makes it easier for the coach, which therefore it makes it much better for you as an improviser who's receiving this practice. It is harder for me with like a 301 or 401 because sometimes I'll be like, "What do you want to work on?" And if they're just like patting game two hours, I'm like, "Great." But usually it'll be like, "We want to work on agreement and pattern game and game and finding the game faster and also resting it." And I'm bad at focusing my brain on being like, "I'll say okay, but really we'll just work on this one thing." I don't know if I'm great for morale, for a group that's really kind of not getting it and kind of bad and struggling. I can't be like, "Great job." After a really terrible set, I have to just like note them honestly. I won't be like, "That was shitty." But I feel like they can tell in my notes. Right. I often struggle with that same thing because I feel like I'm often pretty blunt with notes that I worry like how much should I be like a cheerleader. And I don't think teams need it as much as sometimes we feel. Really? I don't know. I don't know. I feel like so much of improv is just what you're bringing in like psyche and morale wise. and like mechanics is sometimes almost like instinctive that like you are there to make them feel like they can function as a unit and like that they can do it. - I guess I think of it in two halves of like, sometimes it is just I want to do function stuff and sometimes I am much more of a, let's be cheerleaders, just have. - Yeah, I think it's yeah, like what they need that time, but I definitely think like I would prefer a group that already has the morale and the self-confidence of being a little more experienced or around so that they can take the notes and we can just really work on stuff. - Right, that was lily-doo. If you have a goal for your team, tell your coach that. If you don't, tell your coach that and maybe they can come up with a game plan. Often with a team I haven't coached before, that happens after warm-up scenes. I think about my main notes during the warm-up scenes and I give them some exercises to work on those things. And then I do more scenes to see whether they've started to internalize those notes. But if you know you're a team that exists to do blank, tell your coach that. But if it becomes that laundry list of we wanna work on blank, blank, blank, blank, blank, blank, it might be better to say we wanna work on scene work and let your coach figure out which aspects of scene work to focus on. Up next is Devon Richie. - Yeah, I think I've had a lot of success being like a fun coach, you know? Like I really just try to have fun for a while and then like before I get to like down and dirty notes, it needs to be comfortable. Like so many things that we do at the UCB in classes and with some coaching, just tends to be like pretty mechanical and scientific and I laugh a lot, you know? - I laugh a lot. - I remember, Distan had like when he was like writing up his herald thing, he like wrote up a bunch of notes for himself and we were like sharing notes 'cause I also write up a bunch of notes for myself. And one of his first bullet points was-- - Notes for yourself as an improviser? - As a coach. As like these are things that people have done with me that I exercise as people have done on Teams I've been on that I liked and I just like started keeping track of it and things for me to remember as a coach that like don't fall into this trap, don't fall into that trap. And yeah, one of his first ones was laugh, it puts people at ease. - You gotta laugh and you gotta be silly. And that's why I like people to like share a little bit about themselves so we're not like absolute strangers at the top of it. And I also sometimes I say something where I'm like, I can't get you on a herald night, like do not, like do not be afraid of me practice it somewhere where we should feel free to like make stupid choices and sometimes like sometimes people do make mistakes so I'm like well don't say that. But like this is a safe place to try, you know, and you better find out here then in front of an audience, you know? So that's fine. I reward people trying stuff. - Yeah. - And I think you really have to set like a very comfortable room 'cause like sometimes the room was not comfortable for me and I felt like I was like very much performing for one person, you know, no matter what. I'd be like I know as I can get me on herald night. - Yeah, right. - No they can't. - It seems like you treat practice a little bit in that kind of physical way of hey we are gonna warm up, we're gonna do some scenes, this is reps, this is like the analog of going to the gym on us. - Yeah, and I'm like I need you guys to feel like you did get to work out today too. And I also find that while we're talking about physicality, if people are in their head, get them in their body then. Getting them to play physically is like they'll forget. They'll be like, oh I was doing that and I'm like now scenes and they're like, oh my god I wasn't thinking I'm like that's the whole point. Like you weren't supposed to be thinking and for some types of impressors saying you'd get like really physical to do. Yeah I really try to run it like this is a gym, leave everything back at home and talk it out right before we go we're gonna do 100 scenes like we're gonna do 30 scenes right before we start. I've considered with one group just like doing that the whole exercise and just like just doing like 300 scenes all day. I'm like that's mental stress for me. But then like we need to work on some longer packages and we need to like run those like as much as possible and find out I like to run diagnostics on a team. We're like just before we do anything like let me just see what you guys do. Let me get a feel for like how your team is and then I also really like to have a conversation with them. I like to be like what do we want to work on? And they'll be like, oh whatever you want. I'm like no no you have ideas. So like and I want to hear from everybody and I want to be like, something bugging you, heightening, listening, any opening that like is grinding your gears, playing fidelity, you know, like feel free to talk about it. Like that's open, something you know and they always have something to say. 'Cause they made this team theoretically. They're paying for the room and me, you know, they made this team. Yeah. They have a couple ideas about what we could do. I'm like now I'm not trying to get you to know each other. Yes. But like let's talk about what you want to do and then I occasionally stop and have a conversation with them. And I'm like everybody sit down. Like everybody's like chill for a minute. Get a water. You need to check the phone if you want. But like let's talk about like how we like certain forms. How we play to describe to me how you think you guys play. You know, and then I also like one of my favorite things that I talked about is just like what's game. And they're like, oh yeah, I'm like, well let's make sure we know and make sure that we as a team are on the same page about what we think it is. And it's usually pretty close, but like I like really, like plaster in it all the while. And they're like, this is what this team thinks about game. Yeah. I don't even try to answer it for them necessarily. So each team then has their own, because they have their own voice, it's like they have their own slight change in definition. And so like, you know, in some teams play a little more world games and some play a little more like personal behavioral games and stuff. And it's whatever you guys want. And like everybody's pretty close because everybody did take some TV and they're like, it's an unusual thing that happens. And I'm like, yeah, yeah. And there it gets the pattern. It's the funny thing. It's the first thing you laugh at. For some teams, it's not the first thing you laugh at. And for some people like they're like, they will go a few unusual things before they get to the real media one. Is it something that is like world or behavioral? And so I really like to run some diagnostics that are like, let's play this with fidelity. Let me give you your premise and play this as straight as possible. And then everybody look for an unusual thing and raise your hand when you get one. Right. And just try to-- You can kind of see them work and develop and see, OK, let me pinpoint exactly. And then they're like, and they'll raise their hand and be like, oh, is it because they're holding their pen weird? I'm like, I don't think that's enough. Yeah. So I really like to just like really get-- I make them say what game is. I'm like, we've taken a lot of class. We've spent enough money to find out what game is. So let's really be clear about it. And be clear about what your little improv philosophy is. I don't think people realize they exactly have them until they're put on the spot about it. And I guess I feel this way. Which is one of the advantages of coaching. When I started coaching, especially I found, oh, I have to. I had this from talking to all of my friends constantly about improv, but it really refined that of, oh, and I'm now saying this, too. Yeah. And it changes the way you do improv. I am a much more supportive player because I'm because I'm coaching improv. So I'm like, noting it all day long. I'm like, support that. Make that look cool. And I really try to take that home with me. But I might do something on stage that I feel like, oh, I just previously noted somebody that day about. I feel viscerally bad. I do too. I'm like, oh, they're here, too. You know? They're definitely at the show. That was Devon Richey. By the way, here are some of the notes from Sean and I that we wrote for ourselves and then passed to each other and around. Sean wanted me to give the caveat that it is an old document. The version I have is from 2013. So we all change our thoughts and what we focus on and how we present different things. But it's still great advice. So here it is. First, every team needs a game plan. It requires discussion. A unified game plan is important for getting the team on the same page. In sports, that's called team identity. Teams play to their strengths. Here's another one. B coach Eric Taylor from Friday Night Lights. Always be focused on where the team is in the process. Don't skip steps. A herald is built in order. By the way, I should say, at the time he was watching all of Friday Night Lights. So when we talked about coaching, it was often in terms of this is what Eric Taylor would do. The next one, build up your players. Make them feel confident in the system. Tell them the things they are doing right, as well as the things they're doing wrong. Also, reps, reps, reps. Repeating exercises and doing tons of heralds is the only way to get consistent. And finally, having fun doesn't always mean being silly. The most fun thing is when you do something right and create magic. That takes discipline and hours of unfun practice. Those were some of Sean Distance notes from his coaching document. I was going to read some of the notes from myald coaching document, but I realized it's all stuff that I've either said or has been covered by other people here. So I'm only going to say one of them because it could use some emphasis. You are not giving notes on a scene. You are using a scene as a diagnostic tool to give notes to the performer. Next up is Chris Scott. When a team comes to me and goes, like, we want to do a monocene or whatever. We definitely try to figure out what they like about it from watching it or doing it. Because if you're doing a monocene, super simple form and theory, do you because it's slow and patient? Or do you like playing 100 characters that you pile on and get to chaos? Or do you like more drama? Do you like being able to play? Do a little bit more narrative. So I definitely need to figure out what they are focused. Which is a question most people don't ask themselves. And can you just ask teams of like, oh my god, yeah. What do you like? And they're like, we don't have the words to describe it. It's like, why not? Yeah. And so you want to ask, like, well, what teams do you like? Yeah. And it's like being like the three. There's three weekend teams. Exactly. And then it's what do you like about it? I don't know. They trust each other and play well together. I'm like, all right, good. Well, that's why you're on the-- Yeah. You don't think about it. I've started a lot of my career. coaching sessions. I know this is going to ring true and it bothers every person I coach. It is like often, if I'm not like super clear on what I wanna do that day, I'm like, does anybody have any hope, fears, dreams, ideas, thoughts, bad improv? And they all go like, - Yeah. - Did you meet one person who's like, oh, I'm struggling with this? Rarely do people though, I saw this thing I was excited about or I'm excited about doing this. - Right. - Which does bother me. The how many times in practices people are coming to solve problems? - Yeah. - As opposed to exploring, pushing and exploring. - And it's a little bit, it's a view of practice as an addendum to class. - Right. - Of like, hey, my teacher gave me this note and doing this thing, make me better. - Right. - Rather than, oh, this is our other thing. - Right. - We had this, this is just free studio time. - Right, you have now two to three hours to do whatever you want. And you're with a, it lets us like a practice group for a class. - Sure. - Which is something else. - Yeah. - Which is, yeah, there, you're gonna, right, represent. - God, this is the, your indie team should be the time, we're, or even your house, you should be your house team too. Should be the time where you're like, let's push, let's do explore. - Even, not necessarily push, like you don't have to reinvent improv. - Yeah. - But do the thing you always want to try. - Yeah. - And feel open about saying, this is something I've always wanted to try. Even if it's super specific. - That was Chris Scott. Now here's Jenny St. Angelo. What are some of the things that, as you started to coach, you realized this was something that, you wanted to get better at. - In terms of how I coach, or, okay, I think it being able to look at very talented people, be funny, but still working really hard, and figuring out, okay, it's a funny scene, it's successful in the sense that we're all laughing, but they had to work hard to get there. - Right. - How do we make this easier on you, so that your natural funny ability can come out without you having to, like, muscle through it? That's been, that was like one of the big first things, was figuring out, 'cause I coach a lot of really funny people. It's almost easier if someone's really, really bad, because you can go, oh, let's just work on agreement. That's a very simple, basic thing, but when a lot of those skills are in place, and the scenes are still might be hard, or you're overthinking, or you're getting stuck in some way, I think that's always been the fun challenge as a coach that I've wanted to get really good at, being like, I see, like, oh, in this moment, you just didn't make eye contact, so you missed this moment, right? Like, oh, cool, are you checking in with your partner, or whatever, like, the small stuff is to make, to release the blocks. - That was Jenny SanAngelo. I love that idea of making it easier on the players. You're not there to give sage advice from on high. You're there to help them out, make their lives as improvisers easier and better. Up next is Liz Nooth. - I think the hardest thing coaching is dealing with, like, ambivalence. (laughs) - Ambivalence in, improvisers or in yourself? - In both, showing up, making sure you're showing up with an open heart and empathy to help. And then also, when people are having, like, a difficult week or difficult moments, or maybe they're feeling like they're not sure if they want to be there, and it's clear to other people, which everybody, you know, we've all had weeks like that. That's definitely the hardest. It's just, like, moments where people feel maybe less eager to do the work, or over it. (laughs) That's hard to navigate. When you give an exercise suggestion and somebody's size, and like, oh, we have to do five minutes of that. That's really hard. That's hard. - Noticing somebody's sion is such a very, like, coach thing to do, 'cause I feel like we're like, sitting in this chair and we're like, acutely aware of every, like, emotional cue coming from all, like, eight or however many people. - Yeah. - Yeah, just like navigating that of, like, when do I need to back away from it, and when do I need to, like, push into it? I find very difficult. - Yeah, me too. And maybe that's not the best answer to your question. Like, when people have bad days and are mean, but it is-- - Because a lot of people do just come in and like, okay, we're gonna work on game, do a bunch of sets. Okay, great. Where's my money? Let's go. - Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's fair to have a really bad day. I remember I was coaching a team, I really love an indie team. And a girl, there was like, went to the day that Harris Whittles died. I didn't know a lot about Harris Whittles at the time, and she got like a notification on her phone. And it was like somebody who was hugely influential to her. And I didn't know what to do. And in retrospect, now I know, like, if something happens during a practice, like, you gotta take a break. But I was like, let's push forward. It was like, totally, a huge lack of empathy. So like, having empathy for where people are at, exactly. Having empathy for when people argue notes with you to just realize, okay, this isn't a bad person. Like, they're in an emotional state right now where they feel defensive about their move. And they wanna make sure that they feel a sense of belonging. That's the challenge for me. It's just like not villainizing people for having a bad moment or a bad reaction or a bad attitude in that day, because we've all had that. - How do you handle when somebody does like, push back with notes? - I definitely try to compliment the person because chances are if I'm giving you a harsh note, I believe in your ability, which I think is true of the coaches that I've had coming up. So I definitely try to like, build up that person. And then I just say, like, take it or leave it. If it happens a lot, I will just very directly say, like, it's not helpful to argue back notes. It's just not helpful. If you have an opinion, if you disagree with something, like, truly what's best for you is to think about it in your head and think, I disagree with this. And then, you know, not take the time to argue. You know, it's just like, oh, that person is a different opinion than I do. I disagree with what they're saying. You have every right to disagree with me. I've disagreed with plenty of the coaches that I've had. And the whole point of this thing is really notes, right? The whole point of having a coach is getting honest feedback. - That was Liz Nooth. Learning how to receive notes is a huge part of becoming an artist in any discipline. Any time you disagree with a note, give yourself some time to set it aside and then come back to it and ask yourself, is this note actually correct? Do I think the note is wrong only because I want it to be wrong? Or because it's wrong? If you still think the note is wrong, ask yourself, what made the coach think that? Was I doing something else that led to that note? This happens, for instance, a lot in writing. You'll get notes back from people who say, oh, you never described the doctor's office, even though there's a half-page of description of the doctor's office. So the note is objectively wrong because they're saying you didn't do something that you did, but it's also not wrong. The person reading that didn't register your description of the doctor's office, which means that there's something lacking in that. That happens a lot in scenes. You'll get the note, you didn't justify this and you think you did. Then in that case, maybe your justification wasn't clear, like you may have set it too softly or set it over somebody else's line. It may have been something that the coach didn't think really justified your behavior. In which case, if you hear the note, you didn't justify it and you know you did, ask yourself, did I? Or I did, but it didn't make it clear, which means the justification didn't do the work that it should have. It didn't tell the audience, the coach, that this is why they can have fun doing that thing. So even if a note is wrong, ask yourself, what can I get from that? In improv, often if you get that note that you think is wrong, it's because you emphasized something wrong. It is still an actionable note that you can use to make yourself better, even if it's not factually correct. For more on notes, here is Lugansolas. Figuring out your voice, I think a lot of people who take classes have an agenda and they don't see the forest beyond the trees. They're just like, I want to get good at this thing. And so your focus is to get good and so therefore you're going to be harder on yourself. You're going to be critical and you're going to read every note that a teacher gives you as fact. And I just want to let you know that not every note that you get is a good note. I would say for 30 to 35% of the notes that I give could be thrown in the garbage, just like any teacher because you are approaching it mostly from your mindset and what you see. I don't know what Santa's students had while they're doing it, but I don't have the time to do that breakdown. But I'd love to at some point. I'd love to like with the team and just be like, hey, what are you? Let's really break this down. Let's figure this out because I think it's a waste sometimes when I'm coaching to just give like these superfluous notes. And I give them because I'm like, I don't know what else to give. But I think the most positive moments I have is it was like, OK, let me just tell you some shit. Let me just drop some shit on you right now. I feel like those are more positive because it's just like, OK, they feel more relaxed, more comfortable to be themselves. The worst note or the note that I'm very tired of hearing being given to other people is the like, you should play more characters, which always feels like a not note. Like I've just kind of like, oh, I don't know what to say to you. So I'm just going to say-- I also wonder what is the impetus of that note? Because I feel like some notes are given. And I think the person giving the note is valing it under something. Yeah. I feel we're doing a disservice to people not being honest with them. I'm not interested in getting you to hire me again. I have no interest in that. I think I have a luxury that I don't have to use coaching as an income. And so it's just one of those things where it's emotionally draining coaching because you're investing. in a person in the moment and you're in the scenes with them. But I think you get more positive results that way. - Yeah. It takes a while to get past that point of looking for the like affirmation wanting to get hired back. But because you're in a very weird position of, oh yeah, you guys are going to pay me money. And if you like me, you'll bring me back. But if I give you notes that you might need, some people just don't react well to that. - Some people don't react well. Yeah. - Some people don't react well to notes. Also, certain people don't vibe with teens. And that's fine. Like there are certain people who I think are incredible. Coaches that just didn't vibe with the manicure or more just didn't vibe with a loiter. Harold team that I was on and that's fine and that's okay. We just have to be aware enough to just say it. - Yeah. - You know, I'm a very direct person, positive or negative I just am. But it's made my life easier. Like you know where I stand. But also there are ways of saying things. (laughs) As well as like, hey, don't be a prick about it. - Right. - You want to be able to tell someone something, but not in a matter that's insulting or degrading, you know, have empathy. So there's that whole balance. Right now like, you know, I'll sit in and coach Harold or a loiter team. And I can see certain people are just not vibing with a note that I'm giving while other people are. - Yeah. - And then it's really like, okay, which one of you is gonna speak up on how you feel about about that? And when is and how is that gonna impact? Because I've had teams ruined because someone doesn't like a coach. - Yeah. - That everyone else likes or vice versa. Sometimes you just gotta take the bullet. There was a time with Manigan, when we had a coach that I wasn't necessarily vibing with. But the others were. And so I'm like, okay, cool. As long as they're doing it, I can still do me and know that these notes don't impact me or hinder my development as an improviser. - Yeah. - It's hard to have that assurancing yourself though. - And it's also, it's connected to the whole like, disconnecting coach team hierarchy as like, some people are like, they never wanna be coached for their peers or like, who they view as peers. And that kind of thing and it becomes much more of like, oh, I need a guru giving me this like, the will hinds advice that changes. Instead of just like, oh no, this is another human being who's making their best guess. They're often very educated guess about what it is. But yeah, it's fine to like take or leave what they give. Take it all in and listen to it and see how it affects you. - I mean, the reason why I liked Will wasn't because he was a guru is because he talked to me like I was a peer. - Yeah. - Well, well, it was like, what do you guys think? - We had that one class where he was talking about pattern game and he had this whole like long speech of like, I want you guys to do this, this. We did it and it sucked. - It sucked, yeah. - And then he was like, I'm gonna get up and try it with you guys. And then he like did it and he was like, yeah, I'm gonna change this a little bit. - Yeah, I think it's also, the coach is like, well, how invested do you want to be in this? - Yeah. - How much time do you want to spend thinking about this? And I think each person has their own level to that. And I think, I don't think there's any wrong or right. I think there just is. And so anyone could learn from anyone. You just have to give them the opportunity in the space. And so like the whole peer thing is more ego driven. It's definitely ego driven. It has nothing to do with any validity whatsoever. It's just you don't want to hear from someone who you possibly think you're better than telling you what to do. That's what it is. That's really what it is. It's just, it's ego and it has no place. For me, it has anyone who brings up things like that. I was like, well then you have no business doing this. I'm sorry. 'Cause ego, like take your ego and throw it out the door because you're going on stage playing pretend, motherfucker. What are you, who are you trying to impress? Who are you trying to impress? I don't get it. I really don't get it. Why is this, you know, especially it used to be too with a whole hierarchy thing. I'm on the weekend, so fucking wild. 'Cause we were around for a while before we got on teams. And it kind of made it by default getting on a team or even like for me being on like a bunch of indie teams was like, oh it's always going to be in my peers or people who've been doing it several years before me. But because it's not like this person is better than me. This person is better than me. It's like everybody has their different thing they're good at. It was always like, oh I'm going to steal something from this person. I might not improvise in the way that they do, but there's going to be something. And we all learn from our peers. We all learn from our peers. We just learn from them by watching them perform. If your ego is going to come up and something so small as a coach, then I know it's coming up in performance. And I know it's coming up in day to day activities. And I, listen, ego is part of just who we are. And so, but if yours is so bullshit that that's a problem for you, then go away. You know, just go away. Go away and do your one-man show. Because that's what you want. That was a loo. For more in getting coached by your peers, here is Sebastian Cannelli. Because almost anybody in anyone in Lloyd and beyond. - Yeah. - And almost anybody probably in advanced study knows enough, like we're all pretty much on the same page with like 90% of it. Yeah. Some of us may be better at like articulating it or no better exercises to like get at that. But most of us, yeah, we're just that outside view. And it is like usually it's just the honest feeling that you had after the scene. I didn't know how you felt about her. - Yeah. (laughs) - And like literally anyone off the street could kind of if they thought about it for a second and just went with their gut, it would probably be the right note a lot of the times. Even justification, I think a person would be like, "Why are we doing that?" - Yeah. - I guess improv rules, they kind of reverse engineer like what they felt like the scene, like, "Oh, I liked it except this, I didn't know." You know, and then they like kind of work exercises like that. But just to get eyes on the scene and get notes like after a show, I think that anyone could kind of like at a certain level do that. - That hierarchy view, I find so strange. And maybe it's just because I've been around for a while and I don't really have a set, these are my peers, these are not, of course it blurs. - It blurs and it doesn't really make any sense to me, especially as somebody who tries to steal from everybody. - I want those like different views. - I know. - I don't get it. I do think it's younger students. I think that the more you mature, the more that you realize, "Oh, this person's good." You know, this person's great too. I think there is a lot more like, "Harrow Knight People, Coaching, How Knight People." When in the past, it was weekend team people, "Coaching, How Knight People." Which I think is actually great. Who knows how, and I better than how, and I better. - Exactly. - Who knows, it better. Like, I think that's the way it should be. It should be someone, they're in the trenches then and they're experiencing it too. And they're doing their three hour rehearsals. They're working on something. Your guys are working on something. They probably have a better understanding of the Harold than a weekend person in a lot of senses. 'Cause I'm on the weekend. I don't do a Harold. - Yeah. - Fuck, I don't do second beats. You kidding me? It's like, we just blow everything out. - Yeah. - That was Sebastian Cannelli. Now, here's Ray Cordova. - There are people who are like, they can't wait to coach. And they're coaching like, you know, and they just gotten to advance. - Exactly. - Or like, or they just pass for all. When they're even short, they're in a vanishing. And they're like, I'll get a message like, this person wants to join in proff coaches or whatever. And I'm like, "Hey, Ray, do you think I'm just like, "I'm like, yeah, I'll be happy to help." But I'm just like, in my mind, I'm like, I don't like speaking for myself. I never wanted to coach. And I'm saying, and you don't have to be on a house to even coach, but I will say like, my mind was just like, I'm not comfortable helping anyone with the Harold. If I can't even get a call back for a Harold audition. Now just how, that's how I felt about myself. So I see people who were like, oh, I'm coaching now. I'm just like, wow, that's great. I never, I think for me, I felt like, if I can't really get a hold on this, I don't feel comfortable helping someone else get a hold of this shit. You know what I mean? But people are out there just coaching and they're like, and they're charging too. And I'm like, oh, okay. When I, I think when I first, first of all, the first time I ever coached, I did it for free. 'Cause I didn't trust, I didn't know. I didn't want to be bad and they paid for it. So the first time I did it was for free. Actually, a good friend of mine who I got into in proff and he had a practice group and I coached them. And the first thing he said was, never do this again for free. So I was like, cool. Yeah. I was like, I didn't want to charge a lot. 'Cause I was like, I don't know. I don't want to mess up someone. But it's amazing how much you learn on that side of it too, because I coach. Shout out to Classy Brady, who I coached for like eight, nine miles. I'm like, I definitely, well, it's first month or two. I definitely got on my coaching home as far as like, finding my own style and, and, rustily with like, do I have side coach, do I not have side coach? How much do I have side coach? And yet, you seem like you have to read the room. 'Cause there's some people who just don't like it. And there's some who absolutely need it. So, you know, and you know that, you just have to kind of feel out different students and hold your coach and all that. That was Ray Cordova. Again, no one tells you when you're ready to coach. You have to decide that for yourself, and everyone is gonna make that decision a little bit differently. If you think you're ready, and other teams think you're ready, then great, you're ready. But if not, don't worry about it. Keep practicing, and you will become better, and you will know when it's time for you to start coaching. Up next is Nicole Dresswell. We had talked a bit before about Brandon Scott Jones, who coached Nicole's team Bucky. What makes somebody a good coach? You mentioned some of the things you liked about, like Brandon, for instance. - Yes. - So, what made Brandon Scott Jones a great coach? - For Brandon, it was investment. It was investment and intelligent enthusiasm. - Intelligent enthusiasm? Or, okay. - Yep. Because he was at every show. And I've been on earlier teams, where it was like, you would think people would be excited to coach any teams, maybe that's naive. But like, we could not get coaches to show. - Yeah. - And Brandon, who like should have been done with Harold Knight. like he was. allowed to punch his card. Was there every week for us? And then for the year after, they're every week for the regulars, which is huge. And when I say intelligent enthusiasm, I mean, like he laughed at things, he was excited about us. He felt like he was a part of the room, but it never felt fakey or condescending. It felt like he could always back up like why he was excited about something or why something was fun. And I think that's really, really valuable. Yeah, I think that those are some of the things that made him great. Enthusiasm seems like it would be easy, but it really is the toughest part about coaching sometimes. Well, especially intelligent enthusiasm, because I do think it's easy to like fake laugh or like fake that you're excited or coddle. Like all those things are totally doable, but to do it in a way that is like on the level, it's hard and it's taxing, it's emotionally exhausting. I won't coach an indie team that I'm not excited to go be in a room with because it's hard. Coaches really, really hard. Let's talk about the emotional part because I think that is a part that people don't talk about. And I don't think I realized how much until I started coaching a house team, especially pretty regularly. Because you can't, not you, but an improviser can't tell what's making a good coach good. And also like, I think a good improviser suspends their disbelief no matter who the coaches. A good improviser when a coach walks in the room will assume that the coach is right about things and intelligent about things, which means that like you could coach and like not be emotionally invested. And like people might on the other side of it might not know that that's what's going on. But for great coaches, yeah, it is an emotional investment. Like you're there every step of the way, thinking, rooting for them, problem solving the Harold while you're watching it, while also trying to enjoy it, which are two difficult things to do. And also trying to put your head hopefully in or put your brain in the head of every improviser, which is like, okay, well, I know, so and so should be grounding. But is there a reason why they're not making the choice to grant? Oh, you know what? I keep giving them the choice to roll with the unusual thing. So now they're under reacting to it. So when I tell them that what it needed was more reacting, I need to frame it in the way of like, I know why you didn't do it. I know what was going on in your head. But here's like the pendulum swinging the other way. That's hard if you're doing it. That's really hard to do it for an extended period of time. It's fucking fucking impossible. If you've been doing improv for 10 years and you don't care about the people you're in a room with, you can't do it. I can't do it. I could not show up in coach. People that I didn't probably like, I would say, I'm coaching, I'm wrapping up coaching. But for the 14s, I'm coaching right now. The vast majority of them have people who it's like, "Oh, if you needed it, I'd adopt you." And if it doesn't, it's like too hard to do. Yeah, exactly. Every show I watch when it doesn't go well, my assumption is it's, I'm a bad coach. Yeah. I failed some way. And when I'm doing a herald, any show that doesn't go well, I think I failed the coach. Like it's so one, it's all, it's so egocentric in one side of that. I remember there was something else that I wanted to say Brandon Scott Jones did really well, which is like, he was the ninth presence in the room, but not the ninth member of the team. And I don't know that I'm even articulating that, right? But what I mean is it really felt like a lot of why Bucky was good as due to Brandon Scott Jones, a lot of it. But at the time, it did not feel like if we were in a room without Brandon, we wouldn't be Bucky. And he did that to be 100% in the room, but not make yourself the ninth member of the team is really big. And I don't know how to do it. I can't do it. I'm as a coach, like I constantly want to be the ex member of the team. And I think the ability to do that is what makes a coach really spectacular. Like we were okay when Brandon left. We were unchanged. You put us in a really good spot for a year and are able to be Bucky forever and ever and always. And I don't know that I could do that for a team. I think I make I'm too codependent. And I think that's part of the like if you're in the booth like making it about you, not that that's what you're saying, but I do that. Like I live and die by it. I fucked up. I should have been working on this with them. I whatever, it takes something away from thinking of the team as its own thing. And I don't know how to get that in check. And I may not coach or teach long enough to know how to get that in check. But I think if you can, like you are the greatest. It's such a tough just balancing act to do. Yeah. Because you have to invest so much while still you guys have this. Right. It's like you need to be as quiet as possible and then find those things where, oh, I'm just laying out this. Now you guys keep walking. And maybe it's like being an uncle not a dad or an aunt, not a mom. And I don't know how to set that like I'm invested. I care about you. I'm fully here for you. But like you're not mine. And I don't, I'm not yours. Like how, you know, an aunt's not yours. Yeah, exactly. But a mom is what are some other things that you have stolen from great coaches you've had in the past that you were like, this is something that I saw somebody else do that now you try to embody when you coach a team. That's a good question. Can I worry that like when I was being coached, I was so not I worry. I know beyond any doubt when I was being coached, I was so desperate for approval moment to moment that I did not take in any of the experiences I was having. So there are not like concrete things that I could observe because I was not observing my coaches. I was just reading them for approval. How does that change? Because I think I'm very much the same way. And so I'm very cognizant of whom have I complimented for what things in every practice for that same reason of like I know even just pointing out that, Oh, Hey Brandon, you made this great move here. Great. Oh Rachel, you saw this because I remember getting feeling those little scraps and they were feasts to me. Yes. I remember once going in to teach, maybe it was a two on or it was a 401 class. And just having a flash of remembering how desperate you were for a win when you started a class. It felt like I can't start learning until I know I've gotten a win under my belt. And a win is just like a scene that you convince yourself went well enough that like people in the room have seen you do better work. And like suddenly being aware that like, Oh my god, I'm a bachelor walk into a room with 16 people who all need a win was like, I can never think about this again because like, I just feel sucked dry immediately. The like badness that I feel for them for what they're feeling right now. But yeah, being conscious of like, I don't want to be that much harder on this person because I haven't given them good note in a little while. So I need to look for something that they're doing and like really build it up is definitely something that I'm conscious of. Do you have a rule about how long you'll coach a team for or anything like that? I feel like anything past a year is your it sort of starts to become unfair to the team. Unless at that year mark, you're doing something really cool that is new to you and new to them. I think a year is probably the longest. I'm been fortunately in that like circumstances either classes that I'm teaching or things that I have to do sort of bring things to natural conclusions before I have to start thinking about that. But like I remember with former business partners coming up on a year or maybe longer and being like, I need to stop coaching this team because the practices don't feel like practices and I'm taking their money and it's not. But like I can't make them itself not want to show up. Hang out with them. Yeah, that was Nicole. Now here is Ray with a bit more on investment. We just do a group on one off or a week or two or a few weeks. It's different than when you dedicate a soul to a team for like you know this is the long hole. Yeah. And you know that they have these goals and you have these goals for them and you do it. I think people think they pay you for that hour and that's it. But it's like if you're if you're working with someone for the long haul, I don't have a natural library of things. So I see something that your your teams have fought with. I've researched things to help with that. It's very emotionally draining. Oh yeah. Well, we yeah. I'm coaching two Lloyd teams right now and they perform an alternating week. So you're there every week. Exactly. But it is like the part about it's way more than those three hours. It's this little mole skin right here. I use both for this podcast and I woke up at 6 a.m. the other day like last week and I had ideas for like this is what I want to do with 17. This is what I want to do with Judy Bigmouth. And it was just it hit me up. This is what I need to work on with each of them. Yeah. And it's very rewarding. I hope. Oh yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. But there is that feeling of if these weren't two teams that I really enjoyed coaching and that had very distinct different aspects that I can work on each one with. Yeah. It's too much. It's so much. Even just coaching one team, it becomes you're worried about it. You're constantly feeling are they getting better? Yeah. I help you. You put it on yourself. If you find that if you find they don't feel good, you instantly don't feel good. Yeah. Like it's on you. That was Ray. The next episode is going to go more into coaching house teams and being coached while on a house team. But finally here is a bit more from Lugansolas. As a coach, my job isn't to make you do the best version of the scene. I would have done. Yeah. My job is to find out what it is that you're seeing. And that's the trick of coaching because you can't it's easier to do it to people that line up with your way of thinking. It's very it's hard to do it when someone's not lining up with your way of thinking. It doesn't mean that they're bad player or you're a bad coach. It just means that there's a disconnect somewhere and your job as a coach is to figure out what is it. That's tricky. Yeah. Because I had I had a couple I had a couple people like that in my 101 and I just had to like dig through the ball shit to like okay, that's why you're this way. Cut it out stop. Right. Cut it out. You're fine. That was Lug. If you think you're ready to coach, try it out. Becoming a better coach made me a better improviser. Seeing things that other people did well or not well and quickly diagnosing them made me able to do the same thing while inside scenes. When I'm in an improv slump, I find it's often because I've stopped doing the very things I tell other people to do. Just Ciccification, commitment, so on and so on, and watching other teams and having to say in a brief form, this is what I want you to do, made me codify even more succinctly my beliefs about comedy and about in-breath. And know that coaching is an investment. It's an emotional investment and it's a time investment. If your emotional reservoir isn't full enough to take on another team, then don't. Take a break, coach less. I've taken about almost a year off from coaching and it's helped a lot. That's partly due to time and money. I can make more money working than I can coaching and I've decided to spend more of my free time writing than coaching. But it's also because I coached a lot of great house teams and then I needed some time not doing that at all. Right now I get to coach here and there for fun which is a lot better for both me and the people I'm coaching. Finally, one last thing. If your coaching, talk to other coaches. I was very lucky in that I was roommates with Nicole Drespell and Chris Scott who are two of the best coaches in New York City. We spent so many nights talking about problems we had with teams and how we dealt with them or asking each other how we could deal with them. We would talk about new exercises we'd tried. That made all three of us better and it was also really fun. Nerdy fun but still fun. Coaching part two should be out in mid-January. As I mentioned earlier, I had a lot of production help with this episode from Alejandro Cardona who did a first pass on the massive amount of audio for this, cleaned it up and gave me a lot of feedback on what to use and what could be skipped. He has started a YouTube channel of video essays called Curio essays. All one word. You can find it on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and Reddit. His first video essay is a history of presidential impersonators and it's great. So check it out. That was episode 22. Coaching part one. Please rate and review the podcast on iTunes and if you have any feedback for me, please send it to [email protected]. Our ETHERFORD.com. Also if you want to help pay for the hosting costs for this podcast, you can do so via my Patreon. Patreon.com/actuallycurtis. Thank you so much to everyone who's already done so and thanks to everyone who is part of this episode. Build a Piero. I am Achilles Stalmatolachee. I am Lily Doe. Devon Ritchie. I am Chris Scott. Hi, I'm Jenny Siniangelo. Liz Nooth. Lugan Zalas. Sebastian Cannelli. Ray Cuerdova. Nicole Dresspell. Alejandro Cardona. And I'm Curtis Leatherford.