We used to be over 7,000 people, and we're now less than 3,000. And I didn't ask for a single dime to do all this. And the reason for that is because I've seen the acceleration of AI, and I know we can ship all these things on the existing organization. We've gone from 7,000 people, we're now below 3,000. We've shrank 50%. This is what I sign up for. It is stressful. It was hard as hell. But this is what I wanted. The next thing that's going to hit everyone bad is the switching cost of data. This is 20VC with me, Harry Stabbing. Now we have an incredible episode today. Seb from Clon is probably one of the leading figures in how to implement and use AI effectively to shrink headcount and make your business way more efficient. This was one of the most wide-ranging conversations we've had. Seb was just awesome in the studio. It's a fucking great show. I love doing it. He was incredible. Let me know what you think.
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I'm telling you already, dude, where the fuck is value in a world of anthropic and Claude code wiping billions of dollars off a stock market? How should I think about that? You should think that cost of creating software is going down to zero. And that means that everyone will be able to generate software at any point of time. So it is a massive change. And I was 100% convicted about this already when I saw this one or two years ago. So I've been very clear to me. If the cost of software creation is going down, how do we determine which businesses have sustaining value versus which do not? So the key thing right now is so far, the only thing that's gone down to, or not to zero yet, but become extremely much cheaper is the generation of software. Because so far what you're seeing is you have proprietary data stuck in, for example, the CRM vendor or the other software as a service that you're using currently. So you may replicate and build the same dashboard, or build the same processes in your own tool, but all your data is in there. And then you're going to do that. What's going to happen is people are going to start solving that problem. How do I get all of my data from the existing vendor and move it to the new vendor with the help of AI through one click? That brings down switching cost and that's when the real threat to SaaS comes. So we had a niche from Andrews on the show on that GPs and he said agents in particular would dramatically reduce the friction of switching. Yes. Is that the method of which you're talking about, which will allow for this migration to happen? That's exactly what's going to happen. It's going to happen. It's happening already. If that is the case, should ERPs and service now and sales forces not be dramatically threatened? I think the stock market woke up to that in the last few weeks, right? It's not like any business is going to disappear overnight because people tend to stick. They have used these things for a long period of time. They like them, etc. The question is what multiples should they trade? And if you look at historically software could trade at a price to sales, I'm not going to take price to earnings because some of them are in profitable, so it's not an easy way to compare. But if you do price to sales, they've been trading at 20, 30. And now they're down at 5, 10. But if you look at utilities, normal companies that are more utility, they may trade at 1 to 2. So from that perspective, you would argue there is still some unfortunate potential to go down even further. Look at Cheg in the US, right? They're now trading at 0.2. Chattcheap AT was seen as basically wiping out their business a few years and now they're trading at a depressed value. And now the revenues also coming down, actually 34% last time I checked. Is that going to happen? I don't think so. That's probably 2 extremes, 0.2 would be very extreme for some of these companies. But is it likely they could come down to 1 or 2? Yes, I think so. My question is here, so that's this kind of consensus from all investors, which is always a worrying thing. But if you think that we're really going to buy a total of these tools internally, you've never worked in a big organization. The permissions, the hierarchy that is used with the implementation of these tools, we are not going to see large companies vibe code mission critical systems and they will keep the largest systems of record. How do you think about that when David says that? No, I understand some people over that opinion. I am not. Because I think one thing is also like currently the way AI set up and I've already started seeing people doing this differently. But one thing is, right now AI is allowing us to reinvent the wheel all the time, right? If you come in and say I want to write this piece of code, somebody else prompted the same AI, the exact same thing somewhere else, we're still using tons of server power to do generate the exact same code. What people is going to start realizing, why? Why don't I cache these things? If I'm getting the same question, if I'm getting the same, or why don't I use existing open source components and reuse software? What if software becomes more like Lego pieces that you put together that perfect? It's going to be more and more efficient to just bundle things together. And this also means that things like what you're talking about is production ready, security is short and all these things, they will become more and more standardized building blocks. And I'm thinking that if you're not sure AI was even going to code that much, it's just going to pick some pieces together and stitch them together to come to what you really need, which also actually means less needs for compute. The other argument is enterprise software spans about 8-12% of company budgets. And you look at that and you go, well, hang on a minute, our core business is X. Why the fuck are we building a Monday replica or a you name it replica? That's not our core business. Why spend the internal resources on it? How do you justify that man? I think that's to some degree correct. But like, funny, the same weekend that this whole Claude bot thing exploded on X. I was actually sitting myself and playing around with a project, which I was just calling company in a box. And the idea was just, I just wanted to test it a little bit. And the idea was to do very similar what Claude bot did, but for a small company. And I just put like a small workspace in there was accounting. And in that I put an open source accounting software. And then I put like a CRM and I put an open source CRM. And then I put the Claude agent on top of that. And then I told my Claude agent, hey, can you book keep this invoice for me? Or hey, can you set up this customer account for me on top of that software, right? And it worked really, really nice, which I just wanted to test the idea. Because the point is that, and that's actually where it's also,
So I see the risks of even more jobs being threatened because to some degree if I'm a small company today Then I may have an accountant firm that's helping me with accounting and those are the ones I would email like Hey, can you fix this invoice or how much money do I have on my cash? You know, what's the current P&L look like etc But now I have Claude as an accountant on top of the accounting open source software And then I'm just asking you like book keep this in you know book keep this invoice or check me my balance and it works really really well So I think I'm not saying I don't think the plumbing firm the electrician of the future will code vibe code is themselves Definitely not they will buy off the shelf products for this But the thing is the question is most of our ERP systems that we see today or software as a service Because coding was so difficult and hard are still fairly siloed They are not broad in their spectrum what they cover and the kind of winner of the future is much more likely to be extremely broad They're kind of coming with the Claude bot or a Claude bot of companies like those services That's how I think the future of that kind of things is it's different for a company like Lana because in our case To some degree this is the operating system of the company and what we realized when we looked at SaaS and all these things already two years ago Which is why we started closing down SaaS for us was because we need to provide our AI the best context We need to provide as good context as possible to be able to perform a job and if your data is separated in these silos a little bit in this Sass a little bit in that sass a little bit here. Here's all the project management stuff Here's all the product definitions here is the accounting stuff here is this here's that it's just harder to provide the appropriate Context right so to us it was like no we need to reimagine the tech stack with AI first being AI native and corporate AI and the terministic and probabilistic code into one text that it becomes the operating system of the bank And I think that that's like the future of larger enterprise and that's why to us we're very mindful like we do still use some SaaS For sure like we use Slack as an example today like you know, which is a Salesforce company, right? So that you should use slash work. Yeah, that's one of us. It's a good Yeah, we incubated it So you see what I mean. So it's just like for a large company. I think that like it's obviously not everyone needs to reinvent everything I don't think the plumbing firm will reinvent it. I don't think they're going to wipe that's not the point I think they will buy something that looks like Claude bot or company in the box kind of thing totally get you See how they're coming to compound startup and the benefits come from not having to integrate with 50 different providers So totally get that the agents not just make that easier though the agents not just make the data migration between different tools From third party providers were easier and actually we'll be looking at this going it was a ridiculous idea to ever think that we needed to own every part of every element Yeah, that's exactly you're exactly right. That's what it's gonna happen But if that's the case, why do you need to vibe coded it all yourself and build it all yourself if you were going to have agents that are able to move data between different products much more easily It depends on what kind of company you are as I said like if you are a plumbing company maybe Claude will offer a solution for all of this an anotropic or maybe there will be somebody else who kind of uses Claude and empowers this kind of Company in a box experience that I think is still the kind of unknown answer. We don't know what's gonna happen Custom support is one I just cannot get as a category because they've been 14 players funded with over 100 million in the last 15 months And then you have all the existing incumbents and then I speak to Ariel and Avon jacket out wallets and they're building their own Are you believe you are in custom you are? I mean we were one of the early ones right so we this is actually one of the things we were surprised But I think I announced already in 23 that you know our AI customer service had you know done the equivalent of 600 agents jobs And it it caught a lot of attention at the point of time now, you know Media was tends to like simplify these stories a little bit the truth was that at that point of time our customer service was doing very simple questions It's like hey did I pay clona? Yes, you did. Okay. Thank you, you know like so obviously that wasn't that hard to do But it's still like I mean to some degree a large company like ours What do we do we try to improve our product partially? We try to do that for fewer people to you know Contact us and ask hey it isn't working or I'm not I don't understand what I'm supposed to do Right, I mean part of it. You just want your product to be so good that people don't feel they have to do that So we've always tried to reduce customer service calls right the only to me shocking experience back then was that like We roll this thing out. We've rolled a lot of product improvements out. I've never rolled a product improvement out that instantaneously took away 600 you know the equivalent of 600 agents worth of work now because we don't hire these people ourselves They work for customer service companies. They just shifted and started working on it So fortunately in that situation nobody lost her job But it was still like an eye opener for us like wow and then the point is what you realize when you're early on that journey is Again, for customer service agents whether it's AI or humans for that sake for them to be able to answer questions really well They need as much context as possible. Where is that context? It's in the source code of your software How does clonac calculate interest? Well, we can have a documentation of that But at the truth is in our source code is somewhere deep in our source code with that interest calculation is actually explained right and documentation may be inaccurate So what you realize when you pursue this is that like customer service isn't just like hey, I need an agent that answers questions Sooner or later you wanted to read the source code and explain to the customer how it works You want them to provide as much context as possible to be able to give the right answers And that's when you start realizing that it's not something you in our case at least we come to the conclusion We cannot buy it off the shelf because it actually becomes part of our tech stack Will every large technology first company build their own customers poses? I'm not sure I think there will be no, I think obviously I believe that for clonac the right thing was to be early to Try to find what we can do with this technology and where it can bring us and I think it's it's going to be a competitive advantage over time to Incomments that haven't done that but a lot of incumbents will obviously procure fantastic AI customer service solutions in order to try to reduce the gap between what we're doing and they're doing so you know Who knows we'll see what happens, but in our case it was very evident that we needed to do this ourselves when you said this It was a brilliant headline. I was I sat from planer replace 700 Yeah, and it was a big for or my question. She was do you think that did more to harm or to help you because for me as a marketer I actually thought it helped you because it put you in a AI first CEO camp that very few public companies see you as a in yes But it's a good very valid question and one of the things we also realized is that as a Polish person I think when when things are about to change I look at them very cynically right like I'm just like okay This is what's happening. I'm not that kind of person that's like gonna try to gloom things over I'm like okay, this is happening. It's gonna be a big change to the world How do I adopt what do we do the best out of it? And I'm sure it's gonna come a lot of positive things a lot of negative things In this case also when we announced this we obviously had some people being very frustrated with us Like oh, you know, you're you're laying people off because of AI people were angry to some degree as well Yeah, and I respect that I understand why right and that's why a few months later We tried also to go out and say a different story you would tip back Yeah, we don't think so I think Bloomberg changed kind of the headline and then I got misinterpreted But what we were trying to say a little bit later honest it like to me as we explore this further We were like well, but to be honest if AI can do customer service It means it's gonna be the cheap customer service. It's gonna be the one that everyone gets because it's cheap and simple But as has always happened historically like when people started in factories making cheap clothing or cheap furniture We started appreciating artisan things We started appreciating an artist in coffee shop and artisan furniture that was done by artisans So we said the future of VIP experience will be the human connection the relationship and now we genuinely believe So we said we need to transform our customer service from thinking about it as like okay Yes, it's officially just like good customer service But to some degree when I kind of challenges internally I said look what I've seen has happened is also too much focus on cost There's been too much focusing that we have to rethink this and make customer service into this human part of a cloner is And make sure that we offer everyone who wants a human connection That's gonna be what VIP service looks like in the future like oh, I'm not dealing only with machines I'm dealing with a human. Yeah, that's what we think at least so that's the message we try to get out I can't really get you said but I'm sorry dude for being so blunt. Yeah That sounds bit Silicon Valley idealistic. Yeah, maybe what I mean by that is that most people are not actually as good as we think No, but often customer support is rolls way you're in there for a year or two and you move on yeah What you need is Seb I know that you have you know x number of kids and you often like travel here I thought about these three rationals for your romantic Valentine's Day trip with your wife That's a really thoughtful agent or person. Yeah, the trouble is most people are not that and it takes training Yeah, the development to get there the low skilled labor All of that and our social media marketing content creation that's low level is gonna be a roaded faster than ever before But you're right and that's exactly why we started chaining so one thing that we've done that has worked fantastic for us We were all in the South we started saying okay to your point If we looked at like these ages that we were hiring previously even through other companies We didn't really have a relationship with them. We don't know who these people were like someone that were great But it was like to your point a mix right and we said how do we create something very different And so what we started since then which has worked amazingly well And we were kind of just starting to romp it up is we actually Build like our own Uber model which means that we encourage today we recruit our own customers the most passionate customers That live in rural areas and so forth and we say hey do you want to work extra? Would you want to work part-time in our customer service and they actually just like somebody can go and drive an Uber for a while They can actually jump on and work for cloners customer service and these are our most passionate customer They love our products. They love how it works. They know cloners
in and out. And now they were earned extra money by actually working on our customer service. And obviously the MPS and the customer satisfaction of those interactions with our customers is through the roof. So we, to your point, we need to change. Not, and that was what we were trying, but it's like very hard in the Bloomberg article. Like I'm not going to blame the journalist. Like I think actually if you read article, the original article, it's actually fairly balanced. And it kind of tries to describe this. But then the headline is like, the rolling AI back, you know, and then the whole media circus go on. It's like, oh, Clana has just announced that they're rolling it back. No, that's not at all. But then truth is, no one reads the article anymore. He's just read the headline. Clana, see everybody. It's end of fine. Yeah. I was just laughing with them because like yesterday on X, somebody wrote like, Clana like Clana like company is going to offer by now, a pay later on rent. It was Clana likes was actually another company. But people didn't see that. They just say, Clana is going to offer by now, a pay later on rent. And then suddenly we're all over the press. People are calling us like, I just like, what are we going to do? Like it's just not true. I remember when I was called in an article for a teenager. Yeah. I was like, I think this is a broad spectrum of people right now. For a teenager me and Warren Buffett both have that in common, but I'll take it. I sat down with the team the other day. Our job is to find value and invest in amazing companies. I was like, if they sell per seat, we're not doing it. We need to replace jobs. Like labor displacement is what we're investing into. That's the only way that we can actually return the amount of money that we need to now to make funds worth it. Do you think that's fair? Unfortunately, I think that is going to happen. And I feel like Dario is one of few that actually is willing to stick up and say that officially. I feel a lot of the other executives of these big companies are getting nervous. They're seeing the negative backlash of talking about this. And then they're trying to portray something different. But I don't want to be one of them. I'm more in Dario's camp. I want to be honest about the fact that I do think there's going to be a very big shift. Now, in addition to that, then I think more like Elon that it might lead to a golden age of humanity where AI does more of jobs and more people can enjoy themselves and do other things that we can have a richer society. That is not an unthinkable outcome. It could be a positive outcome. It could happen. And I think it's not unlikely that it could happen. So I still am an optimist at heart. But I also want to be realists around what's going to happen in the shorter term. And it's going to be a lot of turmoil in this. When you said the statement about replacing 700 customers at a station at Sikana, what did you not know then that you wish you had known, knowing all you know now? Nothing. You haven't had anything that you've seen has changed your mind. You know what, Harry? Like in 2015, I sat down with my management team. At that point of time, we had been trying to compete with Stripe and Adian for five years. And we were like losing it. Like they were just crushing us. We were like, this is it. And Adian had just signed with Daniel X, Spotify, my neighbor. And I was like, this is over, man. Like we're not going to win in this checkout war. It's like payments worse. Forget it. So we're like, what are we going to do as a company? What are we going to do? And then we sat down as a team and we were like, what's the future of banking? So the future of banking is going to be some kind of digital financial assistant wakes you up in the morning say, I checked your mortgage. You're overpaying like hell. And I have renegotiated for you. And I can do all the paperwork. You just need to say yes to save 50 quid, right? And like that's the future of retail banking. And that we said in 2015, okay, so what does that mean for Klawana? We're like, hey, let's become your digital financial assistant. Let's be that assistant that saves you that time and money. And ever since that, it's been like where we're going. So all of these things now, obviously, I didn't predict the chat GPT. I didn't predict all this stuff happening. But that to me that we're going to become a digital financial assistant and we need the kind of technology AI is to accomplish that was, you know, crystal clear for me for the last 10 years. And I just been running down that path continuously. And to me, it's like self driving cars. We all know it's going to happen. And the first day was a huge hype. And every day we were reading his paper like, oh my god, it's happening tomorrow, tomorrow, everyone's investing in it's crazy. And then the hype dies away. But like I was always saying people asking me like, what do you think about stuff? And I was like, look, it's going to happen. My daughter is not going to get a driver's license. Do you think in your best position to do that? Like if you look at like the entry point and where you sit in the stack, I'll revolute not in a more strategic, better position to be that digital financial assistant than you. I mean, I love revolutes. I think Nick is a fantastic AI. I think it's an amazing company. Next to greatest here, I've ever interviewed. I'm supposed to terrified he's going to kill me. I love Nick. He's amazing. I've always felt very competitive with Nick. And, you know, and I think he feels competitive with me. We have a common friend who we talk to a lot about these things, which is funny. But the point is that if you look at it, Clona has 110 million customers worldwide. Revolute now has 65. I'm twice the size in number of customers, but the engagement that I have is not as high yet as it is with Revolute. So people may use us less frequently and for other things, right? So what I'm doing right now, what we're doing at Clona is moving from being kind of your infrequent payments solution to being your high engagement banking provider, right? That transition is going extremely well. It's going extremely well. It's accelerating. People are adopting our banking services at a very rapid pace. Do you look at Robinhood? I've had Vlad on the show multiple times. I think Vlad was astonishing. He's got a 11 lines of business that produce over 100 million and revenue. I think it's an incredible model for moving from entry product, the NPL or for him, frequency trading into the full start banking provider. Do you look at him and do you take lessons from that? Yeah, absolutely. But we all have different entry points. I mean, Revolute to some degree was like an early like, hey, I'm an ex-path. I travel a lot in Europe and like, this is better for my currency or I trading crypto. That was kind of the early adopter thing. I think, you know, Robinhood was like, I'm trading. I love trading. Klon is very different. Like our customers like, I shop online. I do shopping. You know, we skew more female than male. We have a very different brand. I would think of us more like a lifestyle brand, like a digital version of American Express. That's how I think about Klon. So, I think all of these growing fintechs, you know, I know David from New Bank since early days, right? Like have a funny story where like, I was down in Brazil, meaning David when he was just leaving Sequoia starting and you know, we had a fantastic conversation. We talked about the future of banking. And then he sends me an email which was like, hey Sebastian, would you like to like advise me a little bit? I'm starting this new company and I was like, I'm sorry, I don't have the time. So I lost out on a lot of a lot. I would have been a great angel investor there. But that's how life goes. Yeah, you know, that's how life goes. So anyway, so David, I'm not crying for you. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I don't think any more will cry for me over that. I will cry for myself. That's okay. I can fall asleep crying over that. But the funny thing is that like, so you have these fintics now who are actually starting to become really big. I mean, Revele is really big, clone is really big, new bank, you know, et cetera. So, but we're all coming from slightly different angles. We're all coming from slightly different. And now the people who are going to be threatened by this is the incumbents primarily. Like, of course, I'm going to partly compete with Revolute. I'm partly doing that already. But if you look at like, they're very big in Romania. Romania is not a big market for me, right? Like, I think there's the second largest market or something for me. If I look at like number of users, like, Romania is not a big market for me. You know, I'm very big in other markets. So, like, so that's going to differ, right? But whose market share are we eating? Barclays. Well, as far goes, capital one, those are the companies that we are going after, right? So, I don't really see there's a big conflict between us. It's more the incumbents that are going to lose customers. You expect my new bank and David? I love David. He's amazing. Fucking legend. But anyway, obviously, the digital banking license in the US and that very much aggressively planning the US is the US, the main goal fee. Yes. So, going back to the US, okay, sitting in London, I feel so special in you. No, but listen, it's like this. It comes back to what I said in 15, where like the future financial services is going to be this digital financial system. Okay? So, the next question is, who is going to participate in that challenge? And why would Clona stand the chance? There's those are the two questions we need to answer, right? And we say, well, first and foremost, there's going to be three types of company participating, the tech companies, Google Amazon, Apple, there's going to be FinTech, Revolute and so we didn't know I mean, that's why the Revolute hadn't even started, but we knew that we're going to come entrance and then backs, right? That was kind of our review. Okay, so like what's going to be critical for us to win in that big transformation? Global. We're here as first. If we're just big at that point of time, we weren't even in the UK yet. But like, if we're only in the Nordics and Germany, we're not going to have the scale to be able to win this big transformation that's coming. So we need to be global and global means US. Like if you're not in the US, if you're not big there, you're just not going to be big enough and the risk is you're going to get acquired by somebody in the US. So to us, like nailing US was like super high priority, super high priority. Second, we realized that data, the more I understand about you as a customer, the more likely I am to give you that advice that you said, hey, you know, you should pick up the flowers when you go there or whatever. So the key thing we saw is difference than revoluting all the others. We have our own payments network. Just like Amix, we have our own rails. Every time you shop with Lana, the information that flows on our rails isn't just the amount that you purchase for. It's the exact products. We have the full digital receipt. So we know you shopped at Sephora, but also what cosmetics you bought, Chef Sephora. And the benefit of that is if I'm then supposed to advise you on your purchases or your day-to-day finances, I just have much more richer information that allows me to provide you good advice. Oh, these contact lenses were really expensive. You can get them cheaper, etc. All right. So if I want to help people in their everyday spending, I have more information. So we said, understanding the customer depth is very, very critical and data was going to be very, very important. And so it was being global and having a good understanding of our customer and having a lot of trust and brand. The other thing was brand, build a brand that people relate to, that people feel emotionally connected to and not just like in utility, right? Create something different. I'm sorry, I struggle. I'm a proud European. I struggle when I look at the European neo-bank and I look at chime and I look at Dave and I look at all the other current. I mean, they're all a thought compared to the market cap of revenue right now. All whatever the private latest valuation with the market cap is a very different thing as you know as a public company. Why if the US is such a fun
has it been such a lackluster performance from their domestic participants? Well, partially because competition is better. If you take your AMICS app in the US and compare it to one here, it is significantly better there, right? Your JP Morgan app is significantly better. So the financial institutions in the US are just better. And the problem is that then people try to find an entry point that is public, for example, very big lending, and then they walk into a lot of subprime and they make huge losses. Or there are other things, right? So people struggle to find that entry point. But we have 30 million users in the US, right? Almost like I think it's 28 or something. So the bit soos is going to be 30. Our card is growing at a very rapid pace in the US. So your cool focus is, can I tell you how many 30 million users from BNPL and to cool customer account? Yes, and we launched a card in the US, and I have to be careful now because we haven't released the new earnings yet. I'll come in next week. So I have to use the Q3 numbers. But if I remember correctly, we're like a two, three million active card holders in just a few months in the US. So we are transitioning these BNPL data customers into full banking relationship customers at a very, very high pace. Totally, yeah. When you look at new bank and ravioli moving both aggressively in the US, if you were to put money on who's going to do better, who would do better? That's a good question. I think I have to go with David. Wow, why? Because I think Nick's challenge right now might be that he is so distributed. He's trying to go for the whole world. He's launching in Dubai, he's launching in India, he's launching everywhere. Banking is not your standard tech company. It's difficult. And so I just wonder if he's running out of bandwidth. I think it's more risky. David at least has slightly more focus. He has a very solid base in Brazil, making a lot of money from there. He has this Mexican thing and the other thing they are growing pretty good. But if he then does US, that's just one more big market. It's very different. Nick is so thinly spread right now. Question for you, which is you mentioned Stripe earlier in the competition there. You're a public company CEO now. I'm going to go there and you can do a note. I have so many public companies here. I'm never going to have a happy one. Never. Are you happy as a public company CEO? Happy is a strong word. No, but I think I need look. To us, it's like we have over the years so many shareholders, so many employees. Like at some point of time, it's actually easier to be public for us. We were already reporting on an earnings on a quarterly basis. We're a bank. So I'm not sure that the difference is that big, to be honest, from our perspective. So it is what it is. But yeah, I'm of course, if I could own the company 100%, then be private. I would prefer it, but that's not the reality. Do John and Patrick with Stripe have advantages that you don't have as private companies in their ability to invest in long-term, invest in R&D? Not think about next quarter quite so religiously. Historically, yes. But this has changed due to AI. One of the things I remember vividly is that when we came to the board and said that like the same plan that I said from 15, right, grow global, get customers across the board in all countries, and then once you have the love and affection of these customers and the relationship with them for day-to-day purchases, then go deeper with them, offer them more banking like services and increase the revenue per customer, right? So we had this interesting board meeting where we're like, okay, now it's really going to happen, guys. We are now going to truly start focusing on this transition from just single payments customer to banking. And we're going to launch peer-to-peer and we're going to launch potentially, which is also leaked to the press already trading. And we're going to do a lot of other banking services that we at that point of time didn't have. And we're going to increase the card, and we're going to increase balances and deposits, and we're going to do international remittances and all these things. And then the board looks at this, it's like, yeah, this kind of transition can be hard, it changes what the bank is for. We have this discussion. - An additive thought, thank you, board. - Yeah, but it's going to be hard, right? - Yeah, good shit. - Exactly. - But the funny thing, I went out and I was like, why was that so easy? - Like I was like, how come that went so easy? - Still, it makes me like, oh yeah, now I know why. Because usually when a CEO comes to the board and say, we're going to do all of these new services, we're going to launch all of this new stuff. Hence, I need to increase my investments and my cost. By a hundred million dollars if it's the size of our company to be able to do all of this. But I had to say, for the time we're showing them a budget. I mean, Clon has been shrinking. We used to be 6,000 or over 7,000 people, and we're now less than 3,000. And I didn't ask for a single dime to do all of this. We've shrank 50%. And the majority of that is just through normal attrition. Initially, when we had 2020, we did a little bit of layoffs, but that was not that big of a number compared to what has happened since then. So that was the reason. It was the reason was easy for the board to take the decision. So I didn't ask for a single dime in investments. It's 2030. How many employees do you have then? Less. For sure. 2000? No, I think it may very well be even less than that. No. Yes. But listen, again, relationship cannot be replaced. One of the strengths in 2035. Yeah. It's going to be the idea. Yep. I think that the one thing that's important for us is relationships. We have relationship with merchants as an example, retailers, and we have those relationships locally. So I have people in Portland talking to Nike. I have people in China talking to Sheen. I have people in Amsterdam talking to Adyen, etc. So we have over 50 locations where there's people. AI is not going to move those jobs. Like that we need. It's very important. The relationships with our partners and the same customer service. It's going to be, I'm still going to argue that it's going to be vital to offer a human connection there. So those jobs will remain, but for the rest, it's going to be definitely smaller. So we're shrinking through natural attrition with about 20% per year. It's just people leaving. They stay about five years and then they move on, which is natural. And then what we have said very clearly is that we're not going to recruit. So we're recruiting a little bit. People then came again on accident. Oh, it's not true. Look, they're recruiting. It's like, come on. Yes. Occasionally we hire somebody here and there. But if you look at the neck, you go to LinkedIn and look at the insights you're going to see how the company is shrinking. The point is that we've shrank 50%. But we also promised our employees, which is very important. We said, guys, this is going to mean we're going to do much more with much less people. This is going to make more profit for us. And you're going to share in that profit. So our employee compensation has grown almost 50% per head during the same time. So we have given a lot of that money back and that creates safety for employees. They know that like through this AI transformation, using these utilities, they are getting someone to benefit. Wait a question. How do you think about the current state of SBC, stock-based compensation from anyone, which is obviously how we dividend, what gives stops to employees? You see aggressive from open AI, arguing being white as Sam, give a shit if he doesn't have any stock. Anyway, dilution doesn't matter to him. Evan Speegl is the the gold father of SBC, astonishingly high amounts. How do you feel about the state of SBC? Well, I think it's very clear when we compare American companies to European companies, there's a huge difference. I mean, I think that American companies are five to 10x more than European companies do. And Clon, from that perspective, where European company, we have come from very low levels. We have increased because we need to stay competitive for talent and talent today can move between US and EU pretty easily with the help of companies. But I still think also the thing that's going to happen, there's been these industries, they're called tech and they're called fin, financial services. They have all had this amazing thing, which is that you create this service and there's a huge switching cost. So your customers can really switch that easily. And hence you create this money printing machine and then life is sweet. Right? And then you build these campuses and you play volleyball in your office and you go and get free lunches and you live off the spoils of this money printing machine and your basement. And that's not how normal business work. If you're in retail, if you're on a restaurant, you freaking wake up every morning and you ask yourself, how do I put the right product in front of the right customer, bring them into my store, so that I can actually sell them and make them happy. And so forth, you have to wake up every day and do care about that. And so the point is that this is going to be brutal awakening for fin and tech. That's what's going to happen to all of us. Like we're going to have to wake up every morning, make sure that we serve our customers, we work really hard and effortlessly to make them happy with what we're offering them. And it's not going to be what it used to be. And so I think that like share-based compensation as an example, like everything that was, was it really because it made sense or to what degree was it just the spoils? And I think of to some degree, sports, right? And some degree, it's irrelevant, like because some people can make a huge difference, but there's a balance between the two. There is an incredible number of incredible CEOs attacking the incumbent banks. What happens to BNP, ING 2035? I think so that again comes back to what we talked in 15. Our conclusion was there's going to be different. So what I thought was interesting, Solomon also recognized this at Goldman Sachs, so he created Marcus and then talking about public companies. The challenge was that when FinTech was like everything was high 2021, you know, valuations up, Marcus is the best thing a Goldman ever did. And then suddenly what ends up happening is, you know, Marcus turned and it's very hard for Solomon to defend Marcus. But the problem is like Marcus would have needed five, 10 years to fully mature. And when you're a public company, that's hard to defend. I don't know, maybe Solomon doesn't agree and he's like, I did the right thing and I changed it. But like in my opinion, he should have stick the guns to doing that. Jamie is now doing neo banking, he's going in, but he's going in a bit later now. And so you will see different banks. I think some of them will reinvent themselves, become neo banks, become tech led, use AI to like reinvent themselves. Some of
than will not and they will with their way, right? Like, which is always what's happening in the disruption of an industry. So it will depend on the leadership of those financial institutions. You said about 2021 and high value actions, high prices. I remember the round where you were done at 45. Yeah. By it was off-banging. No. It's not entirely true. That's also a little bit of media. But like, yes, there was there was some shares board at 45 as well. Yes, that's right. Knowing what you know now, are you happy you did that? And is there any you would have done differently? Yeah. I think that when you're in that kind of high growth face, one thing to keep a close eye on is your multiple expansion going faster than what your revenue is growing. If your revenue is growing faster than your multiples, then you're probably fine. But if you start seeing the opposite where multiples are expanding faster than revenue growth, that they potentially be a problem longer term, right? So I think today maybe that like I could have been more careful, specifically on the hiring side, because it was very sad and difficult to me to like a few quarters earlier be hiring at a high pace. And then a few quarters later have to announce layoffs that that I felt that like I should have predicted and been more cautious about. You mentioned the board meeting earlier where I was like, oh, that was kind of nice and easy with the expansion. You've got an amazing board. I'm not talking about board and any other capacity. I'm just talking about like a hard board meeting. Does Mike ever get angry by the way? No. He doesn't. No, I'm angry. He's not the word for Mike. I would reach it's bad if he was. No. I mean, it's actually it's less scary because he doesn't get angry. But he's like disappointed. Disengaged. Is the worst? Like the worst thing you don't want to get with Michael is disengaged. That's like the big war. He's never lay on the floor and pretended to sleep. No, but you know, I mean, yeah. He's so amazing. I love him so much. I think he's fantastic. But you obviously care a lot to make sure that like you want to see that he's engaged in that. Can I ask you what's been your biggest lesson from Mike and with him? Because you're like his chosen child in the nicest way. Look, I've worked with him so many. This is a funny story how we ended up working with him because at that point of time, Sequoia, it was a guy called Chris Olson, which is an amazing, still friend of mine, who was at Sequoia and he did kind of found Clona in Stockholm. He did try, right? Yeah, exactly. And he did the Clona investment. So, you know, there's just like this story where like I'm talking to this guy. I say, hey, do you, he was a guy in Stockholm that knew Sequoia a little bit. So I was like talking to him, hey, do you think that Sequoia could be missing, you know, interesting investing Clona? And he's like, no, that would never happen. And I was like, okay, fine. So we just talked to the European funds, which is like, it's not even worth, right? But I was still looking there in Google Maps. I was looking like Sandhilla Road and I was like dreaming, you know, could I have the chance to work with these guys? And then suddenly my phone is buzzing and I'm like, oh, I had a message. I was like, this is Chris Olson from Sequoia. And I was like, oh my god. So what I do is like, I know like, okay, this is like dating, right? I can't call back in three days. I have to wait, I have to wait three days before I call back. So I'm just sitting there like counting the hours. Like I cannot. I don't want to look too interested. Yeah, exactly. So sitting there and then I call Chris and we take a meeting and they get super excited. And we instantly wanted to work with Sequoia. We were like, they're the best. That's how we saw it. Like we saw this was going to be a huge, you know, brand uplift for a company. At this point of time, you know, Daniel Eck is Spotify is getting all the tech credibility. Like all the engineers in Stockholm wants to work with Spotify, Clona is some boring, invoicing company. People are like, what the hell is that? Like so we're like, we need tech, we need tech credibility, right? Sequoia is going to give us that. So anyways, what happens is little bit later on, Sequoia decides to make the investment. Chris flies to Stockholm and we had met Michael in a hotel breakfast here in London and then Chris comes and he makes this beautiful presentation, right? And the presentation is like, these are the Apple guys in the garage. These are the Google guys in the garage and these are the Clona guys in the garage. And you're going to be the next Google, you know, and we're less sitting there and they're like, oh my god, we're going to be Google. We're just like, we're buying it all. And then I feel afterwards like, this is not good. Like we have to do something cocky here. We can't just like, you know, just swallow this and be like, okay, please can we work together? So when Chris exits the room and he's just about leave, I say, Hey Chris, just one thing. If we are genuinely the next Google, how come you're the only one from the Sequoia partnership that's here in Stockholm today? And then Chris looks and he's like, oh, I'm so sorry. The other guys couldn't make it, you know, whatever. You have to remember, they invested, they took a 25% stake at a hundred million dollar valuation, right? They do a 25% stake. Yeah, at a hundred million dollar money. That was what the deal eventually did that. So Chris is like, I'm so sorry. We could I can make it and he goes into the elevator and literally 20 seconds later. This is so impressive. 20 second later, my phone starts bouncing and it's my commorts and my commorts is like, hey, I'm so sorry, I couldn't make the meeting. And if we get to do this investment, I'll join the board. So thanks to me saying that and being a little bit cocky and not being so freaking Swedish, we actually got Mike on the board. And then since then I worked with Mike and gotten to know him. The thing people don't understand with Mike is that like, Mike has this, you know, I always think that if for you to be really good, for you to really understand the topic, you need to be in every freaking detail. You need to read up a lot and he does. But the point is it's almost like sometimes I feel like he can just take this huge mass of information and he can like, without a second of thought, he's just that is important. And he just gets that at a level like other people are interacting with that. He's just brilliant at that. It's just amazing. He can like, he called me in 2019 in summer. I don't know why he called me, but he was like, and this was when we were we had been in the US for a few years. We weren't getting any traction. The business wasn't doing and then Nick, another Nick from off to pay in Australia was starting to get traction in the US with Binah Pellator. Michael just calls me out of the blue and just like, Sebastian, I think it's now or never. If we don't do US now, we're never going to do it. And I was just like, I don't know how the hell he knew that, but he was like so spot on. It was exactly the thing. And then I just dropped everything and I was just like, we have to win the US. And then I just spent the next two years focusing 100% on that. Do Sequoia moves the needle for a company? In my opinion, they do. Yeah. I mean, I think that I've been very impressed with all the people I worked with there. I think it's amazing. And there's a new generation now with Sonia and Andrew and the new guys coming. So like, it's a really cool path and Alfred, yeah, I think they're amazing. When you talk about the expansion of products, you've said obviously about kind of off to pay in BNPL. Got them in the end and trouble for this. I'm pleased to hear about the movement away from just pure BNPL because is that not just evidence that for all the people that said landings is shitty business to be and they were right? Landing, what does that mean? Well, like BNPL is a shitty business. Why would it be a shitty business? Oh, it's really hard to build like a 20, 30 billion dollar business on BNPL. Consumer landing is a hard business to do. Oh, consumer landing. Yeah. When I get a startup, pitch me consumer landing, I'm like, sorry. He's honest. He's the way I thought about this. Like when we started clawing on 20 years back, we were just like, okay, look, why are we not just making these banking products better working online because you got to remember in '05, the banks internet offering were shit. Did you know? It's like, they're all shit. So we were just like, okay, we're going to take some of the stuff that the banks do and we're just going to do it better online. We did that. And then that grew and we were successful. I mean, people don't know this, but we were, we raised $60,000 in our first angel investment, $30,000 of that was spent, and then we became profitable. And we were running this as a profitable company from '05 to '19. We had almost 10 consecutive years of high growth and profitability that actually got us like this reward because we were like only one of two companies in Sweden that ever had such a long streak of high growth and profitability at the same time. But what we realized also over time was suddenly, I'm sitting one evening and I'm looking at my P&L and I'm like, wow, what is that line? Oh, shit. That's late fees. That's a big revenue line. And I was like, that's not going to be long-term sustainable. So it's some part of time I started thinking, wow, you know what we're actually doing lending. What does that mean? What does it mean for consumers? What does it mean for their financial life? What's the implications of this? And at that point of time, I thought, myself, we could do two things I can do here, right? I can either sell this business and say, oh, shit, we're making a little bit too much on interest and late fees. Let's go and do something else. Or I can try to change this. And while my co-fund is left at that point of time, right? But I said, no, I'm going to stay and I'm going to make the change. And I realized that the buy now pay later credit offering is a healthier one than your credit card. Like you on your credit card, you put all your spending full month on that and then the bank tries to push you to revolve. You build up a balance of a few thousand pounds or dollars and then you pay very high interest. So I was like, but I remember when I worked with Burger King, it used to be like, press one for debit, press two for credit when I would swipe my card. And so like, where did that go? Well, I'll be honest, I didn't like it because the problem was if you were pashing debit now and then your bill at the end of the month was much smaller and you were less likely to revolve and borrow money and they would make less money. So they removed the debit button. And I was like, no, no, no, no, let's bring that back. Let's make sure Clon offer is press one for debit, 20% of our transactions are debit. And then the rest is credit, but the credit is interest free fixed installments, no revolving, revolving we've removed. It costs us. We gave up a hundred million dollars of revenue when we removed revolving because we used to do it in Nordics. We took it away. We even didn't have late fees in the UK for a period of time at all, but it turned out that that wasn't great either because then people to some degree were overextended themselves. So it's good to have a little bit of fees, some kind of consequence of not paying on time. We got that back where you have to be mindful of not making too much money on it. So you just have to find the balance. But over the years, we iterated on a model that we feel like is a better alternative to credit cards. If 10 years from now, less people have credit cards and more people have debit cards and then used by now pay later occasionally, I would argue it's a better society. And that's what we've been pushing and the consumers now we see they are, they love that. They reward us for that. They agree with that. And that doesn't mean you're still in credit. So you're still going to have, unfortunately, occasionally people who overextend themselves. You have to be mindful about that. You have to help them when they're distressed and so forth. It's a difficult business in that sense. It's a bank. So you have to be mindful about these things. But generally speaking, the type of product we're offering is a better product than the traditional products of the banks. You mentioned starting
with Spotify and Clana and Stockholm together. And obviously Stockholm's been the birthplace of great AI companies in the last year with LaGoura and Lovable to name a few. I'm a young 18 year old Stockholm entrepreneur. So you've got this incredible experience and you've been to the US and oh how wonderful. Do I have to be in the US if I want to build a big startup today? - No. - Do you disagree? - No, but every US experience founder tells them yes you do. - Yeah. - I mean to some degree from a European perspective it's obviously partially sad to see that a lot of the successful AI and companies in the US were actually the founders or European. - Oh, I'm sorry. - All right, it's a bit sad. But that's just how it is. I remember true color our friends of mine. Also fantastic company, European. - I was at a Tomahawk when they did that. - Yeah, Nami and Zai and they were told by the VCs, the American VCs like you have to move your engineering center to Silicon Valley because otherwise everything's gonna go to shit and they did and it was a disaster. And they had it for a year, they tried to recruit but obviously nobody in Silicon Valley knew what true color was and they were already a pretty grown company so they couldn't like attract as a startup in that sense and they had a hard time recruiting and whatever and they're just like why are we doing this and they shut it down. They lost a year on that. They lost a year on that, lots so much traction and then some of these VCs were like, oh, you're not doing well. So now we're not gonna put our partner on your board anymore. We put some junior guy on your board because we don't care because you're not our top priority in the company setting. - It's the most savage indictment isn't it when you get the associate drawing the board and you're like, oh fuck. - Yeah, exactly. - I can relegate it. So first they're advising them to do this thing and then when they actually go and execute it and it turns out to be a disaster and they're like, I'm sorry, your company's not that good. Like, I mean, it's just terrible, right? It was terrible. And I think that like, so do you think the state of VCs is very good today? - I think again, it's changing so fast. I think that the challenge right now is a lot of them are piling money into AI that they don't necessarily fully understand. Like how good is it, how differentiating is it? Does it have a real moat? - Well, what should I know then as one of these VCs piling money into AI? - Well, I think what you should be doing is coding with cursor and building things yourself. If you do that, I think you do that. If I remember correctly, I get that. - Yeah, exactly. - Loveable. - Well, you only live in love with ball or only have you tried cursor as well? - I've tried cool code. - Okay, good. So the point is that I just think that like, if I meet investors today that haven't actually downloaded and tried to build something themselves, I think they don't have the skills that to make an evaluation of the company they're looking at. It's so critical to actually just understand how powerful these tools are today before you make those decisions. If you have that insight, if you understand that and then you make your decisions fine, like there's gonna be opportunities. - I think cursor will lose half of it so rather than you in 2026. - Is that your prediction? - Yeah, why is that? - Because cool code is just eaten knowledge. I don't see any engineering team that's still on cursor. And that's it. - We love it actually. We use it all the time. - Really? - Yeah. - It's that because you have an enterprise deployment and you're not trying to-- - No, I don't think so. I don't know why. So I kind of switch between clock, I'm a big and tropic fan. I love, I love cloud, the chat version of it as well. I use that all the time. I just find that it depends on kind of the task. So I'm almost using them as like, I would go into cursor, I would write some things, then I go to cloud code, then I'll ask cloud code to do some other things. I still feel they have like almost distinct personalities and skills. And so I kind of enjoy still. And I need an idea. The problem is also like because I wasn't an engineer, I never use like VS code or any of these tools. I still need an idea today. So like cursor is my standard idea, right just like as a consequence of that. So you could be right, but I'm actually more optimistic about their future than that. You can invest in anthropic at 360 or OpenAI at 500. I'm giving the test out to make it easy. Don't make me ask this question please. (laughing) I think they're going in very different directions. I think that if you, if at least my experience with OpenAI is that it's becoming a consumer company. And if I'm building AI for like a billion people, I'm building AI that I would focus on making sure that like for example, there's going to be people that are going to seek AI as a friend, as a friend in their day to day life, as somebody more like from that movie wasn't moving in there. - That's called a handsome one? - Her, yeah. - Her, exactly right. So some people are going to more look for the her experience. And I think if, you know, that's chat, that chat you be deep to me. Because if I am, I'm so big, I'm such a big consumer brand. I'm going to start looking at my KPIs and I'm going to optimize for emotional connection, for people wanting to like, you know, how much time are they spending with my product? - Is that really going to be a chat GPT? Is that going to be a Kenymanian product? - Maybe I've been provided, which is so specialized. - I don't know, I'm not. - It could be, but my point is that like, if I'm just looking at who their audience is today, it's very likely that they will optimize for that relationship aspect of like being your counselor, your provider, your play friend that you're playing with or playing games with or whatever, right? Claude to me is very different. Claude is like my intelligent advisor. And I'm trying to push and I say to an anthropical time that like, I don't want an AI that tell me, you're so great man. Like, I understand that that's like a nice experience and some people may enjoy that. Like, I actually enjoy somebody just telling me how awesome I am every day. Personally, I'm not that interested in that part. What I'm interested in is rather somebody's telling me, Sebastian, that's freaking stupid. Like, don't do that, that makes zero sense. Like, I want an AI to tell me you're wrong man. Like, don't do that. That makes no sense. And I feel currently, it's more likely that Claude provides me like, less biased. It's trying less to please me. And I think if you're building a product open AI, the risk is you're becoming into the pleasing. Because I think a lot of people like that. And I would, I mean, I understand if I would use AI for entertainment, then also I want to be like, I want to be entertained, I want to feel pleased, I want to feel happy, I want to feel, you know, it's a different product. So you know, I mean, it's just a different thing you're looking for. And I have less interest in that. I have more interest in somebody telling me, you're totally off. Don't do that. - So rather than anthropic. - Yes, for that perspective, yes. - Yeah. 150 or 149 billion dollars. - I didn't look at the valuation. I didn't listen to $1 billion. - Well, as you were revenue expectations by 2030. - Oh really? - Yeah. - Which was phenomenal. - Yeah. - You invest now a lot as well through flat. - No. - What have you changed your mind on since also being an investor? - No, I have changed my mind on software, right? So I think that software is getting much more risky and it's much more unclear what the future of SaaS is. So we, for example, make it made a bit, flat made a big investment in the Fencer, which is like a military arms, you know, type of thing, not arms, but military defense. And that's very much like not, you know, there's some drones in there and stuff like that, but it's very different. It's not SaaS, right? - I think data centers are the one that's most under invested categories today. When you look at inference needing to run for 24 hours a day for most of the knowledge work of population, and it running for like 1% of knowledge work of population today, I'm like, why the fuck is more money not going into data centers? Do you agree with that? And do you think that? - I have a very, it's funny. You asked me about this. - I actually play around sometimes when I have time, I play around as soon as I know. Have you played around as soon as? - Did I love seeing it? - I actually sent Nick at Ravallude, a song to get him to come on the show most recently and it helped get him on. - It was awesome. - Yeah, it was awesome. - It helped get him on, yeah. - I love as soon as, so what I've done with soon is like I was playing around and I've been doing some songs. I even published them in Spotify for the fun of it. So you can go to Clon, I said, I have like 74 monthly listeners. (laughing) And my kids get so annoyed when I publish songs in my name. It's really funny. But two of those songs are called Compression. And this came from a conversation I have with Claude. So I blame all the lyrics on Claude, don't blame them on me. I was only the producer of Claude Road to lyrics and I had to give Claude some artistic freedom. I'm very interested in this, like, I got this question. I was on a conference in Yellowstone and I was on the stage crazy enough with Sam Altman and Eric Schmidt. And from the audience comes to this question, how is it possible that you can take the whole of Chattabee D5 as an example of one of these models? Once they've been trained, once the training is over and the whole thing is like done and fitted on a USB stick. How is that possible? That is not bigger in size. It's just like a few hundred gigabytes or whatever the size of the models are. And then they gave like different answers and I had an answer in my head, but I felt embarrassed in that, in that setting to say, and I think what people underestimate with AI, it's a compression technology. So what I mean is if you historically put data in a database, you say a database record, okay. Clona has a customer called Sephora. And then we write again, Clona has a customer Sephora. You created this tremendous amount of duplication. If you look at any large enterprise company, they will have the same information over and over and over again. But if you look at Wikipedia, how many articles is there about Clona? One, why aren't there 15? What do they do so magically? How can it be that Clona historically had a customer relationship with Sephora? And we had information about that customer relationship in Slack, in Salesforce, in Google Docs, in Google Slack, kind of the same information over and over again. But if Wikipedia is just one article, how do they do that? And I realize when you train the model, if I tell that like Harry is not only running a fantastic podcast, but also runs a VC, that like if you tell it once, when you train it, it will forget it, it will ignore that information. But if you tell it enough number of times, it will remember it. And then when you go and ask it, it will know that information. But it's not storing it twice. Because if it's getting the same information that it already knows, it doesn't move the tokens. So it's automatically compressing all the information. This is why you can take the whole freaking internet, all human knowledge and compress it down to a few hundred gigabytes. That's a huge amount of information. Now obviously you lose precision. This is why it's very worthless to go and ask, what is the opening hour of the Starbucks down on the corner? Like the AI would be like, I have no clue. The equivalent of Chatty.pt5, I asked this AI, so AI is a response we've found wrong. But the Chatty.pt5 as an example, the equivalent of the number of gigabytes that that model is, is the equivalent of about two, three days of weather data from the whole globe. That's it. So how can it then be so capable of answering all these questions? Because unfortunately, despite what we humans would like to say, dm herself
of true novel information and knowledge in human society is quite limited. What we see is repetitions and variations on the same themes over and over and over again. So the point being to answer your question, when we realize this, we also realized we're compressing knowledge at an experience. That's why people are playing around doing this. Like, oh, look at my eye, McMini, I was running my own knowledge. It actually works. Like, I can run this on a raspberry. You know, like, the thing is like Romeo and Juliet, that story exists in a hundred different variations. And the unfortunately thing is when you compress it down with math, it knows AICs that not as Romeo and Juliet and then another love story, another love story, it sees a love story and then knows it has slightly different names in different variations. So it's a massive compression. And now comes the question, do we need all of that compute in the future? And I am, you know, I happen to have this amazing conversation with Michael J. Burry about this the other week. Wow. Because I was talking about this because he's doing those bets that it's not, right? And I said, look, I think there's two arguments for and against. One is if you look at enterprise, enterprise, what does enterprise want? Enterprise wants highest quality at lowest cost. Why would I recompute my information about Sephora over and over again? If somebody could help me to compress that down to just one single source of truth and not having all that information are necessary, I'll take it. I'll save a lot of money. I don't need that all I compute. Why do I want to do that? So in enterprise, you're going to see this dramatic squeeze and compression. The counter argument to this is you and I then go out and say, Hey, we've had this amazing podcast. Now let's watch a movie together. We want to watch Star Wars, but with our faces, you'll be the author later and I'll be Luke, right? Now that needs generation. That needs a, you know, a data center to generate that for us. So the question is just like, what power will be greater? The compression of enterprise data or the generation of new stuff for entertainment and other things. And I don't know the answer to that question. I think you can argue both ways, but in enterprise data, there's going to be a massive compression that's going to come naturally through this technology. And that's why I'm a little bit like I'm and I don't want to be the guy who said there's only going to be few four computers in the world. Like I don't want to be that guy. So I want to be a little bit mindful. Stay forever. Yeah, but I'm just saying that like, so I don't know which power is going to be greater, right? Like, which one is to if you run with that enterprise compression. Yeah. What does that mean for data centers and for chip companies like Nvidia? Well, that would mean that you would need significantly less. That's the consequence. The problem is, why do we have so much big software? Why do we have so much data? It's all a mess because we had humans who were trying to do their best, but the right hand don't didn't know what left hand we're doing and they were overriding that and the code over there and there. And then people start doing transformations and it all becomes a big mess. And actually, Wikipedia is the most successful knowledge graph in the world. I would argue. But if you look at the standards that they apply, how do they do that? Like one very, I'll give you a very simple, like I love this principle. So if you go to Wikipedia and you try to create a new article about a new topic, it's very hard. Like if you go to Google Docs, you just click new. Boom. You start writing a new document. If you go to cursor, you start new new code base. Wikipedia, where is the new button? There is not. You know how to find a new button? No. You have to search for an article. And if you search for something that doesn't exist, then you're allowed to create new. See what I mean? And that's so different and companies doesn't work like that. In companies like, hey, I have an idea. I think Clonash would be doing this and like, okay, let's just start coding. Like, but let's go and check. Maybe we already have code doing this. Maybe we already do that. So the point is that like the reason that compression hasn't happened historically is just because so many people have been involved with different experience, knowledge and so forth. And it just creates this massive mess. And nobody has been as like disciplined as Vicky. Pedients has been to like keep it to one source of truth and so forth. There really been amazing. You can read up a lot about how they've been doing. But AI is going to help with that. AI is going to help organize this. Hey, should we really be doing this thing because we already have code for this and so forth. It's not there yet, but that's going to happen not because AI gets smarter because it's economically sound in a business. It's not economically sound to duplicate. It's economically sound to reuse what you already have. That's the reason it's going to happen. It's not because like it makes sense economically to not do what you've already done again. But there are any other takeaways from your conversation with Michael Barry. He's a phenomenal thinker. Yeah. Yeah. No, we enjoy. I think in this regard, I think we were lying. But it was funny because we were talking about this. How much novelty is there really? And it's an interesting concept because as I said to him also, there is other data that suggests otherwise. I've heard data that suggests that 30% of the searches on Google every day are new. I don't know if that's true. It sounds crazy to me. But there are some data to suggest. So maybe there is more novelty. And I think that's like that. I don't know the answer to these questions. But I think this is very, very fascinating to me to see the counter effects of these questions. Before we go into a quick fight, it's being not knowing the answers to the questions. I'm sure you're in CEO groups, go to CEO events, sit in green rooms. And there are topics or themes that CEOs discuss about AI that they do not discuss publicly. What do you think they most are? First of all, I don't go to that. Because I'm hard coding and working with my teams and trying to make sure that Claw is as successful as possible through this transformation. I spend very little time on those kind of things. Does this generation make every CEO, even public company CEOs a builder again? I think it has to be. Yeah, doesn't it? Well, again, I was with my last time from a last time. He's I'm up at 5 AM coding. I'm like, was that the same before? He's like, no. Well, I think so. But it's also amazing, right? I mean, I think for somebody like myself who didn't use the code or couldn't code, I think it's fantastic to be able to take my ideas and thoughts and turn them into something I can show others. It doesn't mean to have to be production ready, but I can articulate things at a very different level of quality than just like trying to explain something on a whiteboard or, you know, whatever. Now I can actually bring things to people. I had this very, very unique experience with Claw just last week, where I was we were trying to talk about to kind of communicate a very specific thing that was like touching on accounting and finances and predictions and stuff like it was pretty like very, very complex thing. And we were just talking about it. This was like the first time I went to I went to Claw and I said, hey, can we like interact a few times? I wanted to like see if we can like explain this concept. And after a few iterations, I got this like beautiful animation wasn't even a slide because it was an HTML file. I thought to myself, wow, you know what? This is actually the first time I felt that AI could do something that humans couldn't. And it was the first time I had that experience. And the reason was because if I would have liked to do the same animation and beautiful pedagogical explanation of a very complex technical accounting finance thing, historically, I would have brought in an animator, a designer, an accountant, a finance Google sheet guy, etc. And each one of them may have been extremely skilled at what they do, but didn't necessarily know what the other person needed in order to perfect that outcome. And so the animator would have been like, yeah, I can animate like this and that, but they don't really understand what they're animating, right? The financial concept, the financial guy, maybe like I can do the numbers like this and that, but I don't really understand why we would need this like animation because I read the numbers and I get everything. I don't need this freaking visualization, right? So the point is, but here Claude, Claude had all the skills in one and then created this and I was like, I could not, I couldn't even would not have done that. Like it and it was just like such a experience to me. I was like, okay, I just special moment when AI seats human capabilities. And I think in this, in this experience to me, it did like it did something that I, I don't think a thing, you know, it's not like a single person could have done each part of different parts, but what was, like how many people are going to find the world that are great animators, great visualization people, super pedagogical knows everything about financial accounting, understand financial services like, you know, how do you find it? Rev and diagram. Yeah, it's going to be hard to find the person that's good at all of these things in one, right? Final one for a quick five. What happens to Elon with Grog? I would never dare to bet against Elon, whichever. No, but the trouble is I would never dare to bet against is when you have two people you would never dare to bet against in the same market. And most people would never dare to bet against Sam. Mm-hmm. And so if you'd never dare to bet against Sam, but you'd also never dare to bet against Elon, one of your prior assumptions has to be wrong. Yeah, I think he's going to do really well. I mean, I think it's, if you think about the fact that he could in a few weeks, in a few weeks put together a frontier model at that quality level, you got to give the credit to a guy. Like, I mean, that's just like, it's, it's insane. Do you use it? I actually, you know what I love about it is, and this is funny because this is exactly what Elon has been saying all the time and nobody wants to give him credit for this. But the point is, on X, people spread all these rumors. Like we were saying, like yesterday it was a rumor that like, Clona like company offers buy now pay later for rent. Yeah, you're doing rent. Yeah, we do rent. We're doing rent. No, we're not doing rent and nobody cares. Right? But one thing that makes you late, yeah, it's too late. And people are just like, it was Clona like now that disappointed you don't do rent. And the next tweet is Clona, those rent and then we're trying to like our coms teams jumping on and trying to like, but like if it was established media, they would fix it. But like these exposed and tick tock posts, like nobody, it just goes one answer. Right. But then people write at GROC is this true and GROC actually almost always answers correctly. And I think that to me is very, very impressive. I think speaks to Elon's vision of X, but over time it can become the trusted source of information. And what is done with GROC EPIDA, where it's taken inspiration from Wikipedia, what I said and so forth. So I think that there's something there. And that's going to be critical for our societies because right now we have this scam ink, the scams flowing over like AI is creating virtual versions of everything. So I think that's to me whether, you know, whether something really, really exciting. I agree. Do you know, I just wish you could hide the at GROC because I'm too embarrassed to ask what is a knife
- Yeah, exactly. (laughing) - You can have a purse game. - Like a purse, I feel like. - You just explain it. - Yeah, I'm just like quietly. - I don't want anyone to see it. - Yeah. - Dude, I wouldn't do a quick fire with you. - Yeah. - So what have you changed your mind almost in the last 12 months? - I've changed my mind most about the pace at which their transformation is happening. I was probably in the camp of, I thought it was gonna happen faster than it did. But I think I've always, my problem is that like, I overestimate it takes time for people to change habits and ways of working and stuff like that. So I actually think it's gonna take a little bit longer. The adoption. - It's not necessarily the capabilities of the technology, but like how fast people adopt it and how it will change. - Do you think that differs for enterprise versus consumer? - I'm actually the opposite. I'm like surprised by how quickly consumers adopt it when you look at the wow numbers for chat. - Yeah, but consumers always gonna be faster, right? - Way faster. - Yeah, way faster. - And we underestimate how fast consumers adopt and overestimate how fast enterprise adopt. - Yeah. - And I think in kind of work life, it's definitely going to be slower. - What criticism about you stings because it's partly true? - Yeah. (laughs) - No, I think the criticism that things is the one that isn't true, which is? - Well, I think people sometimes say that like, oh, he's just trying to make an exit. He just trying to make a fast buck or that like, I just wanna, and after 20 years, I feel like, hello, you know, haven't I proven now? I mean, it's for the long term. I think the other one is that like, he just, he doesn't care about the consumer. He just wants to make money on interest rates, et cetera, et cetera. You know, reckless lending and all that stuff. None of that is true. I deeply care about our customers. I deeply care about them being financially well off. And I think I'm providing a product that is better than the alternatives. So like, that's the one I, the stings, because it's just, it's not true. - I've never, I don't understand how you ever level that criticism against your like, but battling public company, CEO ship every day. I mean, it's like the opposite of like, quit buck. Anyway, what would you do first if you were not a public company and had no scrutiny on you? Like if I said here's the visibility cloak, you can do anything, spend any money on it internally. What would you do? - No, I think the only thing I would do different is spend less time on communicating and talking to investors, right? That's it. (laughing) I mean, to be honest. But when I look at the strategy and what I'm trying to do with the company, I honestly feel like, as I said, that 2015 vision, let's be that digital financial services assistant. That's the one I'm executing on. We're executing on it, the company's executing on it. I feel we're having tremendous momentum on it. We see the, you know, the affection of our customers picking up our banking products is amazing. - Do you think you've told a good story around that? - No, I think communication is hard. I think, because I respectfully, I didn't, I didn't know this. - Yeah, I feel terrible. - Well you and I talked about it even before this podcast started, that I think my problem is, right? Is that like, and this is definitely what Michael gives me as feedback. Like I need to stick more on message. I need, I failed probably at this podcast again. And I tried to talk about all the kind of things. I'm just like, I love my work. I love what we're doing. I think so many things are so interesting and complex. And then I sometimes want to tell people everything, I want to explain everything to them. I should be better at like sticking to a clear message. - No, it's totally bad advice. - Do you think so? - People buy you, not what you sell. - Yeah. - Okay, we don't really study percent of shows. Because CEOs come on and they just sell. Let me tell you why all banking products about it, it sucks. People buy you, not what you sell. - I hope so. I hope that over the years that will pay off. But I also see like what's funny is like, when we were the most highest valued fintech in Europe, blah, blah, blah, then like I could do no wrong. Whatever I said was like, that's brilliant. I'm like, he's so smart. - And then when we like, you know, when we came down to 6.5 and we had to do layoffs, it was like everything he does is a disaster. - Was that a brutal time fee? - Of course. Of course it was. - How do you deal with that? - To me, it's also like one, I had this crazy thing. Which is, I've been doing this for many years now. So I'm a little bit more like, you know, thick skin. But what happened is, along this interview with MSNBC, and I've been with an interview with them many times. And generally speaking, like, you know, questions have been, I would say, balance and fair. But suddenly on this interview, they bring this new guy on board. And this was exactly when this was happening. And I'm sitting in my home 'cause I was doing this interview for my house. And the guy comes in and he's like, this is a disaster. - The company is going to shits. I basically didn't say that word. But like basically, oh, you know, this is the end of Klanah is all going down. And it's like, and he's just like putting this massive pressure on me and I'm just sitting there. And I'm almost starting to crack up and laugh because it was just like so insane. And it's like, come on, the business has been really well. Like obviously we need to do some changes, but like, it's gonna be fine. And I'm trying to kind of deal with it as professionally as I can. I was like, no, I don't think like, I said, I don't know, as you try to do with those situations. But the point is, I go out of that. I was like, oh my god, that was intense. So I get in my car, I drive to the office and I was like, there's only one song that I can listen to now. And obviously I put on queen under pressure. I put it on Max Volu, and I'm just sitting there. Under pressure. (laughing) And I crack up and the thing is, I said to myself, look, one of the biggest idols of mine, obviously Slatadi Bromovitch, born in Sweden the same day I am 3rd of October '81. And I think of him and I say, I wanted to play Champions League. How the hell does it feel to go into the finals and play Champions League? He actually never won the finals unfortunately for him. But the point is, like, every soccer player dreams about being in the Champions League finals, right? Or a football player. The pressure. Can you imagine the pressure when you're going into that stadium, everyone screaming the height of your career? This is the chance you got at winning this thing. That's what I signed up for. I signed up for being on that interview with MS-Mincey. This is what I signed up for. It is stressful. It was hard as hell. I wanted to play in this level of league. So I also have to cherish and be happy about the fact. Look at it and be with gratitude that I get the fantastic opportunity in life to experience these things. It's amazing. I'm going through this amazing experience. And that's the only way to look at it. So as much as it half and I can cry and I cried and I can be sad and, you know, I've had really tough times where I feel like super depressed about stuff. But at the same time, I'm always always looking at it, putting on the pressure and being like, but this is what I signed up for. I love that too. - Yeah. - Did you ever interview? - Did you know what you're doing here? - No, we should do. And as a brilliant video where he's like, when I step on the picture, I think I am God. - Yeah. - I don't think I'm God though. But yeah. - Did you always think you would succeed? - No, but it's exactly same. There's funny. There's this email that I found that I wrote only six months into a company. And it's two of my co-founders. And it basically goes like this. This is like six months into a company. We just started, we're getting our first customers. And basically the email goes like this. I'm sitting here, it's late evening. It's written like 11.30 PM, you know? - Oh, yeah. - Yeah. - And I'm sitting here myself and I started thinking like, you know what, what if like we're actually successful with this thing? What if we start like growing, maybe from Sweden to Finland and no way and then we go to Germany? What if we actually grow this globally? What if we actually go and then we go after the pangs and we start building financial services? And so I basically in that email, I write everything that's happened the last 20 years. So the point is that obviously, did I know that was gonna happen? No. But just like Sloth, when he was kicking a ball down in Malmö on the street, did he dream about being at the finals? Of course he did. And of course I did as well. I dreamt about being where I am now and even more so where I want to take the company in the next decades, right? - You're jammed about being here with me? - Of course. - Sweets at the end of the year. - I did too. - This was a very vivid dream. (laughing) - But like I think vision's a bullshit. All VCs are say, hey, what's your vision? - Right. - For a pre-seed company. Dude, if I told you that when you were starting your business, you know, 20 years ago, you would not have been like, we're gonna be a fully fledged banking provider. We're gonna have the NPL, the Cinsertion point. We're gonna own the US as well. You would not have been like that. You unlock the next chapter with every achievement in my mind. And so I think vision's the most actually constraining thing that we force founders to try and articulate. Am I wrong? - Well, I think you're wrong with me. I mean, and again, I'm not telling you that I know how we were gonna do it. I had no clue, but I was dead dedicated to doing it. And I did see, or when I was, I don't know why. When I was a kid, I was an immigrant kid. My parents quarreled a lot. They divorced when I was eight. My dad started drinking quite a Celtic upbringing. And in that, my childish interpretation of what was happening in the family was that they were always fighting about money. If I fix money, then everything will end happily ever after. That was my childish interpretation. And so I got, for whatever reason, I was also very interested in Richard Branson. And I read his book. And I now met him, which was a fantastic experience for me. But like, I read him and I was just like, "Wow, you know, this guy built Virgin, "he did the records, this and that." And then the other guy that really inspired me was Ingver Cumpra, the founder of IKEA, who built this, he was at four period of time, who's seen as the most wealthiest man in the world. And so like, I just, for whatever reason, I was always like so enthusiastic about building businesses. I remember we had this like, school night in middle grade, where like the cafeteria was always the place that did the most money. And then there was like tons of other businesses, but they all failed. Nobody was really making a lot of money. But the point was to raise money to go to like, on a class trip or whatever. And I started at Pizzeria. You know, I started selling pizzas and we out-competed the cafeteria. And we took all the money and my class could go on my school trip because we made all the money that the cafeteria was making. I've always wanted to like drive a business. I've always, I've always had this. And then eventually I said to myself, "The coolest business to build must be a bank." Like that must be the ultimate business 'cause banks like, banks always wins, banks always prevail like banks, you know. You see these things.
you see like the JP Morgan's of the world and you know all this and they like they go through this yeah of course like sometimes they get financial crisis and whatever but like in the longer term the bankers always wins you know so that was always an inspiration to me. Can I ask a hard question I've invested in 13 unicorns. Yep well done me VCs congratulating themselves and the single most common feature is a broken relationship with their father. Did that drive you in a way that you wouldn't have had otherwise if you don't mind me asking? No I think for sure I think it's a combination of that and being an immigrant kid. I think that the seeing all these other Swedish kids going to their summer holiday houses and having you know a surplus that to me looked great and then us eating pancakes seven days in a row because it was the cheapest food that mom could put together because we were out of money even though I love pancakes and I thought we were really delicious. I think it created this like I felt my my parents were smart my dad deserved something better is the wrong world but like he started driving a cab you know and he was very smart very intellectual that was not the right job for him you know he was saddened when he saw drunk people and he was driving them and seeing what people were saying and I think he was just not his place to be in life and just it broke him down and I felt that like if I was going to fix things live I was going to get money and I was going to fix this now the problem was once I got money it turns out that life isn't like that because I I gave a lot of money to my father and he used it to drink more and he drank himself to death so like it turned out that money was not going to solve those problems there are some problems that money won't solve right and again I'm not talking I don't want to have that discussion but like you know there's money make you happy and all blah blah blah because obviously when you've been as fortunate as I have in life and I can take my kids on an amazing vacation I can do things and I don't have to think every day about you know can I afford this and can I do this that's in a tremendous luxury and privilege in life to be in that position but at the same time I've also experienced that like it doesn't solve all problems like and it's sad because that was partially my aspiration with doing this right final one I like to finish on a like theme of positivity yeah what are you most excited for in the next 10 years like my mother's got amass I'm very excited for developments with diseases and treatments for diseases like amass what are you most excited for I think with AI obviously the thing is that if you five 10 years ago could say it like well I kind of think I know what's going to happen in the future like it's going to kind of continue like this or whatever and then suddenly came COVID and the war in Russia you know it doesn't think it's like the world just changed and suddenly came AI and you suddenly sit there and like I have no idea how the world is going to be in two years like I know like but for myself what I'm most excited about is like hey I'm still an optimist at heart I do believe that these technologies will make life better for humans I think it will actually lead to something positive I'm in that camp you know you can have an intellectual debate with me if you want to but like I think that's true and then what I'm most excited about for me is I want to realize the vision of Clana like against what you said about not having visions like I want to put that vision into reality I want to bring finally a banking product that truly helps people save time save money being controlled finances that excites me it excites the hell out of me and I think that like all these incumbents have been having all these excess profits they've made so much money because people don't switch because and honestly because they didn't care enough about their customers they didn't wake up like that restaurant the retailer every day and said what can I do to make my customer better off they didn't do that I'm honestly excited but that that that journey is exciting to me and I know that if I make more money I'm not going to be happier because I have a bigger pile of money it's not a point but the journey of trying to accomplish to make Clana into that global retail bank and the adventure it encompasses that excites me going through all these different challenges and opportunities and trying to make the best that I can of delivering on that that that that thing really excites me and now AI is enabling me to do things that I couldn't do with this company before I can realize those visions faster and at a higher quality than was ever possible before and that's super exciting dude I've so enjoyed this it's you say it's so much nice to be in person yeah thank you so much for being so brilliant and being so open but it's been such a joy thank you 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treasury payments and spend the most exciting part for me they're heavily investing in agente finance if you're scaling globally you need a banking and finance platform that's borderless real-time and intelligent check out air wallets today and see how they're helping thousands of businesses like Canva, McLean and Deal scale at air wallets.com/20VC terms and conditions apply your money's are safeguarded not fscs protected see air wallets.com for more details while air wallets makes global payments feel seamless van to make the security and compliance behind them seamless too security and compliance done wrong is a giant headache security and compliance done right though well that's van to van to help you earn trust and speed up gross no spreadsheets required for startups low on time and resources van to becomes your first security hire using AI and automation to get you compliant fast and unblock really big deals and if your big end prizes van to is your AI powered hub for compliance 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