20VC: Monday.com CEO on Is SaaS Dead: Will Everything Be Vibe Coded | Will Systems of Record Become Valueless Databases in an Agentic World | Will LLMs Own the Value in the Application Layer with Eran Zinman

Some days I feel like I was ran over by a truck, hit by a plane, and barbecued, and it's just 11 a.m. What the market is saying to me is the company is worth zero. Okay, fine. Now I need to build, you know, screw it. I'm gonna go all in. I'm gonna go all in. It's the biggest unit moment for us in the history of the company. Nobody will wanna buy software than not doing the majority of the work for them. We're changing everything basically. The 10 of software, how much companies are gonna spend on software? It's gonna be 100x for what it is today. The SaaS Poccolips is real, and no one has felt it more than Monday.com. With close to 1.3 billion in revenue, they're valued today at just $3.9 billion in the public markets, one of the hardest hit. Today we sit down with Aaron Zinman to answer one question. In a world of agents, will Monday become a value-less database? Or does it have a future in an agent economy? But before we dive into the show today, as an investor, I'm always on the lookout for tools that really transform how I work, tools that don't just save time, but fundamentally change how I uncover insights. That's exactly what AlfaSense does. With the acquisition of Tegas, AlfaSense is now the ultimate research platform built for professionals who need insights they can trust, fast. I've used Tegas before for company deep dives right here on the podcast. It's been an incredible resource for expert insights. But now with AlfaSense leading the way, it combines those insights with premium content, top broker research, and cutting edge generative AI. The result, a platform that works like a supercharged junior analyst, delivering trusted insights and analysis on demand. AlfaSense has completely reimagined fundamental research, helping you uncover opportunities. From perspectives you didn't even know how they existed. It's faster, it's smarter, and it's built to give you the edge in every decision you make. 20 VC listeners don't miss your chance to try AlfaSense for free. Visit AlfaSense.com/2Zero to unlock your trial. That's AlfaSense.com/2Zero. While AlfaSense helps you find the signals that move markets, air will help you move money globally just as fast. Founders, let's get real about the growth tax. You've raised VC funding and you're scaling globally, and it's no longer about shipping product. It's about orchestrating operations across continents. But suddenly your payments and finance stack is choking your growth. You're logging into lots of different banking portals, waiting days for transfers and reporting across entities. It's operational drag and it's at your scale. It's costing millions. That's why I'm so excited to partner with Air Wallix. Air wallets are more than just a banking alternative to HSBC or city. Air wallets brings you an intelligent financial operating system that powers how global businesses operate and grow, allowing you to manage and automate banking, treasury, payments and spend. The most exciting part for me, they're heavily investing in agente finance. If you're scaling globally, you need a banking and finance platform that's borderless, real time and intelligent. Check out Air Wallets today and see how they're helping thousands of businesses like Canva, MacLean and Deal, scale at air wallets.com/20VC. Terms and conditions apply. Your money's a safeguarded not FSCS protected. See air wallets.com for more details. While air wallets makes global payments feel seamless, that to make the security and compliance behind them seamless too. Security and compliance done wrong is a giant headache. Security and compliance done right though? Well that's Vanta. Vanta helps you earn trust and speed up gross. No spreadsheets required. For startups low on time and resources, Vanta becomes your first security hire. Using AI and automation to get you compliant, fast and unblock really big deals. And if your big end prizes, Vanta is your AI powered hub for compliance and risk, bringing together data from across your business and automating workflows. So you can prove trust at any moment. Vanta scales with you at every stage. That's why top companies from startups like Cursor to enterprises like Snowflake choose Vanta. Do security and compliance right? My listeners can get $1,000 off Vanta by going to Vanta.com/20VC. That's Vanta.com/20VC for $1,000 off Vanta. You have now arrived at your destination. Aran, it is so good to have you on the show, dude. I have been wanting to do this one for a while. So thank you so much for joining me. Thanks for having me here. It's great to be here again. And by the way, if anyone is listening, you should be watching, 'cause Aran looks younger than he did last time. (laughing) It's extraordinary. The volume that your hair has today, dude. But I wanted to start. (laughing) You're like, this is not how I expected the show to go. Clearly we are lacking incredible discipline in our research. I wanted to start on communication, actually, because we see stock price respectfully in the dumps, but actual fundamentals may be a different. So what is the stock market not seeing that you think they should be seeing? Yeah, so first of all, I want to acknowledge it's kind of a crazy period. I think for all of us, especially us, Farnair is going through this massive change in the market. So it's definitely not easy. It feels like a royal cluster, almost every day, you know? Some days are extremely difficult, but it's definitely quite a journey. I think fundamentally we need to distinguish between what happens in businesses, which is one thing, and the sentiment change that happened, I would say in the last year and a half, but more precisely in the last six months, which from my perspective, it feels very aggressive, very powerful. You know, on one hand, like if you look at the earning calls and how business operate, everything is kind of normal. Some companies are even exceeded expectations and businesses are working great. But at the same time, the sentiment has shifted drastically, like I've never seen before, at least from my perspective. And the negativity that now it's being attached to software companies, and it seems like every day there's a new, do-ons-day scenario, a new tweet, so that the sentiment definitely change. By the way, there's a lot of truth to that, and a lot of things I do understand from the investor perspective, so I'm not dismissing it. But definitely we need to distinguish between the operation of businesses and the sentiment change that happened in the market. I think the realization that the public markets and a lot of people are having is, wow, if we see a gender evolution in the way that we think it will happen and proliferate, then there are core systems, potentially like a Monday, like a Salesforce, which bluntly, I never used again, and just turning to databases if anything, which agents crawl on top of. Why does Monday not become a layer that gets extracted away? - Yeah, so first of all, I think there's like five Doom Day scenarios I'm familiar with, so that's one of them. I'll just take you back a little bit in time, but first of all, it was everything about people will vibe code their own apps, that was one of them. Another option for Doom Day scenario was that some players like, you know, Entropic or OpenAI or Gemini will capture all the value from enterprise software. I think that's another scenario people are talking about. And the third one is maybe what you refer to is that platform become an essentially system of records and then other companies capture the entire value that those companies offer. So I don't mind going through each one of them if you won. I can address each one of them. - I love the way I suggested one of them, and you're like, well, actually here's three more. (laughing) - Well, I can cover up with that additional three ones if you won. - No, dude, I would love to. Let's start on the one that's actually, you know, you mentioned at the beginning, vibe coding. It was a journalist, actually, I can't remember what American channel. It was CNN, CNBC or one of the acronyms that American has where she vibe coded her own Monday in a couple of hours or whatever. Why will people not vibe code their own Monday? - So first of all, for my personal perspective, I was after a long day of work. I was about to go to sleep. Suddenly I got a lot of messages on my phone saying that we were broadcasted live on CNBC. And, you know, from all the software in the world, that journalist picked Monday to show that you can vibe code the software. Obviously she could pick any software on the planet, but initially I said, you know, it's a compliment. Monday's a beautiful software, so I felt it was a compliment she's done it to Monday. You know, she could have done it for Salesforce or ServiceNow, or she could even create like a search engine or a social network at the same time. So, again, like it's a matter of perspective, I guess. Going back to the vibe coding theory in general, look, first of all, I have to say vibe coding is amazing. I've been coding all my life since I was a kid and seeing this amazing technology become real is unbelievable. But I think there's a big difference between vibe coding, a user interface and building an actual software that works across organization with all the depth and functionality that built into that. There's a big difference. I've been coding all my life and I know, you know, relatively easy it is to create an interface and how hard it is to build the software. So I think there's a big difference and I think some people might get confused by that. I can leave you understand that on the end to present. But on the consumer and SMB end, for that journalist, for an investor in a fund, does it not just cannibalize your consumer and SMB business? Yeah, look, I've said each one of those theories, I think it has some truth to that. But I think it's marginal. I think it's a very small impact if any. Going back to the topic itself, I think people underestimate how hard it is to maintain software over time. I think it's very easy to create the first increment of a software, but to change it, adopt it over time. It takes a lot of effort and a lot of dedication to do that. And at the end of the day, from my perspective, businesses have a core business operation that need to focus on. If you think about a software today, it's a very small expense for most companies. Having a dedicated person or a team of I've coding some apps is a huge cost. So I think in the end of the day, I've coding is amazing technology, but I don't think it's going to disrupt software companies. I'll give you another point of data, which I think is relevant. You can see amazing VCs like yourself and other people in the industry and amazing founders building companies. If you could vibe code, you know, any company and any startup, no company will have value not in history and not today. And still people invest billions into new companies, new startups, intopreneurs building new startups. You know, I've read amazing news about ramp raising at 30 billion, Harvey, Legora, companies you talked about. You know, you can argue you can vibe code them as well, but still the smartest people. But you couldn't actually. And so when you actually look at like a Legora Harvey, they are trained on a huge amount of legal data, which they have gained in the last two years from doing what they do. And so you couldn't vibe code with the same quality output that you could if you would have vibe code, Monday as a consumer. Actually, I don't think so, because at the end of the day, those companies is true that over time they accumulate data and information, but I can argue you can probably get the vast majority of the value even without that specific training. So I think at the end of the day, you could argue you can vibe code any company. What I'm trying to say basically is that as much as I think the technology is awesome, we have our own vibe code capability within the product. From all the theories of how software is going to be disrupted, this is my least favorite one. I don't think it's going to happen. And I think most investors that I speak with and people within the industry don't think that's what's actually behind what's impacting stocks and software companies today. Again, it can marginally have some impact, but I don't think that's the majority of what we've seen in the market. - A completely agree with your enterprise. The idea that enterprise as well is a wonderful. Sadly, enterprises don't work like that, otherwise I would be much richer if their buying decisions were so much quicker. The second one you mentioned was that we're going to see open AI and the model companies move into the application layer. We've seen anthropic do co-work, we've seen anthropic do legal, fuck Dario. He just killed my crowd strike over the weekend, bang Dario cheers. Why are they not going to move into the application layer so much more aggressively? - Yeah, so again, I think there's obviously some truth to that and they might capture some of the value, but people over there estimate how much they're going to capture. I want to take you back in history, old enough to remember what Amazon built AWS. And everybody back then said that Amazon is going to capture all enterprise software value, because before that, the hardest part about building a company was actually getting the servers up and running, the website working, storage, having like 24/7 availability. That was the hard part, that was the heavy lifting. I remember how people got excited when you got a website online. And when AWS came out and was so easy now to build a website, everybody said Amazon is going to capture all the enterprise value because it's just so close to the value they offer. What really happened is the exact opposite. We saw a boom of companies building on top of Amazon and software was growing exponentially. Because at the end of the day, I'm not saying I'm tropic or op in AI, I'm not capable of building an enterprise software. I'm saying the opportunity they have has been the infrastructure of the LLMs of the future. It's so massive. And going after enterprise offering is a whole different business to build. Because at the end of the day, when you sell the companies, it's a different sales process, it's a different mechanism. Nobody's going to buy software for the entire organization based on purely PLG play. The way they're going to adopt, they want to be handheld, especially if you want to use a software across organization. So I'm not saying people will not use on tropic and op in AI for sure they will, but I don't think they're going to capture all the enterprise value because they have a much bigger opportunity ahead of them and it's not their focus. And no company on Earth, where they are without, can do everything. I don't believe in one player being the one software to run everything in the organization or at all. So I don't see this place out. I think that's probably the weakest one. I totally agree with you. When you look at Open AI, oh, sorry, Anthropic Movie and Dissecurity, it's a very weak argument to suggest that replaces crowds' Michael Palo Alto networks. I completely align with you on that, actually. The third one is a tough one, I think, which is like how you embrace an agentec future and does it make you a database and not an interaction platform as well? How do you take that one? So it's a tough one because it's true. That's why it's tough. I believe with that with all my heart. Basically, the way I look at it is that if you think about it very broadly, software, as we know, it haven't changed for 25 years, even before the web. I was building software for DOS, without interface, same thing. You would build a database, you will create dashboards and analytics on top of it. You might have some automations and workflows, but essentially the value, same from day one. And it's true that interfaces changed. People initially built for desktop application and Windows. It moved to the cloud. So there was a major benefit because it became real time. Everybody was seeing the same thing at the same time. Mobile came into our life, but if you judge by value, basically the same for 25 years. And if you think about it, it doesn't matter if you build a CRM software, IT software, work management software, 90% of the work was done outside of the tool. So if you're a salesperson, you would make the call outside of the CRM, you build the deck outside the CRM, you will prefer the call outside the CRM. Eventually, yes, it will check the data into a CRM and your VP of sales. We're able to see what's going on. It goes for IT, it goes for Monday, but you would track your workflows and projects, and you will do everything within Monday, but the work itself was done outside of the tool. So if you think about it, software was extremely beneficial. I cannot imagine the world before software because we take so many things for granted, like everything is centralized, real time, one place, everything is track. So we might take it for granted, but it was a major step. Going back to your question, AI change everything. Because now with AI, I think we flipped the equation. I think AI can potentially do 70, 80% of the work, and not 10, 20% like you used to be before AI was brought into our lives. And I think that changes everything and what companies need to do for their customers, what customers expect from software, they will only grow over time. Nobody will want to buy software than not doing the majority of the work for them, because otherwise you're just buying legacy software. If it's true, and then it does become a database, where is there value in that? Well, I think this is, in my opinion, where investors in the public market get it wrong. If you judge by what software is doing today, you're right. If we don't change, eventually, we'll become a database. And nobody will buy Monday to track their work, because you will buy software for our defenders that fulfill that promise. But that's not the way it's going to plea played out. We're changing everything, basically. Going back to what I've said that I think some of the investors or the public market, I totally understand the way it's reacted, because I think what the public market is saying essentially, we understand that the value is changing and software will be different going forward, but we don't know who will be able to change. And I get it, because it's hard. Change is extremely hard, especially for an existing company. And the public market is saying we don't know which company will be able to change. There's so many parameters to that. And we're out until we get that confidence. But if I take a step back, I think that software going forward, the 10 of software, how much companies are going to spend on software, is going to be 100x for what it is today. Software going forward will be much more valuable going forward. Software time is going to grow exponentially. And if you combine this with the fact that companies are going to change and going to capture this value, I think the opportunity in the software market today is like we've never seen before in our lives. We see enterprise spend on technology at 8 to 12%. It's a varying range on a number of different verticals and variables. What do you think that will be in 2030? Look, I could give an example from Monday. You know, I've checked it myself. So I think a company like Monday, let's say we have like 1 billion in expenses. A company like Monday will probably span 60%, 70% of the budget on headcount and then 78% on software. But if we can flip the equation and scale businesses, not on headcount going forward, you know, every CEO will be gladly increasing the expense on software because it's going to be marginal compared to the headcount growth that you plan for your business going forward. And I think this will play out more and more into the future as I become more dominant. Companies will spend much more on software and much less on headcount going forward because they'll just become more efficient and they'll gladly spend that. - Can I ask you there, your analyst day presentation showed 20% year-on-year headcount growth in 26. - Yeah. - Is that not completely powered off school to what you just said about more spend on technology, a gender usage and organization efficiency when we're increasing headcount by 20%. - Yeah, no, I agree. And I think we need to differentiate between the transition and where we're going. So for us, actually we brought it down a little bit. In the last article, we said it's going to be meet teens. And I think there's also potential, we might even take it lower. I don't know, we'll see. But I don't want to press the brakes violently. I think we need to do this responsibly because there's a transition period. But if you look at the rising, you know. - Can I push you? Why are you doing it? - I mean, it in a nice way to do the stocks in the dumps. I just had said from the corner, we said we'd be honest, you're Israeli. I'm British, no. (laughing) It's fine. I just had said one from Klanah. I mean, he's in the dumps too, Portia. I love Sab. But we were at 7,000. We're now at 3,000. By 2030, we're going to be at 2,000. I mean, I think in a couple of years there's only going to be Sabah Klanah. Why are we not being more aggressive? Fuck it, now's the time. - Look, first of all, you know, it's discussions we have in the leadership team and maybe we'll make other decisions. But I don't think that's the point. I don't think that, you know, if we reduce it counter-imatically, it will change, you know, investor perception about Monday. I just don't think that's the essence of what we've seen in the market. Going back to what I've said, I think investors don't know which company is going to change. And, you know, we just had the earning call two weeks ago, you know, a lot of fun, you know, obviously and being sarcastic. You know, going back to investors and I've talked with, you know, all of our major investors, everybody's saying the same thing. Eventually, what they want to see is businesses revenue accelerate. And I totally get it because I think what people are saying is this, there's huge demand for AI products and people want to buy AI. And we're gonna have a few years now that companies are gonna look for AI solutions. Given that we're going to see infinite demand for AI products, there shouldn't be a demand problem. So you need to show us or prove to us that you can supply that demand to your customers and new customers. And because of that, we want to see acceleration revenue going forward. And they're right. I think that's the best way to prove it because if there's infinite demand and you're able to capture that, no reason for your business snacks to accelerate. And I think that's our role. This is exactly what we need to do and prove to ourselves and to our investors going forward that we are able to accelerate the business and we are able to capture that AI demand that exists now in the market. And this is, you know, Roy and I are responsibility going forward. I get you, but like everyone is cutting hat count to still increase it by mid teens is still a lot. Is it just like you need the people? I still don't understand. - Yeah, so the way I look at this is this. I'm not arguing that companies need to become more efficient. So I'm not dismissing it and we will become more efficient. I'll give you some example of all things we're already doing. First of all, we had a team of about 100 SDRs and we now doing it with agents. 100% is being done with agents. We move those SDRs to do Album. All of our support is being done with AI. All of our developers is using Cloud Code and Cursor. I don't think there's any companies that's pushing AI efficiency more than we do. We want to be the forefront of that and we're pushing that with all cylinders and we are becoming more efficient. - I just want to drill down on that because that's super interesting for me and Natalie. When we look at the sales team utilization of AI, when you say we've replaced SDRs, but then you said they're moving to Album, how are you using AI specifically in the sales team to make the sales team more efficient? - So basically a customer today that goes into Monday when they leave their details on the website, let's say they leave a contact sales form. The way we used to do it before AI was that we had a team that will call back those customers to qualify them to check the opportunity and basically qualify them and help them schedule a meeting with the account executive on our team. So this is all done by AI today. So I'll give you some stats. So used to take on average 24 hours to get back to a customer, now it takes three minutes. We used to miss a lot of the calls, people would not answer the calls. Now everything went up. Conversion rate went up, people answered in the call went up, opportunity to book went up. So all parameters went up. AI speaks all languages, available 24/7. So quite an amazing transition. - You said support also impacted. I'm really intrigued. Do you use an external provider for customer support or have you built your own? I interviewed Ariel Kohn from Navan, Jack from our wallets and they built their own. How did you think about that? - So when it comes to the SDR part, we've done it our own, we built our own solution and support, we use some third party but a lot we do our own as well. I think you still need to highly customize tools today in order to properly enjoy them. Things are moving so fast that we just felt building our own is probably the right path to take at this point. Have you seen a shift in the end team building with Karsa to claw code? - I've seen some of it. I think right now it's a sense of flavor but essentially we're in a transition period and definitely we see increase in output for engineers. I think part of it is that you find new bottlenecks that are not attached to writing code. I think there's a, on one hand, we see increase in personal productivity but again, this new bottleneck you find each time you increase one of those proactivities and we're on a journey to increase more and more that output of our R&D team. - Sabakona said 3000 today and they would be 2000 by 2030. How many do you have today and how many people do you think you'll have in 2030? - So today we have about 3000 people and gonna be when? - 2030. - 2030. - Wow. My guy's phone is probably we're not gonna grow substantially but look, I think efficiency is important but I think what's even more important is the opportunity that we have. I think this is where people are missing the point from my perspective because it's true that we can focus 100% on efficiency. We reduce headcount, reduce expenses but going back to my point, this is the biggest opportunity in software ever in our lifetime, the biggest opportunity that we ever had as a company and as an industry. Okay, this is, it's like the beginning of the most amazing journey for all of us. So what I wanna do is to capture as much as I can out of this opportunity because it's out there and we can do it. And I think this is where people are getting it wrong. Like, you know, on one hand, I see people excited about private companies because they build tools in the AI era that gonna capture the, what I've referred to as doing the work but I'll tell you a secret, public companies will do it as well. We're gonna do it. We are already doing that. - The challenge I have is like bolt-on AI strategies which I'm not delineating between public or private. I'm delineating between scale companies and non-scale companies or AI native companies. And I think the bolt-on AI strategy, sorry I'm being blunt, it could be a you, it could be an air table, it could be a you name that ilq era of company. Versus a AI native built from the ground up with AI is just very different in how you build, integrate and adopt or approach AI as a kind of fundamental platform, 100% and we were the victims of this as well. I'll share a little bit of our journey. So going back a year and a half ago or even two years, you know, when Sam Altman wrote that famous tweet, this is Chatchy PT, you can play with it. I remember that week, you know, I'll give you the kind of relationship that we had with AI. So initially, you know, I was excited. I'm excited about everything in technology. I'm also a person who like to try things in my own hands and we played with it and it was amazing, but we didn't get it to be honest. Like I think most of us didn't get it, maybe some of us got it and you know, initially also the investors didn't know what it means and we heard from investors, you know, it's cool, there's hype around it, but we don't know. But something changed about, I would say a year ago, I don't know what it was to be honest. Like it's not like one tweet that I've seen or one product, I feel it was, you know, combining many data points, but I think it was a collective understanding that things are changing and things are changing forever. And this is where you started to see the change in the market sentiment and like I felt like a light bulb moment at that point. And before that, we've done a lot of things. Like it's not that we didn't do things, but we built some AI features. But like you said, I call it a sprinkle some AI dust on top of our product. So essentially we didn't know what to build. So we built a way for people to build a formula as using an AI. We built AI blocks, AI columns, but essentially, it was a sugar coating our product because the value haven't changed. How do we solve the problem of seats, Aaron? Like, you know, we've lived, you know, I'm showing my age, obviously, but we've lived in a seat-based SaaS economy where we sell seats. And that's fantastic when headcount scale, as they always have done and people renew. But in a world where headcount is reducing, where efficiency is increasing, and we're moving away from seats. What do we do when our core pricing dynamic goes away? So look, going back to the transition, like I said, initially it was the AI dust that was sprinkled on the product, but then we realized, you know, what I've said is that the value we need to give to our customers, not just us, every software is completely different. So what we've done internally is to rethink what we are doing as a company, what's the value we try to provide to our customers with Monday work management platform and also with CRM and service, and rethink our whole product. Part of it is pricing, like you said, that's gonna change dramatically. Our go-to-market is gonna change, our homepage is gonna change, the ads are gonna change, the most important part. What our product is given to the value it gives to our customers is now going through the biggest transformation since we launched the company back in 2013. - Can I push you on the pricing? It's gonna change. What does it change to? - Well, eventually I think it's gonna be more consumption and then entirely consumption going forward. So I think this also be a transition, but now it's gonna be hybrid and eventually it's gonna be 100% consumption. - How do you feel navigating that transition? - So maybe I'll just explain the transition that we're doing just to make it more concrete. So basically, companies wanna adopt AI. And they're gonna adopt vertical tools to do that, like the SDR example I gave you, maybe another example for support, for legal, there's a lot of vertical solutions people gonna adopt, but I think this is big room for horizontal plays. And this is exactly what we're gonna do with Monday. So basically we wanna be a place that orchestrates between agents and humans because at the end of the day, maybe in the far future, agents will do 100% of the work. I don't think it's gonna happen, but maybe it will happen to some extent. But we're gonna have a huge transition period where humans and agents need to work together. And we wanna make Monday the default place for people to build agents and to collaborate between agents and people. So essentially, you build agents at the top of Monday, those agents will output tables, docs, files, people will go over it to build their own agents. And essentially we wanna become the default place to do horizontal agents across the company. - Do you think you're best placed to do that, though? Everyone wants to do that. I'm sorry we wanna do that, chat GBT wanna do that, go and bat to that one, actually. They do wanna do that. And that's right in their wheelhouse. But why are we best placed to do it? So first of all, I don't think that chat GBT or Gemini on Tropic are gonna do it because going back to my second theory that we've discussed. Of course, people are buying a Tropic, clawed at the buying chat GBT, but it's not a tool where you work with another thousand people and share information. It's a personal tool that people use. There's a big difference between selling a tool that can be used personally and building a tool for people to collaborate with agents. It's a very different product. It's a different style. If you look at OpenClaw and what Peter's done and what he's doing joining the team at OpenAI, and then you look at their movement into enterprise and anthropics focus on enterprise, again, critics would push back and say, that's just not true. Yeah, I'll explain again. I think a company today that's wanna adopt AI, they have no idea what they need to do, no idea. It's a new technology. I think we live in an echo chamber of tech, but the world out there is very different. And I think essentially companies will wanna buy AI, they will do whatever they need in order to buy AI capability because it's gonna be a competitive market. And if they won't do it, they won't survive. But. You know what I think that's where chatch ebt's brand wins. Fundamentally, the brand of chatch ebt is so strong that they are signing enterprise contracts with a velocity we haven't seen before because of that brand, anthropic R2. But again, I go back and as a Monday holder, do we not need to jack a shit out of our enterprise brand? Because otherwise, they are gonna eat the momentum on the enterprise side. So I think we need to differentiate what enterprise contract means. Okay, so the fact that chatch ebt or Gemini or Entropic are selling a contract that a thousand people, let's say within Monday, can use Entropic, it's great. But that's not the product I'm talking about. It's like a comparing Microsoft Office with Monday. It's not the same thing. There's tools that people use individually, which is great. Personal productivity tools, building agents, but then there's the actual work. It's like claiming that there's no need for SDR software because you bought Entropic. It's a different problem to solve. So I think the problem solving how people and agents are working together in one workspace is a very different product, it's a very different problem. I think companies will want guidance and on to do that. They're gonna need help setting up agents, figuring out what they can automate with agents and what they can replace in terms of headcount. And this is not by buying off-the-shelf product that is a generic product. You will need a product that can help you collaborate between humans and agents. If it's a very different product compared to just buying a license to LLM. And I think eventually, if you look at Entropic, open an eye in Gemini, they have a much bigger opportunity than they want to chase. They want to be the backbone of the LLM industry. They want to capture as much as they can in terms of that market share. And I get it, it's a huge opportunity. Again, going back to my AWS comparison, they are the infrastructure, but there's gonna be a lot of products built on top of that. I think if anything, we're gonna see an excess of software being built on top of the LLM. Not less, exponentially more, because the opportunity is so massive and the time is so huge. And going back to Monday, we're going knowing for that. We're changing the product, the value proposition, how people use the product, how people onboard, and what people should expect from the product. If you haven't built an agent on Monday, you're not using the product properly. And that's a major shift. The boards, the dashboards are gonna be more in the background and the agent's more in the forefront. And it's a huge change, it's a scary change, but I believe in that with all my heart, because I think the opportunity is massive, we're at 0.001% done of where the word is going. Do you think we overestimate the speed of adoption for enterprise AI usage? Or do you think actually we're at a tipping point and it will tap much faster than we think? - I think technology is moving fast. I think organization is gonna take more time. You know, what is AI adoption? There's so much nuance to that. There's so many things. Look, at the end of the day, I think what people are confusing is, you know, AI can get super smart. And we've seen Corona exponentially, but no matter how smart you are, if you don't have context, you cannot perform your job. You know, even the most intelligent person on Earth cannot do their job. If they're not aware of the context. And if you think about any company, even Monday itself, 90% of the context is not documented anywhere. Nobody knows it. You know, it's something that kind of floats in the air. You know, what's the idea? What's the strategy? Who's doing what? What's next month? What's next year? How are we gonna do it? Why are we doing what we're doing? What the soft process behind it? So I think we're gonna see a transition period before all that information and knowledge and intelligence is gonna be documented, which might happen in the future. I think we have a huge transition period of people working with agents. I think you can see some small companies and I'll be following Jason Lamkin and what he's doing on your own team. You know I'm a big fan of Jason. - Yeah, you know the joke I say with Jason, is the best venture fund of the last decade was Jason Lamkin's unresponded inbox. Because every great founder sent him an email being like, "Please invest." And he just didn't get that. (laughing) - I always joke with Jason that we have like a one-sided relationship where I listen to every word he says and he's my mentor but he's not aware of it. So it's like, I do a show with him every week and he is my mentor and he is aware. - So sure. - He's so good. - So he's going right, he's so into it, it's insane. - I know, but look at the end of the day, you know a small team like Jason Steam and Jason is very forward leaning but can replace everything they do with AI. But for an existing company and business, it's gonna be more of a transition over many years. And we need to remember that most economy, you know, 95% of economy is not software companies. It's actual businesses. So going back to my point, we're gonna see a transition period of companies adopting AI, AI working with humans, humans collaborate with agents. It's a massive opportunity. And I don't think open AI and a topic or Gemini are gonna go for that because it's such a different sales process, enterprise sales, top down, different tool use. And we're gonna go all in for that opportunity because our advantage is that we are the best platform for people to working together across organization. So we're gonna take that part of the business and add the agents on top of it and change the value and what people do with the product. And I believe it's gonna be massive going for it. If we shift a little from enterprise down to kind of, anyway, cam still be, but more SMB and consumer. One thing the Monday is done unbelievably well and we spoke about last time was the customer acquisition machine you've built on SEO, content, YouTube. It's been phenomenally successful. How do you think about critics who say that customer acquisition engine is completely changing in the world of GEO or LLM discovery in a changing content world? How does customer acquisition channels funnels change? - I think going back to my original opening where I said that there's the sentiment change but businesses are unaffected. So we were affected by one thing, which is Google introducing AI mode in the search results. So Google used to be a significant acquisition channel for us and definitely it took a hit in terms of people clicking on sponsored links because people see the AI answers. So definitely. - When you said, "How much hit?" I'm sorry, I'm really naive here. Like a 10%, a 30% or 50% broad choice. - It was about 10% of our acquisition in terms of new ARR. But again, Google is very transactional. So people usually when they're searching for something they're willing to buy at this point because the intent is very high. So we lost some of the more transactional deals more SMB oriented and we shifted that budget to other channels but they're kind of longer sales cycles. So we definitely took a hit because of that. But if part from that, we have 70 other channels that we acquire customers from. And we didn't see any impact on other channels. So it was a significant impact, but for my perspective, it's isolated to that. - Can I ask a harm one? If we are the platform between agents and humans and we have this graph vision and this is mostly exciting time ever, why have you not bought any of your own shares back? - Well, we are. We announced a buyback program of $870 million. And we said we're gonna spend it over the next two, three years. We've already done some buyback in Q4. If we're gonna see opportunities, we're gonna buy back our shares. And definitely there's opportunities right now. So we are looking into that and we do have a buyback program. - What about you personally, dude? We saw the service now, CEO, it's spent three million bucks and that was revealed to be less than his car collection. Which was a rather annoying title for an obstacle. I have to admit, I saw it and I felt sorry for him. I was also really intrigued to see the cars, which they didn't show. Why not buy a back personally? - Yeah, so first of all, I'm on a 10B5 program. So basically I have to six months in advance, make a six months plan ahead. So I'm not saying I won't, when the plan is open up, I might buy more shares personally. Again, it's something, I need to decide with my wife. You know, it's not a personal decision for me, but definitely it's opportunity. But I can share another thing is that not myself or my partner Roy or the rest of the leadership team is selling shares. In my 10B5, I have a number, I'm not willing to go below in terms of selling shares. And I can say the price now is much, much slower than that number. So I'm not selling any shares personally. Since the IPO, I still hold probably 80, something percent of my share. So I sold less than 20% 14 years in this journey. So I don't think I need to prove more that have, like all my skin is in the game. You know, I'm 100% in. I believe in the future of the company. As I said, it's one of the biggest opportunities that we ever had as a company. You can ask you from a personal perspective or leadership perspective, when you have a challenging period like this, what do you know now about how to galvanize a team when a stock price is so impacted? And of course, people look at it every day and look at their net worths. Look, it's been a role cluster. It's been hard, emotionally, everything. I've asked you months. I can share that it's still fresh, but the last earnings called the stock went down to $70. Obviously, when the stock is going down, and I've seen all the earnings calls before Monday and after Monday, I felt like no matter what companies are gonna announce, the stock is gonna go down 20%. So I was not optimistic. I was not sure what's pricing and what's not, but it is what it is. I get it. The sentiment is so negative. How do you feel going in when you know that you're gonna get pummeled? Are you like fuck it? You know what there's nothing I can do? Are you like, oh God, I'm dreading this? Oh no. Look, I didn't know what to expect. And overall, I'm trying not to make the stock price to manage my decision making process, but I look at it. It's, you cannot ignore it. Like it has a psychological impact for sure. And definitely it's not easy or fun when you go up and talk with analysts and investors and nobody's happy. Again, I don't think we're unique because service now is down 50%. Sales force is down 60%. It's not helpful. So I understand this things I can control. There's things I cannot control. I cannot control the negative sentiment in the market. What I can control is what can we do about it? So I'm trying to focus on the things I can control. Going back to the earning call on Monday, the stock went down, obviously, lost some sleep over it. I woke up 3 a.m. thinking about it. Tuesday, woke up 2 a.m. Then fall back asleep. But when I woke up Wednesday and the stock was 70, and had left a feeling of relief, to be honest, because I said, OK, 70 represent, let's say, 3.7 market cap. We had, I don't remember the exact number, but roughly, let's say 1.5 billion in the bank cash. No debt. So the enterprise value is 2 billion. We have, like, again, I don't want to do slow specific number. Let's say over 1.3 billion of AR. So it's 1.5 multiple. So I felt like, OK, what the market is saying to me is, again, air quotes, the company is worth 0. OK, fine. Now I need to build. I need to prove. And suddenly I felt in a relief, because I'll do everything needed in order to do to make the company successful. Like, it can get any worse. Yeah, the stock can go down, but I feel this is the lowest sentiment that software companies ever had. So yeah, it can get lower, but, you know, to be honest, like, it's pretty low right now. I love it. It's a little while. I eat it again in the fan challenge case. You know, because I obviously, I'm a Monday holder. He's a thing about Monday. I thought that was a flaw. I was wrong. Yeah, I'm not saying it cannot go down. Obviously, everybody, every day, there's a new tweet and all the stock is going down 7%. I cannot control it. But what I feel now, you know, it's crude. I'm going to go all in. I'm going to go all in, both for myself, and a management team. This is the biggest opportunity. There's only upside to where we at. We're going to take the risks. We're going to go all in and do whatever is necessary to win. I'm extremely motivated for that. Do you think private competitors have an advantage on you that you don't have because you're public? If you look at Stripe and Adian, I think Stripe have an inherent advantage in being private that Adian don't have because they're public. And what they can do, how aggressive they can be, how they approach product, you name it. Do you think that's the case here? I think the opposite. The opposite. If you kind of relate to what I've said, I feel like I was kicked in the ads so many times right now that, okay, I get it. And I feel when you're private, you know, you can try and ignore what's going on and even say, you know, everything is okay. But for me, I get it. And I don't blame the investors. I think investors are super sophisticated. It's an amazing market. One of the investors are saying, I got the message. I got the message and they're right. They don't know who's going to be successful. But I think this is where they get it wrong because basically, I think what I'm trying to say, Harry, throughout our conversation is, are you playing defense or are you playing offense? And I think every day I go on Twitter and I read what people are saying and everybody is publishing an article, you know, this company has more robust system records. This company has a mode. This company is enterprise. Who cares? Who cares? What are you arguing? Who's going to change last? Who have more time? I'm saying the opposite. Everybody have to change. The faster you change, the better. And I think some companies will not be able to change because I don't know, the founders are not there because it's hard because the DNA is not there because it's 100,000 people company because they're not sure where they're going because they don't have a cultural execution. My confidence come from the culture we built, the fact we always were great execution, the fact that once we make a decision, we're going to go all in. We have everything needed. We have the cash. We have the talent. We have the execution. We know what we need to build. That gives me a lot of confidence. The people in the company and our mission. So, you know, if you play defense, good for you, I feel for us, it's an opportunity to play offense and do whatever we need in order to win. And this gives me a lot of confidence because I'm building the future. Can I ask you, you said there you have a billion and a half and it's 3.7 or whatever it was, there comes a time when actually it's just too low, it's mispriced. And at that point, again, I have many public market friends now. They are going, I want to take it private. This makes no sense anymore. It is strategically wrong. Would you like to take it private? No, I don't see a reason. No, look, I think at the end of the day, you can be private, you can be public. The question is, do you need to raise more money? And we don't. We generate 27% of free cash flow. We don't need to raise more money. We have everything we need going forward. If anything, we'll become more efficient. I see the retention rate, highest-ever, gross retention, highest-ever. We're still crying a lot of customers. So, I'm very confident about the business. And I think this is where people don't understand that the businesses are working good. And things might change, but nothing is more sticking to an assessed product. So, I'm definitely not worried about operationally. And we are changing, as we speak. So, we don't need to raise more money. And no need reason to go private. And we can stay public. You said about a billion and a half in cash. What a wonderful luxury that is also that not many have. What would you like to buy that you haven't bought? From an M&A perspective, why are we not being more aggressive? Yeah, so, look, we are looking into companies. And we also met a few that we were close to acquiring. But look, at the end of the day, this is not how we're going to win. If I need to bet the whole company future on an acquisition of a startup, I'm not doing my job as a CEO. The problem now with private companies is that we have the opposite valuation between private and private. If money is valued at 3.7, every startup in the private market with 5 million of AR is now being valued at 2 billion. So, yeah, I can buy it with partially cash, but I'll need to use my stock as well. So, I don't have a lot of opportunity by a few billions worth of private company. It's not going to play out. And again, I feel we have everything we need in order to execute. So, I think it's a cycle for public companies. It's also going to be a cycle for private companies. Now, there's a lot of money in the private companies in private investors. But it's a cycle. At some point, investors are going to see the same company 20 times a month, and LPs is not going to pour a lot of money. And I get it. I've been in cycles before. Are you in CEO groups? What's that group? Not what's a group, but I have a few CEO's and console with. What do they say? Are you guys all just going, "What the fuck, together?" (laughs) Not really. The problem with other CEOs is people don't expose their emotions too much. I'll say that. But I think people feel resilient. I think we give each other confidence. I think some CEOs are, I won't say ignore in the problem, but don't understand the magnitude of what needs to change. And I think some are more advanced in how they think about it, and understand the magnitude of what needs to be changed. Again, my confidence is coming from doing and changing. So that gives me a lot of confidence going forward. So I don't need anybody to kind of pet my back. And I got Troy, my partner, and the rest of the leadership team. And we feel very confident on where we're going. From like a marriage and from a personal perspective, it is fucking hard what you'll go into. I don't think a lot of people quite realize the emotional and personal toll that it takes. Getting on a show like this with me, and after everything that you go through is intense. And I remember Seb from Klaner saying, "He does shows interviews, and he did one that was so hard, and they just shit on him, shit on him, shit on him." And he got in his car and he played queen under pressure. And he just like sang full pitch under pressure. And like he always thinks to that moment, like from a personal perspective, what are the things that get you through the really hard times? So first of all, I want to acknowledge it's hard. It's hard. And I told somebody, someone the other day that some days, I feel like I was ran over by a truck, hit by a plane, and barbecued, and it's just 11 a.m. You know? (laughing) So definitely those days like that. But I must say that I feel very good now, and I feel we're doing the right things. I'll tell you, I'll say two things that really help me. So one is the people in the company. That's something that's very significant to me, because once we tell them what we're doing and focus on doing an execution, I could see in their highs, like although it's scary and we're changing a lot of things, and we're taking big bets, I can tell in their highs that they're excited. They appreciate we don't ignore the problems, that we don't say everything is okay. We are changing, we are adapting for the future, and people are working incredibly hard. They're dedicated from the bottom of their hearts, and that gives me a lot of confidence. And the second thing, and I don't wanna get too emotional, is my family, my wife and my kids, super significant. I feel like a network of support. At the end of the day, what I really care about, you ask me about my personal wealth, I don't care. I just want the company to be successful. I feel immense sense of responsibility for the future of the company, for the employees, for the investors, for everybody that's part of that ride. And I wanna do whatever it takes to capture this opportunity. And I wanna play offense, I think that's the point. At the end of the day, I think there's so much noise. Just listen to the noise, is the wrong thing to do is the leader and the CEO. Noise is Twitter, another article, even public market, I wanna focus on the essence. For me, the essence is very simple. It's the biggest opportunity of our lifetime in terms of software. We need to change and we're changing. And because of that, I'm confident we're doing the right things. This is what in my control, I will do whatever is necessary. So this is the essence, and this is what we're doing. And that gives me a lot of confidence going forward. - There's a kind of content creator, influence of whatever, I'm quite into these kind of inspirational speakers, it's got Alex Hummerzy. And he says, you know, whenever I'm going through a hard time, I think, you know, the heart of the challenge, the greater the story that comes out of it. And this is the story that you will one day tell your kids. - Yeah, I'll tell you how to look at it. I got the Franseet in probably one of the most exciting period in human history, the birth of intelligence. And I can navigate this ship and it's amazing. It's such a great opportunity. I think everything is life. Is it a glass half full or half empty? I can look at it and say, oh, you know, like I was on a path and everything was great. And we built this great company and so on. But the way I look at it today is maybe this is our biggest opportunity as a company. Maybe we waited for that moment. And if we do the right things, we can reaccelerate the company and even grow much larger than what we could have become as a company. So I hold into that and that gives me a lot of confidence. And if you ask me today how I feel, I feel great because as I told you, we hit the bottom or maybe close to the bottom. And from here we can only grow and focus on execution. And this is exactly what we do. You said about kind of this is time for offensive. Before we do a quick fire, if I would ask you like, what's your most banshit crazy offensive move that I'm sure is totally unrealistic, but you would like to do. So like for me, I look at it as a load of companies like you, duo, and a load of others where I'm like, crazily mispriced assets, let's roll up and buy in a really aggressive, I want to raise $100 billion and do this. It's a banshit crazy offensive idea. What would you say as yours? So basically our strategy is to fold. One, in terms of our horizontal platform, we're going to know in agents and humans working together, we're shifting the product 100%, the pricing, they go to market the product. We have two vertical offerings, the CRM and service. For that, we're building those product from scratch being 100% agentic. So basically going full in on that opportunity. The way I look at this today, service, dominated by service now, CRM dominated by Salesforce is open market today. I believe in their ability to change, but they need to prove it. I want to go all in. I think we made this choice to go for CRM and service back in the days where we have crazy competition. Now I feel the play field is level and there's opportunity. We have one big horizontal bet, two vertical bets with service and CRM and we're going all in on all three. I'm very confident about that. So I think it's a big bet and we'll do whatever is necessary to capture that opportunity. He's a harder competitor, HubSpot or Salesforce. Again, the question is who's going to be able to change? That's the most important factor for me because at the end of the day, it's not what they built, but how can they change? Going back to my point about public market, I think this is where companies are mispriced. Everybody is priced now on the downside. Again, it's because of lack of information, not because the market is not sophisticated enough because you don't know, you don't know who's going to be able to change. But I'm confident we'll change. There's a lot of questions how and there's a lot of risk to it, but we're going to change. And the question is who else is going to change? And who else is going to change successfully? And responsibly, you do think we'll change more effectively, HubSpot or Salesforce. Being a bigger company is harder because it's hard to move humans, that's the hardest part. I think people think enterprises are benefit. Maybe SMBs is better because SMBs are more open to adopting new technologies. When you play defense, some of those things might look as disadvantages. Some of them are SMBs or being a small companies. If you play offense, those disadvantages might become advantage because those customers might be sooner to adopt technology and will buy those products before enterprise will buy. So I don't know, to be honest, and it's for them to prove, I will never underestimate each one of those companies because they've built incredible things. I think in general, I think investors underestimate incumbents' ability to change. Their willingness to change, the motivation to change. Private companies are great, but those companies reach where they're reached because of multiple things and they're very successful companies. And I think the cycle is going to shift once, like fun and good stuff to the rain, you're going to see another public company change and accelerate another one, accelerate. And investors are going to say, "Hmm, it happens." So let's rethink who sales is going to change over time and valuations will go up. What do you people say that the babies are being thrown out with the bath water? Very strange analogy, but it's kind of what they say for the public markets. They, other than Monday, what is the biggest baby being thrown out with the bath water? I don't know. I think most of them, it's not like, again, I'm not an investor, so I don't have my own list. I think it's been a bloodbath. So it's really odd to think. It totally has been. Listen, I want to do a quick fire round, dude. So I say a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts. Well, if you changed your mind on in the last 12 months, what did you think that you maybe don't or what didn't you that you now do? What's been the biggest mindset change? Well, obviously I, like, you know, here we go. I'll be honest. I didn't understand. I don't think I was the only one, but I didn't understand the magnitude of the change, but today I understand that software is fundamentally changed forever. So that's something I didn't understand, but now I totally get it. It's obvious to me that the future is going to be very different for software. What criticism about you stings because it's partly true about myself? Yeah. I think one thing that I think we can do better is to tell a story in a better way. I think growing myself would not, even though we do great marketing for our product, I don't think we tell the story good enough for the company and definitely that's something that I feel we can improve. Because I often feel like, you know, if people knew what I knew, there will be much more confident in Monday and where we're going. And I feel it's, it's my responsibility to do a better job telling our story in our strategy. Open AI at 500 or Anthropic at 380, which one would you rather be an investor in? First of all, I think we all need a little bit of humility. What I've heard in the last years is this. Microsoft is the most amazing companies. Microsoft is finished. Google is finished. Google is the best company on Earth. Open AI is the most amazing company. Open AI is finished by entropic. And this is like three months cycles. So I feel it's like a 1998 and we say, you know, Yahoo, and Netscape going to suck all the value from the internet revolution and we know nothing. So I feel we're in the beginning of an ex-tenent. It's really hard to say who's going to win? Who's going to lose? It's a horse race. I think we're probably missing 90% of the picture of how it's going to play out. So I'm not an investor. I'm not making bets on Monday, not on the companies. Definitely I feel entropic have a little bit more momentum right now. They can change and it will change. I'm sure the trouble is when you don't know, we don't know, no one knows. Yeah. And what the trouble then is it's a flight to safety and a flight to cash. And that's the problem I think we're going to see now which is like no one fucking knows and so no one wants to play the game. I've had enough of Casino Rulad in the public market, like I'm selling and I'm just going to cash. And that is what you're seeing everyone do. A movement to cash. Yeah. Warranted it brilliantly with Berkshire six months ago. That's a problem for us though because we need that cash in Monday. Yeah, but look, it's a cycle. What happens in a cycle is that over time if you see consistency and you're getting confidence and then you see the companies accelerate you're getting confidence, nothing I will say will change perception. Time and execution will change perception and this is our responsibility as CEOs and this is what I'm planning to do. Over time it will change. It's a cycle. I've been through so many cycles so far like is this the hardest one or is this like every other one? Look, everybody enjoyed the 2021 cycle with COVID, right? But it was also a cycle. I remember when our stock went up to 400 after we IPO'd. One of our investors told me something can Fox from Stripes. It's only something which was brilliant. It told me, isn't it great that the stock is going up without the revenue going up? And I said, what are you talking about? And he said, yeah, everything you gain is through sentiment change, nothing you've done. And it really resonated with me. I said, OK, I need to distinguish between what we do as a company and our growth and the market sentiment. And if you don't praise yourself when the stock is high, you won't be impacted because the stock is down. If you don't attach your personal success and personal ability to leave the company with the sentiment, and you need to focus on the business performance, that was his point. And it really resonated. And I didn't celebrate when it went up to 400 because the new was temporary at the end of the day. It's a cycle. So everybody enjoys when the cycle is up. But also now when the cycle is down, I need to focus on the business metrics, the revenue, the retention, the things we are doing. That's the important part. Now be carried away by the cycle itself. Totally agree with you. And 100%-- very difficult to-- and that's where I like the experience CEO that you are in terms of having seen many before. I think it's actually where younger CEO Struggle wears the first cycle. And the depths are so low and the highs are so high when it's the first time you've done it. But on the one, which other CEO do you most respect and admire? When you look across the board at your counterparts, which one do you like them? Yeah, so of course-- and again, it's a personal friendship, but I really love obviously I feel like it's near-- we're close friends. So obviously, I understand a lot of questions. But we also have other CEOs that I talk with. And again, it's actually going to pick like a name because I don't know them personally. So when you pick somebody, you take their entire personality with it. So it's really hard for me to pick. But look, the amount of information that I acquire through podcast, blog posts, videos, I probably acquire like 5, 6 hour content a day. I walk to work, I walk back, I do the dishes. My kids are saying, what do you have the air pause in your ear all the time? Because I just feel we need to learn like crazy. I try to get as much information as I can. And I think I learn a lot from different people perspective. Also, I love to show you guys are doing the four of you. The three of you, sorry. So I listen to that. I think now you need to be learning as much as you can. So that's the mode I operate in. I'm adding in a penultimate one. What's your biggest marriage advice? When you go through a really tough time as well, it's very difficult for you to put a strain on that. What's the biggest marriage advice? What is my advice? Well, first of all, I've been with my wife for 23 years now. So we basically grew up together. But I'll tell you one thing. So my wife has been nothing but amazing throughout this journey. And specifically, I would say the last six, eight months. It's not like she doesn't care. She knows what I'm going through. But the amount of support I get is unbelievable. So one advice I would say-- and this is actually from my therapist. So she gave it to me because I told her what I told you now about my wife. So she told me, say it to her. When you meet her this evening, say it to her, what you said to me. I said, right, I mean, I have to because I feel it, but I haven't said it to her. So communication, sharing, how you feel, the good, the bad, talking about it, it's the best advice I can give with my wife and also with the partners of the work. So I feel the more you open, the more vulnerable you are, the more you share, the more intimacy you create, and the better relationship you create with other people. Very un-English of you. We tend to not share much. I know. Yeah, we're very uncomfortable. We normally call each other kind of Mr. and then surname is like Mr. and Mrs. Stabbings. Yeah. Final one, dude. What are you most excited for in the next 10 years? Like my mother's got our masks. I'm super freaking excited for advancements in our mask treatment because of AI and everything that we're seeing with longevity. What are you most excited for? This is probably the biggest change since the invention of computers. I'm lucky to be part of that. And I'm excited to see how this plays out. I think if you ignored the negativity that I touched it at, it's pretty exciting. I mean, it's quite a peer to be alive. It's pretty amazing. When you think about its civilization and how actually for 1800 years, it really remains relatively flat. Fiddle systems, farming-based economies. When you look at the last 200 years, I know it's a large amount of years now, but proportionally it's not a tool, actually. God, I'm so grateful we're living in this time. Yes, how freaking epic is this? Yeah. Amazing. Humans didn't shower in hot water like 80 years ago. And now, if you don't have water in your bath when you're before you go to sleep, it's like it's ruined your day. So it's like, we get used to good things. So easily, I think specifically with AI, we're going to get used to getting the best treatment, best doctors, everything's going to be instant. We got each one of us going to have the most amazing personal assistant. Our life is going to be amazing. And of course, we're going to complain. Of course, we're going to look at the things that don't work. But I think going forward probably the value and the quality of life is significantly going to go up going forward. Dude, as I said, I so appreciate you taking the time. I so appreciate you putting up with the harder questions even fantastic. So thank you so much, man. Thank you, Harry. Thanks for having me. But before we leave you today, as an investor, I'm always on the lookout for tools at really transform how I work, tools that don't just save time but fundamentally change how I uncover insights. With the acquisition of Tegus, AlfaSense is now the ultimate research platform built for professionals who need insights they can trust fast. I've used Tegus before for company deep dives right here on the podcast. Visit AlfaSense.com/20 to unlock your trial. That's AlfaSense.com/20. But suddenly your payments and finance that is choking your growth. The most exciting part for me, they're heavily investing in agenteic finance. Check out Air Wallets today and see how they're helping thousands of businesses like Canva, McLaren and Deal, scale at airwallets.com/20VC. Your money's a safeguarded, not FSCS protected. See airwallets.com for more details. Well that's Vanta. And if your big end prizes, Vanta is your AI powered hub for compliance and risk, bringing together data from across your business and automating workflows so you can prove trusted any moment. That's why top companies from startups like Kursa to enterprises like Snowflake choose Vanta. That's Vanta.com/20VC for $1,000 off Vanta.