204 Have We Reached Peak Road Bike Geometry?

Welcome back to the cycling demystify podcast your weekly podcast exploring the art craft and people behind bike fit Today we are here in the studio. There's all three of us. There's me way and double trouble to met double espresso Normal espresso in hand indeed. That's good. Yeah, I'll skip giving the day a nod you a little bit hopefully it will make for stupendous chat and banter on the podcast today So if you've been following along the last three episodes have all been about effective pedaling biomechanics or mechanics Been having lots of questions and feedback from that which is great. Thank you very much for all your questions We had another question wanting to know a bit more about progressive road geometry that we've been talking about so last episode we Talked more about the skill of bike riding Hellremko basically made ganna look like a fool in the world Time trial championships because basically he didn't have ganna's power But he had bags more handling skill and wasn't able to navigate the course much quicker So he won we talked about positioning in general and we talked about what's been very trendy this idea of progressive road geometry Which we Essentially summarized as being kind of throwing your body position forward more so the c-tube angle steeper throws your hips more forwards more on top of your feet And then consequently the the length of the bike because longer as well to preserve the reach from saddle to handlebars and this does have some consequences To handling and how you feel on the bike But the idea is to offset that with some of the gains that you get from this kind of progressive position But I think that's not the whole picture There is more to progressive geometry than just the idea of pitching everything forward Because you have to look at the body as a whole as you might have Caught on to we like to take a holistic view on Biomechanics pedaling cycling and so we thought we'd just dive a little bit deeper into some of the nuances and details behind progressive road geometry Actually going to be talking more about cranks And spot and bracket drop maybe cleat positioning but also You know who who is this kind of best suited for and I think the answer might be a little bit surprising Is it not like this geometry this kind of way of positioning yourself on the bike Might actually be a little bit more open than what the marketing would suggest So yeah, you know pick that apart and if we get really into it then we can talk about how you can design an entire bike around bottom bracket drop And crank length Not in that order not in that order Anyway, let's get into progressive road geometry We're not going to talk so much about time-drolling and to mount bike geometry which kind of came first but we'll talk about this in the context of road cycling So just to recap yeah progressive road geometry. Here's this Kind of new design of geometry which is basically turning road bikes more into tarantrol bikes. Would you guys agree? Yeah, I think like we can in turn in the Lermans terms we can define it as steeper c-tube angles and longer frame reaches Yeah, right and on the that that's like the veneer the very first layer of the onion But I think you'll become more like what we'll talk about becomes more relevant when we talk about Why why is progressive geometry even come about like was the what's been the goal of bike manufacturers to pitch everything forward And what other elements make it make it work. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so how can we get away over there? Yeah Well, if you guys fitted that many progressive geometry bikes Well defined progressive geometry. What is it is it like we just said in terms of like steeper c-tube angles Or are we looking at other elements as well that I would say offer more of a progressive fit Rather than it being this is a progressive geometry. This is a traditional geometry. Okay, so would you guys agree that the the goal of a progressive fit is to Optimize for aerodynamics Well, I guess it depends on the individual right but like the if we're talking about the angles and you know steeper c-tube angles And longer frame reaches then yeah, the ones that I've done Which I can count on one land because I haven't been that many The goal of that those particular riders is usually to optimize for Speed yeah, which is the balance of aerodynamics and power yeah, right? And normally handling comes as a secondary element to that whereas the focus is going as fast as possible for as little effort as possible So I'm thinking about one fit we did in particular which is around the time where Ridley Redid their latest Noah then Noah fast And we did a couple of fits for a couple of riders specifically for that bike and that was kind of quite an interesting kind of like experiment But interesting kind of process to go through is to kind of write okay This is the goal of the rider. This is the geometry of the bike they're interested in How do those two to meet in the middle? Yeah, that's quite an interesting kind of problems as of yeah I think some of it is Yeah comes in the the education to the rider of actually what they're buying into right because I don't think everyone understands the consequences of What they're wanting or what they're being sold through the marketing that we're fed through by companies and so on and so I guess this is this is the goal of the podcast in many ways just educating people about you know This is the goal to get faster Which you can achieve through kind of better aerodynamics maybe a bit more power production But also as we talked about last week you know handling becomes a really important element in creating speed or maintaining speed But what's the trade-offs what what are the kind of main trade-offs when Essentially what we're doing is putting people into time trial positions on the on road bikes Which means throwing your kind of body body weight forward Opening up the hips so that theoretically you can get a lower torso angle But there are some kind of ramifications around kind of How your body operates? Yeah, we have this kind of like tryout done you have kind of speed Yep sustainability So like you know, you know what speed you can produce and within that comes like power and aerodynamics and all this You have the sustainability of it, which is how long can your body hold that posture for yeah, and then you have the handling element Of it which is kind of like yeah, does your bike can you can you stay upright basically? You know relative to how far you how fast you go in and how sustainable that position is and you've got a choice as to where you want to pull that Triangle around to prioritize Certain things yeah, and if you pull in one direction then was the good is gonna be consequences everywhere else So like you say it's just educating people as to like the consequences of the potential choices that they're making So they can make a more informed decision And it's like well, do you actually want what you think you want? Yeah, yeah, so what would be some of the the main things The people struggle with when they're trying to maintain their gravity way that's what people struggle with Always that damn thing called my new favorite thing gravity. Well, it's not most my not a new thing is it obviously But it's my new favorite thing to talk about The consequences of your Minipulation your relationship to gravity all right, do tell where do you start where you start feet and it feet always I thought you're gonna say heads Well, your feet have to be the start point your head is the kind of the the unstable the bowling ball in ballers You know on the top of your perched on the on your neck on the top of your shoulders But it all starts with your feet right So once you're cleeter in a position and your feet are on the pedals your feet don't really move Right, so they're kind of like obviously they move through the pedal in circle But relative to the other two contact points on the bike they're pretty well fixed But then you can manipulate where your saddle is in space and where the handlebars are in relation to each other But also to your feet So the way I presented in a bike fit would be like when you're stood vertically and you're stacked Hopefully on top of your feet your body is very good at managing its relationship to gravitate because he gets a lot of practice at doing it and if you're kind of like, you know Relatively stacked your heads on top of your shoulders your shoulders on top of your pelvis and your pelvis on top of your feet Then you are hopefully not gonna fall over. So we revolved. Yeah exactly. Oh default So but you can still be stacked on a bike, but in a different way right So when you hinge forward and lean forward to cover distance from the saddle to the handlebars your head Obviously goes forward and that weight of your head moving forward relative to your foot has to be counteracted in some way shape or form And that's usually by the hips moving backwards So that hinge kind of mechanism where the hip going back and the head going forward Hopefully keeps you quote unquote neutral or balanced or stacked relative to where your foot is in space. This is when you're on the floor When you're on a bike the shoe and the pedal and the cleat interface and how those things interact with each other become the ground So where your body weight is relative to your foot effectively dictates how you manage your relationship to gravity and how much force and input you need to put in in certain areas to manage that relationship and keep self-applied on the bike. Yeah. And we secondarily use our arms to help prop ourselves up. Yeah, yes you do, yeah, but I think the key word is secondarily. So you want to be using probably more of that balance and then strength through core and legs to hold your body in that forward lean on the bike, and then hopefully your arms are there really just to guide the rest of the body to stop it flopping from side to side. Yeah, so there's a hierarchy in where we want the body to be doing the most work in terms of stability, and we want the most work to come from the lower extremity. So hips, hips down, core does a bit, and your arms like you say they want to be guiding the bike so you're contacting the handlebars rather than using it as a stability point. Yeah, and literally guiding the bike because your hands need to be light and free so that you can steer and pilot the bike, because if you're riding with a locked out, hands, wrists, elbows, it's very difficult to steer or direct the bike in a precise kind of way, as well as using your arms for a little bit of suspension and taking some of the shock out of the road as the bike kind of goes over the poles and things like that. You live in England, you're going to hit a pile. So you know, what I think people instinctively try and hold a lot of their body weight through their arms. Would you say so? 100%. Yeah, especially when we see newer ideas and so on. And so part of the skill of riding a bike is finding a way to be balanced enough that you don't have to use your arms, but also consciously, or getting to the point of subconsciously, not having to use your arms as a primary kind of support mechanism. Yeah. Exactly that. Okay. So if we know all that, then when we get into progressive geometry and that pitches our body weight further forward, then I guess we're just going to overload the arms, but we'll create more demand on the arms. Yeah, Jan. I feel like this is a good point to chime in. Yeah. Because I've got some, I think about this a lot, and there's potentially a hot take, but I feel like nine times out of ten when we get someone in for a bike fair who complains of feeling like they're falling forwards, nine times out of ten that in my experience is not actually to do with the fact that their saddle is too far forwards. Correct. And I don't know if this is a hot take, because I think there's, in my opinion, there's a myth out there in the bike fair world, which is that further forward saddle equals more way on hands and further back saddle equals less way on hands. This is an incorrect opinion. What? Right. You're right. Yeah. They're the general bike thicknesses is incorrect. Yeah. Why would you say that's incorrect? Go on. It can be correct. Yeah. Yeah. But in my experience, weight on the hands, so I like to sort of distinguish in the bike fair sessions between the feeling like you're falling forwards and the feeling like you're having to hold onto the hoods or the grips or whatever it is in order to regain some form of stability. Yep. I think most people conflate the two and actually, generally speaking, the latter is usually more so the case than the former. Yeah. So this is good. This is getting into that kind of territory where I want to get to where it's more nuanced than just, you know, if this than that. And I think it's a good starting point to think about that weight distribution of, you know, if you do pictures out or forward, you do picture body weight forward and that does throw more weight forward. And so therefore, one outcome of that is that there could be more weight into the front end of the bike. But you have to balance that with what's happening at the back end of the bike at the same time. So again, it's something that I don't think many people think about. But you know, it's a really important concept to grasp that the harder you push against the pedals, then the more work your legs are doing to push against the bike and essentially lift your body away from the bike. Yep. So it's just managing forces. That's literally all it is. Yeah, the force doesn't disappear, it just changes depending on where you are in relation to your feet and where the contact points are and where the stability comes from, i.e., how hard you push you. So yeah, so gravity is pushing down on you. If you change your weight distribution, then different parts of your body are going to feel the force of gravity and gravity is always working, but we can decide where that force is counteracted and one of the biggest areas of counteracting the force of gravity is through your legs. Is that kind of where you are going, Jen? No, actually, it is entirely true. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So tell us where you are going. There's another component of this as well, which is the stability at your hip due to the range of motion that your hip is having to go through as it comes over the top of the pedal structure. Yeah, yeah. And I think this is where often, like, in actual fact, we need to look at other areas of the bike to take weight off the hands because if there's other areas of the bike that destabilizing your hips on the saddle, then your hands often take over in order to basically hold yourself on the bike so you don't fall off the thing. Yeah. So I think I get where you're going. Would you say that essentially what you're trying to do, when you talk about destabilizing the hip, that means that you're losing some energy, you're basically losing some power of production through your legs. And that instability is basically causing you to lose a bit of power. And so you don't have as much kind of lift from your legs. Yeah. So the relationship to gravity, the amount of power you're putting through the pedal is one aspect of it, but then the other aspect of it is, like, can you tolerate going over the top of the pedal stroke, i.e., that range of motion from being sat further back on the saddle. Stop me if I'm not being clear. From the further back on the saddle, i.e., with a more closed-off hip angle, can you tolerate that without having to compensate the pelvis? So like, can you clear the top of the pedal stroke without forcing a secondary compensation to find stability elsewhere? Yeah. So i.e., if your cranks are too long or you're able to do far back, what are the compensations that you have to go through to compensate for that lack of function? Because essentially what ends up happening, if you push a saddle way too far back and the handlebar is then the same place, which is always the caveat, like, because you can't go over the top of the pedal stroke without having to wrench your pelvis over, i'm demonstrating physically here, i'm aware that people listening can't see that. If you think about that classic saddle rock, right, so someone rocking from side to side as they come over the top of the pedal stroke because their hip or whatever reason can't clear that amount of flexion in the most optimal way, then the body is going to find a way to do it, and usually that results in, yeah, like your self shifting around, hitching your hip up. The TLDR version of all of this is, if your hip is too close to off, your pelvis is going to be going mental rocking from side to side, and then your hands are going to have to take over to control that movement. Exactly. So it's all about. We got it. So it's basically what we have this morning. Exactly what we had this morning, yeah, which is wise on our mind, but what I'm saying is more often than not, this is the case, as opposed to the body weight is being pitched too far forwards, anecdotally from what we see coming through. Well, it's a double edge saddle, right, so both can be true. Which actually was the case with the gen this morning, is that he was both too far forwards and his cranks were too long, because his hands were getting in a double ear, and as it was getting smashed in both ways, yeah, so like, yeah, you can get it both ways. And it can be solved by doing both of those things as well. It depends on the person. Like. I hope this isn't too difficult, but the thing to both explain and grasp, because I've actually, like, I feel like we see this a lot, and I don't think many bike furs necessarily talk about it, even if they understand it. Okay. I'm trying to summarize, so first of all, we are trying to manage our relationship with gravity, progressive bike positions do throw your weight further forward, which does create more demand on hands. There is more weight coming forward, and so that can be a limiting factor in how you manage yourself on the bike, and how long you sustain the position for, et cetera, et cetera. If we think about the position, and we feel like this progressive saddle position is throwing you too far forward, and creating too much demand on the front end, then your logical effects would be to shift everything backwards, so you would shift the handlebars back and the saddle back. But you can also get too far back where you close off the hips, and you're creating instability in the hip, because you're closing off that hip angle, and therefore that creates more demand on the front end of the bike too. So you can be too far forward and create kind of too much demand on the front end, your arms and shoulders, but you can also be too far back and create too much demand on your arms and shoulders, so you need to find a balance even between. Now coming back to a progressive riding position, if you can be in a more kind of forward position, and I think part of the idea of sitting more forward, it's certainly from a like a time trial perspective, the idea was to push your saddle forward, but also up at the same time to preserve leg extension, I'm not going to go into that concept too much here, but it opens up the hip, so in order to keep the same leg extension as you move your saddle forward, you also need to move it up at the same time. So the idea is to open out the hips. Now for some people, that's enough. That you can ride say like the same crank length and if you push saddle up and forward that opens out the hip angle Maybe that's enough of an open hip angle that they can pedal more smoothly They have more stable pelvis they can create more force and therefore stay in that kind of more forward position But for some people the length of the crank it's still be creating too much challenge on that hip angle They run into a block or a Like a smoothness usually as you guys were saying at the top of the pedal stroke Basically where you're that point where you're closing off the hips as much the maximum the point of maximum closure of the hip peak flexion peak flexion There you go. Thank you Turn a little flexion So this is where quite often you'll see a more forward Saddle position being paired with a shorter crank length and some of that is because as you push everything forward It does create more space in the hip and therefore you can actually lower your body into a more Horizontal position which is more aerodynamic, but then that closes off the hip angle again And so in order to keep the open Hip angle that you're trying to achieve in the first place you have to shorten the crank length Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes total sense. There's there's infinite very infinite very. We're just trying to explain We're trying to explain why some of these things might need to happen. We're trying to explain infinite variations in generalities Okay, but I guess an interesting thought experiment could be Keeping some of those variables the same which is how it is on a lot of these modern bikes Yeah, and therefore what else needs that so I'll talk about how to be keeping a handlebars in a fixed position Relative to the geometry of that bike and maybe what else needs to happen in other areas of the geometry of that bike All those positions in order to make that position more achievable Generally speaking because that person has decided in all there was them that they want that bike and it has to be that bike I have a question. Yeah What was the was you mentioned this kid this whole thing of progressive geometry what we've been wittering on about for 20 minutes now What was the actual question that I read a hat? So I don't think you specified it Unless I've fallen asleep What is the possibility for in myself the the question was more specifically about the consequences of Riding in a more progressive road position. So let's just say you transition from a That makes sense. Yeah, you know a factor Ostro to a factor one. Yeah, you know, so essentially pitching everything 20 mil further forward Well, I guess like everything the answering bike is it depends. Yeah, but we can speak in general it is to a point I think yeah, we can try we're fine. I think yeah, we can speak in some generalities Open out a few areas for discussion, but also I wanted to explain That bike manufacturers have actually thought through this equation - so like the interesting thing about the factor one is that it has Quite a low bottom bracket drop compared with a lot of regular road bikes, and I think that that figure has been dropping Over time gradually. Yeah, so what's a tarmac? So if you look at a tarmac in a 56 BB drop is 72 Yeah, factor one in a 56 which has the same stack much longer reach BB drop is 75 actually that crazy. Yeah, and then you go to The greatest bike of 2027 the track tomorrow. Look at the BB drop on that 80 78 or 80 So you want to talk about progressive Progressive bomb maybe the maybe the track tomorrow is the most progressive bike of 2027 If anyone is doesn't know what a bottom bracket drop is it's basically how low the bottom bracket is relative to the wheel axles So generally saying would you say a lower bottom bracket a lower bottom bracket drop But it's just center of gravity lower Closer to the ground and therefore creates a more stable bike generally speaking. Generally speaking. Yeah, but there's consequences to bottom bracket drop as well Right, so mountain bikes and cross bikes have a very high bottom bracket drop I'll tell it right a lot Not enough coffee obviously You know off road bikes will generally have a higher bottom bracket drop to allow For more clearance over obstacles and terrain. So you don't get crank strikes We're pretty particularly on like kind of false suspension bikes where you get a lot of compression Actually has yeah riding my old Santa Cruz blur and nothing not died yet. Oh, it's on its way You got a new one you got a new one mate. Yeah, but it's nice to ride your bike sometimes But it's riding 175 cranks on that with false suspension and my goodness like the amount of rock strikes are yet on that respect to yourself So Yeah, what's the relationship between bottom bracket drop and crank length we We all want like a more stable bike And I've alluded to you know higher bottom bracket heights are there to prevent kind of cranks strikes on kind of terrain And when it comes to road bikes, this does limit your cornering ability So race bikes traditionally had a 68 wheel bottom bracket drop in order to give you enough room to corner Especially through like a crit races. Yeah pedaling through corners. Yeah So how come bottom bracket drops are getting lower cranks again shorter. Yeah, I was getting bigger. Yeah And see two bangles against deeper. Yeah, so another kind of Addition to the progressive geometry trend is that yeah because we're pushing people further forward Closing off hip angles, you know by getting them into more aerodynamic positions Then we're seeing most people going to a shorter crank length than traditionally So I would say below 170 mill you say is that I think these bikes are designed 165 and lower. Yeah, like to be honest like If you look at like you have really games with progressive gravel geometry. Yeah, tires are getting bigger and bigger and bigger Baby drops are getting bigger and cranks again shorter. Yeah So hopefully that gets to a place where you can pedal well create plenty of power because you don't lose power when you have cranks get shorter But you maintain a stable A stable bike one that can store corner well, but you still get all the benefits of an aerodynamic position and wider tire clearance and so on So you know this this trend is actually affecting the the entirety of bike design You say yeah, yeah for sure, and you got to think about who like take the track demanding for example You've got to think about who that bikes marketed that. Oh, yeah, so we haven't even got why is the track demanding which is an endurance robot without Progressive geometry. Why has that got the lowest bottom bracket drop What kind of answer do you want? Do you want a facetious one or actually a considered one obviously both but obviously both well the clearance in that bike Is getting bigger and bigger the tires, right? So like the demanding hour is you know firmly in the copy of I'm using these words, but all That's great. So I think you like you can clear always very clear and this can you clear 40s now? That might just be the one by one. Yeah, I think 38s on the two by I reckon there's a four in there. You reckon there's a you reckon there's a four. Yeah, I was looking at the 51 Seeker. Thank you clear 40s. That's got 40 clearance for 40 mil tires. Yeah, on the Domani. There you go That is madting There you go. There's literally a picture of a dude on gravel, isn't he? Yeah Some gravel adjacent next to some gravel adjacent with a mustache. He sees gravel curious. Yeah He is gravel. We always No, that's what mountain bikes are for But yeah, so 40 mil tires. So yeah, so one of the ways the manufacturers are getting bigger tire clearance is increased BB drop And also as we've spoken before about trek and now spec in their Domani's with shorter cranks relative to the size. So if we look at kind of their extra size chart components Yeah, extra small comes to the 160 crank. Yeah depends on which one you go for But yeah, it's I think they do go down to some in once in the Shimano in Shimano once 160 Thanks shaman goes down to 165. So yeah, so it's all like Come into a head around wider tires shorter cranks BB drop So the question is like how are they designed like what's the thought process in designing these bikes? Who's it for? Are they designing these bikes around tire clearance and then BB drop and shorter cranks length Is a consequence of being able to fit wider tires or are they caught on in on? They're actually a lot of people now are running shorter cranks than they were said 10 years ago And they're designing the whole bike around shorter cranks Yeah, it's just interesting that two very different Designs of bike and clearly have two very different riders in mind. Yeah, you know factor one first to money But they're both trending towards those riders needing What we call relatively shorter cranks. Yeah, you could argue it's for different reasons Yeah, it's definitely for different reasons It's just like a coincidence that they've come to the same destination through a very different lens It's the same reason but for different reasons Maybe that one makes sense We'll leave you with that one But it's, you know, our friend and colleague Dan Pell was in the shop behind us. us walked into the room earlier and asked us if bikes were reaching peak geometry. So is that kind of what you're what you're getting at? No, going back specifically like you know shorter cranks and different geometries and positions are there to enable a better engine, a better person, basically better hip control, better power production, whatever your discipline that you're riding. So if you're riding a factor one, you're going fast, you're trying to get aerodynamic. In order to do that, you need to lower your torso angle. If you lower your torso angle, you close off your hip angle. So in order to open the hip angle so you can still pedal efficiently and effectively, then you need your cranks and a steeper kind of seat sheet angle. That's what I mean, one true geometry. Now I'm not obviously that's not the case. But you know, the consequence of that racey forward position is that maybe it's not as sustainable compared with a demanding question. So this is this is the thinking behind all the marketing, right? And so you know, you have an endurance road bike which is shorter, taller, bit slacker, and therefore supposedly more sustainable. And you know, at the same time, you know, the I guess the the the generality of that rider who's more suited to an endurance road bike is maybe someone who doesn't have the same mobility or the the kind of fitness or just the the ability to sit in that. They go for a ride a weekend and then for the rest of the week, they sit at their desk and you know, have kids and other stress is going on and like they have different focuses in life. Yeah, but you all could be down to morphology as well, right? If you've got ridiculously long fever, putting yourself on a, you know, bike with a 75, 76 degree C tube angle might not be the best thing to do. Or it could be, it could be great. Yeah, who knows. Yeah, but like I've got a question, but you go first. Well, it's just going to say, you know, that tractor money, there's a certain archetype that's associated with that bike and so they need the shorter crank to open the hip angle as well. But for different reasons to that rider who wants the factor one, but the the concept is still the same. We want to keep the hip angle open to create stability and efficient pedaling. However, I think what Chan was trying to allude to is that, you know, because you're in a, I think this is the second half of the conversation is that just because you're in that kind of more, let's say, air quotes, aggressive low aerodynamic progressive geometry, road bike position doesn't actually mean that it's necessarily less sustainable than, you know, the, the money, which kind of sits you at a more upright, it's like a, air quotes, more comfortable kind of endurance position. Is that kind of where you'll go? Yeah, that's certainly part of it. Yeah, I mean, we're like, how often are we telling people in this room that it's a myth that endurance bike, air quotes endurance bikes are always more comfortable? Yeah, like it's much more nuanced to it than that. Yeah, and part of that is just morphology, right? So body shape, we've talked about kind of bike brands that offered like two different geometries for the same style of bike, and that seems to make sense, shout out for air, like, yeah, so, you know, having different frame stack and reach ratios, so to suit different kind of limb lengths, so on. So I'll point you back to that kind of discussion we had in previous podcasts. But yeah, you made an interesting point just now, Matt, talking about someone with long femurs, like if someone is a very leg dominant rider, so relatively they have a shorter torso, but much longer legs, then usually we would initially start with thinking that maybe they would suit a geometry, which is relatively taller and stack, but shorter and reach, because their legs are long, but they're torso short, so they have relatively shorter reach. But that isn't always the case. I think I had that, eventually, was it yesterday? I can't even remember the days now. Yeah, and that was the toe opposite. He needed, because he had long legs, he really needed to kind of sit as far forward as possible in order to open out the hips as much as possible, for longer your limbs and longer your legs, the more closure you're going to get at that hip angle at the top of your pedal stroke. And so actually, sitting you further forward is more important than certain bikes will allow you to do that and other bikes won't. But that was another great example of where we were fitting him to a bike where the handlebars were relatively, at least the achievable height of the handlebars was relatively fixed. Yeah. So there's so much more that goes into it, going on visual aids. Yeah. I mean, I definitely had a guy who I fitted to a factor one, and literally, I think that was the only or the best possible bike that he could be riding. Mainly because he had, you know, historically he'd been at professional level in kind of road racing. He'd taken a long time off, mainly because he had had some pretty serious hip injuries, but he decided he wanted to come back to cycling, but his hip injuries essentially meant that he had very little hip flexion, like he could tolerate very little hip flexion. So you'd either have to put him on really short cranks or put him really far forward or have a kind of forward seating position and therefore a really steep seachy wrangle. So the factor one was perfect. I think, you know, the ball was a seachy wrangle, like 76. So I remember putting him, almost as far forward as possible, putting him on a Bontrega Aeola saddle, which has a super long rail so you could shove the saddle all the way forward again. Just for argument sake, because I know like, you know, other bike fitters would pose this sort of question, why could you not just raise the handlebars and bring them closer towards him? Because that would be the other way that you would open up the hip angle. Yeah, yeah. So I think for there's a certain feel to the bike that you kind of want you by to feel. Yeah. So and I think this is where it gets really individual. I think everyone has a particular torso angle which they get to and if you hit it and it's really difficult to kind of articulate unless you've been there, but you kind of hit this kind of torso angle where you're leaning forward a certain amount where suddenly everything kind of clicks and your hips, your glutes, your quads, everything kind of works really well together and you feel stable, you feel strong, your breathing's good, your diaphragms got enough room to breathe and to create the kind of oxygen generation that you need to kind of power through your muscles. It's a bit like the best way that I can explain it is bit like when you're at the beginning of a road running track race and you're in the starting blocks and you're just getting ready to go and you'll find an angle where you're just ready to explode out of the blocks that feels like you're just right on the edge and I think that's where people want to be if they want to be in a good racing position because you feel you can just access that power through your legs super efficiently. Yeah, there's consequences to that as well, right? So you have to be trading enough force through your feet in order to manage your relationship to gravity for as long as your rides need to go. Sure. So my question 15 minutes ago was before I got hijacked, was going to be practically like in the real world, how do we fit these bikes? Yeah. And go on. Yeah, yeah. So that's exactly the right kind of line of questioning you get to. So I think that's where Chan was getting to where, you know, you get some people who can sit in these really forward positions because they can generate a lot of power. Because they got well to a loss. Yeah. Which is why, you know, why Poggy sits in the position he does or Remco sits in position, like, you know, all the, or Campanars, you know, they sit in these really far forward positions because they are, their power to weight ratio is ridiculous. And so if you've got good power to weight, then you're able to manage your relationship to gravity much more easily. Yeah. And yeah. So there's a delicate balance between being able to, if we sit you forward, maybe you can create more power. And therefore that offsets the force of gravity acting upon the front end of the bike. But the question is always, yeah, how long can you sustain that work rate for? Your bike might feel the best at that point where you're like putting out loads of watts and you're going really fast and everything just clicks into place. But yeah, as you were saying, is that the kind of riding that you're going to be doing most of the time? What happens when you go on the slow group ride? Is there another position on that bike that you can adopt? When I was bike guiding, you know, many, many moons ago, like, the hardest ride for always the slowest rides because my bike was set up to be, to feel really good when I was going fast. And so, unknowingly, at that time, I had everything really far forward. Is this the Sevello? Yes. Yeah. Sevello. You crashed. Yes. Because I had everything you had. Everything really far forward. Yeah. And I was going down mountains, like, way to our control. So yes, there are consequences, people. Yeah. And I think like, in terms of like practicalities, like, how do you fit these bikes to real-world people? There are certain and hierarchies and considerations that you can use. need to square away in order for these bikes to feel as good as they can, if they're being ridden by people without well-to-what. And I think like, this is, and we spoke about this where we talked about the factor when it was released with Down. It's like, how do you get people comfortable on these bikes? Well, is that the point? Is that the real question? Or is it just how do you manage it? So it feels as good as it can with what you're working with? I mean, this is, this is why bike fit is a little bit stupid in some ways. I agree. Correct. You know, nothing really matters until you go and ride the bike outside and nothing, you don't know anything until someone goes and rides the bike and part of the process is making sure that the rider goes out of the room knowing where they are, where they could be, but also what consequences they might expect and then going and riding their bike and you know, testing the position. Was it something that works, you know, 110% on paper might just be not to that person's preferences? Yeah. So going back to the last week's podcast about handling and skill, so much of that is dependent on the person themselves. The bike and the position will enable a certain kind of feel to the bike, but whether or not that person gets that feel or is competent enough to get that feel or is relaxed enough to get that feel that we were aiming for, we just don't know until they go and ride the bike up and down mountain or at their local crit race and so on. So, you know, you have to go and bikes are for riding outside, you got to go out and test it. And yeah, there's, I mean, I got an email this morning back from someone who was saying that, oh, my knees are kind of like really hurting now, my quads are really overloaded. I've got some kind of pain in the front of my feet and that was because we pushed him into a more progressive or more forward position for him because his cockpit was immovable and he didn't want to change his cockpit and actually he didn't want to change his cranks either. So we said, look, this is the best position to preserve the reach to your handlebars, you can reach your controls all right, your leg extension is good, but your weight distribution is very far forward. And in order to feel good on this, then you're probably going to have to shorten the cranks as well so that you're not closing up your hips enough, you're not compressing your knees enough. But, you know, you didn't really want to change that much about his bike until he got out and ridden the bike. So, don't hold, you go out and ride the bike and you find that your knees hurt. Okay, that's the sign that, okay, we need to make some changes. Well, the other part of this is what I mean, the honest conversation about what you actually do with your bike. Yes. So if you're in your mind wanting to go and ride around it for a year and hour all the time and you know, you're pushing really hard on the pedals and you can do that for the duration of your rides, then maybe that position would have felt better, whereas in reality, you know, if you're riding around it, you know, 25k an hour, maybe the forces acting upon you are not in alignment with your reality. And that's where you get some of that discomfort from. Yeah. So having an honest reflection and honest conversation with yourself about what you actually do with your bike, how fast you actually ride your bike for how long and over what to ride and how you want your bike to feel can actually influence how your bike feels in reality as well. And what the position can do to help you or hinder you in achieving that. I mean, someone literally said last week that this was like a therapy session when they came to see us. And yeah, I went a bit hard to be fair. I remember that one because we didn't change anything. Literally did not change any bike fit in. But you know, this is where the kind of gold is, right? Because you know, bike fitting doesn't matter until people go ride their bikes. And you know, until we get that feedback of like, oh, my knees hurt. And my quads are on fire. We can then enable that conversation of like, well, why do you think that is? You know, do you remember that conversation we had? Could it be because of this or this? And you know, it helps like people just, they can't just like kind of trust you immediately and just say, oh, I can just try and change everything just because you said so. I mean, some people say that. Yeah, you've got to build the trust and obviously build the picture in getting the feedback as to why certain things feel that they do, how they do, right? So there's an element of testing, which is why we always do follow-ups, right? And why there's a follow-up included with the initial session. But then the other element to this is like, you know, it was a great quote. It was like, you know, the magic is in the work that's not being done. Yeah. And there are certain things that need to happen in order to reach, you know, where you want to be on your bike and how you want to be on your bike to feel and you've got to plug those gaps if you're not doing that specific work in order to make your bike feel good. And sometimes it takes, it takes years, you know, but there, you know, people have to come to their own conclusions or see that kind of see the light as it were. Or I think the key for bike fitters is to be able to explain why they are feeling, how they're feeling. You've got to be able to, as long as you can explain why, then I think people, you know, will, they understand it and go to communicate it. Yeah. Yeah. Much like we're communicating so well today. Well, I can't. No, I don't have coffee. But it's true. Like, yeah, there's only so much communicating that can be done. And there's, you know, there's no substitute for your own experience. Yeah. And your own feedback. It's just you've got to be in tune with the feedback that you're getting and act accordingly upon that feedback. There we go. So progressive geometry. Did we answer the question? Yeah. There's, there's consequences to progressive geometry, but that can be offset with certain things. Bioman manufacturers have thought about this equation and designed bikes in a totally different way, which is more than just increasing C2 angles and reach as taking into account crank length and bottom bracket drop as well. But really, the key is to understand what kind of rider you are, what you're doing, what your body is capable of. And where do you want to feel really good on your bike? You know, do, do you really want to feel really good when you're in a racey kind of forward position or do you actually just want to ride all day? Or, you know, as as my one of my clients had certain injuries and actually the more aggressive, quote, aggressive bike is the best bike for them because that's the one that enables them to ride and ride pain-free and they do have the strength to hold that position. So yeah, lots to think about me. That's created more questions than we have answered. Yeah, there's my brains going nuts. You can ultimately, you can go around in circles to the end of the universe with this stuff. Yeah. If you do so, I wish. Yeah. And, but I think this is where algorithmic or aesthetic bike fitting is really dangerous. 100% agree. And I was thinking that exact same thing just then is that like, well, I don't know if dangerous is the right word. But like, ultimately, all of these things that we've said are coming from the place of when we're in a bike fit session, we want the best possible outcome in that moment for that person. Yeah. And taking all these things into account is in some ways, it's the best ways for this. In some ways, a much more kind of compassionate worship of like working with someone as opposed to just being like, well, like, you know, the reach that's a bit long, let's put a short stem on. Yeah. Yeah. Or, you know, focusing on getting people within the entire body angle range. Exactly. I mean, like, yeah, everything fits within the range. But body angles don't tell you which muscles are working or like how the rider feels and where their tension is in their body and where they're going to be in half an hour, one hour or six to five. Yeah. And I said aesthetic kind of fitting where people basically want to look a certain way, because we live in the Instagram age, everyone wants the aesthetic. Here's some people who just don't look all the dogs like. Yeah. There's consequences. There's consequences to everything. So really, yeah, we're just trying to get a little bit deeper into how people move and why they do it. Oh, all right. Therapy. Well, hopefully that's answered your questions. And if you've got any more questions about what we talked about, please do let us know. We'll do our best to talk about it for an hour and not answer them. I'm back now. I think it's time to get some more coffee. We'll see you on the next one guys. Thanks again for listening. And yeah, see you on the next one. If you made it to the end of this episode, thanks for listening. If you enjoyed what you heard, do leave us a rating or review as this really helps other riders find our podcast too and motivates us to keep making more episodes. Thanks for your support, and catch you on the next one. Suffering from numb hands, tingling toes and any other persistent discomforts when you ride, these are all signs that your bike fit could be improved. If you're bike fit curious, get in touch with way or map by emailing [email protected] or find them on Instagram @fdnundascore. bike fit. Until next time, keep on spinning.