2026 Update: Tony

(upbeat music) - Pushkin. - Hello. - Who's Jonathan? - Who is this? - Hi, this is Khalilahole, your producer. - Well, hello. - Hello. - Nice to have you back in the studio, welcome. - Nice to be reunited in this auditory space. - Yes, indeed it is, have a seat, please. - I'm not already sitting, but thank you. - Yes. - We are gonna revisit some favorite episodes this spring. - Yes, I couldn't be more excited, do I say? - We sound not excited at all, but yeah. - You know, sometimes my enthusiasm doesn't come across and I'm always surprised like in photos, I think that I'm smiling, but then when I see the photos, not only am I not smiling at all, it looks like I'm scowling. - I have a really hard time showing enthusiasm too. I've noticed that often when I try to like really lean into enthusiasm in my voice, it sounds like I'm being sarcastic. - Yeah, but I am excited and I'm gonna prove to you. - I'm gonna prove to you my excitement and my enthusiasm as this conversation goes on. - Okay, I look forward to that. - Yes. - And we're gonna also check in with our former guests because you know, a lot of them have had some changes in the year since. - Whereas stories and lives continue. And so. - Well, lives do end eventually. - Oh God, thanks for bringing the whole thing down. - I'm just, I mean, it's everyone's thinking it. - All right, anyway, who are we talking about today? - So today, we're gonna revisit the episode, Jonathan, about your friend, Tony, from our very first season. - I love it, it's been a long time. - Yeah, that was my favorite episode that season. Something about it just really moved me. - Again, it sounds like I'm being sarcastic, but I'm serious, I really liked it. - No, no, I believe you, it's a personal favorite of mine because Tony's one of my best friends. And he's an interesting man and his life beyond the story continued to be interesting and flow in all kinds of unexpected and original directions. So I was really excited to check in with him after we kind of, what's the thing that they do in movies like after the rap party of this episode? - And actually, speaking of rap parties. - Yes, you want me to do some rapping? - Nope, no, thank you. I have a fun little fun story from production. - Oh, please. - Which is that there's a part in this where one of Tony's God Sun says, it's over for you, you old sausage. - Yeah. - When we celebrated the first season, I, at the suggestion of Chris Neary, one of the producers on the first season, went and got a cake and I asked them to put on it's over your old sausage. - I do remember this and I thank you again for that. But if you had to do it all over again, if you were to make edits, might you say it's not over your young sausage? - It's still going your young sausage. - So. - Enjoy. - Yeah, enjoy, we'll check in with Tony at the end of the episode and not to over-promise, but there's just a lot that's gone on in his life and a lot that continues to go on. - Yes. - But first things first, a word from our sponsors. - This is an I Heart Podcast, guaranteed human. Malcolm Gladwell here, my new book, The American Way of Killing investigates America's gun violence crisis. Why is the richest country in the world plagued by such lethal violence? Through a series of stories, interviews, and archival tape, I confront one of today's most urgent moral dilemmas and examine why the US has never quite understood its own problem and why you can't fix what you refuse to see clearly. Pre-order The American Way of Killing at pushkin.fm/audi.com audiobooks or wherever audiobooks are sold. (phone ringing) - I think they have a contact me outside. We have to leave it about 10 minutes, okay? - Hi. - This is Kaleela from Gimlet Media. Please hold for Jonathan Goldstein. - I'm sorry, who is this? - Kaleela from Gimlet Media. Please hold. Please hold. Yeah. (upbeat music) - Wow. Hello. - Hello. - How nice of you to take the call from yourself. - Oh, hey, Jackie. - You feel surprised that you called me. - So nice to hear from you. - I didn't call you. - I didn't realize that I had you on my calendar, but this is great, how are you doing? It's been so busy, it's nice to like decompress and have a normal conversation. How's it going? (upbeat music) - From Gimlet Media, I'm Jonathan Goldstein and this is "Heavy Weight." Today's episode, "Tony." - Paul? How are you? - Very good, thanks. - I was wondering if you would be up for meeting me for an hour. - Okay, well, well, well, about? - Well, absent for most of your life. And, you know, I've always felt bad about it. - Here's something you don't hear every day. A godfather awkwardly asking out his 31 year old godson on a god date. - Well, I know you're busy. I know you're busy at life now, father of two, but if you can spare an hour Monday or Tuesday night, you know, I'm very busy. - Unfortunately, a week in advance, not the, I don't know what the hell's going on. - The godfather being blown off is my friend, Tony. The realization that he needed to be a better godfather came suddenly. It was like if Vito Corleone woke up one morning and thought, you know, godfathering should be more than just decapitating horses. And then, picked up a rotary phone and asked Johnny Fontaine out on an ice cream date. But to explain how Tony got to this point, let's go back to the beginning. It all started when Tony and I were catching up and regarding work, how is that going? - Good. - It's really great. I'm actually enjoying the process I'm making this film, which is I think the really amazing thing about the past year. - This past year has been a hard one for Tony. He's recently divorced and still adjusting. The house that has been settled. - Yeah, everything is settled. Everything is settled. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - I first met Tony in college when he was a young film student with manic energy, jeans, shallot, curly black hair, and gray clothes that always smelled of Greek food. After college, we became roommates. And on the weekend, his mother would visit. She referred to me as Gatso Mili's Mano Evriacchi, which I think translates loosely as the alley cat-haired little Jew. But I didn't mind, because whenever she showed up, she brought homemade spinocopita and teramousalada. Tony would wash down these grecian delights with copious amounts of booze. Pretty soon, he started washing everything down with booze. There's an image from that time that stuck with me. Tony had decided to join me at the gym after downing a half-bottle of vodka. I remember him wailing on the heavy bag in his undershirt and gray jeans, looking a little like a kid pounding on the floor, fed up with everything. Eventually, Tony turned to harder drugs, like heroin. And soon after that, we stopped being roommates. Tony went to rehab, and after he got out, spent some years putting his life back together. He had a few relationships, and then he met Natalie. Natalie was smart and loved to write, and when Tony hugged her, she disappeared into his body. Tony's a big guy with a thick black beard covering his boyish face, and Natalie was apple-cheeked and glamorous. I like being around them. One time, while walking by a curiosity shop, I saw a comically small ping-pong table in the window. Immediately, I thought of Tony and Natalie. I imagine the two of them in their kitchen smacking a little ball back and forth together and laughing. During their wedding vows, Natalie said, "I vow to grow old with you, but most of all, to grow young with you." And Tony interrupted her right in the middle, eyes welling up to say, "Me too." It was like he'd blown his youth, but was getting another chance. But then, at some point around three years in, things started to get tougher. Tony spent a lot of time locked in his studio, working obsessively on his movies, and Natalie started to feel hamstrung by Montreal. It's smallness, the lack of opportunities. They wanted a baby, but were having a hard time with it. And then, Tony's dad died, making him the sole caretaker of his mother, a woman who didn't shy away from espousing strong opinions about her son's personal life. All of this was hard on him and Natalie. She was not happy. She was not happy. She was not happy. She just didn't want to be here. Natalie wanted to start a new life in a new place, but Tony felt happily stuck in the old one. And he couldn't leave his mother all alone. So when Natalie decided to leave town, he knew he couldn't go with her. Was there ever a conversation in which you were both trying to envision a way in which you could leave the city? No, because there wasn't a way. Like even with your mother to go with you. Why is that so? Tony's mother is an 84-year-old Greek woman with little English, whose only hobbies are meticulously cleaning her toaster oven and ringing her hands while frowning. And so in here lies the heart of Tony's current problem. Before they separated, Tony and Natalie were trying to have a baby. And now he finds himself alone, middle-aged, and worried he's missed his last chance to have a kid. I don't think there's a point to anything if you don't have a relationship with a young person. How do you mean? If I sit here in the dark thinking about it and realizing, you know, I'm 46 years old and I live alone and I'm not, you know, probably not going to have kids and who the fuck gives a shit if I live or die. Aside from my mother and a few friends, but really, who gives a shit, you know? Who's going to feel a loss? I'm not saying that in a negative way, but who do I mean something to? Who's life have I enriched? Like I don't think I don't understand what there is to do here if you're not somehow helping or being connected to a younger person. Lately, Tony's been thinking about three young people he had been connected to is estranged God children. Tony admits to screwing up those three relationships during three difficult chapters in his life, drug addiction, rehab, and divorce. What if you were to try to get them back in your life? I'm not sure what difference I can make in somebody's. It's kind of like, hey, here I am. Now I'm ready for you. Like I haven't been here all these years, but hey, here I am now. You know, not hearing my friend give up on himself so easily, I decide to suggest something bold. Why not try reaching out to the God kids he lost now? I mean, I actually do want to have a relationship. I do. You don't know until you at least try, right? I'm open to anything. Do you have their phone numbers? I get him to tell me about them, beginning with the first Paul. I was 16 years old. It was very formal. I held this kid in a Greek Orthodox baptism ceremony for an hour. My arm almost fell off. Babies are really heavy, especially when you have one arm to hold onto them and you have a candle in the other. Yeah, but it was cute. You know, I was really young and I was close to their family, but I was 16. Within like two years, I was a Raven Lunatic alcoholic drug addict. I didn't see much of him or anybody at all from the family for quite a few years and I didn't think about him much. That's for sure. And this God kid, what's his name? His name is Paul. And Paul would be about 30 years old now? Yeah, he's 31. And here's the thing. I've never actually talked to him about how he felt having absentee Godfather, but he beat me at an arm wrestle. I think you really enjoyed that. And when you say you enjoyed that, he enjoyed hanging out and spending time with you or he enjoyed beating you. Enjoyed beating me. For for for being such a crappy Godfather. That's what I'm saying. Is there a particular question that you would want to pose to him or to all of them? Do you hate me? Like, does it mean anything? That I'm somebody's Godfather because I said so or somebody said so or we did something a long time ago? It can mean nothing or it can mean something. Godfather's a big fucking deal if you think about it. It has a spiritual implication. God, right? It's not toilet father. And so with my encouragement, Tony picked up the phone and reached out to Paul, which brings us back to the phone call you heard earlier. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, give me a call the weekend and we'll try to figure something out. Okay, great. I'll call you. Perfect. Sorry. It's so good. Oh, thank you. On Saturday, Tony called. With no response, he reached out again and again. Eventually, he gave up. Tony and Paul never got together. Welcome, Gladwell here. My new book, The American Way of Killing, investigates America's gun violence crisis. Through a series of stories, interviews and archival tape, I confront one of today's most urgent moral dilemmas and examine why the US has never quite understood its own problem and why you can't fix what you refuse to see clearly. Prior to the American Way of Killing at pushkin.fm/audiobooks or wherever audio books are sold. Tony and I reconvened and I tried to bolster his spirits. Maybe things would go better with God's child the second. Zoe. She is the daughter of a rehab buddy who's actually also a drug dealer here in Montreal when I was dealing dealing in Montreal. And we met in rehab in Ottawa. And he asked me, "Do you want to be her godfather?" I said, "Sure." I said, "Are you guys in Batteries?" I said, "No, be her godfather." Okay, great. And so it was just like that. That was easy. Yeah. But it was meaningful. I was happy to do whatever was going to be required of me. And I did see the kid, you know, when she was young. And then I moved to Montreal. And so she basically grew up without me. In the intervening years, Tony's only seen Zoe a couple times. When she comes to town, she doesn't bother looking him up. Because I remember how I used to see people that were, like, never in my 40s. Yeah, like people in their 30s were crusty, you know, a yellow toenailed, you know, old people. And occasionally, you know, I get like she likes something on my Facebook page and I'd be like, "Ooh!" But Tony wants more than that. Since Zoe still lives in Ottawa just a two-hour drive away, I suggest you go visit her. Maybe it isn't too late. But after his failed attempt with Paul, he isn't sure she'll even want to see him. So I offered a road trip down with him for emotional support. You know, the whole purpose of this thing is for you not to be a deadbeat goddad. I know I feel really bad, it's my fault. It's always last week of high school. And Tony's arranged to pick her up after her day of finals. You don't mind driving a little fast to you. Don't go in like snail-paced grandma style. That's my style, grandma style. When we get to the school, Zoe's waiting outside. All right, here we go. You feeling good? I'm feeling good. There we go. Here we go. Hello. Hello. How are you? Zoe is 18. She's wearing a yin and yang choker around her neck and a pink scrunchy in her hair. So how's everything? How are you? Really good. Almost done high school. The final frontier. So good. Let's go to the park. Would you like some candy? As Tony's emotional support system, I thought it might be helpful to bring refreshments. We drive along chewing in silence. And then Tony decides to break the ice. I have a really good disgusting story to tell you. Well, can you contextualize what disgusting is? Oh my god. I'm the only thing about it because it happened right on here. Oh no, I don't like where this is going. A friend of mine has been collecting his vomit for the past 20 years in a gigantic tin, like a gigantic metal drum in the basement. Oh my god. What the heck? That's so terrible. Why would you, why would you bring something like that up right now? It just happened right around here. So like, how did you find out about that? So many questions. And fun fact, the vomit house is on Ralph Street. Google map it. It's right there next to Brown's inlet. The park we're on our way to. [MUSIC] I've only been to this park once before, and that was a weird day. I started dating this guy and the first time we ever hung out outside of school was in this park. We were on those swings, and I just remember being like, "Wow, this is really weird. This is a date." So I guess that was my first date. We find a picnic table beside the playground where young mothers are playing with their babies. Tony and Zoe sit side-by-side, she fiddling with a strand of hair, and he's staring at the table, sweeping pebbles of sand back and forth. The two of them catch up, it turns out Zoe's taking improv classes, and Tony's taking improv classes too. Oh, I'd love to see that. I'd love to see that. You'd like my troop, I think you'd like those guys a lot. Being both a friend who wants to encourage bonding, as well as a lover of show business, I ask if they might improvise a scene or two. This is my favorite bench. It's funny because it's also my favorite bench, and I've actually never seen you sitting here. But instead of the comedic romp I'd hoped for, I get a sluggish five-minute piece of Samuel Biketti in theater. So I guess what I'm saying is, you'll either have to move to the bench dots beside mine or beside his. And scene. I thought like improv is supposed to be funny. Well, because usually it's energy in your own stage, and you're doing stupid shit, and people are laughing, you're not laughing. And in my heart, it feels like Christmas morning on Ralph Street, as Tony and Zoe begin to bond. They're having fun, but Tony's still thinking about Godfatherhood. Tensatively, he brings it up. The Godfather, traditionally, is what Godfather's supposed to do to provide spiritual instruction. And I wasn't there when you were really young. When you were told, when you were young, this is Tony, he's your Godfather. Do you remember that? I always knew that you had this connection to my parents that was really valuable. So by extension, you'd be valuable to me, even though I didn't know you that well. Yeah. What can I offer you at this point, from this point onward, in a formal fashion? I don't know what you hope for me to provide for you as a God. To provide for me? Yeah. I mean, it's a two-way street. I can't just take so much and not give anything to you. Well, that's the point. That's the point that I'm here for you. That is the point, with a God child, not so much with a God adult. The children's book is called The Giving Tree, not The Giving and Taking Tree. Children aren't self-conscious. They don't find it weird to take without giving anything in return, but adults do. I'm beginning to feel like pushing Tony to reconnect with his God children might have been full hearty. Tony can't just insert himself into a past he missed out on. And as for the future, Zoey's getting ready to go off to college. She's at the point in life when actual parents see less and less of their kids, never mind Godparents. She was a little bit country and he was a little bit rock and roll. That was the song. I'm a little bit country. Yeah, I'm a little bit reverse. I'm a little bit. As Tony sings both parts of Adani and Marie duette, Zoey watches him with a big smile on her face. It's clear they really enjoy each other, and the afternoon goes well. But as far as the God parental relationship Tony wants, it feels like it just might be too late. I'm really impressed. I think you've got a pretty firm hold on things. Well, I mean, if you're ever in dire need for like a caregiver when you're old and can't go to the bathroom or something, I could help you. Only one God child to go will Tony be a Godfather or a toilet father? Is the cat still in the cradle? And if so, will he scratch Tony's eyes out when roused from his Godfatherless slumber? We'll find out after these important messages from our sponsors. Malcolm Gladwell here. My new book The American Way of Killing investigates America's gun violence crisis. Through a series of stories, interviews, and archival tape, I confront one of today's most urgent moral dilemmas, and examine why the U.S. has never quite understood its own problem, and why you can't fix what you refuse to see clearly. Prior to the American Way of Killing at pushkin.fm/audiobooks or wherever audiobooks are sold. Tony's first Godchild, Paul, didn't have the time for a relationship, and his second Godchild, Zoe, had outgrown the whole Godfather Goddaughter thing. That left him one last chance, nine-year-old Nicholas, Godchild the Third. Nicholas, Godchild number three is Nicholas, the son of my cousin. This one is especially challenging for Tony, because unlike with Paul and Zoe, Tony's not the only Godparent in the picture. Tony's ex-wife Natalie was warm and likeable. When they started dating, she helped him reconnect with his family. So much so, though when Nicholas was born, his mom, a cousin Tony wasn't even especially close to, asked them both to be his Godparents. Tony and Natalie were together at Nicholas's baptism. I was holding him, and he was really upset until I took him, and he was quiet the whole time. And everybody was kind of spooked by the fact that he was suddenly so quiet when I was holding him. So there was this whole kind of energy around like, "Oh, why is this power Tony has over Nicholas or why is he so quiet?" And everybody seemed to make a kind of a strange impression on people, and it felt good to sort of be, I guess, for whatever reason. And nothing to do with me, somehow this kid felt soothed or calmed by me. And we baptized the kid, we had a big party, and then we started, we were there every year, like 34 times a year, which is pretty good. But it was all good, but it was all about being with Natalie. Natalie was the initiator. She's the one who planned the Godparents stuff, like trips with Nicholas to the movies in the museum. Nicholas loved Natalie and related to her and Tony as a unit. So when that unit split up, Tony couldn't bring himself to keep visiting Nicholas and his mom. It reminded him too much of Natalie. I didn't feel like seeing them. I didn't feel like going to her house because I always went there with Natalie. But Nicholas' mother continued to reach out. Nicholas really misses you, she'd write. Eventually, she suggested they all get together on neutral ground, her sister's house. So we did. We set up a surprise dinner, which was about two months ago. And I went over and they were really happy to see me. But at the same time, I noticed Nicholas' first reaction, he was kind of shocked. And I could see that all this stuff went through his eyes, and then he put on this kind of smiley happy guy thing. I could read it all in his face right away. And you think that was because Natalie wasn't there? Yeah, yeah. Tony's afraid that Nicholas won't want a relationship with him that doesn't include Natalie. Afraid that maybe he's not the God parent that Nicholas wants. But he also doesn't want to repeat the same mistakes. So he screws up his courage and goes back over for dinner, hoping he and Nicholas can connect again. But before Tony gets a chance to sit down, the very first words out of Nicholas' mouth. "But Tony, how's Natalie?" And Natalie, she's okay. If he just could get back with her, that would be relief. Why would that be a relief? No, I want to see her again, because I never get to see her. That's true. I only see you. And that's not enough. You will see her again, and she says hi, because she's not Australia. Actually, she's in New Zealand. You don't want to be in the place that she is, right? Well, I don't want to be in New Zealand, because it's far away from everything that I do. My mother's here. My mother's an old lady. She's 85 years old and she needs me. I actually can't live alone. So I can't go anywhere. So, it's Natalie who doesn't want to be here. It's over for you. It's over for you. It's sausage. It looks like that. But you never know. I'm not in love with anybody else. They sit down on the couch and Tony faces the thing that's hardest for him to talk about. Even with adults, let alone a child. So, are you going to be sad if you don't see her again? A bit. I can't just kidding a lot. Is there anything that you want to ask me, or what Natalie or anything? Did you feel like a part of your heart broke up to pieces? Yeah. Eat it? Yeah. Very much. A lot. Do you miss her a lot? Yeah. I do. Well, you should have said this. Come back when if you come. You could come back when if you want. Or just say. Or just say sorry or something? Yeah. I did. Okay. I said sorry. And she had things to be sorry about too. And then I said come back. For a long time I said come back whenever you want. And I think. I think she decided not to. I think she decided. Maybe it's because Post Canada takes a long time to get a note really long. No, but I write her on the internet. Oh, internet? Yeah. Oh, that makes more sense. I thought you brought some Post Canada out. Tony's putting away his own feelings and focusing on Nicholas's, which is a very godfatherly thing to do. And Nicholas, for his part, seems to be straining on his emotional tiptoes to try to reach Tony. And together, they meet somewhere in the middle. Do you remember when I baptized you, right? Yeah. And you were crying. You were really upset. I had to pick you up. When I picked you up, you went totally quiet. Everybody was like, "You're so quiet." And everybody said, "You made him calm." And I thought, "That's cool. Maybe that's what godfather is supposed to do." This is supposed to make people calm and be like, "Everything's okay. Don't worry about it." But let me ask you something. Yeah. What kind of godfather do you want me to be? I wanted you to be the same thing as you are right now. Which is what? You're a really good godfather. I am. Yeah. You're pretty good. Thanks, man. I appreciate that. That's very nice of you. As I told you, you're really good. You're a godfather. Thank you. That's awesome. Cool, man. And with that, Tony was a godfather. Because when your godchild tells you you're a godfather, you're a godfather. When I talked to Tony a couple weeks later, he'd already seen Nicholas again. They went to visit Tony's mom. He said she liked having a kid around, to wait on, to serve Spenacopita. She was laughing at her heart. This is the best day that I ever had. Yeah, we'll see. And it's only just begun. Now that the furniture's returning to its goodwill home, Now that the last month's rant is scheming with the damage that caused it, take this moment to decide. If we meant it, if we tried, I felt around for five days. From things that accidently taught us. Recording. Have you wait to update? Jonathan Goldstein, these time video. Hey, hey, let me just. Let me show you what's happening here. So it's recording on the MacBook mic. You're getting a MacBook mic. You're getting the iPhone, like six inches from my mouth. You know what you're doing. You know Jackie Cohen would say, huh? Fuck you. She would be like, look at you. You think you need three microphones. Well, you have to say it's so important. Oh, because everyone wants to hear what you have to say, yeah. Yeah, it was always as high by the way. Say hi to you. That's so nice. I told her I'd be talking to you. And how is Oee? Great. I mean, she's, you know, she's 28 now. Oh my. And she's been dating a nice Greek boy since then, more or less. You're kidding. No, I'm not kidding. And he's great. He's awesome. She didn't move far from home. She has like a great job. And I was sure she would move to Montreal, like all her friends did. And everybody moves to Montreal. But she never did. I admire that because she's really building a strong foundation. And she's very happy. That's wonderful. I'm so glad to hear that. And Nicholas is like amazing. I think I told you he's a track athlete, like a star athlete. Really? Yeah. He's graduated from high school. Yeah. And he's like coaching me now. And he's just turned into a really amazing like resilient, like deals with all kinds of hardship really maturely. Like a total opposite of me. Like I don't know. He says he gets spiritual guidance from me, but I don't know what that would be. Or if he's just blowing smoke up my ass, you know, that's you guys have a special connection. But that's we do. We laugh a lot. Like we have a good relationship. We have a really good time. That's so nice. So how are you? I mean, you look well. Thanks. So do you. Oh, well, you don't have to say that. No, but you do. I mean, basically, I'm okay. I'm a three and a half months into the stay here, which is going to be a year. Wait a second. So why don't you explain what here is? Right. Of course. I have to do that. Here is the Clear Sky Meditation and Study Center. It's like a Buddhist-based retreat center in the Rocky Mountains of Canada. And it's where I live with 12 other people who are permanent, well, long-term residents. And I'm trying it out for a year. I'm living in a kind of pseudo-monastic situation. And there's deer everywhere. And they just stand like 10 feet away and stare at you before they dart off. There's coyotes and howling 30 feet from the building at night. It's really beautiful. It's tough. It's tough here. It's tiring. It's not for everybody. Could you just explain a little about how you found out about this place? Yeah, I owe this to my former mother-in-law, Natalie's mom, actually. Just a couple of years into my relationship with Natalie, I was looking for a place to meditate. And she picked up a flyer from this place. She used to go to yoga and said, "This guy is supposed to be good." And when I showed up, I realized, "Oh, this is traditional religious Buddhism." My first reaction was, "No, I didn't, I came to the wrong place. This is not way." I don't think so, basically. But he was a very down-drowed teacher and he just talked and made a lot of sense to me. And I connected really quickly with him. So what is the path that you're on right now? You're thinking of staying there for a year, but that is in service to possibly staying there forever? Possibly. Anything is possible right now, at this moment in time, anything is possible. I don't know what I'm going to do. And you're comfortable with that? Well, not really, but yes, also. I don't know what choice to have. I don't want to live in Montreal when I started taking care of my mom when she got sick. We should say that in the time since the episode, your mother has passed away. And that sort of both freed you and untethered you from the city from Montreal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So my mom was diagnosed with dementia right before COVID and it was horrifying. The onset was horrifying because you don't know what it means. You don't know what it's going to mean to take care of somebody who's demented. You have the worst kind of ideas in my head, but it turned out to be, yeah. My stint is apparent, you know, the closest I'm ever going to get to being a parent is, I think, is taking care of my mom for a few years while she was unable to take care of herself. And it also brought my relationship with her to a very paradoxically, a very good close. Because we got so close and also because there was this cognitive opening where she wouldn't recognize me a lot of the time. And so we were like strangers. So there was a different quality to our interactions. There was like a freshness or kind of openness at times, which was really amazing. Wow. That's a nice way to see it. Yeah. Yeah. I drew a lot of things. of strength from that, it was just a freedom. And by the end, I mean, it's weird taking care of somebody who was going to die as opposed to growing up to be, you know, an adult does kind of go to school and have a whole life. It's weird. It's, there's a, there's a strangeness to that. But in a way, I, I feel like I grew it up like I became, I finally became an adult. But I don't know what I'm going to do in the long term, because it's, I'm still adjusting just to being like a middle-aged person and what that means. Like I'm not even sure, like I think I'm starting to realize what that means now. What does that mean to you? What does it mean to me? It means the time is running out like really, like I'm just really starting to get a sense of like you're on the downslope, like where things pick up speed, as opposed to, oh God, life is so hard, because you're going up, but you're still on the upslope. Now it's like, no, things are getting work, things are, my body is, is, is, is, there's a lot of body issues in the last couple of years. But then, and the bigger picture is like, where do I want to live? Who do I want to be near? What do I want to do? These questions are all floating up in the air because I've walked away from any kind of, you know, structure. I don't have a family. I don't have, I keep kind of back to that. I don't have like my, my oldest and dearest friends are scattered all over the place. I'm not going to live with me, you know? You guys aren't going to be, you know, coming up to street with meatballs, sandwiches when I'm, how would my, how would my, maybe, you know, he'll be demented first. I don't know. I don't know. God forbid. So it's like, and it's not like, oh, I'm setting up a nice little hospice for myself so that I, you know, I have my people to take care of. Like, I don't, I don't care what happens. Throw me off a cliff, fill me with some yogurt. No, I mean, you call Jackie. You want all the regular things. It's, it's just you're taking a, a rather unconventional route to get to those things. Yeah. I think it has to do with, with knowing what you're going to do, right? So like what, if you're not sure that there's a container for, for you in, in, in life, like whether there's a job or it's a family or like a very particular career track, which is very involving, which has steps, which you can follow. Like, you're kind of free-floating. You're, you're, you're in free-fall. And now it's like kindergarten all over again. Like, okay, what next? What's next? And like, where's my money? Like, what the fuck am I doing? What am I doing here? Like, not knowing, really not knowing. But is, is that exciting? Also, I don't see. Yeah, it is. It's very exciting. That's good. Yeah. Tony, I'm so sorry. I don't have to run off. I'm, I'm looking at the time I could talk to you all night, but I'm supposed to take Auggie, he's got a basketball game. Give my love to Auggie and Emily and, and tell them I say hi. I will, we'll talk soon. I will. I will, man. Good to see you. Okay. You be well. Okay, man. Bye for now. Bye-bye. Thanks to everyone who helped put the episode together. And we'll be back once again with another exciting update in two weeks. Also, we're starting a free newsletter. I know what you're thinking, you're thinking finally. Yes, that's right. Not just audio, but now in the form of news and a letter sent directly to your inbox. And who knows? Maybe you'll even hear from a producer or two, Khalilaholt. Yeah, you probably will. We'll let you know when new episodes are coming out and we'll send out some other fun stuff as well, like work puzzles. I'll be- We're not going to send out work puzzles. Well, we don't know yet. We might make crossword puzzles, word jumbles. We want to share everything that we can. And you can sign up for that at patreon.com/heavyweight. Welcome, global here. Through a series of stories, interviews, and archival tape, I confront one of today's most urgent moral dilemmas and examine why the U.S. has never quite understood its own problem and why you can't fix what you refuse to see clearly. Pre-order The American Way of Killing at pushkin.fm/audiobooks or wherever audio books are sold. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.