2026 Update: Julia

Pushkin Hi. Hello. We're back again in the studio. Yes, and in your earbuds. Yep. Who do we have on the docket today? This one, her name's Julia. Okay, this episode is the first one that I ever did with a stranger. Yeah. Like someone that wasn't a friend or a family, and it was a little scary. It was a little intimidating. Julia is a journalist, and I needed to, like, step up. It's a great episode. Partly because Julia kept me on the straight and narrow. Yeah. No, I was going to say it's great not because of us, but because of Julia and, spoiler alert, another woman we talked to. If you stick around, at the end of the episode, I talk again with Julia. And what was really very gratifying to me was how the episode really did happen. And how it's going to have an important impact on her life. All right, well, I'm looking forward to listening to this one again. Yes, let's both sit down. I'm already seated. And silence. All right. Do you have any snacks? No, I can't eat a snack silently. It was a trick question. Oh, did I pass? Yes, you did. Thank God. All right, and here we go. Oh, but first, we're going to pay those bills. Going to pay my automobile. With a word from our sponsor. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. This is Jacob Goldstein from Business History. When the internet arrived, most people used it to look things up. Others saw what it could really do. The same is true with ChatGPT. ChatGPT work goes beyond answering questions. Give it a goal, plus things like notes, files, feedback, data, or project plans, and it can help create a brief analysis, deck outline, tracker, or workflow. You stay in control, reviewing the work, and choosing the final result. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting Work Mode, available on Plus and Pro plans. If you love music and great artist interviews, check out Before the Moment, hosted by Niall Rogers. This new series follows Niall as he travels across the world, across the country, talking with some of today's most fascinating artists about the moments that shaped their lives and careers. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Niall explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the point where everything changed, and this podcast tells the stories that came before it. Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is brought to you by Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab, hosted by the amazing Katie Milkman, behavioral scientist and author of the best-selling book, How to Change. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind our decisions. Each episode shares the latest research in behavioral science and dives into themes like the power of self-control, shaping your mindset for success, navigating new beginnings, and why starting over is so important. Katie talks to authors, athletes, Nobel laureates, and everyday people about why we make irrational choices and how to make better choices to help avoid costly mistakes. You'll learn about tools and strategies to help improve your decision-making and a ton of other fantastic things about the mind. Listen and subscribe at schwab.com slash podcast or find it wherever you listen to your shows. Hello? Happy birthday, birthday girl. Are you going out for dinner tonight with Rick or anything? What? It's not my birthday for another seven months. Hey, hang on a second. Hang on. I'm hanging. I'm hanging. I'm in traffic, so it's perfect for you. Well, according to my calendar alert, it is your birthday. It's not my birthday. Are you sure? On, on, on. Could you stop? You're 100% sure? Because I don't know how many times I'm going to say it's not my birthday and how many times you're going to repeat that it is my birthday. This year you didn't actually. Actually, this year you forgot to call me on my birthday. Not even an email. Nothing. Okay. Okay, what about that time you got me an ice cream cake for my birthday, knowing I'm lactose sensitive? Do you remember? The man at the roller rink kept on knocking on the bathroom door. Oh, that's good. Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? From Gimlet Media, I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is Heavyweight. Today's episode, Julia. Julia is a journalist, and she's endlessly curious about the world around her. On assignment for the New York Times, she investigated the benefits of bacteria, and as a part of her research, she didn't bathe for a month. She's done political stories, too, where she's kept after a source or a story for years. Which is what makes her reluctance to seek out the answer to a question that's been dogging her for over two decades all the more curious. I think the story begins on a Monday. I'm pretty sure it's a Monday. And I was 14 years old. This is Julia. And the question she can't stop thinking about revolves around a moment from her own life. It all began 21 years ago, in the eighth grade, at one of the fanciest all-girl schools in Montreal. I remember wearing my itchy green kilt. You have to wear a uniform there. Yes. Okay. It's sort of a puke green uniform with a button-down white shirt. And on Mondays, we had to wear ties. We also had bloomers. I don't think I ever understood what bloomers were. It was just sort of like a balloon with holes in the bottom. And were they ruffled? No. Cursed with a lifelong inability to distinguish between bloomers, culottes, pantalettes, pantaloons, drawers, and even knickerbockers, I was glad for the opportunity to finally sort it all out. But that's not why we're here. So after about 15 minutes of inquiry, I was ready to move on. Okay, sorry. Yes, go on. As I left morning assembly on Monday and walked into homeroom, I looked for my desk. And I stopped and looked around, and it was missing. My desk was gone. And that was where it started. The desk had been hidden by her classmates, and that was just the beginning. Without warning, the girl she'd been friends with since third grade completely froze her out, and Julia had no clue why. To top it off, her best friend was the ringleader. The girl who used to be my best friend, I guess we can give her a name. Let's call her Jane. It was just strange knowing that she, you and I, had hung out at my house, and all of the secrets we'd exchanged, and all of the fun we'd had, and then, you know, seeing how she was being now. It just, it was a bit surreal, but, yeah. Then what started happening was every time she walked into the classroom, Julia noticed that the girls would drop what they were doing and study her. If she so much as scratched, scratched her nose or sniffled, they'd furiously take notes. It seemed like everyone was collaborating on some big project that she knew nothing about. The notes were collected by Jane, who buried them in her desk. The girls kept at it, day after day, until finally, Julia reached her breaking point. She gathered up her courage and, like the good reporters she'd eventually become, decided to investigate. I eventually snuck into homeroom, one day, during recess, it was empty, and I searched Jane's desk. And there at the bottom, I found a nicely bound document with a cover page. And I picked it up and read it, and it said, 100 Reasons Why We Hate Julia. In my memory, this document I'm holding is 100 pages long, but I'm sure it was only 10. And I opened it, and inside, I read about myself. Everything was something about me that they hated. I hate the way she walks. I hate the sound of her voice. I hate her face. I hate her face. Julia started skipping school. Eventually, she told her parents what was going on, and they contacted the administration. But the bullying continued. Ultimately, her parents decided that the only solution was to send her to a new school. But Julia still had a few weeks left at the old one. I became a double agent. I pretended that I was coming back the following year. And I didn't tell anyone I was changing schools because I had no friends left to tell. The school year ended, and her new life began. But because her new school was so close to the old one, Julia lived in constant fear that her old life would find her. Every day, she'd map her route to and from school, carefully avoiding the streets her old friends lived on, the coffee shops they hung out at. And for the most part, it worked. For those first few weeks at her new school, she managed to hide in plain sight. She was starting to feel like things would be okay. But then, one day after school, Julia was upstairs in the den doing homework, and the doorbell rang. She went to her parents' bedroom window and looked down at the doorstep and saw standing there her former best friend Jane, along with a few of her old classmates. I hit the ground as if someone was shelling the second floor windows. I was in a state of total panic, and I saw them in my mind's eye there. I saw them on the front steps, waiting for someone to answer the door. And I was just on the ground, trying to breathe, and they rang the doorbell again. And I waited. Eventually, they left. And this is the moment that Julia has fixated on for over 20 years. Why had the girl shown up at her door? And what did they want? Maybe they'd shown up to bully her. But maybe they'd had a change of heart, realized how mean they'd been, and were there to apologize. Whatever the case, Julia was too scared to open the door and find out. And that decision, to not go downstairs and face the girls who tormented her, still haunts Julia. Even listening to her talk about it all these years later, it still feels raw. I'm 35 now, and that day, has become one of my only regrets. Because the memory of my weakness sometimes supersedes all of the strong things I've done since then. And it makes me feel weak. Even though you were just a child? I was 14. I think it's the memory of that fear that's still somewhere. In my physiology, it makes me fearful when I think of it. I just wish I'd gone down there. I wish I'd had the guts. What do you think has stopped you up until now from just posing the question? You know, like just finding the girls and just asking them why they were there that day? I'm afraid to find out what I did to bring. to bring on the bullying. Because it's very possible that I was bad. I think deep down, I don't really know what was wrong. I don't know what was wrong with me, and I don't want to know what was wrong with me. I mean, it feels like you're being really hard on yourself. Or being hard on this little kid, basically. You know? Like, do you look at photographs of yourself? Do you look at photographs of yourself at that age? Uh, no. I try not to. Well, I think you'd be surprised by, like. I mean, I have memories of being that age where I thought, like, I was at weddings, and I thought I was, like, flirting with adult women and stuff like that. And I look at pictures of myself, and I look like a Cabbage Patch doll. You know? I think I probably looked like the Tin Man because I had a full set of braces. And then, after I graduated from my braces, I immediately went to headgear, neckgear, combo. I don't know if you've ever had that, but. I've only seen them on TV sitcoms. So, combine that with, um, my glasses. It was a sad state of affairs. As soon as she graduated high school, Julia left Montreal. For good. Depending on how, you know, the outcome of that conversation, I might have chosen not to leave Montreal. When I'm in Montreal, once a year, I avoid the neighborhood I grew up in, where all of this, went down, for the most part. And. those girls are long gone. I mean, we're all grown-ass women now, with careers and jobs and kids. And. here I am, avoiding friends of friends on Facebook because I don't want any of those girls to know what's going on with my life. Do you feel like, had you answered the door and they had apologized to you, that that would have changed your life in some way? That it would have changed your relationship with your parents? With your past, and the city, and these friends? Um. I think it might have, but I'll never know what they wanted to say to me because I didn't answer the door. It's scary to return to the moment you've spent your whole life running from. So when I gently suggest that she try to find out why they were at the door that day, Julia suggests that maybe the past should just stay in the past. You know, we move on with our lives. We. you know, we move on. And, um. it's another thing to. open up, you know, that Pandora's box again. Even the language that you're using about fear of opening up that Pandora's box, it is so similar to the language that you used in describing, like, fear of opening that door. So what you're saying is, I should really just finish the job? I think so. ♪ ♪ After the break, opening Pandora's box. ♪ ♪ This is Jacob Goldstein from Business History. Imagine Henry Ford trying to create the assembly line. He had factory plans, production schedules, supply information, research, and ideas coming from all directions. His team spent years studying how to make the process work. Now, imagine having ChatGPT work. ChatGPT work can help with big projects that have lots of steps. 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From hit makers like Miguel, to rising stars like Alex Warren, Nile explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every artist can point to that turning point, that moment before the breakthrough, before the success, before everything changed. Through candid conversations and personal stories, you'll hear what happened before the moment that made them who they are today. When we were kids, summer meant freedom. No homework. No teachers. No school. And as adults, summer still means freedom, thanks to Mint Mobile's Summer Sale. Right now, all of Mint's plans are $15 per month, even unlimited. So free yourself from big wireless and their gimmicks and gotchas, and switch to Mint for high-speed data and coverage on the T-Mobile 5G network. Cleola, what's a hurdle for you with wireless? So expensive. It's expensive. It's a little confusing with all the various plans. It doesn't always work. It's a little more of a pain in the ass. There's no catch. Upfront payment of $45 for 3 months, $90 for 6 months, or $180 for 12 months. Plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only. Greater than 50 gigs. May slow when network is busy. Includes up to 20 gigs hotspot. Capable device required. Availability, speed, and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com. In spite of her initial trepidation, once Julia decided to find out why the girls came to her door that day, she was all in. Watching her take it on was impressive. Julia went back to Montreal and reached out to her former best friend, Jane, who agreed to meet with her, but said she didn't remember anything. And so, for the first time since 8th grade, Julia returned to her former school to go through the yearbook and find the names of her old classmates. And then, she started searching. I reached out to probably 12 girls from my group. And, at my worst moments, I imagined that none of them were going to write back, and it was sort of going to feel like, you know, I was on the outside of the group again, you know. And that the social dynamics I remembered from the 8th grade were still in play and all that. But then the responses started to trickle in. Hello? Hello? Hello? Yes. This is Julia. Julia logged hours and hours of interviews. School. And rang my doorbell. I thought you might have been one of them. I don't think so. Do you remember anything about that? Was I there? No. Oh, boy. I don't remember much about high school, to be honest. I remember one time you were hiding in a bathroom stall. But just like Jane, not a single person said they could remember showing up at her door that day. Well, I honestly don't remember doing that. I don't. I don't. I don't. I'm sorry. I don't. I don't remember anything. I just don't remember it. I promise you I have no. I don't remember a collection of this. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But what each of them did remember was their own pain. There'd been a lot of bullying that year, and no one felt safe. Julia heard about one girl who'd found her desk filled with meticulously cut-out images from porn magazines. Another girl remembered someone spreading rumors that she had AIDS. I hated that place, said one. It's all a big fog of chaos, said another. A dark cloud over the class. You never knew who you could trust. We were awful, awful little girls. The more Julia heard about it, it started to sound like a Stephen King novel, and not one of those cutesy ones about clowns or talking cars. In almost every conversation, one name kept coming up as the person who had it the worst. Even Julia acknowledged it. The name was Sarah Taba. Sarah had the misfortune of being the only 8th grader who was slightly overweight. And as such, she was always kept at a distance. In high school, I was also someone who existed on the margins. So I understand how oftentimes kids like me, kids like Sarah Taba, become the eyes and ears of the school. Fidgety, uncomfortable witnesses, forced to watch from the wings. I'm reminded of this all the time with the friends I went to high school with, who were more popular than me. Remember the time Robert Scioli was a kid? Remember the time Robert Scioli wore a three-piece suit to school, I ask? The time Madame Robert slammed the classroom door so hard the clock fell off the wall? The day Sharon Wiener got suspended for leaving the schoolyard during recess? Of course they don't. They were living their lives. But I was on the sidelines, taking it all in, remembering. Hello? Hi, Sarah. Hi. It's been a really long time. Yeah, it has. Yes, it has. Having all these conversations made Julia think about Sarah and what she might remember. But when she asked her if she had any recollection about the day those girls showed up at her door, Sarah couldn't remember anything. The first thing I thought of when you said a group of girls riding the doorbell, I immediately thought it would be a bad experience. It wasn't people coming looking for you to be like, we miss you, where are you? It was a bad year at that school. Either you were being bullied and picked on, or you had to turn around and become the bully. Yeah, maybe there was something toxic. Something dark. I think normal bullying, if there's such a thing as normal bullying, you can identify the perpetrator and the victim. But it was just so pervasive. Yeah. Do you remember the day that you realized that I was gone? I don't, actually, no. I remember feeling like you were just sad all the time. I remember you being sad, too. Yeah. One thing I remember, people would call you Tubby Taba. Doesn't surprise me. Yeah. I remember a lot of stuff like that. Yeah. I can't help but think that our grade's behavior had impacts on the staff. What do you mean? Well, actually, I'm assuming you knew this, but maybe you didn't, but Miss McDonald killed herself the following year. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Miss McDonald was Julia's favorite teacher, and Sarah's, too. Miss McDonald had gone to the school as a student and later returned to teach biology. She was the fun teacher who wore frog earrings. You think that there was something to do with what was happening in the school that caused her to commit suicide? I think it had a role in her depression. She left right in the end of our grade eight year. I think she was a little bit more of a child. situation I am now. I'm actually talking to you from outside of a clinic for treating eating disorders so i'm really sorry sarah it's not your fault that's the sort of sad reality of all of this it's like um please picture you know my nerdy looking 14 year old self giving you a big hug oh thanks i actually do have to let you go because we have to have a lunch now um but it was nice speaking to you and do keep in touch the conversation had left julia feeling devastated the scale of her own pain had been altered in the face of sarah's later that night i couldn't stop thinking about julia and sarah's conversation and as i turned it around in my head a theory began to form a theory began to form a theory began to form a theory began to form a theory began to form later that night i couldn't stop thinking about julia and sarah's conversation and as i turned it around in my head a miss mcdonald had died around the start of the school year wasn't it possible that those girls had shown up at julia's door to let her know maybe they'd been worried about the way julia had just disappeared from their school and feared the worst wasn't it possible the girls had meant good that day that they came to the door and if so wouldn't knowing that change the way julia felt about the past 20 years and maybe even change the way she saw herself so i took this last task upon myself hey is this christine hey jennifer this is i phoned up all the people julia had already spoken with and i ran my theory by them to be honest i would love to believe that's what their intentions were i can't be sure about anything but i can't i can't say yeah sure that's it because i don't have a memory of it okay well thank you bye all right you have a great night okay bye-bye bye okay okay okay take it easy bye-bye there was only one thing left for me to do i i just feel like i'm at a loss like this whole thing started off as me encouraging you to to get out of here and to get out of here and to get out of here i just wanted to give it a try and that it might be helpful in some way and i don't feel like i brought you any closer to knowing what happened at the door that day and i i just if there's one of us who's disappointed it certainly isn't me i don't know whether i was emotionally equipped to open the door as a 14 year old but to me the important part is is that i opened the door now i couldn't have um i couldn't have confronted that if i hadn't literally done what we decided we were going to do if i hadn't had these phone calls and asked these hard questions um and i've i've forgiven that little girl for being so frightened i was so ashamed i was so regretful and i don't blame myself for being afraid then i had every right to be it wasn't rational and so i think the biggest challenge for me in all of this was to allow myself to slip back into that 14 year old girl's skin and say look you know i get it it's okay it's okay you know it's okay i'm proud of who i was then i'm it's been a long time since i could say that and and you feel like that's happened like that that's happened in this process yeah i do well that makes me feel better well i'm happy to make you feel better jonathan yeah i do well that makes me feel better you know i'm happy to make you feel better yeah i do well that makes me feel better well i'm happy to make you feel better yeah i do well that makes me feel better yeah i do well i'm happy to make you feel better yeah i do well i'm happy to make you feel better yeah i do well i'm happy to make you feel better cool life there and have grown roots. And I'm envious of you, you know, hearing that you're moving back like that. I think that's really cool. You know, we're not talking about spending winters there. Let's just be clear. Well, sincerely, I mean, if I am there for more than a couple of days, you'll hear from me. Sincerely, that would be a joy. Thanks to everyone who originally put this episode together. We'll be back in one week's time. That's right. One puny little week with something very special, a very special treat, if you will. Can I say, Kalila, will you allow me? Yeah, you can. This is going to be unbelievable. People are going to think that we're doing some kind of bit right now. But you and I, are going to be featured on a children's podcast. We're going to be debating. We're going to try to take each other to the mat, knock each other out. And also, boy, we have a lot to talk about. As well, we have our newsletter. What's your favorite thing about our newsletter? I like to know what's on everyone's mind. Stuff comes up in the newsletter, things we've enjoyed or been thinking about that we're not necessarily even talking about one-on-one. No, no. You find out things that are not necessarily what you're talking about. You find out things that are not things about me. I find out things about you and Stevie. Sometimes I'm shocked. You know what my favorite thing about the newsletter is? That it's on the internet. I don't have to get paper cuts opening up an envelope that comes to my door. People have to know my business. So I ask you, one and all, to please subscribe to that newsletter, which I don't know if I mentioned, is completely free. And you can find it at patreon.com slash heavyweight. This new series follows Niall as he travels across the country talking with some of today's most fascinating artists about the moments that shaped their lives and careers. Because, every musician remembers the point where everything changed. And this podcast tells the stories that came before it. Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. One last thing before you go. You know that feeling when feedback, notes, and data are coming in from every direction? ChatGPT work can make sense of it all, turning scattered inputs into ready-to-review work. With your permission, work in ChatGPT can gather contact from apps and files, summarize incoming messages, rebuild decks, and help finalize high-quality documents for your team or clients. Stay in control as you move from a goal to polished work faster with ChatGPT work. Download the ChatGPT desktop app today and take on your most ambitious work. For I don't know how long, maybe 12, 13 years, I've worn a whoop band on my wrist. I started doing it because I met the founder of whoop at a conference. He heard that I was a It's perfect for athletes. And he was right. I've worn one ever since. 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