2026 Update: Elyse

(upbeat music) Pushkin. - Hi, Jonathan. - Hi, come on in. You should make yourself at home in the studio because it is like a set. You've been spending so much time in here. - Yeah, I actually sometimes just sleep in here. It's just easier than having to go home. - I don't know if you should be telling me that. This might be a conversation with HR. Yeah, what are we listening to today? - Speaking of the studio, today we're gonna revisit an episode that started with us sitting around in the studio. It's called Elise. - Yeah, of course, I love this episode. - It's a really good one that came to us as you'll hear in a unconventional way. - Yeah, we were trying something new. We were trying to do a call and show, but in our case that basically failed. But it succeeded because we wouldn't have had this story without it. And we have a check-in with Elise at the end about what's happened since. And truly some of the wildest updates, I would say of any of these update conversations. - Yeah, I know. You have a tendency to skew towards clickbait, but in this case, it's true. It's very eventful. - Yeah, what else is there to say? - To quote Jay-Z, what more can I say? Hello? - Yeah, okay. - I thought you left the studio. (laughing) Yeah, let's lean back. - Let the story unfold. - And let this story take us away. Oh, but before any of that, a word from our sponsors. - This is an I Heart Podcast, guaranteed human. - Welcome, global here. My new book, The American Way of Killing investigates America's gun violence crisis. Why is the richest country in the world plagued by such lethal violence? Through a series of stories, interviews, and archival tape. I confront one of today's most urgent moral dilemmas, and examine why the US has never quite understood its own problem and why you can't fix what you refuse to see clearly. Get the American Way of Killing at pushkin.fm/audiobooks or at Audible, Spotify or wherever audio books are sold. (phone ringing) - Hello? - Hey, how is it that a seal keeps balls on their nose? - No, go now. - No, no, I have something serious. (sighs) - It's about to grow through the house, and I've got to paint the door, so. - You're painting the door to your house? - Yeah, but it paints the door red. It's gonna be very nice. - But you know what a red door symbolizes, right? - No. - Le Paul Truj, is a bordello. - You're kidding, right? - That's how sailors would know they would have them down by the view of Paul, and they would be able to know where they could make whoopee for money. (laughs) - Who's that? - That's my neighbor. - Could you ask him about the red door? - I can't be black, I can't be black. (laughs) (laughs) (upbeat music) - From Gimlett Media, I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is Heavyweight. Today's episode, Elise. (upbeat music) - So now what happens there is gonna call? - We'll see. - Oh boy, get ready for-- - A while back, my producers and I decided to try a phone in episode. Larry King, Rush Limbaugh, and other Goldstein-esque personalities had found success with them. So why I wondered, from the depths of my ignorance, couldn't I? (whistling) And so, full of hubris and hope, we open the phone lines and invite the whole world to call in with a small moment from their past, something to revisit and resolve, all during the course of a five-minute phone call. - This is why I got into this business, the, you know, the feeling of live radio. - As I'm to learn, the thing about a phone in show is that you need people to phone in. And nobody is. - How's everyone's day? - But just as I'm starting to wonder, if Gimlet Media has forgotten to pay its telephone bill again. - Oh, here we go. - Oh, we have a company. - No, we have a company. - We're answering. - All right, hello, this is Jonathan speaking. - Hi, Jonathan, how's it going? - It's going okay, is this, what's your name? - Elise, this is like, you very surprised I got through. This is so exciting. I guess you really lucked out. - Elise is a long time listener, first time caller from Washington, DC. And as it turns out, her call proves not only the first of the day, but also the last. And this is not just because we don't receive any other calls, it's because I'm completely drawn in by the story Elise tells me, about herself and her dad. What's his name? - Billy. - Billy? - Yeah. - So I guess I basically am estranged from my father. - When Elise was a kid, Billy was the fun parent. The one who always had hours to play with her. The guy who, in spite of being something of a macho man, gave himself over to playing beauty salon, even allowing Elise to paint his toenails. Before the estrangement, Billy and Elise were really close, which is why not having any relationship now hurts the way it does. - She was my dad. Like, our idea of a family vacation was to show up in a country with no plan and rent a car and just drive around, and it was amazing. Like, that's what life with dad was like. It was like, every day it was an adventure. (upbeat music) - Even the way Billy met Elise's mom was like something out of a movie, the first act of a film noir. Billy was an Englishman driving through Chattanooga on a tourist visa when he got into a terrible car accident, and the physical therapist assigned to him was Elise's mom. Billy was still in a wheelchair when he talked her into sneaking a mat of the hospital for their first date. Pretty soon after, they got married and had Elise. Billy never went back to England. Instead, he stayed with his family in Chattanooga and became a successful-used car salesman. - I have a lot of things in my upbringing and life would tend to be very grateful for, in addition to all the craziness. - In reference to her dad, Elise brings up craziness a lot. Like the crazy way Billy ruined her credit by opening a business in her name, or the crazy time he drove home, a brand new car, only to have cops come looking for it with their guns drawn, or the crazy way he destroyed his 24-year marriage with a series of affairs. There's one Christmas where he bailed on the family, only to spend the holiday with another woman. And for all of these things, no matter how jarring or painful, Elise has found it in herself to forgive her father. But there's one thing she hasn't been able to forgive. - About five years ago, he moved out of the country without telling us. - Us is Elise and her mom. Elise's parents had been married her whole life, but had recently separated around the time of his disappearance. Her last good memory of her dad is watching him wave from the crowd as she crossed the stage at her college graduation. Days later, he disappeared. And disappeared is the word for it. Elise says that when she went over to his house, she found food rotting in the refrigerator and all the furniture still there. For a week, Elise had no idea what had happened to her father. And then, she received an email. It simply said he'd begun for a little while and that email was the best way to stay in touch. There was no further explanation. The next time she heard from him was on her birthday, six months later, a Christmas note. And that's more or less been the pattern for the last five years. - On holiday is my birthday and just like that. Because emails are very short, like three sentences or less, sort of, capy whatever holiday it is. I hope you're well. Love dad. - At first, Elise tried responding. She'd express some of her pain and anger in hopes of provoking a more substantial dialogue, but Billy would refuse to engage. So after an email pressing her father for answers, a few months would pass with no response. And then an email would land in Elise's inbox, wishing her a happy whatever holiday it is and hoping she's well, love dad. As though nothing was ever expressed and nothing was ever asked of him. Eventually, Elise stopped responding to his emails entirely. - We don't have a mailing address for him. I don't know if it's. on the bar like you'll need connection I have to him. It's a concussive address. Do you do you know where he's living? He's in the Philippines. That's all I know. My mom has a pinpointed like a region but like there was ever like he never told me where he was going or why he never he never explained why he left. And this is what Elise wants an explanation for his departure an emotional honest conversation where she can ask him why and what happened because in the five years since she last saw him a lot has happened. He started a new family he also have like a wife and a kid and then he actually named his new daughter my name Elise oh my god I just find it so insulting it's just such a transparent replacement like I move to a country and like Nate a new you so when people search for Elise on Facebook the first result it comes up is new Elise and the page Billy made for her which means old Elise is forced to constantly explain that this is her dad's new daughter from his new family who also just so happens to have her name like you just want me to like love him and be happy with him again but the elephant in the room is that he is living mysteriously somewhere for half a decade and we've never discussed it. Elise feels like she and Billy are living in two different realities she and the one where her father abandoned her and he in the one where he did nothing wrong she wants her dad to validate what she's seen and felt to understand otherwise how can they move forward. Are you wanting to have a relationship with him? Part of me is because he's also he's like diabetic and like he's just kind of old and sick and might die and I might never know. He's E65 and possibly working a very physically taxing job she was looking on continuous steps way first moved over and I've been passively choosing the route of not having a relationship but the fear and the guilt gets worse with time. And what would what would pursuing a relationship look like? That's what I'm trying to figure out. It's like yeah I mean he's my dad and I feel like he's trying to maintain a relationship with me and I just don't know how to work past it. I know I can sometimes come across as something of a meddler but I only decide to get involved in the business of upturning people's entire lives after hours sometimes even days of careful consideration. But then I've never hosted a call in show before and so a journalized by the single flashing light on my switchboard and the imperial perch of my slightly elevated swivel chair I dive in. Would you want me to call him up? And I say this by the way like with the the idea that this could be a terrible terrible idea. I'm not championing this idea. This could be a stupid idea. It's better than any of the ideas that I've had for the past five years so yeah I think I think it would be helpful. My idea is to serve as Elise's emotional advanced scout to call up her dad and see if he might be ready after all this time to talk to Elise and offer some answers. Given what Elise has told me about her dad I can't say I'm optimistic about that but then again I can't say I'm optimistic about anything. No one's gonna call anyway so. No this was good call in show. Malcolm Gladwell here my new book The American Way of Killing investigates America's gun violence crisis. Through a series of stories interviews and archival tape I confront one of today's most urgent moral dilemmas and examine why the US has never quite understood its own problem and why you can't fix what you refuse to see clearly. Get the American Way of Killing at pushkin.fm/audiobooks or at audible Spotify or wherever audiobooks are sold and so it comes to pass that I email Billy. As I wait as a response I imagine various scenarios. Maybe Billy will treat me like a student loan officer sorry sir you've got the wrong Billy he might say. Or perhaps he'll try to convince me I have the story all wrong that Elise and her mom are the real villains. After a week and a half I finally hear back from Billy and his actual response is more surprising than any I might have imagined. It's just a simple note apologizing for the delay. Billy explains it's the rainy season in the Philippines and it's been messing with his internet but he says he really wants to talk to me. To be honest with you he writes "You were the only hope I have of communicating with Elise." Oh hi this is Jonathan Goldstein speaking. Hey Jonathan it's a terrible evening here again thunder and lightning as I told you rainy season so but anyway so Elise contacted you. Although Elise's last memory of her dad was at her graduation ceremony Billy has a different final memory and as he describes it it was one of the most painful moments of his life. He was in the midst of the separation from Elise's mom. I was walking out of the garage carrying a box and he continued straight into the house from the driveway and Elise was in the dining room. Well once she saw me she darted back into the living room and kind of hit herself so I couldn't see her but I know for a fact that she saw me because we made our content. I get that this had to have been painful for Billy but as Elise is interlocutor I tell him this isn't about his pain it's about his daughter's pain in her anger and if they're to speak he should be prepared for that. I can't imagine that something Billy wants to hear and I'm worried how he'll react. As far as her feeling anger on her mother's behalf. That I can assure you it's completely understandable. Once again Billy has managed to surprise me. I basically couldn't have bluntly shittered over that woman on many occasions. He was one particular Sunday morning that she was out cooking breakfast and the phone rings and there's a woman on the home and the woman says hey this is Angela can I speak to Billy and my wife said well who are you and she just opened me. She said well I was girlfriend. Imagine a wife getting a phone conversation like that on a Sunday morning in the middle of breakfast saying I'm your husband's girlfriend. Elise wrote this that with you I can assure you that there's a finger or this she says is accurate and if it's not a really ugly picture she's left something like trust me it's a really ugly picture but there's absolutely nothing that I won't be completely honest and open about. The only thing that I have absolutely no problem discussing anything with you. After hearing everything Elise had to say about Billy's unwillingness to own up his refusal to engage I was expecting the worst but Billy seems genuinely remorseful apologetic and even eager to hear his daughter out. He tells me he kept his distance out of fear that Elise didn't want to hear from him at all but he thinks about her all the time. I don't know if it's because I'm getting older I don't know if it's because I feel like I've lost my daughter I don't know what it is but I was really excited when I found out that she's had reached out to you to make contact with me because to me that means she wants to get a relationship. and that is desperately what I want. Investigates America's gun violence crisis. I confront one of today's most urgent moral dilemmas and examine why the U.S. has never quite understood its own problem and why you can't fix what you refuse to see clearly. Get the American way of killing at pushkin.fm/audiobooks or it audible, Spotify, or wherever audiobooks are sold. Elise, hi, how are you? Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you too. I've invited Elise to my office in Brooklyn so that we can call her father together. It will be the first time in five years that Elise hears Billy's voice. How are you feeling? Very nervous. You are? Do you want some coffee? Nothing calms the kishkas better than a nice cup of coffee. Elise declines and we settle in for some small talk while I set up the call. As we chat, I'm struck by Elise's cultural sensitivity. Wasn't it Canada Day recently? In what? Happy Canada Day. Thank you. I fumble around incapable of an appropriately reciprocal well-wish. Hmm, we're three days after Canada Day, so that makes it the third, maybe the fourth of July? Nah, I got nothing. I tell Elise about my conversation with Billy, how remorseful and open to talking he seemed. She's still worried, but says she wasn't even expecting things to progress this far. I'm very surprised she spoke to you. I'm very surprised she was candid with you. So that's a positive? Right. And that's a change. Yeah. So do you want to show me, try this? Sure. Make the call? Yeah. So it's Monday, 6 in the evening, so it is 6 a.m. Oof. In the Philippines. It's really? Yeah. Well, let's try him. Okay. Hello. Hello, is this Bill? Yes. Hi, Bill. This is Jonathan Goldstein speaking. Hi, buddy. What's going on? Well, I'm here with Elise. Hey, Dad. Hi. Hi, honey. How are you? I'm good. How are you? Everything is good to send. That's good. I'm glad that you were approached Jonathan. Any communication that we can get. I think this is really good. Yeah. I'm sorry. It took such a long time. I just. Okay, honey. I. I understand you have things to work through and problems and. Less things went wrong towards the end and left here 100 percent by 4. But if you think back, we share it a lot of great times. But Elise isn't here to talk about the great times. She's here to talk about the bad times. In fact, she's written up some notes to make sure she doesn't leave any of her feelings or questions unsaid. The notes are in her hand, but she isn't looking at them. Instead, she speaks from the heart. Okay. I have thought about emailing you back. I've just been so angry that I didn't think it would be productive. And like I have just wanted to like yell at you or cry or cuss you out for leaving and not explaining anything. But I don't feel that like intense anger anymore. And I am sad that we don't have a relationship like we used to. I feel like every time I let you back in and I forgive you for whatever has happened before you end up just breaking my heart again. And I do find it very insulting that you gave another child my name, my verse and last name. And I don't know what relationship we're going to have in the future, I just had to sort of forget some of this out for any of that to be possible. Billy is silent for a while. When he finally does respond, he skips right over the big question about his leaving without explanation and focuses on the second question instead. The question of Elise's name. Well, I can tell you that it was her mother who loves the name Elise. I should have confessed it instead, no, you know, literally think this one, but I didn't always to be honest with you and I should have done the Filipino culture and the Filipino thinking is decent. I'll give you another example. All of your favorite dogs is Charlie, okay. I've never owned a German shepherd over here, but we've had a dog. But because of the stories that I tell, what would they call the dog, Charlie. By the look on her face, Elise doesn't seem reassured by the fact that like her, Charlie, the beloved German shepherd from her childhood had also been replaced. Although I haven't been to the Philippines, it feels as though Billy is throwing an entire country under the bus to save his own hide. In the silence, I try to bring things back to what I think is Billy's strongest suit. He's seemingly renewed capacity for repentance. I want the least to hear what I heard in Billy during our first conversation, so I try to steer things in that direction. Bill, you mentioned feeling regret. What would you do differently if you had a chance to do things over? I don't think that the final outcome would change much to be honest with you, but I should have called for a family meeting. And I should have gone over it in detail with times and dates and plans. A family meeting about leaving your family was not the do-over I was expecting. After having heard the level of Old Testament shamey'd expressed in our first phone call, I'm surprised that Billy's now talking in the language of meetings and launch dates. Elise stares down at the floor. She looks at me. Billy's not giving her what she needs, so she puts it to him as directly as she can. Like you have to understand that you just disappeared and I had no context. Like I want to know what you were thinking when you left and like why you left? So like what happened? Well, there are lots of things that I would like to explain to you that you are going by leaving. Is that I'm here? I'm listening. If there's anything you want to say. Well, they were several, several things that happened Elise. It's a long story that I would like to explain to you step by step. Got kind of a run into schedule today. Is there any like brief overview? Yeah, honey. I can answer your questions or have an explanation and then for what happened and I would be more than happy to explain it to you in detail. But then nothing. The conversation goes round. and round. Billy reassures Elise that he has explanations, explanations of every length and level of detail. It's just that he never actually shares any. I'll be more than happy to do that. Every question that you may have. Is there anything you've wanted to say to me? They won't do a question that you'll ask me that I won't answer. Like right now you're just telling me that you're going to tell me like do you have anything to do out there? Billy likes to talk about talking about hard things, but not actually talking about them. Still, Elise keeps pushing. I understand that it's very painful for you, but there have been so many times when we've just glossed over insane things that have happened. Crazy things. I understand that there's got to be explanations for things to talk to, and actions to talk to, and things to talk about. And then when all of that is done, then Elise has asked her last question, and I have told her every single thing that I want to talk about. Billy's not making any headway talking about the past, so he turns the conversation to the future. I'm really hoping that before I do actually leave this place, and I get to see you get pushed one more time. I don't want to go, but I see you with them. I really don't. Yeah, I don't, I don't want that either. And with that, Elise's hands fall into her lap. As an interlocutor, there isn't much for me to do. Elise hears what Billy is saying and not saying, and she doesn't need any help to understand. So I do the only thing I can. I sit beside her, commiserating with raised eyebrows and puzzled looks, saying without words, I see the same things you do, and it's not you. For the rest of the call, Elise stays quiet and allows Billy to talk, though it feels as though he's mostly talking to himself. As Billy tries to push away the past while cowering from the future, the present takes hold, the one Billy can't deny. Billy promises that that evening he'll send Elise an email, an email that will explain everything, but it never arrives, not that night or the next, or any night, in the months that follow. Yeah, thanks for talking, Dad, I appreciate it. Once we're off the phone, Elise and I go over what just happened. She tells me she felt steamrolled and I tell her that I felt it too. I wasn't really sure what I wanted to get out of it. I don't think that everyone gets sort of like equally agreeable, compromised ending, but for a long time I felt like the burden of us not having a relationship was on me because he would email and I would never respond and that was kind of the end of it. And I feel like now that I have tried to contact him, like the burden of us not having whatever relationship I think we should have is not as much on me. I feel a lot less guilt now. We'll never be as close as it sounds like he wanted us to be. I don't think that's likely, and maybe it's okay that I don't push for that. I think he creates his own universe, like I lived. I was a permanent resident of like Billy Worlds for a number of years and I was glad to get off the ride. Like you don't get to live in the universe that you create and expect it not to affect other people. And other people have been affected. In recent months Elise has been corresponding with a British man named Martin and Martin was able to help Elise answer the question of why her father left in a way that Billy himself couldn't. Martin believes he's Billy's son, born before Billy left England for Chadenuga. So unlike Elise, Martin grew up without a father because like Elise, one day without warning his father left moved to another country and started another family. And from what Martin is saying, he's not the only one. There's another man living in England he tells her who also believes that Billy is his father. The two of them have been trying to reach Billy for years. In fact, it turns out that Martin and Elise have brushed against each other before a long time ago. When Elise was growing up, she remembers the home phone ringing, usually around the holidays, and a young man with her father's accent on the line, asking to speak to Billy. Back then, Billy said Martin was a distant cousin. In all these years later, Martin still feels like he's being pushed away. He just wants Billy to acknowledge him. In learning about Martin and her other possible half-brother, how her story has repeated itself over and over, Elise has found the answer she needed. The answer Billy himself was never able to give her. It isn't about her or about Martin or anyone else. The reason Billy did what Billy did is because that's what Billy does. Martin and the other possible half-brother are planning to take a DNA test, and they'd like Elise to take one too. If their DNA matches hers, Martin says it's all the proof they'll need, Billy will have to accept them as his own. When I talk to her on the phone about it later on, Elise says she isn't sure a DNA test will give Martin the thing he's looking for, but she does want to help. Knowing how much I wanted to close her, it would definitely be good to be able to provide him some. So the next time she and Martin speak, she'll offer him this. Whatever relationship you have in your head that you want with him is probably not possible. And like I can confirm that you're genetically related, but that doesn't guarantee that he will be a presence in your life in a way that you want, because he is not able to do that for me. In other words, Elise will tell Martin I see the same things you do, and it's not you. A few months after our call with her father, Elise and I check back in. She tells me she still hasn't heard from Billy, but she suspects that around the holidays, like always, she'll get that three sentence email. And when she does, this time, she'll write him back. Happy whatever holiday it is, she'll write, hope you're well, love Elise. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Elise. Hi. How are you? I'm doing well. How are you? Good. Do you have another room? It sounds very roomy. Which is a good quality for a room, normally. But not for recording. Let me on. I'm gonna go. I think sitting on the floor in our closet might be. That's the spirit. It's gonna take me a second to relocate. So just. Totally take your time. This is a very big thing that I'm asking of you. She'll hold on. Don't put her in the crate. Because that's where I'm going to be. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Can you hear me now? Yes. Thank you. Thank you for your indulgence. Who were you explaining to that you were headed for the closet? Um, he actually was thinking about it. It's been like eight years since we first chatted. Yeah. When we first chatted, I had just started dating him. And he's not my husband. Oh, cool. And sorry. One last unrelated question. The crating. Was that a dog you were talking about? Um, yes. Thank God. Okay. How are you? I'm good. I have a number of updates about dad. Oh, yeah. Things have transpired. So there was eventually a younger sibling in the Philippines from a different woman. Wait, sorry. Wait. We're talking about little at least. No. There was another one after that. Oh, wow. Okay. And she was the last woman he took up with romantically was younger than me. Her name is Faith. How did you learn about this development? Have you and your father been in touch? Very little. Like birthdays and Christmas kind of thing. Yeah. Maybe even less frequent than you had been doing beforehand. And then at some point between then and 2024, I can't remember exactly when his lack of legal immigration status in the Philippines did eventually catch up to him. And they put him in prison, like in detention, essentially for a couple of years. For he was in prison for a couple of years. Yes. In the Philippines. Yes. Wow. Does it even make sense? I mean, I don't know anything about Filipino law that being there legally would have been enough to put a person in prison for two years. Do you think maybe there's more to the story? I think it's very possible because I feel like I remember Faith saying to mom that he was getting charged with additional other things that she was so sure he didn't do. And me and my mom were like, it's much more likely that he did them. Wow. So how old a man was he at the time that they were that he was sent to prison? Probably in his 70s at that point or just close to you. Then eventually they did deport him to Guam. He eventually ended up in Thailand. And then in fall of 2024, the US Embassy started reaching out to me because he had been hospitalized in Thailand. This is all of this is going to sound very terrible to say, but you know, when he was in prison and in the hospital, like at least I knew where he was. And then I think presumably his medical stuff continued to devolve and then in early, essentially just over a year ago, he passed away in Thailand. Oh, I'm sorry. Very mixed feelings. I actually have his ashes and I don't know what to do with them right now. And what is the feeling of having them there? Do you feel like I mean, do you have any feelings left? It's I was because I after you all reached out, I went back and listened to the initial podcast reporting. And I remember immediately after because we recorded that it sort of ended with the phone conversation that you facilitated between the two of us. And then within a couple of hours that I was driving back from New York to DC. And I remember feeling so overwhelmed emotionally. I was feeling I think mostly anger at that point because I felt so stone walls. And like I couldn't really break through to him in any meaningful way. And I remember feeling like my heart was racing. I was so angry and sad and I stopped at like a rest stop and called my mom and tried to like work through my feelings because I didn't want to drive in a rage for three more hours. I think I had grieved our relationship so much at that point that with his passing, it was more of a, okay, this is over. Do you think that conversation where we called him up? I mean, do you think ultimately it was helpful? I think it was helpful in showing me that our relationship like in many ways was effectively over. And that that was unlikely to change. I'm sure there are small things that I could have done differently. But I don't think there was any, I don't think I could have behaved in such a way that I got my dad back in any meaningful way. Yeah. The story ends up, you know, with the story of Martin, what became of that did you do the, yeah. I haven't done any DNA testing more from like data privacy concern. Is that the only thing that keeps you from from doing it? I mean, I'm sure there are other unexpected reasons. Yeah, I've clearly never made the effort to do it, which is, I guess, a signal in and of itself. Yeah. So, I mean, just generally, like, top line things are good. You're doing okay. Yeah, I mean, your husband, your dog. They just were great. I'm so glad. The dad updates were all wild, but I'm grateful for my personal life being relatively stable. Thanks, Elise. You may exit the closet now. Excellent. Thank you. It was good to catch up. Thanks to everyone who helped put this episode together. We'll be back in two weeks time with something a little different. You might even say, wildly different. You might say, it's something of a wild card. Oh, also, if you haven't heard, we've started a free newsletter loaded with all kinds of fun word puzzles. Much to my sugar and we are now including word puzzles. Movies that we like, photographs, it's a popory. Would you say it's a popory? I would say it's a popory. Oh, excuse me. It smells as good as a popory. And it looks great sitting on the base of your toilet bowl. You know it's online, right? Is it? Everything's online these days, even toilet bowls. So sign up for our exciting newsletter. You need to give the link. Of course, everything needs a link these days. The link is patreon.com/heavyweight. Welcome, Gladwell here. My new book, The American Way of Killing, investigates America's gun violence crisis. Through a series of stories, interviews and archival tape. I confront one of today's most urgent moral dilemmas and examine why the US has never quite understood its own problem and why you can't fix what you refuse to see clearly. Get the American Way of Killing at pushkin.fm/audiobooks or at audible, Spotify or wherever audiobooks are sold. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.