2026 Mid-Season Awards

Observe. The North American dad. 50s. Great polo collection. He enters his vehicle information on Carvana. An offer appears in minutes. Remarkable. He squints, reads it again, smiles and says, Dang, that's a good offer. The highest form of approval. No haggling. No hassle. No one called him boss. He's still on the couch. Astonishing. Sell your car today on Carvana.com. Pickup fees may apply. Before this. There's this. As you celebrate the game, take a deeper look at its roots. The people grow in the grass, bathe in the lots, weld in the goalposts, inspecting every football. The hardworking people that make every Sunday possible. Carhartt is proud to outfit the crews behind the game. Visit Carhartt.com slash join the trades to learn more. Welcome to the Ringer WNBA show. I'm Seared Sohi. I'm joined by a fan favorite, a friend favorite, a personal favorite, Nikias Duncan of the Dunkers spot. What's up, man? How's it going? A fan? A fan favorite and a friend favorite is some high praise, so I really appreciate it. Happy to be here. Excited to chop it up with you. I know we are going to have some fun with this one, so just ready to dig in. Me too. Look, I just like the energy that you bring to the pod. I also was listening to your latest podcast with Steve. Don't let him stop you from saying possession maxing. Yes. We're not going to let him win. We can't. We can't let him win. I just think this is such an important moment. In American society right now, and I just don't think that people like Steve who are trying to police your language and your creativity and your imagination should have the final say, so you stay strong and keep maxing. Honestly, max maxing. Language maxing. Oh, dear. Maybe we'll bring you on for a maxing episode at some point. Oh, my. A W maxing episode would be a fun bit. It would be a fun bit. And honestly, it would piss him off. I do have a podcast to return to, so I'm going to leave it there. This is fair. And you know what? We do like Steve. We do like Steve around here. I just, you know, I think, you know, injustice anywhere is a threat to injustice everywhere. So I had to call that out. Nikias, we are going to do midseason awards. Granted, we're a little bit ahead of the midseason point of the WNBA season right now. But I just. I just figured, whatever, it'd be a good time to just check in on where the awards race is, is celebrate some of the more interesting players and also, like, talk a little bit of the horse race, right? Like, we'll do, we'll give up, we'll give out our awards. But I also think that there are some very interesting players that could have a run in the second half of the year that could shake things up as well. I'll plug, just, I wrote an article on The Ringer with my picks as well, but we'll probably get, go way more. In depth. Here. Nikias, I'll let you start this off because we're going to, we're going to open it up with the MVP. And we all kind of know who the MVP is. I would be shocked if your MVP pick wasn't Asia Wilson. But I think the most interesting thing about Asia Wilson's season is that, like, she's an active GOAT, right? Like, this is somebody who's 29 years old and she is at the top of her craft. There's nothing left for her to prove, you know? She has outpaced. Most of her peers in the rings department. She has outpaced anybody in WNBA history in the MVP department. She is a champion. She's going, she's trying to go back to back. But she doesn't act like it. She doesn't act like it. Like, she's still playing with so much ferocity. And every year she brings something new to her game. Like, this year, I feel like a lot of it has been the three-pointer. And we can get into all the ways in which that has opened up new aspects of her game. But I just think it is. It's such a joy to watch somebody and know in the moment that they are at their. They're not necessarily at their peak. Like, I'm very curious, like, when Asia will hit her peak, if this is her peak. Because there's a fusion at 29 of, like, skill, athleticism, IQ, and experience that I think is the sort of, like, magical ingredients when they all are there collectively that, you know, kind of tell you what somebody's peak is. But I still feel like there's probably a little bit more for her. Like, I feel like she feels like there's always a little bit more for her to get to. Yeah. Like, she feels that way first and foremost. The people around her feel that way. Becky Hammond feels that way, which is why she's always trying to find new ways to get her touches. We start her in the corner. We start her at the elbow. We start her above the break. She brings the ball up. Like, they are very much trying to, you know, stretch her as much as possible. And so it's been a joy for me, one, as a basketball fan, two, as an analyst, and three, someone that has, like, just been around Vegas as much as I have the last couple of years to, like, see and hear how they're going into making her more great and just how receptive she has been to that entire process. And so to go all the way back to the top, yes, Asia should be the frontrunner for MVP right now. Now, there is always, as we saw literally last year, there's always room for there's an ankle tweak or something like that happens, and then the race opens up further. And so I, you know, can't put it in pen for that very reason. But she is the heavy frontrunner for me right now. Like, it's 26-10. And three, I think to your point about kind of the final frontier for her, I think it is the passing, which is why she has talked so much about her own passing over the last year and a half. And I think tied to the usage of her being more expanded and her being moved around the board has generally been the passing that's coming off of it. Because she still sees help when she drives. Like, she's still seeing help when she gets post opportunities. And so her diagnosing double teams better and more quickly is important. And, like, her getting into more of the passes on the move bag has been interesting. Like, one of the things I asked her after the most recent win that they had against the Tempo, midway through the fourth quarter, like, she's attacking off the bounce for above the break, and she hits Melissa Smith with this bounce pass that she's, like, sealing. And she does that live. And it's like, Asia doesn't generally make those. Like, it's double team is here, here's a cutter, or double team, we go to the opposite wing. It's very rare that you get, I am actively attacking the basket, here's a live dribble feed a little bit in traffic with a little bit of a lead to it. So it's just like. As that continues to grow, there really isn't going to be anything you can do with her offensively. Like, she's having a down mid-range season this year, and teams are still terrified. She has been one of the most effective drivers in basketball this year, though the volume's down. You talked about the three-point shot, and she can always ramp the volume up. And then at the end of the day, you post her up, like, what do you do? She can shoot over you, she can drive through you, she can drive past you, she can get to the free throw line, and she probably could get more free throws based on the content that she's taking on some of these drives as well. Like, she's just insane. The defense, I feel like we'll get. a little bit deeper into in the deep-point section. It has still been very good. I would not be surprised if she ends up winning deep-point again. I've been fuzzier on it this year. I think part of it has been working herself back into peak Asia shape from the beginning of the year onward. Some of that has been some of the schematic shifts. Some of that has just been the personnel around her, so it hasn't felt as impactful this year. And even with that, the defense falls off a cliff without her, and she's averaging a steal and a half in two blocks. And so, like, the version of Asia defensively that I have, some quibbles about, is still doing that, which is a testament to how good she is. So, like, yeah, it starts with Asia in this conversation. Yeah, there's such a difference between stationary passing and movement passing. And I feel like also the fact that she has. She's driving more, and she's driving from the three-point line a lot more. And once you start doing that, you just become very difficult to double. Like, you can double somebody in the post, and she's figured out the stationary passing and the fact that, like, even when you do pressure her, like, it's just. It's so unlikely that she's going to turn it over. She's always, like, through all the things we talk about with her, like, she's always just been, like, such a low turnover player, too, which is so impressive. But seeing. Like, I feel like those two things are connected. Do you want to just. Like, we can switch back to the MVP runner-up. Like, I think we can just get into the Defensive Player of the Year stuff right now. So, I have her as my runner-up Defensive Player of the Year. I have Gabby Williams as my actual Defensive Player of the Year. And I just. I have a really hard time holding Asia's defense against. Or the AEC's defense against Asia, because, like you said, it falls off a cliff when she's not playing. It goes from, like, I think, top four in the WNBA to bottom four in the WNBA when she's not playing. And then she's also, I think, having to cover up a lot more than she historically has. Like, I think Jewel Lloyd is Jewel Lloyd. On defense, Jackie Young, unfortunately, has sort of fallen off the cliff defensively, especially as she's taken on more of an offensive role. And then with Chelsea, it's kind of a possession-to-possession, night-to-night basis. Like, I do think that Chelsea, at her best, is an elite defender, but at this point in her career, it's just not going to be every possession against every matchup. Mm-hmm. So, I. I guess, one, to the defensive stance, I think the Quill of the Fourth with her on, the Quill of the. or 13th when she's out. off and so it's kind of been a pretty consistent theme with me when it comes to asia as i've got deeper into the w coverage where i feel like she is almost always the most valuable defender in the league because she just holds up so much and she erases so many mistakes when you get into depoy it is a mix of value and also just best and what are you doing and obviously asia can hit a level that many if not anyone else can hit and so like she's always going to be around this conversation i found myself as i was getting into like some of the basic numbers some of the lineup numbers some of like the tracking data and things like that i became a lot more amenable to the gabby williams case and like the biggest thing that's been holding me back on the gabby portion is i don't think she's been their best her possession defender this year like i think that's been key as folks yeah but because of the offense key is only going to play 20 to 22 minutes and as you wrote about like she's not always going to close out those games and say downsize to go to juneau someone i'm sure we're going to talk about in a little bit and so like on a per possession basis kia has the impact but gabby is just going to impact more possessions and thus i think she's going to end up being the valkyrie's rep but even just looking at what gabby does like she takes on tough assignments on the wing nasty screen navigator very good hands you put her off the ball she could just play passing lanes with the best of them there's like a hint of like secondary rip protection on top of that she's just so good and has been so good that she's been so good that so consistently for what has been now the best defense in basketball so i think it's a very easy thing to map out um so i'll swing the rock to you give your deep boy thoughts i had a stat i want to get into but that's going to be a lot and so i don't want to no no let's hear it let's hear it yeah okay so one of the things i was looking at for the deep boy conversation was like how players are doing against other all-stars and so just doing some filtering on second spectrum it's like okay who's defended all-stars for the most touches this year number one is alyssa thomas because of number two is gabby williams and so then i was getting into like the points for possession allowed on these touches etc and so you have the overarching number and then you have the direct touch number which is essentially the offensive player they shoot the ball they have an assist opportunity they get fouled or they turn the ball over and so the league average for the overall number is 0.98 points for possession and the league average for direct touches is 1.03 points for possession for gabby williams that first number is 0.9 flat and that second number is 0.92 and so for her to be second in volume and then have those kind of markers she's well below which is better than league average it's just kind of insane and i guess making the direct asia comp right now she is tied for 41st in total touches defended against these others all-stars which is a lot of this is melissa spiff we are having you defend more fives as your own fours because they are space your options the aces obviously switch a bunch on top of that so she's not getting the same volume at least not right now we may just see up in the second half of the year but she's down the list there in terms of the overall number is 0.94 for her which is better than league average the direct number is 1.1 oh okay which is not what you would expect from asia wilson but again that is tied to assist opportunities things like that and then looking at that list two players in the bottom five are jewel lloyd and chelsea gray and so it's just like ha that makes sense yeah that they would all kind of be bunched together because they're defending actions together and so that's where it becomes easier to make a non-asia case and again that bodes very well on gabby williams but of course defense you have to watch these games you know what the scheme you need to know what the scheme is like as much as i could point out that number i could also go to the on off and asia just has a much wider split than gabby williams does and so like that isn't everything but that was something that i found pretty interesting who's the best oh see this is a fun one like looking at both the numbers like the mystics just grade very well in this as yeah is it sony up there is georgia abor funny okay yeah and so i was like was it before caitlyn chen destroyed her why aren't we talking about caitlyn chen is an all-star yeah maybe that's maybe that's the real problem hey listen he's perking up is she just going to be like this year's carla late she goes somewhere else next year and it's like oh well this is what it looks like with more volume that could be interesting i think she's just playing her up into playing her own way into the rotation in a way that like they they're consistently just having to play her more honestly she's really good she's been one of the best drivers of basketball for most of the season now it tripped me out because i looked earlier this year and like what her drive numbers were because every time i watch a valkyrie's game she's just getting two feet in the paint and finishing and she was like right around league average i was like that doesn't feel right like i'm watching this i guess they're just missed shots tied to some of the kickouts and things like she just feels so good league average in efficiency or league average in attempts league average in efficiency or just like the points generated off of those drives i was like this feels a lot lower than what i'm watching but over this last run because we just talked about the valkyries on friday on the dunker spot i think it's been like 1.3 during the it was like 1.3 during the win streak and i was like that feels more like the experience because she's been insane so it is like trending more to what the eyes have been telling me with her drives um but yeah like she's been incredible between uh gabby and asia right now okay and then we will see what happens with atlanta because earlier this year i was just like hey like it might be it's probably asia but if not her like i'm really leaning into this ryan howard case with how she started the year and the dream have just been one of the more interesting basketball teams to monitor interesting is such a kind word to use there like i just think interesting is interesting is a word that you could like you could you could just like what what's what am i looking for like you could just open up that umbrella and it could spread out in so many different directions like when you say interesting like you give me such a wide breadth of directions in which we could take any atlanta dream conversation and i appreciate that that is the beauty of the atlanta dream it can be huh what's going on here and on any given night it could also be what is going on here against the valkyries in particular it's been a lot of what is going on here because they just cannot beat them for whatever reason yeah um but it's interesting i guess i was just going to ask you beyond asia gabby who are some other players that you were kind of considering in this depoy conversation well okay so i just want to say like stick on a gabby point for one second longer here um i just i just feel like the other thing that i really appreciate about gabby and this is a kia thing and it's also um a natalie nakase thing and it's also the fact that it's very difficult to find a good switch or like a favorable advantage when you're defending against the valkyries they are the number one defense in wnba and look the number one defense in the wnba is never going to be built on one player right so it's almost like it's almost like having an mvp conversation about a player that's on a super team and which i mean we can actually even get into into that later um with page and and like the sort of discourse around her and and uh and jessica shepherd which i mean i'm very curious to get your thoughts on on that i think i think it's i think i think it's just one of the one of the more creative agenda mongering moments that we've had lately um but um so like yes like i understand the way that like kia stokes being so good defensively like it does it does hurt her case a little bit but one thing i really appreciate about the batteries and the defense is they dictate how you're going to defend like they make it very hard for an offense to get into what it's going to what it wants to get into because they're so physical with you and even if you try it's almost like losing bargain you know like it's like what's like what what difference does it really make to get a switch against against the valkyries in some instances so i do think that gabby also ends up guarding the best player more often um and i think that like i mean it speaks to like the all the all-stars that that you that you have there um and she's just had moments this season where it's like she's a defensive generator and i really appreciate that with like players who can turn um defense into instant offense um on the point of other defensive player of the year candidates i'm just gonna like i i was thinking about this before the pod i know you're gonna hate this take i think ryan howard is just larping on defense all the time oh my okay i don't think she gets up for the matchups that aren't gonna be like prime time honestly i think it's and she also cheats a lot on the defensive end i think she goes for like the home run play that's gonna make you go like oh my god what a great defensive play but i just don't think that she actually does like the day-to-day homework that you have to do to actually like be one of the best defenders on in the league on in like a consistent 44 game basis okay i would have one like larping just caught me off guard so like the the literal word is what generated the initial reaction i think to the actual take i don't think it's completely unfair on the ryan point i feel like it's more of like a dream wide issue but as what should be the best player face the franchise etc it is on you to set the tone on that end and so like she does have to eat some of that i think for me what's been different this year for me broadly speaking with ryan compared has been like yes the wild plays are there but i have felt better about some of the on-ball stuff and just in general the matchups that she would take on like it has felt like a higher volume of i got the number one instead of alicia gray and so like that paired with some of the off-ball plays that she can make and again to start the year the dream were just firmly a top two top three defense there has just been a consistent slide since then so like the volume is going louder and i think some of the prepossession stuff you're pointing to with ryan it feels louder because now more people are trying to investigate wait the dream were this now they're in this weird spot what's happening here and so like ryan is just having to eat more of that on top of that like Like, she has the talent, obviously, to kind of shift that around. Because on any given night, to your point about the marquee matchups, you turn on the Fever games, like, yeah, I'll guard Caitlyn, and then if I have to shift Kelsey Mitchell, I'll do that. If you try to run that Iverson action to get either one of them to touch, I will just pick six that. It's just like, oh, snap, Brian Howard is just wrecking this game right now. She very much has that in her. It just has to be a steady build on the prepossession stuff, to your point. She has so much in her. Like, I think that's one of the things with Ryan that I struggle with sometimes, right? But, hey, actually, you know what? Sidebar, did you watch the game against Chicago? I did not. Okay, you know what? Never mind. I was going to derail the pod, but I won't. Oh, dear. It was just like the Bree Jones of it all. It's been really, really interesting so far. Oh, gotcha. Yeah, yeah. You know what? Maybe a different pod. Yeah, just think it has to be on a more regular basis for me to, like, really think about her for this award. What's that? I don't know. Is this the most recent one? This was the Bree Jones debut? Yeah. Oh, I did watch that one. Because Bree Jones came in, got a post-up on the right side of the floor, immediately got double-teamed. It's like, oh, no. So I might have been thinking of a game past that. But, yeah. Okay, okay. I just think, like, look, like, the Atlanta Dream are in a very difficult spot, right? Like, at the same time, I feel like Bree Jones came in, immediately made everybody's life easier. Like, I feel like Atlanta has been really nice on paper for a lot of this season. But a lot of the times, like, it just feels like the pieces haven't fit very well together. And now that Bree Jones is back, I almost feel like it's like a shirt that was, like, buttoned to the wrong buttons. And then, like, it's, like, a really nice shirt. But it's, like, it obviously doesn't look good if it's buttoned incorrectly. Now it is buttoned correctly. And you're like, oh, this all makes so much sense. Like, Bree Jones makes such a big, like, downstream impact on everybody. You can see it, like, right away. Like, Alicia Gray, she gets her handoff partner back. That game winner. That game winner with Jordan Canada has so much to it. Like, there was, it came off of the Bree Jones handoff into a screen. And nobody can set a screen in the WNBA the way that Bree Jones can. There was also, why is Elizabeth Williams in that game? She gets beat off the action after J.C. Sheldon, who is also a defensive LARPer, just completely loses Jordan Canada. Jordan Canada, that downhill speed, incredible. Having an awesome season. Great to see her get recognized with a game winner. And then just Angel Reese rocking her like a baby in her arms after was just so awesome. Like, everything about that was so awesome. And it just gave you this window into what the dream can be in that, like, in that game. Before Angel Reese went down with, like, the leg injury, she gets to play the four again. I don't know her best game, but you can tell there's just a level of comfort she has at that position that's just different. And, like, you're already sort of seeing, like, okay, that high-low is going to be pretty nice. Canada's speed with Jones' ability to screen is just. Alicia Gray has been missing a handoff partner for this entire season. Like, she has needed Bree Jones back. I think Alicia Gray is going to have a really nice second half of the year. And then, honestly, because Bree Jones creates so much pressure in the paint, it doesn't even piss me off that Ryan takes so many threes. She's had a good three-point shooting season. We can tell. No, she's had a great season. Now I'm being a little hard on you. No, this process failed. I understand. Okay, so, one, I know what my brain did now. So, I didn't watch the Sky game in full, but I didn't get to catch the end. The tempo game was the debut for Bree Jones. I was like, I know I've seen Bree Jones play basketball for the Atlanta Dream this season. That's what it was. Okay, and then I'm glad that you brought up Bree Jones, which is very funny to bring up Bree Jones in an awards conversation very much, since she has played a grand total of two games at this point. But this is why I like having a basketball conversation. We can just kind of expand. We can go anywhere we want. It's an open world. It's an open world. But no, I've just been kind of, to the overall, what's happening with the Dream, what can they establish type bit. Bree Jones, I think, is so important to just giving them a level of security or just giving them a higher floor. And I think that's where the offense had kind of tailed off to where it's like, okay, if Ryan doesn't have the shot, make it going. If Alicia isn't getting to the basket and getting to the free throw line a bunch, it's led to a whole lot of Jordan Canada. Like, she has been game for it this year, which is why I think she's kind of been on the fringes of all-star conversations this year. But conceptually, for me, it's just like, I'm glad Jordan Canada is doing this. I'm a bit concerned that they have needed this much Jordan Canada to this point to kind of save them from those possessions. And now having Bree Jones, who can just check in and just in the auto-double, a really good streaming partner, a really good handoff partner on top of that, and someone that can just get you side to side with handoffs as well. Like, she should just make life so much easier for everyone on that team. And I am excited to see what the Dream look like, what her more. More in the fold. Yeah, me too. It's going to be fun. I'm really excited for second half, a lot of Dream. All right. You want to double back to MVP runner-up? Yes, we can. Then I want to circle back to the Depoy thing very quickly. Okay, let's just finish that off then. That's okay. Let's circle back to Depoy. Did you have anything, anybody else you wanted to talk about? Like, I think for me, like, I'm still trying to process. I need your all-locker list at some point. It may not need to be this podcast. Maybe it's an article. Maybe it's just a podcast. Podcast segment at some point. I need your defensive LARPers list. But beyond that, the Liberty stretch has made me sad because I was very ready to plant the flag on, like, hey, Stewie might not win it, but, like, this might be a year where she could sneakily push for her first Defensive Player of the Year award. It is still insane that she has never won one of these. But either way, she's still been very good defensively, but I don't know if the Liberty, they have, you know, less than half of the season to get it together. But they need to turn it quickly so she can have, like, the narrative push behind her on top of that. Yeah. Because she's been so important for them. I thought about Stewie a lot while I was writing these awards because if there was a all-around WNBA player award, she would win it this season. She is doing so many things on a star level. But for me, she was, like, probably third or fourth in, like, my MVP runner-up, probably third in my Defensive Player of the Year rankings, right now. But it is honestly one of the ones that, like, you could walk me back on, for sure. Like, I could slot Stewie in for Asia Wilson in the runner-up category because I think that they're going through pretty similar circumstances. It's just that for Asia, it's bearing itself out in the numbers in a more obvious way. But I think with Stewie, she's been put in a position where she has to basically keep everything together and just keep that defense from just cratering in so many different moments. And you see it in the amount of zone coverage that they're playing, the way that they rely on Stewie to be everything in that zone. You see it in the way that she is cleaning up multiple two-on-one actions. You see it in the individual matchups that she's guarding as well. I think it is just, I think it's interesting like, I really, I felt bad that I couldn't get Stewie on the list. And then also the other part is that, like, genuinely, I think Liberty fans are so down bad right now that they couldn't even bring themselves up to be, like, really upset about it either. Like, to a point that made me, that made me sad that they couldn't bring themselves to be, like, really, really angry about it. But you look at this Liberty season, and she's been truly the only consistent thing about it. And she is. She's play-saving on both ends. And things would be so much uglier for them if she wasn't having the kind of season that she's having. No, she's been the same. Wanted to make sure I got Stewie in there. Last two things for me. One, would you have a Mystics rep? I got, like, Sony is going to be, like, all, all, like, my first team, for sure, for all defense at this point. Like, I just, I think the amount of matchups she's defending and, like, the. the numbers that she's holding individual matchups to has just been absolutely incredible. And she's also guarding the best perimeter player on the other team. And she can do it in so many different ways. Like, I think that she's somebody who you can, like, she can chase someone around a screen all game. Like, she has the stamina to deal with that type of matchup. She can simultaneously, like, lock you up one-on-one. She's always been one of the best, like, going back to college, like, star. She's one of the best defenders in the W. She has scouting report awareness, which is actually really impressive, like, to a degree that's really impressive for a player that is as young as she is. So she's probably my rep. I think Kiki is pretty underrated defensively just because, like, she doesn't necessarily wow you as a rim protector. I think that she gets punished for that because of her position, when in reality, I think she's one of the better perimeter defenders. Yeah, the activity is there. The activity is totally there. What do you think? Do you have a. Do you have a. Do you have a Mystics rep? Like, I think Sonya will probably be in this and, like, to the all-star touches bit from earlier, 0.82 overall, 0.85 against direct touches against all-stars, both lower numbers than Gabby Williams. The volume is just the difference between those two. But, yeah, it's just kind of insane. It's just like, well, the Mystics are the third best defense in basketball. They are, yeah. It's just like, this young group is insane. So I was wondering if you had someone on that front. And then, what was my other question? Well, I just love. One more thing on the Mystics. I just love the way they lean into toughness as well. And I feel like they almost found a solution to some of the point guard stuff in their last game. where they like just basically like started Cody at the point guard in like the fourth quarter against the Valkyries and they switched everything and they were just so big like they're so destructive um I just thought that was fun sorry go ahead no that's fine the other thing I was going to ask like is it Nia Coffey is it Natasha Howard do you have a Lynx representative of this or it's just like oh it's just some of the parts for you I'm holding off I'm just holding off like I just like I already like Alana Smith I've like look look Cheryl Reeve I've seen what you do for bigs that aren't getting utilized in other in other systems I I get it um I just I'm just holding off I'm just holding off second team yeah uh what about you okay like beginning of the year I'm just like hey we might need to talk about Nia Coffey as like a legit deep work yeah their defense also falling off the cliff like I think yeah it's just like yeah it's like unrelated to why fees back actually I can't chill till after the all-star break I guess let me uh let me head on back yeah I just think I think I think Cheryl watch like the storm almost found to come back and she was like yeah all right are you sure you can't play right now we need this but yeah I think to go from I'm a rotation piece in Atlanta so I'm no longer in the rotation to like hey you are playing 28 to 30 minutes a night and taking on the matchups that she did and was doing such a well I think it has just kind of weighed on her to a degree so like I'm excited for you to come back because duh I'm excited for you to come back but if Nia Coffey and like your job is still hit threes to defend but you just have more energy to do it I just wonder what that's going to do for her yeah in this second half push but okay just want to ask yeah no I mean hey I think she's somebody we could talk about like maybe like the most improved category too which has like 20 candidates this year um but yeah no I think I think that's where I'm at with it uh all right you want to talk MVP or MVP yes all right who'd you have yes uh so I landed on I landed on Olivia Miles okay but boy does Olivia Miles versus Paige Becker's have me in a freaking headlock Paige has been so incredibly good at basketball actually I want to circle back to Paige because like I picked Olivia I should probably start with Olivia for her to take on the amount of responsibility that she's had to take on this year as a rookie and as a rookie under Cheryl Reeves specifically to where she will absolutely sit you down if you are not game for it that just generates a baseline level of impressiveness for me but the way that she has evolved in season has been kind of crazy she has been a dynamic driver the entire way through she's been a dynamic playmaker the entire way through we hit a portion like seven eight games in where teams are like yeah let's just duck under more aggressively let's switch more against her and I'm just like hey Olivia's got to start taking more of these pull-ups or teams are going to get comfortable with this coverage and I think she's like shortly after yeah shortly after we get the Valkyries game where they went under more screens than any other opponent and Olivia's like yeah what if I just make all the plays and I'm like yeah I'm going to I think since then it's just like what is the scheme answer you put two on the ball like Minnesota had some fun reps against her a couple other teams that had some fun reps against her putting two on the ball I think the Valkyries did so as well it was like a nasty box score game for her the next time out like she's just gaming it there really doesn't seem to be a comfortable answer she's up 36 percent on threes now in addition to the driving and the playmaking and then there is still like there is a baseline level of event creation defensively at the very least for her to where like I like event creation yeah so like for me I've talked about this with Steve as well like the tracking data that I look at for defense like especially when the links were the best defense in basketball she was always like top three to five and everything and I was like okay I'm watching the links Olivia Miles has not been like a deep boy candidate but she is like doing her job you get somebody off all lapses she does like slump the shoulders a little bit after she defends in action then you get it with cuts and stuff so like she's probably closer to neutral slight positive than she is all defense level but the fact that she can do her job within the system yeah she's probably closer to neutral with the offensive load that she has is super impressive to me yeah well I'll continue the Olivia Glaze even though I picked Paige because it was really really close um on the defense that's one of the things that I've been most impressed by and it's probably the biggest reason I this this got so close to me um defense has not been great as of late for Minnesota however when they were up there I think Olivia was beyond actually being a neutral part of that I think that she was one of the things that's most impressed me about her is that obviously she's incredibly smart but she has we talk about this all the time well uh this player is so smart on the offensive end of the court like they should be able to use her IQ on defense she's actually doing that like I think she has an understanding of people's tendencies um and maybe it's not even that because I think that she's like man it's like the like we can get into like the spectacle the goggles of it all but I think one of the biggest skills that Olivia Miles has is like she's like she's like she's like has is she reads people's micro movements better than just about anybody I've ever seen like I think that's what makes her such a special in the moment playmaker um it's beyond like the like she's obviously she's got the eye fakes the head fakes like gets in the air changes her mind like she toys with you as a pastor like she dictates what she wants you to do basically like she will turn like a she'll she'll do like the like pass one way hit you the next obviously all of that stuff but I think that she's transferred that at her best to the defensive end of the court too where she just recognizes small things and then she's able to pounce on them like she had a game-winning block I can't even remember who was against at this point she had the game-winning block um she had like the back and forth with Kiki as a helper like yeah sure like there's some fouling going on there um but the fact that she's willing to get in the mud like that as a helper I mean look you have to if you're gonna play in a show reef um defense but she's in the spots like she's in the spot she's where she's supposed to be um and then she's actually like like like you said the event creation like that's that's ultimately what it comes down to with her um so yeah like she she's fantastic it's really close with her and Paige and and Olivia is actually like she's won the uh head-to-head matchup the links are three and oh although I do think that has way more to do with like who the pick and roll the defenders are in that context than it is because like I think they're they've actually been like pretty even against each other like Paige has played really really well against Minnesota I mean hey it's a homecoming for her uh it's not like like I don't think Miles I don't think either of those players are really stopping the other um right um but I do think that like I do think that Miles has been very impressive defensively and it's the biggest reason I almost went with her but I just think that the season that Paige is having is something unlike anything that we've ever seen but I think that's the biggest reason I almost went with her but I just think that the season that Paige is having is something that I almost went with her but I just think that the from a standpoint of tough shot making combined with the efficiency um I wrote an article about this and we did a YouTube video on it as well but Paige Beckers has finally done the thing that we have been asking her to do for a long time which is be more selfish and shoot the ball shoot the ball and just like come to this understanding that look I get it your teammates open that's a shot it's oftentimes better than your teammate taking an open shot and that's a cliche in basketball it is statistically true with Paige Beckers in a way that has continued to scale up even though she is posting up more she is taking more isolation shots she is taking more shots in general from everywhere on the court um she's taking more threes as well she's that's that's another thing that's really helped her efficiency like a lot of the long twos are gone like she gets to it in a way that's way more reminiscent of like a Brianna Stewart or an Ephesia Collier where it's like I'm gonna get two feet in the paint and fade and turn around and like once I'm 10 feet 14 feet within the rim like you are done like you are absolutely toast um she gets doubled and she's like well okay you're doubling me from the one side I'll go to the other side um and it's led to this like unprecedented crunch time run of like multiple comebacks that have all been fueled by her scoring and that's before you even get into the fact that she's an incredible passer it's before you even get into the fact that she's like one of the best floor general generals and table setters that you'll ever see in basketball like that's before you get into I do think the defense has fallen off a little bit but she's still she's still like a neutral to good defender um and and and it's like it you combine but you combine that with the playmaking ability and I just don't know that there's like it's a really fun debate I was gonna say I don't know that there's an offensive engine I'd want more I think like the Olivia side of the debate is she just generates so many layups even with like she gets the rim at will that first step is amazing she's finishing with both hands her moves getting to the rim like the the Hezzy's and like the the push dribbles and like all of like the the flair like the the stuff that reminds you of she's just so good at like creatively finding a way to get there so I can see why you would rather have that than have than than have Paige she was like kind of the opposite and like she gets everything from the mid-range but she she mid-range is so efficiently that it's like it's better it's like it's oftentimes better than somebody else shooting a three you know what I mean like it's just it's two different styles I love them both I just give Paige a slight edge because I think like the impact that she's had in Dallas which I don't like look I don't like I frankly don't really think Dallas is a very good team um I think they have a really good record right now because they have had multiple double-digit comeback wins that she has led. But this is a team that should be, like, in a much more precarious spot of just, like, scoring a lot of points and not winning games. But they win games because of her. No, I think that's a very firm page case. I think it's easy. I was looking at some of the tracking data for her as I was getting my notes together. 1.15 points for possession on trips featuring a page iso, which is nuts. That's not what that's supposed to look like. Nearly 1.2 when she posted up, as you alluded to. And I have loved Jose just saying, like, actually, let's run a cross screen for you to get you a touch near the basket and let you face up and get into turnaround jumps or whatever you want to get to. So, like, that part's been insane. Very good in pick and roll. She's been good in dribble handoffs as well. Like, the value of Paige not really being able to be taken away scheme-wise. There's nothing. It's like. It's a quite, like. You know what? That applies to Olivia, too. It does. But it's just, like, with Paige in particular, if you're facing defense, like, hey, we're putting two on the ball in pick and roll every time. Like, one, Paige can make the reads. But also, it can be like, all right, cool. We're just going to run Paige off staggers and see what you do. And, like, okay, you're trying to top lock her with the staggers. Cool. We're just going to cross screen her or up screen her. She can get into the cutting. Or, okay, cool. Diagonal screen, get her a touch at the elbow. Now it's just post-up time. Like, you have. Automatic counters and different play types that you can get into with Paige with volume. Like, in a way that you can't with Olivia, at least not yet. Because, like, Olivia isn't the movement shooter that Paige can be, at least not right now. So, like, that kind of malleability is so valuable and it's so impressive for Paige. This is year two for her. She looks like a nine-year vet. It's insane. Olivia looks like a vet, too. Honestly. Yeah. So, like, I think. It's so funny to have to rank these players. Yeah. Because they're just two people that, like, I've been listening to myself almost argue against myself. Because they're both amazing. Like, I don't really want to denigrate one to make the other one look good. Like, they're both doing things that are generational. That we've just never seen players this young be this intelligent and this intrepid at the same time. But to your point, though, on the malleability, I think that's the beauty of the mid-range. That's the beauty of being able to make. Like, tough mid-range shots in a multiple, like, variety of ways. Now you can just go anywhere on the court. Like, they will fit. Like, it's just, like, she'll figure it out. You pushed hard today. Now give your body what it needs tonight. Before you drift off, reach for Icy Hot Nighttime Recovery Roll-On for fast-acting pain relief with a blend of lavender and eucalyptus. It'll help soothe muscles and joints while you sleep, supporting overnight recovery, setting you up for a stronger, longer-lasting recovery, and keeping your body in shape for the rest of the day. After a painful day, make Icy Hot part of your nighttime recovery ritual. Icy Hot. You're so back. When the sun goes down, the appetizers come out. Yeah, you heard that right. Late-night half-price appetizers are here at Applebee's. Saucy, sweet, and spicy boneless wings. Crispy, cheesy mozzarella sticks. Creamy spinach and artichoke dip. Your favorite apps, half-price, available every single night. Because why should I. Appetizers have curfews. Tap the banner to learn more. Dining only for a limited time at participating locations. Restrictions apply. Copyright 2026 Applebee's Restaurant, LLC. This episode is brought to you by Viore. When it comes to clothes that score high in both comfort and style, Viore is my MVP. Sunday Performance Joggers, oh yeah. They have the perfect I-could-watch-a-game-then-go-out-to-dinner vibe. And the MetaPant, that's my number one I-need-to-look-like-I-tried option. Get 20% off your first purchase at Viore. Visit Viore.com slash Simmons and discover the versatility of Viore clothing. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. It just does not matter. Can I ask you an MVP philosophy question? Oh, yeah. Because I know, especially like reading your piece, like I know you factor in like lineup data to some degree when it comes to these candidates. Where are you at on-court rating versus on-off rating? What do you mean? Like, okay, between. Between the two numbers, like, is it more important to you that a team does this when this player is on the court? Or is it more. Or does it weigh more heavily for you that the team looks like this when this player is off the court? Or like the overall split? I think the off-the-court stuff, it can be so dictated by the rotations. Like, I really value that type of stuff, but I feel like you always have to put it in context. Like, I would say that with on-the-court and off-the-court. How about you? Yeah. Like, for me, like, both have. Has its value. Depends on what conversation you're trying to have. Like, I probably factor in just the pure on-court rating more, especially over the last few years. Like, Matt Moore, Zach Lowe, and a few others have really made the point, like, no, this is more important. Why is that? Well, I think for me, if you're looking at MVP or any award, like, I think it is more valuable to argue what the player is actively doing versus what's happening when they're not on the court. And so that's where it's like, I still. Like, with the age of defense thing, it's still important to highlight, hey, this is where they're at with her on the court. They're fourth or whatever the case may be. It may be defensively. They do fall off a cliff without her. And so, like, when you look at their overall bad defensive rating or, like, middling defensive rating, it's important to have that context that, hey, this is largely. They're getting browbeat when she's not on the floor. And that's dipping the overall number, whatever. Yeah. I ask you this now because when I was looking at the Olivia first page stuff and getting into some of the lineup data in particular, the Minnesota Lynx, a plus 13.6 net rating with Olivia Miles on the floor. It's a plus eight with Paige on the floor. The Lynx are a better team with Olivia than the Wings are with Paige. You look at the on-off between those two, the Wings are 12.3 points for 100 possessions better with Paige on the floor. It's plus 10.2 with Olivia. It's like you have a wider split with Paige. It kind of reinforced to me, one, these two are incredible and this is a tough decision. But it also just kind of. This is why I wanted to bring the question to you, like, which one resonates with you more? Well, I think it just speaks to the teams more than it speaks to the players, honestly. Like, I think it's because Minnesota has a higher baseline. They also have a point guard in Courtney Williams. Who can, like, plug and play into those minutes. Whereas without Paige. And this is where you can get into the Jeff Shep of it all. Like, there's been people kind of trying to make the argument that Paige shouldn't get MVP because Jessica Shepard is, like, potentially the MVP of that team. Look, I love what Jessica Shepard has done. I think she has one of the most fascinating basketball journeys ever. Like, from going to, like, being a point guard. And then going to Notre Dame. And then Cheryl Reeve, actually, herself, being like, hey, if you want to be amazing in the WNBA, you have to get in better shape. To her getting in amazing shape. Then her going overseas. And, like, really kind of diving into, like, a different style of hoops that has made her really, really modern and perfect for this moment. Like, I'm a big Jess Shep fan. There's just no universe in which she is the MVP of that team. Like, I do not know what we were talking about when we talk about that. Especially, I mean. Like, factoring the on and off numbers, she's been so bad defensively that they're actually better by the numbers when she's not on the court. And, like, I'm talking one of the worst defenders on the league. Not even a LARPer because she's not pretending. Like, there have been so many possessions where I'm like, she's just, like, she's doing, like, the thing that, like, young players do sometimes when they're just waiting for the defensive possession to be over because they know they're going to go and cook on offense. And if that. That doesn't change. That's actually going to create, like, huge team-building issues for the wings going forward because you love what she brings on offense and you love what she's unlocked for you. But you're never going to win a title playing that way. That's a different conversation. But I think, yeah, to your question, it speaks to a different sort of. Like, I just think it speaks to the team-building more than it speaks to either of those players. And on the larger MVP philosophy thing, I think that we have played so fast and loose with the V in MVP. It was never meant to be analyzed this much. We were never meant to actually think about MVP in a way of like, okay, well, what does value actually mean? It's supposed to mean who's the best player in the league. You know, like, I would. I would lightly push back. I like that we have deeper thought into this kind of thing. Like, I don't want to. I think we just got a little too far with it. Like, I don't mind it. But I think one of the sort of pet peeves I have with award stuff is that people change the definition of it just to fit whoever they want to win as opposed to actually thinking about the definition itself in a way that, like, makes you think deeper about basketball and team-building. Okay. Like, I don't think that's untrue or unfair. I do think there's just. There's going to be a level of narrative-building. There's going to be a level of, like, I like this player and thus, yada, yada, yada. I think, like, zooming out, though, to your point about this is supposed to be the best player in the league, I think we just have more ways to analyze or interpret best. You know what I mean? I think we can have a more full-fledged conversation about, like, what is actually the best. Because the best in 1960 might have been, okay, which players averaged the most points? And, like, we now have a better understanding of there are players that can average 25 and be an active detriment. into your team because of everything. else like i think we have generally gotten smarter as a basketball community there is still plenty of room to go but we have generally gotten smarter about how we look at those things so i think that's how we got into the branching off of okay what is valuable because we have different ways to measure value etc and i think ideally that should lead to a lot of free-flowing conversation that should lead to you know different thoughts being shared etc i think at the best in the media space that happens but to your point we do have the other side that because we can go in different ways i can kind of be disingenuous about some of this and now the waters get muddied and then it just gets you know yeah for sure it can get fun guys i don't think you have a disingenuous bone in your body i think i think you're coming at coming at things from the most curious and open possible point of view um do you want to talk rookie of the year i mean it's obviously it's obviously olivia miles but there's some fun runner-up conversations to have yeah let's get to the rookie of the year thing because i think we just had olivia we just had the mvp conversation with olivia miles i think it's easy to understand why she is the front runner for rookie of the year i think az is a firm number two right now this is kind of where i wish because i believe i don't have an official ballot i believe it is just like pick your winner when it comes to rookie of the year versus a top three or top five i do wonder if it was a top three who would be third because i think at different points this year that could have been paulie and that could be flage johnson that could be our farm you could just kind of bounce around under shoot first two weeks of the season was like wait are we gonna have to put yvonne and okage in this because she's just kind of lighting the world on fire for the mercury and then mercury fell off a cliff and nobody just no longer in the league and you know so things just change obviously but az is probably too the our farm case is really starting to speak to me though like i don't think she's going to do nearly like barring an injury that ends the season for olivia miles like i don't think she's going to do nearly like barring an injury that ends the season for olivia miles like i don't think there's much to talk about when it comes to who's winning the award but for theoretical runner-up like it's easy as of july 22nd we get to august 22nd i hey always been so good the three-point shooting the drives bloody her usage as a screener like some of the activity defensively especially when seattle ramps it up she does a lot and she's learning quickly and the processing speed is already there we're not going to be able to do anything about it we're not going to be able to do anything about it we're not going to be able to do anything about it which it takes a minute for bigs in particular to process the floor on both ends of the floor and like she is getting it immediately i just want to say her name on the podcast like again olivia is the winner az should be too but boy am i enjoying watching all fun play basketball our fam makes she makes me so excited to watch basketball when she at her height takes a quick release three on the pop i just start thinking about 2030 like she's just one of those players in the same way that olivia and page and caitlin are redefining what the point guard position means in the modern age awa fam and dominique malanga are redefining what the big position is going to be i think it's so interesting that they both cite asia wilson as their biggest idol and of course like that's that is the measuring stick but when i think about what their games both of their games could look like it doesn't look like asia wilson it doesn't look like anybody we've ever seen you know it's this hybrid of probably multiple different players some lauren jackson who i think um is is big sense because she's also an international player um and i just love the way that those two play off of each other like the headline is twin towers obviously but it's not really about their size it's about the fact that they're both like international players and they're nationally developed fluid bigs who like can do things that really serve where the game is going as far as taking on different matchups defensively as far as their passing game i think awa is somebody who can definitely be like a high post offensive hub and they're different enough where dom i think is is like a legit center um and she's going to be more of like that low post threat as well and the way that like even her like fadeaway is developing it's just incredible and it's really contested you can't it's it's interesting like i wonder when we'll start to get into the conversations where like i don't know if like the the wnba really has its version of like the shack charles barkley talking head that's like why is victor wembanyama not going to the rim like i i almost i i feel i i feel it in the winds that that's like eventually coming like i was looking at some of awa's um like layup stats and stuff only like five percent of her shots have been layups um like at some point somebody is going to get mad about that it is not going to be me i don't think it's going to be you no problem but like they're gonna change the game in a way that i think kind of like will destabilize uh some people's sense of of of uh of like what it looks like to play like good high level basketball for a big like i think to that point i want to give her credit like i have loved the way she's moved these bigs around like you turn on a storm game if you don't watch a fool you turn on a storm game there's going to be a possession very early on where dominique malanga is getting some sort of screen or she's trailing the play and she says catch the ball like 19 and a half feet from the basket and she's going to turn and she's going to wait and it's like okay is there a cutter available i will hit them if not i can flow it to a handoff partner right beside me if not i may just face up and just drive all the way to the basket and then get into a full-fledged rim attack or one of the turnarounds you talked about and like i will get some of that but they also just run our off of screens i'm just like that's not there's a stretch big like i'm just like why are we running our farm off of pin downs and not even like the because like asia gets staggered of course and we have the asia connection how much she means to those two players in particular but it's like it's not even like we run like the aces will run asia off a stagger they'll get her a touch at the elbow and the mid-range shot or drive from there like these are actually nobody in the court when she runs off a stagger no one knows what's none of our defenders ever know what to do with it yeah and so like when i was just like no this is like an actual movement shooting set for you yeah for you to catch and immediately fight like that is such a different dynamic for a four with like five height at the very least i won't say five size yet she's got a bulk up but it's just like what do you what do you do with the chances so i don't like think she wants to ever be a five i was actually i got to talk to her when she was in la with the with seattle and one of the big reasons that she actually stayed at valencia instead of going to college was the way that they developed bigs and the fact that they were going to allow her to play power forward like that's ultimately what she sees herself as i know that's fair it's more of a general like she has just grown more into the w oh yeah sure yeah like i will be yeah yeah so like i don't listen if the storm decide we need you to gain 30 pounds you could be a five i'm going to have a lot of questions and a lot of comments on the dunker spot podcast or other entities uh so i hope they do not deviate that much but like just play strength in general it's gonna have to get better but like i love that there's already an understanding of what the skill sets for those two beings are right now and also if we move them here we can force them to kind of get better at seeing the game in this way we can force them to expand their pack in this way and so as you think of 2030 and what's gonna look like wow fam i'm looking like man what is august about to look like for her what is september about to look this is like hey they are getting it quick dom is an all-star already no for sure like that is oh boy i enjoy watching seattle basketball yeah where what about flagey johnson like last last 10 games for her have been really awesome that's another like fun player development success story that i don't i i think i don't think that as many players would be able to have like the first like 10 15 games of her season that flagey johnson had as far as just like letting it rip and being okay with like shooting 25 from the field i think that genuinely takes a level of like long-term vision and confidence that i think in young players we should celebrate more than we denigrate and it's and now like she is getting to she's getting like i wrote about this i think i i like i i think seattle fans like some of it took the wrong way that was intended as complimentary for flagey um like i love flagey uh last 10 games she's like 18 points like shooting efficiently um the rebounds are really up there the stocks are incredible like where are you at on her season it's been a roller coaster in the best way i think once you if you have the baseline like flagey incredible athlete incredible slasher already on ball defense is very strong the off-ball defense can be very floaty and so like funny enough like you're watching the fever storm game over the weekend and i'm just like oh you are guarding kelsey mitchell you can the first screen doesn't matter like you have to navigate that one but it's not that there is a bad cut coming and so it's like seeing her in their first quarter it's like ah flagey i need you to get it but like she has the talent to get it she has certainly has the athleticism to get it too and so for me it's been a lot of oh here's the special quote my guy pd webb because like she could just access driving lanes that other wings just can't yeah with her burst and just her ability to kind of navigate tight quarters and still get to looks and like she's not afraid to go like inside hand some of those stress me out sometimes i'm just like hey you can just use your left like it's fine let's get a shot on goal but like she draws so many fouls on those it's like i can't really be mad about it yeah and so it's just like she's such an interesting watch for me specifically because i am so process peeled with flage you sometimes just have to turn the brain off and just be like let her go let her cook yeah because they're going to be possessions where okay you didn't have to take this shot there was someone right beside you defense got to stand up and then she'll get a chase down block that maybe four other wings in the league can get and it's like well that's why you let flage do what she does and then she knocks down some of these pull-ups and it is to the drives it's like that's why you let flage do what she does and i've also been a little surprised with just how much like pick and roll and handoff create a bit um responsibility that she's gotten this year like simplified reads so like she's not sprinkling in like the olivia miles passes or anything but it's like huh like she is seeing that stuff better as the season goes on so like yeah so like i'm higher on the experience now that i would have been and again i've had to like adjust my own kind of mentality watching the storm sometimes i was like okay like you are a process guy like some of this is just going to be flage and making music you just have to let no pun intended i guess but like you just kind of have to let her be who she is and like analyze based off of that yeah i've enjoyed the girl from me too me too um how about coach of the year it's shell reed for me right right i just hey man you don't have a piece of collier you lose pretty much your entire front court and as a recording it's third in offense second to defense first in that rating you're the only team with a plus 10 net rating or better it's just like well hey what are you supposed to do with like there's such an easy case to make such an easy case to make that i think the conversation is going to open up by default i really hope it doesn't like i really the best coach in professional sports in most cases doesn't get to win coach of the year because we have forget about mbp fatigue we have coach of the year fatigue like no it's it's i'm so glad you said this the las vegas aces in 2023 have like a top two regular season of all time and becky hammond because she won coach of the year in year one finishes i think fourth or fifth in coach of the year voting i'm just like what are we talking about this is not best team in the league this is you are better than all but one version of the league of the houston comets with a longer season and people are just like and we knew they were going to be good like you did not know they were going to do this no and also that's like the best the best coaches get to coach all-time teams because they can push them to a place that they wouldn't be able to get to without them we can't punish the best coaches for having great talent that is the that that those are the spoils that you get for being great like that's it's it's completely unfair and i think the cool thing though for cheryl reed this season hasn't had all the best ingredients but she's still showing you that it doesn't matter what you give her she's gonna cook like that's what she does like and it's like okay like there's the olivia miles aspect of it right like we haven't seen olivia miles in the wnba without cheryl reeves so that's that's a that's a question mark but she takes a player like nia coffee who is like fledgling at the end of an atlanta dream rotation which i think she shouldn't have been i think she should have played more but now she's a three and d monster with like all defensive team hope team hopes that you have to like bring up in a conversation about defensive player of the year natasha howard it's all layups it's all layups for her like she's just getting the best shots that she's ever gotten in her career at this age she's having a renaissance the likes of which alissa thomas had last year with with nate tibbets like that's a lot of that that's that's olivia miles a lot of that is cheryl reeve and her understanding of role definition um and also just like the ways in which she's still able to be flexible within those things like i think so many people thought oh no like olivia miles and cheryl reeves and cheryl reeves how's that gonna work like cheryl's a taskmaster cheryl's like gonna like just not let olivia cook and like no cheryl's she's doing man she's gonna put olivia in the best possible position to to cook um and then like just letting corny williams like just still be a mid-range monster at the same time like man the way she moves right around the board like she's she's so incredibly good how many coaches did you consider for runner-up because i know who your runner-up is yeah how many did you end up well in the interest of not getting caught up in the coaching fatigue of it i definitely thought about natalie nikasi back to back for sure i think that's like a very valid conversation that you have to have um sydney johnson i think is somebody who's like i mean i just just from the player development standpoint and also just like the in-game defensive adjustment standpoint like he just knows what he wants this team to do i get that there are like mystics fans who don't love the direction of the game but i think that's a very valid conversation i think that's a very valid but he he has a vision and he's executing it and his players love him and they're getting better every year um and yes we would all love to see lauren betts play more but like let's also you know shout out to the coaching staff for putting her in a position where like the mid-range it's coming along it's improving her and shakira playing better together um well like those are like really the two big ones i considered who who did you have okay i have natalie nikasi's name written down i have sydney johnson's name written down i have jose fernandez written name written down yeah because like there is something to just the overall empowerment of jessica shepherd yes 100 yeah which that's we'll work as a segue to the most approved conversation when we get there but like there's the empowerment of jessica shepherd there has been like very firm emphasis on we want to pace we want to play with pace we want to not just space the floor we want to space the floor in very specific ways very particular plays we want that very particular ways we want that to be repeatable this was a consistent message from jose going back to training camp post-draft conversations like he's very firm about how we want to space fill those corners etc and so like watching that offense at the high end where you just do not know who's initiating it first and foremost it might be page it might be rk it might be jessica shepherd and then from there you don't know if this is just going to be a basic handoff this might be chicago action this may be some split action and off of that are we staying in the corners are we cutting are we relocating are we setting a flare for someone it is not easy to implement all that stuff in a short amount of time and as we saw what in game two or game three we're like there's selfishness in this locker room it can go haywire very quickly it has not worked and so it's just like the wings to go from where they were last year and all the conversations about coaching last season which i didn't think all of that was fair to be clear but like either way there has been a noticeable shift in what the wings are doing tactically on both ends and they are a playoff team right now so like he was someone that i want to consider the sydney johnson thing i want to hang here too long for them to have if not the law the lowest average age in the league is certainly like bottom two bottom three what do you mean a group this young is the third best defense in the wm that's that is where you plant your flag with the argument for sydney johnson if you're going to make it it is not supposed to look like that for a group this young you already made the sonja case like the way the kiki has developed defensively again we can switch her we can have her at the level if you want to shakira austin has long been one of my favorite bigs to watch defensively when she's locked in because of all the schemes that she can execute as well they are like the valkyries a team that if you even look at the free throw line they're going to be multiple bodies there to swipe at the nail like they and to nail that to that degree no pun intended it's very impressive for a group this young well they got a huge one in the valkyries game i think like shakira was was digging on the nail and i think it was caitlyn chen turning it over and that was a game that i think was a great example of like the the full sydney johnson experience because he will also i get it from the fans like he will also like be like oh you know what we're going to go into a fourth quarter zone against the team that shoots more threes than anybody else in the wnba and georgia amory are going to have to deal with janelle salon like taking up the middle and the valkyries figure that out very quickly i think he tries stuff sometimes in a way that makes people be like what is going on here but for the most part he gets off those things pretty quickly like he's a good in-game adjuster he obviously wants to put his players in multiple different situations and rep different things out which hey at their age you love that's not yeah um but then also like ultimately i do feel like i think that's like part of the reason that mystics have been in close games like i do think that like he's one of those coaches that by the end of the game like you're kind of doing like he's kind of he's got the players on the floor that you want on the floor and they're doing what you want them to do in this matchup yeah and so like one thing it's a journey it is it is absolutely a journey one thing i should have looked up in port-a-pot has a team in the w ever made the playoffs while being the worst offense in the league i do not know because i'll talk about it didn't feel like a thing that's happened but again i just have to go through like all the offensive rating things to see if that's a thing that's happened but like the mystics are on pace to do that they are 15th in offensive rating right now and they are not only the eighth seed there's a little bit of a gap and like they're not that far behind new york liberty right now which probably speaks more to the liberty than anything but like they're just over 500 with an offense that teams are like yeah we don't really care about anyone from the perimeter outside of sonia citron really and it doesn't matter because we're going to mash you in the paint anyway for all the post-ups that we run like they do such a good job of spacing around those post-ups conceptually like we're going to time a corner a cut from the right corner to the left corner as we're setting up a high post look or low post look rather and it's like it's little things like that that i appreciate from Like, he knows what the limitations of the roster are. Like, okay, well, this is how we can create space. space we may not have the shooting that we need but at the very least we can create some space we can go to some empty side actions we can try to unlock some of these drives for cody mcmahon unlock some of these handoffs for sonja citron the way that he's moved her around the board a whole lot of pick and roll a whole lot of off-ball screens for her that volume is ramped up a lot from last year it's like i like i've liked a lot of what he's done this year and the mystics are a playoff team right now yeah there's also like the other thing of it too like when the season started everybody was like oh they need they need bets like that team's gonna fall apart they don't have bets no they don't they don't they don't need bets they have he is the bet he's the bet and michaela onion where who's by the way like when you talk about like defensive representatives if she wasn't hurt earlier in the season like i think i think you'd definitely have to like start talking about her in that fashion as well but um yeah okay wait so who's your actual runner-up uh actual runner-up i honestly i'll probably give it to sydney johnson right now yeah but i'll do it because that's yeah i just think they have like they have like four like they have like five most improved player candidates which we'll talk about next but like i mean the things that he's doing with cla um he came into the league and really i think a lot of people were like hey who is this guy like player development guy for the cleveland cavaliers youngest ever wnba coach he's like 31 years old i think right um he is bringing in this cla approach his constraints led approach which like you know for any basketball fans like you've seen sort of like steph curry dribbling a tennis ball stuff like that people have been doing stuff like this for a while he has decided to make it the entire philosophy yeah of the team and they're doing a lot of stuff that like you could roll your eyes at and say oh that's that feels gimmicky but the players love it like they live by it kendra andrews wrote a really great story um on espn about it and like sarah ashley barker was talking about how like before this she would have never imagined like taking an off-balance three but the whole philosophy of it is like basically like you want to prepare players for unpredictable situations because the game itself is unpredictable and you want to prepare players for unpredictable so they'll have you know like randomly like they'll throw out a pool noodle um like on on players while they're shooting um you know like things like that and it it works like it's working and the players love it they have like carla lee is the most like most improved player candidate bridget carlton is the most improved player candidate sarah ashley barker meg gustafson um like the list kind of goes on and on emily angstler's like really figured it out is like the defensive anchor there bridget carlton i don't know if i i don't like i'm maybe repeating i don't even know like they have that many players that could be a most improved player candidate no i think that is more than fair like i've enjoyed the alex roma experience at least conceptually because like the losses have started to pile up for the fire after like the start and they got out too but it's just like you are so willing to let these players expand and grow you already mentioned the cla piece that works more so off the court more on the practice floor but just in general like the word the way that he's been able to clear space for carla late to have the season that she has like it's a whole lot of let's clear both of those wings so he can drive either way and like just that plus the defensive experimentation that they'll tap into not all of it works overall they have been a bad defense this year but buddy my eyes light up every time it's like someone inbounds the ball there's a fire player in new jersey and then there's a second fire player coming towards you it's like oh we're getting like full court traps on the w side like that you normally see that like end of game we're down four we gotta force a turnover we don't see that in the first quarter i guess that's just like a level of fun for me but he does do a lot so like i appreciate the shout yeah for sure for sure should we talk most improved oh boy how much time you got i know there's so many i will say 15 people that could be like most approved player i feel like we might have similar processes whereas like when we talk about award like okay look let's pull up a list of teams let's just figure out who a candidate from each team would be or candidates and then you kind of whip the list down from there yeah it got it got nasty because i was thinking about most improved and then i thought about like most approved as a concept like okay is this the player that has the most improved player that has the most improved player that has grown the most or improved the most in certain skills this player that has more opportunity like how do i weigh that kind of thing all those things like dovetail with this era that the wnba is in right now where players are getting increased opportunities players are getting increased development as well because of expansion and because of not having to go play overseas as well unrivaled has been great for development like all those things are scaling up for every single player like every like that that's i think that's part of the story of why there are so many that is more than fair i think i ultimately landed on marina mabry at least at least as of today we love the podcast energy at least as of today i landed on marina this is the best season of her career she is helping to keep the toronto temple afloat as they have dealt with injuries literally everywhere at every position this year and i think the thing that's loudest for me in addition to again heading into the recording at the very least 21 points per game 50 on twos 39 on threes on high from the line 3.4 boards 3.6 assists whatever for me watching the connecticut sun last year and seeing how consistently defenses are like we're going to put two on the ball against you one because you're good two we don't trust anybody else on the floor with you right now yeah and so we are just going to blitz you and see how you deal with it and naturally she had some of the worst numbers in the league against that coverage in particular and like it tanked her overall pick and roll efficiency because like she would turn the ball over or she stringed out it the advantage is gone now she has to create late and clock or she might make the right decision and they just missed the shot so like all those factors go into the low number itself but watching the passing growth in particular for her in toronto like some of this is just better contest than connecticut but she is so good at recognizing when that big is going to creep up to either hedge against her or just flat out trap her and she sometimes she'll string it all the way out and drive past it and then generating the advantage that way sometimes it's just a quick bounce pass to her big lead to make a decision sometimes it's right over the top sometimes it's an advance to the wing and she gets back she can attack from there she has done such a good job of processing that in particular and that paired with the mid-range shot making his bat because it fell off a cliff in connecticut last year i think this is the best finishing season of her career as a full-time starter the three-point shooting has been insane especially once you factor in like how deep she's taking some of these and so like you have the bots for a bump but you also have like the very specific like skill development that you can see and you can see that she's got a lot of compared to like what the connecticut run was even what like the chicago one was for her as a playmaker and what it is right now like 3.6 assists doesn't sell like how much she has grown as a passer this year and so no not even remotely that's probably been one of the biggest growth points in her game but i think that um she probably i don't have access to like secondary assists i'm curious what her secondary assist would be because well when you pass from as far out as she does so she's still like one of the like only guards in the league and she's still like one of the only guards in the league that gets like consistently trapped maybe the only guard in the league that gets like really consistently trapped um when you're that far out typically your first pass out is not going to be the one that leads to a bucket right um but the way that toronto runs her offense a lot of it is marina mabry to julie allamond who then makes a decision four on three and it turns into a layup for like an izzy harrison or a niara sabli or somebody like that right like i think she's like been there for a long time and she's been there the engine of this offense in a way that the stats actually don't even fully bear out because of that aspect of it um and like honestly just the gravity in general like she's obviously she's leading the league in gravity and i don't need like i think you said it all honestly you said it all like she's she it's really hard to scale up to from being like a high level role player to a all-star like that's also like just one of the more difficult transitions to make in my in my mind at least just because of like the level of defensive attention and coverage that you get so like yeah i'm i'm i'm all in with mabry um there are then 15 other players that you should talk about here like i'll give you my list i i basically like i you could do first second and third all most improved team and still leave people out so carla late bridget carlton jess ship meg delio um natisha heidemann ray burrell shakira austin melissa smith dominique malanga caitlyn chen janelle salon and then if you want to get cute like neo coffee is in there and if you want to get cute with it camille cardoso with like a side of emily engsler okay so like the portland fire as a concept and yeah like hate it babe which again shout out to alex arama that's fair so you hit on pretty much every name that i had so i'm not going to reinforce too many i wanted to hang a bit on jessica shepherd and melissa smith yeah it's more so just like a hey this has been an awesome season like i think we've talked about this before give me a big that will hit you with screens and can also pass and like i'm just going to be in touch with you guys and give you guys a big shout out so thank you so much for having me and i hope you guys enjoyed it and i'll see you guys next time and i'll see you guys in the next one and i'll see you guys in the next one and i'll see you guys in the next one and i'll see you guys in the next one and i'll see you guys in the next one and i'll see you guys in the next one and i'll see you guys in the next one and i'll see you guys in the next one and i'll see you guys in the next one and so seeing jose fernandez being like actually what if we instead of using you as like a second unit hub sometimes what if you were just the hub of the office like what if we just run a bunch of offense through you what if we just give you a bunch of grab and go freedom and let you just initiate our stuff and so for that to reflect in i think she's the only she's on pace to be the first player in league history average 10 10 and 5 per season i think so yeah which is kind of nuts and it's also like man i sure wish alissa thomas would have average 10 rebounds at some point so she could be there But it's just like that's incredible to me. Like you already hit on the defense point earlier, so I won't hang there. That has been frustrating to say the least in key moments watching Dallas Wings games. But this is why a walk away is so important. So we will leave that there. Melissa Smith, though, what a year this has been for her. The efficiency has jumped through the roof and a lot of that has becomes like similar to Natasha Howard in Indiana and now reinforced in Minnesota as well. She decided, what if I just don't take threes anymore? Like, what if I'm just a low post, right? Yeah, like she's not even really taking mid-range shots like that anymore. Like it's very much I'm a pick and roll or a handball partner for you. I'll roll to the basket and finish or I'm just kind of lurking around the dunker spot. And she just gets baskets and it's been crazy. Like her touch, she almost exclusively uses her right hand on these turnarounds, which stresses me out sometimes. But she just gets it to go. Like the touch is so good. And defensively, she has done a better job. Of doing her job. Yeah. And so for her to be any symbolism, I can't go straight. I can't go all the way to like two way player. Melissa Smith, not yet, but like she is close. It's getting it like she is closer to neutral than she's ever been. And that plus what she's doing offensively for the aces, it deserves to be highlighted. So I don't know if she's going to win. We both pick someone else as of today, but like she at least deserves her flowers for what the season has been. Yeah, absolutely. I'm so impressed by her. Like increased strength. Increased stamina just to be able to get like the easy pickings, you know, it's just been, I mean, her, her, I feel like her life for everything is transformed for her since she went to Las Vegas aces, which is just really cool. Yeah, it's been cool to see. Yeah. I think I'll just give a brief shout out to late. Honestly, just the degree of at which she is getting downhill. She's kind of she's not an unguardable pick and roll player because then we would be having conversations. About her in the Olivia miles realm of things, but she is very tricky. She's I think shooting like a plus 40% on a threes off the dribble or off the pick and roll. I can't remember which one. It's a really good number though. And it's something that was missing in her game last year. Now that she has that downhill threat is just incredible. And the biggest improvement to me, though, is the passing. Like I saw her, but she was way more tunnel vision with the Valkyries. The year before, right? Like she could definitely hit you in the pick and roll, but she was trying to get to the rim. Now the pocket passes and the ability to deal with like multiple kinds of coverage as well. Like she's been pretty good under pressure and the occasions that they do decide to trap, you know, like I think she's she's obviously incredible at attacking switches just like with the offensive bag that she has and like just like the pocket passes on the like, it's just pretty. She plays really pretty basketball and I like watching. Um, and then what else we have got to do, we did everything except for six player of the year, right? The Janelle Salon Award, the Janelle Salon Award, I'm guessing. So you're like, I feel like it is Janelle's like she's in the driver's seat, right? She she just has the car. I think like I on one on a basic level, it just kind of stinks because this should just be like Janelle versus Kennedy. And yeah, don't get to have the Kennedy Carter conversation anymore. With her out of the way, like it is just kind of Janelle. Like what I do when it comes to six player of the year on the WL, the NBA side, like I just want to see your stats when you are reserved. And so like she is among players that have logged at least 15 reserve games. She's first in points. She's second in rebounds in terms of like the plus minus like she's fourth and like one of her teammates is right there with her. So like, yeah. And like her shooting 39% from three on the threes that she takes is insane to me. Just in general, her shot difficulty is insane to me. Once that. I want to make sure I brought up on this podcast when we got here is that second spectrum, they track expected shot quality, which is like where you're taking the shot, how contested it is, what type of shot it is, a bunch of different factors. It spits out a number like what you would expect someone to shoot on the shot diet, etc. Her expected shot quality or expected effective percentage is 41.1. That is pretty easily the lowest among 51 players to take at least 200 shots. Only Megan DeLeo is outperforming that expected shot quality. Hi. At a larger level than Janelle Salon is like outperform by nearly 13 percentage points. It is stupid. It's like it's plus 12.6 for her. It's plus 12.3 for Paige. It's plus 10.6 for Marina. It's plus 10.3 for Bridget Carlton. Those are the only four or I guess five because Megan DeLeo is one. A lot of most improved player candidates in there. Yeah. There you go. And so those are only five outperforming it by 10 percentage points or more. It's just like Janelle's just insane. Like that kind of shot making is nuts. Well, I'll add one too. Like she is making. More guarded catch and shoot players and teams. Oh my gosh. She's making more guarded catch and shoot jumpers than all but I think one player in the league. I can't remember who's number one at this anymore. But she's making them at a pretty high rate as well. And I just think like I think she needs to be in more closing situations for the Valkyries. We are starting to see that more. I think one of the things that happened in the Mystics game was that she actually. Played so long that Nakase had to get her out at some point but it was kind of the wrong time to get her out but we are seeing that shift start to happen and I wonder if there comes a point where she's actually just like in the starting lineup because they are a plus 32 when she replaces Kia Stokes in the starting lineup obviously small sample size but it is a really stark difference and for a team that you know their biggest issue is they don't have a closer. Well, here's this player who is six nine has a high. Least point is incredibly well balanced really strong you will never get her off her spot I don't care who you are you are not getting her off her spot she can turn from both shoulders and she is absolutely fearless like that is your closer in the future. She is so funny like how it's it's kind of Luca like in like I'm just going to load this up slowly and I know you're contesting it but I just don't see your hand I don't really care this is going over your hand anyway. Yeah, I get a lot of Luca. Yeah, for sure. It's it's nice. It's thirty nine and a half percent on threes after at least one dribble which is six among 40 players to take at least 20. That is a four like they're not supposed to be able to do that. She's insane. Yeah, she's a star. I think she's going to be a three level star in the WNBA at some point. I like it. I'd be interested to see like if she ever gets the volume necessary to be that because she could just score in so many different ways. Well, somebody's got to give it to her if it's if it doesn't end up being like she blossoms with the. Alchery is I just think like it's so obvious and she's picked it up on the defensive end of things too right like I think that there is you could have a critique of her last year that she shot a lot of jumpers but she didn't do a lot of other stuff and at her size and her strength that's just inexcusable but the rebounding numbers are way better and she's just gets in the mud a lot more as well so at this point I really am just like what are we doing here more Janelle's I'm never going to be opposed to more Janelle's lungs. I'm right there with you. All right. Who's your runner up? Oh, like I guess like it's Sophie right now. Yeah, kind of by default. Yeah, the scoring the rebounding. She does take on tough defensive assignments like she's been solid defensively this year. She has shot the leather off the ball this year and continues to do so. So like that's kind of number two. Not a player that I thought about and it's like hey if your team was better you probably be more in this conversation. Also, if you played more you'd be more in this conversation can't bring off the bench. Third among reserves and scoring again minimum 15 games. But third and scoring top rebounder obviously leads and blocks 60% on twos 35% on threes for Cambly like she has just been solid when she's been on the court. Yeah. It's another player that should be in the starting lineup, by the way. Well, it's the Sparks front court has been the Sparks as a concept have been. I can't say interesting possibly get more than get into the Sparks again. I completely like yes if she was if she was playing she would absolutely. Be like honestly like like it like yeah, she would definitely be not headlining because Chanel salon is just fantastic, but the things that she's able to do defensively that nobody else in that front court can do they need her now that they have her back. Hopefully she can be a bit of a destable a stabilizing force for their rim protection. She needs to start. I don't know how you don't start your best rim protector when your biggest problem is that you can't defend anybody. But that's a completely different conversation. I also had Sophie as my runner-up a lot of the same reasons for you like she leads Indiana and points in minutes outside of the big three she is probably taking on the best defensive assignment most nights she's smart player like she's like she's she started like she's like really good screens because she's usually got like the weakest defender on her and then like you know either she's going to spray open for a wide open three or she's going to spray open for a wide open three. On those or Kelsey or Caitlin are going to be switched on to like the weakest defender on the court. So there's that end of it. She's shooting the leather off the ball like you said and honestly, that's another player on like I wonder if at some point we see her in the starting lineup as well because like I wouldn't want to give up on Lexi. So I understand why like step white is probably just holding on with the Lexi thing from like a psychological standpoint, but I could I mean if they're just so thin right, but I think that like if you get to a place. For Ty Harris, who's playing a lot better now, if she's leading that second unit, then maybe you can start moving some things around. I think that's fair. I think that's fair. I was about to say. I guess the broader question that I had for you before we get out of here, are there any players that you wanted to shout out before we leave, across any award, that you wanted to talk about that we maybe didn't get to because I had a conversation flow? Dude, honestly, Brianna Stewart was one player that I really was upset that I couldn't get on this list. So, no, I think I'm good. What about you? Okay. I guess I wanted to circle back to AZ real quick. I think we both just kind of acknowledged she is the runner-up for Rookie of the Year. Right, yeah, yeah. And she's having a good season. But it's just like 39% on threes, 59% on twos, nearly three stocks per game as a rookie. And when you hear something like that, you would think it's more of the I'm gambling a bunch off the ball and I can just rack up these numbers and I'm still a neutral or bad defender. With the other stuff. With AZ, it's just. It's like me anticipating the passing lanes, honestly. Like, that's the part. Yeah. Like, oh my God. Like, you're so smart. Like, you're so ahead of the play. Yeah, like with AZ. No, I was just. No, just to bounce off what you said. Like, she is. She has such good field defensively. And like, you saw that at UConn last year, too. So, like, it shouldn't be a surprise that she's that. I'm surprised that it's at this level this early. Like, there's just an adjustment to the speed, the talent, the spacing, et cetera. But, like, she's so good at the nail. She's the low man. She's really good at flying in, rotating on time. It's a mix of. Sometimes I'll take the charge. Sometimes I'll actually contest her shot. Sometimes I'll strip down before you get the shot up. And that's a steal. Or a block, which. We need this. We need a separate category for strips. We really do. That's my basketball complaint that I will log with this podcast. I think the last time it was like. The Chelsea Gray stat? Yeah. I think I'm going to make this a staple of whenever I'm on this podcast. I think the last one is like, what is a screen? This one is like, we need strips in the box store. Well, we need to do a full podcast that's just that and Max. There we go. We're going to complain, Max. It's fine. But we need something separate for that. But either way, AZ's low man work is really good. Her size is underrated. Even coming into the draft, I think there was this perception that she is a shooter who can't defend. And I think that was always really unfair to her. She's big and strong. I remember when I went to the final four, I was like, whoa. And that was two years ago. And her. Her workout videos are infamous. So she's really, really strong. And she's 6'1 with a good wingspan. I don't. How surprised should we also be? It's one of those things where. I don't know. Shifting to the W is just hard on a very basic level. So even if you were XYZ in college, you just have to get used to that. And I will say to the. But hasn't that changed? Some players are really coming in and like Sonia Citron, right? Like. Yeah. All defense, second year in the league. Flasher Johnson, fantastic defender. AZ Fudd, fantastic defender. I think for bigs, it's still like, you know, you get your welcome to the W for sure. But we're seeing more players come in and make a defensive impact right away. Yeah. Like, I think it's trending the right way. I think if you get like granular with it, there are some things like, ooh, this deal needs to get to a certain level. And that's where like with AZ and the defense in particular, because I've seen a lot of like AZ depoy, AZ all defense. I'm just like, that might be a bit rich for me right now. At the very least, the depoy stuff is rich for me right now. Well, she's certainly their most important defender, which is, I think, a real like indication of where Dallas is at defensively as well. Yeah. I think between her and Awok, like those are the two that you just need them on the floor to foster a competitive defense. It's a testament to both of them. But also it's like, why am I relying on Awok who just came back plus AZ who just got here to clean up so much of our work off the ball? It shouldn't be. But that's not, yeah, it should not be that. And so like depoy stuff is way too rich for me. All defense, I think you have to at least write her name down as a candidate and like evaluate the case closer based on what she's done. So like I do want to give her that credit. Like the off ball stuff is good. The on ball, like I'm still, hey, what does the screen navigation look like with some of the dry containment? But like again, she's a rookie. She shouldn't be, she shouldn't be defending some of the players she's asked to defend just out. Who do you, who would you take defensively between her and Flage right now? I think that's, between those two, that's an easy, easy for me, I think. Okay. And like, I probably shouldn't say easy because that's disrespectful, Flage. I think for me and just the way that I view defense, the off ball stuff just holds more value, value for me. Yeah. Both to be where you're supposed to be and also if you can clean up messes or event create on top of that, then it pops for me. I think Flage is a better on ball defender. I think AZ is a much better off ball defender. Yeah. I know they're very different defenders. Like I would give Flage like the slight edge, to be honest. I think, I just, I just think her on ball impact is, is pretty incredible. And I think she's able to recover into plays. I think they're, I think they're different, right? Like I think if AZ gets beat on a pick and roll, like she's going to switch onto the big and like communicate and potentially get a steal because her communication and movement and rotations are faster than like the offense could comprehend. And I think with Flage, it's like she gets beat, she's going to try to get back in the play. Try to get the block, yeah. And more often than not, like she kind of will. Yeah. Different but I just wanted to get your thoughts on that. All right. You guys, thank you so much for hopping on. It's always just so good to like, just get to get in the weeds with you on these things. And like you brought, you brought some stats that I'll be thinking about for a while. Like the Gabby Williams and Sonia Citron versus the All-Stars and all of that and the expected shot value. Like I really, I just, I just appreciate what you bring to the table. Well, thank you. Likewise. I appreciate you. Always a pleasure to be on. We got to, we got to do the home and home or I guess the home and home and home and home at some point. Got to get you on to Dunkin' Spots when we chop it up. We are, we are approaching episode 500, which is kind of nuts to me. Oh my God. Yeah. Wow. We've been podcasting for a very long time. What episode are you at now? I think Fridays is, I think Fridays is going to be 499. Oh my gosh. Okay, wait. So this is happening like next week. Mm-hmm. Oh my gosh. Wow. So we are, we're getting on up there for someone that generally does not like talking. The fact that I've done 500 episodes of a podcast is nuts to me. But that wasn't it. So I did just want to say I appreciate you. I appreciate the show. I appreciate the invite as always. It's always a pleasure to just dump the brain a little bit. It's fun. Just rock out. It's fun. I love a notebook dump. Congratulations, man. That is dope. Thank you. That's amazing for you and Steve. You guys honestly, on the WNBA and the NBA side, you guys are fantastic. Like, you know, everybody knows that. Like, you're changing, change the shape of discourse in a way that I think people really appreciate. And you're always trying to teach people about the game, which is awesome. So, hey, yeah, I will be I will be locked and loaded for that Tuesday episode. You could make it about anything. Like, you could troll. Like, you could make it about You could, I don't know. You could, like, make it all about, like, some fringe Miami Heat player on the heels of on the heels of LeBron James potentially making an announcement. I would still tune in. There you go. 45 minutes. On why Pella Larson is going to be the one to convince LeBron James to join the Miami Heat. When me and my roommate first moved in together, like, we're both big hoopseds. And, like, we had this moment where, like, we truly touched God together where we spent, like, 10 minutes on his laptop on Pella Larson's basketball reference page. And it was really one of the most, like, men only want one thing. And it's fucking disgusting. And you see how unplanned that is? That is bring up Pella Larson. This is the beauty. I was trying to remember his name. I'm not going to lie to you. That's why I said some random. So, I think we were locked in. We were locked in. Look, guys. That's awesome, dude. Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah. Appreciate you. Appreciate Stephon Anderson. As always, our super producer makes things look and sound good around here. And we will be back after All-Star. Hope everybody is a fun, safe All-Star. And we're going to be jumping, like, pretty much right into the trade deadline after. So, things are picking up. Stay tuned. Have a good week, Tim. Anything is possible. The Mosquito Ball is the incredible true story of four college football stars who walked away from NFL careers after Pearl Harbor to enlist in the Marines. From Friday Night Lights director Peter Berg and starring Nicholas Gallatin, Bill Skarsgård, Ray Nicholson, and Tom Francis comes a story of brotherhood and sacrifice. Four men who traded the gridiron for the battlefield. The Mosquito Ball in theaters October 30th.