Speaker 1Welcome one, welcome all. Welcome back to the James Kennedy podcast. Yes, it is that time of week again. Can you believe it? Where is the time going? Welcome back, man. It's good to have you. And I hope you've been enjoying the new thing I started a few weeks ago called the Monday Mix on Spotify, where basically every Monday morning, I update my playlist on Spotify with all of the kick-ass awesome tunage that I've been listening to that week. Man, there are some bad boys on that playlist. Check it out. And start your week right every Monday by cranking that bad boy out full tilt. You can find it pinned to my artist page on Spotify at James Kennedy, and you can also get it. It's all over my socials as well. So if you're not following me on my socials, you know, what are you doing with your life, really? James Kennedy UK on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Get on it. That's where all the good stuff is. And once you've done that, you can go and click on the link to the Monday Mix and go and bathe in the sonic bliss of fuzzy guitars and pounding drums. Don't tell me I'm not good to you guys. Now, today we're talking about a subject which I've been curious about for many, many years. But sadly, it's a subject which has become a lot closer to me personally. As some of you may know, I recently, very recently, lost my father. It's literally only been about two months since he passed. So the subject of today's conversation goes beyond intellectual curiosity for me now from the vantage point of distance. It's actually something which is very close and resonates quite intensely with me now. So I don't know if it's going to pan out today. But the subject of today's chat is going to be assisted dying. We're going to be talking about death, terminal illness, assisted dying, and whether it's high time that we had assisted dying in the UK, as many countries around the world already do. I appreciate this is going to be difficult listening for some people who've also been close to this subject. But I feel that I owe it to people who've also been through this experience, or maybe not. So I'm going to be going through it. I feel like I owe it to those people to have this conversation because it will be from a perspective of somebody who has very recently been through it in his own family, rather than intellectual ponderings from somebody who hasn't been close to the actual emotional reality of what it's like to go through this. I think the conversation around assisted dying is a very, very important one to have. And for any listeners who may be going through a terminal illness themselves, or in their own right, or in their own right, or in their own right, or in their own family, I hope that you may find some comfort in this conversation. And I can promise you that it will be handled with sensitivity. And as I said, it will be coming from the perspective of somebody who's just very recently been through this themselves. So I'm on your side. Okay, so with that said, let's welcome onto the show today's guest. Today, we are very lucky to be joined by the awesome Nathan Stilwell from the campaign group, My Death, My Decision, who've been campaigning for assisted dying to become legal in the UK. This is a subject that I've been really interested in for a long time. So I'm super grateful to be able to have Nathan's time today. Mr. Stilwell, how are you doing, sir? I'm very good.
Speaker 2And thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1Oh, it's a pleasure. I've been looking forward to speaking with you all week. So thanks so much for doing this. This is an issue that is very sensitive and delicate, and will touch a lot of raw nerves with people, I think, for very understandable reasons. So before we jump into the issues surrounding this subject, I suppose we should start by establishing what exactly is assisted dying? Yes,
Speaker 2and very good question. So assisted dying essentially is a person, we're talking about a person who is either terminally ill, or incurably, intolerably suffering, ending their own lives on their own terms in a place of their choosing. And there are a number of ways that we can approach this issue. So I'm going to start with you, Mr. Stilwell, and I'm going to start with you, Mr. Stilwell. So what are some of the conditions under which somebody would consider this then?
Speaker 1Sure. So obviously, this depends
Speaker 2by the person, and I think that's so much why the campaign is called My Death, My Decision, because it's all about personal choice, and it's all about what your situation is. And that's something I want to emphasize, is it's all about what's a reason for an assisted death for me would not be the reason for assisted death for you. But one of the fundamental ones we talk about is pain, pain and suffering. So there is quite a few people in the UK who are in a position where they are experiencing daily and unbearable pain and suffering. So that could be people with, you know, example, like people with skin cancers, or people with degenerative conditions like motor neurone disease. And they are essentially experiencing like a quality of life that they do not that they don't agree with that just isn't satisfactory for them. Yeah. And so there is very good, you know, we have a very good health system here in the UK. And there are, you know, and there are drugs that they can take. But we've definitely found with the people that we've spoken to, you know, a lot of these people might already be on the legal limits of morphine or pain relief drugs. And they are still experiencing a life that's incredibly uncomfortable and incredibly painful. So that would probably be the first reason. Another thing to talk about really, and again, this goes back to the individual is dignity. So a lot of people are potentially living a life that they don't think is it. It's dignified enough for them. So to the campaigners that we we have supported, have both had, you know, conditions like severe paralysis, where they haven't been able to move from from the neck down. Or one of the most famous cases we supported was the case of Tony Nicklinson. And he had locked in syndrome, where he essentially couldn't move any part of his body. So after suffering stroke. And again, that's it's all up to the individual, you know, some people, who would want to continue living in that situation, and they might have the mental fortitude to do so and want to do so. And other people would say this is not the quality of life that I that I would want and I would want to continue with. So very, very broadly speaking, those are those are the two groups of people who would want assisted death.
Speaker 1Right? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, I should mention sort of early on in the conversation that I recently lost my father to a long two year battle with several different types of cancer. And it was eventually brain cancer that took him he was given six months to live in October. And he was a very, a man's man, he was a strong guy, he was very proud guy. And he tended to make a light of everything. So I hope I'm not going to be making light of this issue by repeating what he said. But he actually said to us, once he was diagnosed as being terminal, you know, once I get to the point where I can't, you know, go to the toilet by myself or walk or speak properly, you know, which was difficult to hear, but he meant it, you know, but unfortunately, as a family, then we then had to witness him going through to that point and beyond, you know, to the point where he had no dignity. And I know how difficult that must have been for him, as a proud, strong, old school man's man, you know. And just as you mentioned, he, you know, he, his existence basically was surviving on tons of medication and morphine, he spent most of his time asleep. He, by the end, he was unable to go to the toilet by himself and get out of bed. And as a family, it's the most difficult thing to watch that happened to your loved one, especially when you know what their wishes were and the sort of person that they were beforehand. And I honestly think that my dad was the sort of person, you know, he was not religious, he didn't have faith, he was very much a man of science and stuff. He's very rational, practical kind of guy. I honestly believe that if assisted dying was an option for him, I think it's something that he would have factored into his plans earlier. And I think that's something that he would have factored into his plans earlier. On whilst he still had the faculties to be able to do that. So for me, this is an issue that is that is very fresh. And although it's difficult to sort of talk about it, I think I can speak from firsthand experiences as somebody that has seen a family member go through that, that it's something that we probably would have, I mean, if he, if he, if it was his wishes to do so, we would have honored it. But as if, but it's something that we as a family would have agreed with as well, because it's that, it's that distinction between keeping some body alive, but having no quality of life at all, you know? So I can totally relate to it. And I'm totally on board with the need for assisted dying. And I think it's such a shame that families and individuals have to go through what we've just been through and what my dad just went through. When I know that in other countries around the world, they do actually have legalized assisted dying. Could we talk about some of the countries that do have it and whether it is a success there and whether it is something that is used a lot, or is it, you know, something that people tend to not use, even though they've got the option to?
Speaker 2Absolutely. But the first thing I want to say, James, is, you know, for me, like I have, I listened to stories like that nearly every day, you know, it's part of my job and, and your dad's story still affects me. Like I still find that really difficult to hear and, and to, to know that people in the UK are going through things like this. And it's something I'm sure we'll talk about, but like, it's not just the person who's going, you know, who's dying, who's experiencing that. their family members and it is their friends and their loved ones and I've heard plenty of stories like yours James and it's just heartbreaking to hear about and it really kind of it really does drive me and puts passion into the campaign that I work on because I just don't understand how the people in the government cannot listen to that and not feel the empathy that I'm feeling and not feel what you went through and what your whole family went through and what your your dad went through it it does strike me as totally kind of barbaric that that that's something that your father wouldn't at least be in the choice and I would encourage you to look at the story of Tony Licklinson because I think he was described exactly as your dad was described before his stroke he was such a he was described as such a kind of charismatic and and you know boisterous person who had such a personality and as his condition changed all he wanted was the choice to go out on his own in terms and I think there are so many stories like that so thank you very much for sharing I think talking about other places in the world there are many other places in the world that have very different different rules and I think that's something for the UK that we need to discuss this kind of there are these different international models essentially of assisted dying and which one do we want for us so the first one to talk about is it would be it would be Oregon so states in the in the US and they have a law that allows people who have six months left to live to have an assisted death and so that these people go through kind of a their doctor needs to sign off that the doctor believes that they have six months left to live they have to go through certain evaluations there's a cooling off period as well so you know that they have to write and it has to come from them that they want an assisted death and then there'll be a certain period where they have time to contemplate and think about that and then they can withdraw at any time and you know you can all of these jurisdictions everywhere in the world you can always withdraw you know literally until the the buttons pushed or the drugs are in justice right so there's always that kind of withdrawal and yeah it's Oregon's had it for I think nearly 20 years now and the the numbers of people who are seeking this assisted death has kind of several steadily increased but then plateaued and I think it it's because these people now know that the option is available for them and the longer these these things are ingrained in society the longer they become part of the conversation that people have with doctors and you know with their health care professionals and things like that so the first one is Oregon second obviously is Switzerland and that's the one that spoke about the most because Switzerland's one of the only countries in the world that um allows people from other countries to to apply for assisted death in and there are various um kind of organizations that um that run that sort of the most famous is Dignitas but there are other organizations and again it's a very similar process and it's a really quite long lengthy process and it's something that's worth mentioning that I'm sure we can get into later is it costs about 10 grams to go to Switzerland for a UK citizen so obviously that's incredibly prohibitive for an enormous amount of population of the UK I can say for a fact that I don't have 10 grand in my bank and I know don't know many people who do yeah um and again it's a process of so for Swiss nationals and you know for Brits they'd have to have a doctor sign off on the state of their condition they'd have to have a another healthcare professional look at that that'd be again it would have to be written consent that you you know that you write in yourself this is me this is what I want you then have an evaluation there's there's you know quite a few um kind of like hoops to jump through it's not it's by no means a simple process and then a third country I just want to talk to you about briefly is Canada and so Canada has essentially the law that I think the UK should go for so Canada does not it's not just limited to people who have six months left to live it's anybody who has uh an incurable and what they deem to be unbearable condition and again there's lots of safeguards again that there's a there's a process but what we're starting to see in Canada is is really interesting because there's things that I've heard about such as the you know a priest coming to the assisted death and performing the last rites at the assisted death is part of their healthcare service and it's you know it and it's part of the kind of national conversation that they've had and they're talking about it and I think it's important to note that I don't feel that we're having this conversation in the UK I think we can have this kind of stiff upper lip when it comes to talking about death and it's not something that we discuss with family members it's not something you hear really discussed that much on the news and that's the that we need to get into where we're just able to have these frank open and honest conversations about the end of our lives because I know it's so cliche to say but it's you know death is the one thing that we will share it's the one certainty that's going to happen in our lives
Speaker 1so what is the Canadian model then in terms of um is it a drug that's administered is it a chemical thing because I know that in Switzerland I mean there was that big news thing wasn't there where they had that a mobile kind of um device that a person could sit in and I think that was a chemical airbound chemical type of thing wasn't it um I'm guessing they're not they're not using things like that on the health service in Canada so what is the um what is the process in practice
Speaker 2yes and I think I'm not 100% sure if the device is being used yet in Switzerland I think there might have been a bit of a bit of an article that kind of ran away with itself but in um Canada they call it medically assisted aid in dying so they call it made and it's either a drug that you or it's this kind of medically assisted thing so it will be you know for example like potentially like an IV bag or something intravenous that um that the doctor then you know with your consent and after again this all this this this long process either pushes a button or you know plunges a syringe and this intravenous um drug is introduced into your body that puts you to sleep and then causes causes death right so it's
Speaker 1a so it's painless so you see you've got to sleep for you know like a general aesthetic
Speaker 2and then yeah then then it kind of takes hold and I I'm not you know I think it it kind of shuts down bodily organs and that's how the the death is is um is caused I think one of the point things to mention there is a lot of people do opt for the the doctor to to to be the one that's pushing that button so it's a conversation we have to have with doctors with our own doctors and obviously with these these medical professions as well and I think another point to make here is is people bring up you know the ethics of that the the doctor being involved and something very important to mention is in all of these countries that doctors have an opt-out clause if a doctor doesn't want to administer you know end-of-life drugs and they will never have to and they will never you know there's it would be unthinkable to force doctors to so it's very much that that it's almost kind of a different part of of of medicine just as you know we have a lot of people who are in the hospital who are in the hospital who have gynecology and pediatrics and all this kind of stuff that there'll be health care professionals who have focused on for example end-of-life care and and and end-of-life drugs
Speaker 1all right so just to reiterate from what you're saying then under the Canadian model which is the one that you favor and think could be adopted here this isn't something which as it is often portrayed you know in the uh the right-wing press or whatever as being something that it could just be willy-nilly doled out you know oh we're all going to be killing ourselves every time we you know get depressed for a day or whatever under the NHS and all this nonsense this is actually something which has got quite a thorough administrative process and has to be signed off by a medical professional and the patient has to have approvable terminal illness or an illness which is giving them an unlivable unbearable quality of life yeah that patient can then change their mind at any point in time and they can then change their mind at any point right up until the day of the procedure and this is not something which can be doled out willy-nilly um or exploited in any way so there's
Speaker 2there's actually two big points that we need to discuss when it comes to this and I think the first thing that is worth mentioning when when you mentioned about you know this is the fact that right now in the UK we have no laws we have no legislation which means we have no safeguards we have no processes we have nothing and which means that people will take their lives at the end of their lives into their own hands and there are you know that there was a there was a study by the um office of national statistics that looked into the the suicide rates of people who had had a um a terminal diagnosis and they found that these people were twice as likely to commit suicide so if you had you know if you were given a diagnosis of terminal cancer or a terminal illness or motor neuronal disease you're incredibly more likely to take your own life and take these these matters into your own hands and when we talk about that you know that's on that there's no safeguards if you're taking your life into your own your own hands true the these sorts of deaths are you know often very traumatic there's the the case of of max mosley who was the the formula one boss who shot himself after receiving a terminal diagnosis there's no doctor he spoke to about that that's traumatic for for him and his entire family and he should have had the the choice at the end of his life so when we're talking about you know could could people take advantage of this system or could there be any coercion or anything like that but when you're talking about people taking their lives into their own hands without any assistance as it is right now there's so much there's so much many problems around that it's awful that people can't discuss these options with their families they can't discuss these options with the doctors there are no safeguards there are no things so even if in the uk we you know decided to have the weakest safeguards in all the world they would still be a million times stronger than what we've got right now which is absolutely nothing at all
Speaker 1that's interesting i didn't know that so it's not that it's illegal it's that there's just never been any kind of conversation around this issue with regards to its legality or otherwise
Speaker 2no so here's another point this is when we're going down a bit the rebel so again suicide is not illegal in the uk completely and and that's where you know it even slips into my own vocabulary i sometimes say commit suicide and you cannot commit suicide because suicide is not a crime taking your own life into your own hands is not a crime right so crime in the uk is assisting or encouraging uh a death and essentially the reason why that's causing so much problems is it means that doctors can't be involved in any way shape or form until family can't be involved in any way shape or form and it means if the police suspect that your family or your doctor or anyone is involved in any way you can go to jail for up to 14 years right so what we've seen is we've seen people accompany people to sass for example or to switzerland and you know that that's traumatic that's a that's a difficult process for them and there's a grieving process around any sort of death we understand that and then they return to the uk they're arrested the moment they land a heathrow that you know they're chucked into a prison cell they're interrogated these people should be grieving something that's incredibly difficult moment at this time the time they should be treated with suspicion and and and you know it's just such a horrible situation so yeah that that's the difference here is that it's actually it's the assisting or encouraging that's the crime in the uk
Speaker 1right okay and what about the public then do we have any idea whether the the british public supports the idea of assisted dying because i know most people don't really want to talk about death or think about it i mean it's something that we carry through our lives as humans isn't it that kind of existential weight that we all carry through our lives and we don't really ever want to think about our own mortality or indeed that of our loved ones it's just that it's just an uncomfortable subject to have to think about but unfortunately we have to think about it at some point whether we like it or not so have there been any studies on this because i can't imagine it's a study that a lot of people would want to do as it is such an emotional subject but has does that data exist as to whether the public actually support this in the uk or
Speaker 2not yes and i mean it's such you're right it's an emotional issue you're you're right that it brings up you know so many ethical questions that again as i said we have to discuss we have to talk about death but there have been so many you know opinion polls that it's hard to even point to which ones because there's so many the best we've seen is 90 of the public support assisted dying under some circumstances i mean that's a huge population that's a huge percentage but i mean there's so many studies that happen all the time the worst one i've seen is 70 of the public you know you know just take it under so even if you take the worst polls that we've got if you take the worst opinion polls there's still an overwhelming support in the uk for assisted dying and this is something where politics hasn't caught up those we're not seeing those same percentages when we're talking to mps and that's fundamentally wrong we're in a democracy that should be the will of the people and the british people have overwhelmingly consistently voted and spoken about and shown that they support assisted dying
Speaker 1that is amazing i had no idea man so why are we not seeing that reflected in the political class then once again see
Speaker 2that's such a good question and it leads me down a road where i obviously i can't talk for for any mp and i can't talk talk for politicians there's a few there's obviously a religious sentiment that happened that we that we have to talk about that that people for their religious convictions you know would not want to support assisted death or i sometimes feel that maybe these politicians do not want to upset religious communities when when they feel they don't have to you know and even then i there's there's opinion polls of you know the first question is are you religious or do you consider yourself religious and then the second question is you know how do you feel about assisted dying or would you support assisted dying in the uk and we found that 80 percent of people who say they're religious would support assisted dying oh wow there's a there's an opinion piece in the the church times today by reverend canon rosie harper talking about how the church of england is out of date with its um with its members because there is a christian reason for supporting assisted dying you know the bible taught there are there are suicides in the bible there's death and resurrection in the bible you know a lot of religious texts talk about death and life and there's a religious quote which i'm not going to be able to quote but you know exactly but there's along the lines of of death is better than a miserable life so the i think that not only are kind of maybe these and he's a little bit out of touch with their constituents but also the church to an extent is out of touch with its members so there is that religious element that i think can um can stop this change the law and i also think i don't think mps or i don't think politicians in general would either would really admit that they're not going to be able to quote you know exactly but there's along the lines of of death is better than a miserable life so the i think that not only are kind of maybe these and he's a little bit out of touch with their constituents but also the church to an extent is out of touch with its members so there is that religious elements that i think can um can stop this change the law and i also think i don't think mps or i don't think politicians in general would i would rarely admit openly that that's the reasoning they're talking about that being said in the most recent debates or um there's one of the one of them are you know the most um ardent opponent to persist dying as an mp called danny kruger and you may know his name because he's recently stood up in the in the parliament and said he doesn't believe women should have autonomy over their bodies or he doesn't believe that's the right and we've had other mps and you know we had there was a there was a westminster hall debate on monday and that debate is was the good moment you know highlights and the issues we're talking about but the debate won't lead to any votes or changes in the law it was kind of just a bit of generic debate and there was mp there who spoke about pro-life and you know talking about how he supports the life of the fetus just as much as he supports the life of the pensioner and again there's a kind of evangelical you know christ really old school christian beliefs that are so out of touch yeah with the the population and again brings up this idea of bodily autonomy like that our organization is called my death my decision because it's my death it's my decision it's my body it's my choice it's fundamentally i don't understand how these mps think that they can they can determine the right of you know your father to make choices over the end of his life or me to make the choice throughout the end of my life like i'm the person who knows my body i'm the person who knows what i'm feeling i should be able to make these
Speaker 1decisions that's really interesting and of course yeah it does cross over into the um the abortion debate as well doesn't it which i know is very hot at the moment as well and yeah i i suppose these religious values have traditionally informed our sort of social and moral values haven't they throughout the ages and it's interesting that that is still there's still that hangover into the modern age that we live in now where many of our laws are still predicated on those religious values um i didn't realize that that would be the reason for it though i mean i i thought that they would have evolved beyond that i thought this was more of an ethical or um there was some political reason for it but from from what from what you've seen in your experiences it is literally just a belief system issue no
Speaker 2there are other issues there but but my personal view is that that that that is the main hang-up you know the british political system is an old school system it is reluctant to change we we we have you know a conservative government with conservative mps and you know some some people might argue well that's the crux of uh conservatism is you know keeping things the same and keeping things to status quo and and this kind of you know back to our church of england roots but even then i make the argue that the the c in conservatism you know stands for choice conservatives are all about the fact that it shouldn't be nanny states you know that's what that was all on about and that's what conservatives still believe that the conservative government is a conservative government that's the idea that people should have choices and it shouldn't be this you know big government that chooses makes these choices for the people or that's the people who should be making the choices themselves so even then you know that there's a there's a conservative um group in parliament which is called you know conservatives to choice and they they support assisted dying so there aren't always these these clear-cut lines along along politics and along policies yeah yeah and that's another thing that's worth mentioning is that the governments have always said that any vote on assisted dying would be what's called a conscious vote so the government wouldn't say you should vote this way or you should vote that way every single mp would vote according to themselves so it is really a case of changing hearts and minds of each of these individual mps
Speaker 1i suppose then it comes back down to the same as it does with every issue we talk about on this podcast which is down to public pressure so if the constituents are making this issue priority with their with their representatives and being consistent in reinforcing that over and over and over again that as it stands at the moment would be the only way that we stand any chance of changing the conversation within parliament
Speaker 2absolutely absolutely and this is you know that it's one of the reasons i'm part of this campaign is it feels sometimes a bit like a david versus goliath campaign you've got to think about the people who you know the majority of people who are talking about assisted dying and who want assisted death themselves are an older generation you know that they're potentially unwell or sick or you know towards the end of their their lives and these are the people mounting this campaign you know i work every single day with people who have either you know want an assisted death themselves or have had a family member who's experienced you know excruciating excruciating and painful death and those are the people who are leading this campaign like this is a grassroots campaign i would happily show everyone you know where we get all of our funding from and we're a partnership-based organization and we're fighting to change a law and we're fighting against as well i think it's worth bringing up that there are groups who are adamantly against assisted dying who are funded through you know evangelical churches in the u.s and through through really kind of um what's the word where it's just like behind closed doors you know yeah if you go on our website or if you look up any kind of assisted dying group you can find out them who's funding them who's working for them and they've
Speaker 1got a lot of money those groups man
Speaker 2yeah and if you go against if you go on any of these kind of they call them uh you can't see me doing air quotes but pro-life groups you know these groups that they're against bodily autonomy and back to these old values they never include who's working for them they never include right where their funding's from you know this is it's so much of the little man trying to stick it up to to these big you know to government and to these big big organizations and it very much feels like we're the dark horse here and we are there is going to be changed and it's going to happen and it's and the change is happening off the backs of so many amazing campaigners who have you know who who have been facing incredibly difficult times in their own lives yeah and have somehow found the energy to campaign for a change in law
Speaker 1it's amazing that people do that but it's such a shame that it always has to come down to that isn't it i mean every week on this podcast we're discussing a different issue and it always seems to come down to the same conclusion the david and goliath feeling is one which it seems to be universal for all of the campaigners that we've had on the um on the podcast and ultimately the main barrier to progress on any particular given issue is the government and the powers that control them and those powers are very powerful we know whether you're talking about the you know the religious right or the pharmaceutical industry or you know whatever it may be you know these powers have tentacles deep in to the seats of governments everywhere yeah and when you factor in the ideological leanings of the political class that you mentioned earlier it can seem like an immovable object but as you said you know the support on the streets is at least 70 to 90 percent support for this issue and i always take heart from the fact that you know the the people seem to be about a hundred years ahead of the government and ultimately that is where change has only ever come from it's is people power every significant change we've ever had has come from that so whilst it might seem impossible at times it's very encouraging to know that there is that support base there amongst the majority of the
Speaker 2population yeah absolutely and i think the case the way i see it i'm fundamentally not missed it is it's now a case of when not not if like the tide of change is with us there's so much public support it's got to happen because we've got to be helping these people you know there's so many people who who just need this choice at the end of their lives and and we've we've got to work as a you know as an empathetic society i don't know how anyone can listen to some of the stories that i've heard and not just fundamentally support changes in the law well
Speaker 1speaking of personal stories then is there a story that you could share with us from your your experience in of working in this area that would help to illustrate what it is that you're fighting for here and why this is so important is there a story of a family or a person that's actually been through this process of assisted dying that would really help people to understand on a personal level on a human level what it is that you're fighting for or is that like a really broad question no
Speaker 2no no and that that's a good question and so you know this concept it is really difficult to talk about this concept of a good death yes it's not something that we we would ever talk about and it's so difficult to think about but you know everybody if they if you if you do take a moment to think about yourself like and how you'd want the end of your life to be it's different for a person you know i know i have a i have an extended family member who wants to tie on the tennis court she wants to win the final points and wants to collapse right there because that's where she loves her life and that's what she wants to do beautiful and you know it's different different for every single person but a lot of people would say surrounded by family you know surrounded by this and so one one the person you should google and look up is called dawn voice cooper so she had an assisted death in switzerland last year and the headlines if you google it are it goes champagne a cigarette and her favorite song and those were dawn voice cooper's final moments she was surrounded by friends she was drinking her favorite champagne she invited journalists with her to kind of to help this campaign essentially but said look this is what it can be like and you know it was still a tearful moment it was still difficult for the for the friends that were with her there but it was also beautiful yeah and the the way she was she you know she describes the trees and the lights and the the occasion and i think that's where we need to go back to when we're talking about death is it's not necessarily in you know in a hospice or a hospital room it's surrounded by friends and family she she said she was reminiscing and talking about old times and laughing and and it wasn't you know it wasn't how we think about death and how we would would imagine death so that's definitely i think someone for you to look up and to make your own decision about but it's something that i would point to and say this is what it could be and as beautiful as it was and we want to talk about it there's something sad in the fact that she was in switzerland well why are we why are we saying you know why why are we outsourcing our compassion to another country that doesn't feel very british that doesn't feel very right that we'd say right you know we're going to outsource empathy to another country that that's wrong dawn should have been able to die in the uk that's absolutely
Speaker 1beautiful thank you for sharing that with us because i think that perfectly illustrates the concept of a good death owning one's death so that's dawn voice cooper for anybody that wants to go and check that out i would i would thoroughly recommend it because death is coming for all of us whether we like it or not and i think taking ownership of that is mature it shows strength and bravery and is inspirational to it to everybody else because death is also not the thing we need to worry about it's it's having a long slow painful undignified slow death yeah and i can only talk from my own experience recently with my father i mean you know by the end my father's all he all he wished for was that he would go you know peacefully in his sleep and thank god for one of a better phrase that is how it happened in the end but i can honestly say you know by the time that day came it was actually a relief for us which is so sad that we should feel that way but seeing him as he was you know he wasn't cognizant for a long time you know he was essentially just being kept alive by medication and for what you know he had no quality of life he was undignified it was completely traumatizing for us as a family whereas we could have had the experience that you just described in dorm voice cooper's story where before he got to the point where he was unable you know we could have had a final meal you know a movie night you know a glass of wine reminiscing say i'll say i i love yous and our um our uh thank yous and everything and um and it could have gone that way instead you know which would have been um much more special and beautiful and a much more dignified way to go out with a smile on your face feeling good with your loved ones smiling around you holding your hand as you say goodbye to the world you know rather than um what it was like i'm actually more traumatized by my father's final few months than him passing you know him him passing as i said was actually a relief as much as i hate to say it because we couldn't bear seeing seeing him degenerate anymore so i thank you for sharing that story I think what Dawn and her family have done there is brave, beautiful, and perfectly illustrates what it is that yourself and so many others are campaigning for on this issue.
Speaker 2Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's something to, you know, she is a hero that's so brave that she could share her story like that. And also, you know, it's not just about, it's never just about the people who are dying. It's about the people surrounding them. And I mean, it should be, you know, these things should be family occasions. They should be surrounded by friends and loved ones. And we should just be so much more open as a society about talking about this and what people want at the end of their lives.
Speaker 1100%. So could you tell us a bit about the group that you work for, My Death, My Decision, what it is that you guys are doing and what is it that people can do to get involved and to help?
Speaker 2So one of the things that we're doing right now is we're calling for an inquiry. And we think that's the right thing to do. So an inquiry would basically look at all the evidence. It would probably do a consultation. So they probably ask the public their views. And essentially what we think would happen was it would allow politicians and MPs to be able to see all the evidence in front of them and say, right, you know, do we want to be like Canada or do we want to be like Oregon or like Switzerland, you know, and they'd be able to make those decisions. so one of the things that you can do is you can write to your mp and essentially demand an inquiry and i don't understand how mps can say no to that because it's not like we're asking for a change in the law we're asking for government to actually look into the issue in depth and have these conversations so writing to your mp and saying you know this is why i care about assisted dying make it as personal as possible and say i want an inquiry those words you know will change the tide and they will lead to positive change you can also become a member of the organization and then you know we can either help you share your personal story because again it's personal stories that are changing minds and changing hearts or we can supply you with you know tools and campaigning materials to help you campaign locally but fundamentally if you go and talk to your mp if you can if you can sit down with your mp and have a conversation with them that's what's going to change the lines and that's what's going to change the law
Speaker 1brilliant and as you've said you know the support is clearly there on the streets so despite the obvious resistance that uh this this campaign and so many others faces within the machinery of government are we generally moving in the right direction or are we still on ground
Speaker 2zero no change is coming and so something again to get on the technical side so nothing's happening in england and wales right right now there's no there's no votes there's no legislation there's literally literally nothing and nothing's likely to happen this year because of the parliamentary session essentially that there's going to be no you know new assisted dying laws introduced so if you look at it that way it's bleak but scotland is having a bill that's going through they've had they they had a consultation so they you know they asked the scottish public what do you think about assisted dying and they got an unprecedented response so they're you know sifting through those responses they're examining the evidence now and they're going to introduce law um a bill sorry in september and then that might be a law you know by 2023 or 2024 depending on obviously how it goes through so there's that pressure from scotland in the um on the island of jersey they had something really interesting called a citizen's jury so we don't really have them here in england and wales but essentially they got rounded up a group of people that are kind of um meant to be representative of the population they asked them a bunch of questions about sister dying you know do you think it would work in jersey what would it look like what sort of safeguards would you like and jersey responded and said you know the people of jersey responded and said yes we want to assisted dying we wanted to look a little bit like canada and that model of you know not just for the terminally ill but the incurably and unbearably suffering and then so jersey have approved assisted dying in principle so all they need to do now is they're going to essentially they've just had an election they're going to vote on it soon and again that could be a law and exactly the same similar thing is happening in the island of man there's a there's what's called a private member's bill going through their their government right now so there's pressure coming from all sides here and i really don't don't think it would be sustainable if england and wales don't have a law and yet scotland jersey and the eye of man do and even even the you know the republic of ireland are now looking into this and they've got they've literally just announced like a special committee to look into it so there's all of that pressure going on and then you know that there's a welsh element as well like that so the wales can't choose its own assisted dying laws even though it can choose its own health care there's a bit of a weird kind of um problem happening here with evolution so i think you know there is a lot of support for assisted dying in wales in the synod as well and they could either kind of vote for it in principle or they could demand more devolution on this and they could say this is something that we want to legislate themselves so there's you know that if you look at it on paper it's bleak nothing's happening but if you look at the overall picture of the world of british society of england and wales it's going to happen it's got to happen and i fundamentally believe it it will it has to how can we not you know we're an empathetic society we are a compassionate society we must have compassion for the people at the end of their
Speaker 1lives i can't imagine anybody would disagree with that sentiment at all and it does seem to be a growing awareness and enlightenment um on this issue around the world because you've already mentioned like two major powers like canada and switzerland is already having legalized assisted dying but am i right in saying that holland and belgium also have it as
Speaker 2well yes so and again that's something so you know um mps voted on assisted dying they voted on it a couple of times last time was in 2015 and some people point to that and say you know in we voted on it in 2015 we voted no why are we voting for again and that's as you mentioned in international context i think in 2015 there were you know a couple of million people who had access you know in switzerland and places like that now it's nearly 350 in fact i think it's over 350 million people across the world have access to assisted dying there's so much evidence there there's so many places that we could look at there's so many places in europe austria very recently um changed the law italy are being very uh difficult about it but they've just had their first assisted death that was due to a court case so i'm not sure they've changed the law but they've had their first assisted death and then a really interesting country to look after spain because spain you know technically is well not technically spain is quite a deeply catholic country like quite a deeply religious religious country so how how have they got an assisted dying law and we don't why are we refusing to have this conversation and to legislate about it well i'm not
Speaker 1surprised about italy you know for the very reasons you mentioned you know deeply devout catholic nation so props to spain another deeply devout catholic nation for taking the lead on this um that i think is a very encouraging sign and it leads me to ask you a very simple question of are you hopeful
Speaker 2yes yes i i'm hopeful and i have to be hopeful in this line of work i mean someone calls me up every single month you know almost more than that actually and says you know i'm in this situation i've got skin cancer i've got this and i i'd like this is to death and it is soul destroying to not be able to help because i can't because if i even told them what to google and where to look i could face 14 years in prison oh my god that that's you know not to bring this to me but like that that's that's horrible that brings me to tears every single time because i was growing up you know i was taught if you see someone who needs help you help like that's what you do that's that's part of you and that's how i believe everyone should be and it's really difficult in this side of work to have people call up and to be able to say to them i'm really sorry i can't even answer your questions like i can't do anything so yes crazy i'm hopeful that we i'm hopeful that we will have a change in the law because i have to i honestly do believe it's a matter of time and it depends on how good basically i am at my job depends on what that time scale is well you're clearly
Speaker 1very good at your job you're doing great work and it's a very noble cause so we all thank you for that man and if what you're telling us is that the the only barrier to this is getting the collective minds of our representatives on site so that we can shove a law through to make this happen then i don't see that as an insurmountable i feel like if everybody who listens to this takes heed and makes this a priority next time they go and knock the door of their mp and raises the question with them as to where they stand on this issue and keeps asking them that question over and over and over again consistently month after month after month slowly over time we can start to normalize the conversation around this which which actually doesn't even need to happen given given the statistics you gave us earlier about the support base for this amongst the general public being yeah easily between somewhere between 60 and 90 percent you know that that's a majority whichever way it goes down so i'm quite optimistic that if enough people actually act now on the information that you've given us today that this could be an easy win for
Speaker 2us i i really hope so and i'm in quite a unique position now you know i'm trying to work myself out of the job here as fast as i as i can
Speaker 1but don't put us in a sticky predicament now and now we've got to choose do we want to keep nathan on a job or do we want to get this thing through So where can people go then to take this further? Where can they find you guys? how can they get
Speaker 2involved yeah so it's it's my death dash my decision.org.uk you know a donation would be incredibly helpful and we are as i said earlier we are grassroots like we we are a membership organization and we literally wouldn't be anywhere without our members and it's the people who donate and who support and who write letters and help us out and who volunteer who are the reason that we exist as an organization and we couldn't exist without donations or help from our you know really so passionate supporters so yes it's my death that's my decision.org.uk or um if you just google my death my decision or on twitter we are mdmd my decision and you'll you'll find us you know you'll find us campaigning and we're out there doing as much work as we humanly can with such a small team you're
Speaker 1doing brilliant work man honestly keep please keep doing everything you're doing and for anyone listening to this please support the work that these guys are doing at my death my decision they are a charity so please if you're able to contribute please do that as well because you know that is the lifeblood of these campaign groups is donations that enable people like nathan to spend all their time campaigning on these really important issues that touch so many of our lives so please help out in any way that you can and speaking of that important work you better let you get back to it haven't we so nath thank you so much for your time today i really do appreciate you taking time out to speak with us and thanks for everything you're doing i've really enjoyed the chat and there's tons of good food for thought here which i know is going to make a lot of sense for you guys so thank you so much for your time and i'll see you a lot of difference to anyone that listens to it so thanks for everything you're doing and thanks for being with us today man well
Speaker 2thank you so much for talking about it you know it's these national conversations that we need to have that are going to cause the change in the law like you're doing such amazing work and thank you so much for amplifying our message anytime and
Speaker 1hopefully you know the next time we have you on it'll be to celebrate
Speaker 2that would be wonderful i would love that very very much well you
Speaker 1heard him gang let's put nathan out of a job and make this thing happen well nathan thanks so much for being with us again today my best wishes with everything and we hope to see you again really soon take care man bye-bye bye thank you nathan stillwell ladies and gentlemen from the group my death my decision i really hope you enjoyed that one guys that's a very personal one for me and it's a very sensitive delicate issue i hope you you felt that it was dealt with in a in a respectful manner and i hope that anyone who's been touched by this um didn't find that too upsetting or distressing to to listen to and recount and dig up those memories personally i think the time has come for us to talk about has come for us to have assisted dying in the uk i think it shows compassion bravery and maturity when facing the one thing that we can all be certain of in our life which is our mortality and that of our loved ones i think the work that nathan and many others are doing on this issue is brilliant and if you'd like to support them or just stay up to date with what they're doing their website is my death hyphen my decision.org.uk and their twitter is mdmd my decision give those guys a follow to stay up to date with campaigns that you can get behind and please the next time you speak to your mp or even if you don't even ever speak to your mp like i don't but make a make a habit of doing it because that's becoming a mainstay of all of these podcasts now is that all these campaign groups who were working their ass off we're all saying look guys we just need you to actually get in the heads and the hearts of your elective representatives because we can campaign as much as we want but until the laws are changed nothing systemic can actually happen so and that falls down onto our lap it's our responsibility these people are our representatives whether we chose them or not that's what we've got so it's down to us to get in the surgeries or in their inbox and just keep asking them for an answer where do you stand on this issue what are you doing about it are you going to raise it in parliament so yeah make a point of speaking to your mp and raising this issue with them as always let me know what you think you can leave comments on the youtube video i put this on youtube basically just as like an archive for people um who aren't on spotify or whatever but you could it's also a great platform you know for leaving comments and starting a public forum or you can comment on my social media posts i blast these things out on all platforms so you know let me know what you think and as always don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on whatever platform you listen to it on just hit that button man it's not difficult and if you want to leave me a rating whether it's one star or five i don't care leave what you gotta leave but just leave me some comments and i'll see you in the next one bye bye something man and um i'll see you next week thanks so much for all the support you guys are awesome hope you're enjoying these chats let me know if there's somebody you'd like me to speak to or if there's an issue you think i should try and tackle on the show and we shall make it happen for you but until then i shall see you next week love you loads take care of yourselves take care of others and don't forget to follow the monday mix on my james kennedy spotify page here we go i've just thrown you some awesome tunage for the week as well so go and blast those bad boys and i'll see you next week see you you guys
PodcastTranscript AI