2 Years Later Series - Bank Robbery and Shooting - Incident Commander - Insp. Michael Brown

[Music] You're listening to the True Blue Podcast sponsored by the Victoria City Police Union. Real stories told by real police officers working in Victoria and a squimalt. What are the streets of Victoria and a squimalt really like? The True Blue Podcast will give you some personal insights into what happens when wearing a police uniform. Welcome back everyone to the True Blue Podcast. I'm Matt Waterman. So today we're doing our final episode that's going to do our two-year wrap-up of the BMO shooting. I've invited the critical incident commander, Inspector Michael Brown, to be with us tonight. He's going to chat with us. Welcome Mike. Thanks Matt. Thanks Todd. Appreciate it. We've gone through the last two years and we've done some interviews a year after the event. We decided to do a few more after the second year as well. Obviously the fact that some of the guys were pretty badly injured was one of the main reasons. And also because some extended investigations were required as the event was wrapped up. And then obviously at the end of this we thought, hey let's talk to the critical incident commander who was involved that day. And I think it's really important for the public to understand what that role is and maybe we will go through some of that stuff. But before we get there, so Mike Brown you've been a cop for how long now? I'm just finishing year 29. 29. Seems like yesterday, the old Academy days. That's true. That's true. I'm not possible. You're like 31 years old. And then shortly thereafter I seem to remember almost 25 years ago you and I went and took an ERT course. It's a good decision. Not at the time. Yeah, so it's amazing how much time flies by. So you're pretty junior when you when you took your ERT course and you were, but you you wanted to be on the team way back then right? Yeah, I had eyes on I mean, I wanted to be a policeman for as long as I could remember. I definitely had eyes on ERT probably in my mid teens. Actually, my dad was a policeman and he knew that I was really interested in ERT and he managed to for Christmas. When I was 15, he managed to get me an year to a GVRT hat and T shirt. And those are just my prize possession. So and the shirt was just a beauty. It was a black ringer T shirt. It had the GVRT symbol, the radical on the front. And on the back, it had a picture of an MP5 A3 and it was with the slogan, "Why walls when you can rock and roll?" Yeah, your T was definitely a goal from an early age for sure. That's your super popular high school. I didn't wear it in public. So then, but you have to A get hired by a police department, B, GVRT obviously was still around at that point and you're like, "Okay, I guess I better join up. I got to get the other T shirt." That's right. I went to UVic after high school and I was in my fourth year of my university education. I thought, "Okay, I'm getting close to finishing school, so I'll start applying." My plan was to apply all over BC. I was encouraged to apply at the time before I was free. It was actually a Matt's Cree. And then I ended up putting, I thought, "Okay, I'll put one application in while I'm in school just so I don't get overwhelmed." And I put my application into to Vic PD and things went well and I ended up getting hired before I finished my fourth year. So I actually had to pull out a university identity. Right on. What class were you in? I was class 62. A couple of beauties in that class. I was really lucky because I went to the academy with Mike Johnston and Lance Philip, who have been friends ever since. A couple good ERT guys, right there. Great humans. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. So, like I said, we took a basic course with ERT many, many years ago and that month of training or whatever it was, we get ready to basically put your name for to be a member of GVRT. Not every cop steps up to do this role, right? But I seem to remember my colleague over here, Mike Brown, was top of the course and was ready on the team the next day, right after we graduated. Nice job. Thank you. I mean, it was an unreal experience. I'm so grateful for it. I feel really lucky that the course was superintendent by Scott Green, Alcock and Trent Edwards. You really couldn't have asked for a better ERT instructors at the time. And I thought they ran a great program. So I was lucky to go through it. I actually remember on our night off exercise, you and I ended up in this terrible, bramble bush, getting all tangled up just lying there so we didn't get discovered. Those were fun nights. Hey, you know, I think back to the history of GVRT, right? Late 70s, they find the need to have this team to basically protect the public and or the police officers who are dealing with high risk, high, highly complex events. How else do we describe that? Yeah, high risk, highly complex, trying to deal with issues that are not easily solved. Yeah, yeah. I think, I mean, certainly in the so the advent of ERT or SWAT in the states, there were a couple of sort of what are called paradigm shifting incidents. So in 65, you have the Watts riots in Los Angeles. And then in 66, you have the Texas Tower Siege. And I think certainly LAPD at the time they analyze both of those scenarios and said, you know, we need to have a more robust response to deal with either large skill civil disobedience or serious firearms calls that are beyond the norm. And then certainly our program was spawned in the mid 70s in 1976, 77 in anticipation of that UN conference that was going to be hosted a Vancouver called the Habitat conference. So that's when the province funded the creation of two ERTs, one of Vancouver one in Victoria. And we were integrated from the beginning. It was actually four SPD and four VICPD members. Yeah, interesting. And then of course, you know, as time goes on, I remember that some of the original photos of the original members of the team, you know, basically cobbling together some equipment and some firearms and so on to to basically make themselves a team. It's so different than what happens today. But what I've always been amazed at is how the team has evolved through change, right. We had to change with the advent of, you know, the old knockdown the door and ask questions later operations that we used to start with and how dangerous some of those entries were and how we needed to change our tactics. So tactics, the tasks, the complex risks that were all involved in. Yeah, things had to change and I saw so that that's when, you know, you must have software sure you you got on the team, you moved your way up the ladder on the team and eventually took over as the team leader, which in those days. Yeah, the team had expanded it slightly, I guess by that point, but it certainly was not it wasn't in its infancy, but we still had restrictions on we couldn't just swap out our equipment to brand new stuff at a whim, right. So we had to be a process to hey, we need better equipment to protect ourselves or we need better long guns or whatever the question was, right. So all of those challenges have occurred over the last number of years, you know, where we're now 50 years later essentially where we're finally you know, but the problem is that it still happens. Yeah, I think I think as you mentioned, I think your tea has been in a state of cost that evolution. And I think the program isn't a really good place right now. Yeah. You know, the the current team members highly skilled, super motivated, well equipped. They're just very, very good at their craft. Yeah, they're like there's no doubt though they're not satisfied, right. They they want to get better and they want to keep improving. And I think that is really the key to the program is is not don't ever be complacent or in the state of satisfaction, you have to try to strive to get better and improve. Yeah, really well said the first year one. series that we did. I think one of the biggest focus was with Dr. Voo and the medical training that all our people and Mike and all the guys that had done that training right that really saved lives and that wasn't there when you and I were on the team. No I remember we sent I know we sent one or two members to at the time was called T-Triple CCCs of the Tactical Combat Casualty Care Course. I believe we sent one or two members to that which is good. They brought back good information but it was like what they've done now in terms of the medical training and the program through Dr. Voo and now the subject matter experts on the team is just at a completely different level. Yeah, it's awesome and did save lives and will save many lives in the future and we talked about it in the other podcast too where well every patrol member carries around some of that equipment now and they're ready to jump into action and did so that day. So Mike, two years ago June of course as I said you were the critical incident commander. Tell everybody what the role is of the critical incident commander from the standpoint of sort of the bigger picture. There's one duty officer we'll call it. I'll use that terminology maybe for some of the listeners so they understand it and they are focused on hey if something serious happens they will call the duty officer correct. So that's changed a bit so we now have two coderies. So both Sanach and Victoria police have a duty officer roster and a critical incident commander roster. So the duty officer roster each department identifies other staff sergeants or inspectors that are usually on a week rotation in the duty officer role that's usually to be on call for maybe personnel issues. If a member is injured on duty a more complex file that requires more robust investigation and maybe some consultation. But we've separated that out now. So if you're a critical incident commander you're generally not in the duty officer role. Okay. So our critical incident commander Codre is it's now fully integrated. So it consists of members of Sanachia Victoria. I think we're sitting in about five commanders right now. So and usually what what's your your your on duty for that week or how does it work? We do we usually do a week rotation. Okay. So tell me two years ago I don't know if you remember all of the details but when this event happened had you just started your week or were we in your rotation? That's a good question. I can't remember what day the week it was but I do remember that on the 28th of June we actually met at Sanachia PD at six o'clock or so in the morning. Oh right because there's the other operations. Yeah it was a pre-planned operation where your team was requested to provide security for a surveillance job and we met at about six in the morning. I remember it was a beautiful day. Yeah. Sun was shining. Your team members looked great. I'll kid it up ready to go and we did a briefing and the couple surveillance teams rolled out to try to get on target and ERT went and shadowed. I did not stand up the CP or command post for that file just because you know there was it was unlikely that we were going to be required to actually take over action on that file. So I set up my own personal CP so I had my computer. I had two surveillance radios so I could listen to both teams and then I had my tag radio so I could communicate with the ERT. So there's a bit of juggling going on just with that you can tell it's not all just one channel right? No no we had we had a few on that day. So surveillance got on target. They located who they were looking for and the surveillance began and it was sort of in and out of the greater Victoria area and I think it was shortly after 11 o'clock. I got actually a text message to my phone from Colin Watson who was the acting chief that day and he said something to the effect of turn your radio to SPD main. Okay. I thought it was odd. It was an odd message to get from the acting chief San Diego to a Sanuches channel. So that okay. So I flipped my radio over to Sanuch and initially I didn't hear. I just at the time I clicked SPD main there happened to be a lull in the radio transmissions and then all of a sudden I heard a couple of key transmissions. I thought okay this is a legit bank take over robbery or hostage taking. So I messaged John musical right away who was the tattoo leader who is in charge of the the ERT deployment for the surveillance job. And I said to John the same thing I don't remember the exact words but get on SPD main and then I got another message from Colin Watson right away after that and I said John break off the surveillance job and roll straight to the bank. We did get a very I would say a four to two at his bounce. At the time those transmissions were happening and we were getting a bit of a heads up the surveillance which had been quite far out of town at one point had actually come back and we were I think they were probably in the Humber Green area so around Douglas hillside. So they actually weren't super far away from the bank of Montreal. So you know had that had I received that message 20 minutes earlier the response I would have at least double. So John roll to the bank. I continue to listen to the radio I packed up all my stuff and I started driving on the highway to get to SPD. I remember I was probably in the area of Pacific Christian school just passing it and I heard a transmission over the radio and I could actually hear active gunfire over the radio. And you're like wait a second I have an author I was in the action here. I remember I remember the words that went through my mind at the time I heard the gunfire and it was well the boys are into it. So shortly thereafter I arrived at Sanich's station. So we're setting up the command post there. Yeah so I as soon as I got through the doors I linked up with Drew Robertson. So for the folks that are listening Drew is an inspector at Sanich former EGRT team leader one of our current critical incident commanders and just a fantastic human being and a really good friend. So I linked up with Drew and Sanich has a room and they're building called the DOC and their operation centers so we set up. Yep. And started setting up the CP in that room. The gunshots go off but as we know from the news and everything else like that period of time is not very long. Do you have an estimate of the actual from what I thought at the time or or well no yeah give me the real amount and then talk about it. I think for a lot and I don't use this term to be crass but we'll just call it the gunfight. Yeah I think the gunfight itself was was over in a really a couple of moments. Yeah it was not a long drawn out scenario. It was very fast and hyper violent. But you're now back at the command post basically making you know coordinating and making sure that everything's going to get dealt with from from an incident commanders perspective. Right so you know the the commanders role is to try to bring stability to a call to make command decisions and to really bring the appropriate resources to bear. It's really it's nuanced though when you should be as the CIC when you should actually take command of a call and there's really two key criteria before you take command. It's an incidentally one of the criteria is not well on the command of that day so I'm just going to immediately take command of a call. The two key criteria number one you need to have the appropriate resources on the ground to sort of execute what your wishes are. But number two and this is really important you should have sufficient situational awareness of what's going on. So at the time I arrived at sandwich PD I would say the situational awareness was quite low. You know I heard the radio transmissions I was aware that there's a violent encounter that happened at the bank. So then my role at that point wasn't to immediately take command it was to try to gain situational awareness. So you got to get that situational awareness squared off for you to then say I'm in command. Exactly right yeah so even though like before I officially took command over the radio I was making some what I would describe as command decisions and a lot of that was happening off of the radio. Text and phone calls. So and I'll give you an example. So I obviously wanted to know what the status of the team was so I remember messaging John and I said how bad of a guy's hurt and a little bit of a delay and then I got a one word answer on text and it was bad. So you know there's a lot of things kind of going on I would say mentally and emotionally at that time so you're you're terrified for your friends and your teammates but you also have to bring some stability to to the call. So I did take them out of the call and then just started trying to do the best I could to try to create some stability. to what was in my mind still an ongoing hostage taking. So even though this violent encounter had occurred between the suspects and the police, there was a lot of work to be done. Some of our previous guests obviously have talked about that work, you know, the search of the bank and making sure that while then the vehicle is parked outside and all the munitions and whatever else was in there, it's just, you know, yeah, disaster. But there's that report of a potential third person to that. Yeah, that actually that I call it the specter of the third person and that that kind of entered the call fairly early. And it was it was really it was serious, but it was also an annoyance because it sounded like, okay, maybe there's a third person and then you get information suggesting there wasn't. So it was it was a bit of a yo-yo scenario there. I just want to give some give some props to a few people if I can just at this point in the call. So obviously this is the impency of the call the violent encounter has just happened. I really want to amplify what the first responders did in response to the original call of the bank robbery. So these are the patrol and frontline folks from Sanuch and the Victoria folks that came in. I think a needle appa from central Sanuch K. And I just can't emphasize enough just the professionalism, the bravery, the teamwork, just the outstanding response from the frontline officers. And I just I think it it just needs to be highlighted. I think it's so important. And you look at you know the one the call that comes to mind is you look at you of all day. Okay, so the you've all the active shooter. And I'm not here to you know to insult another police organization. But that that by by any objective measure that calls an abject failure by the police. At the moment of truth that group did not rise to the occasion. Yeah, you look at the bank of Montreal scenario and all of those police officers that responded in the first instance there. Now this isn't without your direction. This is this is this is we're still doing our surveillance. Yeah, right. And I just think and this is not like I know there's trauma for those folks. I do. Even though perhaps not physical certainly emotional. But my message to those folks that responded would be please be proud of yourself. And and look you can look at yourself in the mirror knowing that on game day. You kicked in and did a great job. And I think that's super powerful. I was most thankful that some of that stuff was caught on video. And we've shown it to the world. Police officers running towards the sound of gunfire. And that's exactly what we trying to do. You know every day and we drill it into people to this is what we have to do. And I think it's too I for me it's it's so cool to see because I think in this region we have invested in patrol tactics training. And I think that's it's it's just really gratifying to see the members work so hard in training and then to see this good success when it really matters. And then I want to talk about the your team members as well. I mean that that response. And what they gave of I think what they gave of themselves was really remarkable. Totally. And you know I all of a sudden the team leader has been shot. The two I see is out of town. But enter Scott Hurston. And Scott Hurston, the sniper team leader, normally not his role to run attack operation on the ground. And Scott stepped into the role like seamlessly. And and Scott and I were in constant communication for the and he just did a phenomenal job on that call. Just really stoked for him. Mike before yeah I want to get into a couple things but one of the things that I've already seen is some some some very deserved sort of well I think not that you need media attention but there's been some really good media attention on those exact people for the efforts that they made and you know their accommodations and whatever else is maybe there's more down the road doesn't matter but the important part is they're being recognized and I'm glad actually that we get a chance to capture more of that here and it's coming from you as the incident commander itself and and an experienced guy like yourself. So I think it's fantastic and thank you and thanks to all those people for for that effort. But you know one of the things that first came up when you started talking about the team members and I was thinking I guess when you were a team leader you must have trained some of these well the team leader musical you would have trained. Yeah so I was involved in in some basic courses in delivering and helping out with some basic courses and you know John was definitely one of our candidates. I remember I know Dylan Bruce was Lane Douglas Hunt so yeah sort of as I was transitioning out I did I did. And you turned the team over to some other fellows and And eventually, they're continuing the training to the next group of people many years later, right? So but it's such an interesting sort of passin' on of the torch to the next person who's gonna lead the team from different areas. But also teach the team for, hey, we got to be ready, we got to go, we got to go to training all the time, we have to, we have to read, we have to listen, we have to watch. To get better, we can't just, like you say, that's our job is to be ready for the unknown ones, right? Yeah, the enemy is not the criminal element, the enemy is complacency. But I guess my point is, I think about those times and I remember being on the team when you were the team leader and seeing the effort that was put into preparing everybody during these courses, right? There are some long days to make sure people are ready for incidents like this. Yeah, the program is designed for that. It's designed to try to prepare our members for complex operations. I mean, I certainly for, my own bias was, my philosophy was when I was in that role was that our focus should be on Hostage Rescue. That really is the reason why the team exists and I felt that if we had our Hostage Rescue game squared away, that the rest of the program would flow from that. And I, I think this was, this was a Hostage Rescue, 100% and. But we should be thanking, you know, certainly when I was on the team, we got a chance to train with some LAPD County guys, some LAPD SWATs, some Calgary SWAT, like all sorts of high end, very efficient operators who came and helped share information. I think for the listener, I've always said, you know what, when GBRT sent people to a conference and to training. We were at the top of the game. We weren't the bottom of the barrel. We were at the top of the game and we've got good people who who eventually joined this team and perform, right? So I agree. And I think you raised a good point. And I think it's longstanding in the GBRT history to build friendships and relationships with other teams. And I know when Scott Greene and Alcock and Trent were running the program, they built a great relationship with the WSTOA. So that was the Washington State Tactical Offices Association. Yeah. And then I'd like to talk about Tom Sawyer, if I can. Yeah. I just think he's such a special person in this conversation. And I need to highlight Tom. Tom also carried on that tradition when he took over the team from Alan Trent. Tom was a great bridge builder. And he developed some key relationships. He really continued to foster a relationship with Calgary and with Edmonton. But also kind of a new relationship with LAPD SWAT, particularly Mike Odle. Yes. And I think those relationships that Tom built really did pay dividends and continue to pay dividends for our program. And Tom, you know, he took the helm and I was really lucky because I was able to be mentored by Tom and I studied everything he did. I watched him like a hawk because he was just so good at his craft and dealing with people. So yeah, I just wanted to mention Tom's name because he's really important. Do you remember that picture with Odle and Tom and the white. And the Bronco and Bronco. I do remember that photo. So people who have seen it will know or talk like that. It's a classic. Yeah. Uh, yeah. You know what? That's, I guess that's part of my point is you look back at the members of GBRT have gone out of their way to make sure that the team is best prepared. It's not always the team leader, but there's all, you know, the sniper team leader. And uh, uh, individuals on the team who reach out and say, hey, I'm going to take a medic course. So I'm going to take, uh, maybe a long gone course or whatever, right? And, and you, you reach out and you, and you make sure that Hey, I learned something here at this conference. I'm going to bring back and talk to the team, right? So that's important. So let's go back to BMO the day. I'd be interested to know a little bit more about-- like I say, you're communicating via text and some telephone calls. And obviously things, quote, are bad from musical at the back of the van. How much more detailed information do you get on that day about the guys at the back of the van? I mean, most of my information came from Scott Hurston. Obviously we did not have-- I mean, the members-- and again, the patrol members and the year team members Mike Hirosh running the show there from the medical perspective-- obviously did some incredible and in Mark Vrues' words, gold standard tactical medical care. But then they were packaged up and sent off to the hospital. And that was a tough one because you're trying to focus on being the commander and making command decisions and trying to bring stability to this call. But in the back, you can't help but be completely stressed out about wondering what the medical status is of your friends. Because you're thinking about-- well, maybe I'm putting words in your mouth-- but your party rolls to think about the entire community. What else could go wrong here? Because there's been an attack on this bank and the police. Yeah, and I think I don't want to go off on a crazy tangent here, but maybe bear with me for a second. So obviously, we want to try to deal with the immediate scenario, which is I've got suspects down. I've got members going to the hospital. It's still a hostage taking. And the reason I believed it was still a hostage taking was we did have this vector with third suspect. The folks in the bank certainly weren't free to go. So for me, as someone that's being held against their will, regardless of location or circumstance, that's the criteria that we work from in a hostage taking. So there's still an active hostage taking. We did not have full control over the bank. We had control over some of it, but not all of it. Shortly thereafter, this concern about the vehicle in the parking lot enters the scenario. But I want to give a shout out to Calgary Tech here, and I'll tell you why. And you were on the same course. This is organized by Tom. And Tom wanted to bring two members from Calgary to do a hostage rescue course for us. So it was Tony Manning and Rick Demchuk. And one of the things that they focused on was, it was sort of a four-pronged mindset that Calgary Tech used for hostage rescue operations, particularly if it was a stealth operation. So key point number one is clear your mind of all thoughts other than the mission. Number two, resolve not to be surprised. Number three, expect to find the suspect around the next corner. And number four was upon contact, I will challenge the suspect. So since I learned that from Manning and Demchuk, I've applied that more broadly to tactical operations. So, and I remember thinking of that mindset early, early on in the bank of Montreal call. So one of the things that was going through my mind early on the call was, Kate, resolve not to be surprised. Don't be surprised if another critical incident occurs in the next hour or two, because Murphy's law would say, it's likely. So, and sure enough, one did. We did end up having an unrelated suicide barricade call in Victoria's jurisdiction. But because of that mindset, we weren't surprised when that came in, so we were prepared for it. But then you're also thinking, you can't help but thinking as you're managing the call, you're also thinking about, OK, what are your T-Services going to look like tomorrow? Absolutely. Or two weeks from now or long-term. Because you know some of the guys are down. So this is a logical segue for me to thank some other people. I'd really like to thank the RCMP. RCMP LMD, who the current GVRT members have cultivated a very, very close relationship with, came to our aid almost immediately. They flew over several members on a helicopter, landed it in the St. Michael's University School field. And we had support from LMD ERT almost right away. ILMDRT sent members to support us as well. So in terms of our ability to manage that other suicide barricade call and to bolster our resources at the Bank of Montreal call, we had incredible help from the RCMP. And I just want to thank them so much for that. Lots of response. And they actually ended up providing support for us for 48 hours. And then at the conclusion of that, Vancouver ERT sent us a six-person team to be with us for a week. And that was just so kind of them, great individuals. And that allowed us to do a hasty refresher course for some recently retired members. So we could get them back up to snuff so they could backfill our team so we could continue to do ERT operations on our own. So all of these key players came in to help us. And I think it just underscores the importance of having really good relationships with people in the tactical community. Wow. That's thanks for running through that because I think most of the public has no idea how quickly people stepped up to help first off. I mean, even from a patrol's perspective or certainly from an ERT perspective. And those people, I think they recognize when bad things happen, hey, that's when we have to stand together. So because you're protecting your fellow cop right there. So thank you to those organizations and people who did that. Obviously, I'm guessing there wasn't a big rig role to go up the chain of command all the way over to Ottawa. There were some people making decisions that are good decisions in making this happen right away. Yeah, the decision making was quick. Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. So sorry to take you off track there. But I want to go back to that little bit about how much more information you got there behind the band. And then I think I want to concentrate on you clear the bank and then you're basically dealing with the vehicle outside as well, right? So yeah, so we actually tried to deal with the vehicle first. OK. Because again, as Todd mentioned at the beginning, there was that specter of the third suspect. So you need to-- this is a Tom Sawyerism. You need to consider the known and the unknown factors. And it was an unknown factor. It was clear to us based on conversations and intel that this vehicle's probably involved in the scenario. But we couldn't clear the trunk because the trunk was closed and locked when E or T was dealing with it. And the unknown factor is what's inside it. Is there a chance that there's another suspect laying in weight? So we did start to deal with that. We ended up using the armored rescue vehicle just as a platform to operate from and to try to get that trunk open. And we did eventually get the trunk open. And that really did change the dynamic of the call. The trunk was a chock full of armor and ammunition. And what looked to us to be a couple of IEDs and a good stash of pipe bombs as well, not of low quality. So that to me as soon as I heard that's an automatic minimum 100 meter standoff. Because now we're dealing with an explosive call. We did eventually get the hostages removed from the bank. And the armored rescue vehicle was just such a key piece of kit to have because not only did it help us as we were dealing with the vehicle in the parking lot, it also is-- it provided a bit of a safety corridor. Did your hostages-- you're protecting because if something goes off, you've got an armored vehicle in front, right? Where people are being evacuated from there. Yeah, and this is really the sort of the decision making that's required when it comes to evacuations. It's not-- let's get the hostages out of the bank as quickly as possible. Let's make sure that if we remove them from the bank, we're not putting them more in harm's way than less in harm's way. So it was definitely satisfying when we got the hostages successfully removed and on two of us. And then we had a couple of outstanding issues, not the least of which was certainly the explosives component. But we did have two unclear rooms that were on the upper floor of the bank of Montreal. So it just worked with ERT and the patrol resources that were helping us just to get those rooms squared away and cleared and we confirmed that there was nothing to fare us inside. And then we're able to really transition the call from a hostage rescue to an EOD call. Was there any-- any concern that the two suspects may have been wired up with any type of explosives or anything like that? It certainly became a concern once the trunk was open and we definitely that's that's something that our EOD folks and it was just great having Lane Doug the stunt working with the Vancouver RCMP members in EOD just to have our own local expert on the ground but I know they took great care and that was that was a delicate dance for sure. Well it's great they came over we put them to work I guess that's that's important day so yeah and I think according to them I think it's it's one of the bigger explosives calls if not the biggest explosives calling wow and in Canada really so yeah it was yeah there's there was a lot of stuff in that trunk yeah so the investigation maybe we'll touch on this now the investigation continues well for a long time but the important part is we basically determined that well you tell me this wasn't a bank robbery gone bad no I think the way I would characterize it is is the bank robbery was a pretext for a violent encounter with the police okay of which we may never know the full details but with what you're describing and what the hell went on there with the shoot out and everything else it's amazing no cops died that day and I I certainly have some thoughts on that I think it really underscores I think you know when I think of the individuals that were shot they're all very different from one another yeah they're all so unique but they're very special human beings and I think the the will to live I think commitment to visit to lifelong physical fitness and good nutrition as trivils those things might sound in in a violent counter like that I think those paid huge dividends for for those members survival and their well-being and they're just the dedication to the craft and I think all of those things were brought to bear in that moment and it was a moment it was extremely violent but it was a moment yeah I what's I mean as we were saying earlier we've had this team around for a long time and you know we've had some issues but nothing to this level you know no and but to go back to that Calgary mindset I don't think the EAR team members that respond to the call that day were surprised I think if anything they were maybe surprised something like this hadn't occurred earlier the recipe for a call like this is really not that complex yeah it's you know maybe some mental health issues some anger and some sort of weapon it's really not that complex it's not an American phenomenon it's a human phenomenon and but I when you look at what the EAR team members were training you know recently before this call which was officer down in fact it was Damien that was I think playing the others I mean it's just incredible yeah but because they take their training so seriously and they were so hard it paid dividends on game day yeah yeah I don't know how much better we can say it those those are the issues right and you're in the seventh game that's standing up final over time you gotta be you gotta be ready to play yeah yeah I think it's it's really important for me to say this that I mean there's just so many facets to this call but I really want people to remember that there's a lot of different injuries that have occurred as a result of this file but when I think of the members that were shot those are serious injuries and and it's and they grind so hard and they work so hard to try to get better and they are getting better but they paid a very severe price for what was tantamount to a win for the police that day but they paid a severe price and they continue to pay it and I don't want anyone to forget that well said in the I think it was the global interview right where music go in yourself and you got a chance to say similar things right that you know arguably we we do the same thing for the public that's our job no I think and the public was the public response was really remarkable yes and and I really feel like the public rallied towards us in the aftermath of that scenario and it was there's just some really special things and and just seeing I remember walking in the in the first floor at Vick PD and they had a like a table set up with all the cards that were pouring in for the public and I just thought it was really really cool yeah and certainly the same guys have said the same thing right the the sport has been fantastic and you know sometimes we get kind of complacent from the standpoint that hey you know people bitch about the police but the reality is I think most people thank us for for what what's expected right agreed yeah yeah so your day doesn't end I'm sure when you clear all the stuff huh what time do you get the bed that night I think because the EOD component was was going through the night yeah I remember drew and I were at the CP and I wanted to make sure that the CP was was closed and locked just for yeah because we still had our our boards up yeah so just for continuity purposes and I wanted to FIS to to make sure they photographed it okay but I think I went home about 12 30 maybe one o'clock in the morning and I guess that's a key point right all of this stuff that you're doing in the command center is is all about its evidence for the for the investigations that have to occur afterwards your notes your you know your after-action report all of that stuff is just critical as to you know what what should go into the investigations of these these events so but I think that the hop back to what I was talking about you get home it's late at night you know stuff been hitting the fan all day long do you sleep at all dude I don't think I slept particularly well but I think in those moments certainly in my life you know you just have to rely on the people that love you and my wife Larry is just awesome so she's my go-to in those moments like I remember King George Terrace and you remember that call well she was waiting for me on the doorstep when I got home and she's just the best support for me and and it was no different for yeah for BMO yeah those those calls are gonna stick with you the rest of your life and I mean I still think about the kid who died at King George Terrace and now it was supposed to be his first day at school or whatever the scenario was and it just stuff like that sticks with you you know you think about your kids and your kids kids and whatever else down the road right like people shouldn't have to deal with that but sometimes life slaps you and that stuff happens right so and then trying to trying to wrap your mind around the fact that a couple guys decided to do what we're talking about and who knows who knows why like you said mental health whatever's going on in their world but to try and justify it in your head as to what what the hell happened and why did we have to deal with this why did we have to suffer it just makes it so tough sometimes to like I say you wake up some days just wondering huh Jesus I'm still thinking about this yeah yeah this one I honestly I'm still trying to to sort of work it out in my mind yeah and just trying to make sense of it so let me ask you a little bit more about your after-action and so that report gets done who do you present that to the who gets that and it's an educational part too right to the other insukin commanders I guess but yeah I mean really it becomes part of the file right at that point the the sort of the invest component of that file was just getting geared up right so and you know there are really three investigations that we're going on concurrently so you have VIMQ's yeah investigation you have you know Sanuch's investigation of the actual what you know the robbery itself and then you have the the IOs investigation into the actions of the work so yeah it really does it formed part of the investigation albeit probably just a small part Yeah, it's funny though, like you just running reports, it's just so critical and you want to make sure you do a good job and there's just so much to capture. There's just so much going on in the CP, so many different facets, right? Getting updates on the members, making sure that the notification to the spouses was happening, calling up resources, local external. It was definitely a frenetic pace. Yeah, and the investigations carry on and you're trying to provide the best information so that essentially, the correct decisions have to be, or the correct outcome has to happen, right? Whether there was any wrong decisions or missteps or whatever, right? And I've talked about in some of the other episodes, but frustrations, I guess for me is always how long these things take. It always seems to weigh heavily on the members and, and, well, probably yourself too, what's your thought on that? I have a lot of thoughts on that. It's hard to watch members suffer as these processes drag on. And I think most folks would have no clue about the burden that the members carry when those processes are moving at a snail's pace. And there's a lot of stake. Yeah, it's, I mean, I, you know, for the last 10 years, the phrase trauma informed gets thrown around a lot, but sometimes I don't see these processes as particularly trauma informed, certainly not towards our folks. Yeah, everyone loves the catchphrase. That's great to say it. Yeah, yeah, we're doing some trauma informed stuff. Yeah, but you better look in the mirror because it's not helping. Yeah, so those are, well, some comments from this room for, for right now, but, yeah, and that's the issue is we wish those things could get resolved quicker and, and especially we don't know anything, you know, why were these guys doing that? You know, and all, all those things come, they're a factor too, right? And, yeah, anyway, we could go on and on about that. So your, your role afterwards, so obviously the team is depleted. You've talked about the RCMP and Vancouver PD and everybody else stepping up and helping out with, you know, sort of that immediate week, two weeks after, right? But the team's depleted. Some of the guys have talked about, hey, we had to put a quick course on and while you, you mentioned the retired members to start with, but you think about how the team itself is probably at a fragile state, right? Like, they're still expected to go out and maybe deal with the same call the next week, right? So, yeah, and I think, and I really give a lot of credit to the team leadership. You know, Dylan Bruce and Kyle Sims, they, that, you know, it's really interesting when you see these things unfold. So, you know, they weren't at the original call in the first instance. But that's a good thing in the sense that their role in the cause most based on the way this went down was to really keep the team running in the aftermath of that event and such a critical role. And it was a real point of pride for the tactical unit to get stood up and to get, to put themselves back together and to be able to be a standalone unit to continue to serve the region. That was a big deal. And I just really want to give credit to the team for being able to do that and in short order and to get back up and running and to be a full service ERT again. Yeah, I was really happy to see how quickly to the, like they were training brand new people, like pretty quick, right? To say, hey, we need some new blood on the ground. And, and we got some really good new blood out of that course. Do you, do you feel like the membership, you know, that might, I don't want to say, might have helped to have a bad incident happen? But, members stepped up to the game right away. I was impressed with that for sure, right? To say, hey, this is an important role and I want to, I want to be part of this. Yeah, and it was, it was really, it was, you know, I was kind of on the sidelines watching that unfold and it was really, honestly, it's inspiring, right? You have this, you have this, an incident of that magnitude that did that much damage and then people putting their hands up the next day to volunteer to compete for the next base of course. And that was, I found that really, really exciting and inspiring. Yeah, for sure. I think, yeah, I'm a big proud Canadian, right? People stepped up in, in battle over the years and honestly, I think in those moments we're at our best. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So the recovery process, Mike, let's just talk a little bit more about that. We talked about it, some of the guys are still doing surgeries. Obviously, the emotional well-being is a concern, not only for them, but we had some wives in here too, right? We chatted with them. It's not just them, it's their spouse, it's their kids, it's, you know, there's so many people involved. And this recovery process is a long one. It'll probably never be over for most of them, but what I have been really happy about is these members are specifically the members on GBRT who are now going out and sharing what the tragedy that they went through. Hey, I think it's a little bit, well, it's probably a little bit good for them. And it's a great thing for other ERT members across North America to learn from. Well, I think it's huge. I think, you know, one thing that I was definitely reinforced for me watching the members in the wake of this call was, it really goes to show that it's not a, like in terms of recovery, there's not a one size fits all approach, individual, and again, I really want to emphasize this for people that are listening that I think sometimes people want to, you know, put cops all in the same batch, or cops are all the same, or ERT members are all the same. And I really think that's unfair and I think it's actually incorrect. I think this is a mosaic of a very unique individual humans that maybe share common goals and share some similar character traits. But, you know, not all of the members, for example, want to go out and provide a deep ref of the scenario because that doesn't work for them. Others may find it actually therapeutic. There is no doubt in you mentioned this, Matt, like other teams will derive benefit, immense benefit from what our members did on June 28th, and they already have. So whether it's people that attend the NTOA conferences or the California, California Association of Tactical Offers Conference or medical debriefs, I know, you know, the local medical community will definitely benefit from studying and learning what they did in terms of combat casualty care. Well, I had seen sort of from the periphery that the people medically who were involved that day in the emergency rooms got a chance to do a bit of a debrief, which I think was something that they maybe hadn't that much experience with with this sort of massive trauma day, right? And again, not only are they learning from it, but they're probably helping themselves, you know, unwind and understand what the hell happened that day, right? So yeah, there's so many positives to that, I think, from an education standpoint. Actually, that just could I go slightly tangential for a second? That just peaked my memory. Cliff Watson was the Victoria watch commander that day, and Cliff very switched on individual. He actually was contacting the hospitals right away to try to get them, give them a heads up that some serious trauma was coming their way. So I just, I just our discussion about the medical end of things reminded me of that. So I just want to thank Cliff for for doing that. It was a really, really good move on his part. Yeah, it's amazing what cops are just thinking outside the box like, hey, oh, for those who don't know already, you know, Cliff's the next year or T guy. He's sitting in the watch commander's office and he's thinking outside the box, hey, what can I do? I can't be on the ground today, but what can I do? And obviously he thought of the right things, right? You know, and even some of the stories that we had from a couple of people about what was going on in their world, hey, I'm a troll officer. I'm a union executive person. I'm whatever. And you're thinking. about, well, what can I do to make this better, right? We have the union presidents on and they chatted about, you know, we've got to take care of our members in this situation, right? And it's been a long road, you know, and it's still going. But I'm thankful that all those people are actually stepping up and doing their job like they should be. So that's fantastic. How much, how much opportunity Mike of you had to sort of share some of your experience around this call? Anything that you want to highlight? I've only, I've spoken a couple of times on it. I know there's a podcast being put together by John Becker. Yeah. So I spoke to John and he has been so supportive of our team and actually really, really helpful on the recovery and the things for our members. He's a very unique, engaged, charismatic, special, special person. And then I did kind of a short debrief for a K9 conference. I didn't really get into too much detail about it. And Mike Hirosh also attended that conference and gave a more full-sum debrief on the medical end of things. And then I had a great opportunity to speak at the BC Leap Conference, which was in Kelona this year. And that's the BC Association for Law Enforcement Professionals. So civilian members that work, EAs and that work in the, okay. And the policing industry, and just a great, great bunch of people. And Christine Marshall organizes that group. And Christine graciously asked me to speak on it. So I, I spent a bit of time with them just going through some of the BMO scenario. Fantastic to share some of that stuff, I think, with people who, well, they may never get involved in something like this, but you're sharing your experiences and it's probably helpful for them to understand, okay, well, what if something like this happens? How do we respond? How do we help support the members that are involved, etc., etc.? Yeah, the John Becker's of the world. And so on, I mean, we've been talking about him for a year, like really, he's, if you've never listened to his podcast, he was fantastic. He's got so many contacts in the ERT world, swat world down there. And I think he does a good job of painting the picture of why it's important for the members to be prepared to be properly protected to, you know, those sorts of things, right? So it's fantastic to, and that our guys are getting a chance to share with them too. Mike, 29 years. So normally we kick people out of placing around that time. How much you got left? I'm definitely running towards the finish line. Yeah. Well, thanks for coming to chat with us. You know, to me, you're spoken very highly of many people and I just want to speak very highly of you. Thank you for your efforts. I was, I was sort of a proud trooper to follow the lead of you. Thanks for all your work in in GBRT. It's fantastic. And you've done so many years of dedicated time. So well done. Thank you. As you may know, everyone gets the true blue podcast going. It comes to talk to us. I appreciate that. Thank you so much for having me. There's your, there's your copy and, yeah, appreciate it Mike and stay safe. Everybody out there and thank you. We'll see you at the next true blue podcast. Thank you for listening to the True Blue podcast. Join us next time for more stories about policing in Victoria and Desquimalt. The True Blue podcast is sponsored by the Victoria City Police Union thanks to our media partners, H2 Accelerator, who have helped design and deliver our new improved marketing strategies. Thank you to our Master of Music, Gord McKee. Special thanks to the creators of the True Blue podcast. Host, Matt Waterman, Sound and Editing, Todd Mason, Concept Design, Darryl Bazwick, and Sidekick Steve for the Production and Sound Studio.