#2 The Estrogen Equation: What You Need to Know on TRT

This episode is brought to you by Verdice Health Optimization. If your energy is dropped, your recovery is slow, and your libido, well, it's non-existent, it's time to stop guessing. Josh and his team at Verdice specialize in personalized hormone optimization with comprehensive lab work and individualized treatment plans. Now serving Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia, West Virginia, Florida, New York, New Jersey, Nevada, and Delaware, with Michigan and Minnesota coming soon. And even more states on the way, visit Verdice Health Optimization.com and be sure to tell them the TRT Dad sent you. All right. Okay, Doug, here we go. We are back. We are back. This is, this will be episode number two. And we are going to jump into which I didn't know how essential this part was, but we're going to talk about estrogen. Because I think like everyone else I thought estrogen was the enemy of testosterone. So I figured, you know, when you jump on testosterone replacement therapy, you want to crush your estrogen and jack your testosterone, right? Because women have estrogen, men have testosterone. And that is the absolute worst way to think. So how about we jump into the importance of estrogen? Oh boy. So as you were saying, estrogen has had this nefarious rap for years. And I think we didn't understand it very well. And when I say we, I'm referring to like the greater medical community, okay? You know, and I think it gets its association kind of negatively in a way. We do think of it as a woman hormone, specifically when thinking it from like a testosterone side, right? But it is very much a man hormone as much as it is a woman hormone as well. As we are finding out and have found out through the years that estrogen has many roles in a man's body. It's responsible for libido. It's responsible for vision. It's responsible for bone density and male and female. It's responsible for rectal function via libido. It's responsible for, if I didn't say vision vision, or my instead that twice, I'm trying to go back on myself here. But it helps with insulin and it helps with your heart kind of indirectly. But there's a lot of positive processes that are estrogen related that we need if we want to live our best life, so to speak, okay? The way estrogen I think was viewed is, you know, it comes from bodybuilding realm, I think, is, you know, estrogen causes us to retain water, which that's mostly testosterone's fault. Probably someone I'll doosterone's fault too. And, you know, it gave me a guy no. Right, right. So there's the bad rap, you know, and that's because testosterone is a performance enhancer, right? We're going to have that protein synthesis, like we talked about last time. And, you know, we don't want estrogen. We want all testosterone to estrogen. But I think, you know, the tides are changing on that. At least I hope they are. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, so just from the layman, like someone like me, I was, I thought that, you know, obviously testosterone is what we're looking to do. We're boost in testosterone. You would crush your estrogen, boost your testosterone. You would be more of a man. So the clinic that I went to in the beginning immediately put me on an aromatase inhibitor, because obviously you want to keep your estrogen in check or low. And I definitely experienced ED, which I didn't know. I thought it was from testosterone. They said it was from the testosterone. And after, now I didn't experience it right from the beginning, but it was sometime into it that I experienced it. When I stopped taking it, that went away. Yep. And also, I would say about a month after I took it or stopped taking it, I felt like the testosterone was working better. I felt better myself. Like I was like, I started to feel like, wait, you know what? I think this is what it's supposed to feel like, you know, and the clinic fought me and fought me and ended up being working out because I ended up, you know, we ended up meaning and we ended up going with you. But I didn't realize how essential. I think that for me personally, it affected my work in the bed. Sure. It definitely affected my gym at the gym, hands down. Because a month after when I started to feel better, it was like a light switch at the gym. And the first one on T or T, I had energy. So when I went to the gym, I was like excited about going to the gym. When I stopped the aromatase inhibitor, it wasn't like an excitement. More it was like, I'm going to, I'm going to crush the gym today. It was like a challenge every day. And then it was like, I was just putting weights on and then it was like, and then it became like, why was doing four sets? I needed to do five. And then I was like, you know what? I need to put more weight on. And like, I think I started to develop more muscle, like quicker. You know what I mean? Like I could tell that it was working. Like so by month six and seven, I could see that there was results that were coming. And that's probably due to one thing I left out, and I can't believe I left it out because it's probably one of the biggest features of estrogen. And that is growth hormone secretion is estrogen mediated. Okay. From pituitary. And your downstream hormone from a growth hormone, which would be IGF one, which is anabolic, which is going to help you build muscle mass, which is why bodybuilders use, you know, HDH for example, you need estrogen to secrete growth hormone. And growth hormone is going to help you lose fat. And it's going to help you downstream via IGF one, build muscle. So, you know, these guys that are on AIs are only hurting themselves because of that, you know, blocking the estrogen creation. Right. Yeah. I mean, so I guess the question is, is because everyone talks about the gyno, the side effects, the crying, all this stuff that comes with it. I personally have an expert. Now, have I do, I have a little bit more emotion? Yeah. I mean, I do. And I can tell. That's not necessarily a side effect. It's an intended effect of estrogen. That'd be like taking testosterone and be like, I gain muscle. Right. I don't want to gain muscle. You know, it's like, that's kind of the purpose of that hormone. That's one of the things that it does. It's not a side effect. It's a result of, you know, it's supposed to do that. It's not permanent, right? You might be emotional here and there, but it's not like you're going to be crying at everything that comes along for the next three months. You know, like, yeah. It's relative to, you know, having that hormone presence. So it's not a side effect. And then, you know, then you treat it, let's say, with an AI and you just crush your estrogen. And now you have nothing being created for up to two weeks. Right. You know, if you take a natural zone, I think a natural zone has a half life of what, two days roughly, it's going to take five half lives to fully get rid of that out of your body. Okay. So I mean, while estrogen production will ramp up, you know, certainly within that 10 day period, but it's going to take a while. So you could take theoretically, take two doses of an astrosol, two weeks apart and crush your estrogen for a whole month because as soon as you get it back up to like where it was, if you take another pill, it's right to the other end. Right. So why, well, you know, let's start with this because everyone's going to say, what about a guy now? I mean, that's, that's the number one thing is everyone's like, I don't want to get a guy now. Guy, no is, I think very misunderstood. And I am actually in process of doing my own video on guy, no one's in visual aids because I think that's what people need to fully kind of understand it. Okay. You need four hormones present to form breast tissue, the true guy, no, not fat, like actual ductile breast tissue. Right. You need estrogen or E2 estridile. You need IGF one. Okay, which is an estridile mediated process. Okay. You need prolactin and you need progesterone. Okay. Men hardly make progesterone for squat. Like we have like no progesterone appearance. We don't need it at all. We hardly make it at all. So, but those four hormones must be present to form this tissue. The other thing is is those four hormones must go unopposed from their counter inhibitory hormone, which just so happens to be testosterone. So when guys are like, I got gyno from testosterone, you don't get it. get Gino from testosterone. Testosterone blocks those hormones from having that action. Now, let's say you were castrated, right? If I had a guy with metastatic prostate cancer and we gave him a hormone blocker to stop his brain from producing anything to signal the testies and we basically chemically castrate him, right? That guy could form Gino. He could have estrogen, IGF1, prolactin, and progesterone in higher values than the testosterone that's there and therefore it could develop restitution. We have seen that happen in some guys with metastatic prostate cancer. Now, typically they're a little overweight, so they're going to have a little bit more adipose tissue, which also aromatizes testosterone to estrogen. So it will lower their T. It'll suck up kind of what they have and eat up their T. That's why it's not uncommon to see somebody that's really big. It has a lot of fat, have a low testosterone value, and that's because all their adipose tissue is sucking up all of their testosterone, turning it to estrogen. That in and of itself too is a scenario where somebody could form some breast tissue because their testosterone is ultimately low, okay? And it's being aromatized to estrogen, okay? Yeah, so let's take the bodybuilders, right? That's a common thing about the estrogen, gyno. So did these guys have gyno before? Is that. I think it's hard to say because you have to understand bodybuilders probably have some degree of body dysmorphia to begin with to get down that road, right? So like any small changes are probably going to blame it on something. Gyno typically happens in two life phases. Either happens when you're in a neonate or it happens in pre-peabertal phase of life. Why? Because those are two phases where those four hormones that I mentioned go virtually unopposed from testosterone, right? And you can form that tissue in that. In the case of let's say TRT or testosterone, right? What I've tend to notice is that guys that were maybe husky as a child and they go on to testosterone or maybe they run a steroid cycle like in their 20s or something, right? And they start to lift weights, put on muscle. As they lean out and they lose the body fat and they put on more muscle, what happens is the tissue that was there becomes more noticeable, right? Because it was kind of hidden behind the layer of everything they had on. It starts to reveal itself. And they're like, well, geez, I got this from X, Y and Z. No, you didn't. You had it already. You just kind of revealed that it was there, right? And if it's true ductal tissue, it's true glandular tissue. The only way to get rid of it is to have it removed. If it's fat, you can work it off, right? But if it's true breast tissue, you actually have to have the surgery to have it removed. But it happened in a different life phase. You cannot give a guy to stostromy replacement therapy and be like, hey, you're going to get boobs. It's just not going to happen. I have a guy, he's 360 pounds. He's very obese. He has, you know, secondary hypogonatism because, you know, his fat just eats up everything. And his brain's kind of under functioning. And, you know, kids aren't really on the table for him anymore. He's in his early 40s. He has actually some degree of primary as well. And, you know, this is like the perfect guy. So he's gotten that a boxing drum. He is like the perfect candidate for TRT. He needs it because, you know, but is he going to get, is he going to get boobs? I mean, he already has them. Like, you know what I mean? They're, they are already. Right. Is he going to give it, or are they going to get more because I'm giving him testosterone? No. That's going to stop the breast growth that he has. Because now I'm going to give him adequate testosterone. But even sure, he'll aromatize some of that testosterone to estrogen more so than like somebody with less body fat. But his levels of testosterone will be high enough to be inhibitory at that point, right? They're not going to be a hundred. They're going to be, you know, 800. Right. We'll stop any of that process from happening. So that's, that's kind of, I think the misnomer here is like that guy already got it from whenever he was just not doing anything. He's not going to get anything more from testosterone. Yeah. I also want to echo this too because this is kind of going to be part of the lecture. There was a study done. I want to say it was 2022. I have it. I don't have it in front of me, but I have it in my notes to go over for when I do that video on Gynos with the visual aids. But it was a study on male to female transition on breast growth size over a, over a 12 month period. And I want to say the study was done with about 260 odd male to female transition. Right. Now these particular individuals were, what have been given a G-R-H, agonist or antagonist, which would stop the brain from producing any, Gynatotropins and then therefore, castrate them. So no testosterone production. So these people are going to be castrated. And then they were also given estrogen and progesterone as the female hormones go. They're trying to transition to be women. Right. So we've created this perfect storm of breast growth, right? We're going to have all the other hormones, roughly, maybe minus, perlact into a degree. But we're going to have estrogen. And since we have estrogen, we're going to have somewhat of IGF1. We're going to have progesterone because they're taking it. And of those 260-sant participants, only 3.6% of those participants grew breast tissue up to an 8 cup. So think about that for that sit. Okay. So it's not even like under like perfect conditions that anybody's going to grow breast tissue. Right. Okay. And of which, that breast tissue growth was all done in the first, most of it was in the first six months and almost no growth after that on almost all the participants. So I actually have to get this study up. And I might be off on slightly on some of the data because I'm trying to paraphrase from my memory. But that is the gist of it right there. So I think at least from a TRT perspective, it's a bodybuilding thing that kind of bled over. But even from a bodybuilding thing, if those guys are taken adequate testosterone, they are not getting gynecumastia from testosterone. Just not happening. So then I guess the next thing, I guess we would bring up because if people are talking about gyno and excess estrogen, where does the excess estrogen go? You have to understand and I think this is really hard for some people to understand. This is kind of the one thing we do over our consults. And that's to understand kind of a saturation model, which is also in dealing with testosterone and prostate cancer. Testosterone is an endocrin hormone, right? It's made by your testes. And in two or less or extent by your adrenal glands. So about 3% of your testosterone comes from your adrenal glands. That's how women make testosterone, right? And then get it 97% from their testes, okay? Testosterone is meant to be systemic. It's meant to go everywhere. One, it has to act on endogen receptors. Two, it needs to get turned into other things, notably astralial and DHT, okay? We have five-offer inductance. So testosterone wears many hats, okay? So to speak. Estrogen is not an endocrin hormone. We do not have ovaries. We only have testes. So how do we get it? It comes from testosterone. Well then where was it made? Very specific places. We call that tissue specific, okay? Bone, pituitary gland, liver, prostate, testes. These are places that aromatization occurs where testosterone gets converted into estrogen, okay? Therefore, estrogen receptors, you have two types, alpha and beta, exist only at certain places. They don't exist like androgen receptors that are everywhere, okay? The estrogen receptors are only at target places in your body or estrogen is needed, okay? So it's a very focused hormone. We call estrogen an intra-cran and paracran hormone. Intracran means inside the cell, paracran roughly means around the outside of said tissue, okay? So let's take an area that aromatizes. Let's take your pituitary gland because we were talking about that already, okay? And if we were to look at the pituitary gland, we're going to see that it has estrogen alpha receptors there. And what happens is testosterone will enter those cells because remember, it's systemic, it goes everywhere. There's those cells, specifically the endoplasmic retakeable where it goes in and it's converted to estrogen, it emerges outside of that, portion of that emerges as estrogen. It's going to look for a receptor in that area inside the cell, which there should be one there because it's an intra-cran hormone at that point. That's how it gets converted, okay? And if there's one available, it's going to take it. Now there's more than one receptor inside the cell, right? But there's still a finite amount of estrogen receptors, meaning you only have a certain amount, okay? So what's going to happen is estrogen is going to take the receptor spot if it's available. Here's the thing. aromatization is a continuous process, right? Like it doesn't just send in like one molecule testosterone and then it's like, okay, we're done. Like it's a continuous process, right? It's happening all the time, right? So if I increase your testosterone by giving you more testosterone, you're going to have more testosterone that's going around everywhere, right? All these places, right? So you're getting all this testosterone to enter these cells, okay? And it's a portion of that's going to get converted to estrogen. We're just going to make more estrogen because more testosterone's getting there, right? Okay. So what happens? It gets converted to estrogen. It then will bind to the receptor. And if there's another estrogen molecule there and another receptor, it'll take it. Now, if those receptors are full, that estrogen has nowhere to go. There's nowhere for it to bind. So what does it do? It leaves the cell, exits, okay? And now it's outside of the cell. Now it's a parachroren hormone, right? And it's going to cruise around that general area and it's going to look for a receptor on the outside of the cell or in that localized tissue because it needs to exert its effect on those receptors there. So it's going to take it, okay? And as we have more estrogen, right? As the inside saturates, now so the outside will start to saturate too. So it'll start to take receptor receptor receptor receptor receptor receptor receptor. Again, only a finite amount of receptors. These aren't infinite, okay? Right, okay. It does use the estrogen, so it will need a replacement at some point. But that's fine. And that happens at different rates, you know, depending on the receptor and wear tan, the body and the whole nine yards. But but you have estrogen there to do it. So then what happens if there's excess in that general area? It goes to the serum, right? And what do we measure when we measure an estradiol level? A serum estradiol level. Why did it go there? It's excess. It don't need it. It's waste, okay? So we look at a waste estrogen level. Here's the other thing. Estrogen can only exert its effects once it's bound to the receptor. So why are we like measuring a waste estrogen level of unbound estrogen and using it as sort of as a metric of being like, well, your estrogen is too high? Right. So when they check your estradiol, that's the waste that's what's just floating around. Is that it's excess estrogen that your body is not using at the level of what it's needed. Because remember, this is a very tissue specific hormone. It's not meant to be systemic. So if I'm drawing a systemic test, a gay serum, right? It's reflective of excess waste estrogen on the way out to be eliminated, excreted by the kidneys, essentially. Okay. Okay. So and what I mean by that is if it's in the serum, it's not doing anything. It's just hanging out. Right? If I want estrogen to do something, like, let's say, working the pituitary, it has to be on those receptors to elicit its effect. If it's not bound to a receptor, it's a nerve. Okay. It's just kind of hanging out doing its thing. So when we look at this value, what happens then is they're going to be like, all your estrogen came back high. It's 80 or 90 or whatever, 60 or whatever they want to call it. Right? And they're going to give you an aromatase inhibitor. Right? What does that do? An aromatase inhibitor will stop the whole aromatization process from happening at all. Okay. Meaning now the testosterone goes into the cell and it just leaves its testosterone. It doesn't get converted to estrogen. So then what happens to those receptors that needed the estrogen? Well, they use it, but there's no replacement. Okay. So the receptor uses the estrogen. And now there's to be a replacement and it has nowhere to be found. They shift, waiting for night shift to come in. Night shift doesn't show up. Right? Right? Because you took the AI. So what? What happens then? Well, we basically just turned you into a postman, a puzzle woman. You want to know how it feels? Ask a postman, a puzzle woman. They'll tell you. Right? And they tell you it sucks. They hate it. Right? You're going to gain weight. You're going to get moody. You know, you're going to get a rectal dysfunction. That's the big one. Right? Right. These are these are things that happen when that happen because they don't understand the point of having a serum, estradiol level. Right? And they're looking at it and a lot of people are going and they're not even saying like, how do you feel? They're just going, oh, it's 80 here, take this. Right. There's all the paper. Right. Or if you're like, how do you feel? They're like, well, I gained weight. They didn't gain weight from the estrogen. They gained weight from testosterone, potentially building muscle. You're going to hold more water from that anyway. And probably Al Dosterone stimulation as well, which happens when you first start an angel. Right? Okay. So because you're going to retain sodium and fluid because of that reason. So these are things that I think get overlooked and they blame it on estrogen. But it's not it has nothing to do with it. It's right. You know, and what we're going to do then is completely ruin everything else for you at the sake of, you know, not understanding why we need it in the first place. Right. So is there ever a time when an aromatase inhibitor is you would feel that is needed? Is there ever a scenario? There is no there's not because like, let's say you have breast tenderness. Okay. Or something that can develop that we consider an estrogen side. So to speak. Okay. It generally means your protocols wrong. Right. So we can just adjust your protocol and do that. And then also kind of putting these in the perspective as well. Sometimes prolactin can be a problem. Right. And it's not an estrogen problem. It's a prolactin problem. Okay. And we can manage prolactin. We don't want it to be too high. Notably because it can cause some issues with penile sensitivity. Okay. And prolactin, like it says, lactate, lactin. Okay. It's responsible for milk ducts. So that's what, you know, breast milk and everything. So could you have some breast tenderness if prolactin got a little bit too high? Sure. Yeah. But it doesn't necessarily mean it's estrogen's fault. Right. Okay. So and then what about like, so if is that the scene, is it hold true the same we just talked about for guys that use excessive amounts of testosterone like outside of T RT. You're talking like, you know, they shouldn't have the message. They shouldn't have to message manage the estrogen and all either. I think it's just a big misunderstanding. Now they may have to because if they're using the other synthetic antigens have to look at prolactin in addition to estrogen. Okay. So then they may have to do that, but they do not have to worry about estrogen. I think like it's got this nefarious appeal. Sure. No, it really just doesn't matter. A hundred percent at all. Just leave it alone. Even if 500 milligrams a week, leave it alone. Yeah. Okay. So I mean, because that's that's what everyone, this is the most the biggest misconception out there. People with the aromatase inhibitors and then the gyno and then and the funny thing is is that when you when I talk to guys, when they say something about it, I say, well, do you have gyno and they say, well, no, I don't want to get it. Right. It's the fear of developing and we just we just discussed that you cannot get it from testosterone. It's impossible. Right. And then the tenderness though, I know guys that say that but then that goes away. It does. It's temporary. And that's because remember, if you have a guy that's hypogonat, right. I don't know what I mean. Like he's got a low testosterone. Let's say it's like 250 or 200. He also doesn't have estrogen. Right. He's just not going to have a lot of it. He doesn't have a lot of testosterone. And let's say he's not obese. Right. Not not not super big. Let's just say he's kind of, I don't know, maybe slightly overweight, BMI 28 to 30. Right. Somewhere in that range. Okay. And you know, he has that it's it's not going to be an issue for him at all. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. That's um it's it's crazy that estrogen does get a bad rap. I mean, there's no question about it. You know, um, still to this day. I mean, no matter what, there will be people that you look on their thing. They're either training to be bodybuilders or whatever that when I post something, they will jump right in there and it'd be like it's different for everyone. You know, some guys need it. Some guys don't. So I'm like, you know, so I didn't know if guys that were using excessive amounts. Maybe it's different because T or T amounts you you shouldn't you shouldn't need it. You know, I mean, we should ask ourselves this too. Like so DHT for example is another intra-cran paracorn hormone. We don't measure DHT hardly at all. Why? Right. Why do we not measure DHT? Because if I measure DHT, it's going to be roughly, it's produced the same way estrogen is, but we don't ever hear about I got DHT sides. Right. Right. Or this sat in the other. You know, it's DHT seems to be fine. But but estrogen, no, it's not fun. You know, yeah. So when there is guys that run like that when they you see their estrogen levels or, you know, I think fifth like in the 50s is where people say they want their estrogen to be like and it's anything above 50. Because I remember one the first time I got blood work at that first clinic, it was 54 and they were like, whoa, whoa, you know, you're you're going to, you know, and then they immediately put me on, well, they put me on aromatics inhibitor right from the beginning. And there's there's no scientific basis for that whole like 10 to 1 ratio crap. That's the biggest loadable I've ever seen. Yeah. Like it just doesn't exist. Right. Right. Yeah. That is a common thing to people will say that it should be 10 to 1. Yeah. And it doesn't exist. And then what that you think it's a body building came from I don't know where it came from, but it's stupid. Came from somebody who makes a romantic inhibitors something. Yeah. They want to sell more of them. They want everybody to be on one. Right. Let's let's give you a drug use. a treat breast cancer, you know, to lower your estrogen. Yeah. Yeah. I think, from me personally, that was the biggest learning curve of being on TRT was, I mean, the testosterone is what it is. I mean, like, you want more of it, you get more of it. Okay. The estrogen part of it was really like the whole, like, I didn't realize that I needed, you know, as much as much estrogen as I do. A lot of guys don't. It's a female hormone and I don't need it. I'll also throw this out too. So I have hundreds of guys, I'm not hundreds. I have, you know, a good amount of guys in our clinic, not one of them are on an AI. Do you know how many complaints I get of estrogen? Zero. Zero. Right. Zero. None. Right. So, you know, if I did a study on that and I know other clinics that have thousands of patients, okay? And none of them are on AI's. And you know, how many guys there have problems? Zero. Right. So, if estrogen was such a problem, why are the clinics that aren't treating it not having problems? Right. Exactly. Like, exactly. Wouldn't it be a problem? Wouldn't I have patients calling me being like, my estrogen is the set or the other? I did some research for this thing. We don't have it because we educate them properly before we start TRT and they go, okay, yeah. And then they don't have problems because now they know that, you know, having an emotional day here and there is fine. Sure. It doesn't mean to ruin your estrogen. Right. So if guys are taking an aromatase inhibitor now, yeah, you just tell them that stop like that. But get thrown away. It's gone. You do not need it. You will, you're probably going to hate life for the next six to eight weeks. It's going to suck as you start to re-estrogenize everything. And I just went through this with two clients in our clinic. And but they're finally starting to bounce back and they're like bouncing back real good. Right. The one guy run into it, the gym. I ran into him and he actually had messaged me because we had changed his protocol from where he came. And he, he texted me and was like, I would say about a week to two weeks after we changed his protocol because he came and he was on a national zone. I'm like, you got to get rid of that stuff immediately. You don't get it. Yeah. And and he did. And he texted me and he's like, I feel awful. I have no desire to go to the gym. And he kind of had that feeling of like where you said that you, you went to the gym like he had to drag himself there. Right. And this guy is in great shape. Like he really is. Yeah. And he had to drag himself there. And I was like, just give it time. Trust the process. Give it to right. Right. Right. And I ran into him the gym last week. He's getting ready to have his fall upon it with us. And I'm like, how you feeling? He's like, dude, I feel great now. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, you know, it just, it had to work its way out. We had to get him to make more estrogen. We had to get those receptors saturated. Yeah. And and now he's, you know, and this guy doesn't have any estrogen side effects. Right. None. Yeah. I mean, I'm not in. I when I stopped the ED now it didn't go. It wasn't right away. But it was within a few weeks. The ED went away. And it was probably a month to six weeks when when I noticed something at the gym. Something was different. And then from that point on, it seemed like I've started to feel like I think this is what TRT supposed to feel like. Yeah. It was like I felt like it was like I had energy. When I woke up, I was like going through like what I was going to do today. And it was like, when I go to the gym, I'm going to blast my arms. Like I'm just going to blast these things. It's estimated that, you know, 50% of your benefits from TRT are estrogen. Right. So, you know, we lose so much by blocking it. Yeah. And and why would you? And it's kind of like an old wives tell we have to just kind of, yeah, hopefully dispel over time. Yeah. It's an uphill battle as you're well aware. Well, we we're winding down in time here, Josh, but let's just let's just cap this off with no more estrogen or no more estrogen blockers. No more. And then I guess no more, no more movies that make you cry. You got to watch Rambo. You got to watch the top gun. You might cry in Rambo. Oh, no, you're going to cry in top gun too and goose dies. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, it's got to be like a like a module of movies that you can just watch. Just like, like Robocop stuff like that. Crank. Right, right. Exactly. We're just like chronto whole time. What's it? John Wick movies. There's like, oh yeah, John Wick would be would be great. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like there's 15 million bolts and none of them hit him. Right. Just just man movies. You can't that's what you got to watch. We movies with low emotional attachment. Right. And in that way if somebody does die, you're like, I didn't care about them anyway. Yeah, not that guy. He sucked. Yeah, he was terrible. You can be happy that he's gone. All right. Well, listen, I think this is just as important as our first episode of Test Ossaron. This is just as important because I did not know and I don't think a lot of guys understand the estrogen part of TRT. Yeah. And I hope that they they listen our podcast here. And I'm sure there's going to be a healthy degree of skepticism. Right. And that's fine. You know, I stand behind it. And if you want me to pull some data, I'm happy to do that. Yeah. You know, so it's not like I'm just out here whaling around just my vast appeal. Well, we're going to definitely do more of these and definitely do estrogen. What what I do, ten of them about estrogen. Oh, yeah. For sure. We can do a deep dive in one and that might be a long episode that we maybe have to chop up and like several pieces, right? So be it. Because this stuff can be a little challenging for people to understand. Right. I mean, it's easy for me to understand because that's literally what I do. It's why I tell people that you have to find a qualified provider. Yeah. People say I can do it on my own. I'm like, man, you have to have some you have to really know this game to do this on your own and do it correctly. Like, I mean, yeah, can we all just get tested and injected? Sure. But can you decipher the blood work and why you have ED and why you know, like you, there's all these things that go into. I mean, I can probably go to house on my own. Right. It wouldn't be the code. Right. So that's that's where I mean, we everyone could think, oh, I can do it. I can do that. But I tell everyone the key is finding a provider that knows what the hell they're doing. Yeah. And you will, it will, and it may cost more than the other place, which you get what you pay or hopefully in the long run, you are going to get maximum benefits and you're going to thank God that you did it. Yeah. You know, so Virtus Men's Health, right, Josh? Yep. As of right now, still Virtus Men's Health, we will be adjusting that to Virtus Health Opti, Virtus Health Optization here, probably sometime in February. So it's going to probably, when you change the name, it's going to take me a year to notice that. It's just like when we change the year, I've still been writing, you know, I mean, 2024. And then it'll probably, that usually goes until September. Yeah. I'll start to get, I'll get 25 down and then a few months. We'll still have the men's health website. It'll just redirect to the new one. Okay. Good. So it'll still be there. So if people still go to Virtus Men's Health dot com, it's still going to exist. I still have the domain. It's just going to go to the new one. It's more reflective of our expanded services that we offer. All right. That's all. Well, Josh, thank you very much. This is very informative. I think