2 Pastors DEBATE If Christians Should Watch Movies About WITCHCRAFT & MAGIC?! | Live Free with Josh Howerton

- Should Christians watch magic, witchcraft, and demonic-themed movies? - Here's a key question. Am I truly free to stop? So if I love this TV series, or this movie series, or this book, and I begin to feel convicted, do you really think you could stop? If not, it is beginning to have a hold on you, and because of that, I think you should stop. - What you consume most is what you conform to. Romans 12:2, "Do not be conformed to this world, "but be transformed by the renewal of your mind." Check out your inputs and then evaluate your outputs. - Well, hey, Live Free Nation. Before we jump into the episode, this podcast is recorded right here at Lake Point Church in Dallas, Texas, but the Live Free Nation is spread all over the country and all around the world, so if you've been watching and thinking, "Man, I wish I could be part of something like this," we wanna invite you to take a simple next step, and that is join us for church online. Every weekend, we stream our services live on YouTube, Facebook, and our church online platform, and it's more than just watching a service. There are live hosts in the chat, prayer teams ready to stand with you, and people all around the world, worshiping together in real time. And so whether you're exploring the faith, coming back to church, or just looking for a place to start, church online is a great way to jump in and experience what God is doing here at Lake Point. We would love to see you in the chat this weekend, and now, enjoy the podcast. Well, hey, welcome back to a bonus episode of the Live Free Podcast. Man, this episode's gonna be a little different. I'm here, my name is Carlos Orazco, and today I'm here with Chad G. Paul C., Paul Cunningham. - What's up, bro? - What's going on, bro? - You good? - What you doing? - Man, I love you. You got the camo shirt, I got the camo hat. - Let's go, man. - We're gonna be hunting pretty soon together, by the way. - This is gonna be, we're gonna be hunting? - We're gonna be hunting pretty soon. - Oh, sure. - A lot of people don't know you and I went hunting together last year. - One time. - Didn't get anything. - Nothing. - It's gonna change this year, bro. - Okay. - We're gonna get you an animal. - Well, I'm ready, clearly. - Come on. - Hey. - Let's go. - Today's gonna be a little bit of a different episode, so for people joining right now, this is not your usual Monday Live Free episode. We're test driving these quote unquote bonus episodes where basically they're gonna be a little shorter. Sometimes it's gonna be maybe, I don't know, 20 minutes. Other times it's gonna be like four minutes. We're trying to pick one, maybe two, but mostly one question and we wanna zoom in. We wanna go a little deeper and basically, this is gonna be the bonus episode of like, what didn't make it to the Monday Live Free episode? - That's right. - So people know this. Obviously, every single Monday Live Free episode, we ask, "Hey, what didn't make it to the sermon?" Occasionally, Paul, there's a lot more to say and we run out of time. - Yeah, and so some of these might be questions that we run out of time for 'cause we do. There's so much we don't cover, so even sometimes I'll see in the comments, "Well, why didn't you guys talk about this?" And a lot of times we were going to, but we just ran out of time. - We literally run out of time. - So if there's anything like that that you hear about as we're discussing it on the podcast, man, send it our way. Hey, could you guys bring this up on that midweek? - That's right. - But other times, we might take a topic that's huge in the culture of that moment or maybe that time of the year or maybe it's just like what we call an evergreen question, something that people are always asking and we may dive into those and like you said, sometimes it may only take us 20 minutes to respond to it. Sometimes, like today, it may take us closer to like 35 to 40 minutes depending on how tricky or nuanced it is. - Or more. - Or you may just make this-- - Paul's gonna try to trap me, that's what he's saying. - Today, Carlos is going to beat me down with the Bible and it's gonna probably only last 15 minutes 'cause I'm gonna submit after a while. - This is gonna be really interesting. - Yeah, so all it means is like, what are we covering today? - Yeah, so before we go there, hold on. So again, we're test driving this, so for people joining right now, the way we know this is helpful, if you go on YouTube or Spotify, let us know in the comments section if this is helpful. Also, the way we know it just by engagement, like if you wanna share, like and comment, that tells us that this is actually helping people and again, we're test driving it right now, so we're trying to figure out if we're gonna do it long term or if this is like, ah, that's not the great idea or not the best idea. - Maybe one more caveat, especially if people have never seen an episode with just you and me. So for a little bit of behind the scenes perspective, when you and I are hanging out, like even off the podcast together, we have fun by just literally going back and forth and bantering and debating, often on things we actually agree on, but we're just fighting for fun. - We argue a lot. - Yeah, but for fun, for fun. - Sometimes. - Even like, we went to a Cowboys game a few weeks ago and I think in the car, we started talking about two or three different theological topics that we pretty much agreed on, but we were just going back and forth for fun. And so just know, especially I'd say on this episode, 'cause we land in different spots, but on other weeks, we're like, man, are like Carlos and Paul still friends? Yes, this is just, when it's just the two of us, we have a little bit more friendly back and forth and we kind of make some jokes at each other's expense. Just know that's normal when it's just the two of us. - And if you have a question that you're like, yeah, like you, Paul, you said this, but if you have a question that you would like us to cover for future test drives, let us know in the comments section as well. Okay, so here's where we're going today. Here's the question. And by the way, I didn't check with you before, so maybe you disagree with the framing of the question, but I think it's fine. The question for today, as we are in the month of Halloween, is should Christians watch magic, witchcraft, and demonic themed movies? - Ooh, ooh, okay. - Is that fair? - Okay, here we go. I like that. - Is that a fair question? - Movies that have magic and witchcraft. So movies like? - Harry Potter. - Harry Potter, that's a big one. We may have been framing it around. Should Christians watch Harry Potter? That may be an easy one to pick on. But like there's a movie coming out next month called, I think, Hexed. - Hexed. - You know, things like that. But you also got like- - Wicked. - Wicked. You've got like kids movies like Hocus Pocus, which is really big at the time of Halloween. But also you've got magic where maybe it's not the central thing in the movie, but it is in the movie, like Lord of the Rings, Chronicles of Narnia. So even like there, it's not just movies, it's books. So should we watch those or in the case of a book, should we read those? - So here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna first start by sharing some helpful biblical frameworks as to like how to think as a Christian, not just about this particular topic, but really about any kind of entertainment. Especially, obviously we're gonna focus on Halloween themed ones. Paul, you will share here what the apostle Paul said in Romans chapter 13 and 14 on how do Christians disagree well. We're gonna take us through and we're gonna take a second and basically we're gonna pick on Harry Potter and we're gonna use it as a case study. And I'm gonna tell you what I think about it. You're gonna tell me what you think. And we obviously disagree on how we see this. And we'll figure out who's right and wrong. - Like right now, even if you're watching this right now, go ahead and vote for where you think each of us are gonna land. - Oh no, you gotta wait for the argument. What are you talking about? - I gotta wait for the argument? Okay, I was just trying to drive some interaction, bro. But then what we're gonna do at the end, and I think if we stick around for this, because there's gonna be some people that probably have been more in line up with you and more in line up with me. And by the way, that's part of what we kind of wanna show, that that's okay. But what we're both gonna do at the end is say, hey, regardless of where you land on this, whether you're coming just for yourself or as a parent, we're gonna give some good questions and thoughts about, hey, here's some things you need to be thinking about when you're thinking about what you should watch, read, take in. So we're gonna land on that at the end to say, hey, no matter whether you agree or disagree with us on particular things, we can all agree that we should be thinking about some specific things as we're watching what we watch. - If we have time, we're gonna rapid fire real quick some popular movies, just go with yes or no, and then we'll just, it's gonna be fun if we have time. And then we're gonna close with pastoral thoughts as well. So let me start here, Paul. Let me share one of the most helpful frameworks that I think I've heard on really Christians and culture and how to see entertainment and culture in general. So I'm pretty sure I heard this from Pastor Mark Driscoll, I think over 10, 15-ish years. - Yeah, maybe. I think I heard it around like 15 to 20 years ago, yeah. - I've heard other people share it. This is who I heard it from first. So here's, if you're a Christian, here's what you need to know. When it comes to culture, you can do three things. You can reject, receive, or redeem. So let me explain real quick what these mean. So one, if you're a Christian, we reject what is sinful. Ephesians chapter five, verse 11 says, "Hey, take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them." Which by the way, this is what I'm hoping to do today. Paul might disagree, but that's okay. Let me give you an example. So obviously the Bible says some things are sinful, or sin, sin separates you from God. And so again, sexual immorality, gossip, false religion. If something is inconsistent with who you are as a Christian, it's okay to reject those things. That's the principle. - So can I give an example? The idea here is that even if in a particular culture, it is acceptable, we as Christians have to reject it. And by the way, this is a dilemma that Christians have had to face since the beginning. I read a book in the last couple of years on this, of how different eras of Christians had to wrestle with different things. And one, in the early Roman empire, it was very common for men and women to bathe together in the same spot, naked, nude. And a Bishop actually- - Who did this? - In the early Roman empire, this was a very common thing of men and women bathed in the same place as completely naked. A Bishop wrote a letter basically to Christians saying, "We do not do that. That isn't proper for us." - We reject that. - We reject that, we reject that. So it's not that they rejected everything from Roman culture, but they said, "Hey, that particular thing, we reject." So at every point in history and in every culture in the world, Christians have to say, "Hey, there might be elements of the culture that even if they think it's acceptable, we can't accept it." We have to reject it. Okay, so there's reject. - We reject what is sinful. Number two, we receive what is good. Philippians 4:8 says, "Whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, think about these things." So as Christians, man, we believe God is good. We believe his creation is good. And we like beauty, creativity, truth, excellence, and goodness wherever we can find it. Even if it's not necessarily explicitly a quote unquote Christian thing, if it is true, if it is beautiful, if it is excellent, God, it's from God. - Yeah. - And so we receive what is good. Any other thoughts on that? - No, that's a good one, easy. That's usually the easy one. We receive what is good. And number three, we redeem what can be used for God's glory. So this is my favorite passage of all time in scripture. 1 Corinthians 10:31 says, "Whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, you do it for the glory of God." So something that was not necessarily originally meant for good has the potential of being used for, for a different purpose. And that's called redeeming something. So for example, let me, so social media. - Yeah. - People could look at social media right now and be like, man, that's a terrible place to be at. You know, it's hurting society and it's true. There's a bunch of things from social media that can be detrimental to a society to a generation and yet i believe christians have a responsibility to get in there and redeem the purpose of social media so what people use the internet or social media for things that are evil christians can get in there and use them for things that are good that's called redeeming something and what's tricky about the redeeming category this actually leads well into our next kind of helpful framework to keep in the back of our minds as we're discussing today's question is that reject is usually pretty obvious in terms of what we have to reject receive although not so much for some but sure yeah it gets into this receive is usually pretty obvious like you know i don't have to pray whether i should receive a beautiful national park it's beautiful god made it for good i can go and enjoy it that's right um redeem though usually has a mix of both good and bad and so we might have to reject part of what is bad but then we can receive part of what is good or change it and redeem it so you gave some good examples but another one and we might refer to this again later in this episode is the apostle paul in the book of acts quotes a pagan poet who writes a poem and it says in this poem it says we are his offspring here's the tricky thing the poet in the original context was referring to zeus a pagan god which by the way paul says in other parts of the bible that these pagan deities are actually demons and so he takes that and you think okay that's bad like is paul advocating that we believe in zeus and worship no instead what he's saying is hey your own poets have said that we are god's offspring he's like in a sense you're right but in another sense he said hey you're wrong it's not zeus it's actually the true and living god that i'm here to proclaim to you so that's an example of how paul could actually take something that had a lot of bad in it but redeem it and end up using it for good but here's the tricky thing and he uses it to share the gospel by the way yes he's telling people about jesus yes he literally used it what's tricky about this one is that there might be certain things that some christians are more comfortable redeeming that others aren't that leads us into another helpful framework in terms of how we have these discussions and why sometimes it can be really tough for people to have them and that is man christians have to figure out like what are we supposed to do and that's what the biblical dilemma is and that there's some places in scripture where it says things that are very clear hey we should do this or we should not do that and other places in scripture it actually leaves it open that some christians may be feel convicted not to do something but another christian can do the same thing in fact what makes this most tricky is that this is actually chapter after chapter in the book of romans one chapter after another i've got some verses for us that we'll put up on the screen for those who are watching via video for those who aren't you can just listen along in romans 13 paul gives a list of instructions of things that hey there's no room for debate we can't agree to disagree this is just it it says let us walk properly is in the daytime not in orgies in other words don't go have an orgy don't get debate that uh or drunkenness not in sexual morality and sensuality but then what i love is you know at first is talking about like very obvious sins that most people would agree on but then he says also not in quarreling or jealousy what some people would think of as low-level sins he's like hey there's no space for that and so even guess what if you say hey well my conscience doesn't convict me of those things the apostle paul and god through the apostle paul say i don't care you don't get to do those things those are off limits for us as christians but put on the lord jesus christ and make no provision for the flesh to gladify its desire so in romans 13 we get very specific things we can't do go one chapter over and he's even pastor josh said i believe in a recent podcast and sermon we have to remember in the original text there were no chapters and verses so this is literally just a few verses later paul says this as for the one who is weak in faith welcome him but not to quarrel over opinions one person in christianity is not to eat anything including meat while the weak person eats only vegetables let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats so you had some christians who they thought they could eat whatever they want another group thought that if you ate meat or a specific kind of meat you were sinning and so you had one group who was passing judgment the other saying hey you guys are sinning for eating this the other group is saying well whatever we're free in christ and you're a bunch of self-righteous hypocrites and so it can be hard in fact there's some areas that are very clear that no christian should do there's other areas that we call areas of conscience where it might be wrong for you to do it if your conscience is convicting you of it but that doesn't make it wrong for everyone to do it following so far so god actually gives some examples please do please do so like for example um let's even go over to what it says here in romans 13 carlos is it a sin to get drunk yes okay is it a sin to have a drink not necessarily why do you say not necessarily because the bible doesn't say that having a drink is a sin yeah but for some people if their conscience convicts them that they shouldn't drink either because they have a history with alcohol or just for them they just feel like if they do it it's wrong is it sin if those people drink yes and then later in that passage romans 14 paul's talking to both groups of saying hey if that is you don't drink but also don't judge those who do drink as long as they're drinking responsibly but then he would also say to those who do drink hey don't drink in a way that makes those people stumble in their faith or that's wrong too let me give some other examples okay these will be silly but just try to give you some other examples track with me for a second i think this will also i'm going to give my hand away a little bit this will help us track with where it gets tricky when we begin talking about works of fiction either in reading or in watching carlos would it be sinful for a man to kill 77 people out of revenge for killing his puppy for one of those people killing his puppy would that be sinful uh yeah it would be yes it would be yeah i know where you're going no one should go out and kill 77 people for killing your puppy or your dog that's right would it be sinful to watch john wick which depicts that very story not necessarily okay not by the way you're a fan of john wick it's okay hold on bro i'm about to answer the question uh i am a fan i've seen all the john wicks uh and uh i do i do like him okay by the way i didn't make up that 77 number i looked it up and for sure enough that's how many people he kills in the first movie obviously because uh it's a little bit more i think his kill count is in the high 400s okay okay it's it's pretty good yeah i would nuance that well no i was actually going to say when you say not necessarily help nuance that because i think this is going to help set up for some of the things we're going to do later with this other question why do you say not necessarily that hey it's definitely it's a sin to go do it but it wouldn't be necessarily a sin to watch the movie where it shows that guy doing it one yeah i'd have to go back and check but i think when it comes to like movies like uh john wake or like the equalizer they're all basically the same movie uh there's a sense of justice like the people that are being uh killed in this case or uh they're bad guys yes like there's like mafia or like people that are like deep in corruption and justice and so here comes one guy and be like well i'm gonna put an end to your injustice and so uh again that would be an example of a redeeming aspect of the movie i love that you said that that's exactly where i was gonna go is what you just did is you said i do not approve of murder and i'm not like sitting there glorying and murdering by the way if you were like if you're there as a christian thing and oh i like that he's just maybe a problem that would be a problem that should be a that should be an example that if your conscience isn't convicting you that's an issue but what you can't say is hey there is maybe a broad theme of saying hey like evil people being brought to justice of some kind i'm not going to say revenge is good but that broad theme is good even if i don't approve of everything that gets it there yeah it's the justice agree you're right and we can distinguish that when we see that hey the bible actually forbids you to to take uh personal vengeance but there's a sense in inside of you that when you do feel like man something feels wrong and then you see that justice satisfied it's like that that's a good thing exactly and so like right there's an example of redeem we have to take some of the good from it but also leave out the bad i'll use a personal example for another one this would be silly but would it be sinful for a high school chemistry teacher who gets cancer and needs to support his family as he thinks he's going to die to start selling crystal meth on the side would that be sinful it would be illegal it would be illegal which then would definitely would mean it would be sinful and addition to all the harm that would cause others but man is it sinful if i like to watch the show breaking bad which literally depicts that exact same story honestly i have not seen the full show so it's hard for me to speak on it i would go and say it would be i would literally say exactly what you said you'd say no not necessarily not necessarily it depends hey if i'm watching that and i'm beginning to root for the bad things he's doing or think he's a good guy hey that might actually not be good for me to watch but part of the show and i won't try to give too many spoilers away for those who haven't seen it and by the way i'd be careful to watch it this is part of what we're saying this is not everyone should watch these things is part of what you get to see is is sin's effects you see him by the end of the saying this is where sin will lead you i can redeem that part of it make it good while leaving out the bad but guess what it's watching breaking bad led people to some bad areas or desensitize their conscience they shouldn't watch it so my point is this and that's where that's where i think we can we can debate i'm not saying i don't i haven't seen breaking bad completely i just saw like the first episode and i stopped yeah my point in doing this is that it shows how man on the one hand doing certain things can be definitely sinful but when we start getting into fiction works efficient it can get tricky because now we're going and maybe in an area of conscience and and i want to actually wrap up this section then we can get into the specific thing of magic and movies and sorcery and witchcraft and movies i want to put up a spectrum i think on the screen because when we're talking about areas of conscience in my experience people fall in one of two sides um if you again if you're just listening to this just imagine a line across the screen and there's a line down the middle and into two sides one side is more restrictive and even on that side by the way there's a spectrum so there's some people that are extremely restrictive in an area of conscience so going back to alcohol like nope i will never drink a sip i won't go into a bar i'm not going anywhere near it whatsoever and actually i'll get back in a minute to some watch outs these people need to think about not just with alcohol but with anything other people are more permissive they don't feel that restriction it's not wrong for them if they have a drink or if they're let's go to a breaking batter john wick some people say no i cannot watch those movies and they would even say you know what i don't think anyone should because for them if they were to watch that they feel awful because it depicts murder and violence and so on and so forth other people saying you know what i can watch it and i can take the good and leave out the bad so you have more restrictive people and more permissive people here's what i want to say and then let's dive into the specific topic of the day and then you get to lay out your devastating case of why i'm why i'm wrong and you're you're right yeah and all those things. Anyways, here's what I would say. Some watch out for people on either side. And again, this is not just for things like should Christians watch Harry Potter? This is for things like any type of show, video games, music, anything like that. Grand Theft Auto. Is if you're a person who you have an area of conscience that's more restrictive, you need to watch out for a few things. Number one, that you don't become judgmental of those who are more permissive. That you don't think, oh, well, those people are sinful. If not sinful, they're definitely not as holy as me. Yeah, I'm better. Yeah, and also, usually the hard thing is the more restrictive people seem to have more clear Bible verses or principles on their side. So this can be hard for them. Because like, well, wait a second, they're disobeying the Bible. You got to be really careful not to judge those who have a more permissive stance on this. Consequently, on the other side- By the way, we're not talking about sinning. No, no. We're permissive. Oh, yeah, I do this, you know, single guy with a girlfriend. That's not what it's about. No, no, no. On the more permissive part, here's the watch out for them. You can also be judgmental. You can think, oh, those stuck-up, self-righteous Pharisees. Yeah, I think he's better than me. They think they're better. You think you're better than me? I don't even want to ask you if you know what movie that comes from. No, but it sounded Italian. Is that- Oh, that was like a little bit of a compliment. Wait, is that a- That's not Italian. It's more of a- I'll explain it later. Yeah, a little bit of a- Yeah, there's a few movies and references I was referring to. Anyways- Is that Robert De Niro? No, not at all. Actually, he may have said that in one movie. All right, we're getting distracted. This is what you and I do when it's just you and I together. Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay, go ahead. People, I hope they think this is funny because you and I think this is. Anyways, here's another issue. If you have a more permissible stance towards an area of conscience, you need to be really careful that you at least do have a line somewhere because if you get to the point where nothing ever pricks your conscience, you have one of two options. You're either as holy and mature as Jesus or your conscience is numb. And so if you do have a more permissible stance towards whether it's magic in movies or violence in movies or drinking or whatever it is, at some point, if you don't have any lines you want to cross, that should be a flag that maybe you've gone too far in that direction. But what's fun though then is that when Christians are doing life together on these issues, we may be in different spots. And because of that, sometimes we can have disagreements. And in fact, today, you and I lean on different spots or different lines of the spectrum on this issue. So here's what we'll do. Like, Carlos, why don't you lay out in terms of if someone asks you, hey, like if someone, if I came up to you and I said, hey, Carlos, can I as a Christian or should I as a Christian watch Harry Potter or movies that have magic and sorcery? Where would you land? What would you say? Let me just say one more thing on the little chart here that you brought. On the side of permissible and restrictive is the terms that you used. So, you know, Christians usually tend to ask questions such as, is it a sin to blank? Is it a sin to watch John Wick? Is it a sin to watch Harry Potter? Is it a sin to, and then they'll just fill in the blank. Sometimes, Paul, honestly, that's the wrong question. 1 Corinthians 10, 23, Paul says, all things are lawful, but not all things are helpful. All things are lawful, but not all things build up. And in this passage, he seems to be quoting a slogan that was going around in the Corinthian church of basically saying, all things are lawful. We have freedom in Christ to basically do whatever we want. Paul is saying, yeah, that's what people say, but actually not all things are helpful, which means something can be permissible. When you look at that chart and you see permissible on this side, and you're like, well, I land more on the permissible side because I'm a little more mature on this or that, perhaps, or whatever, and you think something is permissible, something could be permissible, that same thing might not be helpful. We've said this on a recent podcast, but it applies here too. There's a difference between can I and should I. That's exactly. So even as we're getting into this conversation, there's a difference we gotta realize between can a Christian, but also should you as a Christian do that? Which is very important. Now, with that said, let me give you, before we go into the Harry Potter thing, let me give you four questions that I usually ask, and this does not just apply to, Harry Potter, this literally applies to every piece of entertainment or art form that I consume. And I wanna be intentional. We wanna be mindful. We're not passive consumers as Christians. We are intentionally discerning, hey, is this good for me? Is this shaping me in a way that is helping me become more like Jesus? Those are questions that we ask. And so first question real quick that I ask whenever I'm consuming music, movies, whatever it is, hey, number one, what type of content am I consuming? So if you are on social media and all of a sudden you go on, for example, and you see that when you go on X, people are not friendly, generally speaking, everybody's like hating on each other. Like everybody's trying to own the other person. - No. - And then like people are angry and bitter and complaining. And all of a sudden you're there and you feel like, man, you start feeling like a little bit of anxiety in you or like, oh man, I'm now becoming the bitter person. And if that's you, I would say to you, hey, maybe it's time for you to take a little bit of a break from social media. And you're like, but it's not a sin. It's not a sin for me on social media. You're right. It's not a sin. It's also not helpful. Again, so you need to be asking whatever it is you're consuming, whether it's music, whatever it is, what type of content? Is it leading you to become something that you are not necessarily wanting to become? That's one. Number two, what is it glorifying? Somebody might be listening to, I'm just thinking out loud here, for a Taylor Swift song. And you know, it's catchy and super melodic, whatever. It's a beautiful piece of art, but it's glorifying betrayal, heartbreak, revenge, glamorizing, brokenness in a relationship. Again, is it a beautiful piece of art? Yes. Is it a catchy song? Yes. Is it fun? Perhaps. Is it glorifying something that basically the Bible says, hey, that's not who you are called to be. And so if so, what is it glorifying? Same thing you could say applies to a story or a movie or whatever. Number three, who is the author and what's his intent or purpose? So bro, people don't realize this. Movies are sermons. - Good. - TV shows, songs you're listening to and that you have on repeat, they're discipling you. - Yes. - Everything that you consume is shaping who you are. It's either forming you to become more like Jesus or deforming you from the character of Jesus. So show me what podcast you're listening to today. I bet you, I can have a good idea of who you are. Because again, it's shaping you. Now, what you need to understand is when you consume art or entertainment, there's somebody behind it, the creator of it with an agenda. Whether you realize it or not. So I want to know when I listen to any music, man, I want to know who's the artist. Generally speaking, I'm curious, especially when it comes to some of these conversations, I want to know who's the director, who's behind. So let me give you an example. This is pretty recent. So you know that there's a new Narnia movie coming out, right? - Yes, I do. We'll have to dive into that one another time. I've got a lot of questions and thoughts. - So for people that don't know, there's a new Netflix Narnia movie coming out. So what you'll see on social media is that Aslan, and this is confirmed, Aslan will be voiced by a woman and it will be inspired, Aslan will be inspired by David Bowie. So you're looking at that and you're like, huh, this is the Narnia, you mean that the one from C.S. Lewis. So you're telling me that the Christ figure in Narnia will be inspired by a British artist who identified as bisexual and experimented with androgynous gender expression. Why would that be? Oh, here's why. Well, the director is the same director of the movie Barbie. Like all of a sudden that makes a lot of sense, why? Because whoever's behind it as a creator, they have an agenda, they have intentions, they have a vision, a worldview of what is good and what is not good. And so to a degree, sometimes more explicit than others, that's gonna leak into the piece of art. And then what we should not do as Christians is to just passively consume it. - And real quick, it doesn't mean we can't take anything good from those who are non-Christians. 'Cause I said earlier, the Apostle Paul took something from a pagan poet who didn't have good motives. Yet, what we do have to know is you have to be way, way, way more careful and mindful when that is the case. I think that's what we both say is like saying, hey, you gotta really turn your thinking cap on whenever you're watching that if it's the wrong person making it. - Which leads me to the last question. Is it redeeming that which the Bible might call a sin? So for example, to your point, Paul, what you don't wanna do either is basically just see everything through the lens of sin, sin, sin, sin, sin, sin, no, I'm good. We live in a broken world and the Bible talks about something called common grace, which means that God can use a non-Christian to bring about a beautiful piece of art or a movie that is good or a story. Again, maybe they're not Christian. Maybe they're not trying to point you to the Bible, but within it, you can find elements that are true and worthy and potentially it's a redeemable thing that you can actually consume and be blessed by it. And it's not necessarily, quote unquote, a Christian song or a Christian movie or whatever. The easiest example would be superhero movies. Again, most superhero movies, Marvel, for example, they're not necessarily, it's not a Christian coming together, unfortunately, coming together, that I know of at least, and saying, okay, how do we do this thing and point to Jesus? That's not happening, but we can watch these movies and be like, that's justice, that's a hero, that's somebody who is accepting responsibility and sacrificing themselves out of love for other people. That is a very biblical, righteous, good, virtuous thing. And so again, is it redeeming that which the Bible calls a sin? Maybe a movie has elements that are like, well, wow, we would disagree, we would say that's a sin. Back to John Wick, I would argue. Yes, killing a bunch of people because of your puppy, that's not good, that's a sin. But there's a redeeming aspect of justice to it. And so that's a question that I wanna ask. - And with that, and then we can finally get your view of Harry Potter and you can begin to put me in my place. - Sure, he, by the way, he's ready. He's about to trap me here in just a couple seconds. I know it so much, I know it so much. - I felt so nervous about it today. I felt so nervous about it today because you definitely have the high ground 'cause you'll show some verses here in a little bit. And it's like, how do I respond to these? But we'll get to that in a minute. I do wanna go ahead caveat now and i think we've hinted at this enough but i at least want to say it now and we'll come back on this end as we're talking about movies like john wick breaking bad hair bothers you really got to think through hate just because you might be able to redeem um john wick i'm not going to tell your age i was about to as someone in their 30s doesn't mean that a 13 year old should watch john wick um just because by the way even like i love i love missable versus helpful i love marvel movies i love avengers end game tony stark at the end laying down his life and at this point i feel like paul is full alert you've had you've had time you've had plenty of time you've had plenty of time yes but i wouldn't show that to a six-year-old they're not ready for that there's too much mature so again i want to say in part of this is even though some things can be redeemed you do have to keep asking the questions hey what is appropriate for each individual person at their individual stage of life and their stage of their faith i want to go and throw that in there real fast permissible yep helpful that's good there's a difference can i should i that's right okay so now let's dive in we go harry potter okay uh let me start here before i give you what i think about it uh where we disagree so first of all you got to clarify this the bible is not against the use of imagination epic fantasy creativity fiction stories supernatural themes the bible is not against those things necessarily but it is against witchcraft divination sorcery necromancy and again when we have these conversations because we're not just going to talk about harry potter we're going to talk about some of these other things that also have elements of like quote-unquote magic and what does that even mean we have to define what those terms mean um here's why i don't like harry potter and why i would not want to bring that into my life or into my family my argument paul is not necessarily oh harry potter has magic therefore it's demonic that's not what i'm saying yeah okay my general argument for this conversation would be harry potter glorifies something the bible explicitly condemns and the specific things that glorifies i believe are spiritually dangerous okay that's that's my argument okay so again i just want to clarify it's not because it's got magic in it therefore demonic automatically discarded that's not what i'm saying i would say harry potter glorifies something the bible explicitly condemns and the specific things it glorifies i believe are spiritually dangerous let me just read deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 9 to 12 and i want to show you for a reason where he begins to lay the hammer down no no hold on we're just reading the bible and then you tell me why the bible's wrong okay go ahead here we go that's a joke that's a joke uh we're having fun here we are deuteronomy 18 9 through 12 there shall not be found among you anyone who practices divination and i bolded that on purpose or tells fortunes or interprets almonds uh omen or amen i say omen but you say omen it's fine or interpret omen what'd you say i say omen omen or interprets omens or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer that's somebody who talks to the dead or one who inquires of the dead for clarity uh for whoever does these things is an abomination to the lord okay uh as christians when we see those things that the bible explicitly condemns back to our reject receive redeem we reject those okay agree with that we have that that specific point okay we reject we reject doing those things we reject the things the bible god rejects yes great we're agreeing now let me for the record i don't think anyone should practice sorcery or get into it yeah just for clarity that was not clear before i just want to go ahead and say that right now we agree on that i thought the reason i hesitated is because i thought you were like trying to trick me right there i thought you were playing a jedi man game which you know jedi is just you know magic without the wand uh but you know we're just hold on hold on keep going keep going i'm sorry i'm interrupting you we're just reading the bible uh can you pull it up again um so here's what i want to do i want to i want to grab the word and apply it to the world yes and in this case i want to grab the the word here deuteronomy and just put it side to side next to harry potter yeah uh so here's what i would say so i'm just going to go in order you see those if you're watching on youtube and spotify i'm showing the verse and i've bolded the words uh that the bible uses from the esv and then i just want to compare it to harry potter so let me let me start with sorcery the central characters in harry potter are explicitly witches and wizards people know that in hogwarts it's a school to actually teach you how to do that uh that's in the bible spells and incantations that's one of the fundamental skills students are taught in hogwarts and when they exercise those things they're seen as heroic divination divination is literally a class at hogwarts including crystal balls tea leaf reading palmistry dream interpretation attempts to predict the future bro this is like by the way when people hear this it's like this is real stuff this is not made up like that list i just read to you it's not something's like oh what could we how could we be like uh you know like a little fantasy star like those are real things and so uh let me keep going and by the way these are i'm just grabbing the words from deuteronomy interpreting omens uh that's one of the things you do in divination class uh harry encounters the grim uh maybe you're familiar uh which is interpreted as an omen of death yep uh let me keep going charms it is literally a hogwarts subject where students learn magical incantations to produce supernatural effects being a charmer a medium a necromancer that's talking to the dead with spirits harry uses the resurrection stone to summon apparitions of his deceased loved ones and there's an ongoing communication with ghosts hogwarts uh now the problem somebody's like okay uh what's your point the problem is not necessarily necessarily uh that these elements are in this particular story the bible also has elements of witchcraft uh when you read in multiple parts of the bible there's witchcraft there's sorcery there's necromancy as well um but the whole point of the bible or the whole point of those elements being in there is that is this is bad for you this is not something that we do or we emulate or we copy or this is not something you want for your life and so when i see harry potter um and i see these elements one they're everywhere two harry potter portrays all of these elements as good exciting and heroic and in many ways we are invited to love these characters see them as heroes and love what they do and so as a christian i reject that yeah i don't agree with that and so if that is true and by the way dude everything changes when you become a parent yeah like one thing is for you and i to be like well what about me and you like that's fine we can you know we can we can debate that uh but then you have a son or a daughter and then you're thinking okay what am i bringing to my family and it's kind of my job to do figure out what that is even talking to parents real quick on this going we don't have to put up on the screen but that spectrum of more permissive more restrictive you and i as parents of what we consume we might be able to be more permissive because we are more mature but we should be more restrictive with our kids than we are more permissive by the way that should change over time because we have to help them learn to discern for themselves but i think that's a good point i think that's a good point i think that's a good point i do want to highlight that as a parent i don't want people to think oh because i watch that they can watch that because i read that they we got to really make sure and highlight that keep going so so let me just wrap it here and then i'm gonna let you tell me why i'm wrong so uh when i see all of this and i know and by the way i know we have different backgrounds uh latin america you know uh when i when you see some of these things like these are real practices in real life like um and if this is true about harry potter and it's portraying it as something good and virtuous you know you're going to be like oh my god i'm going to be like oh my god i'm going to be like oh it is not um why would i even want to expose my family to something that is glorifying something that is spiritually dangerous and that god hates yeah i'm gonna leave it there i got more but i'm gonna leave it there i told you all week and i told you today i was afraid of this because you got the high ground bro i mean you got the verse by the way good job walking through those and connecting the harry potter like dude if we were in a court of law i'd be in a lot of trouble right now so luckily we're in the court of public opinion um on all the different platforms this is on and just you and i hanging and chatting we are you want to give you some thoughts and then but i'll keep this tight um and tell me tell me if you agree or disagree i agree on certain things but let me poke some holes um and just follow me for a second what do you agree on um i mean i definitely agree we should reject witchcraft and that many of these things are done in the real world and i would say if someone watches movies like harry potter and i just hear about anything that has magic in it including lord of the rings and chronos of narnia yeah and that leads them towards real world we'll talk about that we should reject that should no should get away from it um but let me let me ask you questions i'm taking you somewhere just trust me here just trust me by the way but for people listening because i don't know if that was clear we will address the difference between what i think and i think we'll win or weave it as we're having the conversation narnia and lord of the rings in just a second is killing and murdering a real world activity yes um is murdering in john wick yes does the movie explicitly glorify that murdering you could argue that uh it does and yet you said earlier that you liked it and can watch it you can watch yes so you made my argument for me keep going so my point is and by the way and again just to remind people you and i would both i think say this is an area of conscience not a simple yes no and the reason is because you've not talked about all this off camera before because there are some people who carlos would say hey carlos because you watch lord of the rings and and chronos of narnia you're a hypocrite not like people from the more permissive side like there's people more restrictive than you say not only should we not watch harry potter we shouldn't watch lord of the rings and we shouldn't watch uh chronos of narnia and we shouldn't watch lord of the rings and what would you say to them well that's good for your conscience right but don't impose it on you so i think you're like me and that we would both say that's this is a conscience issue right uh what specifically uh that can't can a christian watch harry potter and it not automatically be a sin would you say that uh correct i would say i would not say that if you if anybody ever everywhere watches harry potter then they're insane i would not say that yes it says just to clarify for people yes that's good clarification again like on that spectrum you're more restrictive than i am i'm more permissive and by the way what i want to clear up for people right now is i'm not saying you're wrong i'm not in terms of like you have a wrong view i'm saying this is an area of conscience you're clarifying your personal conviction of conscience, it's not necessarily on me to say, well, hey, if that's where God has convicted you, it probably would actually not be good for me to twist your arm and to try to change your opinion. So when I give what I'm about to give, I'm more trying to explain why, even though I've heard everything you've said, I still land on the more permissive side. I just wanted to give that context of what this is really about. So the reason, and I set you up a little bit, Carlos, I'm sorry, of why I set you up earlier when I asked you about the John Wick scenarios of how you can not do those things, but you can watch them and not immediately be sending and take them in. If you use that train of logic, I think you have to land at the exact same place with Harry Potter, because both John Wick and Harry Potter, Breaking Bad and so many other places, it has things that happen in the real world and can happen in the real world. In those movies, it glorifies them. And yet, you would say earlier in those other cases, you can still watch them. You said it was possible. You didn't say Christians should, but you said at least, hey, it depends on the situation. I would argue. I would argue this is the same case here. We can go back a little bit forth more, but, and again, I'm not saying you're, again, for clarity's sake, for everybody and for you and me, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying that this is why I still land in probably the more permissible camp, because I'm going to say, hey, if we use that logic in so many other places besides magic, then we should be consistent in its application. Does that make sense? Yes, we should be consistent, but I do think there's differences. Okay, okay. So that's just. Like, you know, let me just. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like when you compare Harry Potter to like a John Wick, for example, back to what I said before, I'm not sure that I'm seeing that, I'm seeing, man, I'm glorifying murder here. It's more of a, there's a sense of like, there's a justice sense. Yeah. There's corruption being eliminated or injustice being eliminated. Now, again. You're not what the movie is. And how it shows those killings, it's pretty, it's doing it for a wow factor. I think it's debatable. Okay. It's debatable that what is being really elevated at the highest level. Yeah. Is it murder or is it justice? Yeah. What do you think? What do you think? I would say it is glorifying violence. There's no way around it. Is it glorifying murder? It's glorifying. Yeah, he's murdering them. But is it at the highest level? Is it glorifying murder or justice? This is actually where I'm going next. This is where I'm going next. What it can do, if you do it. I think it's justice, by the way. it doesn't automatically, is that you can redeem it. I'm going to use the word you use. It can redeem it. So that's where. I'm going to actually put a pin there and I'm going to hit something else and then we can keep going. Okay, but just because we're moving on, I think it's justice that is highest. And this is where I would compare and say it's a little different than Harry Potter. And so now actually, I want to jump to that here in just a second. So in terms of those saying, hey, it glorifies them as heroes, the Lord of the Rings glorifies Gandalf as a hero and he is a wizard. And so I've made this joke with you off camera. It's like, so you're telling me that if we showed Gandalf at wizardry school, it would be sinful, but now because he's a full-grown wizard, all of a sudden it's okay? Yeah. And so my point is to say like. That's different. Yeah, it's. Well, but my point is to say they're both doing things that you just said the Bible explains. He explicitly says it's sinful, and yet he's doing it and Christians have no problem with it. I'm more just trying to. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying this is why I'm more permissive in it. But hold on, hold on, hold on before you go there. So Gandalf, first of all, he's more like an angel. He's called wizard, but if you research it. Yeah, he's a Valar. He's more. He's like an angelic. That's the name in the Lord. Isn't it Maiar? Well, Maiar, there's. Yeah, he's not Valar. He's Maiar. He's a Valar, a higher being, Maiar, a lower being of him. Okay, so he's a Maiar. But he's called a what? He's called a. He's called a wizard. Yes. He's a staff and says spells. So hold on, hold on, hold on. So this is why I think it's important to define our terms. Yeah. Because he's not a human seeking to use supernatural forbidden power, which is a definition of sorcery. So again, I'm not saying, therefore, everything is fine. I'm not saying that yet. I'm just saying they're different. I would say. And hold on, hold on. And I guess we're now in the conversation. This is the fun part. With Lord of the Rings, you got to zoom out for the whole story. So first of all, you mentioned Gandalf, not really a human, more like a spiritual angelic being, I suppose. Somebody might say, well, it does have elements of witchcraft. You're right. It does. The mouth of Sauron is a living man who learned sorcery. He's a villain. The witch king of Angmar is a human king who became a sorcerer. He's the villain. When Tolkien talks about necromancy, domination of wills, dark sorcery, corrupt spiritual powers, communicating with evil powers, those things. Those things are associated overwhelmingly with evil, which that is true. So real quick, if you put Gandalf in Salem, in the Salem witch trials, and he had a staff and he was doing spells, would they consider him a witch or a wizard? Yes, absolutely. Would they consider that sin? The people condemning them? Clearly they have. So my point is, is that, yes, there is bad magic, but that could make the same counterpoint with Harry Potter, where people, there's bad magic that's used for bad, but there's good magic that's used for good. And it's the same. Anyways, the next point, here's what I'd say. Again, just, I'm going to keep clearing around this, people. Number one, again, for people watching, I hope what, by the way, we're exhibiting is that we can passionately and fondly disagree and both get some good points from each other, but we can actually talk about that. But I will say, because we need to keep going here, they're different in the sense that one glorifies and elevates wizardry and sorcery and everything I just read from the book of Deuteronomy, it seems like it was just straight from the book, and what I just explained about Lord of the Rings. Do you agree with that? Yes, and I could say the same thing for Gandalf. I agree. I think it elevates, I mean, I'll put it this way. Everybody says to this day, you shall not pass. If there's kids who go around dressed up as Gandalf, if you didn't know the character Gandalf, you'd think, oh, they're just a wizard. True. My point is, is it does. That's true. So real quick, I'll respond to this one other thing, and I'll just lay out my case of why I'm a little bit more permissible. Again, we're both people who say this is an area of conscience. You're going to be more restrictive. And here's why I'd maybe summarize your view. You're going to say, generally, you would advise people not to. I'm going to be, I'm going to get this. Yeah. I'm going to say, hey, generally, it's really case by case, both by movie and by person and family. Before I get to that, and you talk about how it redeems it, those other stories redeem it, a person who's a fan of Harry Potter can say the exact same thing. Okay. In fact, there's an interview with J.K. Rowling who says, there is a lot of Christian imagery in her books that's undeniable, but I never wanted to talk too openly about it because I thought it might show people who just wanted the story where we were going. So she's saying in this that she had a specific place where we're going. I will say, spoiler alert, if you've never seen them and you don't want to. Not. Not because you don't want to watch them ever, but because you don't know where the story goes, now might be a good time to skip ahead. In the last book, the hero of the story, in order to defeat the Dark Lord, the evil one, gives up his life and raises from the grave to defeat him. That sounds a little familiar. In fact, I would argue that that is more explicit Christian imagery than is in Lord of the Rings, and I'm a massive Lord of the Rings fan. Could be. So I'm not trying to say then, oh, it's a Christian book. I'm trying to say that in the same way that you made the argument earlier with John Wick, that you can explain. You can't exclude the bad things because it's pointing to a higher value of justice and you're redeeming it. I'm saying that someone could, not that they should, they could watch Harry Potter and do the same thing. All right. You want me to let my quick case? We'll make this fast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's fun is, dude, you and I could go for two hours. We could. I'm trying to decide if I should play moderator or if I should be like, oh, wait, hold on. I know you're right. I'm telling you, man. There's a guy named Jason Howerton who's on our team who we've actually caught sometimes behind the scenes filming us, like, bantering back and forth for fun because it's quite a show. Okay, but hold on. Can I actually? I want to push back a little bit. Push back on me. Okay, okay. So you're saying, oh, there's a Christian story, therefore it's okay. I would put it this way. I'm just going to be real with you. I think that the Harry Potter movies have more overt Christian themes than Home Alone, which y'all said later was a Christian movie. Earlier this year it was a Christian movie. Well, great. More overt themes than, yeah. So what about, like, so let's say, I'm trying to figure out what direction I take this one, but that's okay. Let's go here. So where do you draw the line, Paul? So what? What about, like, Hex, for example? Good question. You know, like, you know, I don't know if you know this. This is like a movie. Disney's coming out with this movie. 16-year-old girl possesses supernatural magical abilities. She enters, quote-unquote, Hex, a secret magical realm inhabited by witches that uncovers family secrets. Her magical abilities become central to her journey, discovering her identity and where she belongs. Where do you draw the line there? That's a good question. So I can't speak to Hex because I haven't watched it. That's part of my argument is that. But, you know, you get the idea. I would be more reticent just because I haven't watched it, you know, and I was, by the way, more reticent. In the early days of Harry Potter, in the early days of Harry Potter, man, it was a big thing in the Christian circle. It's like, don't watch this. This is evil. This is demonic. But then as the story was told, especially the last one when they see what happens, it was noticeable that Christians became more open to it because it was a pretty overt Christian themes that were in those final movies. So with Hex, but I will say, I forget the name of the movie, but there is a movie that came out when I was, I think, in middle school or high school that had Neve Campbell in it about these female witches. And it was not good. It was like, I mean, it's about glorifying bad. It was glorifying bad witchcraft. Good witchcraft is fine. Bad witchcraft is not okay. Well, no, but I would say like in that one, it'd be harder to redeem is my point. And in this point, and you got to let me make my point here, my case here in a minute. The world that was depicting in was like, it was not as much based in fantasy. It was more trying to base it in reality. And it was way darker. It was just way darker. Like, my point is, is that. And I disagree with what you just said. There are some movies, but I could reverse it on you. So like. Can I tell you why I disagree? In Lord of the Rings, Witchcraft is okay. Um, even like there is witchcraft in Endgame. Let me, let me, let me tell you why I disagree with that. Uh, because you said this is difference between reality and, and, and fantasy is what you said. Um, this is why I think Harry Potter is different than, uh, than, you know, we joked around before. Cause I said that, uh, C.S. Lewis is a Christian author and Tolkien was a Catholic as well. Yeah. But I think that matters. So I'm not saying that therefore they can do it and J.K. Rowling cannot. Um, but, uh, I will say again. Here's my concern and I, you know, coming up as a, as a dad and as a pastor, my concern is some of the stuff that J.K. Rowling portrays in Harry Potter, they're not fantasy. They're a hundred percent real. Uh, the. these are her words. So this is an interview, JK Rowling in 1999. She said this, and I quote, I'm mentioning a creature or a spell. They're asking her about the book. Yeah. What's real and what's not real. She's like, Hey, I'm not into witchcraft. Good. But then she said, I'm mentioning a creature or a spell that people used to believe genuinely worked. Of course it didn't. She says, but then I will find out exactly what the words were, what the words, talking about spells or incantations. And I will find out exactly what the characteristics of that creature or ghost was supposed to be about a third of the stuff that crops up is stuff that people genuinely used to believe in Britain. So here, in addition to the fact that Harry Potter uses the same terms from the book of Deuteronomy, the same practices, and the author saying that at least a third is like legit real stuff. I'm like, well, like I will say no to that. We could go in circles in this. I probably should get to the point where I make my view. My point would be, you could again make the same accusation with Gandalf. And again, like literally, you love Avengers end game. What's the best scene in Avengers end game? The very last. No, it's, it's at the end of the final fight. And what's the best part? Like there was, there were like clips where people were cheered when guess what? Everybody comes back. What did they come back through? Magic portals created by who? Dr. The guy, Dr. Strange, who is literally termed a sorcerer Supreme. My point is, is that let's, and by the way, not created by, to my knowledge, a Christian. So my point is, but in that moment, I don't think that, all of a sudden you made a cross in front of you trying to ward off the demonic. I think in that moment you could sort out. In fact, my guess is in that moment, you were happy that everybody's coming back. I don't even know that you I'm getting. Yeah. On your left. Yeah. Oh, it's the best scene, bro. My point is just simply this. And then we got to start speeding this up. My point is that man, even if all those things are true and I'm about to make this case, it is a fantasy novel and movie. And you have to, you said earlier, what am I watching? That includes the genre. Cause I would ask you, why do you, I'm jumping ahead a little bit for a second. Well, how do you know that some of this stuff, cause they do their research that you had from Tolkien and C.S. Lewis wasn't from the real world as well, that people actually did those things. So real quick on that, why do you think, actually, I'm going to wait for that point. Can I just make my case? Can I make my case? Yeah. We said it would be like 35 to 40. This one would be like 50 to 60. We apologize for that one. So here's my thing. My position is not that Christians should watch Harry Potter or should watch any movie. Cause I would actually, to your point earlier, I do think there's a spectrum and there's certain things that would say, Hey, I would be slower to watch that or read that than others than others. I would like, for example, I would have no qualms with a Christian parent reading Chronicles of Narnia, even though it explicitly has the word magic in it. I would have no qualms. Although I will say personally, I don't love it. Yeah. But I would agree with you. But anyways, so my point, there's a spectrum. I'm not saying that they should, I'm more saying that they can, I'm going to be a little bit more permissive for you than you, I should say. But, but here's what I would say. It's a matter of individual conscience. Cause while these things are forbidden in the Bible and we should not participate them in the world, it is different when we approach fiction. You laid this case out earlier for me, when I asked you about John Wick and about Breaking Bad, I'm saying, if we use that same logic, you have to apply it to this too, that a book or a movie can take something that the Bible condemns as sin. And then it appears like in the movie is glorifying it, but it can be, if done rightly, redeemed. So a few reasons why. I agree. Just not with Harry Potter. Number one, number one, depiction and consumption does not equal participation. So depicting something, does not mean participating in it and consuming. It does not automatically equal participating. I don't disagree if it does. Well, if it does automatically mean that then an actor who portrays Judas is also betraying Jesus in real life. I agree with you. You got to really follow that logic for a second. It means that when Jesus tells parables that contain sinful actions and the people hearing those are participating in them, I don't think any rational person would make that argument. And yet it does matter what you consume. It does, but I'm saying it doesn't mean, I mean, automatically, participation, because for example, can we get the clip of actually when they come back in the portals? So real quick, because if you make the argument, it puts you in an awkward spot. I told you, I'd do this if you ever kept coming out and strong. So you know where I've seen this before is not just in movies. I've seen this scene, I believe in our church because we showed in game. And so if you're telling me that this is then a participation in magic. I'm not saying that. But you see what I'm saying. But there are people who do. My point is, is that it doesn't necessarily mean, it can mean that, but it doesn't audibly mean it. I agree with you. Number two, so that's point one, number two is point. Number one, participation. I mean, a consumption or depiction does not automatically equal participation. Point number two, we have to watch or read something according to its genre. I would say that Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, croc of scenario, so many things that we've talked about today belong to the fantasy genre. And in fantasy genre, the idea is, is you have a secondary imaginative world that does not exist that contains supernatural phenomena, including magic. And in that style of literature, they're using things from that world to teach us about. They're using themes that still apply in this world. And so here's the question I'd ask is CS Lewis and Tolkien were devout Christians when they wrote Chronicles of Narnia and Lord of the Rings, which had magic. Why did they feel the freedom to include things that the Bible forbids? First of all, I think I can give the answer. Go ahead. It's because they were professors of literature and they knew that fantasy genre is not the same world as the real world. You can use magical elements and things that would be there. See wrong. Here in the real world. But they can use that to point to deeper themes and stories and things, sorry, themes and ideas that do apply in our world. Now people can disagree on what I just said. Where's the line again? What I'm laying out right now is not what I'm writing. You're wrong again. That's not the point. The point is, is this is why I'm a little bit more just permissible because I say, Hey, if someone here's the key thing can watch Harry Potter and remember this is fantasy and not that, Hey, this happens in the real world. Should even, by the way, if it borrowed some, some things that some people may be trying, the world if people remember that, then I say it can then be redeemed and yet those two guys, they also tend to portray anything that's generally speaking related to witchcraft and sorcery and magic, dark magic, especially as something evil and bad as opposed to Harry Potter. That's the opposite. It's equal. Anyways, final few things. Enjoying a story doesn't mean approving of everything as characters do. I don't have a spin a lot on that. We've already hashed this out, but here's what I will say. Given all those things again, why this is just one laying out the case that Christian, um, can, I'm not necessarily should, then I'll, I would be a little bit more permissive specifically with Harry Potter. Christian freedom still requires discernment. And so I think it'd be helpful in a few minutes for us to begin talking about, Hey, even though we land in different spots, I think it'd be helpful for us maybe because I've written down some questions like in a few minutes, I think it'd be helpful to get some questions to our listeners and our viewers either for themselves or if their parents or their kids like, Hey, before, not just Harry Potter, before you let them watch anything or you watch or read anything, here's some helpful questions. For you guys. We'll get to that in a second, but any thoughts on what I shared? I know you actually agree completely, and we've already hashed out a lot of this already, but any, any general thoughts? Yeah. And again, I go back to what I said at the beginning, you know, again, the Bible is not against imagination, epic fantasies, creativity, fiction, stories, supernatural themes. Um, sometimes Paul, and I think this is important, especially because we talk about Marvel. Uh, like if somebody asked me, are you, is Marvel okay? I would say it depends. Yeah. Uh, it's, uh, sometimes the line between those things like fantasy fiction and like things, the Bible explicitly calls us in, they get blurry and they get intertwined now more and more. And honestly, that's where Marvel is going for the nerds out there. So it is harder to distinguish. Oh, that's good. That's not good. So then, then if you mix it all together, then you're like, ah, but then, um, and so just something to keep in mind, but I mean, I agree with you. I disagree on the fact that, uh, Harry Potter is the same as, uh, Narnia and, uh, and, uh, Lord of the rings disagree there. But I agree in the fact that, Hey, regardless when you consume content, man, uh, we are called to exercise discernment. I think we're out of time to list all the movies. I think it's probably be more helpful to get to the questions, but just for clarity, I'm not saying they're the exact same, but I am. We're saying they're close here. You and I would maybe, I would not land where you do in terms of how far apart they are. They're closer, but I would also just clarity. I don't think they're the same. My point is, is more as, as, Hey, if they have some common elements, we have to use the same standards for each. And so, yeah. And again, we just disagree on that. And by the way, part of why we do this is to show people, that's okay. That's okay. It's okay. Cause again, this is an area of conscience. And here's what I would tell people like, what would be wrong right now? Actually we use you, me as a test case. What would be wrong? And I don't get this from you at all, by the way, is if you really like Paul, you're such whatever, like, well, we, in a sense, we both think we're each other wrong. We've been arguing, but where we would be wrong is this is if you were looking at me saying, Oh Paul, you're so, you're so unholy. In fact, you're kind of sinful. The fact that you held this opinion and you think you're better than me because of it, it'd be wrong for me to look at you and say, Oh, you uptight person. You need to lighten up. It'd be wrong for me, by the way. And I love that you even asked, is there a line? Cause that goes back to our original conversation. When we were talking about the watch out street side. I just want to highlight that for Bill. Now do you think, I think it'd be helpful to like give some people some questions to think about for themselves and their kids. What do you think? Yes. And then I have some additional thoughts. Just to kind of line it up. How about, I'll just give a few questions. These aren't exhaustive. And I'll try to do these a little bit more rapid fire. And then you can end us on a pastoral word. Okay. I'll give you just a few questions for yourself. Although this could apply to your kids as well. Anything you're watching, whether it's Harry Potter, Hexed, but any other type of movie, John Wick, whatever, man, what is drawing you to it? What is actually drawing you to it? Are you primarily looking for an opportunity to indulge lust and purity or another sinful desire? Or are you looking to take something good while leaving out the bad? How does it portray evil? Does it portray evil as something bad and be rejected? I don't actually mean evil acts. I mean, the idea of evil in general, what is this encouraging me to admire? What effect does this actually have on me? I'll just be real fast, real quick with me on this. Like I started to watch Game of Thrones when I was younger. And after four or five episodes in, I had to stop. And for me, For me, it was because I noticed that when I watch these things, it's filled with a lot of violence and nudity and just some other bad elements. I'm like, I literally just felt awful afterwards. I felt like I'd eaten two, like, extra large pizzas. And I just felt, I'm like, and then so for me, I'm like, hey, this is not having a good effect on my soul. I'm going to stop. Now, other Christians might have been able to handle it. I couldn't. So for me, that was a conscious thing. I had to put it down. So what effect does this have on me? Does this fit with any particular weaknesses or your season of life? Like, so for example, we joked about partying movies and drinking movies. Like, hey, there might be some movies that a Christian can watch and not even think about that. But if you're coming out of a partying lifestyle and a drinking lifestyle, probably not good for you to watch movies or consume content that glorifies that or has that in it. Here's a key question. So if I love this TV series or this movie series or this book and I began to feel convicted, do you really think you could stop? If not, that is showing that it's beginning to have a hold on you. And because of that, I think you should stop. All right. So for parents, here's just a few things, a lot more overlap. Is your child ready to process this? Not just, again, magic, anything with magic, but any kind of movie at all. So like, I'll just be honest. I would not have young kids watch even the older Harry Potters because it has some pretty dark things like murder and death in there that they're just not ready for. So that's just, you got to be like, is your child ready to process that? When it comes to fantasy movies, can they distinguish fantasy from reality? That's a key one. A few other things. Then I'll give some pastoral counsel. What conversations will this movie or show or book require? And are you prepared to have them? Because I will say, it is parental malpractice if this is going to open up some questions or some things in them that could potentially get in them that you don't want in them and you're not willing to walk through them with it. And I'd even say because of that, are you willing to have conversations with them? Are you willing to read the book with them and watch the movie or show with them? If not, it's probably wise for you to not let them do it. Probably wise for you to not let them do it. And then finally, like, hey, how is your child? How is your child actually responding to this? So let's say you guys begin to watch a show. And again, not just magic, but anything. And you see them responding poorly or it's having a bad effect on them. Are you willing to say, hey, we're going to actually stop this and we're not going to watch this anymore? So I hope those are just a few helpful questions that people can ask us. Just some good filters through what you consume and what your kids are consuming. What you got for a final pastoral? Yeah, man, just to land the plane here. We hit an hour because we thought it was going to be 30 minutes. Hilarious. So just want to echo what you said, Paul. Something might be permissible. It might be permissible for one Christian, but the same thing might be unwise for another. So it is possible that you're like, God, can I do this? And God's like, others can, you can. It is possible. I think, again, this is a conscious thing. This could be also a specific calling. Like, hey, maybe it could be permissible. But for you and your family in this season, whatever that looks like, God's like, not you. It is possible. Number two, what you consume most is what you conform. Number two, Romans 12, do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind. Again, check out your inputs and then evaluate your outputs. That's good. Right? So if you're wrestling with fear and anxiety, probably not the best idea to bring a horror movie into your life. Great point. Probably not the best idea, again, if you're depressed. Like, you got to evaluate what you're consuming, what you're bringing into your home. Parents, especially husbands, you have a responsibility to figure out, hey, this, yes. That, no. Last thing, number three, just because it's popular doesn't mean it's for you. Hey, man, we're word people. What we just did with Paul right now is we want to wrestle with the text and say, hey, what does that mean? And how do we apply the text to real-life context? And so we're word people, not worldly people. Maybe everybody else out there is a thing. That doesn't mean it has to be a thing for you. And so, man, we want to be sober-minded. We want to be biblical. We want to be humble. Like you said, this isn't about, well, I'm right, therefore let me go on social media and tell everybody why they're wrong. That's not what we're trying to do. And ultimately, we want to be spirit-led. So we are, especially in this season of Halloween, just a final warning. Bro, there's some dark things out there. And again, I would say things are more spiritual than maybe people realize. And so we want to, again, we want to see the world through the lens of the word. Love it, man. Well, hey, as we're wrapping up, a couple things. Number one. We'll make a commitment right now that next week's episode will only be 20 to 30 minutes. This is long. We'll only do 20 to 30 minutes to fulfill our word. Careful. That's a bold commitment. I'm going to go for it. Over two weeks, we'll average out to the right amount of time. 20 minutes? I said 20 to 30. 20 to 30. You've got to say at least 30. 20 to 30 is nothing. Five minutes. Point is, average the first two weeks of these together, and it'll equal out to what we promised. Number two, I just want people to say this. What I love is that even though you and I land on two different places, and this man, I love you as a brother and as a friend, as a co-pastor, and I think you're a good and godly man, and I learned from you. So even today, you challenged me with some things to think about. And again, part of that is, I just want to say that in front of everybody, but part of that is what I'm hoping that we're doing today is modeling what I hope Christians will do with other people in areas of conscience where you disagree, that you can have these kinds of good and uplifting and sharpening conversations. It's going to get tense at some points, but listen, as I like to say, if iron is sharpening iron, sparks are going to fly. That's good. But that also just means that you're both getting sharper and better. And I want to say, man, I agree with you. I enjoy—like, people don't even realize. Like, we—this is, like, tame. This is, like, this is nothing compared to some of the conversations you and I get to have. And, bro, like, I learn from you, like, every single—like, this is why I enjoy having conversations with you, because I genuinely don't have these conversations with, like, other, quote-unquote, normal people that are not, like, Chad G. Paul C. But when I do, I'm challenged, and I'm like, man, this guy, like, I need to—I need to learn—you know, I'm learning all the time from you, and that's my point. And I appreciate—in addition to you being super smart, you're super humble, and I'm And I mean that. And you're a great pastor. Thank you, sir. So thank you for wrestling with me here a little bit. All right. And, yeah, man, that was the episode. That was it. All right. Been next week. Live free. Live free, brother. We'll see everybody next week. Well, hey, thanks so much for listening. 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