#19 Mere Christianity on living in hope

The CS Lewis Podcast with Alistair McGrath You are listening to the CS Lewis Podcast with Professor Alistair McGrath, brought to you by Premiere. I'm Ruth Jackson and over this second series, Alistair and I will be looking at some of the key themes and ideas in Lewis's seminal book, "Mir Christianity". You can find out more about this series as well as CS Lewis and Professor Alistair McGrath by heading to CS Lewis Podcast.com. If you enjoyed this podcast, please don't forget to like, rate and subscribe on whatever podcast platform you use. On today's episode, we will be looking at what Lewis says about living in hope in "Mir Christianity". Alistair McGrath, welcome back to the final episode of the second series of this CS Lewis Podcast. We've been unpacking some of the ideas in "Mir Christianity". Again, I feel like we need to do a whole other series on this because there's so much to be said in this wonderful, wonderful book. But we're going to be focusing particularly on the idea of living in hope. We did talk a little bit about hope in the previous series, but there's so much to be said that it's definitely worth another episode. Could you just summarize a little bit about what CS Lewis says about hope specifically in "Mir Christianity" here? Well, Lewis has a chapter on hope in "Mir Christianity", which he really begins to talk through why this is so important for believers. And obviously he has to try and draw the things between faith and hope and love, which he does. And he also has to ask what the object of hope is. In other words, it's not just a sort of feeling like optimism. And in fact, that very helpful way of understanding Lewis and hope is to ask how Lewis might distinguish hope from optimism because optimism is saying, "Hey, everything's going to be great." And in one sense, that's hopeful, but actually in another sense, it's not. Because what Lewis is saying to us is that there is a real ground for this thing we call hope. It's about recognizing that we do not simply journey through life. It's about that we journey through life on our way to somewhere else. It's all about in effect, journey in hope, in the sense that we are going to a place where there is a person, which actually is what life is all about. And so Lewis's in effect is trying to get across the idea that the Christian faith is like a journey. It's a journey through suffering, through uncertainty, and through good times, through bad times. But we are on our way to meet the God who we know and love. And that is something that inspires us and keeps us going. And that really is what hope in that rich sense of the word is all about. Now, does Lewis think that Christians are unique in feeling that there's something more to this world or is that something that we all have the kind of inherent feeling about? I think Lewis feels that many people do believe or want to believe that there are some point to the world that actually we're not just traveling through the world, we're actually journeying towards something. But I think Lewis is really saying that Christianity is able to articulate and defend this in a particularly helpful and convincing way. Because if you think about it in everyday English, the word hope can actually be quite weak. I hope it won't rain tomorrow. I hope I'll get over my cold very soon. That's all the thing. And very often that means we'll be very nice if this did happen, but it probably won't. So it's quite a weak word. But Lewis wants to try and get across the idea that for Christians, the word hope is strong. It's actually something you can base something on. It's about sure and confident expectation. It's more than just an aspiration. It's a conviction that this is something which you can in effect rely on as you journey through life. Do you think there's a sense in which this sort of inherent feeling of hope might also actually point to a proof for God if we weren't a Christian? So there's that phrase, isn't there? If I find myself a desire for which nothing in this world can satisfy the conclusion I come to is that I was made for another world. So do you think there's a sense in which actually the hope inside of us points to the fact that there may be something to hope in? I think that's right. I think Lewis talks about this in quite some detail. He's saying we very often do have this sense that we have these deep longings and they're not actually satisfied in this life. So we hope they'll be satisfied in the future. And he in effect gives three possible ways of thinking about this. Of course, there's nothing there to hope for. The other, of course, is, well, we haven't found, we just keep looking forward. But the other, of course, is, as you say, the idea that we are made for another world. And actually, Lewis developed this in a very interesting way in his first book, The Pilgrims Regress, which I have to say is hardly ever read these days. The styles of it clunky, but in that book, we have the idea of being drawn to a very strange place, an island. And that in effect, we are drawn to this. And as we are drawn to it, we realise that everything else in which we might have hoped is a vain hope. It's not real. That in fact, it's something that is a lie, a deception, it's a false hope. And so we really, really Lewis is very, very clear. We need to be able to work out what is a real hope and what is a false hope. And obviously, CS Lewis is encouraging us to look forward to the future hope, the hope in eternity. But how does that impact what we do in this world? Because he's not saying we focus only on heaven and therefore forget about earth, is he? No, he's not. And I think that Lewis in this chapter goes out of his way to say, "Christians do hope in heaven, but that does not mean they are world denying, or they disengage from this world." And in fact, he makes the point, actually, some of the people who care most of this world, actually were nourished and informed by the vision of heaven. So it's a very important point for Lewis. What he's getting at is actually that the vision of heaven is transformative. I mean, I have many friends who work in the medical profession and very often they'll say to me, "Look, I have this vision of a heaven in which there'll be no more pain or suffering. And I can't help but feel that part of my calling as a Christian is to try and make this world a bit more like heaven. So I'm therefore engaged in medical work. Because I think that is a way in which I can try and do something to make this world a better place. But it's not saying, "Hey, I'm just doing this because it's a good thing to do, though they are saying that in part." They're saying, "This is the way things ought to be." They're very strong moral sensors that heaven, the Christian hope, is all about, "This is what things ought to be like and what they will be like." Why not try and do something about this right now? So I can see how empowering and relevant to the present day that really is. And he says, "Doesn't he aim at heaven and you'll get earth thrown in, but aim at earth and you'll get neither?" That does feel, as you say, super relevant at the moment, particularly at the time of recording, we're still in lockdown because of the coronavirus. We're still in lockdown. And I've been talking to people who are actually beginning to wonder about what's going to happen when we're stopping lockdown because they're saying, "Well, we can get back to life as normal, but what's the point of that?" It doesn't really excite me very much and they have no hope. And also one of the things that really struck me about the COVID crisis is how important faith has been to so many people to keep them going and keep them growing during this very dark and difficult period. So I think one of the things that an historical experiment I'd love to have been able to do is if CS Lewis had lived through COVID, what would he have said? What would he have written? I think there's some clues in his writings, but certainly I think there's a lot that could be said. What do you think he would have said, Alistair, if I had to push he? Well, you can push me away. I personally think that, in effect, it's all about being able to discern something at the end, which is not simply a negative thing, meaning the end of this irritating period, but actually a very strong sense that we are going somewhere. Actually, life is not just dodging bullets or trying to get around the latest crisis, but actually, it's about growing as people, becoming better people, becoming to know God better, and finally going to be with God. And actually, for many people who have brushed with death during this time, that's a really important point. COVID has really exposed our mortality, our frailty. I think that many people have found that a very difficult thought. But if you're a Christian, of course, that's a thought you're very comfortable with, because even though we're frail and mortal, we have hope. And that's a really important point. Obviously, when CS Lewis is talking about hope, he talks about it a lot in the context of suffering as we've just been doing. But in Book 4 of Christianity, he talks also about hope in the sense of, there's hope for us even though we're sinful. Would you say just a little bit about what that looks like? How we live a hopeful life on earth, even though we're not perfect, which is what we've been called to be? Well, Lewis is here making the point that recognition that we are sinful. is a recognition we have to accept. And it can take us in several directions. It can lead us to become incredibly self-absorbed. Oh, I'm a person of sin. I can't do anything. What's the point in trying to do anything? And I can very often lead to withdrawal, to inactivity, to a general sense of not being willing to do anything. And what Lewis is trying to do, I think, is navigate a way between two extremes. One is to become so preoccupied with sin that simply overwhelms us. And the other is treating us something very, very light and unimportant, which is one of the concerns he deals with right at the beginning of my Christianity. And what Lewis is saying is, look, be realistic and be hopeful at the same time. In other words, recognize there's a real problem here, but God knows that, and God's done something about it. And yes, we are sinful. Yes, we are frail. Yes, we are mortal. Yes, yes, yes. But God knows that, and God has done something in Christ, which means we can in effect deal with this, and we mustn't let it get us done. It's one thing having this hope within us, I guess, in some sense, is a personal hope about what's going on. But how do we share this hope with those around us? Because that would have also been the context within which Lewis was writing. He'd have been writing, as we've already said, in a war-torn culture, where there would have been a lot of people who were actually devoid of hope. So how would he have shared that hope? And how would he encourage us to do the same? I think that Lewis would have been aware that during the Second World War, there were two really extremes. There were those who really just gave up hope completely. And those who had such naive hopes about a post-war world, that when things went the way they did, they were utterly dissolutioned. Now what Lewis is saying is, look, let's be realistic. We are sinful human beings. We constantly mess up. And that applies, I'm afraid, to everything. But we can somehow find our way through this. Things are not going to get better. We must try and move away from this idea that history is always getting better. You know, it's not really. It just zigzags around. But nevertheless, we can live hopefully because we are not living alone or in our own strength. I think that's a very important point, which resonates very strongly with some of the things that Lewis says at the beginning and at the end of my Christianity. I think what we need to say is that, you know, with our hope, we simply, we're going to perish. We need hope to flourish. And what Christianity offers us is a realistic hope. It's not based in a faith in human nature. It's based in a realistic assessment of human nature and a belief in their God who is going to be with us and journey with us as we travel through life and see us through to the end. And those themes, Lewis Express, is very, very well particularly in the last of the Chronicles of Narnie, which of course is the last battle. And what do you think that looks like practically? Because I suppose it's one thing to have that hope in and of yourself. But what does that look like? What's the external manifestation of that hope, do you think, would Lewis say? Oh, that's a very good question. I think that Lewis would point to the importance of worship as a, I think, a way of sustaining that hope. It actually brings home to you. Here is a God who is worthy of worship who inspires hope. I think that is very important. I think one thing that Lewis would encourage us to do is to think how we might be able to articulate this to other people. He was very, very good at putting into words difficult ideas. Now, one thing that I often struggle with is how I would explain to my non-Christian friends what it means to be a person of hope in the Christian sense of the word partly, because for many people the word "hopeful" means optimistic. And of course, that's not the same. And optimistic is things are going to get better. Hopeful is, oh, this hope in the Christian sense of the word, is what things may not get better at all, they may even get worse. But I can cope with this. I can find my way through it. I can become a better person and one day I will be with God. And I can make a difference to this world as I journey through it. And that seems to me to be a much more realistic and productive way of looking at things. In many ways this is related to what you've just said, but CS Lewis would have been living counter-culturally among the non-Christians that he worked with, that he was friends with. And that feels even more pertinent now in a post-Christian culture. So how do we live counter-culturally as people of hope? I think that there's a really interesting question, because suddenly you're right, I mean, even in Lewis's day, people were getting quite cynical about the idea of hope. They would say, every time we've been hopeful, those hopes have been dashed. And I think that many would say that hope is a false hope that we're being, something is being dangled in front of us. You know, if you do this or if you believe this, everything is going to be better. And I think one thing that Lewis is inviting us to think about is, you know, why talking about Christianity bringing hope is not about false-dorn. What is real about this? What difference does it make? And I think there are two ways we can talk about this. We can talk about, obviously, in terms of how we think about early Christians, you know, who saw Christ die. And obviously we're wondering what happened. The world's into being shivered, then the resurrection changed everything. And we begin to realize that we can be transformed like that. But I think also it means we have to think about how we would try and explain to our non-Christian friends the difference that this makes to us. In other words, if I were to try and explain to my non-Christian friends, why Christianity makes me a hopeful person and the difference that makes, what am I going to actually say? And Lewis gives me some hints and answer there. But I think that the world has moved on. And perhaps the examples I would give might not be the same as examples Lewis would give. You mentioned there that we can be transformed. And Lewis talks quite a lot about that in book four of Christianity. But how does he think that happens? How are we transformed? Well, his core answer really is Christ within us. Again, this distinction between biological life and spiritual life. In fact, there is something different about the Christian, which is not simply an enhanced quality of life, but a different basis for life. A different intrinsic foundation for life. And I think that's a very important point. Because one of the things I think Lewis talks about, which is really relevant here, is the analogy we mentioned earlier of thinking of if you like a sculptor's studio full of statues, which are going to become living people. That's the kind of difference that Christianity makes. And Lewis is saying that that is all grounded in the death and resurrection of Christ. I guess the question that we need to think about is how we would explain that to people who don't really understand Christianity or who have moved away from it. Because I think each of us needs to try and think of how we could describe the difference that our faith makes to us in terms of hope, but also in terms of this idea of not being a statue but being a living person. To me, that's a very interesting challenge. And certainly Lewis is very good for raising challenges. And that's certainly one of the challenges I think he raises for us here. Talking about challenging things, one of the things that Lewis talks about in context of transformation is surrender and sort of sacrificing our lives. Would you say just a little bit about that? Because I suppose in so many ways that feels the opposite of hope, doesn't it? We want to hold on to our lives, hold on to that hope. But Lewis is saying that actually we need to let go of it. We need to surrender our lives. I think Lewis is simply saying, if you go along with everything I've been saying, then you can see that what Christianity is doing is offering your quality of life, spiritual life, which transcends biological life. And we have the hope of something that's even better yet to come. And so if you contrast spiritual life and biological life, then the life of New Jerusalem is better still. So actually what Lewis is really saying is that the quality of the Christian hope is such that we can let go of this life because there is something better that's yet to come. But I think Lewis is not inviting us all to simply give up and he's saying, you keep going, but you see things in this perspective. I think that's a very important point. We're seeing life in a way that makes us realize that this life perhaps in the greater scheme of things is not the beyond end all, there is something better. And that is something we can look forward to. But in the meantime, there's lots we need to do. I mean, Lewis is very, very clear. You know, we are inspired to make this world a better place and make ourselves better people. But nevertheless, we need to get on with this, knowing that something's still better lies ahead. So in some senses, this sacrifice now is worth it. Well, Lewis would say that and Lewis is very much alert to language and new testament, which is that in effect you have to die to self. The old Adam gives way to something else. And his point is that sometimes it's rather difficult for us to imagine what that new life will look like. But we can. can be reassured A, it's there and B, it's better. Hope feels like such a pertinent topic, particularly in the times that we are in right now. So if we wanted to find out a little bit more about what CS Lewis thinks on hope and sort of living with this hope, where should we go? Well, I think reading that chapter in Miracres' Christianity is actually a very good way of doing that. I also mentioned, of course, the final book in the Conclusion of Narnia, The Last Battle. And particularly right in the final chapter, you find a very powerful affirmation of hope. And I think that that's one that we could perhaps take away. That actually this world is but a shadow of something much greater that we are about to enter into. And it's a very powerful illustration. And one, of course, that Lewis finds in a new testament. But I think what the key thing that really Lewis is saying is that great though this world is, there is something better. And we can hold on to that hope as we journey through it. We are at the end of our final podcast of the second series. But before you go, Alistair, can I trouble you just to summarize some of the thoughts in this wonderful book, Miracres' Christianity, perhaps remind us again of what some of your favourite bits are and inspire us to go and reread it again? Well, let's begin at the beginning. I think Lewis's opening, gambit, his analogy, his way of introducing the topic brings out very, very clearly the idea that actually as human beings we have these great and wonderful thoughts about what is good and what we ought to do, but we can't actually do them. So if we have a religious leader who is merely a teacher or a moral example, it's not going to be that much. We need more than that. So Lewis's in effect is unfolding the dilemma of human nature. We need transformation. We need renewal. We need empowerment. And then begins to explain how Christ is able to do this. The analogy of the statues becoming people or the tin soldiers is very, very helpful here. And then he begins to articulate the glorious vision of God that lies behind this. If Christ is able to do this, well, who must God be? Well, he's Trinitarian and he has started Dr. Neutrinity really helps to understand this. And of course, it helps us to behave and it helps us to hope. And for me, that is probably the best thing to take away. For Lewis, Christianity is a faith of hope. It's not just knowing there's a God there. It's about the hope that one day will be with that God who we know partly now, but will know in full when we finally see him. And I just think Lewis articulates us beautifully. And he inspires me. I'm sure he's going to inspire other people who read this remarkable book and go away feeling I understand Christianity, but more than that, I think I've captured something of its vision and also something of Lewis's vision as well. Alistair, thank you so much. I just want to go and read everything that CS Lewis has ever written, but thank you so much for being so generous with your time. It's been wonderful being with you. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you for listening to the CS Lewis podcast with Professor Alistair McGraft brought to you by Premiere. I'm Ruth Jackson and over this second series, Alistair and I will be looking at some of the key themes and ideas in Lewis's seminal book, Mir Christianity. You can find out more about this series as well as CS Lewis and Professor Alistair McGraft by heading to csluispodcast.com. This week we will be broadcasting a special edition of the CS Lewis podcast.