Speaker 1Hi. Welcome, everyone, to the podcast. Welcoming you to the podcast where I work with May. And she is 52 days off weed and alcohol. And she is judging her 12-step program. And she believes they are powerless. And they believe they are addicts for life. And she believes they are stuck in their victim story. I mean, she goes on and on about this 12-step story. You know, in my experience, it's like witnessed as a true addict. Addicted to what? What we're thinking and believing. She goes really deep into this. So I'm so glad you have dropped in. And with no further ado, let's do, let's sit in judgments of 12-step programs according to this amazing addict that I imagine that some of us can really relate with. May. Hi, May. Hi, Katie. Hi, precious, precious. So what's going on? You have a worksheet?
Speaker 2I have some beliefs written. I have, literally, if you could see my room, I have like pieces of paper on the ground with shit. I'm so crazy, Katie.
Speaker 1Oh, you know, in the past, but right now, you know, there's a smile. Oh, you know, there's a smile on your face. You're wearing earbuds, you know, and looking good, looking good.
Speaker 2Thank you. I'm 52 days off of weed and alcohol.
Speaker 1Oh, wow. Oh, my gosh. And you know, sobriety is a state of mind and the body follows and in earth school. So it's, it's a beautiful experience. Beautiful experience. And, and it's something that humans aspire to. You know, it's a, it's a beautiful thing, this testing this life and what it's like from one state to another.
Speaker 2Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's hard, though, because I stopped smoking. And I started having all these feelings come up and realize where I wasn't setting boundaries in my life. I wasn't honoring my nose, saying yes, when I didn't mean it. And I broke up with my boyfriend. I'm thinking about moving out of my group home. I'm thinking about stopping working with my coach. I don't know how I feel about my job. And it's so overwhelming. And I keep having this, this thing pop up towards me where I need to have a purpose and I need to have a goal. And if I don't have these things,
Speaker 1then I'm going to be flailing around with. So I would say the number one goal, um, would be sobriety. Sobriety is a state of mind. And everything you're doing, as I hear it, is to support sobriety. It is. And so you take a drink, the guilt, just, you know, cause and effect in this, in this earth school, cause and effect, cause and effect in this earth school. Yeah. You drink, you do sobriety, you know, on, on a more balanced state of mind.
Speaker 2Sobriety. It's okay for that to be my only goal.
Speaker 1Oh, what else is there? I don't have another goal. Sobriety is a word for freedom. Sobriety. And just notice the times you're drunk and you haven't had a drink. Yeah. Drunk here. I, this, I, that, he, that, she, that, they, that, you know, a form of drunkenness. And if it's not taken care of, you have every reason to drink again, to use again, to use again. And there's no right or wrong to it. Yeah. Sobriety is everything.
Speaker 2Thank you for saying that. I guess, what that, what that brings me to is I actually have a list of judgments about the 12 step program. And I also noticed that I have a belief that I need the 12 step program to stay clean and sober
Speaker 1that like beautiful program, you know, at turnaround house, do the work in the day and send y'all out to a 12 step meetings. You know, it just, oh, oh my goodness. Inquiry is, it works with everything. So yeah. 12 step programs. What is, what is your, what are your thoughts about them? Your complaints.
Speaker 2Okay, here we go. So my judgments that the people in these programs will just say they, they are self-depreciating. They believe they are powerless. They deny trauma is the cause of addiction. They believe they're addicts for life. They're stuck in their victim stories. They are limiting themselves with their belief systems. They are overly identified with their past selves.
Speaker 1Okay. So let's just, um, they are stuck in victim stories. Yeah. 12 steps in 12 programs. We share experience, strength, and hope. So they are stuck in their victim stories. So there's one of those. And then there's strength and hope. So there's three there, and you think they're stuck here. So they're stuck in their victim stories. Is it true? Imagine you're at a meeting. There they are again. Victim, victim, victim to your mind. They're stuck in their victim stories. Is it true? Yeah. 12 steps in 12 programs. We share experience, strength, and hope. So there's one of those. And then there's strength and hope. So there's three there, and you think they're stuck here. So they're stuck in their victim stories. Is it true? Imagine you're at a meeting. There they are again. Victim, victim, victim to your mind. They're stuck in their victim stories. Is it true? Zero in on your, in your mind's eye. Zero in on one specific person. Got him. Got him. Okay. He is stuck in his victim story. Is it true? No. Give that no room to be in you. Let it have its life. And notice you're in that meeting. He's sharing his victim story to your mind. He's sharing his victim story. How do you react when you believe the thought in that situation? He is stuck in his victim stories.
Speaker 2I feel so distrustful and disappointed. And like, I want to leave the meeting. I'm like, oh, here it goes again. These people, this, this, this lack of being able to get out of their victimhood.
Speaker 1And notice you. See in your mind's eye someplace else to be. Yes. Much better than this place. Same old, same old. See yourself where? Somewhere. Somewhere I actually don't want to be.
Speaker 3You see yourself. Oh, wow. Yeah, I see myself there.
Speaker 2Yeah, I see myself stuck where I don't want to be anymore.
Speaker 1Yeah. Yeah. And what does that look like? Um, what are you doing? What are you drinking? What do you do?
Speaker 2It looks like being around people who use on a daily basis, but have big smiles on their face and invite me to.
Speaker 1Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, there was people as you sit in the meaning in the meeting. And in your mind's eye, you compare that victim story with those people and you see you there and and oh, it's comparison.
Speaker 2And it also, it almost like gives me an out. It's like I don't have to address cutting off those spaces and people in my life. If I believe that this place where everyone's getting sober is wrong and full of victims. Oh, boy. It doesn't leave me many places to go, though.
Speaker 1No, no. And they're so unfamiliar, those places that aren't the place where all those. Those people are. They're unfamiliar. They're unfamiliar. Your ego is really threatened.
Speaker 2It makes me doubt myself a lot. Yeah. And it makes me cling to trying to be like special and beautiful and have some kind of talent or big purpose to show off to everyone. And yeah, I'm trying so hard to find a place for myself.
Speaker 1Yeah. Yeah. That that ego would. I need to know. I need to know. No, I need to know what to say, what to do, where to go. As you sit in that 12 step meeting, listening to this man's experience, or even just his victim story, even if he never moves to the other two.
Speaker 4I didn't realize he was moving to the other two until you used your fingers.
Speaker 1You know, one out of three. Yeah. Yeah. So we are so lost in the dream. as I sit there with you in that meeting as you in my mind's eye. When you compare what you're experiencing in your head with reality, this man sharing, who would you be without the fantasy, the ego, the ego's trip into the not now future? So now listen to this man. Get close, get connected. This is it.
Speaker 2Yeah, I just noticed I'm in more acceptance of life not being this positive, happy, high place all the time. And like, he's so articulate and so honest. He's talking about the, I'm not good enough. Nobody likes me, all of that. He's reading. He's reading a worksheet, basically.
Speaker 4Yeah, it's...
Speaker 2And the comparison, the fantasy, those are people that I don't feel I can talk to this stuff, to talk to about, sorry, my words are a little jumbled.
Speaker 1I don't feel like... And to him, this is who you relate to. And the fantasy in your head... Fake news in the moment. Very compelling. Very compelling. Now notice what happens to your physical addiction. Your physical. Like, you see them there, they're happy, and you're getting notice just in your mind's eye, the happy, happy, happy, how that affects your body.
Speaker 2Oh, I feel so unsettled. Like, in my stomach, in my chest, my heart starts beating hard. I feel scared. Like, it's like, yeah, I don't feel like I can relax. And my face hurts from pretending to smile.
Speaker 5Yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah. And it's, I notice it's hard for me to acknowledge that without then going into judgment about them and wanting to make myself better than that.
Speaker 1Yeah. Yeah. So now, drop the fantasy, be there now, listen, get connected, and feel what it feels like to be sober rather than high. You're going, you're sitting in one chair, you're going from high and longing back to here now, back to sobriety.
Speaker 5Oh.
Speaker 2I guess I already have a future because my mind, my mind wants to say it feels sustainable. Like, I could feel like this for a long time.
Speaker 1Yeah. The kind of, so be there now, in the sober, feel what it feels like. It's not that high that you just flipped your mind out of. It's real. Feel the chair holding. Feel what sobriety feels like. This is so important to understand. The sobriety is a state of mind. It's what it feels like to be sober. No bells, no whistles, no smiling people, no way out of this. Listen to this moment. Get connected. And relate. What is he saying? You can't relate to.
Speaker 4Now my mind is trying to get at his physical appearance to justify it because I've lost the first layer.
Speaker 2Wow. Wow. He seems like he could be a friend.
Speaker 4It's actually nice to see him in the room saying the same thing every time. He's really consistent. Consistency tends to be good for people.
Speaker 1Why are you smiling? He's so dull and he's so stuck in his story.
Speaker 2He's so honest. He's so honest. And giving. Yeah, he's very vulnerable. And ripped naked. Yeah, he's naked. Wow.
Speaker 1My favorite. Oh, my favorite strip, like some love it. Some don't. Sobriety is.
Speaker 2It's like when I don't want to strip naked and I see someone else doing it. I'm like, no, like, I won't take any of that. Not ready. It's too much.
Speaker 1My favorite position. Average, not more, not less. Just.
Speaker 2It's so hard for me to believe that that's true for you, for where you are in life, a state of mind.
Speaker 1I don't take waking up and brushing my teeth for granted. It was earned starting over baby at 43 years old in school. I feel like. Like a baby at 30. Immature is longing to be somewhere I'm not. That's drunkenness. That's something to follow. That's where I'm going. Chasing this. And then you get there and that's not it. That's very true. He is stuck in his victim story, turning around in that situation.
Speaker 2I was, I was stuck in my victim story.
Speaker 1Totally. But don't believe me. Try it on. I was stuck in. I am stuck in my victim story. Yeah. Believing. I want to be somewhere else and that you have to listen to him.
Speaker 2Yeah. Yeah. That somehow this man is inflicting his existence on me.
Speaker 1So you, you, you understand that prison is a state of mind.
Speaker 2Yeah. Yeah. I don't want to be locked up anymore.
Speaker 1A state of mind. You have an opportunity to be at home in yourself. And as you learn to get comfortable there in those earth school teachers, as you learn to get comfortable with yourself, you begin to notice you're comfortable everywhere.
Speaker 2A state of mind. Well, early in sobriety, like, is it fair? Like I, I hear you say, don't pretend yourself beyond your evolution. Is it fair to not want to live in or be in spaces where people are using?
Speaker 1Well, for myself, it's like, why would I do that to me?
Speaker 5Yeah.
Speaker 1I'm. sobriety is a state of mind. It's not as though you don't know what's going to happen. You have a full education that the ego will do everything it can to talk you out of. That's a drunken state of mind.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's miserable.
Speaker 1So, sweetheart, he is stuck in his victim stories. Turn around. In that situation, I am stuck in my victim stories. So, another turnaround. Can you see it?
Speaker 2He is stuck in his victim stories. I'm stuck in his victim stories. I can't even hear the rest of it. I'm about to leave the meeting before he's finished sharing. I'm pretty sure the last times I heard him share, I started zoning out anyway. I don't even know how his story ended. I didn't listen to him. I'm seeing him as a victim. I'm seeing him as having some poor quality of life, and I'm like, I don't want that. This is the wrong place for me.
Speaker 1I see another turnaround. Would you like to hear it? He is stuck in his victim stories. He is stuck in his success stories.
Speaker 2It's a pretty huge success for someone to be that honest. He must take great pride in being able to show up and totally be honest.
Speaker 1So, turn it around. I must take great pride in?
Speaker 2I must take great pride in being able to show up and be completely honest. Yeah, I feel proud right now, but not like, not drunk proud. You've got a whole different flip.
Speaker 1Same words, different experience.
Speaker 2I just had the thought, like, should I be afraid of when I feel really joyful? Is that a sign that I'm off balance? Like, if I can't do it, I can't do it.
Speaker 1get really happy and start laughing i don't see a problem just know what goes up must come down in this in art school fair enough yeah wow you could use a few highs just notice the cause of the high is a word for it it's called freedom it's not a it doesn't come from a a drug or a drink or just comes from a boyfriend yeah so um people in 12-step programs um what else did you did you write um they believe they are powerless so why is that a bad thing when you consider the
Speaker 2what they mean by that yeah actually i sat an inquiry yesterday with someone and i i got the first step for the first time
Speaker 4for the first time and i've been in the 12-step program before and i'm powerless over reality
Speaker 1you're not powerless over reality you're not powerless over reality it doesn't move for me it doesn't change for me it doesn't and i love that you see how it flipped i can trust it this chair i'm sitting in i can trust it and if i can't trust that if it just collapses on me i trust what catches me and if if something happens to gravity i trust i trust i trust the trip yes over okay so um in other words the absence of fear i trust um what is
Speaker 2by nature how could i not by nature yeah i i feel really scared to trust the people in the 12-step program because i guess a lot of people don't trust the people in the 12-step program all these things i'm believing about them and i also sometimes don't trust myself and don't trust
Speaker 1my ability to set boundaries so i people have they believe what they believe and you have no way of knowing whether they believe it or not so just stay home and they'll continue to give and give and give whatever it is they give you do your work and they do or they don't so um what else is on your list like you look at that you mentioned
Speaker 2um there's more um oh one that bothers me quite a bit is that they believe that they're addicts for life that really bothers me
Speaker 5so
Speaker 1um what were you addicted to today well let's say you're sitting in that meeting and you're addicted to that high in your head as you imagine that great gathering you could go to that you compare with sitting there listening to this victim duality they believe they're addicts for life is it true that they believe it yes they say it yes they but can you absolutely know that it's true that they believe they're addicts for life that that that person's sharing try to find one that says
Speaker 2i'm an addict for life yeah i found a no in a different scenario um i used to be in aa and i remember when we all gathered and went out on the water and did some rafting and stuff it's like i can't know that they're believing that they're addicts in the moment that they're
Speaker 1barbecuing and in the water yeah so go to a 12-step meeting they believe they're addicts for life is it true can you absolutely know that it's true that that's what they believe even though they're saying no they believe they are addicts for life how do you react what happens when you believe the
Speaker 2thought fear like i want to run away feel like i'm in the wrong place and i i feel very limited like i'm scared i'll never be able to have healthy or normal relationships and it feels like a huge thing to give up to have to be like busy busy busy busy
Speaker 1busy as you sit in that in that chair and hold out for that drug you can take like they believe they're addicts for life but i can have a little insidious isn't it very much and i believed i'm addict for life there's the end of my life there goes life as i understand it you know drugs are the way out
Speaker 2yeah like i i feel like i'm always going to be in this like position where i have to be like personalized and have someone else to help me and show me the way i feel powerless but not in the
Speaker 1good way they believe they are addicts for life listen listen to their stories in in in the meeting
Speaker 2without the thought i see someone saying like i will always be an addict and i've just had to
Speaker 1accept that but you don't know if he believes it i guess i assume that
Speaker 2people believe what they say about themselves yeah yeah yeah that's funny it is when you have no proof yeah and when i notice how many things i say about myself that sometimes i believe sometimes i don't
Speaker 1how do i react how do you react when you believe the thought because i'm in this too um they believe that they are addicts for life what are you addicted to in the moment the future
Speaker 2of having to know how things are going to be of wanting a certain kind of life and identity i'm addicted to the
Speaker 1idea of freedom how do you react when you believe the thought they believe they're addicts for life
Speaker 2you tear them to shreds in your mind yeah yeah it makes me feel very like suspicious when i hear someone's in a 12-step program there's a part of me that takes a step back that makes you superior
Speaker 1you're sitting there with an addict's mind that i know mine it's the opposite of sobriety
Speaker 2yeah like now that you say that the 12-step program kind of looks like a safe haven
Speaker 1compared to the other smiling faces and all that stuff yeah if sobriety is your purpose wow see you're
Speaker 2high and on your ego in those meetings it's true i know mine yeah and and sometimes i'll i'll minimize the screen and i'll go scroll on social media during the meetings yeah yeah
Speaker 1so um we believe they are addicts for life turned around i don't believe um can we look at number four yeah
Speaker 2without the thought that they're addicts for life i see that i've landed myself in this huge resource of people that can help and they want to do it for free and they're doing it they're doing it they're doing it
Speaker 1you're on your phone they're doing it on your phone sometimes
Speaker 2not all the time i've actually fallen asleep in meetings and woken up and raised my hand and they've called on me i'm like sorry i was asleep
Speaker 1they're so nice when you look back at your life you could use a lot of rest oh my god yeah you've been like a lot of breath there's a lot of
Speaker 2stress yeah there's been so much like hyper arousal hyper stimulation just so much high high high and it makes so much sense why there's been so much low low yeah oh my goodness yes
Speaker 1yeah okay they believe they are addicts for life turned around i believe that i'm an addict for life well you you've spent your whole life can you recall a time when you weren't addicted to something
Speaker 2i can't remember much before three years old and by three i was already there chocolate candy yeah
Speaker 1wow i believe i'm an addict for life yeah and addiction is a state of mind at three years old you think chocolate and you see the image of chocolate in your head it's not even physically there you see it in your mind's eye and then the cravings start but the chocolate in your head is not real yeah that's addiction you are addicted to believing that the the the stuff in your head is real yeah and and that creates the craving
Speaker 2and i know that's true because i would eat until my stomach hurt
Speaker 1that's an image that's not the same way and boyfriend the same way and i believe i'm an addict for life addiction is a state of mind know your own you cannot know theirs cannot know what is true or false you take what you need and you've got inquiry i know thank you so much oh honey you've got inquiry i know thank you so much oh honey you've got inquiry i know thank you so much you've got inquiry you you know the difference between crazy and not okay precious precious they believe they are addicts for life they don't believe they are addicts for life you know watch them go in and out some do some don't it's just you were going out sitting at the table in the meeting you were out oh it's just you were going out sitting at the table in the meeting you were out oh you're busy getting high huh and
Speaker 2like again it just kind of brings me back to at least they're being honest like i don't think i know anyone who's not addicted to something
Speaker 1well certainly not my business what am i addicted to that's my business yeah fair enough and it just gets down to what i'm thinking and believing what am i addicted to belongs on paper because when i am asleep to reality i need to wake me up i need to sit with myself identify the thoughts that keep me drunk high not as a right or wrong but to notice sobriety is my purpose well good thing because i the state of mind would not take me where the ego would want me to go yeah it's honor the ego you know it's it's a state of mind it's powerful it would create and imagined you there's nothing more powerful than than that other than
Speaker 2what's real yeah and it seems that i've set up some like major parts of my life to support the getting high and to support the ego
Speaker 1continuing so let's look at another one what would you like to work with oh goodness honey let's let's move i'm gonna move to to andrea because you you know how to come home how to be here now and and and the laughter you just that just happened that's spontaneous that sobriety that is you in life whether you're with no matter who you're with this is authentic or you're in the middle of your life or you're in the middle of your life you're in the middle of your life you're in the middle of your life you're in the middle of your life you're in the middle of your life you're in the middle of your life you're in the middle of your life you're in the middle of your life you're in the middle of your life you're in the middle of your life you're in the middle of your life you're in the middle of your life you're in the middle of your life
Speaker 6you're in the middle of your life you're in the middle of your life you're in the middle of your life you're in the middle of your life you're in the middle of your life you're in the middle of your life you're in the middle of your life you're in the middle of your life home home base You both answered a lot of my questions, actually. So I feel a little bit shaken. I don't know if I still have something.
Speaker 1A question for all of us. Are you drunk or sober this morning? Are you drunk or sober now? It's morning in Ojai.
Speaker 6It goes in and out.
Speaker 1Yeah, in and out. Wow. You know what sobriety is to me? It's kindness, expecting nothing in return, ever. Just kindness for its own sake. And you don't even know you're being kind. It's not planned. It's just a state of existence, a state of being. It is life out of a sober mind. Okay, sweetheart, I interrupted. I have to do this. So, Andrea?
Speaker 6Hi. So, no, this is wonderful, Katie. Like, from the beginning of today, you already have been answering my questions. Like, I didn't have even had to, you know, ask you. So this is all wonderful.
Speaker 1Oh, I'm so happy to hear that. You know, you live in me. And when you are happy, that works for me. It's not required. Because you're in me, it is required. So we're a match, my heart. We're a match.
Speaker 6So I'm going to try to go back to that place, because I know it's going to come back to me after we're done here, you know, at some point. Good. So I have been listening to you for many years now. And my mind has created this ball of yarns with things that I haven't heard from you. It created a big confusion out of things that I, you know, my mind thinks that I heard from you. And one of them is that I have this impression, this feeling that there's no way out. If everything is a story, I'm never going to find a way out. Because if even enlightenment is a story, then I'm never going to be free. Because there's always going to be, it's always going to be an illusion. You know, always an illusion, an illusion. And that makes me feel hopeless, desperate. You know, I even wrote here. If when I get to heaven and there's still a Jesus and other souls there, please shoot me. Because that means that I'm still dreaming. Because I feel that there's like, even heaven, even Jesus, everything is a story. For I have been listening. What I think I have been listening. I kind of in my heart feel that's not true. And then all of a sudden this heaviness on my chest arises and I start getting suffocated. And I feel like I'm trapped. This is a maze. And there's no way out. And I'm never going to be free. Because everything is a story. A story after a story.
Speaker 1One consolation for me is to know you're free. Like, to know you're free. That is the immovable I talk about. Your pure wisdom. Your ego, what you're thinking and believing overrides. Rides that. Not because it's more powerful. But rather simply because wisdom doesn't have to say, I'm wiser. You're wrong. You know, you lose. I am. I am. Wisdom just is. It doesn't fight for its existence. It's that thing again. It's who and what you are by nature. Wise doesn't do war. But anything other than, let's say, wise, which is what you were sharing, it's that worried mind, that confusion. If you put that on paper and question one belief at a time, wisdom will pass. penetrate, will meet the question, is it true? Like, there's no way out. Everything is a story. Wisdom isn't going to say, well, you're wrong. That would be the ego again. Well, you're right. That would be the ego again. Wisdom doesn't guess. So say, there is no way out. Everything's a story. And you just be gentle with your ego. Be gentle with it. And just, you know, just, is it true that there's no way out, that everything is a story? Now, if the question, is it true, if your heart is open to the answer, whether it's yes or no, doesn't matter. matter if your heart is open and you really want to know the truth. That is the open door for the ego and wisdom. It's as though it penetrates it and enlightens it. But to ask, it's like everything is a story. The ego will give you all of the proof. Its life depends on it. But to get still and write down, there's no way out. Everything's a story. And just to just get still and just, you know, the term meditation arises, get still. It's a question. It's a question. And if that door is open, in other words, if you really mean it, you'll be shown the answer. Don't expect it. Wait. Don't let the ego control the timing. Wait in that open question. It's like a prayer. Show me. Show me. Show me. You have unwavering faith. You have unlimited answers to your question. Your ego is full of question, answer, question, answers. But the ego is asking and the ego is answering. There's no room for wisdom there. You're living out of that I know mind. You know, I could listen to, I listened to teachers all my life. They were my mother. They were my father. They were my siblings. They were my children. They were my, these teachers, my, the people. That people, my world. Those were my teachers. My mother said, your name, you, Byron Kathleen. I believed she was right. It's like, I'm innocent. I just, okay. Okay. So I identified me. She didn't. She could call me Byron Kathleen forever. And it wouldn't be. It wouldn't be true until the moment I believed it. So these are the teachers in my world. They call me this. They call me that. They say this about me. They say that. And I think all of these thoughts about them. You know, I'm offering a practice to sit in as opposed to, to me that you listen to, and hopefully the two work together. But my, my words are hopefully experience. I'm, I'm like the experience that has come out of pure inquiry. And I continue. It's a practice. But I can't, I didn't guess my way to this state of mind. I don't call it the work for nothing. So if you want to sit with the mastermind, get quiet and sit in yourself because the greatest teacher and wisdom you will ever meet is in you. Your ego will do whatever it takes to make sure you don't discover. There's nothing to know. And in our earth school, you know, I love it because we have words here that begin to make sense that we're awake to. And in this practice, stillness, if you heard me say the word stillness, you're in the not now. So I can honestly say I've never had a thought. I've never spoken. And there's no possibility that that would change. And that just, and that just ended in a question mark. All of my experience adds up to, nothing and that nothing is everything. Who could understand those words, unless they sit in the practice and meet the master. Okay. That's in you. You're it. You're the one. Okay, my precious.
Speaker 6Thank you so much.
Speaker 1You're welcome, Andrea. Thank you for listening. Thank you for taking it in. Thank you for a kinder word. I love that you join me live every Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday from 9 to 10 a.m. Pacific time at homewithbk.com. Join me there live. Let's do the work.
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