#181 - Building The Company That 15-Year-Old You Needed - with Oliver Ravn & Jerry Colonna

[Music] Welcome to the reboot podcast. We are so glad you're here. [Music] Hey friends, it's Jerry. Before we begin, I want to offer a little framing. Every now and then, someone reaches out after reading reboot, and they say something that stops me in my tracks. That's what happened with today's guest, Oliver Raven. In his note to me, he wrote, "I created versions of myself that were not me." That kind of honesty is rare, and that kind of self-awareness is radical, and it stayed with me. Oliver grew up with chronic illness, psoriasis, Crohn's disease, the kinds of conditions that leave visible marks on the body, and invisible marks on the psyche. Like so many of us, he learned early on to mask the tender places, to hide the parts he feared would make him unlovable. But what moved me most about his story is that out of that pain, he built something beautiful. A community called chronic care. A place where people with chronic illness can talk openly, be seen, and belong. There's a line from Megan or Rock's beautiful book, The Invisible Kingdom, I keep turning to. She wrote, "There's a razor thin line between trying to find something usefully redemptive in illness, and lying to ourselves about the nature of suffering." Oliver walks that thin line with grace. With chronic care, what Oliver is trying to create is in many ways, an antidote to the loneliness that those who inhabit the invisible kingdom, all too often bear. Our conversation explores what happens when the mass cracks, when the wound becomes the work, and when a young founder realizes that his worth doesn't rise and fall with the fate of his company. So take a breath, settle in, and join me for this tender, honest, and remarkably human conversation. Thanks. Reaver your year is our invitation to you to pause and honor the transition into this new year. This simple yet powerful five-day course will guide you through this annual transition with grace, and open you to the promise and hope of the year ahead. The course unfolds through daily emails, each with a co-on to consider, and a guided journaling practice handcrafted by the reboot team. Each stage practice takes less than 20 minutes to complete. We hope you'll enjoy this course so much you'll make it part of your annual practice. We've heard from many of you that you have, and you'll share it with teammates and colleagues as well. Learn how to reboot your year at reboot.io/rebootnewyear. Hey friends, it's Jerry Kelona here. My guest today is Oliver Raven, the CEO and founder of Chronic Care. It's a pre-revenue seed stage company with a powerful mission. To create a world where no one faces chronic illness alone. Chronic care combines disease-specific peer communities with structured patient-reported outcomes, helping people living with chronic conditions find not only better care, but also connection, understanding, and belonging. But that's not what really moved me. Why I wanted to have this conversation is not just what Oliver is building, but why and how. And what that says about who he is and who he's becoming. In a note, he sent me after reading reboot my first book. Oliver shared a story that stayed with me. He wrote about standing in the water off of me orker with my book in his hand, alone, reflecting, crying, and as he put it, asking the questions, all of them. And I will continue to ask, knowing that the answers will hurt my soul deeply, but allow me to grow into the leader and person that I aspire to be. He also shared, since I was 15, I have been chronically ill, psoriasis, arthritis, inflammatory bowel disease have dominated who I am. This has overdeveloped my lonely soldier, fed the crow for generations, and instilled an outdated mindset based on the ghost in the machine. And for the first time, I'm grateful for this. I hate it and I love it. What struck me most was that phrase. In those words is a kind of wisdom that only comes from living inside the paradox. The simultaneous grief and gratitude that marked the journey toward wholeness. Welcome to the reboot podcast, Oliver. Thank you so much, Jerry. It's a pleasure to be here. Yeah. You're okay with me having read from that. Absolutely. Makes me reflect upon it once again and brings up a lot of good and bad thoughts. So sticking to the theme of a paradox here. Yeah. Well, take us through that. What allowed you to move from anger and resistance towards something maybe even we might call acceptance and perhaps even love. They, I hate it and I love it. Tell us more about that. I mean, it's a great question and it's probably something that I've been trying to answer myself subconsciously for a long time. And I think if you boil it down to why the mindset changed, it's probably because it became too difficult, too hard, too confusing to keep fighting, to keep going against the flow and going against what is happening and not accepting how this disease or these diseases actually affect my life. Now, it took me 15 years probably to come to the conclusion that that's good in every bad situation. I think I've learned so much from being sick with these diseases and actually so much now that it's not only acceptance. It's I actually feel that I have an edge in life of having been through all of these hard times with chronic disease and suddenly I can look at all the learnings that I've got from all the hard times and see now I have a, now I have something that benefits me from it and something that I can use in my life and and a mindset that I can take and use in other situations that are not that are not to do with any of the diseases. So I think it's been a long journey to get to a point where you can turn something as chronic diseases into into what I'll call an edge in life but I'm here now and I'm very grateful for being able to to see this in a positive view. You know, I appreciate the leaning into the light part of what you're doing. I think it's in so many ways it's the task of our lives, right? I mean Carl Jung said famously something I quote all the time, "I am not what has happened to me. I am what I choose to become." And you know, in so many ways, the seeing the part of this, the gift of this, the lessons implicit in this experience is you reaching with agency to create something of meaning and you know, we'll circle back to chronic care in a moment and how I'm imagining that that's an expression of that. But I also don't want to dishonor the trouble. You know, sometimes I think that we as a society feel so uncomfortable with uncomfortable feelings that we encourage people who are suffering to just look on the bright side of things. And I want to create a little space for the part of you that also said, "I hate it." So let's go back in time. Let's tell me a little bit about being a teenager. Yeah, right there. That spot. Yeah, definitely the hardest part of the journey from being chronic healed was when I was a teenager. I mean, I started getting psoriasis more than 15 years ago now and for those who don't know psoriasis is a skin disease and it It it it doesn't look it doesn't look pleasant. It doesn't feel pleasant and it can be everywhere on your body and for me at a young age it It were places like in my face and my arms and my legs in my scalp everywhere. That was visible and At that time, you know people on the age of 15 they don't they don't know about diseases. They don't know anything about psoriasis neither did I but what they saw was something very different from what they were used to to looking at they saw someone that looked different that looked even at least that's how you feel that looked disgusting and and you know you get you get these these look these comments and throughout your your childhood growing up with this then you start to believe them yourself if you call the monster enough times then you start to believe that you are a monster and and I've I've had some of these comments go very deep inside me and create who I am also still who I am today and you know I wish I could go back right now and say that it's it's it's going to be it's going to be all right you're going to learn how to live with this but but at that time what what happens is that you start feeling the tippu you start feeling the stigma so you're very stigmatized use and most of all most importantly you feel extremely lonely you feel like there is no one in this world that understands you not your doctors not your parents not your friends and especially not those who were making fun of you and from that loneliness comes controversy and from that controversy comes you kind of just avoid everything in the world and then the mental health issue starts coming from this so you start becoming anxious you start becoming very depressed from the loneliness anxious about going out being social seeing other people what will they say what will they what will they think and suddenly before you know it you are stuck in a in a loop of hatred towards yourself if I if I have to be completely honest that is that is what it ends up with and and it can end in severe depression like it did for me and and with health anxiety and everything so it's tough when you don't have the tools or the support or the knowledge or the know how on how to deal with life with chronic disease as a teenager yeah I told you when we first connected that my wife Ali suffers from chronic illness and I've had the experience of being close to you know people that I love who have similar challenges whether it's eczema or or you know psoriasis or ibs and one of the helpful books for me that I read is a book called the Invisible Kingdom which is about a woman's journey through the misdiagnosis the the painful treatment on the part of the healthcare system that might say to you well you know this is merely a psychosomatic illness and so therefore you know perk up you're smiling because you know what I'm talking about is that right yeah absolutely what was the healthcare experience like for you now I think we could we could make an entire episode on this podcast on the healthcare system and the doctors that I actually have good experience with but we could make 10 about 10 episodes about the bad experience I've had with the health care system right and as a young person when you're sick oftentimes I mean your sick with chronic diseases where you know there's not the biggest chance of you getting those chronic diseases well then that is the first thing that most doctors will say and that's at least what I experienced is that know you're too young to have this it can't write it you can't have you're too young to have arthritis right exactly exactly and you know what's funny it's it's not funny it's a tragic conical but like throughout the past 15 years I've had three different kinds of arthritis so a diagnosis then that was a misdiagnosis first day said it was too young and now they're actually starting to say that yeah I'm getting a little bit too old to the general population that gets this kind of arthritis so I went through the entire system of first being too young and now for this specific arthritis I'm a little bit too old to have it and I think honestly I've had so many tough experiences with doctors that didn't believe me that dismissed me as as as as slay as yesterday yesterday I was at my doctor and I have a new thing with with with with my body that I feel is is something that I need to take care of I went to the doctor to explain it and the only thing that that you hear is that well you also on very heavy medication so it might be the side effect and I've heard that 10 times now and that's what you hear when you first get sick and you are on medication and you go with some kind of symptom or some kind of pain then you're very easily dismissed because it's very easy to say from this long laundry list of side effects that are on biologic medicine that that's probably the case and then as a as a as a kid I remember clearly with psoriasis I came to the doctor and I was afraid of of if this would actually spread to the rest of my body and I started sounding a little bit anxious and I started sounding like I needed I needed some things to happen I needed to happen right now and the response from the doctors were that this sounded a little bit hyperchondriic and I should consider it if you know if if there's actually something wrong or it's in my head and at least where I'm from in Denmark you have a very the relationship to to the public health system we have a public health system right it's it's you trust them with your heart you with your soul and when you go in there and you you pour out your soul open your heart open and you cry for them and you want to get better and you get dismissed there's no one to catch you you lose the trust in the system and that's unfortunately not I'm not the only one that happens to stories I hear all the time yeah I think you're doing something really brave and important right now and I want to acknowledge that based on my understanding this kind of dismissal happens at least in the United States more frequently to women but it can happen to everyone who has a chronic illness right now I've got a I've got a male friend who got COVID while training for a marathon and has all of the symptoms of long COVID and he traveled around the country trying to find someone to to help him understand what was happening in his body this kind of dismissal exacerbates the loneliness that you described the sense of shame perhaps and this is not the way we're supposed to treat each other we're supposed to be there with each other and believe each other so I think what you're doing by speaking about this and in the launch of chronic care is really you're you're you're you're doing something important for this community so I want to recognize that and support that but so just to transition into that for a moment take me back to there was something that unlocked for you in reading my book and and this is not about me talking about my book but I really want to understand the experience for you because you know to to frame it and to give it some context and I speak about this often in my second book reunion in which people found themselves their own story in reboot and the there's something about that experience of finding kinship and hearing someone else's story so I want to I want to invite you to talk about that there you are standing in the water and you're having this experience what was going on for you in that moment? I think when at the moment I remember the most and I actually cried in standing in the I stood in the water for four minutes. for a lot of day straight, right? And I read the book. I read the three, four chapters every day. And the moment I remember the most, I can't remember the name, Jerry, but it's about that even when you believe that you got it all figured out, then everything is still falling apart and you should be aware. (laughing) That's Pema Children's teaching on impermanence. What am I in fuck? (laughing) What up? Yeah, sorry, you said it very well here. Because you know what, Jerry, I came to the part where I was starting to unravel the parts of me that have been hiding behind the disease, behind how I came to become a liver today. Like I'm 31 years old, and the past 16 years with chronic diseases have shaped who I am, but it's also hidden who I am in the same place. And this. Oh, you have to say more about that. Tell me more about how it hid parts of you. First of all, it created persons' personalities, masks that I've worn for the past 5 to 16 years, right? Masks that I don't have psoriasis, that I don't have inflammatory bowel disease. I've been trying to compensate for those feelings that I didn't have as a young kid with psoriasis and with chronic disease. I've been trying to compensate by creating versions of me that are not true to myself, but I'm all, because I wanted to be like everyone else. I didn't want to be the guy that always wore long sleeves because I didn't want to show my arms. I didn't want to be the guy that didn't ever wear black clothes, because I didn't want to have skin and dead dress. Skin and dead dress. Exactly. And I didn't want to be the guy that couldn't eat out on restaurants because I have a stomach disease or I have a disease in my intestines. So I created versions of me that were not me, but that I felt were necessary in order to live life. And I've been doing this so much that I kind of started to believe that the fake versions of me were me. They were once trying to protect this little vulnerable kid from when he was 15 or even younger, trying to protect that guy by creating something that I'm not. And then when I'm standing down, I'm reading this book and I'm asking all the questions and saying the things that needs to be said for the first time ever in my life to myself, not about anyone else, but actually telling myself that I am actually good enough the way I am. I am actually, I don't need to put on the masks. I don't need to pretend anymore. And just convincing myself that or teaching myself that that just unravels so many feelings that I'm also now, I'm getting very emotional because it's something that I actually don't talk about with a lot of people, Jerry. I think this is the deepest that I've actually been with with someone in a conversation like this because no one have asked me this question. And I've got you. And your book just opened up. This was just the beginning. And then I started asking all the right questions suddenly and they heard like all the answers they heard. They heard so much. But afterwards, I felt so relieved. I felt so relieved. And that's also why I just had to write you 'cause how crazy it might sound. And also I didn't plan on coming on here and actually saying these things. We didn't plan this, me and you, but I just have to say that it changed a lot in my life and it's still changing a lot because I stick to especially this, what do I need to say that is not being said and what do I need to hear that is not being heard right now? - Yeah. - And yeah, I could keep speaking about this, but what I just wanna say is that it opened a part of me that's been locked away behind fake versions and masks for half of my life to finally realize that I don't need to do that anymore. - I can't imagine being told anything as a writer, as a coach, as a soon to be grandpa, anything that is more important, more meaningful to me, than to know that I created space for you to be fully authentically, whole you, for you to feel like you can say the things that you needed to say and to understand that you were gonna be received and held. And even celebrate it. 'Cause here's the thing, my friend. What you have done, and again, this is not like this polyann or thing, well, I'm gonna take my wound and turn it into a company. What you are doing goes beyond whether or not this company succeeds or fails. What you are doing is bravely speaking to the 15 year old kid who's hearing this podcast right now, who just got a diagnosis of psoriasis or Crohn's disease or some other ailment, and realizing you're not alone and you're understood. And there's a path forward. And you are enough just as you are. You don't have to wear a fucking mask. You don't have to pretend. You don't have to please the world. You just have to be you. And let me tell you, that lesson, which I repeat over and over again in reboot, that lesson saved my life. All I was doing was repeating the wisdom that I heard from my own elders. And when I watch a man whose younger than two of my three kids, I mean, how's that for a mind fuck? Bravely speak to the next generation. I know that I have paid it forward to those who have come before me. So let's expand a little bit. Let's talk a little bit about this experience. So here you are, Mazeltoff. You've launched a company, holy shit. What do you think? You're crazy. Tell me about the company. It feels a little bit crazy. And it's actually because this company, I'll get into what it is that we do in a moment. But I actually want to talk a little bit about when it all started because it's not that far after I actually got psoriasis. So I got it at 15 years old, right? And when I was 19, 18, 19, I don't remember exactly. But I found out that my best friend, my very best friend, that I lived with, like he was living a hundred meters away from me. We were together every day for years. And we went out to travel and we were in Thailand at this point. And I can't explain to you how close we were. We were very, very close. We knew everything about each other except, except how much each one of us suffered from psoriasis. I didn't even know he had it. You know why? Because it was a tip of the truth. It's crazy. Because it was a move for both of us. It's not something you talk about. He had the exact same feelings, a little less than me, but same story. And at that moment, first of all, it was absolutely amazing to talk with someone that understood me. I was not alone actually. My best friend, were they right with me or along. Right. But that that told me a lesson immediately. And that is how come that there's such a big table wise, that no place that you can go and actually break this table, don't feel stigmatized, not be alone with your disease. Share your experience. Like go and just journey together with someone who truly understands you. And that is that's that's really what brought chronic health company to life in the beginning. That was also the time when when Facebook and Instagram just started. I remember. And the reason why I'm saying this is because I've found it so, as I was so crazy that platforms that you went on to post a picture or tell a story that got likes and you became popular around that and so on. And honestly, it just fed into these these wrong mechanisms in my opinion that that that there were platforms like this, but there were no platforms for helping people at at at at at at stage with with diseases to connect. That's really where what what Veronica started and I actually came home from that trip and then I started wire-framing the idea. I didn't know what or how to do it but I wire-framed it enough to get in front of some investors and I was actually offered investment so I was 19 years old with the idea. 19. 19 years old. I remember I borrowed my parents' cards to drive to Udense which is four hours away from where I lived. I come from a very small fish-a-town fish-a-man's town in the north, very north of Denmark, 30,000 people. Everybody knew everyone. There was no investors. There was actually one investor in our city but he didn't want to invest. So I took the car, drove four hours south, I was offered investment and at that moment I felt okay I'm not actually ready for it. I don't feel that the world is digitally ready at this point either but I knew that this is what I wanted to do so every step I took after that. At that time I had a gap year. I just finished high school but every step that I took after that have led me to where I am today. I went to a smaller town in Denmark called Orhus to study international business in my bachelor. After the bachelor and after knowing okay this is how international business works, economics and so on. I moved to Berlin to the start-up environment that Berlin is and I worked in a tech company just to understand what it takes to start a company yourself which has to you need to wear. When do you need to wear them? How do you need to delegate? Who do you need to delegate to? How do you how do you hire? How do you how do you fire? How do you do sales marketing? How do you do culture? All of these things. I wanted to learn by hand and not by book. So I worked in the start-up for three years then I went back to Copenhagen where I studied innovation in healthcare so you combine business with healthcare here and at the same time moved to work in biotech first as a student assistant and then finally leading the leading a marketing department or commercial department in in a biotech CDMO and in meantime I managed to get through a couple of depressions from psoriasis and later on I got Crohn's disease so I've had that for five years and that's have the biggest impact on me actually so far we talked a lot about psoriasis and how that impacts but inflammatory bowel disease which is Crohn's disease and also really collitis that have an even bigger impact and and it was tough doing all of this but it was also you know just extra fuel on the fire it just made me want to do this even more so after after that last year I went all in on this venture chronic care I got into an accelerator program where I found my two amazing friends and co-founders we only got to know each other yeah march this year but it's been been amazing so far and and we got investment we got it off the ground and I can proudly say that we have now built a community for people with inflammatory bowel disease and we just just got a thousand users or a thousand patients on this platform right now and we are seeing people thanking us for making something that they feel that they belong in and that's exactly what I've been looking for my entire life and I am extremely grateful that I can now give that back and I think 21 listening very if you have to boil it down what it is we do chronic care basically creates disease-specific peer communities and disease-specific tools such as tracking to the disease that actually tracking the things that actually matters to your disease and kind of make people feel less alone less stigmatized and feel more in control of their health and we are focused right now on inflammatory bowel disease first and then we want to hopefully be able to help people with any kind of chronic disease because the whole the whole notion in this is that normally you're and in general you medically treated okay so at least in in the west and in most of the globe you are medically treated for chronic diseases but where you're lacking stay emotional and the practical guidance to think that I've been lacking the thing that I've been feeling as well in my journey and that is 99% of your life that is outside the clinical walls but the disease doesn't stop when you go outside the clinic then why should the cast up? we feel that there's something that needs to be bridged here so that's that's where we are now with chronic care yeah well that's that's really helpful to understand tell me what it's like trying to be CEO I'm remembering something you said you said I have no idea what I'm doing but I'm doing it yeah I can't imagine a better phrase to describe what it's like being a CEO yeah I think I also think that was a realising writing this myself actually the moment I wrote that I realised that that was how it actually that because I was just putting out my feelings in in extension of everything that I wrote you Jerry and it is being a CEO is they're also a paradox it's it's it's it's the best and it's also sometimes the worst because I think it it comes down to I think you can boil it down to it's amazing that you're doing you are fulfilling your dream right you are the CEO of the company that you always wanted to build and at the same time you also do one responsible if this you fail so the fear of failure and the urge of success like they are they are there at the same time they have pulling you in each direction and and keeping you in like chess how would you say like they keep you stuck in a in a feeling of not feeling too happy or not feeling too sad it's it's something that I'm still getting used to I can definitely say that and some probably something to be honest something that I will never I will probably never get get used to being a CEO because I can imagine that a role like that evolves insanely over time I assume Jerry that you've you've felt this yourself and had a lot of clients that have evolved from you've probably seen them from year one to year 10 20 maybe I have and let me give you a little bit of wisdom from that and again this comes from my teachers as much as it comes from my own experience so paradox can feel the caught amus can feel being pulled in two different directions and the just like Pema teaches that impermanence is something that is happening all of the time and it can it can create that mind-fuck experience of just when I think I figured it out it all falls apart okay so if you can hear it there's a paradox in that as well the discomfort that comes along with paradox is rooted in the wish to resolve the tension so let me be more specific there's a tension that exists okay before I talked about like the very natural human impulse to see the good in the middle of the bat and the danger is that when we move towards the good when we move towards the light look at me look at the healing that I have created the danger is that we drop the suffering we drop the woundedness we drop the pain okay the advice and counsel right now is to understand that our task is actually to hold both simultaneously that is the mystery of the paradox the task is to not resolve the tension the tension that exists I have no what I no idea what I'm doing but I'm doing it anyway okay that is the singular mantra of being a leader I have no idea what I'm doing but I'm doing it anyway that is the single mantra of being an adult human I have no idea what I'm doing remember the tagline in reboot is leadership in the art of growing up the art of growing up is understanding that we can we're sophisticated beings. We can hold contradictory thoughts simultaneously. In fact, it's the hallmark of mental health to be able to hold the paradox, to be both grateful and loving toward the thing that we hate. Because there's a power in the paradox. If we move too quickly to resolve that, we lose that power that you will need in this journey of launching this business. It is both true. It is true that both chronic care is probably going to be the most free-wording thing you've ever done in your life and the biggest pain in the ass. That's normal. That's the strength. And so the only way to resolve it within ourselves is to actually create a little bit of distance from that paradox. What do I mean by that? You, it's really important to strive to succeed because this is important work. But I want you to understand something you've already succeeded in part because you've created a platform for dialogue. And so yes, I want you to hold with enthusiasm, with joy, with excitement, the possibility of this being cash flow break even, return money to your investors and be all the things you want it to be. But understand that that insight that you got when you were reading my book that you are enough just as you are, that holds even if chronic care doesn't become the thing you wanted it to be. You're smiling because you see what I'm talking about now. It's probably also something that I haven't, that I haven't set out loud, but I'm also afraid of the attachment that I make to the accomplishment of chronic care and my person, my being. Yes. And I don't want it to be attached to that because that is what drives me, but it is not who I am. But is that again? It is what drives me, but it is not who I am. I'm sorry, could you say it one more time? It's what drives me, but it's not who I am. All right, that's your mantra. And I think both can be, I think I can be successful in both without attaching myself to the company, but it's hard. It's difficult. It's a very difficult. And I want to be very, very difficult. I want to be very clear on that that if I could, I would lie if I said to you right now, Jerry, that if I did not succeed with, let's say the next, the next six months, if I did not succeed with keeping chronic alive, I foresee something at detrimental feeling to myself because who am I? If I'm not that, but this is what I've been thinking the last 12 years to fill in the holes of my of my existence, of my being, that's what I thought would, that's what I still think is some part healing me by helping others in the same situation. And that to me will, I will, that will never be a bad thing. But it's, I would lie if I said that I would be completely fine if it didn't work out with chronic care. Okay, I'm glad you're admitting that and I don't expect you to be completely fine. Okay, you of course you're going to be disappointed, but you can survive disappointment. Okay, you know how before you talked about how you developed these masks, I'm not the guy who has a rise, as I'm not the guy who can't go to a restaurant and feel comfortable. Okay, in the same time, putting your sense of self-worth and self-esteem into the form that is chronic care is another mask. It's another way to block the feelings. Because if it succeeds, look at me, I'm marvelous. Right? The truth is you are good regardless of whether or not the succeeds. You are worthy of love, safety and belonging. You are worthy of feeling good about yourself. Regardless, not only if chronic care succeeds, but whether or not you have psoriasis. Or arthritis. Or IBS. And isn't that true of all those people that you're building this community for? And if it's true for them, it's equally true for you. Absolutely. And you have to hold intention. These feelings, the wish to succeed. And simultaneously knowing that in your gut, no pun intended, in your gut, you are whole and worthy. And the form in which, in which your wish to be of service, to be of help, the form that it's currently taking chronic care, that may change over time. But the function of being of service to the 15-year-old kid who just got diagnosed with the disease that might lead others to call him a monster, that is with you for the rest of your life. How I am as a coach, as a writer. Okay, that changes form all the time. It's like I'm getting old. Why do I keep doing this? But the function of being a responder, a first responder to suffering, that stays with me. And in fact, as I've gotten older and as the forms have changed, it's gotten deeper. It's become clearer. That's your task from this elder to you. That's your task. You know, life put my book in your hands or life or your investors. God bless you. Right. God bless your investors for suggesting you read my book. Many thanks to them. Because they'll hear this podcast and they'll know what we're talking about. That's right. But they did something more important than even giving you my book. They helped make a connection between us. And that connection is going to extend to other people listening to this podcast. Because of your bravery of writing a note into the ether, never knowing whether or not I'd see it. So I want to thank them for that as well. Same here. Yeah. Oliver, I can't thank you enough for coming on the show. And sharing is, I can't thank you enough for reaching out to me. It really means the world to me to know that my work touches people. No, I just want to say, that it's a pleasure. It's something that I, as you said, I just write this out into the ether. I had no idea what was going to come from it. And what has come from it is it's nothing less than amazing. And I've learned a lot from your book and I keep learning. I have a feeling that that will continue. And very grateful that you invited me here to this podcast as well. And yeah, I'm sitting a little bit stunned because all of these things that we just went through and it, to me, it actually went super fast this hour. It's something that I didn't even, I didn't expect this to be the conversation, but I'm extremely happy that it was. And it's just opened up even, even more important thoughts for me. So thank you for that. Well, you're more than welcome. And as I said to you, even before we started recording, this is the beginning of our friendship, not the end. Absolutely. Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for writing to me and we will be in touch. Absolutely. If you enjoyed this episode and want to hear more, go to reboot.io/podcasts to listen to all past and present seasons of our show. And leave us a review at Apple Podcasts or Spotify. That's the best way for other people to find and enjoy the show just as you have done. And don't forget to join our mailing list at reboot.io/signup so you never miss an episode. Thank you again for listening. Being a great leader isn't just about what you do. It's about who you are. At reboot, we spent the last decade helping leaders like you navigate the complex train of professional growth and personal development. Our coaches understand that true leadership transformation happens when tactical excellence meets deep self-understanding. Whether you're scaling a startup or leading a Fortune 100 team, we meet you where you are and help you discover your authentic leadership style. Because leadership isn't about falling somebody else's playbook, it's about writing your own. Ready to transform your leadership? Learn more at reboot.io/coaching