Speaker 1Hello and welcome back to the James Kennedy podcast. I hope you're all feeling fantastic and if you're not that's okay too. I'm going to catch you off guard today by not starting the podcast by nagging you to subscribe, like, share, comment and leave a review or a rating for the podcast. I'm not going to do that. I'm not even going to mention subscribing to the podcast. So there. Now today's guest, this is the first guest we've had on the podcast that is an actual bona fide certified human rights barrister. That's right we're getting legal on your ass and we're going to be focusing on an issue that is very important to all of us, the issue of immigration and asylum. Now whichever side of the fence you are on this issue I am sure we're all agreed that we have very strong opinions about it and it's a very important issue. So because I'm so good to you guys I've managed to get the incredible Zahra Hassan to come and spend an hour with us giving us the lowdown on this issue. Zahra's been in the game a long time, she knows this issue inside and out and we're very lucky to have her time today previously an immigration asylum a public law barrister at Garden Court Chambers. Today Zahra is the advocacy director at the Joint Council for the Welfare of Immigrants. I'm super thankful to Zahra for taking time away from her important work to speak with us today and it's an honour to welcome onto the podcast Zahra Hassan. How are you?
Speaker 2I'm well James, thank you so much for having
Speaker 1me. I'm glad to hear it and also I should point out that we are recording this on the day that we've just received the news that our glorious dictator has just resigned. Today is a good day.
Speaker 2Yeah absolutely I mean it's brilliant in the sense that obviously you know finally the game is up for him but obviously there are lots of concerns about who's going to step in in his place and that cabinet is full of people who have an anti-migrant agenda so there are obviously concerns still for us at JCWI as to what the lay of the land is going to be soon.
Speaker 1Yeah definitely and wouldn't it be great if we had a left who had their shit together and were actually in any way effective as a meaningful opposition?
Speaker 2Yeah absolutely or you know any party that would really prioritise safety for migrants and refugees but unfortunately that's not the current the current situation.
Speaker 1No and so despite the immediate euphoria that we're both feeling that the clown will no longer be gracing our screens or our policies, the battle is very much far from won.
Speaker 2No absolutely not, absolutely not.
Speaker 1Well thank you so much for being with us. I know that you're super busy and you do really important work so I do appreciate you taking time away from that to come and speak with us today. I want to focus mostly on the domestic situation here in the UK for most of the chat but I thought just to start it would be interesting just to get your thoughts on what the picture is like more generally speaking on a global level with regards to asylum and immigration. I mean are we generally as you look at the world are we generally as a species moving in the direction of progress or is everywhere you look, kind of moving backwards just like we are here in the UK?
Speaker 2Yeah I mean I think that obviously you know the issue of people moving whether that's by choice or by force is something that you know lots of nations have kind of quite repressive laws and policies on and you know the key point really is that we know that the majority of refugees are in the global south. Yeah. So 80% refugees across the world live in the global south and the vast majority of refugees so at least 70% actually move to a neighbouring country if they're forced to leave their home. So the situation is obviously particularly bad in the global south in terms of like people having to move and having to you know uproot their lives, rebuild their lives somewhere else. But of course people also have to move to the UK and to neighbouring countries. Because of you know a vast range of issues whether that's war, whether that's persecution on the basis of their sexuality, whether they're escaping gender-based violence, whether they have been trafficked and particularly obviously in the last few years because of climate disaster as well. So you know we can see the situation kind of unfolding but really I think what's really important to remember is that this is just a situation of people having to rebuild their lives. And that is something that you know humanity has faced for centuries and there's so many reasons for that. But obviously that's something that people try and do in the UK as well and unfortunately this government is making it really really hard for them.
Speaker 1So bringing things closer to home then, where does the UK stand with regards to our treatment of immigrants and refugees in relation to our European neighbours?
Speaker 2Yeah. The UK stands in quite a bad position really. The UK welcomes far fewer refugees than our neighbouring European countries. The UK is also implementing some of the most repressive and hostile legislation and barriers to people seeking safety in this country. That obviously started to some extent in 2012 with the hostile environment which some people might be familiar with. But it's the kind of range of policies that sought to make life more safe for people. So I think that's a big thing. And I think that's something that's really important. And I think that's something that sort to make life very, very difficult for people who had moved to the UK, whether, you know, for whatever reason, by barring them access to basic services and also putting them at risk of immigration enforcement if they sought healthcare or sought, you know, reported crime to the police, things like that. And so the situation has been bad for a really long time. But what we've seen in the last year or so is Preeti Patel, as the home secretary, bringing in a raft of legislation and changes to the immigration rules, which are going to make the situation and make people's lives much, much harder. And that has obviously mainly manifested in the Nationality and Borders Act, which is one of the most draconian pieces of immigration laws that we've seen in decades, which essentially creates a two-tier system for asylum seekers. And so basically, people's. ability to seek safety in the UK depends on how they entered the UK. And the whole thing is so disingenuous because there are no safe routes for refugees to enter the UK. And the routes that the government has implemented have abjectly failed. And I can talk a little bit more about that in a bit. But on top of that, we also now have the Bill of Rights, which was laid before Parliament a couple of weeks ago. And that intends to scrap the Human Rights Act, which is a vital and fundamental piece of legislation which protects all of our rights, but particularly, of course, safeguards the rights of refugees and migrants. And, you know, that Bill of Rights seeks to basically expand the deportation regime, remove the ability for the European Court of Human Rights to scrutinise the sorts of decisions this government is making about refugees and asylum seekers. And, you know, then we additionally have this horrific Rwanda scheme where the government is trying to ship people who are claiming asylum in the UK to the other side of the world and a place where they have no connection to. So we can really see from that picture how extreme the situation is and how many people are really suffering at the moment at the hands of these very brutal policies.
Speaker 1Yeah. And I think that's the important thing to point out at this point, isn't it, is that we're talking about people. We're talking about human beings here. And because we've got such an awful media that always frame this issue only ever in terms of economics and politics and fear. I think that human element oftentimes does get lost in the mix, in the noise, you know. So could we speak on who it is that generally ends up coming to the UK seeking safe haven, where they come from and why?
Speaker 2Absolutely. I mean, so really the kind of key countries where they're fleeing and seeking asylum in the UK are people from Afghanistan, from Syria, from Iran, from Eritrea and from Sudan. And anyone who has any kind of interest or knowledge of the kind of geopolitical situation in those countries will know that those are all countries where people are suffering from extreme conditions in terms of the political situation, whether there's war, etc. So, you know, most of the people who are coming from those countries are actually granted asylum in the UK. But the issue is that there are no safe routes for them to come to the UK. So, you know, you can't claim asylum until you're in the country that you're planning to claim asylum in. So in the UK, you have to be in the country to actually make that application and for the Home Office to start processing it. And so and the resettlement routes that have been implemented for some of those places, but not all have failed, as I said. So, you know, we have, for example, the Syrian resettlement scheme, which was closed last year. The Afghan resettlement scheme was a complete shambles. Places were slashed by 3,000 this year, despite the government promising to resettle 5,000 Afghan people and, you know, even we've seen Like with Ukraine, you know, there's been the Ukrainian resettlement scheme, but that hasn't stopped 600 Ukrainian families having to seek homelessness assistance from local authorities in the UK. So really, there is this kind of picture of, well, people are unnecessarily crossing the channel, but that's not the reality. They have no choice. If they want to seek safety in this country, that is what many people are having to do. And the government's not creating any safe routes for people to have to avoid those journeys, which do claim lives, but instead trying to create a more hostile environment, which actually makes it even more dangerous for them. So there's no guarantee that they're going to have safety once they're here, which is really what we should be prioritising.
Speaker 1It's madness, isn't it, to think that these are some of the most vulnerable and in need people. On the planet, you know, they oftentimes experience things and endured things that the likes of us could never imagine in our wildest nightmares. You know, it's unspeakable. You know, torture, war, persecution, whole towns being razed to the ground, your whole family's being murdered. It's horrific. And it just doesn't make any sense to me that there's this mindset of why should we help? What's it got to do with us? That just doesn't make any sense to me as a human.
Speaker 2It doesn't make any sense. And I think it's important to kind of say that, yes, obviously, I've spoken about the kind of the countries where a lot of people do come from and the fact that they obviously experience, like you say, horrific problems in terms of war and violence. But seeking asylum is not just about that. There are people, like I said at the beginning, who are fleeing persecution on the basis of their sexuality or they're fleeing gender based violence. And, you know, if you were. If I were escaping any form of danger, whether that's kind of danger from our family or from communities on the basis of our religion or sexuality or gender, we'd hope that the place that we fled to would treat us with dignity and respect. But this government is not doing that. It seems actually hell bent on making the situation as undignified and as unsafe for people. And this, you know, to us makes no sense because there are practical steps they could take. To protect people like introducing travel documents, like introducing pathways to rejoin family here. But instead, their intent on brandishing cruelty towards refugees as a way of courting headlines and to sort of pander to certain groups of society. It's not a small group of society. And really, that's not what the what the general public want or believe. I think most people do think that people fleeing their homes, trying to rebuild. Their lives somewhere else and needing safety should be treated with dignity.
Speaker 1100%. And so before we talk about what this government is doing to trash the legal protections and the moral protections of refugees in this country, could we briefly discuss where we were starting from before that? What were we committed to legally and morally before this government came along and put it all through the shredder?
Speaker 2Yeah, so, I mean. There's obviously what the situation is legally, and then there's what the situation is in reality, right? The situation legally previously, of course, the UK has been signatory to the Refugee Convention, which means we have an obligation to ensure that people who claim asylum in this country are treated fairly and they have their asylum claims processed. If their asylum claim is refused, they have a right of appeal to our court. And essentially, there are. There are. Various kind of legal safeguards within the Refugee Convention, which acknowledge that, you know, someone fleeing their home, someone who has had no choice or who has had to leave their home very quickly, may not have the same kind of level of evidence that, you know, someone might have in a different kind of legal context. Because, you know, they're in a rush. They can't collect all their documents. They're often quite isolated. Yeah. On top of that, obviously, people who've had to flee. They've experienced an immense amount of trauma. They could be survivors of torture, trafficking, gender-based violence. They could have severe mental health issues. And so that also kind of creates difficulties in how they can present their own case. And that's why, obviously, the support of lawyers is so important. So the Refugee Convention and the kind of accompanying policies that, you know, are implemented in the UK recognize that. And we obviously also have the Human Rights Act. The Human Rights Act, which also acknowledges the other kind of circumstances in which someone should be able to rebuild their lives in the UK, whether that's because, you know, leaving the UK would be detrimental to their physical or mental health or because they have a family and private life here. So those are really fundamental safeguards and really basic, you know, moral values of what we should respect and what people should be able to do in order to rebuild their lives. And to represent what their position is. Now, obviously, as someone who used to practice in the legal system, I can say that it's not always respected, even before all this, all these changes. It's not that you always go into court and judges are always fair or that the system treats people fairly. In some ways, I would argue the system was built to be unfair. But what this new legislation is doing is trying to rip that to shreds. It's trying to abdicate our responsibilities under the Refugee Convention. It is redefining key aspects of the Refugee Convention. And this government is trying to scrap the Human Rights Act. So it is a really, really severe kind of situation at the moment in terms of how brutal this government's agenda is in terms of, you know, being anti-refugee.
Speaker 1Oh, man. God, it really makes your blood boil, this stuff, doesn't it? Could you describe. For the listeners, what the Nationality and Borders Bill is, please.
Speaker 2Yeah, absolutely. So the Nationality and Borders Bill is a piece of legislation that recently passed. And what it does is it really tries to kind of, as I said, redefine the kind of system of asylum in this country and really goes against some of its fundamental tenets. So the key thing that the bill is doing really is trying to criminalize people who are seeking asylum. And so people who enter the UK via kind of crossing the channel will receive differential treatment to people who've come to the UK through another means and claimed asylum through another means. And like I said, that's a really cruel and disingenuous policy because it suggests that people have some other choice. And as I've said, they don't. So what it. What it really is doing is completely abdicating any responsibility to actually process people's asylum claims. What it also is doing is it's kind of creating, you know, lots and lots of different changes, which will make it harder for people to join their family in the UK, to sort of rebuild their lives in the UK. And, you know, that obviously comes with this horrific Rwanda scheme. And that's obviously connected to the kind of Bill of Rights, like the Bill of Rights is trying to enable the Rwanda scheme. So we can't see this legislation in isolation. It comes as a kind of wholesale attack against migrants and refugees. And that includes the Policing Act as well. So, yeah, it really fits into this kind of broader picture, which is trying to, like, entrench racism in the UK.
Speaker 1Well, the question that's screaming out at me listening. To this is why, you know, why, why do they need to do this? I don't understand.
Speaker 2Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, there are a few reasons why. Now, obviously, we know that this government has had many, many, many political scandals. And Boris Johnson, obviously, as we said at the beginning, likely to resign today. You know, over 30 of his ministers have resigned in the last 24 hours. And what this government is doing is kind of twofold. Firstly, it has an anti-migrant agenda. That is something that the Conservative Party has had for, you know, obviously kind of decades, centuries, whatever. And it wants to entrench that because it really does have a kind of ideological stance against migration. But further to that, it also has consistently used. Migrants and refugees as scapegoats for their own political failures. And so the timing of these kind of laws and policies is no coincidence. You know, we're having things like the Rwanda scheme being announced just when they've had their whole party gate scandal. And that's not to say that, you know, those schemes are just a distraction because they're not. They are material things that impact people's lives. They are racist. They are, you know, discriminatory. they exist to oppress people but the timing of it serves a kind of dual purpose of also trying to kind of distract from the government's own failings and for them to seem to be like they're doing something but actually there's no you know no one's calling for these things no one's asked for the Rwanda scheme no one's asked for the Nationality and Borders Act um but it's really that kind of it's quite a complex picture but it's really like you know both oppression and like shoring up their own power um by distracting from their own failings um so that's why I think these things have have come into place in the last
Speaker 1year. Right yeah I know that makes a lot of sense I mean like fear is always the easy sell isn't it you know I mean and that's something that the the Conservatives are so good at peddling they love that one you know don't look at us look at the look at the bad guy over there you know.
Speaker 2Exactly exactly. So
Speaker 1how has this been affected by the COVID-19 pandemic? Brexit then does that play a role?
Speaker 2So you know there have been quite a few ways in which it's impacted I mean obviously kind of a massive impact has been um the way in which EU nationals in this country are being treated as well um now obviously kind of in terms of the refugee situation Brexit has sort of led to this shift in trying to kind of suggest that there needs to be this sort of isolation. Yeah and I think that's a really important aspect of what we're seeing is that we're seeing a lot of people in the EU who are trying to remove scrutiny and accountability from any kind of international standards and that's kind of how they're trying to justify what they're doing through the Bill of Rights which is trying to kind of remove scrutiny and accountability from the European Court of Human Rights but that court is is an international court it's not an EU court um so it's kind of trying to muddy the waters to say well people said that they wanted Brexit and therefore this gives us a mandate to do all these other things. And obviously the the kind of asylum system in this country um needs to be a system in which people's safety is prioritised that that is the point of an asylum claim it's about offering safety and sanctuary to people who who need it um and that's not the priority of this government um and that's not what any of these pieces of legislation uh seek to do but they're using that language and they're saying that's what they're doing but but it it's just not true.
Speaker 1Well with regard to that safety and sanctuary that we supposedly offer um to refugees would it be possible to speak on what the actual true daily reality of life is like within that so-called sanctuary because we see all this disinformation in the mainstream media about how refugees are getting you know 300 pounds a day or a week or whatever whatever it is uh which we know is clearly nonsense so it'd be interesting if if possible if you could shine a light on what the actual true reality on a daily basis is like for refugees being granted asylum in this country.
Speaker 2I mean I think the reality is that you know these these are people you know like like both of us I mean you know I come from a migrant background um you know these these are people who have come here to kind of rebuild their lives for whatever reason and you know the situation for um refugees and asylum seekers in this country is extremely hostile and like I um spoke about you know people while they're waiting for their asylum claims to be resolved some people are being placed in you know these kind of old army barracks sites like napier barracks which are horrific you know really really terrible conditions you know to the point where a high court said last year that it's unlawful to be placing people in these in these sorts of sites um you know then you have people who are on asylum support they get you know about 30 pounds a week which is not enough to live off particularly when the cost of living is so high. um and then you know you also have the fact that I think it was just um in in Scotland the other week you know there were some far-right people who went and targeted asylum seekers who were living um in in a nearby um hotel yeah and so you know life isn't easy it's not as though people come to the UK and everything is easy and that's why when we talk about safety for refugees we're not just talking about safe routes and people being able to come to the UK and everything is safe but we're also talking about people being treated with dignity and respect whilst they're living um in the UK um now obviously once people are granted uh refugee status um you know there are certain ways in which they can then start to rebuild their lives and start to kind of share things with their family start to work but at the moment you know asylum seekers don't have the right to work so they are dependent on you know that kind of really you know minuscule amount of subsistence um and there are such big delays in the system that sometimes it takes years for their cases to be resolved so and and when we're saying that you know the the vast majority of people are then recognized as refugees how can we say that this is a justifiable way to treat people um when they're trying to trying to seek safety it's
Speaker 1so sad isn't it and to think how terrifying it must be as well to be in this situation you know having experience with people who have been experienced everything they've experienced and and had to flee your homeland and leave behind your culture your language your lifestyle your career your job your hopes your dreams your family your friends your ambitions to to end up in a foreign land thousands of miles away where you you don't know the culture you don't speak the language perhaps and to be treated this way it must be so isolating and so terrifying it's so sad isn't
Speaker 2it yeah definitely and I think you know there's also just to kind of re-emphasize how these are these are just these are people who are like us who just um you know need support and you know JCWI uh works with a lot of refugees and asylum seekers and you know we have we have a a person who we support who's called who we will call Ahmad and he is a climate activist in Afghanistan and he worked with the foreign um commonwealth and development office on a on climate justice projects in Afghanistan um and then when the Taliban took over last year he was at risk of reprisal because he worked with the British government but there's no safe route for him to come to the UK and so he's still living and hiding in Afghanistan um because as I said the Afghan resettlement scheme was slashed um and now one in four people crossing the channel is Afghan and so these are the realities of people's lives you know it's the people who are activists people who have families um people who you know have beliefs people who may be um queer or trans they're they're people who for whatever reason need support and this government is trying to build you know the highest walls possible um to prevent them from from accessing that yeah it's
Speaker 1a bloody disgrace man I mean you can you can judge how civilized society is by how well they treat the most needy among them and on those terms we are not being painted in a very good way and I think that's a good light by this current government
Speaker 2at all no absolutely and I think that's why you know I really think it's important that we collectively resist this um you know I know a lot of what I said has been quite depressing so let me try and lighten the mood a little bit you know you know despite the horrific things that are going on through law and through policy we have seen immense community resistance to it totally yeah we have seen across the country we've seen existing immigration raids showing up in their hundreds whether that's been in Peckham or in Dalston or you know what happened in in Scotland as well yeah we have seen people lying on the floor to stop people being taken to the Rwanda flight to stop people being taken to deportation flights to Nigeria and Ghana so we are seeing a movement building of people who are actually willing to stand up and say we are not going to accept that this is happening um you know on our doorstep to our neighbours to our communities um and and we're going to do something about it and I think that movement's only growing and I just would love as many people as possible to join it yeah
Speaker 1totally and when people come together like that it works I mean we've seen that time and time again in all of the examples you've just listed as well you know from Peckham to Scotland when the community come out on mass like that it works and it's absolutely beautiful to see as well isn't
Speaker 2it yeah absolutely and I think it's really important to remember that you know this is really about uh protecting our communities um and protecting each other um you know we can see that people you know immigration raids are a really good example of this you know people are literally taken from their homes in the middle of the night um you know by immigration enforcement taken to detention centres um not able to access support easily not access they're not able to access lawyers easily um and then you know served with removal directions to a country that maybe they have fled from or like now a country like Rwanda where they might they won't have any connection to and people are standing up and saying we don't accept that this is going to happen to the person who lives down the road from me the person who lives you know um on on the street nearby the person who is my neighbour people are saying they're not going to let people in our community be taken by by this government um in order to enforce their racist policies so you know I think we have seen a building in kind of public mobilization and the power of protest as well um which is you know ironic given that this government is also trying to repress the right to protest through the policing act but people that people are still resisting and resisting in their in their hundreds um you know we've probably had thousands of people take action over the last year um cumulatively so that in itself i think is really powerful and something we have to continue to to grow 100
Speaker 1no thanks for raising that because it is such a powerful thing to behold you know and personally brings a tear to my eye when you see the footage of you know like in um in scotland you know where the entire community came out and just stood around the police van and said no you're not taking them you know and then they had to back out and it happens time and time again which is why the government is bringing in this policing courts bill it's because they want to crush the power of public protest because it works it's the in fact it's the only thing that ever has worked so we need to make sure that we keep the pressure on on this issue and any and any other issue because it's the only thing that ever works and and that and they know that which is why they're bringing in these these draconian laws to to to make public protests essentially a criminal act so yeah i think it's really important to remind ourselves that when the people stand up the system falls down yeah
Speaker 2absolutely and i think you know there's obviously it's it's about you know combining all of the different types of work there's so many of us you know in this movement are trying to do and ensure that we together collectively resist it and there is you know obviously work that's being done through the kind of like policy front there's obviously kind of a lot of legal work a lot of legal challenges things like the rwanda scheme um but then really the power is with the people the power is with mass mobilization um and so i think you know the combination of all those people doing different kind of strands of work but you know significantly building power in our communities is so important and so really encourage people to think about whether they you know would be interested in joining their local anti-raids group there are groups across the country that mobilize to resist immigration raids um there are also groups like stop deportations um lesbian and gay support the migrants that are working to also support people who are in detention or who are being um you know put on deportation getting involved in those sorts of grassroots community groups i think is vital brilliant yeah
Speaker 1and we'll look back in at the end as to some ways that people can get involved with this as you said it can get very bleak and depressing and it is it is but i'd like to switch gears just for a second and and focus on the many advantages and benefits brought to a host country by immigration it seems obvious to me but it's also been confirmed time and time again in countless studies around the world that supporting immigration brings nothing but benefits to the host country in terms of the economy in terms of the labor market the consumer market um and culturally speaking as well you know the whole culture and social fabric gets enhanced by supporting immigration so it shouldn't be about that you know it should be a default reaction towards um a moral feeling of a duty of care but i think it would be worth shining a light on the fact that it does actually benefit this country and any country to support immigration yeah
Speaker 2i mean i think it's a really it's a tricky question because i guess the the issue is is the you know obviously having a kind of uh plurality of communities and people in a country is in itself vital and important i think what i would really shine a light on though is the fact that you know there's a kind of uh saying within like the kind of anti-racist community which is like we are here because they were there um and i think we have to kind of recognize or really contend with the fact that it's not about you know the uk being a country that's sort of bringing people in who can benefit you know white british people is understanding that actually migrant communities built this country whether it was through you know the the kind of exploits of colonialism or whether it was because of migration or because of the fact that you know the the kind of exploits of colonialism in the 70s and 80s where black and brown communities um you know literally created so much of the infrastructure whether it's the nhs whether it's kind of local businesses um you know care work migrant communities have been fundamental in actually building the wealth of this country and so people often don't reckon with that and don't understand that and so i think you know i i i would be hesitant to create a narrative which is you know we should welcome these people in because this is what they bring to us we actually have to think about what you know my own communities have brought to uh you know other people in this country and why actually there needs to be a plurality of us all you know really respecting each other in that way um so yeah i i would say that that's something i would really highlight and i think something people need to contend with because you know the immigration laws in this country have been created as a result of britain's colonial uh legacy and that's something that's not often talked about um migration is seen as this sort of thing that's separate or thing that's kind of a new way of regulating something that's going on in another part of the world you know people talk about there being crises and then immigration laws coming in as a result of that that's not actually how historically it happened in this country and that's also not really a kind of genuine way of depicting it but i think that's something that's kind of a new way of regulating the situation you know immigration laws were created as a result of colonialism and as a result of the uk wanting to bring in people from certain um of its previous colonial exploits into the uk to to work or to live so it's very much a controlled system that was created as a result of that um and we have to understand it i think in that context excellent
Speaker 1point yeah and i think certainly in britain we need to remember that a lot of the regions now that are still suffering from conflict and um poverty are in those situations because we basically exploited and looted and raped and pillaged those countries carved them up and then just walked away and left it there in a mess you know so it is in incredibly in poor taste and an abdication of any sense of responsibility for the problems you know that we ourselves have caused to then deny the people fleeing these regions um safe haven and we owe the people of these regions a debt because you know like the united states for example was built on migrant labor you know as soon as they'd you know obviously eradicated the uh the native population and in terms of the uk you know our whole empire was built on exploitation and looting of other people's riches and assets
Speaker 2yeah absolutely and i think what we what we see really is this continued uh sort of pattern of the british government abdicating responsibility for the people of these regions and i think that's what's happening in afghanistan and iraq um we see them trying to abdicate responsibility from our kind of international obligations under the refugee convention abdicating responsibility for what's what's happened in places like afghanistan and iraq um abdicating responsibility for its colonial past um and trying then to actually use migrants as the scapegoats um actually trying to blame them um for the kind of issues that they have created in this country and i think that's what's happening in this country and i think it's really important to say you know one of the things that is commonly said about migration or refugees is that well you know we don't have space we don't have the resources we're in a cost of living crisis you know how can we how how can we kind of have you know borders which you know have a lack of border controls which mean loads of people come come to the country and i think what's really really important to take it back to is it's just this pattern of the government trying to use migrants as scapegoats for its own economic and political failures we know that you know most of the wealth in this country is hoarded by a very tiny proportion of people billionaires millionaires you know the top one percent if there was a redistribution of wealth and a redistribution um you know of space we we would have of course like the resources to support every single person in this country and it's not that we don't already have the resources to support um migrants and refugees but that is a clear example of migrants and refugees becoming the scapegoats because why are we not criticizing these people who hoard all the wealth and instead criticize people who are who are trying to seek safety it doesn't it doesn't match up it doesn't make any sense in terms of what people are actually bringing and what they actually yeah hold as well
Speaker 1100 man you were dropping so many truth bombs all over the place i love it you've also answered some of the other questions i was going to ask so so we'll move on to the next segment which is as i mentioned before we uh before we pressed record here i wanted to ask you a few popular pub questions i want to play devil's advocate a little bit here and ask some questions that surely um anyone listening to this probably isn't going to want me to ask or need me to ask on their behalf but for anyone that's still on the fence or you know is bought into the propaganda a little bit of the misinformation um i want to try and dispel a few myths a few popular you know daily mail migrants myths if we can um i'm gonna wince asking these and i'm sure you're gonna wince i happen to answer them so apologies and advance but i think it would be useful for the conversation the broader narrative to actually dispel some of this stuff once and for all yeah so i think one of the the main ones that we hear time and time again is why would somebody fleeing persecution make the extra effort to cross the channel to come to the uk when they're already in a safe country
Speaker 2such as france yeah i mean so i think that there are lots of different reasons why people might want to come to the uk um and the first thing to say is that there is no obligation under the refugee convention for people to have to claim asylum in the first uh you know quote-unquote safe country that they land in right um so there's no obligation for them to have to stay in france or germany etc obviously also that question kind of suggests that we should always be placing responsibility on the country that is kind of um closer to them but you know uh nearest to us so if people said well the country to this side should take responsibility then obviously that country could say well this country should take responsibility and it goes on and on and on until you're you're right back where you started so the whole system crumbles it doesn't it doesn't work on top of that you have so many reasons why people particularly from the countries we talked about might want to come to the uk they might have family here and like we've said you know if i had to you know flee my home the first place i would go is to a country where i had family that makes completely complete sense if you're trying to rebuild your life you go somewhere where you have a connection to there are also there's also the language point so there are people who come from countries where and they speak english because of britain's colonial legacy and therefore for them to um it makes sense to claim asylum in the uk in a place where there's a language and a culture that they um can understand and are familiar with they may have some other form of cultural connection to this country and again it kind of goes back to our colonial roots you know there are there are communities um in this country um of people who come from certain backgrounds and so they may feel more at home um in the uk than they would elsewhere and that's because of yeah the uk's own history um and also they might not be safe um in france or in another european country because people who have been trafficked who there might be trafficking networks in those countries that they're trying to flee um then there may be other connections there that mean that they wouldn't be safe there are other reasons why they may actually have to go further afield and so it's not as simple as well france is safe and so all people should stay in france as a there are loads of reasons why that isn't the situation that people want to be in and in particular they have no obligation to do that anyway under under the refugee convention they they can claim asylum wherever they feel most safe to do so and
Speaker 1it's not as if countries such as france are saying hey guys you know make yourself at home you know i mean they're doing everything they can to make the situation as difficult and as uncomfortable as they can to move the problem elsewhere
Speaker 2exactly exactly so you know there's obviously the hostility that kind of many european countries but really what it is about is that we have to recognize that you know there is a reason there's a reason that people want to come to the uk and i've highlighted a few of those reasons yeah um and so this kind of demonization of migrants and refugees is somehow you know doing this unnecessarily just doesn't make any sense why would anyone put themselves in a situation where they have to you know cross a channel in dangerous circumstances unless yeah for them it was important and they had no choice or it was a necessary choice for them um because of you know the fact that they would want to rebuild their lives in the uk so it is really you know it's it's immoral to kind of say that responsibility should be elsewhere um it doesn't work because the whole system disintegrates if we use that logic but also we have to respect that and we have to respect that and we have to respect that everyone's right and dignity to rebuild their lives where they want to because that's what that's what we would all expect individually as um you know if we were in that situation
Speaker 1100 i'm brilliantly put as well thanks for answering that um i've got two more yeah go for it yeah so i'm hoping that no one tunes in at this point and they and they think that these are my my genuine questions i'm trying to do a community service here you know on behalf of on behalf of broadening the narrative so uh again another point i want to make is that popular one another daily mail favorite is um why is it mostly young men that we see arriving at the shores and where are the women
Speaker 2and children yeah i mean i think you know there's also obviously the fact that there are women and children who of course um cross channels um there are women and children who of course come to the uk and claim asylum also important to note that actually many uh child asylum seekers are are are kind of assessed by the home office to be older than they actually are um and we can have a whole other podcast on why that is and the kind of um racial stereotyping reasons as to why that happens um so so there's that angle of it as well but in terms of men who do come to the uk on their own um obviously there are so many reasons why that is um but particularly because obviously sometimes people feel that if they have families they should come to the uk first and try and settle before trying to bring their families over because they feel that's the safest thing to do um and that is completely understandable and relatable and when i was practicing um as a barrister i had many many many cases um like that you know jcwi also has another client you know syrian client who has two sisters living in the uk for example and he was targeted by the regime in syria but there was no way for him to get here to join his sisters apart from crossing the channel so you also have situations of people who already have family here and who are who are coming here um in order to to join their family and to rebuild their lives um as a as a community um so yeah i think this kind of demonization of young single men and this suggestion that well we can send them to rwanda and that's okay or you know somehow there's this kind of dangerousness narrative which i think plays into race racial stereotypes really um and i think that's a really important thing to think about and that's to be honest what it's about um it's you know but as i've said these are people who who do have families who do have communities and who have very clear reasons why they want to be here um and why they might want to bring their families here with them
Speaker 1that makes a lot of sense i hope that anyone listening to that is that's you know not going to have any further questions on that front i mean you know it pains you to have to even ask it or answer it doesn't it you know yeah it's it's such for me i find it unstomachable how these headlines can be written i mean who are these people that write these headlines and stir it up like this you know how can you sleep at night it just it blows my mind um okay i've got one more um which i've personally heard many many times i'm sure you have uh why should we help these people when we've got enough problems of our own you've mentioned the cost of living crisis and you know times are hard for everybody you know how can we accommodate these extra problems when we've got enough
Speaker 2problems of our own yeah um so i think you know obviously like i said before when we talk about wealth and who kind of owns the wealth in this country you know we know that it's the top one percent who hoard all the wealth and so obviously um there is an inequality but that inequality is not created by migrants and refugees um it's created by the richest people in the country who don't care about normal people like me and you and the people listening to this program um so that that's the problem that really is the problem um and so the solution to that is obviously in terms of what is done to redistribute that wealth and what is done to create a society where everyone has fair access to resources and to you know the basic things they need in order to live a comfortable and happy life and again that that problem does not lie with refugees and migrants it lies with um government decision making and we've seen how this government has completely screwed people over over the pandemic um how you know it's not like the cost of living crisis has happened in the abstract you know there are government failures that have led to um us being in a shockingly bad economic situation um and that's not to say that there isn't you know obviously like the situation for migrants and refugees means that you know we all need to be working as a community to be able to do what we need to do to be able to do what we need to do to support each other um because we can see that the richest people in society we can see that this government doesn't have our best interests at heart um and so rather than trying to alienate each other and point the finger and find someone else to blame um which is something that is driven by kind of anti-migrant and racist narratives we should actually be uniting as a community against the people who are in power um to demand better um and i think that is kind of how we can try and understand that we're all facing you know the kind of same struggles obviously have gone through things that you know maybe we haven't but maybe also a lot of people in this country can relate to some of the things that they've experienced whether that's persecution because they're gay or whether that's because they've been a survivor of domestic abuse so like really there is so much that we can unite over um and also you know it's also about the fact that if someone is fleeing danger there's obviously a moral obligation that we should be supporting them um especially when we know that there are the resources in this country we we are a country that does have a lot of wealth to be able to to do that um and we just need to ask what is actually happening with the kind of money that people are paying into taxes what is this government actually doing with it that's useful and that's morally right i would say probably very very very
Speaker 1little beautiful thank you so much for answering that man i really do appreciate it you're welcome i'm just looking at the clock now as well and i know that you've got to go soon so um i want to try and end if possible on a positive and let people know what they can do to actually get involved and help on this issue so what are some of the things where can people go to get involved anyone that's been listening to this today now who is super pumped up and inspired and angered and enraged and wants to get involved and help this cause where can they go what can they
Speaker 2do yeah definitely so um as i said there are lots of anti-raids groups across the country and these are groups of people who work in their local communities to resist immigration raids so to you know essentially show up on the streets and to try and stop people being taken from their homes and to try and support their neighbors so you know if you look up the anti-raids network on twitter or on the internet you'll see a list of all the groups across the country and i'd really encourage you to start organizing with them and join them um there are also groups that try and challenge deportation groups and there are also groups that try and challenge deportation specifically so groups like um stop deportations and groups like lesbians and gays support migrants and then there are also groups that work specifically with people in immigration detention so there's so as detainee support um there's detention action as well and obviously you know you also i would encourage you to support the work we're doing at jcwi we do a whole host of work to try and challenge these these brutal and that's through policy through campaigning or through community organizing um and so you know i'd encourage you to follow us on twitter to try and undertake some of our actions that we do to target mps or to target you know other um corporations whether that's the airlines that are you know putting people on these planes and taking them to rwanda um or whether it's you know other other kind of groups that are complicit in this sort of oppression um and i'd also encourage you to basically think about the ways that you can organize in your own communities you know everything has to start somewhere there's a huge movement already building you know show up to the protests that are going on show up to um the actions that are taking place but you know i think we all need to be a bit imaginative at this time as well and think about what are the gaps what can i do um to actually support people in my community and to resist this you know racism and brutality um so you know there's loads of space to be thinking creatively about what more we can do um together and there are so many groups popping up every week at the moment um because of that so i would encourage people to tap into that as well and think about what you can do at a local level but also at a national level brilliant oh
Speaker 1there's tons there thank you for that well there's clearly still a lot of work to be done yeah but as you've shown us in several examples now you know when we come together and we get out there anything's possible exactly
Speaker 2exactly if we're united together you know we are stronger that's the the reality of it
Speaker 1100 was there i gotta let you go so thank you so much for giving us your time today we really do appreciate it it's been an absolutely explosive hour jam-packed full of information and thanks so much for answering all of my questions it's been great to chat with you and thanks so much for all of the amazing work that you're doing
Speaker 2as well no thank you james thanks so much it was really great to speak so thanks for having me
Speaker 1anytime at all thank you sarah speak to take care
Speaker 2bye-bye bye-bye wow
Speaker 1zara hassan ladies and gentlemen how awesome was she like there's clearly nothing she doesn't know on this issue and it's the first uh barrister we've had on the show as well so then you know that's awesome given that fact i thought she was very patient and very uh clear and explaining stuff and answering my stupid you know pub questions and stuff so hats off to zara for working so hard on what is such an important issue it's something that it really really presses a nerve with me man when you see the treatment of some of the world's desperate people and then when you see people supporting the actions of the government based on nothing more than ignorance usually derived from a daily mail headline the whole thing can get pretty sick and it's very sad but as zara said you know there's plenty of examples real heart-wrenchingly beautiful moments when you see an entire town of working class people coming out and surrounding a police van saying no you're not taking them they're not deporting these people these are these are members of our community and they're staying and that's the britain that i know that that is the majority of people as well so as dire as the current situation is and looks set to be getting a lot worse as well with this shameless and disgraceful government that we've got right now there's still always a ton of hope and we need to focus on that and stay strong and keep pushing and keep fighting back if you want to get involved with the joint council for the welfare of immigrants the people that zara is working for currently you can check those guys out at jcwi.org.uk they're on twitter at jcwi underscore uk and if you want to follow zara directly on twitter it's at z-e-d-h-a-s-3 and she also recommended checking out the anti-raids group so check out anti-raids.net or on twitter you can follow them at anti-raids so follow your local group and find out you know what what's happening in your area and make sure please get out there and support the cause it's so important i really hope you enjoyed that episode and found it informative and insightful i sure as hell did if there's anyone you think that needs to hear this information somebody that you know has an opposing view or is on the fence with this really important issue um please share the episode with them the whole point of doing these is not to preach at the converted but to reach new people people who may know nothing at all about these issues or people who may have an opposing view you know the more the merrier we need to get more people on the right side of the issue as always please do subscribe to the podcast it really helps me out um you know comment like share leave a review if you can click the star ratings button it helps me out and i'll see you next time fascinating stuff um so stay tuned have a great week look after yourselves take care of each other and i will see you next week have a good week love you guys
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