[Music] Hi everyone and welcome to the Culture Exchange podcast. My name is Khauke. Hello everyone, my name is Marie Christine. Together we are hosting this podcast for the international community where we talk about living and working abroad, expat life and welcoming special guests who share their expertise. With our Culture Exchange podcast, we are providing a platform regarding the topics of culture, identity and belonging to raise awareness and give insights on how to navigate the challenges and opportunities of a multi-cultural life. Join us on our journey around the world. [Music] So today we embark on a journey with Rooms Van Raken, co-author of the book Third Culture Kids, growing up among worlds. And the so-called Bible for TCKs because it has become the essential guides. Not just for TCKs, but also for their respective families. Rooms Van Raken, so thrilled that you are on our show today. Thanks so much for being here. Thanks for having me. I don't know how to do all this technical stuff, but I love it when people who do invite me to share that the importance of, you know, the topic and the message can really get out. And so I appreciate very much that you've invited me. Thanks so much for being our guest today, Roos. Roos, can you share more about your own experience as a sort of culture kid? How it shaped your perspective of the world and how it inspired you to write the book, actually? Well, certainly that my life story is what I work from and why I do what I do. It begins actually before me. My father was a third culture kid. He was born and raised in what was then Persia. And so then he, as a good TCK, went to Africa. And he was an educator. So I was born in Colonel Nigeria. And at that particular point, you know, life was normal for me. I grew up there. As any kid going up, what you do and what you know is normal. So it wasn't until I went back to the States when I was 13. That suddenly I didn't feel normal anymore. Because although I had grown up knowing that I was a US American. And assuming that when I got back actually to eighth grade, which is a terrible year anyway for anybody probably playing with me. I just was a fish out of water. I had no idea what they were talking about. Of course it's pre-internet days. So I don't know who Elvis is. I don't know how to swim. I don't know how to ice skate. I don't know how to do all the things kids did. And it never occurred to me that I had other skills. They didn't have, I could really bargain well in market. But nobody cared. They know it's like, okay. And in those days, I could play soccer well. But nobody was playing soccer in the States. And they were calling football this game that you're throwing the ball. Yes, thinking that I think this is not football. So I realized very soon that the kids thought I was weird. And when they said where you from and I said Nigeria, that was not the right answer because then they laughed at me. And I looked at that point. It was pre-integration. So I looked like the other kids in my class. And they had no idea why I didn't know what they did. And I had no idea either because the rest of them seemed to know what was going on. It was, you know, what's the matter with me? Then I went on. I went, went to nursing school, met my husband during that time. And he was in medical school. And so we got married. And then when he was a senior, we went back to, we tried to go to Nigeria for his elective. And they wouldn't give me a visa, which was shocking to me because I've been born there. But at that time there was some political reasons. I thought I can't believe the country of my birth will not give me a visa. You know, so that was probably, I didn't know it was about to be taken. But, you know, just so we wound up in Liberia. And at Christmas, we went over to see my parents. We got a visa from Liberia. So it was the first time in 12 years. And all of a sudden, this world I had put away was there. And I knew it. The oranges were green. Like they're supposed to be in, you know, the market smelled right. And so we went back to the States and my husband was an intern. And he was busy. We moved to a city I didn't know. And I had my first really big depression. And when I looked back at it, I think it's, I had never really grieved any of my losses when I left at 13. So, you know, I got through that time and then we were in the Navy and I went to Liberia long term. And at some point my daughter was going to leave a few months ahead of us. And suddenly I felt that old depression. And I thought, what is this? You know, I have such a good life. I love my husband. I have three wonderful kids. I love what we're doing. What is this thing inside? So I decided to start generally trying to understand it. And that became my first book. But what I realized, I thought this must have something to do with my league. My daughter's leaving. I went to boarding school at six. So I started my first night in boarding school. And suddenly I could feel that well eventually that became letters never sent. But through that process, I was so surprised because the very goodness of my life had kept me from dealing with the loss. And one of the things, certainly in this life, is it's a paradox. It's a tremendous paradox. And I think for many of us who grew up in it is like if I say it was hard to say goodbye, then I'm denying my book. That's how it started for me. And then I found out more about the topic, but that's the beginning. How this began. Yes, that's so interesting. I was decades ago, but however, it could be also any story of today's TCK child or kids. Exactly. Ruth, I want to talk a little bit about the evolution of the TCK concept. And I have to share with you before that it was 2008 when I was in Hong Kong actually with a tiny baby myself. At that time, living as an expert, it was the first time that I got re-commended and came across your book. Third culture, yes. And again, each time we moved as a family and lived internationally then in Singapore, Japan, or back to Germany, your book. This book was and is a great ongoing resources. It was for myself or anyone I know for my friends as well. So I wanted to go a little bit back to the evolution because the TCK concept has evolved over the editions. And Ruth could you walk us through the journey of its evolution and how it has become an essential guide for TCKs and their families. Because it's now actually the third edition, right? Most recent edition. I'd like to write a fourth. I don't know if I can. Yes. Things to fix and things to grow. And in fact, that's why when people say survival, I think, well, you have to be careful because I think one thing is not like so changeable. Ars is, you can't evolve because we're learning all the time. At the beginning, Dr. Ruth, who seemed went to India in the 50s and she was looking at families or people who are doing business cross culturally. And she noticed there was, you know, people who had come from the States and were working in India, had come from one place, first culture, gone to another second. And then she kind of set up this interstitial culture and she realized that the kids of these people had different characteristics than her students in Michigan state. So for one of the better term, they had called the adult third culture adults and so she said these are third culture kids. And that these people had formed the people who were living and working over there, but not really immigrants. They were there for their careers had developed like this subculture of this way of doing international lifestyle that was, you know, they were internationally mobile. Both them and the community they lived in and there was cross cultural mobility, but of course they were an expected repatriation, which is different from an immigrant experience. And often they had assist to my identity because they were there with foreign service or military, missionary or whatever. And so there
was the beginning of the term. Although historically, there was somebody at Woodstock School in the '30s who looked at his students and did a PhD. But nobody knew when he'd be the probably third culture kids. But there was something that was evolving. Then Dave Pollock went to Kenya, and he was working in an international school. And he also saw the same thing. There was something different. And he picked up Dr. Lee Seams' term and said that she had said that third culture kids went to another culture with their parents. That's all she said. And he said, so it was been a significant time of their development of years. Because what he could see was the developmental process was different when people were chronically interrupting it, cross-culturally, and in the time of the time. And so a lot of times people say, oh, it's you're just blending the cultures. But it's not a blend. As he said, you can take pieces of each. I might like toodle me in somebody else, like Kim Chi, depending where they go. But the sense of belonging is with other people who share that experience. Because there's something that happens psychologically when you are only starting again and you're restarting your cultural learning, because every time you change, you're having to figure out different rules. So it's not the smooth thing that it would have been like for my mother who listened one house, one place in Chicago for life. So in our last edition, what started to happen about 20 some years ago, we were going around talking about the characteristics and about why this happens. All these people would come up to me and say, well, I didn't do it your way. It's not because my parents were overseas. All the first people that were studied had their parents were there for a career. But I relate to what you're talking about. Am I a teacher? Yeah. You're not. What is the story? Well, there was so much fuss about you, who couldn't, who couldn't be a T. F. K. But we couldn't look at the issue. So I decided when I talked to these people, there was always a cross-cultural component in their lives. Their parents had been from most of the countries. Well, maybe mixed race kids. They went to school on a different culture than when they went home. So I thought, well, we made a bigger term called cross-cultural kids than T. F. K. is part of that. And you can still put the other and let's see what happens. Yeah. So the definition for a T. C. K. Threat-Consha kit hasn't changed then since-- Well, I think we added something in our last book, which we probably didn't explain as fully as we should have. In order to look at this, everybody was starting to say, everybody's a T. C. K. But then the profile is based on the fact that you've had a cross-cultural lifestyle and high mobility. The cross-cultural kid is just saying you've had a cross-cultural experience growing up. And I felt like we needed to say why T. C. K. is that the first one studied what I called traditional T. C. K. is that gone because of their parents' career. So you can compare and contrast. Because refugee kids can have high mobility and cross-cultural. But they're not doing it because of their parents' career. It's a forced one. So if you look at those two stories, there's an enormous amount they share. But what are the distinctives? And so that was why I just say, OK, who did we first study? Who did we make this profile out? Now, some people are taking great exception to that. But that's not fair because you're trying to eliminate people. And I thought, no, I was trying to include people. So we could actually look at what's going on in the world. And what happens if you're an international adopter, you might have mobility one time. But it might not be high mobility. But you could have a cross-cultural experience. So my desire-- and my desire still-- is we have a world that is never mixed culturally the way it is now, and with the mobility that's happened. So we can look at the TCK, and we can see the basic essence of what happens when kids erase that way. Then if you add the other factors, because even kids who are traditional TCKs are often now with parents from different cultures, or their next race. And so I say it's TCK phase two. There's all this new complexity on top of the basic-- So we have the traditional TCK experience. We have the broader approach, maybe, of the CCK. And you pointed out that actually the number of TCKs and CCKs in the world is increasing. And they are more visible. And maybe their voices are louder as well. Thanks. So do you think, are there any monocultural experiences for kids these days? Well, pretty soon it's going to be pretty hard, because-- it's funny when I went and put the cross-cultural kid in the second edition. The editor said, but if you put it in, everybody, everybody will be included. You won't have any book to write. I said, well, that's kind of the point, is that back in 1984, the very first conference I went to on this Dr. Ted Ward from Michigan State said that actually this experience was going to be-- there was a prototype for the future. At the time, I thought he was saying, oh, we were just really special and good for us. And that's not what he was saying. What he was saying is exactly what's happened. That in time, everybody will grow up with some sort of-- And now, even people who don't move, I live in Indianapolis, India. And when I moved here 35 years ago, everybody was from here. I mean, you talked to somebody. And I'd never been in a more kind of want to cultural experience in my life. I was a little boring. But now, within one mile square, in the time there's 80 different languages. And the world has come to us. And we have a lot of refugees. So the school's here no longer monopultured or something. So that's why it's so important for us to understand what is the dynamic when kids are growing up this way. I think part of the cultural confusion in our world and the recent people are so at odds with each other is because people are-- the issue of identity has been coming very complex. Who am I when I've been so many? And so the only way for some people to decide who they are is to say, I'm not you. And instead of knowing who I am, it becomes a negative. I'm anything but you. And so I really think it's a hugely important topic for us to work with in today's world so we can hopefully have some better understanding of ourselves than each other. And some common characteristics for the TCKs, something that connects them on all of them in the journey from the people who grew up in different cultures. Any common bond-- I mean, there is a special bond. You mentioned in the book, right? So can you share a little bit more on that? I think when you go to a meeting with fellow TCKs, you don't have to explain yourself. Because when you get to that meeting and somebody says, hi, where are you from? And then everybody laughs. Because everybody knows that this is still a question. Because it doesn't-- it means what do you mean? We've all had to try and answer that question our lives. And you think long version to our version. We all kind of make up our answer. People ask me, no, where are you from? I just say, under the enapolis, that's fine. So just right off the bat, we all know without explanation that there's that thing. When we talk about loving the country that we grew up in, then whatever those little things are, everybody knows that. But I think also, real I see you maybe don't think by other people, thank you, think that when people look at you, they assume something about you that isn't true if they would look deeper. And so I think that's one of the things. But I think also the issue of there's sort of so many of our characteristics are both the benefit and the challenge. We know scads of people. But you can't keep up with them all. Or we've learned to just cut when we leave. We're not very good always keeping up our relationships, because not only too many, but it's kind of painful when you can't be this. So I think we have a different worldview. You just mentioned relationship building. On your perspective, do you think that TCKs specifically surround themselves with like-minded individuals, such as other TCKs, because they share this multicultural experience. And they can, of course, relate. Yeah. To the benefits and challenges as well, a few more comfortable as well. Yeah. So I think that it even happens intuitively. When I think about my eighth grade experience, when I said I was so uncomfortable, there was one girl that came from Germany back then. And she didn't speak too much English. She was my one friend. And I didn't understand it at the time. But she was looking for a friend. I was looking for a--
friend and we were both kind of the outsiders. But we also both knew about another world. So I think it's not just other TCK's particularly, but maybe other international people who have had a little larger world view. At the same time, let me say that in understanding my own story, I realized that I don't always understand the story of the people that live in Indianapolis, and it's my job to understand their story, to learn their story just as much as sometimes TCK feel like nobody's interested in me and blah, blah, blah. They can feel very sad about it, but I think I don't know their story either. I don't know when somebody says I grew up in a farm. I have no comprehension, but I'm sure if she talks to somebody who grew up in a farm and they all had milked the cows in four of them or they'd understand each other. So it's not that my story is better, but it's just when I'm talking to somebody who understands intuitively my story. Then you do feel that connection because like anybody else, you know, because you don't have to explain the whole thing because some things are actually explainable. They were, you felt them. So I think a lot of kids when they go off and they go back to university, they find international people, they find other TCKs. Yeah, yeah. Ruth, I have a question about navigating loss and grief because you mentioned it earlier as well. It's, let's talk a little bit more about that, navigating loss and unresolved grief. Like how can TCKs and their families recognize and cope with the losses associated with a cross-cultural lifestyle? That's like the main challenge, right? To overcome, how can we help our kids so the grief can move or be resolved? Well, I think that's a super important question because this is the thing that when somebody's 30 and 40 and 50, they're still living with it like I was without knowing. So I think first recognizing what are symptoms of grief, which are anger. A lot of times there's an anger, you know, we're going to move in the kid, you know, and the parents treat the anger, but they don't look at why. And then there's denial, you know, like it's no big deal, but it can be a big deal. But yeah, I don't care, I've done this a million times. Then, you know, that can also move, of course, to depression. And so parents are seeing these symptoms, particularly when maybe they repatriate or they move some place that the kid can be like, I was the, I seem to be doing fine because I became a chameleon or some kids are very acting out or they just would straw. So when you see these kinds of symptoms, pay attention because an awful lot of times people just want to scold them. But what I realized from my story was the reason I couldn't deal with my grief was I had no idea what it was. So when I call the hidden losses, until I was, during late 39, I didn't realize my world died the day after my airplane drive. And so here I was at 39 and suddenly I'm realize I'm writing about leaving Nigeria and it's just overwhelming that my whole world had died that day. But we never had a funeral. So I lost my trees, that I loved, I lost my friends, I lost my market, I lost my bike and how I did my life. And I got back to the States and the trees were too big to climb. You know, we didn't have bicycles to ride safely. And so there were so many things that I had never understood I lost. So the first thing that I asked kids or people is what's ahead in life you had something you didn't expect. And one TCK said to me, "Our dishes," I said, "you're wet." This is when we unpacked. "Our dishes weren't there." And I said, "Where are our dishes?" She says, "Oh, they were chipped. I just threw them away and looked at some new ones." And he just started crying. "Yeah, little things." He said, "Because that was the one thing that connected me to my friends." They all ate off those dishes with me. And so I think, when parents do that, but it's also why it's so important to do a good goodbye that we talk about the RAF for you. You consciously say goodbye. We affirm and you say farewell and you ask your kids, maybe what are some of the things they'd like to take? But making sure you process the goodbye, because that's really the fuel. And then you can think destination, you can think ahead, but an awful lot of times people try to think ahead before they've really let the K-process the loss. And that's why I also say that comfort is so important, because we encourage our kids, or just think about, and people encourage me to death, but nobody just ever was there to say, "It's okay to crack." "Yeah." "Okay to wish to bomb me." So maybe that's changed. And then so that's, we need permission to grieve. We need time to grieve. And sometimes we want to rush each other through it. And if people in the family take different times. So when people are in the middle, you know, we need to comfort. Yes, we do need to encourage, but first acknowledging it. And then as we process it, you don't have to do it 20 years later. Yeah. You can do it now. Yeah. Yeah. So we talked about loss and grieve, but of course there's another side, or let's get to the positive part, maybe, of being a growing up as a third-culture kid. It's a gift. I mean, it's a really rich and complex, as well. A lot of blessings as well. So what do you think are really the benefits? Well, I think the whole reason for dealing with the challenges is so we can use benefits. And we can build with that because they are many. That sense of, for me, the fact that my friends were from many cultures and many races just right off the bat in my life was a tremendous gift because I knew people as people who bought, well, they all wanted to win at soccer like me, you know, and I mean, we were people first together. And we were friends and we could eat different foods. So that to me is the greatest gift that I know is that I love learning about other people and cultures and even food and things. So, you know, for me, I would consider that one of my biggest gifts is just the joy of knowing people and learning firsthand from them about their countries, about their stories. I don't have to read it in a book. That's a great benefit for me. I think it's also maybe not a fear to explore. We believe that even if you kind of don't know exactly what you're doing, you'll figure it out. And I think you can think outside the box a little bit and it just makes life interesting. I think that for many having multiple languages, I spoke how I said, "Child, I didn't have maintained it." But in today's world, the capacity to be multilingual is huge. And I was at some conference, somebody with HR or some big company, he said, "If somebody doesn't speak at least two languages, we don't even look at their application." And I thought, "Wow." Because even if they don't speak that exact language where they might send them, at least this person has a capacity to be multilingual. So I think that all of these things, there's so many people that are creative, the person who got rid of us having a sign for Mastercard or Vista cards for the first $25 was a TCK. And he said, "That's just foolishness. We shouldn't have to sign for that much." I mean, waste time and all that kind of thing. So I think people who grown up in different cultures feel like they can negotiate. And a lot of the news reporters are TCKs who understand the nuances behind the story. And when they report, they're not just reading off a script. They can have discussion about all the dynamics that are behind it. So I have met very few TCKs who would ever change their lives. But the problem is, if you don't deal with the challenges, then you wind up stuck a bit. But the gifts are great and many. And I wouldn't change my life. The instant I feel I'm in this international community, or I'm at the school, and I'm with this hope of people that have lived this. I'm at home. Even if I don't know the people, I'm at home because we know each other. And I remember Keg and Dave Fowell used to call us, "A reunion of strangers" when they had these gatherings. Yes.
or strangers, but we're not. It feels like we're union. Yeah. So actually, isn't that the term you use as adult TCK, correct? Yes. So that would be actually how it's used in the nature as an A-T-C-K. Good job. Good job. Well, and I also want to say one thing that when you understand the story, you can watch some of these things developing in your children early on, but a lot of parents think, "Oh, it doesn't. My kids are fine." Because in the early years, their identity is with the family and things like that. But it's as they grow the questions of identity, because everybody has to figure out who they are. But we learn our identity from our environment, from our family, from the world around us. So when it keeps changing, then you have to figure out which one am I? But that's also why it's so important for parents to have a strong family traditions. What are the things that we keep studying no matter where we go? Because for a lot of kids, when you say, "Where are you belong?" Well, it's in relationships, wherever my family is. Where are you from? Well, wherever my parents are living now. And so that is a really prime relational thing that parents need to understand how important it is to develop that little world inside the world that you can move with you no matter where you go. Because that kid's development. their own celebrations, identity, and yeah. In your recent or in the latest edition of your book, you added this chapter specifically for parents, right? So you added it, you extended it. What's your piece of advice? I mean, you mentioned already that parents really have to observe and listen attentively because grief and loss might be different symptoms, right? So it's not easy to detect for parents even if they care. What's your piece of advice for parents, actually? What's the key strategy to support their kids in this journey? And maybe for our listeners as well, who are expect families who are about to move again, to transition again. So is there anything they can do just to support them? The first thing is don't ever forget that the K is for kids. So we can talk about somebody being their culture kid, we forget their first kid. So they need the same thing. Every kid needs to be loved, they need acceptance, they need nurture. I mean, don't ever forget that. Then of course, because of that, saying goodbye well, if you're going to transition, the parent also needs to understand the process of transition. And what's needed to support them because the parents also need, the parents are going through it. So if they don't take care of their own selves going through it, they're going to be going through their lost grief and you can take that out on your kids and be mad at your kids if you're something. So it's important for parents to understand. When you get to the new place, sometimes the kids need an advocate. I've had a lot of parents tell me things, you know, their teachers, kids, teachers and call them and say, "Oh, your kid has a problem with why?" "Oh, what do you mean?" Well, he keeps talking about going up and down the Amazon with his father, hunting variculous or something. And the mom says, "Well, he did." Well, the teacher doesn't understand that child's story. So sometimes particularly also, it's a different even in educational styles that kids are going between schools to help the school understand. Okay, my kid, you know, they're going to learn, but they weren't a different system or they were overseas. And so they're really not lying, but you know, there are things like that. Even to help the kids with some practical things, we got to an airport in Morocco on our way home from February one time. And I was starting up to train the escalators. And my kids are down the bottom, but I thought, "Why aren't you getting out?" And I thought, "Oh, they don't know escalators." Because we haven't had any escalators. So we practice escalators in that airport. So, okay, we're going to get you culturally conversant. And so I think sometimes parents just need to realize, "Oh, my kids might not have the same experiences." But I think the other thing is, as a kid is growing, helping them to understand they can be the many. There are many places that I feel at home now. I don't think I just have to choose one. And I sort of have an African self, and I have the American self and have an international self. And it's all me. I don't have to divide me up. Like, maybe if we do things in an old-fashioned way of which culture are you or which identity are all those things, then the kid is forced to choose. One problem parents can have is when the child is not culturally like them, they can feel angry. We might wait a minute. This is who I am. But also, I would say extremely important, if your home language is not English in the kids of going to school in an English environment or whatever it is, to maintain your original language because they've got to be able to speak to their parents, and sometimes in the name of a simulation. Parents let that go, but there's a lot of great resources. But a little darker has got it great. But I cast a multi-lingualist. And so that is hugely important, if your multi-lingual family that they maintain the language they can. Yeah, definitely. I mean, that is huge. And sometimes that's one thing I hear from the adult T.C. cases. I really can't talk to my grandparents. Oh my cousins. Because we never maintained the language. And the problem is the kid often resists learning it because their other friends don't speak that language. And so, you know, or they haven't developed it so that they can do it academically and go back to their country. Those are the things I think parents can be aware, probably on, so that you don't get to be 20, 25 and you say, "Oh, we should have been deep in the language. We should have been saying goodbye." The thing my father said to me, who was a T.C. can't even know it. I'm pack your bag, playing your trees. No matter where you move. He said, "So many people who move never settle internally." He said it. And he said, "You may move again, but you're going to lose your whole life because you keep waiting to move." So when you get someplace on pack your bag, mentally and physically, put your pictures up and plant your trees. He said, "Because you might not be there when the fruit comes, but somebody will be." So don't be afraid to plant the trees. And so when I went back to Liberia and I saw my dad's trees and I thought he's right. They're big now. That's very nice. That's very nice. And for our audience, Ruth, anyone who wants to get in contact with you, want to know more about you, what is the best way? Is it on your website? Well, I have a website cross-culturalkid.org, but I don't keep it up as well as I should just write me an email,
[email protected]. I'm happy to try and answer a little break. We were talking before about how much bad email comes in, you know, clouds are good email. But I do of all the things I love to do. I love to talk to people and write to people one-on-one because that's where the rubber meets the road and every single person, every single family, every single child is important and has value. And so we have our general story, but we each story is specific as well. So I'm very happy to interact with people and I love to do that. Thank you so much, Ruth. It was such a pleasure having you and listening to your stories and your wisdom and experience as a knowledge. So thank you so much for being our guest today. Thank you, Ruth. Thank you too and and may all of those you and your families and those rubber listening have as much joy in the journey as I got.
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