# 178 | Gaan Rowan en Jan weg bij DEGIRO? Broker special

Yes, welcome to a new episode again after the end of 2023, and today we are going to go into a quite special episode, namely the broker landscape. Because that's something that a lot of questions come in via e-mail, via Instagram, I am well aware of my broker, how safe my broker is, which is the best, I want to explore that together with Jan for you. Jan, nice to meet you again. Yes, it's December 8, Rohan, I hope you will be able to make it by the end of the year, because I think you are snipping away. And you are pretending to be a good boy. Yes, I can't laugh at that either, so if you don't want to make too many jokes this time around, then listen to it from the bottom of your heart, because then I just have to cough. Yes, that's what we are going to talk about today, but what we want to do today is make an episode about brokers, and actually it is an invitation for us towards the broker to just look at the broker where the broker is located. This is absolutely not an advice, we are not a broker expert, we do not have all the platforms that we are going to discuss in person. But we made a very deep dive last month about Interactive Brokers, a very big broker in the USA and also active in the Netherlands. And for us that was actually the instruction to also look at how the landscape looks, what the cost of bringing brokers into account and spoiler alert, it is often increased costs. Roan and I are both at the Giro and I am also part of AB&AMRO, and yes, that's how it stays, I think that we have to make that balance at the end of the whole overview, Roan. And yes, I think that we have to look at the landscape and see which parties we have to compare with each other, but before that time, just stand still at the earning model of the broker. Yes, because I think that is important, because the costs of a broker are very important in your management. It is a very important element, you can all make the sums, it goes quickly when you are 30-40 years old, at a certain amount, to cost a ton, and then it is the case to look at the costs and how that is earned. A broker can earn money in four ways. One, that is the obvious one, commissions, transactions, in that way. The second one, what is the example, the Giro, transaction, 2 euros, for example, that is the one way. Correct, correct, I said that very clearly, right? Yes. At the same time, I say it clearly, you can also turn it into a good one, because the Giro has nice tricks with it, we will get to that later. Another way is to sell it through your orders. In the English Factor Miss Payment for Order Flow, a company like Flow Traders, that is the business model. They actually buy orders from brokers, who sell their orders from private investors, but also professional investors, to the highest bidder. So the clusters, if it were, the orders of a large group, a large group of small orders, and there, such a party takes up a small margin. And if you do that with very large amounts, you earn a good amount of money. Yes, because it actually looks like Flow Traders, with much faster IT systems, when I buy a share of ASML. And they see that orders arrive at me, of course I do it in a second, within a second, what it feels like. But that is a very low IT system, and they want to get as close to the IT systems as possible. So they are actually sitting there on a chair, with a cocktail in their hands, and they see my order arrive at the Amsterdam side. And they think, hey, I see that order arrive. But next to that is a seller in Den Bosch, who wants to sell ASML. Hey, so it is also clear, look at the right with a cocktail, there also comes an order. Those two orders, the buy order and the sell order, they see them arrive and they think, hey, there we can, that spread, there we can get something out of it. So in a flits, because the word flits is also there, because they just do that transaction in one go. So there they take it every time, what is it, a few cents in between, but if you do that billions of times, then that is a very extreme winning sector. And you can already imagine a bit here, who finally pays that. Yes, not to break. No, no, no. And this is a very large profit model for a broker like Robin Hood. For other, yes, actually everyone who has cheap transactions, yes, they have to earn it in a different way, and then a very large part comes, payment for order flow. And yes, I think there is a very big long conflict between the broker, the profit model and you, the seller. Yes, so we have the payment for order flow, we have the fixed transaction costs of the four. Yes, number three. Number three, the loan of your shares. So the shares that you have there at the Giro, they can loan that, for example, to a party that wants to go short. Well, that short, it just has to pay a commission for payment or a rental agreement. And in that way you can earn the broken money. Yes, so you used to be able to borrow that at the Giro, if you have an account, then it doesn't happen. But that account is not currently open for me, so yes, all your shares can be borrowed. Yes, and I think it's strong that the Giro just now has the standard option. You don't get a message from some brokers, they still want you to agree that you will be borrowed. With some brokers they also say, hey, dear customer, do you want to borrow your shares, then you share for example 50% with them. And in that way you can borrow them together. Yes, number four, the rental agreement. This is, yes, if you, all the cash that is at the broker, they actually close it through to the central banks. And they are now getting, what is it, 3, 4, 5% depending on which central bank the money is. Yes, and we are actually focusing now on the first one, because those commissions are just very clear. There is a clearly communicated break, it is also clear what your cost is. Because that is transparent, you can just look at the tariff page of the broker. And yes, those other three categories are a bit more difficult to determine what, how you pay for it. Yes, but it is like that, if there are two brokers with the same costs, even if you have completely checked the tariff costs, the same costs. Yes, then the one who buys your orders, probably not the best broker for you. No, no. No, I agree with that. So in that way, and of course we also have some qualitative things that we want to take with us in comparison. Because not every broker is just popular among the various viewpoints. So that is also good if there is something in your hand that we can just name it. And yes, that can actually make the tariff way of feeling. Because it is of course also a part of trust and feeling at a broker, besides the costs, because it is an important component. But we have also spoken to listeners who are aware, some choose to be aware not to sit at the buyers, because they have a safe feeling about it. So that is also just important. Gigant is important. And yes, Jan, if you are going to Google and so on, brokers and in a conversation with authorities, such as the authority financial markets. And yes, you are completely shameless and I always think a bit, I say that in the financial industry, a lot of charlatans come down because they earn a lot of money. Yes, then the broken landscape. Yes, then you will be a bit confused about that. One, for example, from TradeRepublic, who now scams with savings of 4%. And then you can also freely trade commission-free. Yes, and then if a CEO does not give an interview that they sell the orders. And if a journalist then asks, do you think that is ethical to sell orders to customers? And then he also says, yes, here I do not give a comment on it, as if a kind of lawyer has put it in. Yes, and then somewhere on the website does it. I may have to read it a bit, because then I am at least from this trauma. The last four years, oh yes, it is on the website. Why are the costs so low at TradeRepublic? Of course, a very suggestive, how is this possible? People think, oh yes, then I do want to know, it is logical. The last four years we have built up strong digital financial institutions with the help of modern technology. Such as many other brokers. Like, yes, we are not doing this alone, we are not doing this alone, everyone does this. That is not possible. We receive profit from trade partners. That is why we can freely use our efficient structures of high commissions for orders. Through our efficient structures of high commissions for orders. Has JetGPT written this? I do not know if JetGPT is so smart. This is really, this is really, with a lot of lawyers and market, it is over and over again. But yes, actually you sell the orders and get a consumer, a customer does not get the best price. And yes, you get low commissions, so actually that's right, but it is not fair. No. And the price is the same. That's right, that's right. Yes, I still want to say something, but that is my disappointment, that will come again soon. Oh yes, what I think is good is to say, because if you Google on Trade with Public or on other brokers, then you also regularly come to different influencers who advise a broker, who say go to the Giro, go to this, go to that. It fits very well with it. Because I am now going to declare 12 people for the food, for the food. But it is not totally objective. And if you look at the link that is included, there is just a referral link behind it. So that person is not important, he just gets paid for it. So we don't have any relationship with which broker, but also with Robert and I. So yes, and we are also not going to give advice, but if people do that, then it fits very well. Because there are few independent parties. Yes, even an IAX podcast is often sponsored by a broker. Yes, I think that nobody can freely talk about brokers. I think that is before us, and we often get emails from brokers who want to sponsor us. Well, we all have that. For example, when I gave a link for a Giro account, when I say that it is the best, and it was quite logical, I am at the Giro, I always thought it was the best broker. Yes, I get 60 euros per link, per open account. Yes, it's really serious money. I have given up tons, tons. Yes, yes, yes, that is ... And now I am here without the gas stove because the energy account cannot be paid. But ... Cool, thick, wild trail. I think this episode will also be on YouTube, so you can see it all. That's right. I drew a cheeky jacket because it is purely from poverty, because it is also broken at 40 degrees here. That's no joke, by the way. Hey, let's go to the brokers, let's do the comparisons. Yes. And just start with the Giro, because ... No, start with how we have put up the comparison. We have gone from a reliable amount of 50,000 euros. For some people they will think that I will not say anything else for a long time. Yes, this is much less than I thought. But we thought, after 50,000 euros, let's just take that as a means. And we have gone out of the business. Only two transactions per year. A purchase of a Dutch share of 10,000 dollars and a purchase of an American share of 10,000 euros. And those shares cost 10 euros, then 10 dollars. And in our general overview, we have gone out that a dollar is equal to a euro. So if we calculate some brokers, then 5 dollars commission. Yes, we just made 5 euros of it. The fishing course is 1.07, but otherwise the overview would have become very complex. So if you think that this should be a euro or this should be a dollar. Yes, that can be right. We have drawn a comparison. But it makes no difference from the bottom of the line. The differences are too big that it can be an infinite influence. Yes. So just for someone who thinks he has to pay 5,000 euros. But instead of, for example, you do two transactions. But imagine that he does 20 transactions. On the basis of the year, that may be comparable. Not exactly, because there are fixed costs for a broker, there are variable costs. But it's not like that if you pay less than that per year. If we come out later, it will take a few hours to pay 50,000 euros. If you think you pay 5,000 euros, it doesn't matter. It depends on your personal situation, how much you pay. We actually go out in a scenario of a dead person who does two transactions per year. If you pay more, the costs will increase. At the end of the day, if you pay a lot more, this broker becomes more and more significant. If you are a smaller, beginning broker, choose this one. Because the fixed costs are very low here. So fixed costs don't matter if you pay 10 million euros. If the fixed costs are 50 euros per year. But if you pay 1,000 euros, 50 euros per year is much too much. In this case, at the Giro, it calculates 2.5 euros of fixed costs per person. We have to be careful that we don't go into too much detail. But at the Giro, let's just look at the price below. It did 30.50 euros to do this trade. I see that I have double fixed costs once. So 30.50 euros costs 50.000 euros with two transactions. I have to say that's more than enough. Otherwise 0.06% of your total negligible power. We have to say that if you are going to trade more, so if you do more transactions, the Giro earns a lot of value costs. So the turnover of euros to dollars and other value costs 0.25%. And that's a lot. You go a lot more if the orders get bigger. Yes, because in this example, the Dutch share that 10.000 euros costs 2 euros. Transaction costs, so pretty much nothing. And an American share cost 1.26 euros. Yes, that's a dollar. Exactly, and there's only 1 euro per dollar on fixed costs and the rest is pure currency. So you pay 25 euros for currency costs. And if you pay with a large amount, it doesn't get less. Yes, because this seems to be a lot less than 0.06% in total on year basis. I don't think this is representative of the middle class, which of course deals a lot more. But yes, it's difficult to change from broken and we don't want to do that at all. But just a transaction that you have to share. Yes, of course I have been at the Giro for years and I think every time I read about the misunderstandings at the Giro pot, what a scandal, why do they do that? But yes, I'm a bit locked in and then you go a bit, sometimes things, talk to people well, because you don't want to go through that paperwork and the extra costs of changing. But sometimes it's just smart to make a decision. Yes, we actually had a decision making on the last day to make a decision. Because if you would take that pain now, and now someone might discuss it with that 5,000 euro or 50,000 euro, but 50,000 euro is certainly a million over 30 years. And if you then calculate the value of that cost, if you have that million in American shares, and you then want to cash or you want to give it to your children or something like that, then you have to get that back first. There is no other way. And then you pay 0,25% over that million is 2,500 euro. 2,500 euro which you just have to pay for value costs. Yes, and the problem is that the Giro, we are standing here a bit longer, because we have seen that 80% of the members of your community are already at the Giro. But the Giro has also changed it. So it's not like they're handling a fixed percentage here and then let it go like this, or that there is a certain model behind it. For me, the last year or the year before, it has changed. And if you do it manually, you would think, oh, that's nice, you can also do it manually, then the Giro doesn't do it for you. But then it also costs 0,25% plus a little extra. So you would say, well, if you do it manually, then it will buy well. And you can also not give your own course if you are willing to pay dollars. Also not if you do it manually. So you are also dependent on the course that offers you the Giro. And you have a lot of insight into it. So I would think that you share a lot in Dutch. And then the Giro is really a very fine broker with two euro transaction costs. And are you a little bit smaller, but for the real professionals, are these just really no-go's? Yes, you don't want to do this. And yes, I don't think you might want to have an important conflict. And during our research, Jan also came across an EU article from this summer that the payment for order flow is already banned in the Netherlands. Well, the Giro has found a trick, such as in the FT article, to omit that. Namely, the Giro was bought by Flatex, the German bank. And in Europe, the law is now that order sale is not allowed. But every country is free to adapt to their own local law. So in Germany it is allowed. Yes, so that's why the Giro has, I think, very important reasons why the Giro has sold to Flatex a few years ago. Because the lucrative transfer model is no longer allowed in the Netherlands. And it can be allowed again after the transfer of Flatex. And I think this is a measure for, if you are with the Giro, that the costs in the future can still be improved. Because this summer the EU has decided to ban payment for order flow in whole Europe. And if I understand it correctly, this time it is also definitive that every member gets the same rules. So that the Giro can no longer do this, Trader Public no longer. And with all those good-selling internet brokers. And that means that they will not be able to get rid of those four transfer models. The most lucrative, the big cash cow, Robin Hood, has become a big member. So they will have to earn money in a different way. And so the commission will probably go up. Yes, even if you are maybe the only customer who is in the Netherlands, who does not have to deal with currency exchange costs, it can still be that the costs will also go up and that the Giro will just calculate fixed costs in the future. Because otherwise the chance is much greater that someone who offers that, payment for order flow, has to earn a different transfer model. So he has to increase the costs in the future in comparison to a broker who does not do that. Yes, but what is also the case with the Giro, then we are ready with the rent for us. If you want to take part in an AVA, an average transfer of shareholders, then that will cost a tenth in the Netherlands. So when I go to Albertville, then that will cost me a tenth, nice around the corner in Utrecht. But if I want to go to Berkshire, or to Melexis, or to another foreign company, then that will cost 100 euros per time. So that's pretty serious. And at Berkshire you can still leave, that you can show a print for "I have to share" and then you can take part in the hall, then you can not vote, but both are included. But with most shareholders, you really have to show that you have the pieces. And that costs 100 euros. It is not so much for a professional party, but it is something to keep in mind if you like to go to those exchanges. Because at ABN, for example, I always know that that is free. And will we take the three big banks together, the Dutch? Yes. Because the big banks, ABN, Rabo and ING, we have taken. They all count a fixed amount, or a percentage, over your liable capacity. That does not do the Giro and many other parties. And that difference at ING, which asks for example 5 euro per quarter plus 0.4 percent, you hold on to your liable capacity. 0.4 percent per year. So if you pay 50.000 euros, the fixed costs are 140 euros per year. ABN counts 0.2 percent, but it does not count 5 euro per quarter. So that is a bit cheaper. Rabo bank calculates 0.06 percent up to 100.000 euros, with a minimum of 5 euro. And as the amount is increased, the percentages will be lowered at some point. It is just like tax rate. Over the first ton, there is so much and ABN, it is really quickly bought. But that is something to keep in mind. And the purchase of the share is actually from the Dutch share, with all 10 or 11 euros. So that difference is not that much. And the purchase of an American share varies between the 36 and 57 euro commission. Whereby the value costs are really very low. ABN almost asks for 0.5 percent value costs. Really, really good. Rabo 0.25 percent, and you also give 0.25 percent. But if you put all that under the line, then it is a bit between the Rabo bank. It costs 0.16 percent of your available power costs, and ING 0.37 percent. So we can all jump high or low about box 3 tax, but if you are with this portfolio at ING, then you just cost 0.37 percent per year. With these two transactions per year? Yes, but at ING there is the over-sized share, and at other big banks there is also the annual fixed costs. Which of course will be less and will be larger. And which also does not increase to how much transactions you do. And I have to say, I am sitting at ABN, keep in mind that I am free. If you call, someone will pick up the phone. If you have a question, then they are available. What else do I want to say? Yes, they are transparent about the costs. So if you enter an order, then it is exactly determined how much the commission for an asset is, what value costs are, and what total costs are. And even as a percentage of your order values. I will say that again, but I really like that they are so transparent. Yes, you can really see that in big banks, that they are very clear about the costs you pay. Yes, and also in the Giro. It is quite difficult to see what your performance per year is, how good you have done it. They do not want you to know that, because it often happens. And ABN, I do not know how it is with Rabo IRG, but at ABN you really get a very nice dashboard, where you can see what has come into the dividend, what is the course rise, how much have you paid for us, and then a really beautiful overview comes out. So in this case you really pay a lot more, but you also get something more for return. And I think you do not sell the big banks and the big banks through the orders. No, I do not think so. And as the last one, you are at your Dutch big bank, so if something goes wrong they say too big too much. That is also a advantage. Yes, I can imagine that for someone who deals with millions, the small ones now, but maybe in the next 20-30 years he will also have a housing crisis after such a big bank because it is too big too much. Yes, on the other hand, those costs are quite serious. But if you do not deal with a lot and the biggest part is those fixed costs, and if you get bigger, then we take that percentage of the total, so then we will see something worse. But it is still, it is more expensive than the Giro. Yes, if you deal with a few times in an American share, for example at an ABN, you go to 1% costs per year, then it is just like spending your money on a long-term player or something. Yes, you can, at the big banks, and it can also be done with the Giro, that you suddenly open the dollar bill. At the big banks, that bill costs 5-6 euros per month. At the Giro it is free. And the advantage is that you then get American dividends in dollars, and then just enter your dollar bill. And then from that dollar bill you can put in new orders, and then you do not have that value tax again. Yes, this is maybe the tip we should give to the Giro, because 80% of our members, and I think there is also a part of our listeners, that you do have to put that value tax on hand, if you are planning, for example, to sell an American share, and then buy it back for R1. Because otherwise you pay if you automatically do the payment of value tax, twice 0.25%, so 0.5% of the amount. And if you put that on hand, then he just changes the dollar for dollars, and with the same dollar he buys that new American share in dollars, and then you don't have to pay any value tax. So that's how you sell that. And I think, at my bank club on Monday, a number of experienced bankers did not know that for a long time, and I think that's a very nice tip for the listeners. Yes, you can really push the costs a lot, because the biggest cost of the post is just that value tax. I never had the mail from the Giro, but they say that if you are smart, then you put that on hand value tax. No, you don't get it if you enter an order, you don't get the value tax. You just get it in the development of the email, and then when the order is completed, you think that you have paid that value tax, but you don't see that when you enter the order on the Apple or on the website. All these things already give me a uncomfortable feeling. There are more important opponents, what is important to you is that we don't see this, because otherwise you are going to ask questions about whether to adjust your behaviour, and that is not in the interest of the Giro. So that conflict or interest gives me a nice underbite feeling. Sometimes I get frustrated with your part, but two years ago the Giro increased the value tax from 0.1% to 0.25%. So it increased by 150%. So the email starts with lowering transaction costs. Yes, certain parts were indeed bought to trade, but then below the mail somewhere the value tax increased by 150%. So that's just the Giro profit model. We can think about that, and we would like to share that with you, but someone who just starts trading, he doesn't think about it, he just wants to buy something, and doesn't know that he is so much involved in the broker and that he is the big cash cow of the broker. That frustrates me a bit. I also said that people used to ask me, why do you stay so long at the Giro, and I felt like there was no fair break. And the big banks are fair, I think, but I just thought it was too high. Maybe something else will come up at the end of this podcast. I am happy that you live close to Germany, and no, I was allowed to go straight to one of us at the Giro. They will come first through you. Yes, I didn't understand. But you will get used to it. Which broker will we take out now? Maybe we have already stood still at Trade with Public, which is actually practically free, with a euro transaction cost for Dutch and also a euro for American shares. So you actually lose two euros a year there. But there you will be able to sell orders. I am sure that he is just as good as you earn, but that we just can't see it now without an account. We can't see how they deal with spreads, how they cost the exchange or how they convert currency. So yes, it depends on how close you are there. Certainly. So maybe that's about Trade with Public, right? Yes. If I see all those brokers here, then there will be new brokers in the Netherlands. Kelemel Capital is a new party that is big on the market again. I think that over a few years you will not see them all again. There will be a lot of consolidation in Europe, with brokers that are going to fuse. Because I think that it will not be able to keep up with the payment for order flow. And that you can ask the question, if you are going after such a new broker, whether it still exists over a few years, whether they are going to fuse all of them. Is there a broker in the Netherlands who has been active for 10-20 years already? No. One of those we will do, and then we will go to IBKR. Interactive Brokers is Saxo Bank. It was for him Bank. It is also not a very cheap broker, because he counts € 350 per month and also 0.01% of your portfolio value as fixed costs and 0.15% of the order value as transaction costs for the purchase of an order with still 0.9 basis value points. That is 0.009%. So that's not going to happen again. But below the line you also have 0.27% of your power lost per year of the € 50,000 that we had invested, or that we had available. So also not such a very cheap broker in that respect. As fixed costs are more expensive, and especially the Dutch part of € 10,000 is just € 15 at Saxo, which is 2 at the Giro. Yes, it surprises me that one time we did that, that only 5% are in Saxo Bank. I thought to listen to the complaints when the shopkeepers were transferred to Saxo, that there were still a lot of investors there. But that seems to be a small part. Yes, there is also something about the finger-tipped Saxo that the owners keep. That there were not the controllers either. There is also something to keep an eye on. Let's go to Interactive Brokers, the big party from the US. In 1984 there was not a very deep dive story, but actually a very IT-focused company. They did not have fixed costs. The purchase of the Dutch share was 0.05% of the original value, with a minimum of € 1.25. In America it is 0.00035 US dollar per share. If you buy a Berkshire A share, you won't be able to buy that much, because they are 0.540 US dollar per share. They ask 0.2 basis points for the valuta conversion. That comes down to 0.002% with € 2 as minimum. If we put that all together, then IBCR Interactive Brokers costs € 10.5 per share. 0.02% of your total portfolio. And with that, as a trade with public, it earns the most money in other ways. And IBCR does not sell your orders. It is an extremely profitable broker, but that is because they do a lot for hedge funds and other big, institutional parties. And they don't really focus on the smaller retail investors. But they just support them, but they don't actually advertise. No, I do get advertisers from IBCR, since I opened a account to look around for the deep dive. But they also focus on particular investors. In the Netherlands, I do have quite a few right-wing investors, but they just say that they don't have a share in their services. They are not going to pay all their influencers to make a profit in that way. And they have a lot of growth there. But they mainly have programmers in their services who want to make their systems as efficient as possible. And that is why they can operate at low prices. And that is what they give to the customers. And in the meantime, they make a lot of profit. And they don't sell them. Not in the standard case, your order flow through. No, not in the Netherlands at all. But if you live in the US and you have a light subscription, then everything is free, but then you sell your orders through. And there was also a question from one of the listeners, what is being earned on the payment for order flow? So that free account at IBCR, that is just as profitable for them as the paid account, in which we pay for the transactions. So let me show you that the payment for order flow is just as profitable as the payment for commissions. Yes, that's funny. They actually made those two variants, the extra variant, to show that if it is all free, then you are the product. Yes, because IBCR, Interactive Brokers, is one of the most profitable. And also, I think, the cheapest in the US. And also, I think, with us. So it is very good for them to show that we can do this in this way, but then you are the product. So they want to, I think, that Interactive Brokers loves that it is forbidden, because then it is really clear who has the best I.T. and offers the cheapest products. Yes. And on the left also makes use, and Maxim also makes use of the Interactive Brokers platform. That does Interactive Brokers very smart. That is also called partner. Introducing Brokers. Introducing Brokers. So on the left, you pay five euros a month for fixed costs. Minus your transaction costs, I have to say. So on the left, you pay a little more, but then you have the functionality of the Interactive Brokers platform, which is very high, but also Dutch customer service. And you pay a little more. Yes. But it can be the difficult thing, because the Interactive Brokers platform is really aimed at the professional, or more advanced investors, and with all kinds of beautiful reports that you can download, you can select benchmarks, how do I do it in terms of the S&P, you get the craziest dashboards you can configure, all free, but if you start with investors, it can be a bit overwhelming. Yes, if you start with investors and you doubt it a bit, then I wouldn't suggest that you go first to IBKR, because then you might be disappointed by what you can do with it. And that would be great. Then you can start with investing, and then pay a little higher costs. Yes, I have recently received a calculation with my little fund at IBKR, and it is also nice to see that if you want to give someone the book holder access, then I can make a profile for him and say to him, I want to have this right, he has to be able to turn reports, and a few more things, but I can't do transactions. Well, click the click and he has access. That would be our Dutch big bank, minimum... Two years? Yes, that will be settled quickly, but then there is a lot of human handling. If it fits, you can't just click on each other. No, you can't do this at all, because the Giro has wiped out all business clients, they had to leave. Yes, because there are too many rules, and IBKR does want that, and I think you may also attract the right client. But that's something more for IBKR to buy shares. That's another story. That's another story. I have a full disclosure about it. About the IBKR. Let's see, then I think we had a big part of the brokers, where the IBKR is actually one of the parties that would keep us serious, because it is the cheapest, followed by the Giro and then the Dutch big bank, where you can spend the last place. And Trade with Public is a bit on the outside, which is good to buy, but we don't know exactly how that will go on for the big investors, where the party will continue to earn money, as it was before. But if you start investing very little, and you start with €2,000, then where would you have to be? And I think that when you start with €2,000, and you are part of the Dutch side, that's the Giro best, because that's €2 transaction cost per share. Yes, look, if you have €1,000 per transaction, sorry. Okay, no problem. If you have €1,000 per transaction, then I would probably do that with a Giro, or there's no such thing as Trade with Public, or one with extremely low transaction costs, and then not so much trading. But yes, almost no one has €1,000 per share, that's what I mean by investing. Everyone invests to be able to earn money in a few years, or whatever, then you are going to invest monthly money. Yes. And then it quickly becomes lucrative to maybe change. Well, everyone has to change for themselves, but also make some money. Maybe we can share your screen in the telegram group, or maybe just once in the letter that I send for two weeks. With that cost and overview, then they can consider it a bit faster and something for someone themselves. And I don't know how else we can do that. Yes, and changing is, that can actually be done in two ways. We are going to explain the particular things, because the things that I explain when I sell those shares, then I have to make financial taxes with that. So we are not going to do that. A particular can just sell their own shares. Well, that can be quite attractive if it is a share that has already been noted in euros. But if you have a share for €200,000, a share in dollars with the Giro, and you want to transfer that to another broker, then you have to put it back to euros first. So at all that 0,25% lost, which is quite attractive. And what you can also do, is to make use of the functionality to migrate a position. So then you can break from one to another. And the costs vary a bit between the €20,000 and €100 per share, per line item. Yes. The Giro costs €20,000, but plus the costs of the burst. So if you, in America, lose €68,000 for me, then you lose €88,000 if you want to transfer an American share. Yes, so in most cases, if you pay taxes with small amounts, then it is better to buy your portfolio further and buy it again. Yes. And just about those small taxes with €2,000, if we have some larger taxes with €200,000, then I think that actually Interactive brokers from that amount will be really far out for the best buyers. Yes. Yes. But also really far out. Yes. And what you can also do, of course, as a switch from broker, is not to sell or migrate everything, but just, if you sell something to your broker, for example the Giro, that you just don't buy anything new at the Giro, but you just make that cash after your other broker account, and then you buy something new there, then you don't have double transaction costs, because you buy the one and the same and you buy it back at the other broker. Yes. Keep in mind that with certain brokers you have a fixed cost per quarter or per month. At some point, if you only have one position that is not that big, and you pay €5 or €3 per month, then it will be wasted. Yes. Let's see, we also had some questions, I think a number, most of the questions were about safety. Which broker is the safest? Yes, we can judge that. I think it's funny, someone said, what should happen to the Giro so that you definitely lose your money? Then of course it was the first reaction of sharing just e-take a week open. But good, I thought it was funny. But everybody thinks it's funny, by the way. No, not for many people. Sorry, not for you. The humor was just funny, how it came about. Because everybody felt that someone would make that remark. But if we really mean that, the underlying question is of course, and this really plays a lot of people, you are 30 years old and you have to go through something wrong with your broker, and a broker can go bankrupt. It's just a commercial company, they can do stupid things, they can fraud. If you lose your money, for example, and then you have two things in your pocket on that account, and the shares you have there. Yes, and I really think, we talked about it before, it's quite difficult to judge. Because it depends on a lot of things, together that you can't, that you can't see particularly. It depends on how good the IT infrastructure is, what happens if there is a hedge, how good the backup systems are, how good the records are in the background, of who has which share. Because shares are in most cases not on your name, they are on the name of the giro, and they have already been applied to you. You also see that when you vote, then the giro actually has to vote on you. Instead of you automatically being able to share that on your name, as it used to be. You are really dependent on that it is all good together. And we also talked about the deep dive into interactive brokers. And the fact that there are really big hedge funds and institutional investors gave us comfort, because they also want to give their clients an assurance that it is safe. And probably also all kinds of IT, penetration tests and such things on the infrastructure of IBCR. I do not have the means to ask that, I am going to do it for you, the best giro or ABN. So that could be a sign, but it remains very difficult for us to say anything about it. Yes, it is so difficult, because after those factors that you call, it is also dependent on the risk management of your broker, a broker. With your broker, for example, you can often borrow money to deal with it. Well, how good does a broker do that? And how good are the risks? It determines that if an investor is going to trade in all sorts of options and futures and other things, and it is very negative. Are those risk management systems so good that the broker does not lose so much, in case oil prices become negative during corona? Yes, how good is that? And you can, that the giro has, I think, borrowed something from 3-4 million on its own capacity of around 600 million. Yes, if there is something wrong, then your own capacity is gone, and then you may be technically bankrupt. Well, yes. And the giro has already taken care of everything. In 2021 it has taken care of 2 million for the incorrect report of unuseful transactions. Yes, and that does the IFM not so quickly know from reliable sources. So that is, yes, it has already gone wrong, to put it like that. Yes, but Jan, the question that may live with people is that cash money that is included, if we zoom in on that. That is with a giro that falls under the deposit guarantee system, although heavy from the German government, the European deposit guarantee system. So I think we can say that cash money is very safe there? Yes, you can imagine that. Yes, yes, it is of course not the same as the Dutch deposit guarantee system, where you then have your money within, I think, 10 working days back, if something goes wrong. But that I think that is reasonable, also with other parties who have just put the money at a bank, that is always in order. And the same money, I think, at Interactive Brokers, there are European, for me, JP Morgan somewhere, but then in Europe. Yes, and if you have the money at the giro, I don't think that many tons of cash will be there, because you won't get any rent at the giro. So that's just not completely logical, if you leave a lot of cash there, so you can then put it safely at a big bank, because at a big bank of course it is the safest, I think. But in any case I think it's good, if you are at a broker, to check if the deposit guarantee system is actually missing, purely for your cash share. And if the rent is given? Yes. At ebkr you get above 10,000 euros, rents below that, and at Trade with Public you get 4% rent, that is also the worst thing, of course, people wanting to hang inside. At the Dutch big bank, you get the same percentage on your savings account, so something, but not too much. Yes. And if we're going to talk about the shares, because this is the question that lives with people, people know, yes, my broker has the duty to keep the shares not the same, but in a private company. And yes, I always came not further from the German bank, or the German bank, or the German version of the monetary account holder, he controls that. And I have to trust that they do the job well. Well, they missed it at Wirecard, but in general, what do I have to do with it? For me, this is a black box, I have to be able to trust it, for my feeling. Yes, well, to be honest, I have no idea, except that you can look, as a company for the rest and management has something very integral, which has already been there for a long time. At IBCR they are now more than 30 years, for example. And that they operate for the rest where in fact everything is right and that everything is in line with what they say and how they earn money, then give me something to trust that maintenance company or those maintenance calculations that he also controls them well, whether it is right or not. And when I look at the Giro, that there are regular role models, CEO leaves, there are scandals, then I think, well, if this is not all right, if this is not all going well, then how good is that direction? Yes, that is his confusion, but we do not actually know this. At least I speak for myself. No, because we do not know, we cannot actually want to send an advocate to check if it really is a split entity, so that the Giro may go bankrupt, that this is not my part, not in the bubble of the Giro, but for the curator. Yes, yes, yes. Yes. I have not yet said that if you think about the ETFs, that there are also quite a few brokers who do not have a few ETFs who are free, they are in a core selection, so if you think about the ETFs, can it be very different than what we have said so far? It was really about solving issues. Correct. Because at the end of the podcast you think about the ETF, that is what I am hearing now. Sorry about that. Yes, yes, yes. Well, I think there are quite a few, right? Yes, I am looking through those questions, but I think we have covered them now. We just had to ask our questions, what are we going to do? Oh yes. We would have been open to that. Yes, may I give it to you? Yes, I will give it to you. Okay, go ahead. If there is a kind of separation announcement or something, I will go away with the Giro. And I do that in a way as I can just suggest. I buy a new position at Interactive Brokers. Yes. For me, money is actually the same. That I don't have the presence of Interactive Brokers, so I don't have an important conflict. Do I still hear that word? No, I have an important conflict. So don't listen to me, but I am also going to do the same strategy as Roan. But I do find it interesting that you have some positions in two places. Then I have to deal with that. So that actually, yes. Take the pain, Jan, and then liquidate it. Yes, that is possible. What I like about Interactive Brokers is that I have just opened an account at Interactive Brokers to see how they do the year-end or how they calculate the dividend. So I will wait until January 1 until that comes to an end. And then it will still fall. And then it can be over. Yes. In my case, I am probably still 5 or 10 years old at the Giro. Yes, it will fall again. One of those last few positions that will still fall. But the disadvantage is that you lose your purchase rate. So then, that does not migrate with you. So then you have to keep up with a schedule administration. I have bought those shares before. Yes. That is fine to do. That is fine to do, but it is good to know. Okay. As the director of the Giro. Sorry. I think that I have been quite low-cost for years. Because I have always been at the Giro. Because that is the lowest cost for me compared to last year. And there is now an alternative. You do not have to say that you like it. He says, "Thank you that you have paid for me for years that you like it." Maybe he just likes it. Yes. Where the Giro is still. If you buy Dutch shares, you will just break the purchase rate. Yes. And then there are so many people with it. I do not think that everyone is going to change that mess. We do not want to give any advice there. You have to eat them yourself. You can calculate it for yourself. In this podcast, we have our considerations with you want to share so that you can make an informed decision or maybe just no decision. Yes. And I hope that you have it. And if there are any questions, do you know what we both want to find? Do you know what you're saying now? Yes. I'm sending all the emails to you. All right. Thanks for listening. Until next time. A very nice book, "Morgenhausen". Maybe a book "Psychology of Money". If you want to know what we want to hear, we are going to discuss that book. Not that book, but "Same as ever" is his second book. I have read a couple of chapters, but it is fantastic what it is about me. He thinks that we as investors have a lot to do with it. A lot of psychology. But what remains the same as an investor? In this stage of the day in my life. I really look forward to talking to you and sharing with you as a listener. It's a great book. See you. See you. [Music]