177 Dan Dicker: moving the dial on reusable cup systems

When we talk about circular economy, the word economy can put a lot of people off for straightening me, but for me it's the actual critical element to when we're designing a product. It's the fact that it is built around an economic structure that if you get right, is sustainable and works, it's not funded by anything else, it's not propped up by anything else. The whole point is if you get it right, it's more economic to use that model than a linear model. Hello and welcome to the circular economy podcast, where we discover why circular, regenerative, and fair solutions are better for people, planet and prosperity. This is about much more than circular materials. We need new systems and strategies and that means discarding our old mindsets and assumptions. I'm Catherine Wheatman and over the last decade I've been helping people imagine ways to design better solutions with smaller footprints. That means delivering deeper value with less resources, less pollution and less harm. I'll be interviewing the business leaders, entrepreneurs and disruptors who are rethinking how we design, make and use everything. They're creating a future where we can all thrive, a world that's healthy, resilient and regenerative. Welcome to episode 177 and we're catching up with Dan Dicker, the founder and CEO of Circular and Co, a Cornwall-based circular design brand on a mission to eliminate single use waste. We first heard from Dan back in episode 36 in 2020 when we discussed one of Circular and Co's early circular designs, the Circular Cup, a reusable cup made from waste single use coffee cups designed to last 10 years and then to be recycled back into a new cup. In 2025, they sold over 280,000 of these reusable coffee cups and they've calculated that these will displace over 700 million single use cups together with 350 tons of CO2. In this episode, Dan explains how Circular and Co's design skills are creating reuse and returnable cups systems and these are breaking the mold by not requiring an app or a deposit and they're achieving extremely high levels of reuse because they're super convenient for the cup users, for cafes and for the local community. Users have borrowed over 40,000 tap and reuse cups so far and the system is achieving very promising return rates up to 98% in a couple of sites. Dan explains how the systems work across a range of different scenarios including across a community, in stadiums, campuses and offices and even for training travel networks. We'll hear how Circular and Co use data to inform the location of drop-off and washing systems and to create systems that are highly efficient and convenient for both users and providers. We'll also discuss Circular and Co's thoughtfully designed reusable products made from waste materials such as recycled fabric, coffee waste and bubblegum. And Dan explains how they ensure these products are designed to protect our health and to ensure none of the contaminants in the recycled materials can migrate into what we're drinking. Let's head over to meet Dan Dicca and afterwards I'll share my takeaways. Dan, welcome back to the Circular Economy podcast. Yeah, it's true. It's been a while. Thank you, Catherine. Yeah, and I'm really looking forward to hearing what you've been up to over the last few years. I've seen lots of activity on LinkedIn so I'm keen to dig into some of the work that you've been doing around reuse systems. So we're going to start with the newest addition to the podcast, the Quickfire Questions and the rules are you can answer yes, no, maybe. And if none of those options really feel correct then you're allowed a short sentence. Does that sound okay? It sounds great. It's going to be hard though so I'll try it. Okay, I'm sure we'll have plenty of time to unpack the difficult ones later. So the first question, is it always going to be expensive to implement reuse systems for on-the-go food and drink? That's a definitely big no. Thank you. And when it comes to designing reuse systems for cups on the on-the-go food and things like that, to most organisations focus on the right things. I'd say no, first straight, and you know. Okay, thank you. Are there some common strategies that organisations can adopt to help reuse systems succeed and make them more cost-effective? Yes, there are. I'll keep my lips shut as much as I'd like to talk about. Okay, well hopefully we'll cover it all off later. And when it comes to the design of the cup or the bottle are all designs equal in terms of the environmental benefits? No, certainly not. Okay, great stuff. So since we last spoke back in 2020, circular and co-as launched a tap and reuse system, could you start by telling us a bit more about that? Yeah, certainly. So we've been in the sort of reusable world for a very long time. And we noticed that the dial hasn't really, for straightening, the dial's not shifted in the last sort of five, six years. It's still around 5% of all hot beverages, a drunk or served in a reusable. And it's sort of stayed around that area. So we've been conscious that we need to really move the dial, we need another solution. And we think that solution is a sort of borrowing model. So if people, you know, you have to recognise that not everyone's going to be reusable with them all the time. You know, life's just not like that all the time. So what else can we do to make it easy and convenient? So I think with the fair, the fair bones of tap and reuse is about an alternative that is equal to almost just as convenient as single use. Otherwise, we're never really going to move the dial, we're never really going to scale. So that was our sort of design brief as such. So with that in mind, we've come up with a system where you effectively borrow a cup for free. So there's no app to down there, there's no deposit, you don't have to scan anything. So your experience as a customer as a coffee drinker, the only thing you have to do that's extra is you do a second tap. So the barista serve you to coffee in a reusable cup, your tap your card a second time onto our little terminal. That all that's doing is matching the cup that you've borrowed to your card. There's no fee, there's no charge, it's all free. But if you then don't bring the cup back after a set period of time typically eight days, then that's when you'll get a small fee, typically around £3. So we found that £3 mark is just about right, it's enough to incentivise people to want to bring it back, but it's not too huge a barrier for people as well. So it's building it from the ground up around convenience. But this is one thing we have found over the years, I think it's a bit of a trap to think when we talk about convenience it's just for the end customer, but actually it's got to be convenient for the barista, it's got to be convenient for the back of house, logistics, washing, drying, and that's been a really interesting sort of design challenge for us that we found a really good challenge. Most innovation comes from being set really hard challenges, so this has been one of those occasions. It's trying to think of the whole concept and then that's when you can say well actually it's just as convenient because it's just as convenient for everybody. And the other really interesting aspect we found is it's also got to be convenient to sell in because trying to eradicate St. Gilles is a big step for people. We're so entrenched within it, especially the bigger of the organisation. And so we have found we've got to make it convenient for the, which very often is probably the sustainability manager, to then sell in this whole new concept. That's something we've really found is got to be convenient as well. Yeah, to give them all the arguments that they need to talk to the different stakeholders in their organisation. Completely. Recognising that has been really crucial. Okay, so could you talk us through how it works in practice? Where would people have to bring the cups back to and other cups branded? What's a typical scenario? Yeah, I mean, it does vary depending on where you are. It can be quite different if you're in a stadium or an office or a high street cafe, but typically you're bringing the cup, so you've borrowed the cup for free and your the only thing is to bring it back. And it's generally we've found actually bringing it back to the same location works. Office environments are easy, they're great because you're in the same environment, it's very easy to bring back. So those semi enclosed environments are very easier. I think the big challenge is high street and the way we're tackling that is actually what we frame as an all-in process. So we're trying to get the whole town to adopt the whole system. So every cafe is on a level playing field. There's no single use option anywhere in town. And then every Every cafe becomes a hub to drop the cup back. We found we're talking to four or five towns at the moment, and actually you find that actually, your at terms of convenience, you're actually closer to another cafe than you're ever gonna be to a bin or a recycling station. As we know, high streets are littered with cafes, which is a good thing, because we all have our coffee, but yeah, you're never too far away from a drop off point. So you build that whole ecosystem. So from that journey perspective, you're just borrowing the cup, and then you're finding actually there's a convenient spot to then just put the cup in a, we shouldn't call it a bin, of course, it's a collection point, but those collection points can be what we frame as a dumb collection point, as in there's no tech involved. It's just a conventional area to put your cup. And the way our system works is that you then scan that whole bin with an RFID gun, and that just a click of a button effectively scans everything in that bin in one go. - Wow. - So that's how we effectively sort of get them back into the system and again, the word convenience is gonna keep cropping up, but that's how we get it super convenient for everybody. - Mm, and in that town model, so once those cups have been dropped back into the cafe, what happens then in terms of washing and reusing the cups? - Mm, there's two options. One is if you've got the infrastructure already in place to wash then cafes do their own washing, because the cups are designed to go through a conventional commercial dishwasher. So you can go for that option, the other option is to, and we arrange this, but a third party can come in and collect wash on a separate location and bring them back. And town's work particularly well for that, we're in discussions where there could be just a centralized washing station in the middle of the town and very often the local authorities are quite, that's what they're keen to help out and say, well actually we can loan you an area. And it is generally literally one person going around town on an electric bike collecting cups, taking them about washing them and then just redistributing around the town. To touch your crotch, one, it's cost-effective but two really small footprint as well. - And what would make, you know, what's the criteria for saying that that's a better system than the cafes washing their own, is it to do with hygiene for the reusable, is it to do with organising the redistribution around likely demand or something else? - Yeah, I think it's, for towns, it's that redistribution element because you will find you get hot spots where people are trying to drop them off and then it's sort of unfair to labour all that washing on one cafe. So that works, it also works with things like trains and train lines 'cause you get effectively invariably all the cups dropped off at the end of the line. So you sort of redistribute again there. So I think, and the other practice practicality 'cause for straightening a lot of fast food chains and cafes have lost their ability to wash crockery and then sadly, you know, there has definitely been that move to convenience there. - Wow, because of the being so just so much disposable cups, yeah. - Yeah, wow. It's one of my big, my big bug burrows is when you die and in and still get served in a single use in a packaging, it's like, it's just, it's lazy and it's trying to cut corners and cost, isn't it? But that's a different piece of legislation and discussion perhaps. - Yeah, that's what we need. So, so think about perhaps homing in on that town centre as a model in your experience, what's been the key criteria for succeeding with those reuse systems across the town? - The real key element is an all-in approach where everybody is all in at the same time and single use is just not an option. Typically, if we work with sites where they still want to have single use and a borrowing model in unison side by side, your uptake at best is sort of 20, 30%, which is still reasonably high considering people are there with an option. - Yeah, and better than the bring your own reuse. - Yeah, right, yeah. - Yeah, now that's a really good point. And so, yes, that's sort of a positive, but actually if you go cold turkey as such, then obviously the adoption makes a lot higher and people don't have a choice. And we've got enough evidence now data to prove that if you go down that route, it does work, you don't lose, you don't lose server rates, you don't lose coffee, you don't lose money in effect. So I think one of our big areas now, sort of nine, 10 months into having this platform live as such is having to try and persuade people to go cold turkey. I get it, I can see a reservation of thinking, "Oh, that's a big move and what if I lose coffee and serves and revenue?" So I think that's where we're added to the main. You've got enough evidence to say, "Well, here's another site exactly like yours. "They've gone cold turkey and here's the data to prove "it didn't affect coffee sales." That's a big one. And I think once you've got so far in to the system where you've got data, then it obviously becomes less risk for people, which is, so we're finding it's like a snowball effect really. - Yeah, that sounds good. And are you finding perhaps the independent coffee baristas, the cafes, are they more likely to be all in from the beginning compared to the chains, or does it just depend on the town and the individual people involved? - I'd say it's actually about the same interest in the, over the years we've done a lot of work with the big nationals and I could safely say that they are keen to engage. So if we are talking to a town, I think the perception is with the people you're talking to within the town is well, but the nationals probably aren't going to be interested, actually they are, because they are looking for pockets of trials and data. So they're actually quite engaged and often very keen to get involved. So it's sort of a 50/50, I'd say. But yeah, we are finding with the town model, it's the challenges is getting everyone together and everyone on the same machine in the same page. The logistics challenge of trying to pull 40 odd different independent cafes into one room and sort of pitch the whole concept to them is, that's the hardest bit. We're very grateful for sort of leaning on local authorities or very often local, just locals in the community who want to champion that side of things. And so we're very dependent on them, which we're very grateful for. - Yeah, that kind of reminds me of one of the book publishers I know who encourages authors around the launch of their book to have what she calls a street team. So you kind of engage people who are fans of the book content or interested in the subject matter around the country or around the world to go and approach their local book shop and ask if they'll stock it. So I guess it's that kind of thing, isn't it, ahead of the launch who would be on the street team for the tap and reuse system and how are they getting on? And I guess sharing tips, what conversation starters have worked best and all that kind of thing. - Yeah, that's a very, very, very, exactly. And it's very healthy thing, isn't it, to drive things from within. They often will succeed in the long run far better when they, yeah, it's a local person who already uses that cafe a lot and is known as a loyal customer and so on. - Yeah, completely. - Yeah, excellent. So circular and co has moved on to making quite a few other forms of on-the-go reusable packaging over the last few years. So it's now the reusable coffee cups that you are making back in 2020, the travel mugs and water bottles that people can buy online. And what would you say makes the circular and co reusable cups and bottles better than the ones people will typically see in their local hardware store or supermarket or other online brands? - I think there's two aspects there because there's two things that we always try and do as a design company. There's two boxes we always want to take is one, they've got to be circular as standard. So right from the get-go, we're always trying to integrate recycled materials to be able to reuse that resource. They've got to be designed for long-ever tea so they last as long as possible. So easy to repair. And then critically, it's got to be recyclable in a bit of life and it's easy to disassemble and recycle. So we're always gonna be strong in that area but we have learned over the years that you can't, you can't just rely on sustainability. I kind of wish we could but you obviously got a design really functional products that work really well. That's fundamentally what we're all after. So that's another area that we put a lot of time and effort into. And actually that's the bit, we obviously really enjoy. It's just trying to come up with innovative functional solutions to things. Again, over the years, we've been going 23 years now. No. hon yn meddwl all rh Somebodyl green. òi tele gydda a pewer y cora throughout daori o gyfer it Duch ac i dvis е encaёт a go poped a cofo gallu gor்au o ti bod yn llwyr howe sy'or craedd cael ddaint mae hynny fwybrega Dynaedd seus fy olds happen i ddai oedd ddol? dryŐ sjperaint, anyutio fieraint! Freig dda yn yna badges 'Twasplwyn nhw'n ffodig gefnog Dyna самophoedd gan fel ei fynd crisis faciolion. I exhale, sy'n rhyngoyduir ym yr unw. Tabeth escapetwagioedd gweith ei dil? Mae'n gweithioedd yn yna yn ymw'n gweithioedd. Mae'n gweithioedd yn yna. Mae'n gweithioedd yn yna, mae'n gweithioedd yn yna, ac mae'n gweithioedd yn yma'n gweithioedd yn yma. Mae'n gweithioedd yn yma yn yma yn yma yn yma. Mae'n gweithioedd yn yma yn yma yn yma yn yma yn yma yn yma. Jaoddi lawذod yn rhywbushiad, oаwn gw longestb eithrial stidd, sy concellio llaith hyn, wrth gwAAAAith ac achydcken, washed cream Corell function, sy'n pwisarol amost galWhenmw, swyd sic,��wro denn7, ramenith hynare wedi'n c ail, ond eich gywho ЗаmnIC – a'r hynny, a'r hynny, sy'n pwisarol amost galWhenmw, sy'n pwisarol amost galWhenmw, sy'n pwisarol amost galWhenmw, a hyd a ni'n urytdick cyn an birlikte proving o addresses oethun hwn digwydd o ikobyr i labeled fel, We did some traveling. I took a little bit of time off Dyson. They're very kindly allowing me to go and do a bit of traveling. And we sort of fell in love with the UK again and thought, well, actually, as long as we're anywhere in the UK, we could live anywhere. And we literally just looked at the map and thought, "Cormor, that's the place to live." Because it's the ocean sports and sea sports are amazing. So that was the catalyst. So 24 years ago, we moved to Cormor. My wife got a teaching job, and I set about the fate of doing my own Dyson because there was no real design work down in Cormor. So I started out doing my own little products, spent three years in a shed with just me, designing products, and trying to sort of get them made and get them out to shops. But interestingly, that very quickly kind of took off for me. It wasn't long, but before I had 300, 400 shops around the UK and almost made a sustainable living out of it. So yeah, that's how I got started. But when I left Dyson, I'd done a few bits of work there around using recycled materials. So I knew, technically, I'd had a bit of an insight to think, actually, technically, this could be done. And when I left and when I set my own mini-dyson, I thought, that's morally something I should start looking at. And then if I'm honest, I also thought it was a USB as well to try and stand out. So really, 24 years ago, we were literally trying to design in a circular way without really labeling it or realising it, or circular economy wasn't even a thing really back then. So we were sort of inadvertently aware ahead of our time, but it wasn't through some clever 20-year visionary mission I had. It was purely just to be thought that was the right thing to be doing. Yeah, that's interesting. And obviously, you can a long way and the recycling aspect of it is now front and center, isn't it, as well as moving people away from disposable into reuse and durability and caring for what you've got and what you're carrying around with you? Plead, yeah. We've been on that journey 20 years ago, as I said, it wasn't a thing. And then we've literally seen it become a thing. And we're so excited by that. And we've benefited it, I guess, as a business. But we're still as passionate as ever. The word economy-- when we talk about circular economy, the word economy can put a lot of people off for straightening me. But for me, it's the actual critical element to when we're designing a product. It's the fact that it is built around an economic structure that if you get right, is sustainable and works. It's not funded by anything else. It's not propped up by anything else. That's always personally excited me to make-- that's why I've always thought it will fundamentally make a proper difference in the world. Because if you get it right, the economics work. So that's why we're still passionate about it and why we always want to do it. And we believe as a company that it will and can make a huge difference. Yeah, I think that's really important. And I guess what worries me is I see a lot of big businesses-- not so much in packaging and so on-- but in other products-- kind of doing random acts of circularity that might grab a headline. But and might solve one tiny problem in the product design, but create others. You might replace a plastic with a biomaterial. But now there's no way of separating that out effectively. And so the whole product isn't recyclable. And I think the temptation is people are choosing-- let's just do a material swap because that's not too risky. We're not changing the product per se. We're not asking people to engage with us differently in terms of now they've got to have a service or whatever instead of buying a product. But often it can just add cost and complexity. And then all the people who were worried about circular economy strategies in the business and now saying, well, look, that's just cost more money. And it's not got us anywhere. And so you've lost the opportunity. And I think the work that you and the team at Circlework and Co have been doing to really think about how to make reuse attractive, convenient, an easy option for people so that now you're bringing the whole customer base with you, as well as being able to bring financial and relationship advantages for the cafes and the other businesses. That's got to be the way forward to think, what do people really want to do with this kind of product? And how can we make something more circular that adds value for the business and provides value and satisfaction and feel good components for the customer? I get really excited by two things in the circular world. Is when you see the penny drop for people around circularity, that's really rewarding. But equally, it's just as rewarding when you design a product and it's circular by standard. And the end customer doesn't need the penny to drop, because they've just done what they always do. But inadvertently they've become circular. So they're the two aspects that I find really exciting. And when we get that right, it's really good. So it's twofold really. I do believe fundamentally it should be driven within. So the products should just become circular without having to sort of pull or even inspire consumers to go down that route. I don't know if a pair of trainers or a TV, they buy a pair of trainers or a TV, but it happens to be circular. I think that's the way to solve it. I've been to too many conferences where everyone's like, what's the silver bullet? And it's like, oh, consumer behavior. If we can change consumer behavior, everything will be-- all our problems will be solved. I just think that's just completely wrong. That's amounts to climbers. Yeah, exactly. You're just avoiding the question almost. And so there'll be people interested in design listening to this. What would you say are the most important aspects of designing for the current business landscape, kind of perhaps thinking beyond cups from a design angle? It's an interesting one. There's practical things. We have a rule of a 100, 100, and I think everybody can set themselves out. So 100% recycled content, at least 10 years use, and then 100% recyclable. That's not to say you're always going to achieve it. As you set that as your pillar that you want to achieve. It's on a practical level. I think very simplistically, if you're running a design department, you're a designer. That's just try and implement 100, 100, and 100 in whatever we're doing. And secondly, I think you've got to believe it and drive it from within. If you are a designer, you've got a responsibility, I think. And I think you should feel guilty if you put products on the market that you know either single use or all virgin materials or they're just linear. Because I think legislation is going to take its time to force people to do it. So I think we're still in a stage for Australia at the moment where it's going to become-- it's going to come from the designer. You could argue it needs to come from the CEO downwards. And we see a lot of that where a big corporate is trying to drive that agenda from the top. But it actually doesn't filter down to the raw bare bones of design. And you can see that often. So I think that's where I think it's got to be driven almost by the designer and the responsibility of the designer. We're seeing-- we do a lot of work with universities. We're seeing a lot more product design courses lean towards sustainability now, which is really good. So there are sustainability product design courses, which won a thing probably five, six years ago. So it's happening. Sure. That's really-- excuse me-- encouraging to hear that. And what advice would you give to designers who are frustrated with designing stuff? And the brief is, can you make this a bit cheaper, a bit less durable, and look flasier than the last model? I think my advice would be try and still tick all those familiar commercial boxes we've all got to tick. But still do it in a circular way. And you can do it. OK, I've talked about materials being more expensive. But if you clever and innovative, you can still tick the commercial boxes to make it viable for whatever company you're designing for. But it can still be circular. It's not an insurmountable and impossible mission to do. And we're living proof of that. So I see it time and time again with other organizations we help design for. So that would be my advice is that trying to hit that 100, 100, or all, but you can still do it in a way that ticks all the boxes, the classic commercial boxes that unfortunately still need to tick. Yeah, thank you. And from a personal point of view, what are you most excited about for 2026 in the coming year? I think we've got some new products coming through. That always spurts me on on the business one, because they're in similar products in the reusable frame, but going in completely different categories. y cyf�wrs� eu chymda, wrth gynleg diportau eu gyfer gyfer eulpwch i ffer eu housydd yn cunog. Bastofed نadichrodew better authenticationol darwch i'r dynoad bobyn hon. Mae'r dodion hon. Mae'r fodig wrth gynfi perderol rydyn nhw ayol o weranc sy'n granag ligw â reiig yn me geglau a bio gyms, o magneticio og saeth "i gifoedd llyithfundraiza Saben lawi'r lupio dy dry,оеb am gen High mijnill. a alflat cylu ac ydyn cyd however yng Nghymru? Las f Chef Reedus pros amostñac yna gyrde wedi獷 eraill yn pwy ear third chromet concentrating a ji bfeithio pan Tryna hardien mae iawn yr nodylliadau cymryd a gwer o feyrog gwriaeth tarchulio yn gefnig ac pan samu reudiau cyfonomio'r rhywb. P running Ma ShIC Mae yna eili fazendo eraill yn yr ydy byddech a'ill yma. Mae cyfiadirc yr union. Waill yn yrithread throne oedd weld. Mae cyflfendohau, yna lay Knowledgewyd gyda rhaid? cetera. Mae cyfonomio'r rhywb yn yr hynny. Mae'n yna gwrsio'r rhywb. Mae cyfonomio'r rhywb. ac gweithioedd hynny i'n rhaid. Mae'r gweithioedd hynny. how circular and co is experimenting with ways to increase engagement with reuse. For example, to help people feel part of a bigger movement, and to see that each of us more actions do make a difference. The data that circular and co is collecting is crucial, especially now they have plenty of compelling evidence to help communities and other organisations feel confident about likely take-up levels, about return rates, and about how the system works in practice. All of this helps potential clients to build a robust business case up front. I love the simplicity of circular and co's design rule, 110, 100, using 100% recycled content, designed to last at least 10 years, and to be 100% recyclable. I was also encouraged by Dan's approach to sourcing and specifying recycled materials. As he explained, they've expanded the range of materials to include textiles, bubblegum, and other things that have little value as recyclots. They also use recycled stainless steel, so they can offer products that keep drinks hot for much longer periods. Having listened to a podcast about the dangers of storing hot foods in plastic containers, with the risk of toxins leaching into our food and drinks, I was I admit to feeling nervous about my circular cup, which was made from end-of-life coffee cups. It was very reassuring to hear Dan talk about the extensive analysis and third-party tests that each material and cup design goes through, to make certain that toxins cannot migrate into the drink. I've included a link to their paper on those issues and to an article about recent research on the health issues of single-use cups. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Circular Economy Podcast, and enormous thanks to our brilliant, dedicated, and change-making guest this week, Dan Dicker of Circular & Co. As always, you can find out more about Dan Dicker and Circular & Co at Circular & Co.com, that Circular-a-n-d-co.com. You can follow them on social media and check out the other links we mentioned in the show notes at CircularEconomyPodcast.com. And please help more people tune into the Circular Economy by following the podcast on LinkedIn. And I'd love to connect with you there too. Please drop me a message to let me know what you think. I believe we can all help create a Circular Economy. The choices we make at work and in our everyday lives send strong signals to companies and governments, making it clear we all want a healthy, regenerative, and fair future. By talking about the problems and solutions we can create a movement for change. If you like this podcast, please help other people find it by leaving a rating and a review wherever you listen. If you're new to the Circular Economy, why not check out our Getting Started playlist on the podcast homepage. Plus, there's an interactive podcast index, making it easy to find episodes on the three key Circular Economy strategies or for a specific market sector. And to dig deeper, please check out my award-winning book, A Circular Economy Handbook, Published by Kogan Page. Thanks so much for listening to the end and I'll see you next time.