#1706: Using Immersive Journalism to Document Genocide in Gaza with “Under the Same Sky”

The Voices of VR Podcasts Hello, my name is Ken Bye, and welcome to the Voices of VR Podcast. It's a podcast that looks at the structure and forms of immersive storytelling and the future of speech computing. You can support the podcast at patreon.com/voicesofVR. So continue my coverage of If a Doc Lab 2025. This episode is with a really amazing piece called Under the Same Sky, which ended up pointing the special jury mission, Runner up prize at If a Doc Lab 2025 for immersive nonfiction. So this is a 360 video that's shot in the context of Gaza and is kind of bearing witness to the humanitarian crisis and genocide that's happening there in Gaza. So this is a really powerful piece that is shot by a journalist there on site, Sammy, and then Khalil is from Syria and getting these dispatches and then kind of weeding together this 38 minute documentary where you're able to kind of bear witness to just the horrors of the humanitarian crisis that's there in Gaza. And it's a real historical document and allows you to bear witness to what's happening there above and beyond what you're seeing on your social media feeds, which can sometimes be somewhat decontextualized and not have a deeper story or history that's involved with that. So we're covering all that and more on today's episode of The Wishes of VR Podcast. So this interview with the Under the Same Sky team of Sammy, Khalil, and Khalil, happened on Saturday, November 15th, 2025 at If a Doc Lab in Amsterdam, noice. So with that, let's go ahead and dive right in. Hi, I'm Khalil Asshawi, I'm a visual journalist. I have an initiative called the Front Line and Focus XR. We started as a Front Line and Focus in 2016. And then in 2020, we started thinking on to introduce stories in new way. So I like to work in VR. So we started Front Line and Focus XR. And in 2021, Google News Initiative. So it's given us a huge support to start with our new project. And since then, we've produced more than 300 stories in VR. All of them is between three minutes till eight, nine minutes maximum. So the first long story for us, it's our film, the film. And the The Same Sky from Gaza. And we continue with our production in VR, and they are also. My name is Khalil Khalaf. I am the public relations and I do also project coordination with the Under the Same Sky team in Front Line and Focus XR as well. Nice. And maybe you could also introduce yourself and what you do in the realm of VR. He's a Victor of Halak, in Tamil and in Sri Lanka, how do you do that, and how do you do that? I am Sami Sultan, I am a part of the organization. I work in the organization of the organization of the organization of the organization of the organization. I will later translate. Okay, he said my name is Sami Sultan. He's a photojournalist, and he's been doing photojournalism since 2015, and he's covered most recent war in Gaza in its entirety. And then maybe you could each give a bit more context as to your background and then journey into working with immersive media. Well, I'm the journalist in Syria, so I graduated in 2006, and then we started as a journalist. I'm a photographer, originally, but after that I started to take a video, and then we started that there's a new kind of media called VR. And I see there is also, and I love VR a lot, then we bring a new camera, and VR, it's a small one, it's connected with the mobile. It's our first VR, we capture it, we capture something related to agriculture and something related to nature. But we can't imagine that we will introduce a story in a war zone via VR. So we start thinking, okay, let's try and see what's happened. So we practice on that things, we don't know anything about VR and how to edit for VR. Also, it's a huge thing to edit for VR. So we watch a lot of YouTube videos, and also we see how the cameras deal with the program and editing and everything. Then we start to use our stories, and after that we start to try with a new way to introduce and present the stories. So sometimes we make an interactive story, so if you go to our website you will see VR story and interactive story. An interactive story sometimes we mix between VR and VR. So it's so hot, by the time you will be an expert in that things. And for editing it's so hot to editing for VR, because you can't see what you are doing, like when we editing for a normal video. So you should edit and try, and after that if there is any mistake you back to the editor to program edit again and back it to put it inside the VR headset. So it's a long story with under the same sky. It takes from us between writing script and choosing the material, everything. It's like nine months of post-production. The hard thing is that editing, because it takes a long time. But I think any new headset makes it easier, especially with I think Apple we kind of edit our stuff inside this headset. So yeah, so now we are under the same sky, and now we are starting to work on a new movie. It's a documentary from Syria. So we work on this documentary on both sides, VR and the normal way. Maybe a bit more context as to your background and your journey into working in journalism and with VR equipment as well. If you have something about your creativity, you can go to the office and find out what VR and VR are, and how to make 360 and this reality. I started working in the office, I know about 25 years, I don't know the exact time I was working in the office, I just wanted to see the director of the office. I started working in the office. Okay, he started working in journalism since 2015, covering all of the events that happened in Gaza, and trying to expose all of the crimes that is committed by the Israeli occupation. He tried to cover all of the events that happened in Gaza, the suffer of the people that are living in Gaza and the Israeli occupation, and the multiple wars that happened during that time. He started using the VR and the 360 cameras and during the recent war in Gaza. He started using the VR and the 360 filming style to debunk the Israeli story that what is happening behind the camera is not what is happening in front of the camera. They were kind of saying that it's all staged, it's all actors, there is nothing of that nature is happening on the ground, but with the 360 and the VR you can capture both the front and the back of the scene at the same time. So this is kind of debunking the Israeli story. This is kind of debunking the Israeli occupation, this is kind of debunking the Israeli occupation, and it's all in the Arab world. sky he tried to deliver the message that we are living under the same sky but you have some places in the world that have a normal life as people go to work or schools it's fine but there is Gaza or you have the masculine the starvation and all of the atrocities that happened all of the crimes that happened in Gaza and he tried to do his best to deliver the right message and the actual accurate visual reality of what's happening in Gaza although he thinks that it's only covering five or ten percent of the actual events that happened during the recent war yeah so is mandatory to wear the flag jacket and the helmet to go and film but sometimes he had to take him off because they were targeted by the Israeli occupation they targeted and killed journalists because of that so he used to take them off sometimes and go and he was also used to coordinate with Khalil and the team to send the material on a daily basis because he was not guaranteeing for him to stay alive for the next day yeah yeah so maybe you could give a bit more context for how under the same sky began okay while we are working on VR story so when everything happened in Gaza so we decide okay we should have a footage from there because we are produced a lot of story in VR style but we don't have anyone inside the Gaza and we don't have any footage from there so me and team start asking okay let's do some VR and put it in our social media just start just for social media and we should be there so I ask my friend about a videographer do you know anyone inside the Gaza so he can take a footage for us he said okay there is a Sami so I contacted Sami and at the beginning we asked him to do you have a 360 camera he said no so I told him can you ask about that he said okay so it takes from us one and a half month to bring camera because it's impossible to find that 360 camera inside Gaza and there's a like a lane between north and south Gaza no one can cross this lane so he's going in a danger way to bring a camera from the north to the south and so after one and a half month we have a camera finally and he started like feeling for us at the beginning we told him okay filming everything we need just footage to see what's happened there so he started filming in destruction and camps how the people flee from their home house is everything so we published like two or three times on our platform and after that when we see this is a huge we shouldn't stay on just publishing something for social media so I decided to go ahead with that movie so I told him you should go and make an interview with the people to see what we can get so he make first interview second interview it's good for us so I told him okay let's follow one person in his life so we follow Haninshara she's a journalist I think he's so here in her house and how we deal with her life and after that we have an interview with Wilda Khadoukh we have also an interview with Sami's friend so after we have all this material we decide okay Sami he said okay I should go out of here because it's impossible to stay here they would kill me so I told him okay let's take a last footage while you are crossing border to Egypt but unfortunately when he contacted with us after one week he disappeared for one week and after that he said hi I'm back I told him how how are you how is everything with you he said okay I'm safe I'm in Egypt but they stole everything from me on border even that camera so we don't have any footage I filmed on the border but unfortunately I don't have anything so thank God he saved now and with us and we start working on script everything and at the end you see under the same sky so just a quick clarification he was able to get all the footage out or the footage was confiscated I'm just because I mean we're seeing the footage so I'm just trying to yeah yeah he sent the footage day by day for us but we're talking about last day when he going out from a crossing border from Gaza to Egypt based on his camera all stuff so we don't have this day it's good to see Sami's cross to end the story here oh okay so the last day of footage was confiscated but okay okay the army took all of the equipment all of his cameras his hard drives his 360 camera everything equipment worked a lot of money and a lot of material inside it's all gone they took it from him so but they were able to preserve at least what we're seeing in the film but also daily transmissions of things okay and so there's a line that you wrote around how the environment tells a story and so I'm really struck by how much having a camera there that the space is telling much broader story so I guess a question for Sami is around the way that the environment is telling the story and how he's able to use VR to capture parts of the environment to tell a larger story of what's happening in Gaza and just curious to hear some of his thoughts and reflections of using VR as a medium to capture that story of the environment. [Music] [Music] okay so he's saying that no matter what you use either VR or any other kind of filming equipment it will not capture 100% the environment that we were used to live in Gaza yeah. [Music] he said he used to cover these stories the environment and everything else using VR and other kind of filming equipment and he was threatened by the Israeli army the threatened him against his life and his family's life as well and he was also as anybody else in Gaza was also hungry and looking for food looking to feed his family at the same time yeah. [Music] he said using VR was very helpful to debunk the Israeli story that it's fabricated the story that the journalism is showing is fabricated the Israeli army used to say they are the most ethical army in the world the whole time but VR shows you the front the back the right and the left of the scene so you basically debunk the entire story that the Israeli army is saying it's fabricated in VR he was hoping that they will be some kind of intervention to stop this mass killing and mass atrocities that were happening there. He said now I am in IDFA it's kind of a make believe thing for me I still can't believe that I am here I wake up every day and just look at the sky and look at the place and can't believe that I am in Amsterdam at the same time you had the people in Gaza it was raining in the last couple of days and they're being drowned in the they being like kind of a lot of flash floods and another kind of flooding for the tents and the camps in Gaza and this is the whole idea of the movies under the same sky because I am now in Amsterdam and living kind of a and okay normal life and people in Gaza are still suffering from the same thing that they were suffering from in the last few years so it's kind of a very difficult thing for him to be living in this like kind of reality while he knows in the back of his head that the people in Gaza are still suffering yeah yeah this is a it's a really powerful piece that I just really was moved by to have an opportunity to bear witness to the horrors of the trauma that's happening there and you know I guess as you were trying to put it all together I'm just curious around like the scripting and how to find the story or the narrative or the through line to sort of like I don't know just it seems like such an impossible thing to to see and be there on site and bear witness to but also to kind of like put it all and together into a story I thought the piece was able to show quite a lot of different moments and scenes and trying to show the full spectrum of all the different situation of what life is like there but also all the different aftermath of these different attacks and so yeah I'm just curious to hear the process of trying to will this down to a 38 minute experience that has so much of what's been happening there to try to like tell the larger story of what's happening in Gaza yeah yesterday I was talking to someone and he told me how how you work on this kind of piece so it's it's like you taking a piece I make it upside down so in that documentary or any film industry they start with the writing script and they make it like storyboard and after that they start filming but here we are filming and everything came into you and after that you start thinking okay how can I deal with that how can I put it together and how can I introduce everything to people to see it as I see it so at the beginning so I open the editing program and start with payroll one by one and look at it and after that okay I start writing so it takes me like nine months to put one by one and write for every single shot we take it so it's so hard it's so tough to see these things every day for nine months and it's hard to say that we start to see these things but I think we should see their things so that's why I force myself to work on their things even if it's hard for me and hard for anyone but it's important to work in pieces like this one so yeah I work like that I put the footage in the premiere and I start writing script and after that I look from far to see how it was so yeah after that we have under the same sky I may add we kind of we're dealing with what we have because Khalil had specific ideas of like what needs to be filmed and what do we want to capture but also there is reality on the ground in Gaza like Sami could go to places in like a specific day like and window opens they were like okay you need to go right now you need to film like one two three four please be safe take your helmet take your flag jacket go wear them do as like just avoid the situation if you don't think it's safe enough so we kind of had to do what we wanted to do but at the same time we wanted to capture more but we just couldn't do it because of their security conditions in Gaza and it became impossible at some point to get more footage to get more films and also it became impossible for Sami and his family to stay in Gaza so they had to leave at some point so we had an idea we captured almost all of it but we missed some things because of the conditions in Gaza yeah perfect and so for Sami as you're either responding to events or you're going to cover something and so just curious to hear around the motivation for him to keep going out and doing that so the story he's telling himself in order the importance of what he was doing so that's one part but they also the other part of putting himself in harm's way or at least you know going into these dangerous areas to capture the history and so just you know trying to get a sense of like what was motivating and what that was like yeah so I know how you were able to get a sense of how you were able to get a sense of where you were and how you were able to get a sense of where you were and how you were able to get a sense of where you were and how you were able to get a sense of where you were and how you were able to get a sense of where you were Through his journalism work before the war many of the wires like many of the news agencies know him I know his work so he felt motivated to keep doing that and then also he had a big following on the social media platforms and they were like following the stuff that he was filming and capturing so that was another part of it At the same time he used to see a lot of stories on the news and social media that is not actually what was happening on the grounding Gaza and many of his friends relatives people outside of Gaza were like reaching out to him and ask him if this is actually the reality on the ground or is it something different that is happening so he wanted to show the actual picture of what's happening in Gaza that is in actual genocide that is going on he wanted to also show all of the atrocities and the crimes that the Israeli army is still doing in Gaza against civilians bombing schools bombing UN agencies and NGOs international organizations etc so he wanted to show the actual photo of what's happening on the ground to debunk the story that the Israeli army used to say he felt like he had a duty to actually deliver the message of the people of Gaza and show a true picture of what was happening of just some steps up here of what is happening on the grounding Gaza and yeah I think this is what he was saying He also wanted to deliver and show the actual picture of the famine that was happening in Gaza many women children and other civilians died of famine he himself used to go to cover and take pictures and like do the film for the movie hungry and he would go back home and sleep and he was still hungry so he wanted to deliver that picture like show that image that people are actually starving to death in Gaza there is famine ongoing and the world should intervene to prevent this from happening in Gaza there is no way to prevent this from happening in Gaza so he wanted to deliver the message of the people of Gaza and the people of Gaza and the world should be safe He's saying that with every death of a child and a civilian because of the famine the responsibility was mounting and becoming bigger on him and his fellow journalists to cover and deliver the whole picture and then when they saw that there was actually air drops and there is a humanitarian peer and they're like that there is actually aid can get into Gaza but the problem was the Israeli army is blocking aid from coming in so they felt more responsibility of like showing what's actually happening in Gaza and delivering the message so with the hope that more aid can come in and the famine will end so the responsibility mounted more when they saw that there was a humanitarian peer and they were able to deliver the message to the people of Gaza and Gaza so the responsibility mounted more when they saw that their message is being delivered and people are actually seeing that content and seeing the stuff that they are capturing in Gaza also the responsibility mounted more when the Israeli army started targeting journalists and they killed around 160 and they almost around 260 journalists were killed in Gaza during the most recent war so they felt like there is a national, misolio, watanio, ishtima aia, there is a national social and professional duty upon him and all of his fellow journalists to cover the war in Gaza the last responsibility they felt is like people with the idea of Gaza now in people's heads is like war and destruction and death so we wanted to show people that Gaza used to be a beautiful place, Gaza's love life and they want to live again and they want to rebuild again so they wanted to show there is another side of Gaza and it's not only the thing that you see on TV that is war and destruction and death it's also there is another side of it that used to be a lively and beautiful place before the war, yeah nice and what have been some of the reactions to the piece here at Dakla? this is the third time we said our film but this is a huge one because it's an ed fa so yes I saw a lot of reaction, people are really quiet they ask us to go around the world to let people see what they saw there is a lot of people can't continue watching movies because they said okay it's so tough for us and sometimes I think in okay this is good things that I deliver the message people start thinking of what happened even after two years and more than I think if we take in a reality more than 100,000 people killed so the reaction it's so important for us but we don't need just the reaction on crying or we need to act on the ground to stop this genocide if I may add the movie is graphic it's heavy it's a lot but this is the reality so if you want to hide away from that you can do that but you can also see it and reflect on it and do something about it and we are getting a lot of questions from people like what can we do and I want to say that this is not our responsibility to tell you what to do like there is a lot of things that you can do to support to help but I'm not gonna go and stand on a platform and say give money or like be an activist this is up to every individual to decide what do they want to do a reaction to that as Haley was saying many people couldn't actually finish the film because it stooped they felt it's too much for them but this is the reality and we wanted to show it without any edits without any hiding of what's going on and also to debunk all of the stories that Asami was saying this is fabricated this is staged it's not really what's happening on the ground no this is actually happening today happened yesterday it might happen tomorrow we hope not but it might yeah and the version that's showing here is I saw it with English subtitles do you also have versions with Arabic so we have an Arabic version it's by my voice we can't bring it here it's also here but I think most of the people here speak in English so that's why we just stuck with this one but we have yeah two version one in Arabic one in English okay I'm just asking because I was wanting to get same as reaction to the piece of and that I think the script helps to tie it all together so just curious to hear some of your reactions of you know you lived through a lot of this being there on the ground but I'm just curious what the experience of watching this VR film was like for you going back to these moments but also hearing the story that ties it all together he sent his reaction and his take it was very difficult on him to rewatch the movie again because it took him back in time and in place to all of the places and the people that he filmed while he was filming the movie yeah he said he cried a lot when he watched the movie for the first time because many people he filmed including family friends journalists are dead now killed by the Israeli army so it was very difficult for him to see that and go back in time and live that moment again will his friends his family and his fellow journalists were alive and now many of them are are dead yeah it took him back to all of the difficult times that he was still living Gaza although this movie he thinks that it covers only 5 to 10% of the actual reality in Gaza yeah so as you're putting together the script and the narrative and to try to tell the story just curious to hear a bit more around that process because there's a bit of telling the individual stories there's reflecting on what you're seeing and experiencing in terms of the footage and commenting on things and then ending with some statistics that are we see the destruction but trying to give a sense of the scope and scale of what's happening there in a way that is trying to punctuate the reality of what's happening there but just curious to hear a bit more around your process of trying to tie together all these disparate moments that are happening that are being documented but also to kind of weave it all together through the story that you're telling through the narration I think I said something about we start like taking a footage from Samia at that beginning so it's hard to see all that destruction but when we start working on it we start seeing that because we follow everything happened in Gaza from the beginning so you know the story you know what's happened there you know the people that's it because it's we are in the Middle East at the end we are from Syria and Gaza it's so close to us so we know the story from the beginning so we grown up with a Gaza story so it's easy to write something to something you see it before so it was hard for me but it's not hard to write in something for this kind of visual especially I covered the Syrian uprising since like 13 years 14 years so there's a lot of similarity between Syria what's happening in Syria and what's happening in Gaza yesterday we took a me and Samia we're talking about the things that what's happening in Gaza it's like a shortcut of what's happening in Syria we take like 14 years that country is destroyed and we need a lot of fears to repack building our country and what's happening in Gaza it's happening one and a half years now it's two years but all Gaza is under destruction so it's hard but we it's easy it's the same time it's hard to I told you that about the visual and to see what's happened to those people but it's easy because it's something related to us at the end so it's easy to write a script for that things takes a time because we have a lot of footage came in from Gaza so we have to choose in from it and after that we make it together and after that we make a script one by one to this one also sometimes we ask Samia to film some footage but it's impossible or something happened and we ask him okay stay safe don't go there don't do that so we have a technique to bring this footage to life in our documentary as you see we put like from social media we take enough footage also from Samis videos and from his friends videos and put it together so it looks like you are inside the room and there is a lot of footage around you so when you go around you see the same scene but from a lot of angles so that's one of our solution for something happened and we can't film it yeah I really also appreciate the film how it's able to go beyond the social media clips and to actually embed ourselves in there and to see a little bit more context that we've sort of been delivered these images of war through social media but it gets decontextualized from what's happening there so just curious to hear from Samie you're able to be on the ground and to share social media clips and you're transmitting these out but I'm just curious to hear what's been like to work on a project that is trying to tell a broader story that goes beyond just the social media to try to share what's happening there and to try to share what's happening there and to try to share what's happening there and to try to share what's happening there it was difficult to transmission from doing social media clips short ones to do a broader story long story especially at that time at some point they lost internet connection so he couldn't really send any files or upload any footage for Khalil to see what he was working on yeah so here he lies also that social media short social media clips doesn't really cover a broader story doesn't really deliver like a long and good narrative story so this is why he wanted to subscribe to the project and like do a longer term a broader story that delivers a good messaging covers a lot of aspect in the war of Gaza although it doesn't really cover the actual reality on the ground in total yeah it was a challenge to do the filming itself and go around and filming it was also a huge challenge to upload the files one minute VR can take about an hour and a half to be uploaded online so that was a huge challenge that he was facing in Gaza yeah he wanted to work on this long term project or like a long project because he wanted to deliver the message of Gaza because he was 99% sure that he would not leave Gaza he might not he might not be alive during his life in Gaza so he wanted to leave an impact on the war in Gaza yeah and I guess a question that comes up after watching a piece like this is what do you hope happens next with this whole situation with Gaza and Palestine and just curious like what is some ideal paths forward for what you would like to see happen I don't know if it's hard to it's really hard to question because what we hope now it's to end this war to be bold back but if we thinking about that where they will back destroy all the city there is a thousand of family disappear from this so what I hope is justice to those people that's it that's what I hope because if we talking about as I told you if I talking they back to city where they will back so when we talking with Sammy he's now in Egypt living in Egypt with his family if the war is end he can't back there's no home no place to back so I think we hope for justice that's it and if I may it's it's a difficult question because we're in a position again he would say we're in Amsterdam you know we're like in a movie festival and we can just go and eat anything I can you know it can go for a walk on the street I have no issues with that so for us to say what do we hope for what do we hope for of course the end of the killing the end of the genocide the end of the mass atrocities that is happening and of the famine justice for people but I think this is a question for the people of Gaza they should be able to determine what should happen what should happen who should be responsible who should be held responsible and how do we go on from here but for the moment we're just hoping for this to be ending today at this moment yeah curious what you hope for in terms of the situation in Gaza and what would you like to see happen what should be done and what should be done and what is done and what should be done and what should be done unfortunately what I'm wishing for is something that is taken for granted by the majority of the world population I shouldn't we shouldn't nobody should be wishing for them which is like the right to live the right to educate the right to eat etc like this is like the basic core human rights that nobody should be wishing for nowadays yeah that we are in a day that we wish for basic human rights to be met I wish for justice for the Gazans and I wish for all of the human rights groups all of the international organizations all of the international law institutions to be able to deliver justice to people of Gaza the people of Gaza are lively they love life they want to live and they deserve to have a better future my last wish and this is specifically for the Gazans is for them to be able to move freely he lived in Gaza for 27 years he couldn't leave nobody in Gaza can leave it's very difficult for them to move around I want the Gazans to be able to travel and go see the world and see how people are living outside of Gaza this is a very simple wish and it's a very simple ask that the Gazans don't have nowadays they are locked in that and that little piece of land and finally just curious to hear each of your thoughts around the potential of this type of immersive storytelling and what it might be able to enable as we move forward so as we look at VR and 360 video and immersive storytelling what do you hope that might go into the future for what that might be able to enable what I hope for I think this is the future it takes time but I think in the future we will rely on these things we will rely on VR and it will take time and thank God we start our company in this kind of reduction because I think we are in a good way in this year awesome yeah what I'm hoping for is as Khalil was saying this is going to be the future I'm hoping for more awareness and I'm hoping for the all of the big platform like Facebook for example is investing a lot of money apple is investing a lot of money for them to make it more affordable to make it more reachable for the ordinary people just to get like one of the headsets and see because this is a really transformative way of delivering any story it's something that puts you in the middle of it in the heart of it you actually disconnect from the whole world when you wear the headset so this is definitely the future I think it's going to be a big deal in the future and I think it will become more affordable it will become easier to reach for a wider population this is my hope for it to be easy to reach yeah and for me just what he sees as where virtuality and this type of 360 video what he hopes for what it might be able to enable or what the potentials of that are. I'm hoping to be able to use this technology for the VR and 360 and the AR and what it is like to be able to do with this technology. He's hoping for immersive journalism to be the future of journalism because it gives you the opportunity to cover and deliver a message and like a full factual story without editing without any claims of this is not what's happening with the ground. I hope it will be the future and it will be more spread and people can see it more because it's actually quite a factual journalism and it will minimize all of the myths and disinformation campaigns that we're seeing all over the world about what's happening on the ground in Gaza and in other places. Awesome well really appreciated having a chance to see the film is it going to be made available for people to see online or is it already published online. It's early I think to publish online we have maps to go through it and after that maybe it would be online. Yeah there's part of me that once everyone in the world does to see the film so I wanted to get it out there but there's usually a film festival circuit and other ways that you're getting it out there sounds like going the kind of normal festival route but yeah I'm looking forward for more folks to have a chance to watch the piece it's really powerful bearing witness to what's happening there and yeah just I think a real demonstration of the power of the medium to take people to a place to share what's happening so yeah thanks again for joining me here on the podcast and help bringing it all down. Thank you thank you for your time also thank you very much we appreciate it thank you thank you that's all that we have for today and I just wanted to thank you for listening to the WISIS VR podcast if you enjoy the podcast then please do spread the word tell your friends and consider becoming a member of the Patreon. This is a listen support of podcasts so I do rely upon donations from people like yourself in order to continue to bring this coverage you can become a member and donate today at patreon.com/WISISVR thanks for listening. (upbeat music)