170 "(kein) Sex vor der Ehe" zwischen Liebe, Körper und Glauben mit Martin Thoms

Welcome to a new episode. My name is Simona and I am always looking for answers. And as I have often said, you can really listen to this podcast here free, free of charge and I hope you also enjoy it. And we thank you very, very many supporters and at this point again very, very warm thanks for your donations. You can do that too, or you can include all important information there, you can find in the description. So, today on the topic, I am really, really looking forward to it. We talk about a topic that a lot of people deal with, touch, deal with. Some are totally overwhelmed and there are also people who are totally injured. And it goes as you may have already read in the translation, it goes about no sex before marriage or sex before marriage. And how does that fit with love, intimacy, body and faith together? I have talked to you again in the afternoon for a moment and I am curious about your feedback and how you can do that, you can also find in the description. So, after the intro, let's go. [Music] "Bezziehungshelden", a podcast by Team F for each other. Welcome, Martin Thoms here in the Podcast "Bezziehungshelden". Yes, I am looking forward to being here. Unfortunately, I haven't found the "drommelwirbel" yet for my guests. At some point he will come. Yes, I met Martin Thoms, personally at the church day, but previously already discovered in some podcasts and was totally enthusiastic. Totally enthusiastic, namely from the understandable language that the theologians can also speak. That surprised me very much and I am totally happy. And when we met at the church day, I thought, so now or never, now I'm talking to Martin Thoms. And invite him in. That's not too long ago yet. Yes, I also remember it as if it were only yesterday when we met at the church day. And in my eyes it is part of the basic skills of a good theologian to express yourself in such a way that one understands it. I hope that you have heard a lot now, right? Yes. Exactly. So, I would like to briefly introduce myself. I found out about you the following. So, Martin Thoms, who has not only studied theology, but has lived and loved it with understanding and a great portion of curiosity. Martin Thoms is a theologian, preacher, author, student and advisor. His way led him from the national church preaching about free church charismatic experiences to a little bit more complicated. I - this word - why can't you express that simply? So you can definitely, so contemplative encounters in classrooms. Exactly. And at that time he promoted systematic theology at the church high school in Wuppertal. And Martin is known for his inspiring preaching, seminary and his ability to understand complex theologian topics, understandably and close to life. His special approach is to accompany people in their sense and questions of life and to open up new perspectives, beliefs and spirituality. Done. Would you like to add something? Something is missing. So, I will always, if I need motivation in the future, just listen to the beginning of this podcast, how you made me so beautiful. No, I see myself in it. And on your - that's all from your website, a little bit short, even. There you can learn a lot about yourself, what you have done and what you have in front of you. I found it very obvious. Exactly, maybe you can still mention, so I know at least from you, from the conversation, you are just also delirious, right? Exactly, yes, I am delirious and I will also get married soon and think that it is very, very great. Exactly. And if you want to learn more about me, of course you can do that on the website you are talking about, martinthoms.de Or I also have Instagram, where I do things very actively, also martinthoms.de, you can just get a little insight into what I do and love. Yes, so I would say we get into the topic, enough foreshadowing, but it is also important to ask, I think, so that you can sort out a little bit so that you can take a little bit of a picture of the conversation partners. Exactly. And Team F is definitely also known to you, it's maybe the bridge where the man suddenly comes in, where does he go? So I practically hit the bridge and on the church day I asked you if you know Team F at all and that you said yes, exactly. Yes, exactly. So I know Team F, I used to be on Team F's "Familienfreizeiten". My parents also did seminars more often, so I took part in Team F, and that's why I always feel that way and I'm very happy that we are here now and talk about this topic. Yes, the christian bubble is a little bubble too, you meet more often. Yes, okay, let's get started. You let me come up with something and I have learned it. You wrote something, a text and also offered seminars on the topic "Sex vor der Ehe". You developed something there and what surprised me so much, because you have so many diverse experiences. I have already announced you with different christian contexts and free christian contexts. Did you have any exciting experiences with christian sexual morality, good or even, I don't want to say bad, maybe rather challenging ones, who asked you out? How was the excitement there? Yes, so I didn't learn that myself, mainly because of some explanations of my parents, but because of what was learned on christian free times, what you think about it as a christian. Of course, it was always difficult, exactly this, no sex vor der Ehe, the topic of homosexuality is sin. I actually only learned two things on this free time, about sexuality, and that was no sex vor der Ehe and homosexuality is sin. So two negative statements and I didn't bother at that time, I stuck it and tried to think about it and it is intellectually reasonable and biblical to reason why it is right. You can do anything. And then I found out in the course of the time, but especially with others, that it is not so easy. I found out then that there is a young man sitting there, it is too late with no sex vor der Ehe, or someone sits there, who is gay and just hears that it is a sin and so on. And then all these words, all these abstract words, got a face. It was no longer just a sentence, it was a face of people who, which is not just in theory, theoretically it is so and so. But it became livable, it became accessible and therefore always of course irritable, these words irritable, because you have to ask yourself now, what can I still say in the face of this particular face, if someone is standing in front of you and just breaks down on it, about this sharp dogma. And then I started to continue to think, to think and to really look at it, seriously, not just because the preacher says it in front of me, but to really look at what the Bible says about it and to look at it in depth. How can we truly, responsibly, ethically, in the 21st century, in their youth, in their orientation phase, in their identification phase, also convey human-friendly? With "Mach Moment #1", how did you personally experience the sexual morality of your family and your environment or your church? [Music] I'm curious, and then you developed something, I didn't let it go, it also comes over, and you said, I'll sit on it now, and what reactions do you have on it, since you do that, so you probably notice a difference. Yes, so I noticed that actually many people don't really react so critically or negatively or negatively, as you think. So maybe you have to say this as a little spoiler, my thesis is that sex is not only not only not bad, but is also positively celebrated by all the biblical books. And the question is not yes or no, but it's about something else. We'll probably get to that in the course of the conversation. And by the way, on this youth release date, where I joined the area, as a youth, there I am as an employee, and then I do a seminar evening. Then of course almost all the youth come, because they are interested, where I show you exactly this alternative perspective. And the youth are of course, first of all, many are excited that it has a depth, not just a sentence. It is very often, I have experienced that countless times, and then says a preacher who has always been Christian, or not Christian, says a preacher, sex before marriage is very bad, and then tells three negative examples of their circle of friends, their life, how bad it was, because they had sex with someone who broke up, and that's all very bad. And that's it. So then there is no argument. And then the Bible says that, and where does that actually come from? Genesis 2, father and mother left a meat. I ask myself, where is the office of office? I didn't find the office of office in Genesis 2. But in any case, there is no deeper explanation often. And that was the first thing, the youth were surprised that you are so deep and different, and can also be interested in Christian topics. And then they just felt some, wow, that's just a real perspective here, which is much more liberating on the one hand, and on the other hand much more thoughtful. So it does not lead to the believability, but to the depth, but at the same time to the depth. And some were of course, who have heard their life for 17 years, 17 years, sex before marriage is the greatest lesson. That's what distinguishes the sheep from the goats, I'll say, whether you do that or not, and whether you see that. Of course, there were also some a little irritated, but also curiously irritated. And then I think, yes, I would sometimes wish from so many adults that they would still be so dynamically interested in this youth there. When you told that someone, where you experienced it, comes into the event and does that, how do you know that too? Because the topic does not want to be stopped. Because I experience a lot of answers, they have a lot, a lot, a lot of hard points. And now that too, and it's like, aha, we said something, hugged away. And I don't think it's worth it, against participants, or against people at all, and not against young people who are really looking for orientation. And I think that's totally worth it, if you really think about it in depth and not just say something like that. So now we've said something like that, we can still talk about it. It's been 20 years now, in my opinion, nothing has changed. So I think that's great. And that's also a reason, we could also say here in the podcast, hey, you've already done a episode or even two, three. Yes, but I would like to make another episode. The other one is already a bit back, but not just because of that, but I find different perspectives. We are different people, we have different levels and perspectives, we understand that as well. And that's why I would like to talk about it again. And I'm looking forward to talking about your thoughts. I'm excited and curious. Exactly. So, I was allowed to look a bit over there, over your thesis, and I would like to get in there a bit. And you already said that you have also found a bit of criticism about the conventional education and teaching. And you are writing something from the spiritual and spiritual consequences that bring such a lesson with you, no sex before marriage. What does it do with people, when they get it thrown around their ears, in front of their feet? Yes, exactly. And that's ultimately the problem indicator. Because the problem with this "no sex before marriage" ethic is not at all whether people have sex or no sex before marriage, but that there is always a lot going on and that's exactly the problem. It will soon appear a book by Nana, so it's called "Fuck Purity", and there is this purity culture, so this purity culture, how it really traumatizes negative and also mentally difficult people. That's why it's about this book. I haven't read it, but I think it's good that there is this book, I would like to point out. Because the problem is that a young woman who is now married once stood in front of me, and then she said, "Martin, I really don't know how I'm supposed to be happy with the sex." I have always learned the 20 years of my life that there is something dirty, something forbidden, something sinful. I'm not allowed to talk about sex, I'm not allowed to give this feeling, this passion, the sinless flesh, I have to suppress that. And so this whole "no sex before marriage" ethic became a fundamental mistrust against their own feeling and experience world. This means that you may feel that you are in love with a young woman who is now 14 years old. The problem is not whether you have sex or not, but the problem is that you have to evaluate this feeling negatively. You mustn't go too close, don't do too much, because you know not what you feel, not what is in your heart, not your sense of need, not your intuition, but the law of God. You have to follow this law. The law of God is there to keep your sinless passions on the line, so that they don't explode. Then the prelude and the follow-up will not be in your heart, in which it is said, in which it is practically always said, "Following your heart would mean blinding everything you feel right now." It's not a cry, it's a deep self-knowledge, a deep follow-up. What do I actually want? The idea that always existed in theology, that God and self-knowledge are not allowed to be separate things, but to belong together. That means that if I come closer to God, I have to come closer to Him. I have to be able to see myself more. But if this theology, this "no sex before marriage" theology leads to me coming closer to God, then I have to get away from myself, continue to build this separation to myself, because I have to fundamentally mistrust myself in my feeling in the world of experience and have to devour everything that is ugly. Then the big question is, do I really worship God right now, or is it not really about what is joy over me? "Over me" is exactly that. It is about someone threatening you as a god-named index finger. Always with the raised index finger, watch out, watch out, watch out. Watch out, if you kiss now, it's almost like sex. So don't kiss too much. And first of all, you shouldn't overdo it. Because if you overdo it, that's the beginning of the end. And if you kiss together before marriage, then unfortunately you can't work with the low price team anymore. Because it's like sex before marriage. So the problem is not about sex, but the problem is that there is a lot going on, a vulnerability, that people are afraid of the sea. You shouldn't get too close, you shouldn't lie in a bed, you shouldn't sleep in a bed, you shouldn't pull together. And with that, ultimately something negative is created. The very natural, organic approach is made, very naturally, massively sanctioned, restricted and impossible. And ultimately, I think, the big premise on which this whole "purity culture" follows, is that always the abuse of a thing is forced to resist the right use of a thing. But that doesn't work. So there is a Latin word, abusus non-tollet usum. That means the abuse of a thing doesn't resist the right use of a thing. So it's like when I say, I don't know, I once had dinner with someone at the ophthalmologist, and the person slipped on the ophthalmologist, and he had to get a ambulance. So now I can't say, we've never eaten apples again. So the abuse of a thing, on many occasions, someone has drunk too much energy, that's why we have to forbid all energy drinks. No, the abuse of a thing doesn't resist the right use of a thing. And that's exactly what is done here. That's what is said, real, real abuse that happens in sexuality, too much. So if you have all the abuse that happens because of the relationship and sexuality in the world, if you take them all out, if they don't exist anymore, you'll probably give 50% less suffering. So that's already seen correctly by those who don't have sex with their parents. The saying is, a lot can happen, a lot of suffering can be generated. You can't just give it away to all people, do something with you and so on. But then there's always the abuse of a thing. So maybe an unanswered sexuality is put forward, to basically replace sexuality with a regulated structure, which is called the E. And of course that doesn't work. So it's said, if you have sex once, it's the E. That's why it looks like money. It will never be straight again. And then there's the question, maybe the money is not cut off at all, maybe the money is polished through it. So why is the negative always seen? So it's always the most negative image, what there is. The abuse of a thing is put forward to replace the abuse of a thing. And ultimately, I think it's a very big fear strategy that's behind it. That's what it's said. Here the secure horde of an E. was legally handed over to you. And here we give you the big sign of certainty that it will last forever. That everything here is fine, cozy and secure. And we don't know that. So just because you signed a contract with the horde, it doesn't mean for a long time that there will suddenly be no injury. And it doesn't mean for a long time that there will be something safer, more secure or more loving than two days before the signing of the contract. With us, moment number two. How do you experience your body in relationships? Do you feel connected to your body or are you separated? And what do you do good to feel very well in your skin? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? 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Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? Do you feel connected to your body? That was absolutely brilliant. You never heard anything about it. That was really enriching. For us, it was also different to go on about it. To help with this responsibility, to find this responsibility and to take it. Good that you said that again. And I also prepared myself. I'm already interested in the topic. It's been a long time. And I really wondered. Let's talk about what you said about Purity Culture. Where does it actually come from? It doesn't just come from the sky. Many people say that it's clear in the Bible. I don't think it's clear. There is no use for it. It's an interpretation room. I'm just reading a book about our church history. And I really had to swallow it. Augustinus, our church priest Augustinus, if you deal with him and his biography, you might have an idea where the roots of Purity Culture could come from. He lived in this Aztec. He had a year of problems with his desire. And then he founded the place. So it's highly interesting. And the interesting thing is that until now, it's drawn through radically. That it's very, very strong. And you also find some grounds. Did you also say where you were on the position? And I was also trying to figure it out. And to find the Bible for it. But can you help me a little bit? What about biblical arguments? No sex before marriage? Where is it? Or is it not in the Bible? How is it with the marriage? You also mentioned Adam and Eve. I've already read that. So a little bit longer ago, there was no state official in the Garden of Eden. There was no pastor who trusted her. Because the history of the E is also incredibly interesting. Exactly. Can you say one or two more words about it? Yes, I would like to. That's often the idea that is said. Yes, what happened in the Garden of Eden. And between Adam and Eve, they become a meat. And then you have to say that, yes, in a certain way, that's what I would also say, what ultimately means in the positive core, a completely connected relationship. But what doesn't necessarily have to be lived in the form of an ear. But if that's the core, then it would be exactly the same in the Garden of Eden. But it is in the form of some structures. So here is the talk about it. That the man sees the woman there and says, I am totally excited. And hopefully the woman sees you like that too. And they become a meat. There are no sanctions, no prohibitions, you can't do this, you can't do that. You have to wait until then. You have to go to the intermediate level first. You have to be there first. There is a blessing and there is a sign. No, what happened here is simply a connected, lived relationship that simply grows out of this passion. So it is far and wide no law enforcement. And then it is of course like that. In the Bible, there is no sex or marriage anywhere. The Bible is anyway a sexual ethical question in any way. No law enforcement, because it tells stories. A lot of what it tells cannot be normative. I sometimes say a little bit of fun to friends of mine who say, I take the Bible as a law enforcement for my life. Then I always tell them, yes, okay, I do that too. That's why I demand from today that the men have to have a lot of women again. And next to women and a hair and so on. It is also in the Bible. So if there is a Bible, then we have to take it normatively seriously. And then they often understand that it is not like that. That not everything is normatively understandable. But what is of course like that is that at biblical times, of course, especially the woman, when she slept with another man, but even if she had sex before, then she was of course nothing more important at the moment. But with men it is different again. So that has nothing to do with sex before marriage or not before marriage, but that is a patriarchal construct of oppression and minority and women. We really don't want that now. And then of course in this whole context, something fundamentally different than what we understand today, at least in the structural form. Because just because we now have the same word, it doesn't mean that it is the same community. So you can just do that very clearly. People who used to call Adolf with pronouns, that was a very normal pronoun. Now it is somehow a very, very strange name in terms of our history. It is the same word, but somehow something completely different. And that's exactly how it is with the word marriage. At that time, the problem simply did not exist, that you live in a single household with 25 people, and first you have to earn 10,000 euros so that you can even engage in this festival, which you have to register for a year and a half before, so that you get a location. And then the question is, do I really have to love these people? Do I have to be rich first? Do I have to have a catering location for a year and a half, so that I can finally love the people all the time? That doesn't even work. At that time, of course, it was completely different. There was often forced marriage, no love marriage, and then often very early, very, very early. So that there was actually hardly any opportunity to have so much sex before marriage, because the woman was already forced to get married. I recently heard that this is not true at all. They weren't always so young and so. And I said to myself, I have a little busy with church history, as a layman, so to speak. It's super interesting that you don't take it as a suicide argument, but that it also depends on the situations, whether it was war in the country or whether they lived in peace in prosperity. And you can see that when everything was quiet and peaceful, that it was also forced out and that they then married later. But when men were a lack, so to speak, they were already so early enough, as early as possible, a woman was secured. So from 12 years ago it started, if it was really crazy. And I really thought that was really helpful, that it wasn't always like that, and the whole thousands of years went by, but that it was always like this wave and phase. That helped me to sort that out. Yes, of course. And of course, I know that too, but when you think about it here, that they weren't all that young, and there were also singles back then, that's not even the point. The point is that we all will see that it was fundamentally different back then. There was often no voluntary love marriage. There was often not even this idea of a equal relationship with eyes, that happened in the opposite love and respect. That simply didn't exist. It was, of course, often as a tendency, much earlier than today. Of course, because back then, you actually grew up with 13 years. There was also not in that sense, that you somehow go to school with up to 18 and then study for six years again. And then you start to earn money slowly and then save the money with 35 to make it more time. Well, now you can of course say, "Yeah, what the hell is this expensive time? Take a common room and do it next week." Yes, but then the question is, do you really achieve anything with it? Do you achieve a goal? Now you've got the hard part, which is religious. But that's the point. That's basically another situation, like in most areas of life. And that's why the Bible can't be taken as a lesson, but it needs this hermeneutical intermediate step of reflection. What does that mean now? What is the core of all this? What is it really about? That your love for your fellow human being can only be lived if you have signed a legal contract. Is God really about that? Is God the super mega official who needs the contract so that he can be happy? What does God even have to do with it? And why is it in the core now? And I think it's in the core about a respectful, respectful, connected relationship to the eye level in which every dimension of my being, the spiritual, spiritual and physical in the same way can occur. And that's why it's never good to say that we can be spiritual and spiritual for two years, but physically forbidden. It's exactly like we are galloping with the physical miles ahead and we don't know what that means. That's both. But this balance, this all-time lived and that's what fascinates me for example about the entire Old Testament book "The Higher Song" where it's all the time about a passionate, lived love outside of a social convention before marriage and where it means you are the one who loves my soul. By the way, this is a soul here that is a bit more Latin. I love you so much inside the soul but the core, the passion is not even the difference between soul and body but the soul itself is already ugly when I love my soul that's about it when I say you are the one I love so much with my whole being I want to get close to you I want to be one with you you are the one who loves my soul that's the whole desire that's about it a whole Bible book I would like to hear more about it in youth free time we are dealing with the sexual ethic the higher love a whole book in the Bible it's really exciting how do you feel about it? I mean, again I'm getting a bit close, maybe we can solve it you just said it's not a real love marriage or a relationship to the present time culturally a lot of people got married to secure the heirloom and so on but there is the higher love which speaks of this passionate love so there were love marriages between you that was the exception because I think it's really remarkable that the higher love was even made in the Bible exactly that's the big question why is this higher love even in the Bible and of course now people can come and say here it is arranged there is a love marriage and there is also an application in the Bible where people really love each other but the point is primarily it's not that nowadays in our broadening we don't have to say in our broadening it's very, very strange even from the most conservative purity culture community you won't hear we're making a forced marriage out of family and political reasons there is no such thing so the rule is today love marriage the rule at the time was of course not love marriage love marriage first developed for a few hundred years so you get the idea of love like this whole romantic and so on so there was probably a union so now the point is the higher love is currently suffering under this social convention of the time and the higher love speaks of the longing of two lovers who want to go all the way but can't often because for example the lover often says to the beloved my sister, my bride so it's not meant that it's not really understandable they're married, yet they're sister but it's supposed to express a very deep belonging and no, as if we were sisters we're very close I wish you were my sister I wish you were my bride because then we could hold hands on the street but we can't we have to do everything secretly we always said let's go out to the fields and there we want to give each other our love so go out back then the private fairs not in the house where there were 12 other big brothers in one room and a few more but back then the private fairs were out on the field let's go out to the field where no one is disturbing us and give us our love so that's clear also after sex, after passion after intimacy, after body the whole high-level song I don't want to talk about it but the high-level song is a the most erotic I wouldn't say pornographic because that's a completely wrong word but it's full it's so full of physical erotic and passion the whole time the woman says let your palm grow now everyone can think about what you can understand and I think you understand it intuitively right or the man says I want to go out tonight to the peacocks the peacock what would that be? the Venus peacock, the woman the woman, the duck palm your lips are like a crack of a granade apple under your lips under your tongue is honey intense kiss it's even more crazy that I'm just doing the harmless or it means your eyes are like pigeons there is old oriental education where the pigeons the love boat is that means your eyes are so erotic your eyes attract me it's fully erotic it's totally alive the lover says I'm sick of love you attract me the lover says you are the one who is my soul my passion, my desire my whole neighborhood so what we have here in Hohe Lieb is a whole book not just a fair a whole book speaks from a social convention from a totally alive longing for love it's not just a physical one as it's called it's the tip of the pyramid but as an essential fundamental dimension that is very important and then the interesting thing is in this love it becomes in some way God is in it God comes in the whole Hohe Lieb and when he comes I don't know if it's clear because there is no "yes" it can also be superlative in the description it's superlative but in Hohe Lieb 8 it's called strong as death is love hard as the underworld, the suffering their gluten is fire gluten a flame, yes powerful water are not in the situation to extinguish the love the currents don't swim and so on and that's very interesting because love is the death love is strong as death not even a powerful water can extinguish the suffering you can try to forbid your "Priority Culture" you can forbid it to pull it together love becomes when it really is love and it hasn't been completely stolen from this false morality you can't press the love down and stop the suffering against every convention not only a powerful interhuman love but also the power of God that appears in every true love so that's strange I'm a fan of the Hohe Lieb because there is nothing there is no false morality no convention no strict laws it's really about that that's what you want that's what you are willing to give to others and to accept that's the right thing and funny way it's called Hohe Lieb 3 times that's actually the choir that always comes your Töchter Jerusalem where do we have it it's called a choir in Hohe Lieb Hohe Lieb is a collection of different songs and every Töchter Jerusalem doesn't wake up doesn't fall on the love before it falls on its own doesn't fall on the love yes and that's exactly it so all the preachers who are always sex or marriage are bad preachers and mix themselves in the beds of the adults and the marriage couples here Hohe Lieb 3 times if you get an impression from God Hohe Lieb 3 times would be nice to say don't wake up and don't fall on the love before it falls on its own don't want to get into the bedroom with your over me and let the people on a good, organic way get closer out on the field get rid of dattel palms and kiss your tongue and whatever is in Hohe Lieb don't wake up and don't fall on the love until it falls on its own and that's why Hohe Lieb 3 times shows that there is an alternative there is an alternative from the church who is looking for a sign through a signed contract and an unanswered I go through all night clubs without thinking about what I am doing to the other one I already have a match and since these two alternatives there is Hohe Lieb here is really from a passionate full-time love that is even more passionate than a sign that rages through the night clubs it's even more passionate but it's even more connected and more love-filled than any sign what we read here in Hohe Lieb the message of Hohe Lieb doesn't sound like "no sex without marriage" but "no sex without love" without real love for each other who sees and loves the other and takes it in Hohe Lieb again and again that the man to the woman to the man says "all about you is beautiful" "all about you is encouraging" so to speak "I love you as a whole" "as a whole being" that's exactly what we find here a deep connection a deep love and at the same time a great passion and that's what I want to say an exclusively lived marriage shouldn't be a limit for passionate love but a field of full development here it should be at least as passionate as the two of us of course who are in a relationship outside of this exclusive connection and that's why I think the Hohe Lieb it's not about a contract, but it's about this love, which can't stand love and tears and self-powerful water that sounds as if you are very aware and attentive actually that she actually takes it seriously how she really meant it when you think about the term marriage that's a high time so where when you discover that or where the love maybe has its high point so it doesn't mean that it ends that the high point should be a plateau maybe it also depends on our terms I would be very curious where words come from why did you take this term I think it's totally inspiring so thank you for that I saw it to confirm that I saw it in a divorce seminar not because I was affected when I was online and I was able to host it so I was still listening to it and I was shocked I was shocked why people can sit there and two very young people really affected me that was once a too early marriage because of that we can finally have sex, so we get married and all these steps were completely lost completely I was at the Bible school and they were forced to go there exactly and the second one that affected me was a young man who explained that he was also forced to go there how the circumstances were I don't know I don't think he was attractive and that gave me so much thought so please please go around with it really carefully and that's what you said explained a good explanation a real explanation about the not only physical but also step by step the level of intimacy that you take the responsibility for it and that you also search for this input and buy books or a seminar that you really sit in the depth of course both in the ideal case part 3 what experiences do you have in the Bible texts to marriage and sexuality are there places that you find difficult or that you have opened a new access [music] and I think you have to tell the people you don't need to be afraid of your feelings of your passion and your life he often shows more truth than your head or your close limits or your close documents that's the interesting that the Christian faith had to take into account his unfaithfulness it's always about the suffering so we believe in a God who is suffering, who has become flesh the evening is the suffering not the soul then it's from the rise of the suffering it's always about the suffering I'm not asking how could it come, of course you can answer that but also through Augustinus and others but how could it come that these suffering dimensions were pushed into the corner the British Bible places any feelings in the organs the stomach is not the seat, the chest where the evil flesh and the chest are carried out but the stomach is the place where the heart is especially the mother of birth in Anklan this feeling this feeling of the stomach there is nothing to say the alternative doesn't sound everything that I feel I have to bow to it I don't want to stand up I just stay lying all day the alternative is not just to say I fuck everything that I feel that's what I said not to follow the heart but the alternative is to get to know yourself so well your feeling and experience to get to know your pattern to get to know yourself to decide what is actually my wish behind it we often have a feeling that says no but from a certain fear and dynamic we actually want to say yes or the other way around and there is this purity culture this "no sex for the ear" doesn't go this way but just says that everything is bad and suspicious and then I really want every single wish with children, young people and so on this own sensibility the own discovery of the passion of the passion and what is really happening to you to feel that with the deep expectation also in it maybe right in it I also encounter God and His will I think that God has put us in the heart that is the realization of all the theologians the self-awareness the God-awareness that means your spirituality your theology and also your sexual ethics I had to lead you closer to your own heart when you are close to God but if you are always far away from Him the shyness, the tornness, the indian still makes you happy then the big question is if it is really about a healthy spirituality that has the true God in front of you or if it is not much more about a fear-absorbing security ethic that brings the lack of a matter to the reflection of the rightful user and actually has an over me instead of God a focus Yes, thank you Martin so you also notice that you are self-aware let's get to the end at the end maybe there is the next book that you can talk about yourself really really good so it was so so much now and I hope that it inspires and above all that it is to think about it to think about it yourself what do I actually want Yes it was a lot, a lot so many, many thanks Martin for your time your thoughts about it your research and think about it really well Yes and if you love to listen to the topic continue to deal with it look at the show notes I also link the books of Martin Thomas, his website of course our seminars also on the topic of sexuality and I invite you to write your thoughts about it very concrete questions you can do that in the Signal Group or on social media as always via an e-mail you have several possibilities and of course that interests me a lot and what interests me what would you wish for a healthy and honest sexual ethics in your community or in your environment, circle wherever you are that interests me so I almost again love, trust and physicality really belong together maybe more than we actually think Yes, that's how it is Amen so thank you Martin for your time and I wish you all the best, all the best for your wedding Yes and I'm curious also on the book you have already written it and you have done a great job maybe you can hear something so there is nothing planned but I thought to do something about the high elite but it is not yet in view now there are some other projects I can imagine that Yes, thank you very much and I say goodbye until next time we are happy to contact you just write us an email at [email protected] and if you want to know which seminars and activities TEAM F for Singles couples and families visit the website www.team-f.de and now we just have to say goodbye and see you next time www.teamf.de