#17 - The market is going to completely change

(upbeat music) - Welcome to Nectar's Conversation Journeys. We travel to or invite the moors and shakers of the mobility, energy, and climate ecosystem. Please send in and enjoy the talks. - So hello everyone, this is special episode for me, because I'm literally honored to have one of the veterans of the mobility ecosystem today in our Nectar Conversations. And that's Barak, Barak Sus. I've been following your activities for a while, and they're very, they're very broad, and I really perceive you one of the, I would call it the wizards, 'cause you're a little bit everywhere at the same time. - Thank you. - And yeah, I'm honored to have you in the call. Today in the Nectar Conversations, I would just start very simply by giving you your opportunity at the stage to just talk about yourself and let your audience know who you are and what's driving you. - So thank you for that introduction. It's an honor to be here. Barak, I've been a veteran transportation for over 10 years now. I have set up as an employee for different companies in vehicle import, public transportation, mobility technology companies, in a career that started from finance went on to operations, and then less positions in commercial and strategic roles. In two years ago, I founded Mobility Business, which is my consultancy. I focused on strategic roles, so let's go to market, business plan, market competitive analysis, by side M&A. The planning side also, the hands on, I'm working with Schofel Ride Hating Company to launch international expansion, Mobility Business Service, wireless challenging, very sticky theme, so very broad, as you said, in the Mobility Landscape. And I also have moving people with e-mail newsletter, which I started, I think almost five years ago, and I started the hobby. The first edition was sent in a world document from a fellow co-author of Envilo. And they said, "This is nice, you should put it on LinkedIn." I'm like, "Fine, I'll put it on LinkedIn." And this is how it was started. - Yes, yes. - And it all snowballed from there. It's interesting how there was a lot of things that get kind of a leading start, small, but they usually start because of a passion, of some of that, you just have to do it, because it's, I don't know, you ought to do it. It's really fun. But with your super broad overview, what is the most, let me put like that, what is for you the most intriguing development that you see on a macro level when it comes to mobility? - So mobility is experience a tough time. One, because of the general macroeconomic conditions, which have been around for two or three years, and two, because in many cases, not all, but in many cases, there were a bit of overall pharmacists in our industry and under the delivery. And I think that's, that's most to fix right now because of consolidations. The most recent one is lift and free now. And also the ability to reach profitability, which we see with VR and the IPO, and we see with void that I have that want to IPO. So that's, that's most to fix. But if you look at the funding landscape, then other than AI, everything is autonomous. And I think that if you look at mobility today, you pretty much, whether it's the delivery robots, trucks, cars, buses, it's all about autonomy and the opportunities in both autonomy and color driving. - Yeah, and it is actually a really, that reflect very well with that same my perception. We recently sent out the investor newsletter, and it was titled Mobility is Back. And it's funny because if you take a look at the Harkner-Gabbside, Gartner-Harkner-Hyp cycle, autonomous was already there. I was already here, right? Like you remember it, it was 2014, 15, 16, GM with cruise and all those activities there, which was very, very much on the hardware side and mobile I've been leading, etc, etc. So this was already a big topic at that point in time. A lot of attention and capital going in there. They didn't get a bit of quiet. And I think now we're in the face of actually where we see those first real world deployments, which I find personally very, very fascinating because it is stage two of the development in my point of view, where stage one is okay, you get to be equal to be able to drive safely from A to B, but then it's about the running fleets, right? And the operational challenges that go hand in hand with running hundreds or thousands of vehicles, and that's stage two for me in this whole story line. But I wasn't a board advisory board meeting recently and we had one slide where we were like the thesis was and this was a very strong debate and I would like to hear your perspective on it part. That ultimately what we call car sharing now and what we car hailing will over time be more or less fully consumed by autonomous, right? Or to a vast majority, maybe not fully because of the white man-to-use cases or the question that makes sense. But what's your take on that? That's question number one and question number two, what's the time angle that you see for that to happen? So I agree with you, the more vehicles become autonomous, and that's the time question in a second, but the more vehicles become autonomous, the more they become generic assets in a way. And you can see it both by the fact that when we talk about autonomous, we don't we talk about way more and Uber and Leaf and Wave, mobile life. But we never talk about Hyundai or Jaguar or I mean those are lost in the conversation. So that's the generic power to fit and think OEMs, we need to differentiate themselves and there is opportunity in cabin opportunity. But essentially if it is an asset, then it can be rented for days and weeks and months and it doesn't really matter. And then one software in a sense could just create the entire demand funnel. So you could theoretically, and I think Uber are aiming for it today with battleship between two or a quarter of us. You could say, "I want a car from here today." "Oh I want a car for weeks or I want a car for X amount of time." And we are going towards the future where you have these assets, the fleet management is gonna be terribly important, both in how you balance them out and how you maintain them and how you make sure you've got the right vehicles for the right possible demand. So there's gonna be a lot of challenges over there. But I think yes, there is going to be a consolidation in a way that timeline, Cramp did an interesting thing. He's fed up innovation globally. So he definitely sped it up in the US, but I think also Europe got a wake up call in a sense. And you see the UK speeding up autonomous. We are ready to all get in ready to all autonomous vehicles in mid-2026 in Germany, just above tele-driving bill. We will see in Christian innovation. I think it will be sooner in the US than it will be in Europe and it will be sooner in the East than it will be in Europe as well, in the Gulf States. I think if we had this conversation, you know, 2030, then every tier one city would have some kind of either commercial or advanced pilots going on. And this resonates very well with me. It was interesting what you said. Could have been my line of strategy when it's about the role of Europe in all of this. 'Cause I think I really said, please don't quote me, but I really said Europe will be last in this game. And we are at the brink of being, let's say the passive consumers of what others build for us and design for us. But it's happening as we can see right now, I mean those first log scale deployment, real deployments are happening in the US. Asia's next on Asia in general, but specifically markets in Asia, right? And then yes, most likely also because of the very rigid regulatory framework in Europe, it will trickle into Europe when all those players see that it finally makes sense to do that. The challenge that I see is like being a European company, we perceive ourselves to be a European company as such, right? We have business in America as well, but the DNA of it to be able to still contribute to that growing ecosystem, right? Because the mindset, how do I put it? What I see also is the mindset is in Europe is very defensive and reactive and it's not necessarily helpful. But just to reflect on what you said. - No, I agree with you, I agree with you, I mean it's, so yes, Europe is slower and you see it also in the funding. So it's much easier for companies to go to the US and get funded. And then that obviously is a big help when you start and you set up a company. We will probably, we as in Europe, we will probably be behind in terms of adoption, so we're obviously behind China, Japan, South Korea, when we talk about East. Gold states, you know, all of Dubai, all of our new technologies in the US are the question. I think the reverse, no, the reverse, but the other question is, okay. So maybe our regulator will take a bit more time, but let's make sure that our companies are ready. So that vibe and wave and yourself and others, they have the capital needed and they have the expertise needed to be able to skate because even if it would come to Europe in a two or three year delay, we will have the local technologies here and I think it's super, super important. And I think that this actually is a call for investors and governments to encourage investments by, you know, gate index benefits or whatever not, but to be able to encourage investment in European companies for them to be successful globally. - And to also, if I may add to what you just said and to also enable companies being active there to have a, let's say, a sandbox, also from a regulatory point of view, right? To trial things and to try things out and develop things and be not suffocated by that rigid regulatory framework, which yes, it makes sense to have in place, but not if you're just, if you're in development phase. So I agree with that. We're actually now with what we're doing as a company, we're bringing efficiency to fleets, right? We optimize feet in terms of utilization of cost in terms of human economics in various ways. This is re-burning, this is charging, this is deep optimization, et cetera, et cetera. And what we see there is that Europe actually has some advantage when it comes to, let's say, large-scale EV fleets and those being managed, because Europe was first, the guess of different motivation wasn't necessarily a financial economic one. But there is a certain advantage in experience that yes, we can take and transport into other markets that are more advanced when it comes to, for example, autonomous vehicles, right? So those two things can definitely match on anything. US got way more attention now for us as well, which is interesting, giving the general macroeconomic landscape, but that's for sure too. I think one thing that you said, and I wanna pick up on that if you're okay, is more of a, you call it an asset, right? And that asset needs to be managed by somehow, so I take a car for a ride, I take a car for a weekend, for a month, for a year. And I wanna be flexible, my patterns, I don't know, I just got another kid, I need to pick a car, but I need that car maybe just for three years, not for longer, so whatever. I wanna go on to a ski trip into the up, so I need a big one, because I need all the pack or the stuff in there. So very, very situative in terms of behavior and demand coming from that behavior. How much does that call for usership driven business models, and offerings towards ownership driven ones? And I know this is highly debated, and specifically how to put it in there, different camps on this question. There is ownership is still culturally strong in that. I think in the mindset of people in the DNA, at the same time, when I see my kids growing up, that mindset is no longer there. It's with this, with the next generation, it's gonna be very much different. So what should we take for? - So I start with an anecdote. I told, I was at an autonomous event, a couple of months ago, here in London, and I told my little girl, seven year old, the other, I am going to this autonomous event. And the cars with our driver, and she looks at me and like, he doesn't understand why it is special. And I'm like, okay, fine. I'll start just a second with illustrating the, I think the advantages, and then I'll share in, for example, and then I'll go over to ownership, but I mean, if you think about car sharing, and what car sharing and, you know, sharing rental, there'll be pretty much the same thing in the future, but if you look at the car sharing, and just tele-driving, or autonomous, and what that can happen, the market is going to, to completely change in that respect, because the customer experience is totally different. You no longer have to look where the nearest car is to you, walk over to that car. No, no, no, no, it will be, it will be to your doors. That's an amazing customer experience. Well, that it's tele-driven, or autonomous, that's, that's happening in Las Vegas, and you know, that's amazing. And also, you will be able to prerequisite, I need a babysit, and then somebody will fit a babysit in the logistic center. It is something, and you know, babysit is a talent for our people. And it's something that isn't available today, and will be available in the future. So the easiness and the comfort level, with autonomous or with self-driven cars, is amazing in the respect of what it will do for the men. But it also has a lot of operational benefits, because you no longer need to look for parking. You can move away the cars from places with high vandalism. So there are a lot of opportunities that will translate into lower cost, that will translate into more demand. So you see more, you will see more more demand. Will people decide to give up their car altogether? I am on the camp that says, probably not, we still see car ownership. We'll probably see less car ownership, and probably see less car ownership in cities, just because of, you know, what I illustrated right now about how better or how more efficient the future is going to look like. But I do think that OEMs will try to push the vehicles, so we'll see them with new marketing tactics. Cars will still remain a status symbol. People will still like their own thing with their magazines and water bottles and whatever not. So I think we will see some sort of car ownership. That car ownership would look a bit different because you will be able to rent out your car when you're not using it. So the entire, how does ownership look like? Is going to be different. People will buy a car, probably not just fleets, but ownership would be totally different from what it is today. - Yes. - What was your, what's about? What do you think? - No. - The transcendence extremely well with me, but the, so number one, I think the differentiation between cities and rural areas. Let's not forget a lot of continents. It's not, they're not just cities, right? There are a lot of rural areas and those need to be served as well. And those will be served last when it comes to even the autonomous technology because it's complex to do that. Number one, end expensive. Number two, the cost of ownership is gonna skyrocket. If you live in a city center. - Yeah. - In almost all metropolitan of this world. This is just gonna, it's gonna be a luxury to own a car in parking in front of your house waiting for you all the time, right? So what is now maybe perceived as a standard is gonna be very, very costly at some point. And cities also don't want cars. Like they don't want the number of cars there, right? We have the city tolls coming in, like they really try to move those out here in Vienna where we based clearly in 20 years in the inner circle of the city. There's no, no, no, given exceptions, but there's no real ownership happening. So I think this will drive, this will drive towards usership models clearly. At the same time, I also do it with me. There are a lot of use cases and the situative patterns of consumers where an ownership heavy kind of set of mix more sets, totally agree. So I don't think it's exclusive. What I do see happening is a large shift of vehicles that will be, let's say, managed by someone else and not necessarily the person that owns the asset, right? And you were talking about already, it's like the economies of scale that a highly efficient operational framework can provide managing not on car, but managing thousand cars is a completely different game. And I think this is also driving, let's say, our strategic development as a company to think about all those dimensions that will, where we are able to leverage the economies of scale, for all those feeds out there who run and manage those high number of vehicles. 'Cause eventually, and I think this is, I heard we agree on this one, the number of vehicles managed not by the family father, taking care of the car, but by someone else, maintenance, tire change, you name it, right? Cleaning, asset for set, someone else to care for them, happy to pay for it, in what about form? I think we're in agreement of this one, is that right? - Yeah, I mean, there are, you know, fleets have, you mentioned it, fleets have solutions for cleaning and tire change, et cetera. I'll come into them. It doesn't exist for private ownership, but it can, if the app is synchronized anyway to the fleet, so yes, that will happen. I think the real disruption, by the way, is with traditional car rental companies of health enterprise seats. They will see tremendous change. I'm not, they might benefit from it, because today they have a lot of real estate, which probably won't be needed, and they do have the expertise in managing loud fleets. They, I don't come, the big winners or the big losers, and it really depends, so a lot of companies there. But this is a huge, huge opportunity for them in terms of sustainability model, gives its model. - Yes, yes, I couldn't agree more, but I couldn't want you to sit there. And I see the huge differentiator in being a winner or a loser, if you may take your picture, is the level of digitalization, that companies are willing to embrace, already at that point in time, right? There are still so many companies out there where the assets are down the assets, in terms of they are not connected at all, right? How can you efficiently manage something if it's not a digital asset, right? It's really, really hard, I mean, at scale. Because this means we have gained a process around it, it needs to be human driven, and it cannot be automated, or driven by algorithms, and that level of efficiency that will be required means that a lot of those decision processes that are currently taken by like local fleet managers, then they do, I know my city, and I've one of the put 50 cars here, and we tell them, let's take them away there and so on, so on, these needs to be automated, and provided by technology, you know, today. To do that at scale. And that's gonna be the differentiator. And I think the differentiator, and again, the driver for a company being on the losers side or on the winners side. - I couldn't agree, you know, 100%. Those companies need to be, to turn themselves into tech companies, so the fleet management has to be the best possible, the demand for us needs to be the best possible, everything needs to be the best based on data, otherwise, yeah, they won't find themselves winners. - Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then, when I find, when I find shocking sometimes, and I hope no one takes it personally, but I find shocking, like when I sometimes talk to OEMs, and when I talk about plans for connectivity, so out of the box connectivity auto vehicles, and they hear like 20, 30 something, it's like, oh my God, you're losing out of opportunity here. Because you could be the first who could have all those add-on services on top of the vehicle, right? Enabled by connectivity, which is a needed enabling a lot of cases. But yeah, I think where I still have to be patients, I guess. What's your take? - I think that the, I think OEMs haven't found out how to monetize connectivity yet. I think that the market should push for it more, because the market will benefit from connectivity quite a lot. If you think of the classic OEM model, and they are, you know, it's troubling time for OEMs right now for the better basic. If I make a car, I sell a car, I sell parts. It's pretty much, pretty much it. And some importable distributor, he takes it from them. I haven't seen almost anywhere, maybe except China, where a direct consumer model is working. So let's see if they decide. In that respect, I can sort of understand why they haven't been able to monetize on connectivity. But the market can benefit so much. So leap management companies can benefit so much from it, then they can use it to generate more profits. And I'm an OEM, I would get into serious discussions with the different distributors that I have and the ecosystem and say, okay, what do you actually need? And what will make you buy my car? And not somebody else's car. - Yeah, that's a good one. That's an interesting one. Going back to the autonomous field, 'cause I see currently something happening that when I first realized it, it really puzzled me. I was like, why? But maybe you have given it more thought. So what I see now happening in the US with the EV fleets being rolled out, let's take way more some example. Waymo is partnering up with companies actually operating fleets, right? Let's move on the one hand side and there's Uber in some respects operating in other markets. And I hear there's maybe a third player in different markets. So I was like, okay, why do they outsource that and why do they kind of risk to have different level of quality in operations because they run the different companies and stuff like that? I do understand from other, let's say, other industries that it sometimes makes sense to decouple the operations side from the brands. Let's put it in maybe the technology generation part. For example, in aerospace, if you take an airport, right? It's not the airlines taking care of the ground operations, like meals, cleaning, better that. There are specialized companies that use the economies of scale because they do it for 20 airlines. On, I don't know, ski pole airport in the Netherlands. But do you have maybe more insights on why this is happening? - So if you look at, yes, this is something that I talk about extensively. So you look at the value chain pretty much the first stage, the OEM, then the maintenance, the operational management of the car, of the vehicle, then you have the tech, which is today it's built on cars after they leave the factory but in the future it will come together and then you have the consumer side, so whatever, and I figured it. Let's take Waymo and lift. Let's do examples. So Waymo, they decided that they want to be a tech company. They're on that value chain that I described. They want to be a tech company and they don't really care who does the operations, that they don't want to be involved in it and they will leave it to companies such as enterprise or move, et cetera. And then on the demand side, they're working with Uber, but they're also having their own operations. So they're still sort of not sure what's the best way, but they do know that they don't really want to deal with operations. When you lift, for example, lift has a subsidiary called Flex Drive, that company manages 15,000 vehicles. Yes. They pride themselves on that. I mean, they pride themselves. So obviously, normal vehicles, they pride themselves of being able to manage those car efficiently, one, you know, getting revenue, they list them out to gig drivers, but that's one revenue, but it also allows you to be able to assure supply. So if I'm looking at the company such as Bleef, I definitely see them all involved in the sleek management side of it. And I think it's a little judgment call. Who am I? Am I just the demand generation? Am I just the empty books from? And the customer care, et cetera, but the demand side of it? Or do I go to supply side? And I think that's going to be interesting to see who takes what position in that body chain? Yes. And I think at the moment, it's more companies are searching for the right combination of building blocks, also which are service blocks, they are willing to cover, right? And experimenting at the moment with those pilot deployments in the various cities and learning from that. What I find interesting because I've been in conversation with some of those companies, specifically dealing with the operations side, a lot of the challenges that you're currently trying to solve in the deployments in, I don't know, West Coast, US, are very similar to the problems that have been solved by, for example, Cartesian companies in Europe a couple of years ago, because they were confronted with, I need to run 800 EVs, efficiently in a city, right? So I need to get them charged. I, and so on, so on, so on. So it's really interesting that some of those challenges like it's a little bit history repeating when it comes to the, to that notion. Yeah. I think that, by the way, on that, I mean, if, if, if I'm building an autonomous company, obviously what I'm focusing on is autonomous technology. And then the fleet management side, you know, it's not a core of what I'm developing. And let's say it's maybe more boring than developing autonomous technology. And so that gets kind of left behind. You see in a lot of companies, they develop for customers, but they don't always develop for themselves. I think that's what I mean. I think there's a huge opportunity for those companies that you've just mentioned, to ramp up on the fleet management capability, learning from, you know, software houses, companies such as yourself, and the experience that large culture in companies have, you know, such a zip code in the UF, but, you know, miles in Germany and whatever not companies in Europe. Absolutely. Do you, is this, is this game a game of giants? Is this gonna be a game of giants at the end of the day? - A game of giants? - Of giants, yeah. Or is it, is it an end of the day like size that will matter, maybe not most, but a lot? - I'm going back to your analysis on city development school. Yeah, if it would be a game of giants, but the same way that you have, that you don't have Uber in small places, there will be a opportunity for SME to manage autonomous flips in rural areas. So, there will be a mix, but yet it will be a game of giants. The same way it is today with, you know, with enterprise and seeks and health, like control the market in a way, it will still be a game of giants. - Even, even maybe more so with economies of scale. - Yes, that's what I'm, that's what I'm aiming at. Like having access to a certain, being able to, to, to utilize economies of scale, requiring a certain size. Also from a, from a finance point of view, right? For example, move, I think recently announced that they're raising two billion dollars, not, not equity necessarily, but for financing the vehicles for the feeds. So these is significant numbers we're talking, right? - Yeah, yeah. - And you know, you know, usually when we speak about autonomous, we focus on cars, but the logistics industry, the clocking industry, there's a bit behind, they have different challenges and efficiency is at the heart of what they do. Anyway. - Yeah. - So they, they're, they're a segment that's gonna need to even after a game on that, buses and buses are also behind, quite behind, but then you open up a new world of how you manage public transportation on a, thinking eyes level, something you don't have to date. So I mean, to look at the entire landscape, and it is because of our much more sexy and much more interesting to talk about, but caused the board on any kind of vehicles that's huge opportunities. - And I actually agree with, when it comes to trucks and commercial vehicles, because they're, every minute is worth typically quite a substantial amount of money. And this is where efficiency can really, really kick in, right, which as a private user, you don't want me to care that much, but in its scale of trucks, and also how to put it, when it comes to trucks specifically, the typical use cases, you see the complexity of driving a highway for 800 miles is, is maybe different than my parents driving around Google Austria, right? - Yeah. - So I couldn't, I couldn't agree more, whereas the focus, of course, of millions, of this very much on the consumer side on that. But are you okay to play a little game with me? Because this is the question. So I asked, I have two questions I always ask, ask my, my partners in the conversations. And the first one is a game that imagine, I put the two of us into a time capsule, and I put that I zoom us into the year 2035, so 10 years from now, and from that position of 2035, we take a look back to two of us in the now, right? What advice would you give to two of us from the position of 2035? - Well, it's a problem because I think you're doing the right thing. I think you're focusing on it, I think it would be about how you enable more synergies, both on the demand side and the fleet management side, and how you use AI tools to make sense of the enormous data sets that you are going to have and the thing that probably that would go again with a giant bunch, there's a huge, huge, huge opportunity. Okay. So I hear in a sense, continue what you're doing, and just put all the, all you can behind it, right? - Yeah, no, I think, you know, your solution, and you know, I'm not here to play your solution, but I think it makes sense, making sure that the plates are synchronized and as efficient as possible. One for the demand side, and on the supply side, is something that would be needed more and more as we move into autonomous. - Yeah, exactly. - At the moment, it's how to put it. At the moment, it's an add-on, right? But when you talk autonomous, it's inherent. It's part of the organism that needs to be. - You can't, you can't do it without. - The question is, by the way, that's the question you asked before is time. I think that in 2035, especially in the US and again, gold states and other parts, we are going to sit here, one seat is full of autonomous cars. The rest, less so, but, you know, in 2045, that'll be different. - Yes, exactly. And then we'll also know a lot more about, 'cause trickling down into on a global scale, this is gonna take a long time. But if you take a look at the advent of the car as a vehicle on a global scale, there was decades and decades and decades, right? It's just, it's just too tight. That's what it is. All right, perfect. So this was the first one. The second one is a tricky one. I hope you're okay with me asking that. So, what question would you give me, which I should post to my next interview partner? Not knowing where it is, but just, maybe something that you'd like to provoke someone with. It's something that I also asked. So I have a serious pinter with on my newsletter that there were interview startups. It's not a podcast, it's a written text, but one of the final questions going into your question, but one of my questions is, how do you see the difference between Europe and the US? And when you speak to startup, because if you were startup and you need this, I really wanna go. Again, Europe is a very big world. There's no one, Europe. No, we know that there's a lot of different countries and cultures. But that would be the, how do you see Europe against the US and how does Europe make sure that it creates a market? Single market, in a way. And you know, on the one hand, I might not be in the position to fail that, but how do you create a single market in terms of regulation and ease of doing business? Also on a cultural level, to allow Europe to become a much more place to make business. - Okay, very happy to take that into the next conversation, to reflect my very personal view. It will require change at the level that is fundamental. Because it's cultural change that's also a little bit required and they will take a lot of time. And I fear, 'cause a lot of cultural change is driven by, unfortunately, pain or painful experiences. Or by really fear of being left out and stuff like. So I think some dramatic things, but might have to happen before things get moving and there is more. There are people understand that the advantage of being united, not always, but for the purpose is the better way to go. But yeah, I guess that's a wish. When it comes to Europe versus America, yes, of course, it's totally different. When it comes to cultural stuff, like I mean, our very first customer was US based, by the way. The very, very first customer was US based. Why? Because they are more willing to take risk. - Yes, they won't accept it, yes. - They won't accept it. And they, there is no immediate resistance to tech, right? There is tech, they see there's an opportunity, which needs to be validated. It can be validated positively or negatively, but without validation, I don't know nothing, right? So let's validate and then decide. And that gave us the chance, the opportunity to deploy this very first thought that we had in terms of valid generations. And yeah, it was validated in a positive way. And then it was a strong signal for us to develop further and invest, right? And this proved to be the business case for us as a company. In Europe, way more difficult because the people that we were talking to, they had their fixed opinion already about how things work, and less open about being surprised, about actually didn't consider that, but still, right? It's a little better. So that's a mechanism that I find that I found very interesting and it was also funnily enough once we had that customer in US, right? It was way easier to get a customer in Europe because like, wow, you think this is a nice one, right? - Of course, of course. - Yeah, that's what it is. At the essence, what's your take on this one? - It is a lot of cultural. It is a lot of cultural. I mean, I worked in the bus industry for a while and it was in Zelo and we did commute. So, digital commute, how do you, how do you make commute much more efficient using a digital tool, either a private rep and only sold in the UK, but the UK company, the sold in the UK. And I let go to market to the US. Regarding the discussions with people in the US, they were like, yeah, it's interesting. Let's try to technology, which was a completely different story and then you went to supply to the bus operators and they were much more tech savvy and they were much more willing to listen, so they didn't mean that they'll buy eventually or that they need it or find the willing to hear. And I think that that, when we talk about change and government's key, I can change the thing that innovation and tech saving is and whatever you want to call it, I think we need to improve on that. And I think that also it will be derived from pain, probably. - We see how to hide it. - Well, that's a sad, I don't know. It's a sad recognition for myself, right? To say that at the same time taking a look at history that sometimes what's just what it is. But let's find out. I truly enjoy changing those ideas with you, Barak. And I feel that when it comes to that, we might even be in the same boat. So being the driving forces of that change is a very intriguing thought that I have. Thank you so much for this conversation. It's been a real pleasure and I wouldn't call it like mine, but the exchange of thoughts and ideas and I learned a lot from this conversation. So thank you very much. - Thank you for having me and also really enjoyed it and also learned a lot. Thank you. - You're wonderful. - Then best of luck. I'm curious to learn what our kids, your daughter is seven, mine is nine, right? What like in 30 years, they will talk about what we did at that time, but that's another discussion. Thank you, Barak. - Thank you, bye. - Thanks for listening to Lecture's Conversation Journeys. Subscribe and tune in again next time.