#164: Why Bodybuilders Binge

[Music] So dear listeners, I hope you have been binge listening to all of the 3D MJ podcast episodes and you're probably wondering why I use that choice of words. And it's because it's the perfect segue to discuss something we say a lot but that we don't actually know what we're saying when it comes to the clinical definition. So to technically, now correct me if I'm wrong here, Amanda, because just for those who don't know, I'm on with the Mental Health Specialist, Amanda Rizzo, and also Alberta Nignis. If I was to technically binge listen to all of the 3D MJ episodes, it would happen probably on two times speed. I'd feel guilty about it afterwards. And I wouldn't actually have wanted to listen to as many episodes as I did, which you say that's an accurate description of binge listening to the 3D MJ podcast. I would say that's fairly close and then you would also experience a lack or loss of control. So like I just can't stop listening to the process. It would be uncontrollable. Man, now if I was, if I had a binge listening disorder, BLD for short, would that be like multiple times in a month that I had these episodes of listening to the 3D MJ podcast where I felt the loss of control. I had feelings of shame two times speed fashion. I don't know if I listened to a podcast. Is that accurate? Correct. Okay. On my next book here, but I think eight a day of these is perfectly fine. That's a good balance for you, Brenda. I think that's what we should make the cut off. Anything, anything under that is still okay. Plus, plus burdo, no one's going to feel shame or guilt, you know. And you don't want to listen to this on two times speed because Brad's laughs, they sound so much better on one type of speed. They don't have the right tone. Like if you really want to hear that. That needs to be in a one time speed. You'd have to fully appreciate. Yeah, you need one times be maybe 1.25. Absolutely. All the Loomis laughs will be marked in time stamps on episodes. He's on from now on. That's been our major request on the podcast. So yeah, burdo, I'm actually a kick it over to you. Like how often do you fizzy competitors talk about? I'm going to go binge or let's go have a binge or I had a binge. Do you hear that that parlance or is that just me thinking of 2013? I think it's used quite loosely to be honest. Yeah, yeah. But no one really knows what it means. I think because I think we've all been and she's going to get into this in a bit. But we've all been there at some point where we've been doing the eating thing. And we don't have control over it's quite crazy over your own hands. You're like, what is going on here? Like I just keep putting things in my mouth. So, so yeah, yeah, you know, again, it's like humor. I kind of helps like sue things. I think that's part of the reason that it's just like, hey, let's go to golden coround binge or something or like your bro, did you binge again? But, but yeah, yeah, I think if you've done this long enough. And I think usually if you have had a few fat loss phases under your belt, you, there's a good chance you might have been. It's a point before. And now we're talking about like a, a, a, a, a, a realty binge. So, um, Rizzo, tell me, what, what is the actual clinical terminology? What, what is an actual binge episode, a binging episode when it comes not to listen to podcasts, but something far less important like eating food? So, what you would define as an actual binge episode, one would have to consume like an unusual amount of food, more than someone would normally at a certain period of time. And it's under two hours or under two hours. The person would experience a loss of control. And there is a significant degree of impairment in psychological distress after the binge as well. Yes. And some individuals even compensate after the fact, um, they might try to overexercise, they might try to purge, um, through either direction. Right. Okay. Okay. So now, now we're starting to talk, we're, we're creating the distinction between what we colloquially talk about. And when something, you know, gets put down in the DSM and it is something we need to be maybe perhaps more concerned with. Um, how many times does something that's defined as a binge need to happen before they might get classified as is having, you know, a binge eating disorder? Um, there would need to be some sort of impairment in an area of their life. So that can range from work, school, home, just within relationships as well. So there needs to be some sort of impairment. Okay. So how much experience have you had clinically with working with people who have struggled with binge eating in your practice? Um, I would say I've had the most experience within the last year working with individuals that struggle with benches. I feel like Corona, the coronavirus has spiked that a bit as well. It's increased stress levels a lot. Interesting. So so binge eating is some kind of coping strategy. Is that is that kind of where you see the connection there that stress levels, drive people to doing this? Yes. Talk to me a little more about that. Sure. It certainly is a coping mechanism. We don't want to judge the behavior because it is serving a purpose for them. They are receiving some positive effects from it. So a person might go to food because they're stressed at the end of the day. They could go to food because it's part of the culture. That's the way a lot of people bond together through food. I feel like in the fitness industry, sometimes binge, benches are glorified even after a competition. So that can serve as a coping skill as well. Like it's a form of celebration. So do you think I have an idea of the answer to this, but I know when I see competitors go out to eat because I was kind of tongue in cheek saying, hey look, if you're planning to go binge, it's by definition not a binge. But the times when I do actually see the exception of that rule is post show people will often plan to go out have a celebratory meal and I'm like, you know what I'm going to eat until I'm satisfied. And then even with that plan, they look up elbow deep into the third dessert and feeling uncomfortable. And they're like, this, I know I had a plan to eat a lot, but this is something else. I don't know, Bert, I mean, how often have you seen that when we have like, we even maybe tell an athlete, like, hey, this is a show in April. You don't have another one till August, like, you know, celebrate. It's all good on Saturday night. And then you have that, that email of a little bit of shock, especially for first time competitors, a little bit of, hey, that's actually blood into Sunday. I did not see this coming. I didn't want this, even though I had permission, but it really freaked me out. I find that's almost just as common as something more moderate happening. It's almost 50, 50 in my head when I think about first time competitors and even having the commission and having the plan. I don't know what your experience has been like, Bert. No, it's been very, very similar. Yeah, you can tell them quite often. It's like, okay, this is just what I've seen. This is what's expected. We do go a little overboard. But it's one of those things that I think some people would just have to experience it on the own. And then they're like, I gotcha. That was like, for real. And it applies to me as well. But, but yeah, I think it's something more common with beginning, beginning from competitors. You'll see that guys that have been doing this just a little bit longer, like quite often like, you know what? I'm just, I'm going to go grab some of my balance and I just want to go to sleep. And I can't, you know, it's, it's the they get out of, I guess they've done enough time is what that scarcity might. And kind of like they understand how it works and how you can need weeks and weeks to like feel better and like not might watch every billboard this advertising food on the way to the show. So, so yeah, super common with percent competitors and and like Amanda says, sometimes it's it's it's part of the culture. It's like what you do. It's like throwing champagne like after you want to see him. Amanda, I think one of the most challenging things I deal with as a coach is that when this happens, the person is almost not always. But often they don't want it to happen anymore. And they have self loading about it. They have self blame and they can see how it objectively conflicts with their goals if it's like mid season between two shows or if they're trying to maybe not gain as much weight as they did last season, which made them have this off season that was, you know, half cuts, half, half bulking. You know, so they're thinking about the future like this is going to mess up my bodybuilding goals and that push and pull that dissidents is the. one of the hardest things they experience. And it's easy, I found, I almost feel guilty about this thinking about it at times in my coaching career where it's easy to get sucked into that, you know? And I have like lightweight at times, sometimes felt like, you know, the response I just gave that person was basically, hey, don't you know, bingeing is not helpful, don't do that, you know? But like, no shit, like that doesn't help. I think I remember when I was in that same situation back in like '07 and a little bit less each season after that, I, it wasn't for lack of, it wasn't something I wanted besides in the short term, maybe at least to initiate it. And it certainly wasn't something that I felt good about or proud of, you know? And it's, I think it's a difficult thing. I know for many coaches and many athletes, they have gotten to where they are through, at least their experiences, exerting a ton of willpower, having a lot of agency, you know, pulling themselves up from their bootstraps, you know? I think, I think bodybuilding like breeds a certain sense of like libertarianism in your own life. Like, I got this, look what I did, look what I pushed myself through. And I think that's really good for the things where you do have agency in control. But I don't know how helpful that mindset is when someone is in the throws of this very physiological response. So how do you deal with that to the clinician? Like, I'm sure coaches with coaches and individuals would love to hear that when simply try harder or just don't do that. Or, you know, the psychological advice of, stop it, doesn't work. You know, what does that look like for you as a clinician? How do you help someone? - Right, I'm so glad that you brought this up. It's kind of like telling a sad person, don't be sad. Like, just get over it. We really want to remove the shame and judgment around it because I think that is what perpetuates the cycle. And it perpetuates the compensatory behaviors afterwards. It perpetuates any sort of action that follows that to try to correct fit. So we want to remove the shame and judgment. We want to acknowledge what it's doing, what the binge is doing. Because like you said, most people are very self-aware that it is an issue, like it hinders progress for athletes. So we want to look at why it might be happening and what you want to do instead to understand, you know, like what's happening? How can we replace it with something more effective? - So what often are you seeking to replace that behavior with? What is something that's more effective? It still allows that, that still is still a coping mechanism. That's another thing I think of a lot of the times is, there aren't good or bad behaviors. There's adapted behaviors that serve you more or less. Like you said in the start of this, absolutely. When you binge in the moment, man, this is a sense of relief. I've been dieting for ages. I haven't been able to fit this in my macros. So I haven't been, quote unquote, allowed to use this. Like whenever a paradigm of dieting you come from, I guarantee you a large pizza, probably by ice cream cake, probably isn't on it. So the ability to do that, it feels really good in the moment. And I think everyone would agree with that, even if there is part of you that is also judging you. There's part of you that is very satisfied, appreciated and maybe even needed that. So, but like you said, then it conflicts with our goals. So what does that, that transformation look like for someone who is trying to replace that behavior? - Right, there's a sense of relief when someone is about to go into a binge. And we want to look for that in other avenues. So I usually really enjoy the process with my clients in getting them more in touch with their body. 'Cause more often than not, there's a huge disconnect and that very much happens during a binge because we don't feel the signals within our body. So we want the client or the athlete to be more in touch with their body. We want them to be able to stop, like stop whatever it is they're doing and take the perspective of, okay, am I gonna feel good doing this afterwards? Like after it happens, am I still gonna feel good? If the answer is yes, whatever it is, okay continue. If the answer is no, then okay, we need to take a step back and do something different. So a lot of self-awareness needs to come into the picture. Also communicating to others, like reaching out to others and voicing what it is that's coming up for the individual also helps because it gets you out of your own head. Fertil, I don't know if you've tried other things with athletes. - No, I think so far everything we've discussed, well, a lot of what we've discussed, like one thing I've done to slow down, what's going on for I think especially contest prep athletes is just really make and understand what's going on, like why they feel the way they do. So for example, a big one's been like, yo, here's the Minnesota Starvation Experiment. Like check this out, man. Like what's your feeling? It's just how we're programmed. Like we would be here as a species if we weren't wired this way. And what you're feeling right now is just something that most people who live in a, in the first world country in a development nation, they just don't ever experience like this is so primal and like out there that like it's hard to even comprehend. It's quite crazy that we can push ourselves into this position while keeping, while all the other things that we have going on that, like I guess make you successful as a physique athlete. So it's like we pick exactly how we stuff ourselves, but nevertheless, there's certain side effects to come with that that you just cannot like evade. And I think sometimes when you slow it down for the person in that way, they're like, oh, okay. Like I understand what's going on and that helps an awful lot. So with my conscious prep athletes, I think that's, that's especially once they get to that place where it's just like, okay, we're definitely a lot of the body fat that our body would probably feel safer with right now. It helps a lot where I do have, I think, more issues is probably just someone who comes from kind of a yo-yo diet history. Those ones, you know, it's because they're like, yo, I'm not even close to my goal. And I keep like, shooting myself in the foot. Those are the ones that are just, they're so hard. They're so hard to manage and to just really get rolling with. - What's going on 3D MJ's Eric Helms here? Thanks for listening to our podcast. I just want to take a second to tell you about Mass, monthly applications and strength sport. This is a monthly research review that I put out with Greg Knuckles, Dr. Mike Zordos, and Dr. Eric Tricksler. We cover the most up-to-date peer-reviewed research in the world of strength and physique sport that's directly relevant to your practice as a coach or an athlete. We provide our reviews in a written format, but also since you enjoy our podcast, in audio roundtable reviews where we discuss the research in depth. Finally, we also do video concept reviews where we cover a broader topic and video format for your learning. For fitness professionals, you can take quizzes on Mass content and earn continuing education credits for most of the biggest certifying bodies in the fitness industry. If you want to sign up and get a subscription, head over to 3DMuscleJourney.com and click on the Products tab. Thanks for your time and thanks for listening. - What sorts of approaches have you guys used for? For someone that's not in contest prep or is just an off-season? - Don't die it. Don't lie it. It's like a big part of it's like, hey, let's distance ourselves away from the trauma and let's kind of work on your goal but like in a different way. So, you know, we will eventually cut, we'll get that, you know, that level of lean is that you do want that body weight that you want. You know, so you can fit into whatever it is that you want if it isn't too close wise, all that. But, you know, right now, let's focus on other things that your body can do, that are still pretty conducive to your goal and just will help us have it so that we're less likely to end up in the same spot, basically. So, yeah, it just, no fat loss changes. And that's hard, man. That's hard because, you know, I feel like, here I am trying to help you. Like, I'm the one with the keys. It's gonna get you there and I'm telling you, it's like, okay, like, but we can't do that one thing you really want to do. So it's like, you know, it's like I'm being hired to say no essentially. - Yeah, I think even to take it a step further, one of the things that I like to see with my athletes who struggle with this is an extended offseason or they don't track too. So I think, I think a good challenge, or it's not like the intervention, it's a measuring stick. Like, it tells me where they're at. Like, if they can slowly gain weight or maintain weight or reach their goals, which are not related to fat loss at this time without tracking. And it's not just like, you know, as soon as I stopped tracking, I had uncontrollable or repeatedly semi-controlled overeating that was more than I wanted and I just kept rationalizing myself into, you know, too quick of weight gain and I felt bad about myself. You know, that to me, that helps the athlete understand like, look, like, I don't know why you, like you shouldn't expect to be able to have [BLANK_AUDIO] good experiencing dieting down to 5% if you can't not track and just hang around 15% for a guy or you could add 10 to those numbers for a female competitor. So yeah, I think this kind of comes down to the chicken or egg and I think a lot of competitors were in the midst of it. They're so low to the ground, they're so amongst it all. They don't realize what is causing what. So the worst blowout I had, like most first time competitors was my first season. And my immediate response to these, oh shit, what's going on with me? I can't control it. It's to go out, I just forced myself to diet 20 weeks. I'm just going to force myself to go back on those calories. So I just had a 6,000 calorie day. No big deal. Protein and veggies for the next three days. And then I had this big blowout, you know. And if you look at research on, on vision disorder, specifically even in half leads, you'll see that one of the best predictors, when you, when you look at large analyses on this, a predictor for a binge is fasting, you know. So restriction, not, I'm not saying, hey, you're doing IF right now. I guess what they're going to binge. What I'm saying is, is that restriction props over compensation. That's just the, I mean, it makes sense. We wouldn't be here as humans if that wasn't the way it was. Absolutely, you know. And to tell a little quick science story for those who are not aware, Bertol mentioned the Minnesota semi starvation study and they also mentioned handing you the keys to your future success. Well, Ansel Keys, back in 1950, published the biology of semi starvation. This was a very cool study where they took conscientious objectors from World War II who were mentally and physically all males, of course, because 1950, who were all in a very good mental and physical state. And they participated in a six month semi starvation study. Another reason why they chose males is they were also looking at how to apply this to POW camp survivors. And they gave them half the calories they needed to maintain body weight and had them do forced cardio and work on base. They all volunteered for this, but you know, volunteering for a study in 1950s, a little different than volunteering for a study in 2020 means you can't unvolunteer and you actually have military guards following you around to make sure you follow the protocol. And very quickly, they had to institute a lot of things. So people started breaking into no shit after hours like the commissary, which is like a military base supermarket and binge eating in the aisles. They started sneaking food when they had jobs working in the kitchens. So they had to start giving people partners and they said to start enforcing this whole like, hey, be a good participant. So they had this kind of moral judgment around it. Some people stopped going to their university classes. They were so tired and unable to focus. People started adding water to their food to bulk it up. This is like the precursor to to Walden Farms and like cauliflower rice back in 1950. And this is not a joke. One guy actually cut off one of his toes, if I recall correctly, to get out of the study. Might have been a finger. Can't remember. And then there were a number of people who changed their profession after the study and became chefs. So this just goes to show you, yeah, just the biological drive and how powerful it is. And we've known about this for 70 years now in the academic literature. So anyway, I think I remember reading that quite literally. I just consumed everything I could. I found on Wikipedia first and then I found all the published data that I could find in the years afterwards and read it all because I felt I felt understood by that Wikipedia entry. So yeah, and it's interesting to see how a more open and freer diet to follow or adhere to allows for the restoration of just normal eating versus like trying to stick to a plan. I've noticed that a lot with clients, they start following just a less restrictive plan. And the benches go away. Yeah, let's talk about that. So this is the data on intuitive eating is counterintuitive to I think many in the fitness industry. And that's why you can hear people take some, you know, it gives them really hot takes that clearly show a lot of understanding of this chicken or a relationship. And I have quite literally, I've been one of them. If you track back and listen to my old content, when I didn't even know it really, what intuitive eating was or didn't understand this relationship, specifically what I'm talking about is the intuitive eating as a technique of like you said, I'm in to helping people have more internal awareness developing what's called interoceptive awareness, understanding their satiety and hunger cues. And eating in a way that respects their hunger and honors their feelings and what they want more collectively. So if we go back to that kind of first step intervention that you talked about Amanda and then that burda you hinted at, what you guys are trying to do and what I've tried to do with my clients is to give them space to think because a big aspect of binge eating like you guys have been saying is that there's a lack of control and it happens and it's kind of like, whoa, what just happened? Not that you're not aware of what's going on in the moment, but you absolutely don't feel like you're in control. And I think if you could ask yourself, did I want to do that even shortly after? It's like, nah, not really, you know, so I think intuitive eating when someone is struggling with binge eating, like I can't control how much I eat, I just want to eat everything. You don't really want to eat everything. Part of you wants to eat everything. And that part of you is almost rebelling against the other part of you that's creating this restriction. So this is where that counter intuitive aspect comes from. Intuitive eating, one of the things it gives you is an unconditional permission to eat. So when you have permission, ironically, you don't necessarily need to rebel. Now you're on the same page and you can actually think, you know, and that's really what intuitive eating is instead of saying, you know, the person is in the throes of binge eating or binge eating disorder and they get told this aspect of intuitive eating. They go, I know exactly what's going to happen. I'm just going to stuff my face forever and eventually I'll turn into the Akira monster and I'll just be to roll me down the street and tell everyone to watch out. Like, I can't have that happen. I'm deathly afraid of that. And but but that's kind of again, being low to the ground, missing the chicken for the egg, not understanding how you got there in the first place. One of the reasons why, you know, burdo was saying incorrect me if I'm wrong, of course, as always, you know, burdo was saying, I don't want you to die. And you get you away from this goal is that while it's not quite binge eating disorder, and there may be some benches and it's not these cute might might benches that we're seeing. When someone struggles with that dieting process and kind of has this kind of slow yo yo over the season long length and they really struggle like they have to compete every year because they got too heavy in the off season and they have to get heavy in the off season because they got really lean and did it last year, but they don't want to. They just did it because they had a heavy off season. That process, there may not even be, you know, a lot of true benches in there, but it's almost this operating out of a sense of restriction like, oh my God, it's just all I want to do is eat. I got to do it. Oh, I hate what I look like. I get back to it. And it's this cyclical relationship that comes from kind of like the culture of restriction, which is very easy to get caught up in in in physics sport. Or anyone is trying to change their body composition. So intuitive eating is this ironic kind of solution where you're not judging the behavior. You're saying, hey, you can do what you want, but we're asking, do you actually want to binge? Because it sounds like you're in my office for a reason. You probably don't really want to binge 100% of you. So what I want to do is instead of you judging the behavior of binging, I want you to simply to have the space and time to think and to decide because that's really, I think what we need to do with our clients is not tell them what they should want. I think some people in the, you know, like the anti-diaculture community, they see all the trauma that this is caused in the cyclical process that I talked about and they have felt or experienced firsthand or secondhand that damage in that trauma. And it's real. Don't get me wrong. I don't mean to disparage it. But the crux of what we need to be doing is to help people get agency back, get choice, not telling them, hey, this is a bad thing. Always you should never die it. That's an eating disorder. But rather, I want to give you the tools and the space to decide what you want to do because you don't actually want to binge. Maybe you want to eat more than you're allowing yourself to. Maybe you want to eat certain foods you haven't allowed yourself to, but maybe you also just want to have one donut and stop. But the fear of eating the donut and it becoming more donuts and what you do after it, it does become more donuts. It means that next time it'll be more donuts. So I ramble a lot there, but I would love to get your perspective on that Amanda on the concept of removing some of these restrictions to what we feel like is a sport that demands restriction. How can those coexist and where does that tool come in? Right. I can see how being very rigid and strict with one's diet is effective when in competition of course. But outside of that, is it really necessary? Can we reach a point where the athlete just intuitively eats? They're able to self-regulate that. I think that that is a goal for everyone, for all of our athletes. If someone does have a history of binging and having this yo-yo relationship, it's really important. relationship with food and they go into practicing intuitive eating or just like they're right at the start. There might be a pendulum effect. There certainly might be a pendulum effect because for so long this has been restricted from them and there's been so much hyper focus. They're going to shift all the way to the other end because it's like, oh my gosh, I'm free now. But once the individual is able to really tap into their signals, they're really able to hear their body, what it is communicating and really understanding what satiety means, not physical fullness, but satiety, they will see like, okay, I really didn't want or I really don't want 12 Reese's peanut butter cups. I just want like one. I'm good with one or just a normal serving. And usually that comes with exposure, trial and error, actually letting yourself feel it. And you can start with very small steps, start with things that aren't that scary, maybe just a bolicereal before you jump into like ordering something from a restaurant. You know, that's a very different experience. You know, one thing you mentioned and it really, it's exactly why I hate those that informats where I guess like a binge is almost scheduled. You know, I like where it's like a cheat day or a contest press where it's like, you have a cheat meal. And you know, with the macros, it's like, well, that was kind of how you used to do it. And then the macros came and they they fixed some things, but like not all the way because like you said, if you're not having this dialogue between like Jekyll and Hyde in your head, you feel just a little bit of that pressure come off, you know, and and obviously, yeah, so the the old fashioned way with the cheat days, it's like, okay, that definitely doesn't lend to what we're trying to figure out here. The macros thing was like a step in the right direction, but obviously it causes like own sorts of problems. And this whole like intuitive, it's just it's just so I think people have a hard time grasping it because it's like the most customizable thing you can actually apply it to your situation because it takes into consideration like what it is that you that you want that you want. And and your previous experiences and not just since you started doing this, but who knows like maybe back as a child or whatever. It's there's just so many moving parts and yet takes a little bit longer to figure out. It's kind of the same thing is like when you know, we used to get those athletes are like, I'd prefer a menu and it's like, no, you actually don't prefer a menu. We're going to give you macros. And you know, that would freak them out. And if it took them four weeks to figure that out fine because it's worth it and it's going to teach us how to skills it will be good going forward. And with the whole intuitive eating thing like boy, like literally I'd say that it took me since I knew I wanted to go in that direction like for sure. For sure, it was probably a good three, four years of kind of like really like trying to figure things out. But boy has it been worth it to the point where I'd be I'd be lying to you if I told you like, oh, I've never had a binge eating episode. Like, no, yes, but like now that we've done it this way, I just, I'm conscious prep or whatever, I just don't see it ever really happening unless I really want to go back to that, to the, the fail end, but anyhow, yeah, in intuitive eating, it's just it's so abstract. There's so many layers to it, but that's why it's so worth like trying to dive into it at some point, especially during physique athlete. Yeah, I totally agree. I think, um, I think it's worth explaining what intuitive eating is because that sounds like a thing if you just put the two words together, but you don't actually know the definition, but it, it was actually created by a couple of retro dietitians, um, specifically to help people deal with a an unhealthy relationship with food in their body. And it is something you learn, you know, like intuitive eating the way we used to talk about it in so like 2015, 2016 and the bodybuilding community was like, hey, once you've macro-tracked for a couple years, now you'll be able to do it without tracking. That's not intuitive eating. That's having a inbuilt habit-based awareness of your food and not needing to whip out the scale or have the app on your phone. That's great. Don't get me wrong because that's absolutely something you're going to have to leverage when it comes time to like you said, Amanda, you might need that structured rigidity to not even might. Even the most flexible contest prep diet is still restrictive because a nobody naturally going to get to essential levels of body fat. That's just not the way it works. You know, that's why not everyone gets in shape. So I think, I think it's important understand that intuitive eating is a set of skills that clinicians developed that they teach people. Like if you look at a study on a intuitive eating, the intervention group, it's not just told, hey, do what you want. They are given training and guidance and continual clinical sessions with these professionals who teach them all of the various principles of intuitive eating. In enhance their interoceptive awareness, help them reflect creating that space to make a decision. Ironically, it's a weight-neutral strategy, which means that people don't gain weight typically when they're on a intuitive eating. And body does what it does. And I do think like you said, Amanda, that if you come from a history of restriction, it is not only normal and expected, but probably healthy for that pendulum to swing back up. And then it will probably swing back. That's the nature of pendulums. That's certainly what I've experienced is that every offseason I've had after one of my preps, my resting body weight has come down a little bit. And it's only gone up in the last recent, last four or five years when I really put a lot of effort into trying to get bigger. And I'd like to think that was actually maybe some muscle gain based on my 2019 season and what I looked like in the body weight I was. But the point being, I think it's one of those things where you're going to have to keep your finger in the whole damn to not have the water come out until you actually decide to take it out, have some water scorching in the face, and sparkle it. So what I mean by that is that if you're like, I am absolutely not going to stop tracking or not have this mindset of restriction in your head or in your app or on paper, however you do it or not following my diet plan, because I know I can't do what you're talking. I don't have that interoceptive awareness. I don't have that ability to stop myself. I need an objective outside criteria. And if I don't do it, I know what's going to happen. And I don't want that. Well, that's like anything in life. Like, yeah, you're you're not going to be able to construct a building before you finished your engineering degree. And if you try, it would probably be very, very unsafe building. So yes, if you have no ability to intuitively eat, you're probably going to not do it right. But that's like a skill. You just have to, I guess have the courage, I would say, to let yourself learn. And that comes with some body fat gain, which is scary for people. But that's guess what? You know, you pull that thread and know what does that get to? You hate the idea of body fat. You have these body image perceptions and things, which are another whole. Oh, yeah. Like, I know this is not this is not a belief I've ever consciously had that, you know, skinnier is better or leaner is better or healthier, anything like that. And I'm very fortunate for that. I guess you could say I'm even privileged to have that. But I know a lot of people in our society do have that ingrained from a very young age. told to look that way. And it certainly gets reinforced by bodybuilding culture. I see nothing wrong within the context of competing in bodybuilding. Say, look, here's the standard, you know, this is what you should look like on stage. But I think a lot of people can very easily in our community see that as, and that's what we should be that is a bodybuilder, you know, rather than that's me on game day condition. But, you know, bodybuilders need to have kids, lives, jobs, you know, be good citizens, all that stuff. So I've rambled a lot, but yeah, I'll leave it there. I'm sure you guys have some input. That's great. I think one of the biggest elements about intuitive eating is learning how to trust yourself. And from my experience, the clients I've worked with, they don't trust themselves. They don't trust themselves around food or outside of food. It's a very parallel or mirrored, just process with how someone's functioning with food, whether it's restricting or binging, and what is going on outside, binging reflects what the person is feeling, a loss of control. And they're also experiencing that outside as well. And their personal life, and somehow they're trying to find control through that behavior. But it's counterintuitive. When you go into intuitive eating, you're going to have to let that go, and take those steps to learn how to trust yourself and trust the signals that your body is telling you. And sometimes when someone has been following, you know, macronutrients, or some other diet for so long, Those signals are very dam-dampered. We just used to like following certain numbers and not realizing, oh man, I'm pretty full or I need more food right now. It's kind of just like a go to protocol. I'm curious to know what has helped both of you in really feeling solid within two to beating. I think you should go because I honestly a lot of what I learned I learned from you and your guidance from you helping me with my transition is during each prep. So but when you go ahead. I think I just started to see gaps in the system that I thought was the the end all with the I FYM. You know little things like when you're going to arrest me like okay I know this is what the like nutritional information says but I just I don't believe it like I trust myself more than that. So there's a hint there right it's like I trust myself more than whatever you know the website has listed for for this dish I really want to eat. So just more and more moments like that and I think the peak of it for me was probably this my last contest prep and to be honest I almost felt guilty because at some point I put out a video because I was tired of these like 10,000 calorie challenges and it was like the 2500 calorie challenge. It was 25,000 but we crossed that zero and then like that was right on the week where I decided I'm like I'm done with this tracking stuff because I can so just based off what I know like I know how much I should be eating more or less depending on the day depending on what training is going to look like what recovery is that how active I am I am. I wore my stress levels right all these other moving parts that I would take into consideration that I just I'm like you know what let's just throw that away I'm pretty much done tracking with the exception of my protein like we'll keep a little ticker on that. And I'm like wow this is so much better and it would save it would save the day like so frequently like words like you know what like I really need to end this day in a way that's completely different from how I thought it would be or start a day completely different from how I thought it would have to be. So I just saw so much utility in that during a phase that I think most bodybuilders would consider it's like so important it's so risky like there's no room for error and I found a system that based off like again what really helps is it like I know say 160 is my contest with I know how should I should feel at 170 165 how crappy I should feel here on a daily basis and I'm listening to my body to kind of you know like way things out and use that feedback to make my decisions with with eating. And I think it was a very porous and so muscular wise I don't like where I started but I had never retained so much muscle before and I think to to cap it is like at the end I remember sitting in my couch and I think a big part of it was definitely the recovery diet format that we had where we made weight gaining a priority but but it was just I think the recovery aspect was just so smooth I remember it was like two three weeks afterwards and I'm like I literally feel like the week before I started my prep and this is so. bizarre and it and it bugs the hell out of me I feel like this part of the prep that we're all supposed to go through that coming out was just like almost taken away from me. You know I missed that but I really didn't I really didn't that I much prefer it that way but but again it was just it was just because it was a very important phase there's all these things that I trusted way more than the numbers and you know again they came from just just a lot of years of educating myself and exposing myself. You know what we're trying out things I think might be a little better but I was able to do it during a contest prep so that was I think for me like my peak with this and I feel finally at least nutritionally like in a very safe place like with the lifting weights that are so times I'm like man I'm gonna snap my shit up if I keep doing my RDLs like that but when it comes to like nutrition it's very comforting to know that okay this part now I don't think it's I'm ever at risk of it ever hurting me and and that's a good thing. I'm just feeling because the sort of pain that that side causes like I say that like when it comes to bodybuilders those are where biggest injuries are like it's not like other athletes it's not hamstrings it's not you know we're not breaking kneecaps it's it's the the mental side of it so so yeah that was probably why I really saw the utility in this and and I have a few athletes right now especially with everything going on that we're kind of doing just a maintenance phase where it's like you're going to maintain it. You're body weight and like that's a really good thing and they don't get it all the way but I think after listening to this podcast which I'm going to make them listen to it they're going to be like okay like this really connects like why is it like you're so insisting on like doing this thing here where we don't track it we maintain weight which I think is such an important skill for a physique athlete who's you know like you might be the position like Eric where it's like all right I'm going to push my body weight in this direction that took some awareness on his side because he knew how bloated more or less yet the feel after every meal at either the day or for the most part over the course of the week and same thing when you're contemplating like that feeling saves you saves your butt quite a few times from like just making errors and doing things that don't mind up with your long-term goals when you can talk to yourself calm yourself down be like okay like I'm okay it should be something that all athletes try for. Yeah I agree with everything you said Burtle and I think so people probably know this given how much I read research and I'm deep can be detail oriented and and kind of I guess the nature of me trying to get on stage shredded and that I've had to that I've got a hip surgery just so I could keep squatting like as much as I'd sometimes talk about balance and being relaxed and don't worry about shit I have a absolute inner psychopath and I remember the whole macro thing the whole if it fit your macros thing for me I used to be a militant promoter of it back in the day on the forums because I actually saw the downside to the whole clean eating approach like like haven't you guys read the shit on how you all probably have micronutrient deficiencies don't you know why you actually feel worse than I do don't you think that you're investing a lot of effort and time in this when you can do something else this is better like or burdo's argument like yeah you're just cutting out food groups you're not actually tracking your protein your protein is going down throughout prep because you're keeping the same number of chicken breasts but now you you don't eat oats and you don't eat peanut butter like you just went from to 180 when you're went from you know 10 to 5% body fat like that was my angle I didn't really care about the idea that it was better for health and all that I think a nice little side benefit health what talking 2000 like 7 through 9 Eric is just about the that work crush it science mentality really the worst of both worlds and so I think for me I had parts of me where I would look early on at burdo's more casual laid back approach to bodybuilding what appeared to be from the outside no one sees him that shredded and the thing is is that only stays there for so long like an oh seven I remember thinking like you know burdo's got more natural talent in me but I got I have the heart and the mind and the drive you know like you try to maintain your own arrogance just to why you're a subpar athlete and then and then you know I did like you know he didn't get that lean in 07 and I thought I'm going to be a little bit more than I thought I see I know something I'm real smart and then I see him in 08 just maintain the same but still in love like he learns some shit absolutely he's leveling up but he gets insanely shredded he gets shredded to a point that people didn't normally see an 08 wins every pro card competes as a pro and then has a pretty stable off season deals with injury and his his ability to handle the highs and the lows so well with something while I'm here gaining 50 pounds and two months post season Mister optimal it's really hard to maintain that self delusion when you see someone with less precision apparently do better than you so much better than you so it makes you realize like okay I'm clearly missing something like I'm I'm crossing all my eyes and dotting on my T's but yes I know I said that backwards but I'm I'm not even on like the right the right page I'm running in the wrong piece of paper so I think I started to go like I he's clearly aware of something I'm not I'm not even on the same like planet and when I started to become aware of the amount that he could not worry about certain things put effort towards other things be much more in control and the level of awareness that was really kind of the birth of 3dmj in my mind and when I started to see you know Jeff after years of doing it that way you know hardcore finally see see progress in his late 30s after relaxing it was this I was sold you know so for me it's been this continual process basically relearning to just eat normally which basically is kind of what intuitive eating is intended to do but on that note and this is something I don't want to turn this into too much of a tangent because I've already not shut up enough is that intuitive eating always it's a framework it's a system it's a set of principles it's something you learn it's a skill but it doesn't get to get put on a blank slate right a lot of the people who who benefit the most from it have a really you know unhealthy relationship with eating beforehand and I think a bodybuilder who learns it they might have fears that are unfounded because they feel like that that that slate is going to be white completely clean but somehow the baby is going to get thrown out with the BC a water you know so they feel like I don't want to eat like I still need to have like you know enough protein I still want to spread it out between four meals and I still want to have like, you know, protein after I work out and I don't want to eat like too low a calories, I still want to be able to gain weight. And it's like, you know, everything you learn from intuitive eating just will make it easier and better for you to do that. Like when I gained weight at a very slow rate in 2017, 2018 going into my 2019 season, I didn't crack, you know, and like, how do I not eat enough protein? You know what I'm saying? Like, like, I can't really imagine a reality where my first knee jerk reaction after I finished training is not to have a meal that includes protein. Like, I'm not going to just randomly go get some M&M's out of the cabinet and be like, yeah, it's lunch today because hashtag intuitive eating. Like that's, that's not a thing for non bodybuilders who learn to do intuitive eating, let alone a bodybuilder who learns. So anyway, that's just the last thing I wanted to say as I think for me, I had to get convinced of the fact that it wasn't somehow a barrier to being quote unquote optimal. And once I fully understood that and explored it and then challenged myself when I moved to New Zealand, I said, "Are you not tracking? Just going to eat. You'll figure it out. You're not going to learn the skill unless you learn the skill." That was a really kind of opening pan to where it's box to my own benefit. Yeah, it sounds like for the both of you, there was a lot less focus on food in general and that allowed for everything to just relax and flow more. Absolutely. Yeah, I'd say I haven't had what I'd call a binge episodes since like 2011 to be honest, like that was probably the last time I had a last time. Yeah, so that's huge. Almost a decade. Pretty good for a bodybuilder. Not a whole lot of us can say that. You know, and I wanted to be that way for everyone else because it's just much better and much more efficient on this side. That was my last season two where I had one. I remember it specifically because I laughed about it. And here's actually good segue to go back to you, Amanda. There's the binge and then there's your response to it. I think a lot of the times the latter can do so much more psychological distress to the individual. In '07, man, it did a number on me. Like I said, I gained 48 pounds in two months and the level of self-loathing and crisis of identity that I experienced was huge. Oh, nine, I was basically in PTSD mode. It was only half as much weight. I eventually did get up to 220 but it was like a year later and it was intentional because that's how we thought, you know, how ultimately I'm going to be 200 pounds on stage. Come to find out the only way I'm going to be 200 pounds on stage, folks, is if I'm no longer part of 3D muscle journey. But nonetheless, nonetheless, the it was mostly me just trying not to have a repeat of '07. And in 2011, I had done the beginnings of this work, but I was still tracking and all that. But I had I knew what was what I was expecting and I knew that it didn't matter. Like if I had a binge, that's all good. I just diet it. That's normal. Like I understood that it was natural and I knew that it didn't have to have any meaning beyond what I put on it. Like I didn't have to have any meaning. And I remember specifically that I had just become mostly lactoval vegetarian. So this is why it was funny to me. And I was at Bryan College. We had like our student teacher day or whatever. And there was this rack of ribs. And I hadn't had even a chicken breast in like seven months. And I ate an entire plate of ribs and I didn't really want to. And I just started laughing about it. And I called my wife and I told her and I was like, it's not going to smell good later tonight. Like I haven't had anything to weigh or eggs or chicken breasts in. I didn't even have any chicken breasts in six months. And I just had like like post football game like lineman amount of ribs, you know, for lunch. So it's not going to be good later. So that's how it wasn't. But it didn't mean anything. And that was it the next day. I thought I was funny how how my fingers felt weird because it was so how much sodium I probably consumed. And that was it. Yeah, it's just like moving forward. Okay, this happened. Let's feedback. Let's move forward. I don't need to push myself or punish myself because I did something. And again, that's labeling and that's judging it. And it's attaching a meaning to it. Yeah, that's great. So let's talk more about that. Because I imagine we kind of jumped right into it like how do we deal with binging? But I imagine you're not at that point yet. Most people contact you. Like there's a few other layers of that onion that we have to unravel and cry about because it's an onion. So how do you help people through those early stages where the reaction to the binge is just as much of a problem as everything else? Yes, I really like to take my clients through pretty much unraveling the pattern of the binge. And what's happening beforehand, what's happening during and after. Obviously the action that happens after the binge as well. But we want to take a look at what's going on internally for them. Like what's their level of stress? What's going on at work? How are their relationships? And once they sort of understand the sequence of events, they're better able to catch it early on because they see the signs. So we do need to do some some back end work on that. And even unraveling messages that they've received about food, what they've seen other people do with foods, especially caretakers, what sorts of messages that they get from them from their about their body. So a lot of other extra work needs to go on before we necessarily go into, okay, let's fix this problem. So you just have to get to the point where they can say, I saw the signs. It opened up my eyes. I saw the signs. Yes. For all the people who are not not here live with us, which is only us. Andrea are silent and invisible producer to shook her head hardcore when I did that. But I think what might be helpful. How do some of these folks who are out there? How do they recognize those signs on their own? How do they develop some of that awareness? Because I know it's been it's helpful for me in the past if I had coaches and therapy and other aspects of my life. But it's easy to say like, go get a counselor. Go get a therapist. But that's ultimately what a therapist does is to help you access that choice, help you notice your feeling, is help you to look on to yourself without judgment. So you can have more agency and live your your hashtag best life. So how do we help people self identify some of those things? How do they be aware of what they're doing? What are some of the tools you give your your clients to take away? I think maybe that's where we should kind of direct the last portion of this podcast towards some actionable thoughts or practices or or mindsets or maybe even checklists that athletes can use. I will have my my clients pretty much identify what source of stress stressors are happening. If there's a particular stressor that happens before binge, we want to look at the patterns. Like are there any patterns consistent patterns with each binge before, during after? And then we want to get into what are they doing with their emotions? Right? Like what are the emotions that are coming up? Is it anxiety, depression, fear? What is it that triggers the event? Are you doing any preparation beforehand? Do we want to identify that? A lot of the work is just becoming more self aware. Burdo, how about you? Is there any things that you've you've given to your clients as ways to help them generate the self awareness? Like obviously I do want to highlight what you talked about earlier. One of the purposeful phases that you have your athletes go through is eating and maintenance but not necessarily tracking. So having a goal of not changing their body weight as a part of kind of ingraining some of these these habits and mindsets we talked about. But what other I guess more short term things, you know, inside of these phases or on day-to-day basis or any offseason that you use that are successful? It's great that Amanda mentioned that because that is one thing when we are having issues with binge eating where we're doing well and then like boom something happens. It's funny sometimes it's a coach like your spider senses go so like man I am hurt from this guy. These are half a day late. I think damn it. We just start to replace our septin. It's like okay what do these things have in common? You know? And quite often I can athlete is because often a few things happen that are quite strong. It's like oh every time after I get in a fight with my spouse that's when it happens. So we go through that a lot and just make them aware of the fact that yo okay if something like that happens again and you get that same stimulus just be on the lookout for that and like slow yourself. down. You know, a food journal is something that sometimes I'll do is like, when you feel like you're about to go there, start writing down your thoughts. And then sometimes like you'll see that they're like, "Man, I actually started writing down like, okay, so someone's always got me really pissed because he doesn't appreciate the fact that I took the extra time." So anyhow, right, it slows them down a little bit and they get to see what's actually going on and sometimes right then and they'll see that pattern and stimulus in regards to what happens prior to that episode. So yeah, those are two things that I use quite often with my athletes. And then often, honestly, if it gets bad enough, and it's just like, we'll pull the plug man and we'll pull some other time because I'd much rather have you have like 10 super good preps over the course of your career than like one, like really good one that you just toughed out and you got shredded, but you never came back for more and you never really got to enjoy what this sport is all about because you only got to visit once. So yeah, that's usually my process. I love it. I think some of the kind of the way I think about it when I'm coaching and trying to help someone is I think of the more immediate like, hey, you got a gunshot wound and we're going to address it, which is almost always restricted to like the contest prep period. And I think some athletes simply don't binge during contest prep. That's just the way they're wired some do. And I don't think I'm comfortable necessarily saying one is worse a bet than the other or that either preclude you from competing or means anything about your success as a competitor necessarily. But I think that like there are there are there are those acute things that we have to handle. And then there's also addressing is there an underlying cause here? And a lot of the times if something happens during prep or you know, a vacation that got scheduled or a birthday or in the immediate aftermath of a prep, that just it that's just is what it is. And it doesn't have to have meaning behind it doesn't have to have an underlying cause of the fact that you starved yourself, you know, or you're in the process of starving. That's just part and parcel of it, you know, it's like you got hit and you had a concussion and football, it happens, right? So some of those things are very similar to what you guys have talked about creating that self-awareness, creating that space and trying to remove all judgment from it, not worrying about how the binge will impact things later. And therefore I'm a bad person. I did made a bad decision on my bad competitor, but just saying, Hey, let's get into solution mode and let's figure out what the trigger was, which is why you guys were talking about emotions and stressors. And let's see what we can do to safeguard that for the future. That's kind of the immediate. I think when we have multiple episodes during contest prep or non contest prep that kind of fit that almost continuing pattern like we talked about or when someone is doing contest prep, like we talked about just because there are off seasons, they get really unhappy with their shape or their body. And they don't really want to compete, but they feel like they have to. That's really kind of the bigger picture of things. So when I find that those larger kind of like, Hey, we need to look at the underlying cause, here stuff goes on that is when, you know, I'll reach out to or encourage the use of a, you know, therapist have them suggest that they reach out to Amanda, but the conversations I'll have with them concurrently worth that before that or maybe in lieu of that if it doesn't quite reach that threshold where they're getting, you know, outside help is to help them assess why are they competing? What does this sport mean to them? How do they feel about their body? Has their perception of their body changed since they've been in the sport? Have they shifted their goalposts in their own life? What are their values? How do they see other people asking all these questions? Sometimes people can find things out they didn't really realize like, I hate myself when I gain body fat or I have certain moral judgments about looking a certain way or a certain shape or I feel a pressure to be a certain way or you find out that they are also in the industry. They're a trainer. They've got the Instagram and they feel pressure to be a certain way. And that's kind of a new occurrence. They got to stay in shape. You know, I had Lauren Conlon on Iron Culture and she was talking about how terrible it is that a lot of the bikini competitors, especially in like the IFBB and the NPC, they feel like they have to stay in the community looking good, rubbing elbows with people to stay relevant. And she's like, that's, if it's true, that's terrible. But if it's not true, it's bullshit. And nonetheless, like, you shouldn't be trying to stay in almost stage shape all the time. That's crazy. So I guess those are the harder conversations that I think need to be had when you see more of a pattern. But it's important, I think, as a coach as an athlete to be able to distinguish between them. If you went through a season and you gained 30 pounds in three months and that didn't happen next season, I got a little less welcome to the club, you know, but if you were still having this pattern like a decade into the sport or if every season early in prep, half you doesn't even want to prep and you just white knuckle it through, I think that's when you need to start asking those questions. Because in my opinion, you know, we talked about those two little parts of your brain, the party that wants the binge and the party that naturally doesn't want you to binge. Those voices should probably not be there like six weeks into a contest prep in my last six months. Like both of those voices should be like, I love bodybuilding and I want to do that. It's at least the start of a prep. Don't get me wrong. I think everyone is going to have a moment of like, why am I doing this to myself? I think that's true. Yeah, you know, like I've asked that question during my PhD. I've asked that question during, you know, long walks up a hill. All the really, really hard things we do in our lives, I think you end up asking your question that that question, you know, so like, why didn't I just Uber? Like my lungs are tired. I didn't wear the right shoes, you know, the difficult things. So I think like that's normal, but that should be something that happens once you've already pushed yourself really hard. That should be when you have to pull out that sacrifice to win card, not been on my macros for a week. That then you should be asking yourself, wait, is this really something I want? So anyway, that's kind of the things that have been useful for me. I think there's also some language or some cues or some some things that I think are specifically helpful during the recovery phase, which I might be useful to talk about. Like one of the things I find during the recovery diet phase or just the post competition period is that I'm still operating out of this mindset of like restriction. Like even though I'm supposed to be in like a 1500 calories surplus and I'm trying to gain like a pound a week or more, I find like the tendency towards eating a whole box of donuts instead of just having two because I can. Like if you think about it, it doesn't make sense. Like I can have two donuts every day. Why do I need to have like I can have two over the next six days, not 12 today. And I'm not even going to enjoy the donuts. Like they're going to get diminished as I keep eating them. And I'm probably going to remember the end of it. Like I'm actually making this worse for myself. I guess just reminding myself like the foods there tomorrow is one of those conversations. That's a great reminder with myself. Yes. So anyway, I would love to hear what you guys have to have to say about the other recovery period. Yeah, being able to speak to yourself and and almost like kind of put your shake yourself a bit. Like the donuts will be there or whatever it is because there's a lack mentality when especially when we're at a lower body fat. That's just survival mechanism. But reminding yourself like it's always there. I'm able to have it whenever I want. And also just speaking to yourself nicely, I find a lot of clients that come to me there's a lot of just self-flagulation. Whether a bench has occurred or has not. And that's a very important area that I focus on with my clients. Just the way they speak to themselves, the way they think and process things. Shifting that perspective from negative to even just neutral. And then we move on to positive. Absolutely. Self-talk is huge. Berta, thoughts on that recovery period? Is there slightly different techniques or flavors that it takes on versus prep? I'd say what you hint to that is just the fact that the more these you get in, the more you kind of know what's around the corner. It's hard to explain to someone with the last five pounds or the last two percent of the body weight yet the lose is like, you know, until you actually go through it. Same thing on this side, it's that one's even harder to explain because I think, you know, it's harder but you don't realize how it's comparable to like that digging phase. Like the first few times you come out of a prep. So you get a few more of these in and you kind of vent through the cycles. You've made a few of the errors. And yeah, you again, it's just like, you know what? I've been I've proved this to myself many times over now. They like food will be there tomorrow. You know, and this is something that like even along the way, through the whole contrast prep and I was like, I kind of know this in the back of my mind that, you know what, like, at some point, like, food will be there tomorrow. At some point, like, you'll be deep into your season and complaining about how much time you spend each day like having to eat, you know. So, so yeah, I think with experience. Yeah, that goes a long way, but like Amanda said, it's like, man, like being nurturing to yourself. I think that is that is key. And again, nurturing sometimes it's like, it's like, it's like a good parent. Sometimes it's like, you know, you, you know, you calm yourself down, you know, you talk to yourself nicely. You make sure that, you know, you let yourself know that you're going to be safe, but sometimes it's a little tough love to and it's like, you know what, like, you have to put yourself through this if you want to pursue. So, so yeah, yeah, I coast on on both those things. And, but I will say this again, it just gets easier every time. So your first time is definitely the worst. Like many times and then from there, it's, it's yeah, yeah, it's and it feels great. Once you kind of have it mastered. It's like, okay, I can like. I don't know, like, just enjoy this more and like move on to other challenges within the sport outside of like this, like that part. Freeze up your mind. Yeah. Yeah, there's some interesting stuff on like acceptance therapy that that has been applied in some in some weight loss interventions that is pretty helpful. Where. If you help the person accept that there is going to be some level of restriction and that they accept and choose. I'm okay with with this versus it's happening to me. It's intervention. I'm on a diet or it's externalized. Then there's less rebellion because to accept something you have to kind of have that internal conversation and involves all parts of you. I remember. I don't know if I even share this with you, but I remember when we were pushing really hard in my 2019 prep, like in either in May or June. Because I had the experience that you were talking about, it wasn't just what was immediately ahead of me. It wasn't just like, I don't want to diet on really low calories and do cardio and experience what that's going to be like. I was actually like, you know what, when I do this, it means that some time in September, I'm still going to be feeling like shit. Like I know that going from this level of lean is in what I did to get here to going to elite levels of conditioning and pushing my seat of self even harder to get there. I'm basically saying, like I've dug this hole and now I'm going to have to lie in it for a little bit. You know, like if you get reasonably lean with the reasonable amount of effort to get there like you diet for a photo shoot. Bro or sis, couple weeks, if you've been doing this for a while, you feel fine. It's like it never happened. And you just slowly start to gain weight again and it's all good. But I was thinking because I had the experience of being there before, I was like, man, this is me to my recovery is going to be like another month. Like I'm going to feel like trash, even eating normally for a little longer. And that was the conversation I had that I'd be like, and I'm okay with that. Like, yes, I'm still going to feel like crap. Um, sometime at the end of this year, multiple months post show because what I did now, four months earlier. And that's something I wasn't a perspective I even had. Like I remember in oh nine. It was just like, I don't know how to get shredded and I will kill myself to get there. And I was afraid of what I even get there. And then once I started beating myself up, I was like, oh, this is really friggin hard. But I had no concept of what was the consequences. So I couldn't even accept that. And I think that's a really important piece is it with the experience. You don't know exactly what's going to happen this year, this season, this off season, this recovery phase. But you you won't be surprised and you'll put a whole lot less meaning. And you know, like the boogie man, the monster under the bed is because it's dark. You can't see what's there. So your worst fear is inhabit that space. And it's the same thing with contest prep. So I think that's a really important aspect of this is, um, I know everyone wants to be the best bodybuilder. Their first season. They want to get shredded their first season. No one expects to throw a 92 mile prior fastball little league, though. No one expects to be able to dunk when they're playing for their freshman year. No one expects to be, you know, Olympian the first time they do an amateur sport. And I think we need to apply that same model to contest prep. It's not just in my big or not have I built enough muscle, but also like, yeah, there should be a stepwise fashion of moving through the conditioning that is individualized to what level of discomfort, acceptance, skill and ability to bounce back and in the in the subsequent season. You know, what's coming not just in the next few weeks, but the next few months or a year. And I think that's a very difficult thing to understand as a competitor. And it's easy to feel like I can speak for a lot of our clients. The coach is trying to hold you back. But and I'll, I'll let you speak on this. But I've had a number of athletes who've come back to me a couple of years later. And they're like, oh, I see why you were so resistant to pushing into those dep, those deep darkness, even though I was willing to do it. Because here's what happened, you know, like, hey, thank you for letting me do what I wanted to do. But now I get it, you know, I don't know, but how many times have you had people come back to you or or have those difficult conversation? I feel like they feel like you're holding them back and why are you doing that? Yeah, it was fine. Everything you said, like, like, just, it was expanded on a timeline. It's like, if you shrink it back down, it's kind of what happens when you're just staring at your cupboards, you know, when you're about to do that thing. You know, like, it's the exact same thing is the exact same thing. So, yeah, it gets easier. Everything about the sport once it slows down in a coach. Like, that's what we're here for is to slow things down for you sometimes. And I like to build in like a lot of like, we all do a lot of autonomy when it comes to the coach. Like, okay, we can do this. We can do that. This is what I'm afraid of in this direction, that direction. There's this whole thing. Maybe you wait and put us down the road. And yeah, with decision making with with with my athletes, they quite often. I'm like, okay, like, I'm I'm really against this and quite often because we have built that sort of relationship. There's certain things. I'm like, you know what? It's a flat out. No, you're going to have to hire someone else for that. Because I refuse to go down that route, but but sometimes it's one of those where they're like, okay, you know what? Just because you feel this strongly about this, but I won't do it. And yeah, many years later, it's just kind of like we can all look back at, you know, situations with their parents, right? Where you're like, damn, like, I thought I knew it all. And they had a point there, you know, they had it. They had a huge point. So, so yeah, again, it gets like it's funny and it's it's things that I think any honest coach will tell you they still kind of struggle with when it comes to their own bodybuilding. But you know, again, like we know what to look out for and it's a lot easier to have less conflict of interest when it is someone has the situations, the situation that you're not like living in day in and day out. So, so yeah, very frequently, very frequently I can it's gone to the point where it's like, yeah, they they they they felt very strongly about something for a few years and then eventually they're like, I'm still bodybuilding today. Well, I'm not bodybuilding in some cases because I realize like this is just not good for me. Yeah. Which is a hundred percent acceptable outcome. I think I think that's something that some people have to get over the fear of that if you really face how this sport is for you, how you feel about it and why you're doing it. You need to be okay with the concept of all this isn't for me, you know, right. Would you still be doing it? Yes. And that's that that's I mean, that's a topic for another podcast, but we have absolutely coached some athletes out of the sport and feel proud of that. Yeah. You know, it's a funny thing though and you know, Amanda, we joked about this on one of the other podcasts you were on. Maybe one of the earliest ones just kind of how like the don't tell nobody secret about therapy is basically you can't figure it out for somebody. The goal is to have them have those realizations. So as a coach, like, yeah, you're crazy right now. You're three weeks out. You're losing your shit. And I'm going to tell you know and based on the trust you'll agree to that, but it's not something you've really internalized. And I think that's the probably the benefit of getting into therapy is that there's no timeline. It's not like, hey, we have to fix your binge eating disorder by Thursday, you know, and that means you can help someone look internally. You can help them see through their own the fog of their own biases. You can can challenge them of course with their permission and you can, you know, be their guide and the in this murky experience of trying to untangle their own thoughts and feelings. And they can come to these realizations, which are powerful and much more permanent. You can't just tell someone what they would have eventually figured out after six months of therapy. Sometimes we have to do that as coaches, but I think I would love to just hear your perspective. I think a good good ending now we could do Amanda is when you have someone and they come to you and this is this is what you're trying to help them with. What does that arc look like? What are the phases they go through and what is how long does it take to get that light at the end of the title. I'm sure it's very individual, but are there certain sure, but are there certain at least phases that might last different lengths or what does that process look like? Sir, I can get like an overview as far as patterns with clients. We usually have this first phase of like frustration and and lack of acceptance and just like wanting to fix the problem and like. the binge is the problem. And then we have another phase of just like becoming aware of all of these other elements that are playing into the binge because the binge is simply a symptom. And after that, we start building our toolbox and that's when we learn different ways of thinking, different ways of managing stress, different ways of interacting with other people. And then right after that phase, that's when we start seeing like a huge dissipation with the benches. And afterwards we get more into like self-actualization work. I think that's helpful. People can kind of understand that the narrative of what the experience is like. First, it's just a problem. You want to separate it from yourself. You're judging it. You hate that aspect of you. You don't want it to be real. Tell me how do I fix this. It's like coming in and saying, no, I don't have cancer. I just got this ugly tumor and the docs like, listen, I would love for this just to be a tumor that we can remove. But we got an issue here. This might take a little more than an exacto knife. And then there's that okay, let's face the problem that acceptance. And then that sounds like the only pathway towards progress. So I think that's really helpful. Yeah, I'm conscious of time. We've had a good discussion. We've around about covered pretty much everything that at least I thought we should cover. But Amanda, you're the expert here. Is there any takeaway messages if you had people listening in to learn more about binge eating, especially in the context of physique sport or just in general? What would you want to say or finish with in this podcast? Well, I definitely want to say if you or someone you know is struggling, definitely reach out to a professional or even just voice it to someone. When we keep it to ourselves, that's when it becomes a bigger issue. We definitely want to reduce the shame and guilt around it, shame and judgment because that's not going to perpetuate it. If someone's in contest prep, please keep in mind of the actual physiological things that that happen. It doesn't necessarily mean that it might be an ongoing problem. If you do binge after a contest prep, some people just leave that with unscathed. But if you do notice that it becomes a pattern. Again, reach out to a professional and have a come to Jesus moment with yourself. Well, there's what Amanda said and that's what I've heard, which is a keto diet, folks. If you want to fix all those issues. But in all seriousness, I think that's really helpful. Birdo, is there anything you want to leave people with before we sign off on the sucker? Yeah, just the bodybuilding. We're focused on the outside, but it's one of those sports where it's done best when you build from the inside out. And I think very often, we get to the point that the outside are kind of impressive and it's like, damn, I have to go back and fix all this stuff. The earlier you catch it, the better off you're going to be because when it's like the more disproportionate it goes, the rougher it is. So get on that. Take care of those insides, too. Take your finger out of that, damn crack. It's just going to spray a little water now. But if you keep letting those cracks spread, we're going to have a lot of. Oh damn. Oh damn. And with that, the best pun that we've had, at least this season in podcasting, folks, I just want to say huge thanks to you, dear listener, for making it all the way through. You probably only took one break to uncontrollably eat Oreos, shout out Jeff Albert's. But make sure you catch us next time on the 3D MJ podcast. This is Eric Helms, Alberto Nunez and our mental health specialist, Amanda Rizzo, who you can find more about on 3DMuscleDirty.com signing off. Hey guys, this is Coach Alberto Nunez. Thanks so much for listening to our show today. Thank you so much for hanging out with us. I wanted to take a moment to remind you guys that we have a giant video library of educational materials at 3D MJVault.com. The vault is a place where we have organized our best information, paired it up with some of our favorite resources and shared with all of you guys in one online database. We have courses on contest prep, hypertrophy, posing, fat loss, postseason recovery and a whole lot more. Most of it is free. Some of it is for purchase to help support this podcast. And we continue adding pieces of updated content to it every couple of months that members always have unlimited access to. Once again, that's 3D MJVault.com and we really hope you like it.