164 - Bridget Dalton of Truth Consulting on Reading the Future Through Culture

[MUSIC] >> Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of The Green Book Podcast. I'm Karen Lynch. I'm excited to be hosting today as I am every time I enjoy doing this very much. But today I have the honor of introducing one of our 2026 future list honorees. So this year's cohort was announced recently. You've probably been tracking that. And Dr. Bridget Dalton has agreed to join us today. First of all, before I even introduce you, thank you for joining me on the podcast, Bridget. >> Oh, you're very welcome, Karen. Thanks so much for having me a very exciting thing to do in January. So I'm delighted to be here and to chat with you today. >> Excellent, excellent. And so let me tell you all just a little bit more about Dr. Dalton. She's obviously one of our 2026 future list honorees. As I've said, she's the head of truth futures at a consultancy called truth consulting. Which if that's not intriguing enough, just know that she's also a, it experienced cultural analysts with a background in semiotics. And we've done a few podcasts with people who have expertise in semiotics. And you'll know that I find the field fascinating. But also just the idea of kind of being a cultural analyst. And somebody who is that tapped into everything kind of cultural movements. I'm just super excited. So again, welcome. And why don't you just expand upon that introduction and tell us more about what you do. >> Thank you so much. Okay, yes. So I'm Bridget Dalton. I'm a head of truth futures, which is a relatively recent addition to an amazing agency, a truth consulting started 17 years ago by a group of kind of rebels in the insight world to shake things up and disrupt the space. And since then, I've really, really solid, really impeccable reputation for, I don't want to call it, I don't like the term primary research. As a semi-attition, I think that has connotations that sort of potentially devalue my specialism. However, as a consultative agency that specializes in really robust quant and really meaningful qualitative research and has a legacy in semi-autics and cultural analysis to boot, we started truth futures when I arrived at truth about 18 months ago or so, with the specific purpose of leaning into the kind of strongly helped belief that in order to understand the future, we have to understand culture. And building upon that principle to not necessarily, I don't want to say track, I think that that also has a weird connotation. But to put our arms around this messy, ever-evolving, convoluted, complex, fascinating, sometimes fun, sometimes terrifying thing, which is culture that has the future kind of baked into it. And using lots of different methodologies and crucially blending with quail and with quant and with AI unstructured data and so on and so forth, we have built truth futures and I'm very, very proud to lead that offer. And I think that the work that we've been doing the past 18 months has been, well, certainly I just humbly say some of the best I've ever done in my career, or I have done in my career. Yeah, I'm growing, and very, very exciting times. I'm so glad to dig into all of that. You know, you are, again, one of these honorees that we only welcome 20 to the 2026 cohort out of the dozens and dozens, dozens upon dozens, nearly 100, I think, sometimes more than 100, sometimes just shy of applicants after even more nominations come through. So what was your reaction when you found out that you'd been named an honoree? Oh my goodness. Well, you know, the clue is in the name. It's I feel terribly honoured. It's really, if I may, I should say I was frankly moved when I was nominated in the first place. I thought that that was a, I was the vote of confidence, my colleagues at Truth nominated me, and I find that really, that's an important part of my job to feel that I really value my colleagues and they value me. So I was really, I was really touched and I felt almost daunted by the prospect of having to justify that nomination. So when I found out that I was an honoree, I was really involved over, I mean, what an incredible thing and I think specifically in the context of early career, that that that means something to me, particularly as somebody who is within the first 10 years of my second career in my life. So I'm a, I think I'm a slightly, I don't know, but I suspect that I might be a slightly rare case in that I'm not necessarily maybe as young as the other honorees, however I'm as green as not green, they're not green, I'm not green, but 10, within 10 years of my career. So I'm very delighted to have been able to experience something like that, despite not being a spring check-in, shall we say, and post-pivot. So I feel very, very honored and also to be in that list with a group of such brilliant and inspiring people and I feel, you know, enter into that community is really, is really wonderful. So thank you and thank you to all of the team at Green Book for that. Oh, well, you're quite welcome, you know, thank you for what you're doing for the industry. You know, we are, Green Book is in service to the industry, we really want to see individuals and businesses within the industry grow and we try to help them in that growth. So when we see the kind of, the applicants come before us and we have a rigorous kind of judging matrix and all that where everybody assesses everybody and then the people rise to the top, each year we're always like, yes, that makes sense that they rose to the top for a lot of reasons. But I do want to just go back to what you said about the difference because I do want to talk about what you did in your previous life. The future list is reserved for those listening who might be saying, wait, isn't the first 10 years in your career? It's the first 10 years in your insights career. So we can mark, you know, we can mark people who started in insights within the last 10 years, fresh out of school or people who came into it. Now there are some adjacent fields where, you know, maybe if you started in marketing and you've come to insights, that's a little blurrier, but you came from academia. And I think, you know, when we have people who have caught in the insights entity that come from academia, they do bring a different lens into it. There's a lot you learn in academia that you can bring into your work as a researcher. And I think that is a, is to me a very not only important entrant into our industry, but a lens that we all could benefit from. How would you describe that sort of transition for you? There are so many interesting directions of travel in the sort of space between academia and insight. And I'd also posit that a career in insight can teach you a lot for academia. So in fact, my exit from academia, and I just so just to tell you the story, my work, my academic work and all of my scholarship was in American poetry specifically in studying and analyzing the notion of kindness in modernist American poetry. So it was quite, I undertook quite an obscure, maybe weird, possibly a advised doctorate, but I did it. And I learnt a lot about teaching, about groups, but also I think crucially about making arguments and sharing ideas. And I think I wanted to do more of that. And in fact, when I was making or thinking about exiting academia, I happened to meet a woman who's still one of my very best friends who was leaving advertising to go into academia. And we passed by each other talking about our respective experiences. And I couldn't wait to get into a commercial environment. What she described, she had been a really successful strategist in the advertising industry prior to becoming now an incredibly successful academic. But I suppose what I would say that I think academia brings is the consistent reference to the exam question. The idea that our analysis, our thinking, our insights, must be clear, well put, not original for no sake. Effectively, what I'm saying is what would, in academia, we talk about the contribution to the field. And I think it's very important to do the same thing when it comes to insights. Contribute to the field of insights, contribute to our client's field of influence, their commercial objectives and challenges. And think and articulate a lot is, I guess, where I see the most crucial overlaps. Yeah, it's so interesting as you're talking, I'm thinking about the mindset shift of when you've completed the research and you're answering the research questions. But there must be a different rigor to use that word, which I've, when I've talked to other other doctors and insights, they've talked about learning kind of academic rigor. But there's something else about being very true to the original question with, and almost like that's my commitment. Like a commitment to the purpose of this research feels a little more intentional than maybe what an insight's professional might do, which is like, oh yeah, I'm seeking answers. But there's a difference between seeking answers and committing to the question, I think, that might be very, very subtle, but seems really poignant to me right now. That's a, that's a very, very interesting point. I think, when I say question, I mean the strategic challenge at the heart of the reason we're all there. And so rather than a provocation, rather than a why, the why is the thing that is so fascinating and keeps me endlessly drawn to semiotic approaches, cultural analysis. But the so what is extremely important to and I think that's, that's arguably a really major difference between this sort of academic space and the insight space. But I also think, and if I may, I find a bit more freedom in commercial insights work. I think being exploratory in your methods and your expression is one of the sort of requirements of innovating an insight. And I think that sometimes with academia, you're working incredibly hard for simple permission to play. And I don't know whether that's what quite what we need still. And I really encourage, obviously we don't, we're not, we're standing on the shoulders of giants, but I think that there's we can experiment and work more rapidly and potentially more creatively in a commercial space with insights and so's that sort of intangible idea of what are we going to do with this. Means we can play an experiment more. Yeah, let's just stay there for a moment because what does, you know, we're talking about, you know, play and experiment, this exploration, even when it comes to methodology. What does that look like for people listening who are like, yeah, sounds great, how do I do that? How, how brilliant, tell us all how. Yeah, yeah, no problem. Okay. I suppose I could talk to semiotics. Yeah. I think you really need to know what you're doing in order to take it for a spin. Yeah. But that doesn't necessarily mean that people with less experience don't have very valid contributions to make to message and approach. I think for me, the sort of, the space that I like to play in is how can I make this mean more to more people? How can I look at the conventions, look at the, not lose the rigor, but tinker an experiment with modes of expression, with styles of storytelling, but remain true to the sort of the core tenant over semiotic argument, which is to make instinct make sense to understand the crises and culture that will provoke the emergent narratives that will be the future that our clients inhabit. I think there's so much, it's so important to understand deeply understand that as your mindset. Then, I think, go nuts. Another thing that I think is really important when it comes to sort of experimentation and innovation is to really, really listen to what other methods do need, where they, where they hit stumbling blocks, where they're incredible and you're not. I think that that's one of the things that I'd say characterises the trajectory of my career is learning more every day that I need to listen better to my colleagues, because I think it's that sort of that kind of weaving together understanding where there are dovetails, understanding where tensions add value and methodologically is, I mean, I'm going to, it's been how long have we been talking 15 minutes and we haven't said AI yet, but I just wear rule, right? I'm pretty dusty academic this way, I've been worked at an AI driven insurgency in the middle of a development director, but that's not replicable, that's not something one can generate. It's a personal thing what we do. Yeah. And understanding that deeply, that's, it's, you know, it's play, but it's also like long-term gardening, cultivation, nurture, understand what you don't know, learn what you can and listen, and I think that's where, that's where at the moment in my career I'm most excited. Yeah, so it sounds to me, and correct me from wrong, just trying to understand kind of the work you do, it starts earlier necessarily, earlier in the process because we're really wrangling with we, it's before, methodologies might be thrown out about types of research to do, and even what the research questions are, but you're, you're kind of laddered up to the higher level of the business challenges, kind of what, what are the big strategic unknown, because, because the, it's, all this listening has to happen there to make sure that you are feeding down to the right things. Am I, am I right in assuming that you're, that truth consulting and truth futures is further up in that? Well, I think, I, I think, ideally, I think that the, the earlier on you can engage cultural analysis as a foundational piece of work, the quicker you can get acute with the, with the, progressive progression of knowledge about the type of research that, that you require, and from a consultancy point of view, yes, absolutely the earlier, the better, the higher up, the better, the kind of extreme stuff, and really that is absolutely, I suppose, in line with our perspective on the significance of culture as being so vital in all of the kind of key aspects of human life, you know, from politics, to pop music, culture, links those two spaces and pulls them together and pushes them apart, and by thinking of culture from that, in that way, we start to understand the direction of travel, and therefore we link back to those kind of larger strategic questions, making informed perspective, crafting informed perspectives on what will need to happen next, but also I would say that it's not necessarily always a kind of, I, I wouldn't want to imply that it's only a high level, but like quote unquote high level operation, it's actually very much about granular tactical thinking, understanding the interplay between different methodologies, and finding out where we can fit to most effectively add value there as well, I sometimes think, as a, I mean my, my, my practice has been semiotics, which I absolutely love as standalone work and insights, cultural strategy work, but, but I also, and I think that it serves a really fantastic role in multi-method insights work, because it quite often creates tension, it quite often seems to somehow, but up against what our qualitative research would tell us, or beg a question from some quant, but from my perspective, that's where the real value lies, I, I don't believe that it is worth using many, many methods to get the same answer. If we use many, many methods, we should have different inflections, we should, it should yield different perspectives, different degrees of longevity and the thinking, and that's where the real major value add in terms of insight comes. And also, I think you can use semiotics as almost the kind of cartilage in a, in a big piece of primary research, the sort of, that what are, what's the connecting tissue that between the numbers, the people, the lived experiences, the why, so I work very, in the trenches too, for sure. Yeah, as we're having this conversation, you know, what happens naturally for me as long as I'm like, all right, now I'm ready for some examples, like I want to see how this all plays out, and make it a little more tangible, right, instead of kind of abstract and theoretical. So, can you give us an example of your work, and if you want to talk about, you know, the example that's in our brief, the, which I want to get to, which was in your future list application, the Ashoka partnership that you had, or any other examples, but let's get, let's get, oh yeah. Okay, so I think there's, there are, there are many, many examples of the type of different types of futures work that we do. I could talk endlessly about the future of sound, which was a multi, sort of multi-sensory exploration for the future of sound for an auto client, that we had, which was phenomenal. And, but I think a recent example, I can't talk, I, I can't talk in too much detail about findings, but I felt that our approach matched our ambition and our sense of a kind of innovative spirit, because we blended unstructured data, AI powered, social and traditional media listening, with semi-autics, with trends, and with some very, very important partnership that I'll mention in a moment, to feed into a big piece of scenario planning that we did that became the foundation for a piece of, a major piece of work for a client of ours that could then fan out and be used to create a kind of unified bedrock of insight and future foresight for our client that could then spiral off into different categories, but we'll always return to that anchored sense of thinking, and we can trace every perspective, or every strategic insight that we provide in that all the way back down to the data. And I love the idea of, I love scenario planning, I think it's a really, it's such an exciting way to think, and I think it has just the right amount of structure to really invite creativity, which I love. So that scenario planning is a very, very useful and frankly agile, I'm into agile, I like things to be nimble and moving and pacy all the time, but the other thing that we did as part of that project is we have a partnership called Tree of Changemakers as a part of Tree of Futures, and it's one of the elements of my role that I'm most inspired by and proud of. So we have a partnership with the Ashoka Network at Truth Consulting called Tree of Changemakers, and if you haven't heard of the Ashoka Network, then that's kind of what they intended, but I guarantee you will have heard of Ashoka Fellows members of this network. It's one of the world's most influential networks of social entrepreneurs, there are over 4000 Ashoka Fellows, the world over all of whom are rigorously vetted, passionate social entrepreneurs who contribute and forge real change for people and planet. So members of the Ashoka Network include, if you're in the UK or know what park run is, Wikipedia, the big issue, the right to repair movement that started in France and it's fanning it around Europe, which is a revolutionary organisation holding domestic appliance manufacturers to account to and beyond that category to empower consumers to repair. And in fact, you go, the Ashoka Fellow who runs that initiative has already changed legislation. So the Ashoka Network is a group of incredibly passionate social entrepreneurs who are all equipped with what we describe as the pre-detection lens and a collaborative mindset. They see the challenges that are facing society, communities, people and planet, and they find insanely effective ways to tackle that. So we're incredibly proud when we're thinking about the future to be able to speak to people who are already changing it themselves as individuals, the level of knowledge and insight, the intimate knowledge and depth of passion that they have for the challenges they're addressing, give us unparalleled insight. So rather than and there's absolutely nothing wrong with the hippest hipster of hipland, we're talking to social entrepreneurs who are dealing with the concrete challenges of today. And we think that's an incredible way to address the future for business. Yeah. And that was baked into that scenario planning. So we were pleased. Yeah, that's awesome. You know, wait, in the quals space, you know, a few years ago, one of the QRCA conferences that we had qualitative research consultants association here in the US. And one of the conferences we were talking about kind of, you know, the interviews with experts, but also it was interviews with not just experts, but, you know, outliers like random people that you wouldn't expect to have an opinion, you know, maybe maybe we need to go talk to inmates. We're exploring personal care. Let's go talk to in prisons and talk to inmates or let's go, you know, talk to, you know, the unhoused and let's talk to populations that are not your, you know, mainstream consumers for lack of a better word and just learn from human beings who will have a completely radically different A, which was, you know, fantastic if you were able to do that kind of work with certain, certain consultants were able to, of course, do that kind of work. So as you're speaking and you're talking about the Shoken Network, I'm thinking to myself, like, that's, that's a brilliant way to get ahead of the future is talking to people who are actually working it kind of in the future. Yeah. Yeah. You know, to make that kind of a change. So very tangible. I love that. So imagining that type of work in partnership with them, like what, what are the opportunities for that type of work for, you know, people out, you know, people who are maybe not in that space. Maybe it's a big brand. You mentioned that you work for this car brand exploring the future of sound. And I know that I have worked with Carrie Group one time, spoke at our, our, our ix Europe event on some scenario planning that they've done with their clients. I was involved in a future movement at, um, IFF, international fragrance of flavors where we explored the future of food and the future of sleep and some other, um, kind of future future, future forward categories. Um, but, but how does this kind of dial into maybe brands like your car manufacturer? Like what do they do with this information, which seems really great to have, but can they execute upon it? Well, that's the, that's exactly back to that sort of earlier conversation we were having about your exam question. Um, and that the, the, the, the exam question really is so what should I do? Um, and that's the insights job that the conversion and that's the consultancy element. I think, um, effectively, I think of a good insight, whether it comes from a social entrepreneur, or whether it comes from a semiotic code, ought to be a provocation that, that asks some questions that, that has a sort of a direction in belt within it, right? Because that, that sense of what we need, if we're going to know what to do next, we need to know why. And that's what these insights all, that's the sort of relationship that they, they generate. And the reason, and, and I guess what I would say fundamentally is about confidence, giving our clients confidence about the decisions that they're making. It needs to be robust in, whichever way robust expresses itself in your methodology, but it has to be, have, have a rational and be founded in some really solid thinking and evidence. And that, and it's the, what next? I mean, with the Ashoka example, so you mentioned, I can give you a specific example, we work with the woman who founded the Kelsey, which is assisted, affordable assisted living, accessible living, rather, in San Francisco and is rolling out around the Bay Area and they're looking at different locations to ask her about what her clients' requirements are when it comes to co-living, when it comes to modular spaces, when it comes to accessibility from, in every different, and in a broad set of aspects, what do the people that she's, her, her organization serves, need? What, what we're hearing about then is an already addressed set of unmet needs, which is, quite often, what our clients need to learn about. And when we think about unmet needs from that perspective, from the social entrepreneur perspective, we are looking at maybe a group of people who are currently underserved, but our hunches that that group, that group may not grow, but those needs may become more, quote, unquote, mainstream. And if a brand understands that in the kind of global trajectory, the poly crisis that we live in today, then they are equipped to start responding to future unmet needs of larger groups. Yeah, yeah. That's a great example. It's such interesting work. I mean, it's such an interesting journey, I would think, for a brand to be on, to kind of step out of what seems so immediate and really think bigger and think broader and think longer term, instead of, you know, oh no, we need to, need to address, we need to address this particular unmet need that is very visible right now, because that's what everyone clamoring about. But to say, let's take a step back and punch it out a little bit. So I love the work, it sounds fascinating. It is, and you know what's interesting about it is that when you, when you were doing scenario playing and you were thinking and 20 years hence, and you're looking at the current pastel data, it's quite clear that there are big changes afoot. Yeah. And when you're trying to look across lots of different markets, it's incredibly challenging to craft scenario map that may accommodate all of them, or every, all of those different markets, all of those different outcomes. But that's the reason that speaking to social entrepreneurs is so useful, because we're, they're not telling us necessarily what to do, but how to do it. Yeah. And how and what to look for and how to start addressing those unmet needs. And I think that's transferable as an insight to our client. That goes back to that travel between academia and insight transferable skills. Yeah. That holistic collaboration is completely vital to the way that we do treat futures. We say the future is now. I mean, where else is it from an insight perspective? So we blend that social entrepreneurs, pre-detection, then semi-autics, lots of different capabilities and try to think. Yeah. You know, you mentioned those transfer, that sort of what's transferable. And it has me curious about skills in general. So skills, I'm talking about the kind of soft skills, right? I'm talking about the skills that are not like, yes, you're proficient in all things AI at this point. That's pretty tangible, right? But I'm talking about the skills that are underlying that, or even maybe it's qualities, or maybe it's just traits that you have that not only brought you to this field, but then, you know, also got you on the on the kind of, you know, 2026 future list, honoree list this year. What do you think those qualities that you exhibit are that have brought you to where you are right now? I think as a self-effacing Brit, it's quite difficult to talk about this, but I will very fair as the American asking you, we talk about this one from other time. I promise I'll do my very best. I think I am curious about understanding, frankly, I'm an enthusiast. I think one of my key defining features and people that I'm close to would probably vouch for this, that I can really get quite enthusiastic about absolutely anything, and that's why I love semi-optics. The most exciting project I've ever done in my life was on milk. It is a fascinating category, it's a fascinating cultural material and object. I still talk about that work. And then I think, so enthusiasm, curiosity, and I think what I've spoken about before is I think resilience. I think humbly I say that I don't generally give up. I'm really dyslexic and I learned to try to, my mother tried to get me to learn the piano and I played it for six years, well, five years and didn't make grade one, but I didn't ever quit. So that was probably something that I should have quit. I learned to play a cello in the end, but my point is that it's not in my nature to be passive in my career, and I feel that when I get knocked, I learn and I'm getting coming to terms with enjoying that to some degree. Thank you so much for just sharing openly also, because I put those out there for the inspiration for others. So our honorees are often looked to by people who are just starting off in the career, career and insights, and they're trying to see what they should rely on for their futures, and I know you've also done some mentoring training others in the field, kind of emerge in talents that you've either seen something in them, or you've just wanted to kind of help them bridge non-traditional backgrounds. So tell me a little bit more about that work that you've done. The mentoring training is an extremely rewarding aspect of what I do. I often, as a semi-attition, different places, it's quite unusual for people to just start as a semi-attition, quite often they're taking a step out of a qualitative role or something like that. So I often, when I have the privilege of mentoring or training people, it's when they're already really good at something else, but they have a curiosity and an enthusiasm to see a connection and make a different case, and I find that incredibly inspiring and really surprising. And I think, honestly, what you're kind of doing a lot of the time when you're mentoring or training people is giving them some guidance and some signposts on how people expect to have this argument made. So here's how you could express that, that brilliant thing that you just said that's like absolutely the best thing I've heard all day. That needs to go into a vocabulary that communicates quickly and effectively and well. What I'm always trying to do is to help people navigate a space so that their ideas, which come from perhaps an outside perspective, which are powerful, new and game-changing, show up well and are unignorable. And I think that's very important. I can't help but wonder, and I know we're pretty much at time here. I can't help but wonder though, if all that work as a poet and studying poetry has shaped your ability to communicate and choose your words for sharing out that whatever that is, that brilliant nugget that just has to be kind of formed and shaped and then shared, you're probably not going to convince me otherwise that all of that training as a poet in academia didn't have something to do with your ability to do that. Oh, I don't know. I mean, I don't know if you could say that academia is where you'll learn in consideration. I think expression is very important. Knowing your audience is really important, but also your own identity and comfort and sense of satisfaction with how you say things. And actually, it's not the academic writing, it's the poetry that probably demonstrates best, that and actually because it's modernist poetry, it's very stripped back, no garbage, try and be as direct as possible, which is the opposite of how I speak, but it's my constant ambition as a writer. I love this. I love this. All right, well, like I said, we were just about out of time, so I just want to ask you if there's something that we had thought that we would talk about that we'd put in the brief that I didn't get to that you're like, I really wish we had covered this before we wrap. Yeah, actually, I think that one thing that I'm very, that I feel that at this point, when I get when I received the honorary title, it comes at the first point in my career where I've talked openly about the impact of dyslexia and neurodiversity on myself as an insight professional. And I think all I would say is that I hope that the industry is changing. I mean, coming from academia, you can trust me when I say I know how cruel it can be if you struggle with conforming to the conventions of written communication or numeracy, also on and so forth. But I think that the industry is changing. I hope that we can get out of our obstructive, oppressive ideas about what what constitutes credible communication. And I think again, we mentioned AI at 15 minutes and now at 42 minutes, so finally that you you can't generate neurodivergence and it's a real gift, I think, but it takes quite a long time to get through all of the the pretty horrible stuff that people will assume about you. So that was what I wanted to say to anybody's listening. I mean, I wouldn't, I don't want to imagine I'm offering inspiration, but if I am, I hope it's changing and being having a different perspective and a different approach is increasingly valuable in this day and age. So good for you. I think that having an open conversation and sharing your struggles will be affecting somebody. And I think that there are people that are that are not open about what they're going through and then other people don't know. They, you know, whether they're whether they're struggling with dyslexia or some other kind of neurodivergent something for lack of a better, I don't want to categorize people, but, you know, whatever, whatever their need may be, it could be a learning need, it could be a presentation need or difference, whatever makes somebody them. I love that you're giving permission to people to not only be who they are, but then also recognize the hardships that that it causes for them. I know what, there's a woman in the industry, she's, she's actually hearing impaired and she's always talking about, you know, kind of accessibility for her. And, you know, we take it for granted, people who can hear, you know, normally, or healthily or whatever, you know, that would be that, that we take it for granted and it's always good to have a reminder. So you are inspiring. Thank you, even if you intend to be. So we'll connect with you, Bridget, if they, if they either want to just know you personally because you're a gem or it gets some words of wisdom for you because you are brilliant or even learn more about your company because it's out of this world. Well, yeah, I mean, all of the above. So I mean, I'm LinkedIn, Dr. Bridget Dolten, we're tree consulting, but if you find me on LinkedIn, say hi, I'll say how bad. Yeah, great, that's great. And you will be coming to one of our events. Anyway, not aery, you'll be presenting at IAX Europe, I assume that's the one that I would have kind of assumed since you are in London. Unless you want me to come to America, I quite like doing that. Well, you can certainly come to America and come to one of our AX events. You and I can plug up that also, but yeah, I think you'll be speaking in Europe. And I just look forward to meeting you at any of the events. So thank you for your time and your and your attention today. I loved it. Yeah, same. Thank you so much. It's been lots of fun. I'm glad I'm glad. And it goes by fast, as I said it would. Anyway, thank you so much again. Also to our editor, BigBetAudio. Thank you for doing what you do. You know what you do more than we do. And we just appreciate you. And to all of our listeners, thank you for showing up, for tuning in, for listening, for watching, for all of the things you do to show up for us. That's why we show up for you. So have a great day, everybody, a great couple of weeks. And we'll see you next time on the Green Book Podcast.