#161 How design industry is changing and what is getting behind us

The things I'm seeing are dying in the design industry are personas design thinking. I think it's been dead and buried for a while now. Just wanted to make sure everyone knows that double diamond. The conversation about agile UX, lean UX, all those conversations. How do we wait in time talking about processes instead of doing the work? Static mock ups, static wireframes and static showcasing of your thinking is becoming unexcusable with all the possibilities we have for building more realistic demos and prototypes. The Figma obsession we're moving outside that tool, not just a tool. I mean, Figma will still be there, but thinking in this tool system, there are so many possibilities that we can't get attached to just one thing and then idolize it. And then also the rigid rules and dogmatic UX like the ones that you see, the very senior UX designers that have been doing it for 30 years preaching that this is the only right way to do UX. This is what you need to do. This is how much you need to learn all that kind of rigid conversation that doesn't accept experimentation and fluidity is dying. I love designers and non designers. Hello, anyone listening to this podcast? Welcome to Honest UX Talks. I'm joined by my partner, Anfisa. And today we will be talking about how the design industry is changing and what's getting left behind. Hopefully not us, but let's see whether some of the methods and processes, maybe some tools, maybe some artifacts that industry is slowly living behind as it transforms, influenced by AI and different other changes that this industry is now going through. But before we get started, I just want to take a moment to thank Week's Studio for sponsoring our conversations. I've been reflecting on tooling lately and one of the things that we will be touching on in this episode is the fact that there won't be one tool to rule them all. Like the Figma kingdom that we used to live in for a couple of years, like everything was Figma. Everyone was obsessed with Figma, perfecting your Figma skills and so on. I think now the tools are being more spread out and niched and they're doing certain parts of the process better. And you're seeing a lot of competition and a lot of overlaps and a lot of experimentation in the market. So I don't believe in this one tool to rule them all kind of conversation. And if you think about it, I think the future is more about an ecosystem of tools that communicate very well with each other. And the Figma to Week Studio plugin is the perfect example for that. So yes, you have Figma, you're designing it Figma. But then you can transform our Figma designs into high converting advanced websites very quickly with Week Studio, which is a more sophisticated platform for agencies and enterprises and you can deliver at scale. And using Figma to Week Studio plugin is very seamless. And so this is where I feel the industry is going very easily move from one medium to another. Fluently transition from Figma to Weeks to your tools and monitor metrics. And when you have your marketing assets and connected to social media and automations for social media and your email and your ecosystem and notion spaces. And so everything will happen very fluently and interconnected. If you want to take your designs from Figma to Week Studio now, you just have to install a plugin, copy the Figma file URL, go to Week Studio, you see you have the option to import from Figma under tools. And then you just export it to Week Studio. Top-level frames are important as full pages and frames as sections. Of course, cleaning it up like having proper styles to maintain design consistency, typography colors is important, but it's just very easy to bring your designs to life with adding more on top of your Figma work in Week Studio, like no code animations, agency management tools and more. So you can go as far as you can and want to and then move into the next medium where you take it even further and so on. It becomes this adaptive growth journey of your experience. So a huge fan of this concept. So yeah, something to reflect on. Now let's jump into our conversation for today. Before we do that, I just want to open our regular conversation with how have you been, my dear friend and ask Anfisa how her past week was. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Honesty X Talks. We're always excited to have you back. Thank you so much for listening to us this year. So talking about the last week or two, what was there? Let me think. It's basically beginning of December right now. And I am kind of slowly get into the end of the year, some frapping up a lot of projects, preparing some things for Hendoff. Yeah, actually rubbing up some campaigns. I was doing the campaign for Black Friday in the community. She's exciting and also reflecting honestly starting to reflect around like next year plans for community. I have a lot of ideas and I'm too hyper excited. So I need to start prioritizing what do I want to commit to? What do I want to start testing? For example, some things we definitely will be doing next year is introducing AI craft workshops because a lot of the designers today struggle with fantastic thinking but lacking the AI craft in their portfolios or just in their work. And I want to help designers to just upscale a little bit while we're looking for jobs. As well as thinking of maybe changing some structure in the community. We will see. I'm kind of still reflecting, so I'm not going to tease it too much yet. But for sure, there will be a little bit more structure. Yeah, also I'm excited to come back to a content game, by the way, because I'm starting to post again a LinkedIn. I'm starting to post on email more frequently. Just start sharing a little bit more structure and information because there's a lot of information every week discussed in the community. Individual stories, how people transform, how they overcome certain fears, how they overcome certain challenges, how they land jobs, what helps them, what are the unique, non-trivial ways to get there. And there's just so many stories that I want to tell. It's just that I never had time. But I hopefully will have time begin next year. So I'm kind of preparing, being a little bit hyped up about this. So yeah, exciting times ahead, but still also we need to wrap this year off and looking forward to that as well. I hope that next two weeks, we will also record another episode for the wrap of the year. How about you? How is your end of year? I know you also have some exciting updates. Yeah, I think the most exciting one is that this is the week we're now on December 8th. And on December 10th, I'm launching my biggest baby project. It's called AI Design OS. It aims to become source of truth for how we design for AI surfaces and AI interactions. This is let's say it's V1. So you can treat it as a beta, more of an experimental structure. It's not going to be exhaustive or comprehensive, but there's going to be a lot of value in it already. But I decided to not wait until it's completely done and covering everything because that would be probably in 10 years since everything is changing and needs to be updated and needs to be revisited. So it's going to be a living organism, a living artifact that's transforming along with the market. And I have to maintain and revisit constantly and challenge constantly. So it's a perpetual work in progress. So I decided to go on and start dropping parts of it as I disambiguate and clarify chunks of the AI design problem. So this is going to be where I'm at at the moment. I do have a lot of research documentation worked on for other things that will not be captured in this V1. Things such as all the patterns in AI. This one will only feature the main paradigms, how they interact with each other. Principles for designing with AI. What are the modalities for surfacing AI in an interaction with the human, but there's going to be much more coming up. And it's also, I hope, it's going to be a community informed, a collaborative document, if you want, where everyone can chime in and suggest what things need to be in there. Like AI narratives, how we communicate AI, how we represent AI in UI, like, should it be purple, should it be what's sparkle, should it be a person, do we un-tropomorphize it or not? It also has a lot of philosophical things in it. And just a way to think about AI properly. It's artistic, the design concept is very interesting. And yesterday we just decided to make it in Pantone. Pantone, I never knew how to read it. Pantone, color of 2026. And so it's going to be also a design example for how to include this color, which is a very small Easter egg. Launching on Wednesday, what I'm asking for the community, if you're listening this week or the week after or six months after, check it out. It's in the show notes and share it with the world because everybody can contribute to it. Everybody can help, disambiguate, and define what we're doing in this very weird space together. So please chime in. Please participate. Please reach out to me and let's build this together. With that being said, let's jump into the conversation of today and discuss about what the design industry is. Slowly, maturedly, leaving behind as we move into this new era of AI and not just AI, but different dynamics in the market, different ways of working in teams, different processes, different everything feels. It's adjusting and adapting and evolving. And so I do have a couple of usual suspects that I feel are the first things that are slowly dying. But I'm going to let you go first and tell me what you've noticed is fundamentally transforming. Absolutely. Yes, this year was quite interesting, right? So it's also quite nicely fits into that reflection and a year kind of theme because this year, unlike the last two years when we were just scared, hyped, experimenting early on with AI, this year, AI became a part of everything we do. And we just recorded another episode about it, right? So it's already here, it's changing the paradigm, it's changing the way we work and that already means, it's like a cyclic world. Like basically everything in a world of cyclics, I mean, some things are new and some things are replaced in the old things, some all the things needs to go. And I also like to compare design industry to any other industry with this innovation curve. You know, like this innovation curve where you have the early market and there have the gross market and you have mature market when it's picking and then this line in market where it's either end of life or there is like a transformation going on that gets into something new, completely different. If maybe two years before we were in the early market of AI, where our classic design things, notions were still, not as if possible, but there's still present. And I'm talking about things such as, you know, design processes, double diamonds, design thinking processes, something we can't talk about here in this podcast. I think early years of this podcast in 2020, we were just talking about those design double diamond processes, design sprints, design workshops in a classic way, like design, yeah, design sprints, lightning decision jams, et cetera. Today, these linear processes, I feel like they're the first ones to be chopped off on the market. So that means that we already passed the mature market stage and I think in the last maybe two, three years they were in this line in market. And I think at the moment they are not to say they're running its course. I think they're evolving into being something different. So when we talk about the double diamond process, we typically talk about it as, this is this concept, right? We should follow it, we should check the boxes, we should practice design thinking, we should build the empathy for the users, we should do those personas and all those other artifacts we used to talk about. And I even have the course about this. I think these are already given and I don't think we need to practice them religiously. I think just where we're getting at right now is this shape of AI change in the world. We're getting into, first of all, we need to be more critical of those tools because not always they're productive to us. Sometimes they're counterproductive, then sometimes they're eating up our resources, which we don't have. Because again, the speed of development is changing completely today. But some of them still could be useful. Like even personas, I could still find the use for them, but they're not need to be as religious as we use to talk about them or teach them to practice, right? I think some of those things, not to say they're dislining completely, but they are becoming not important anymore, I would say. They become secondary, if irrelevant at all, sometimes. Some of those tools, like design thinking, for example, I think even back in my way of story, talking about the design thinking, like double diamonds and everything like that. Back then, it was already something we were stipulating that it's not a process that we have to follow. We thought it as it is a process. We teach it, we preach it, but actually, it's not a design thinking process we have to follow. It's more of a mindset, I think, even in the original introductions of design thinking, it was always discussed as a mindset, where you have to, you know, their verge could converge, for example. So this mindset could still be applicable. It's not a process we have to religiously follow and check all the boxes, it's already definitely irrelevant, but it's a mindset that you could apply in certain projects. So now, with the market that has matured, we are coming to a realization that some of those processes, not to say that they're irrelevant, they might be more of a mindset, and they might be applicable to certain project types, but not all of them. We don't have to always go through the process, if you know what I mean. So it's not linear anymore. I guess that's where I'm getting it. We have to be very agile in way we're thinking. We have to adapt to timeline's resources, expectations of the market. If you want to win in the market, we sometimes have to jump right into the solution and something we constantly spoke before, like don't dive right into the solution in space. First, think about it. But sometimes when the market is so competitive, and maybe the competitive edge is not building the right thing, but sometimes it's just experimenting and learning out of experiments, and maybe figuring out what you didn't know, by just doing some things. That is something that's changing. And sometimes again, you could experiment and learn something you didn't expect, and which basically brings us to this innovator space, like you learn by doing not always thinking. But again, there are also projects that haven't higher stakes, where sometimes you still definitely have to think before doing. And that means again, using that divergent, convergent mindset, when you first learn if you're doing the right thing, and then you commit and doing the thing right. My bottom line here is that there are definitely things we used to do that will not be coming important moving forward. There would be maybe tools we could use if it's necessary, but definitely just a tool. And we have to be very critical and really think in terms of what's relevant for the project for the resources that I'm having, and what's it's takes? What's the business bet that I'm taking? Is it the innovation? Is it the experimentation? Or is it really like building a thing right? And then using all those things we used to preach like they must before load? Now it's not anymore. And now we decide which direction do we take? Building and then thinking, or thinking and then building. And tools like design personas. Is it with design sprints? Is it with that kind of workshop? Or this kind of workshop? They just become a part of the tool set. We might use it, might completely not use anymore. So that's where I feel like we are evolving in the design process. The market is very mature today. Even more of this, the sliding market where we have to reinvent ourselves, obviously with the help of AI. What are your thoughts about it, Yana? I love some of the points you started with. I am actually just going to run through my list. I prepare for this episode and then go deep into each of them. On that very deep, we don't have that much time. But the things I'm seeing are dying in the design industry. Our personas, design thinking. Just wanted to make sure everyone knows that. Double diamond, the conversation about agile UX, lean UX, all those conversations. How do we wait some time talking about processes instead of doing the work? Static mock ups, static wireframes and static showcasing of your thinking is becoming unexcuseable with all the possibilities we have for building more realistic demos and prototypes. The Figma obsession, I think, we're moving outside that tool. Not just a tool. I mean, Figma will still be there, but like thinking in this tool system, like there are so many possibilities that we can't get attached to just one thing and then idolize it. And then also I think you kind of mentioned it as well. You use the world religious and I use the word dogma. I think the rigid rules and dogmatic UX, like the ones that you see, the very senior UX designers that have been doing it for 30 years, preaching that this is the only right way to do UX. This is how much you need to learn. This is all that kind of rigid conversation that doesn't accept experimentation and fluidity is dying. And so I'm gonna go briefly through all of them. And then maybe we can talk a little bit about how to prepare for these changes, what do they really mean? And kind of like very brief guide or advice for what to focus on, if these things are irrelevant anymore. So personas, I think, were something that were controversial for a long time in the design industry. And it wasn't clear if they're good or bad because the key when it came to them was how you use them, like the context, how informed they are by actual data, by interviews, people were just creating fictional personas out of nowhere, just imagining, I think this might be our user. And that kind of defeated a purpose of a persona, which was to be informed by interviews, data, statistics, whatever surveys research. And people were creating fictional personas in workshops just for fun or just to kind of have this person we're building for. And then if it's not realistic, if it's not grounded in anything that you've learned, of course, it does more harm than good. And then another big problem with personas was that people weren't actually using them afterwards. So they were just a fun little workshop artifact and activity. And then nobody came back to revisit, evolve, rediscover them. So they were treated like as this one time effort that had nothing to do with the process after them, which is, again, defeating the purpose of a persona, which would be to permanently keep the person you're designing for or the archetype you're designing for in mind. And people were just doing, creating them and abandoning them. So that's why I think they weren't very successful as a thing in the design industry. And now we're moving past them and going closer to just being there in the user community, in the user's world, which I think is a good thing. Moving into design thinking, I think design thinking was a perfect storm that led to this innovation theater. And this innovation theater, even though it seemed that it democratizes design and makes everyone think about design. We're coming in the same room to think about why design matters and it's so important. It actually diluted the power of design because now it just became like this workshop play stuff, fun we do on one day, on a workshop, like everybody takes a day off from their regular tasks and then we do that design, we think about design, we've done design thinking and now back to our regular stuff. And they forgot about everything that went on there and very rarely they transformed it into an actionable set of measures or a plan or something they could act on and transform into real value. So again, this was an innovation theater and more like, let's just do this 'cause it's what we're supposed to do. Double diamond, I'm forever a fan of it, but I feel it's not very aligned with the reality of 2025 and 2026 and moving forward. I do believe we're still doing it in a different way. Like we're learning with LLMs and users now and then we're making decisions with LLMs and users and then we're moving into solutionizing with agents and vibe coding tools with different instruments and a different mindset. A mindset that's more geared towards building and experimenting and learning in the wild, learning out there instead of learning in a protected environment isolated from the real world and then going out in the real world to see what our bet was, what our hypothesis was, was correct. So now you're learning in the wild by building these tools which leads me to the second, I'm gonna jump over lean agile UX. I just think it's too boring to even discuss. So moving into building, learning by building, I think that static mock ups and demos and designers that showcase their work without telling a story, especially internally, not just in their portfolio or when they talk to recruiters, especially in the company, you really need to be able to tell stories and now we have all the instruments we need to create motion, to create moving artifacts, to create dynamic experiences, to create a real feel that that product might have through vibe coding or just learning some front and it's just so many possibilities now to create prototypes that move and convince and feel realistic. Which is also very connected to the next point of Figma Obsession, I do feel Figma is very much needed for large orts and complex teams and complex ecosystems. I don't see dying anytime soon, but some parts of what Figma did are being replaced by other tools and I'm gonna give a very personal example. When I started building design OS with my co-designer and builder, I created this big Figma file where I documented everything in my mind we were gonna do everything in Figma and then agree on what we're doing and then move into Figma. But we ended up ignoring Figma completely, we didn't use it at all, we just moved into Figma because there you could get a real fast sense of, I think this hover effect is better, I think this is how it should move and so you could get a real feel, much quicker experiment and see where the environment takes you. Like the medium became the message in a way, right? to reference the famous quote. And then all of these kind of fall into this large umbrella of giving up dogmatic thinking, putting things into boxes, being obsessed about process and rules and the checklist and the linear process like you said and then making things in a certain way, that's the thing of the past. Like if you can't adapt to moving outside whatever your process was until now, you're gonna have a hard time surviving in this market 'cause it's very ambiguous, it's very in a way unstable as it transforms very rapidly so we really need to be able to adapt and give up dogma as an industry and I think that people who aren't doing it, you're seeing them on LinkedIn. They're not getting jobs anymore, they can't find roles, they have trouble resisting and existing in this market. So yeah, those were my thoughts, do you wanna add anything to it? - I can definitely talk a lot about how people with those, let's put it this way, market logart type of portfolios to reusing existing templates and cookie-counter portfolio is this linear processes. I definitely have to struggle and I still see this a lot in the community so I could just confirm that it is happening and many times people have to re-teach themselves off. Yeah, this is what I've learned. I took the bootcamp, they taught me this process, I put together a case study based on this process, why I can't find jobs anymore and now I have to give people like this new market reality check off. Hey, unfortunately, the paradigm has changed and now you learn the process great. Keep it, it's your mindset. Now don't just really just talk about it. Don't put it as this is what you've learned, this is what you did and cause these portfolios focusing on what tasks you did and not what outcomes you have created. Just don't make a cut anymore and that's the thing I have to teach every single member who joins the portfolio. Some people already understand that and some people can't prepare it and already even the sulfur of function exercises about what are they pitching in the market today? But some people, and I would say majority of the people are definitely still in that mindset off. Yeah, well, we're still focusing on double diamonds just to clarify something. I don't think that human center design is going anywhere in case if it sounded like that. I just want to make it super clear that I think human center design is still a thing and it's been around for like 120 something years. So it's there, it's just that the shape of it, the tools, the processes, the artifacts of it are changing and if you want to start winning the market having the competitive advantage, then yeah, you have to start thinking of how do you pitch yourself in the crowded market and what tools, what artifacts, what areas are you going to explore? And things we used to do, like you want to mention that, especially like the Figma obsession type of thing are going away and as you could see, there are very noisy places to be in. They are not helping you with the competitive advantage. So it's this innovative area where you might jump in, become early adopter and see what else you could like do today in order to bring business outcomes because the business is still a thing right now. Human center design is still a thing. How do we get there? How do we talk? How do we pitch ourselves? With which tools, which which artifacts? That is what's currently reinventing itself and that's basically the conversation that we have today. And just another small point that as you were talking, I thought of checking out those design gods. And remember how we used to have the design gods, like even five years ago during the peak of the COVID. Like we used to talk about N and G as the most important design gods library, Tartspool, obviously every, every design book that we were read, they're still relevant because they're talking about the mindset but that obsession with design fathers, grandfathers, gods and the material are gone because a lot of those people who were talking about the processes given us very practical tools. But today the market is kind of changing and I even double checked on some of those people who usually talk of design gods and grandfathers. I don't even see there getting any traction online today. A lot of the people who are talking about the craft, competitive advantage, AI, that's where the attention is. That's where the interest is. And now it's really like game on, a lot of people are just experimenting, obviously. Instead of following the bit in place. I resonate with what you said. I also adjusted the people I trust and the people I believe in. The voices I follow in the institutions, I follow in. Ideal had a very controversial couple of years and then group as well, Don Norman had a rough time on Twitter for a long time and there's just a lot of challenging those gods and what was the status quo in terms of design leadership and now I think that it's much more democratized and scattered and horizontal and there are people you go to learn something. That's their let's say specialty or they are very good at it. Like the best people in motion design, the best people in graphic design, the people with AI, the people now we're more into guilds and design which is better opportunity for learning if you ask me. Yeah, so the last question I wanna ask is if I'm a designer that has a hard time figuring out what is going on now and what am I supposed to do next with all these things, some things are dying, new things are emerging, what is the right mindset or the right approach or the right plan to have in mind in order to identify if you're doing something irrelevant and identify how to renew your design ethos and the way you think about design. Maybe you don't even know, maybe people are now occurring for the first time that personas aren't good anymore and now we don't do design thinking and maybe it's the first time they hear that and a lot of people in the industry have no idea that we're not dogmatic anymore. We don't do things like we used to. Like how do you adjust and understand what's going on and plan for it? Yeah, that's a very good question and also quite a challenge in one because I see a lot of voices today even on LinkedIn speculating that we don't feel jealous for junior designers. Not only because the market is harsh, but also because there is no simple way to learn design. It's all about your drive to learn yourself being almost interperneural in your journey 'cause you have to learn, you have to experiment, you have to build network, you have to build and break, you get to introduce yourself to the networking, learn from people you want to trust, learn who to trust, build the critical thinking, it's really becoming this kind of roller coaster journey for junior designers. And of course my answer to this and take it with a grain of salt because I'm certainly biased but it's joining the community, surrounding yourself as the people who either went through it or going through this, who you could relate to, who you could you learn from and also of course following the people you like to trust, people you feel like associated with you, who you want to be similar to or like building your own guilds like you're on a set right, finding people who's guilds you like to follow, learn from them a little bit here and there and building your own custom curriculum. And of course mentorship is playing a crucial role here as well. I think finding the person you trust who genuinely wants to help you to build this sort of support you going through this curriculum, building activity is super important. So I don't think mentorship is going anywhere. I feel like we still, and I think we recently discussed this. It will be fantastic to have this pair of people have been in the industry of, I don't know, for 10 plus years who have become a little bit more skeptical and this fresh energy, fresh perspective, join together, working together and literally encourage each other with new ideas, angles, new ways of thinking because that's where you kind of get this magic out. Get in yourself somebody who's excited to help you surround yourself with community of people who can get you feeling a part of something, get you excited, kind of almost gamify yourself this process but still be very critical about your personal curriculum, especially when it comes to your personal skills because we all come into industry with our serene baggage. Some of us have very direct, transferable skills experiences. Some of us have zero experience, zero understanding, zero idea, zero perspective. Some people need a much bigger market introduction. Some people need a very specific dive deep into certain areas. Maybe I need to focus on craft and just go all in there. Some people need to focus on, okay, I have a little bit of everything. My skills are balanced but definitely still in the early stage in like maybe junior slash middleweight positioning. Here are the areas I want to leverage because they align with my personality. Maybe if you know you're a workshopper, go dive deep in workshops and make this your competitive advantage. So when you pitch yourself, you're still middle but you have your strong leverage and sort of something to position yourself at and again, know which companies, for example, will need those skills where you present yourself so that you become unbeatable comparing to the rest of the market and things like that, right? In a way, it sounds still very general but it's a lot of critical thinking, building your own curriculum based on your current baseline as well as surrounding yourself with people who can help you figuring it out, figuring out the tools, the guilds, the resources, the information that you should start surrounding yourself with. If community is not an answer or the mentor or somebody who you want to be alike like, who can guide you through this journey and help you go through the noise and bullshit sometimes in the market 'cause there's a lot of noise today. Pick in the sort of direction and stick into this is what becomes your strengths which is really hard to do but you have to start just jumping through everywhere and go nowhere. It's really easy to do. So I think pick in the direction and stick into this is one of those key things that special early designers today have to follow through. What do you think you wanna? - I agree with everything you said. It's not as fun when we're in alignment but we are. I do believe that communities are now more important than ever. They used to be a vehicle for resources and kind of what's the next process and give me a vent diagram and a pyramid of I don't know what and this is what we used to do before like discuss processes and stuff but now I think there's also an aspect of emotional connection and camaraderie and just being together in this and then someone figures out look, this is what's happening in my company. We're not doing that thing anymore or all the designers now have access to a coding environment like Intercom did, right? And so you learn from those people. So I think the most important to go to the essence of what this means. I think conversations are more important than ever and somehow because of the drain and the exhaustion and the burnout and the noise in the market. We don't have the energy for these conversations anymore but I think they're more important than ever. That's the only way to figure out what is going on is by talking to other people who are also experimenting, learning, testing, seeing, changing, adjusting and I think that what we should be doing more of is just half conversations and it could be a one-on-one just reaching out to a designer you like or has shared an interesting thing or their process or their output or whatever they vibe, go to it and reach out and ask them, "Hey, can we chat about it?" Like, what did you learn when you did that? What were the challenges? How was it received in your company? Look at the people who are maybe doing AI design inside our company or going for a new role. Creative technologist, which is not a new role but let's say I see a lot of designers moving in that direction. A lot, a couple, just a few. But I've seen that. So the question is try to have your own research process like apply the design principles to your own connection to the design industry, to your own existence within the design industry and try to discover what's going on. Mostly by running interviews, right? Talking to people, having conversations. That's my last piece of advice. Do you want to add anything? I mean, just to plug that they could do this into your ex-design community, just in case if anybody's curious. Like I said, I think next year that's what I'm planning, intending at least. Do I, I feel what you just said? Those conversations and learning from others that we need to nurture more. And I really want to start pairing people together to learn from each other, circulate, almost have like coffee dates every week, learning from each other, but then learning together, but then figuring it out, coming back together, sharing. So I feel like it's the conversation that I really want to start nurturing more. But yeah, like I said, no spoilers yet. Next year we'll show up. Anyways, you're welcome to check out the community and see if that's something for you. I'm also going to add my WhatsApp group. If I have a little WhatsApp group with designers, that's not a proper we meet with non-Zoom or at least not yet, but it's a WhatsApp group where you can quickly ask any question or just vent and talk to people. I will add that link as well. So me and Amfi have been doing community work for a long time here. Yeah, I think that's it. Thank you for tuning in. If you have any suggestions for what we should unpack, discuss, challenge, reflect on. Next, send us your ideas. If you want to support us, share this episode or whatever episode you like and are writing, we wouldn't mind to have a good rating for me. And see you in the next episodes or the past episodes. Bye everyone. Bye bye.