Speaker 1Hey, what's going on? This is James Kennedy and welcome back to the James Kennedy podcast. I just want to say a quick thanks to everybody for checking out the podcast so far and sharing it, leaving comments and subscribing and leaving ratings and reviews. I really appreciate it. It really helps the reach of the podcast and it's also nice to know that these conversations are being enjoyed as well. Today we are going to be talking about Israel and Palestine. Now this is an issue that is intensely divisive and anyone that follows me online knows where I stand on this particular issue because I've been very open and vocal about it many times. But I'm going to be giving the floor over the day to our guest who is calling in live from Palestine who is going to help us make some sense of what is oftentimes a very messy, complicated and emotionally charged issue. And I hope that this chat is going to give you a good compact hours worth of information with some history and background as to why we're at where we are today, some possible solutions and what you can do to help and get involved. Our guest today is on very tight time, so I'm going to get straight on with it. Dr. Yara Hawari is the Senior Policy Analyst at Al-Shabaka, the Palestinian Policy Network, as well as being a tireless campaigner for the Palestinian cause, an author and a political commentator. There is no one better to speak with us on today's issue than Yara and I'm really thankful to her for giving us her time today. So calling in live from Palestine, Dr. Yara Hawari, how are you?
Speaker 2I'm very well. Thank you so much for having me on the show.
Speaker 1I'm glad to hear it and thank you so much for giving us your time today. I'm very glad to hear it and thank you so much for giving us your time today. We really do appreciate it. Before we jump right into the issue, would it be possible to give the listeners just a quick overview of who you are and what it is that you
Speaker 2do? Yeah, sure. Well, as you mentioned, I'm an academic writer and policy analyst. I am Palestinian. I live in Palestine, but I also spent quite a long time in the UK studying secondary school and higher education in the UK. But now I'm in Palestine, and I'm in Palestine, and I'm in the UK, but now I'm back in Palestine.
Speaker 1Well, I'm glad to hear that you're well, because I know that it is a very intense time over there at the moment. And this is an issue, as I said, that is extremely divisive. So for the purposes of clarity and setting some context, would it be possible to get a brief sort of history lesson and get some background onto why we're at where we're at today in Israel and Palestine?
Speaker 2Yeah, and I think it's such a, as you said, it's such a divisive issue. And I think sometimes it's purposefully overcomplicated. So I'll try and provide a sort of very succinct history. I think firstly, we have to identify correctly what is happening to the Palestinian people. This is not a conflict. We hear that time and time again in mainstream media. What's happening to the Palestinian people is a process of settler colonialism. So what is settler colonialism? Well, I think many people will probably be familiar with bog-standard colonialism. An imperial power goes to another country, usually in the global south, and conquers it in order to exploit the land and the people for the profit and benefit of the imperial motherland. But with settler colonialism, it's different because the colonialists are seeking to settle, to create a new homeland exclusively for them. There's this Italian scholar called Lorenzo Vericini, who wrote a book about settler colonialism. And he wrote a book about settler colonialism. And he explains this very well. He says that with colonialism, the colonialist says to the indigenous or the native, you work for me, whereas the settler colonialist says to the indigenous or the native, you go away. And some examples of settler colonial projects include the United States of America, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, Algeria, and these latter two are actually South Africa and Algeria are considered examples where, in fact, the settler colonial project was actually defeated. So we have to look at when Zionist settler colonialism began in Palestine. And this predates 1948, which is usually considered as the starting point. Zionism is understood as this political movement that calls for establishing a Jewish nation state in Palestine with a Jewish majority. But it's increasingly being understood by many, many scholars as a settler. And so, you know, there's this idea that, you know, settler colonial movement. And if we go back to 1897, this was when the first Zionist Congress took place in Switzerland. And in this Congress, they established a program where they called for the establishing of a Jewish state in Palestine and to begin coordinating the settlement of Zionists there. And this was what they would consider as a solution for the Jewish question. And, of course, the Jewish question was the rise in anti-Semitism in Europe, pogroms, increasing alienation. Now, remember, this was before the Second World War. Right. And so this was seen as a solution to emancipate the Jewish people from persecution. And so the Zionist Congress was the first to organize and marshal the colonization efforts in a very centralized and effective way. But what was the impact? What was the issue? The issue was that Palestine was already inhabited. It wasn't an empty land. So the question of what to do with native Palestinian Arabs really animated the early discussions of the Zionist movement. But there was a general consensus that these people would have to be removed somehow, either through some kind of agreement or by force. But there was a, you know, there was a consensus that there would be no way to establish a Jewish majority state in Palestine without displacing much of the native population. And you don't have to believe me or Palestinian academics that Zionism is a settler colonial movement. You can actually hear it from the horse's mouth. If you look at the writings of the early Zionist founding fathers, you see that they all talk about the Zionist movement as a colonial one. And you have to remember that this was a time when colonialism was a very accepted form of rule. So these founding fathers, including Herzl and Jabotinsky, were all talking about Zionism as a colonial movement with pride. And so fast forwarding a little bit, Palestine in the early 1900s was still under the Ottoman Empire's rule. And we know then that the Ottoman Empire was in decline and European powers started to eye up the region. And there were all kinds of different treaties and agreements that basically carved up the spoils of the Ottoman Empire, including in the Middle East, where we saw all these borders being drawn up that didn't exist before. And this included the Sykes-Picot Agreement in 1916, which was basically Britain and France deciding what territories they wanted. No surprise there. Britain wanted the land of Palestine, and they were granted it by the League of Nations as a mandate. Now, this mandate was basically a fancy way to describe a colonial entity. It was supposed to be a system in which Palestine would be prepared for eventual self-rule, but the reality was very different. We also saw in 1917, something called the Balfour Declaration. I mention it because it is an incredibly important document that a lot of Palestinians refer to when they talk about Britain's complicity in what happened in Palestine. The Balfour Declaration was a letter written by the British Foreign Secretary, Arthur Balfour, to Lionel Walter Rothschild, a Zionist leader, in which he expressed the British government's support for a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Basically, he was giving away something that he had no right to give away So, the Zionist movement began settling Jewish settlers in Palestine during this period, the mandate period. The British actually greatly facilitated the build-up of Zionist institutions, the appropriation of Palestinian land. They incorporated a lot of the Zionist settlers into their administration because, of course, they were considered better, more trustworthy workers than Arabs. And, of course, there was just a general affinity towards Zionist settlers more than there was to Palestinians, who they were considered as natives beneath them, uncivilized, et cetera. Now, the British were very unsuccessful in their ruling of the mandate in many ways. They were incredibly cruel to the Palestinian population. They terrorized the Palestinian population. They prevented the Palestinian population and society from flourishing. There was a great revolt in 1936, which is referred to in Arabic and by Palestinians as the Great Revolt. It was an uprising against British rule by Palestinians, in which many Palestinians were killed. It was brutally crushed. But this was really, this 1936 uprising and the crushing of it, really, it was a great uprisings against British rule by Palestinians, in which many Palestinians were killed. But this was really, this 1936 uprising and the crushing of it, really, had very dire consequences over a decade later. We saw a lot of political leaders being assassinated, being arrested, and hanged, weapons confiscated, confiscated basically a demobilization of the the palestinian armed resistance and so it's no surprise that you know over a decade later in 1948 when the zionist movement began taking over that the palestinians were completely unequipped uh to to deal with what happened so the british pulled out of the mandate in palestine it was they were really um according to their own standards failing miserable miserably and they decided that they couldn't uh handle the situation between the zionist settlers and the palestinians which was growing uh more tense and and more violent by the day and so they decided really to pull out just in one go and there's a common saying among palestine among palestinians that the british basically handed over the keys to the zionist movement and that's really what they did you know in many cases they left their you know weapons supplies um and all their documents uh there for the taking um now just in the lead-up i should say to 1948 which palestinians called the nakba the catastrophe the zionist movement was busy collecting information and intelligence on palestinians and palestinian localities in preparation for what they would consider the zionist movement and the palestinian localities preparation for what they would consider the final war or the final push to conquer Palestine for themselves. So they were incredibly well equipped. And in 1948, that's really when, you know, things started to kick off. The Zionist paramilitary forces began taking over more and more land, began expelling Palestinians from their homes and their villages. There were many massacres. It was a very organized plan to ethnically cleanse Palestine of its Palestinian population. And in the end, what we saw was nearly 500 Palestinian villages and towns being destroyed and depopulated. And around 800,000 Palestinians were expelled from the land. And in the end, what we saw was nearly 500 Palestinian villages and towns being expelled from their homeland beyond the borders of Palestine. And then there were hundreds of thousands more that were internally displaced. The Zionist movement declared independence in May in 1948, and they declared the establishment of the state of Israel. And this was the genesis of the Israeli settler colonial apartheid regime. Now, they occupied, the Zionist movement occupied not all of historic Palestine, but around 80% of historic Palestine. The areas which they were not able to occupy in 1948 is what's known today as the West Bank and Gaza. So in the 48 territories, and I'll keep referring to them as the 48 territories, these are the lands that were occupied by the Zionist movement, the 80% that was occupied in 1948. About 150,000 Palestinians survived. And they were occupied by the Zionist movement. And they were put into camps and ghettos. They were kept under lock and key in their villages, their surviving villages. And eventually, they were given Israeli citizenship. But this was a second class citizenship. They were actually placed under martial law for nearly two decades. And these are the people that is often referred to in mainstream media today as the Palestinians. So in 1948, they were 150,000 that survived. And today, they number nearly 2 million. So let's fast forward quickly to 1967. There's a lot of history to get through here. But these are important dates to talk about. 1967 is really the one that's always talked about in the conflict. And of course, what we've seen is that's not true at all. It actually began many decades before that. But the reason for that is because the international community recognized the Zionist movement's occupation of Palestine in 1948. And they recognized, for the most part, not all countries, but most of them did recognize the state of Israel. In 1967, there was what's known as the Six-Day War. And this was when Israel managed to occupy the rest of Palestine, i.e. the West Bank and Gaza, and even more, they also occupied the Syrian Golan and much of the Egyptian Sinai. And this is when they took over all of colonized Palestine. Now, the international community did not recognize that occupation. They said, no, this is a step too far. We are considering this as an illegal occupation, as an attempt to take over land that is not yours. And so that's why today you hear people referring to the occupied territories or the occupied 1967 territories. These are the lands of the West Bank and Gaza. So a lot has happened since then. But I think we'll leave it there just for now, because that's a lot of history in one huge go. No, that was absolutely brilliant.
Speaker 1And thank you so much for condensing all of that into one compact bite-sized chunk for us all. And that already throws up so many more questions. But being conscious of our time today, I wanted to skip ahead to present day and see if it's possible for you to give the listeners an insight into what is the daily reality of life like in Palestine today. For somebody who's just trying to go about their everyday activities, the sort of things that we might take for granted over here, just ordinary normal civil life in Palestine. Could you describe what that is like?
Speaker 2I think we have to be a bit specific here because Palestinians face in Palestine face sort of different realities according to where they live and what ideas they have, even though they're all oppressed under this one regime. There are different characteristics for different realities. So Palestine has been fragmented into, these various different territories or areas, the West Bank and Gaza, which are called the 67 territories. These are Palestinians, which under international law are considered under military occupation. They have, for the most part, Palestinian IDs. And then we have Palestinians in the 48 territories. These are Palestinians with Israeli citizenship. And then we have Palestinians in exile in refugee camps in neighboring countries and, and, and beyond. So we can start with the West Bank. The West Bank has a population of 3 million, nearly 3 million people. It's a very small area of land. And it's under military occupation. And so what that looks like in day to day is, you know, checkpoints in the West Bank. And so what that looks like in day to day is, you know, checkpoints in the West Bank has a population of 3 million, nearly 3 million people. And so what that looks like in day to day is, you know, checkpoints in the West Bank has a population of 3 million people. And so what that looks like in day to day is, you know, checkpoints So within the sort of main urban centers, the main Palestinian urban centers, you move around, you might not think about the occupation because you don't see it so clearly. But as soon as you move outside of that city, you know, you start seeing the military infrastructure of the Israeli regime. You can't get very far without coming to a checkpoint. Military raids, even in the Palestinian urban areas are quite common. You are governed by a military rule system, which basically makes nearly everything illegal. And I'm not even exaggerating here, there are military orders which deem any kind of political activity illegal, you can't be a member of a political party, you can't, a gathering of more than 10 people can be considered as a political rally. And of course, you know, just going to one of the gathering or being a member of a political party, you can't be a member of a political party. A member of a political party doesn't mean that you'll be arrested. But the Israeli regime can use any of these things as a pretext to arrest you. And the carceral system that the Israeli regime maintains is incredibly brutal. Thousands of Palestinians are incarcerated every year. Usually those who are involved in political or social activities, you know, NGO workers are also frequently incarcerated. And it's under a, again, a military system. So there isn't a civil court, you if you are arrested, you are taken to a military court, where the conviction rate is at 99.9%. Jesus. So you are, if you get to court, for sure you are going to prison. And there are many different tactics that the Israeli regime uses to keep you indefinitely detained. So for example, there's a practice called, called administrative detention where the Israeli regime can say that they have secret information on you that they can't release because of the security of the state so they just keep you under indefinite detention and this can you know go on for years and years and years and most Palestinians know someone either a close relative or a close friend who is in prison and I think since 1967 you know over a million something like a million Palestinians have been in prison so it's a huge part of Palestinian life in the West Bank and Gaza now Gaza the situation oh and of course I shouldn't talk about the settlements now the settlements in the West Bank these are what the international community refer to as illegal settlements they are Israeli settlements built in the West Bank on Palestinian land and there are hundreds of them and the number of illegal settlers now I think is about 600,000 illegal settlers in the West Bank including in East Jerusalem now the settlements aren't just you know small encampments they are essentially cities and towns that are built illegally um that take resources away from Palestinians uh the Palestinian uh Israeli the Israeli regime controls all the natural resources in in the West Bank um and even takes the water and then sells it back to the Palestinians so um they also control the settlements also control um the major uh agricultural fertile lands so the Jordan Valley um which is a highly uh fertile uh region for or area of land um for for produce is is essentially um completely under Israeli control um so these these settlements really impinge on every aspect of Palestinian life they're also uh settler only roads in the West Bank so if you're a Palestinian you're not allowed to go on those roads um it just cuts through these settlements just cut up the West Bank and the West Bank isn't this contiguous geographic territory it's really the small pockets or uh banter stands for the lack of a better word of where sort of Palestinians live completely deprived um compared to Jewish Israeli settlers who might live just down down the road yeah um and Palestinians you know even the the getting from point A to B is is a nightmare I mean it sounds really mundane but Palestinians are funneled onto these tiny roads and so the traffic is really unbearable so you know it's all about controlling Palestinian movement and and slowing Palestinians down so that they're not you know going from place to place so frequently that they're really sort of encased in these in these small areas and small pockets would
Speaker 1you say that it's fair to compare it to life in Apartheid South Africa so Apartheid is a is legally defined to be a sort of part of a
Speaker 2so Apartheid is a is legally defined as a system of um segregation in order to maintain dominance by one group over another and it's become a system of control that's been you know enshrined in within international law so it doesn't have to look like South Africa for it to be Apartheid and I think that's really important because yeah you know Palestinians they're they're they're they're they're unions and may advocates often talk about you know this is like South Africa this is Apartheid and whilst there are many similarities there are also many differences but those differences don't mean that it's not Apartheid Apartheid is quite simply and you know there is you know an international law definition uh which establishes that that it's you know it's it's the Rome statue of the international criminal court actually defines it as inhumane acts in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups committed with the intent of maintaining that regime right so this is a definition that can be universal universally uh universally applicable I think so and so it can adopt a lot of different characteristics and so yes there are many similarities with the South African apartheid regime but there were also many differences and in some situations um differences that make it a lot worse yeah um and this is obviously also not to compare to you know say one people suffering is worse than another's but it's there it's just it's there are many shared and many different characteristics and many human rights groups now have actually come out and said that the Israeli regime is practicing apartheid on the Palestinian people including Amnesty International human rights watch right and and others and you know Palestinian scholars and activists have been saying it for a lot longer than these human rights groups um but it I in my belief it and you know in the belief of many scholars and organizations it is an apartheid regime and you know you can just look at the other it's not just in the West Bank that the Israel practices apartheid on posting people so if we look at Gaza for example Gaza is considered one of the largest outdoor prisons in the world it's an area I think it's around 365 kilometers squared a very small area and there are 2.1 million people packed into this area and of those 2.1 1.4 million of them are actually refugees uh from other areas in Palestine um and um Israel has placed it under siege um for a decade and a half and what that means is that it has completely closed off all of its borders and controls all of its uh land sea and and air borders um and so if anyone wants to leave Gaza they have to do so with permission from the the Israeli regime and they've also placed it under blockade which means that also nothing goes in or goes out without Israeli approval we're talking you know food um medical supplies building supplies all of that has to come through uh with the permission of Israel yeah and on top of that you know as if things weren't bad enough in Gaza this densely populated area of land Israel has also subjected it to um very intense military bombardments there have been four wars since 2008 in Gaza four really brutal walls so that means you know a child of you know 15 has seen four wars in their lifetime um and we're talking about you know wars in which is the Israeli regime essentially drops bombs on this very densely populated people area under the pretext of wanting um to attack Hamas the Palestinian political party that is in government in in Gaza so the situation there is very very difficult the UN actually deemed Gaza to be unlivable by 2020. we're now in 2022 and the situation is is really really tough um you know just from down from the basics of um not having um you know electricity 24 hours a day and if you are they only have electricity a few hours a day um and not only does that you know affect hospitals and life support machines and you know but just basic you know daily uh living you know your refrigerator your laptops your television um all of these things um you know you have to arrange your life schedule your life around these periods of electricity and water in Gaza is undrinkable um they you know there is barely any drinkable water in Gaza so it's it's a really really bad situation and it's not a humanitarian crisis you know it's often referred to as a humanitarian crisis as if this sort of just happened on its own it's a political crisis as if there is a decision being made by the Israeli regime to replace these people there's too many people under siege and blockade and that could be lifted tomorrow if there was the political will to do so but this really regime doesn't want to do so it wants to punish the Palestinian population um in Gaza and it's a big business as well it's a big aid and development business um you know and which is and I think it's a whole nother podcast on its own uh critique of aid and development and just very quickly um talk about the 48 territories those are the Palestinian citizens of Israel who are also about nearly two million people these are the people that were occupied in 1948. now whilst they have Israeli citizenship it's really you know a fourth or fifth level um citizenship they do not have access um to all the things that Jewish Israelis have access to and they're treated as a sort of enemy from within they are they live very separate and segregated lives from Jewish Israeli counterparts and the areas in which they live in are deeply under-resourced also look very similar to you know ghettos and Baltistans and then in exile there are millions of Palestinians in exile who either live in refugee camps in border countries in very difficult conditions in which they're not granted citizenship and basically have no papers in many in many situations these refugees have been made refugees once again because of the war in Syria or the dire situation in Lebanon so the reality for Palestinians you know wherever they live is a very abnormal one yeah it's one that's full of oppression and tragedy and but it's also one that's you know sort of survival you know the fact that Palestinians still exist in all these fragments and still call themselves Palestinian I think is a testament to the Palestinian people's will to survive definitely
Speaker 1no definitely it's a truly heartbreaking situation and it's it's heartbreaking to witness it from a as well particularly if you you're aware that the mainstream media's projection of this is so heavily propagandized and biased in favor of israel and one of the things that we hear about so much over here as a solution is the two-state solution that is often presented as the only workable option at this point so i'd love to get your thoughts on that as a palestinian is the two-state solution the only solution at this point is it a workable practical solution a realistic solution and is it a solution that the palestinians would actually be okay with
Speaker 2so the two-state solution is something that was forced upon the palestinian people as a compromise as something that they would have to accept as you know if they wanted to achieve any rights and so the palestinian leadership for better or worse accepted that compromise and so the palestinian leadership for better or worse accepted that compromise and pursued negotiations within that framework of two states so the idea would be that there would be a palestinian state in the west bank and gaza and that the israeli state would be in the 48 territories bearing in mind that this is a massive compromise this is you know palestinians saying okay we'll take a state on you know less than 20 of our original homeland um and so the community has been you know working off this framework as a sort of basis for negotiations and there were the famous oslo accords in the early 1990s um which basically were a series of agreements um um in interim agreements that would lead up to um the establishment of a palestinian state that didn't happen um you know when you read actually the sort of the small print of the oslo accords and you you analyze it with hindsight you realize that this was a massive mistake that the palestinian leadership signed on to this and that this was really allowed for the entrenchment of further israeli domination and control and the you know i think for many palestinians the the two-state solution has been if they ever accepted it and many palestinians did not accept it they were going to have to accept it and they were going to have to accept it that it has been dead in the water for a very long time but because the international community is really um powerless in this situation they are not able to hold israel accountable to its violent to the violations it commits against palestinian people nor are they able to hold it um hold them to their word with various agreements being signed and negotiated um and so the international community for their lack of being able to do anything keeps on sort of flogging this dead horse that you know two-state solution two-state solution right and promoting it as this sort of the the most feasible and the most rational solution when in in actual reality it addresses very little of palestinians desires and hopes for for sovereignty and fundamental rights um so no i don't think palestinians are going to be able to do anything i don't think and i have never thought that the two-state solution um is uh is a just option or a viable option essentially it's partition um it's creating yet another border in a region which is full of colonial borders and for me another one is not the answer yeah um i think you know when it comes down to it palestinians can you know can summarize what they want you know very simply like they want their fundamental rights they want to be able to live as any other people live in the world really you know even even more basic than that i think if you asked any palestinian on the street they would you know just want to be able to move they would want to be able to go to the sea you know most palestinians live within 45 minutes of the sea and they are not allowed to go there it's it's deeply sad and it's these very small things that actually make life um very very difficult and so an end to those you know uh those deprivations and enter those violations a realization of fundamental rights including um ending the military occupation of the 67 months including uh the right of return for refugees which is really fundamental to the palestinian struggle and full and equal uh citizenship for the palestinian citizens of israel and you know these these these three things that i just mentioned are not not a big ask actually they are the minimal yeah they are fully within international law and i'm sure palestinians i can't speak for all palestinians but i know that you know palestinians will have other demands as well including you know reparations and you know justice and accountability and you know and those are incredibly important but i think you know when when you think about it all of these things are completely reasonable yes demands and and completely fall within international law and yet palestinians when they talk about them are often sort of disregarded as being sort of fantastical you know asking for too much when palestinians have already compromised so much
Speaker 1100 percent yeah 100 percent and essentially what you're saying is you know despite you know any kind of political showboating or whatever that's going on between the west and israel essentially what palestinians want is human rights civil rights you know um justice equality and dignity and just just like everybody else yeah
Speaker 2and our political rights as well and our political rights as a collective i definitely don't want to play down the fact that palestinians also want you know also want their political rights um um but i think when you when you summarize it like that it seems completely completely reasonable and what's unreasonable is when they say oh well you know the israeli regime would never would never accept that well it doesn't matter it doesn't matter that the israeli regime will not accept that these are enshrined rights within international law yes within the realms of what's accepted as moral and ethical these are not tool demands these are not big demands and if there is an abusive regime it's not a big demand and if there is an abusive regime it's not a big demand and if there is an abusive regime it's not a big demand and if there is an abusive regime uh of course they don't want to give us that of course because it means that it would end their position of dominance and power yeah but tough shit sorry for the language but you know this is what this is what you know this is what we have to demand of all uh violating and abusive
Speaker 1regimes 100 and what are the obstacles then to achieving that in
Speaker 2palestine well there are big big obstacles now it's very unfortunate for the palestinian people that the israeli regime is very important to western powers for multiple reasons yeah the western powers were so supportive of the establishment of israel because basically it saw it as this you know imperial uh sort of lookout post in the middle east lieutenant exactly an ally state that they could have watching the naughty arabs yeah and it the israeli regime you know since then has evolved into this powerhouse of uh weapons and security technologies and they have uh their hand in training so many different countries in their securities they have their hand in you know in selling weapons to so many countries around the world it's really become you know um um uh one of the most important uh regimes or countries in that regard and what the israeli regime does is that it develops these weapons and security technologies and it tests them on the Palestinians. The Palestinian people, the West Bank and Gaza, are these laboratories for the Israeli regime. They test these weapons out on us and then they sell them to a global market. And, you know, their tech is really, you know, it's first class and I think it's pretty unbeatable. I think it's described as well as described as this sort of startup nation as one of the most tech-savvy nations. Well, among that technology is also, you know, surveillance and spyware, which it sells to regimes, to other regimes in the region and beyond, really nasty regimes, which also use those technologies to spy and oppress their own people. So Israel has become a very important player for a lot of countries around the world. And so protecting its interests is of global. Global concern. So in this way, it can seem quite overwhelming. And I think I can understand why people might feel defeatist. Yeah. Because this is just such a big, you know, such a big thing to take on. You know, we're not just talking about the Israeli regime. We're talking about the whole weapons industry, the whole, you know, surveillance industry, etc. But then if you sort of flip it on its head and you think about Russia, like, well, these people are, these regimes are oppressing millions of people. And the, you know, the potential for solidarity and cross-movement mobilizing is huge. So it doesn't just become about Palestine. It's about, you know, a global bottom-up movement to challenge and stop the arms trade, which Israel, of course, plays a key role. Yeah. So that's what I feel a bit overwhelmed. That's what I always remind myself, that this is, you know, okay, they are big, they are powerful, but they're also oppressing millions of us, not just in Palestine, but elsewhere. And so we are a lot more than them. So we do have, in that sense, the people power. And so, you know, I think that's just one of the obstacles we're facing. I think, you know, I think also the, that there are internally with the Palestinians, there's a lot of internal obstacles. Our own leadership is, I think, is one of the biggest obstacles. Many people are aware that the Palestinian authority leadership is a very corrupt and authoritarian leadership, which is, does a lot of, is considered by a lot of people a subcontractor for the Israeli regime. Right. It's not particularly unusual. It's not particularly unusual in colonial situations that the colonial power will recruit a sort of local or native police force to do its dirty work. And that's really the case that has happened to Palestine. So there is also, you know, an internal problem with leadership, with mobilization. Yeah. But again, I think it's, you know, it's all connected and that's by design. Many of our political leaders are in, our revolutionary political leaders are in prison. Or have been assassinated. So it serves their interest to put in a leadership that will be subservient and that will keep the Palestinian population subdued.
Speaker 1There are so many points there that you just made that I would love to embellish further upon, but I know that time is against us. I totally agree, though, that hope can be derived from the fact that this struggle is connected to so many other struggles around the world. I think there is a lot of hope to be derived from that because it means that people, in countries such as mine in the UK or in the US and Canada or France or wherever it may be, we can do our part in that struggle. You know, whether it's campaigning against the arms industries that profit from this or lobbying our governments who support this, it makes the fight so much more global. And in those terms, the Palestinian struggle now has millions and millions of allies all around the world. And I think a lot of hope can be drawn from that. So, practically speaking, what can people listening to this from countries around the world who are motivated to get involved in help, what can they do that would be useful?
Speaker 2Well, I think two things, really. I think, firstly, to join or be part of local Palestine solidarity movements, whether that's BDS groups, BDS standing for Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions, movement groups, or just general Palestine solidarity groups. And wherever you are. And to really focus on linking these groups up with other social justice and political struggles because, you know, as we just talked about, they are so connected and they are inherently connected to one another. But the second thing, and I think this is quite frequently understated, you know, Palestine won't be liberated whilst we have, all the regimes that are, all the governments and regimes that are currently in place. It is within the interest of capitalists and right-wing regimes that Israel, you know, exists as it does as an apartheid state, as a settler colonial project. And so it means that there has to be a global shift in politics, that people have to work wherever they are in changing their politics to a more progressive, to a more left-wing one, to one that is more, more focused around social justice and has an emancipatory politics, emancipatory global politics. So, you know, if you are somewhere that doesn't have, you know, a Palestine solidarity group or a BDS group, I mean, you could start one, but you could also work, you know, hard on making sure that your local government or the national government, wherever you are, is one that is more friendly to the Palestinians, to the Palestinian struggle for liberation, that adopts a political agenda that is not just about, you know, obviously not just focused on Palestine, but that includes Palestine as part of a progressive, a progressive package, political package that addresses, you know, climate change, that addresses Palestine, that addresses indigenous rights, et cetera. So I think, you know, people shouldn't be overwhelmed. They shouldn't be overwhelmed by the fact that they are far away and they might not know what to do. You know, Palestine is connected. It doesn't exist in a vacuum. And the Palestinian people are a diasporic people. We do exist in a lot of places around the world. And it's not hard to find some of us. So I think there are plenty of opportunities for people to get involved and work for the, you know, and work towards the liberation of Palestine. And there is a lot going on online as well. The BDS Movement website has a lot of really useful resources. There are a lot of student groups. So if you're a student, undoubtedly on your campus, there is a Palestine Solidarity Group. So there's a lot of things that can be done, but I don't want people to feel overwhelmed that it's just too much. I think that's also not to be complacent. I think, you know, in this day and age, we have to be very careful with complacency. And, you know, social media posting is not enough. It doesn't quite cut it anymore. It has to be accompanied with direct political action. But I think, you know, I think we are becoming more connected to one another. And I think our struggles are linking up. So I do think there is plenty of opportunity.
Speaker 1Yeah, and there are countless Palestine Solidarity Groups around the world as well. So wherever you are listening to this from, there will be a group local to you that you can get involved with. Another thing I wanted to ask you was, what role do the citizens of Israel play in this? And can they be a part of the solution?
Speaker 2Well, I think, you know, any settler colonial nation, there has to be a deep process of unlearning. These are people that have, you know, been conditioned to believe that their dominance and their dominance, over another group is justified and is right. So I think it's a deep process of unlearning and it has to be a collective one. It's not just good enough that, you know, one person becomes an anti-Zionist. It has to be, you know, really a collective process. So it's going, it's doing that, you know, working on your own society. And there are, you know, in South Africa, there were white Afrikaners that were, part of the anti-apartheid struggle. And there were also white Afrikaners that worked on educating the white population. But it wasn't, you know, it wasn't a huge part of the struggle in the sense that that's what the struggle relied upon, you know, changing the minds of the settler colonial. Essentially what the downfall of apartheid in South Africa was because it came under massive pressure from the outside. international community with sanctions yeah so i think that's you know i think that we cannot wait for israeli society to realize to wake up and realize what they're doing um right i think it has to come from the outside because when that pressure is applied i think you know they'll go through that process a lot quicker but we've done
Speaker 1it before we've seen it time and time again haven't we so we know it is possible and as bleak as it seems and it does seem looking in from the outside as if things are getting worse you know with the continued expansions into the occupied territories and obviously you know i wanted to touch more today on uh obviously we haven't got time but you know but the shooting recently of shireen abu akler and the um the disgraceful display that we saw at her funeral procession uh it does oftentimes seem as if things are getting worse but as you alluded to earlier there's that this the human spirit and that strength of spirit within the palestinian people that has fought for so long now so there is hope and as you say you know awareness we are in a globally connected world now you know the the awareness around the world on this issue is growing stronger by the day so um if everybody does their bit i think that there is hope that um you know we can see a better day
Speaker 2yeah and i think you know i'm glad that you mentioned shireen abu akler because you know that was a really really um you know it was it was shocking and it was not shocking it was shocking um because we all entered as a nation into sort of collective grief and mourning but it wasn't surprising and i know the the international community was deeply surprised but you know it's because it received attention shireen was a well-known you know journalist known around the arab world she had an international platform but she's not the first journalist uh to be assassinated and killed uh she wasn't the last there has already been other uh another journalist that has been killed since she was her um so i think moments like this are important to highlight the the ongoing um system of uh or or the ongoing violence here that's committed by the the israeli regime um and again you know the the beating of the the coffin bearers at her funeral you know was it was horrific to see it was but again it wasn't you know for palestinians it wasn't surprising like there are no uh there aren't we we're not surprised by what they do anymore because they have done so much to us um but i think moments like that are important um and i think that there is you know the the public opinion on the israeli regime is shifting it's becoming very hard to defend um actions like that and i think you know it's important that people stay engaged
Speaker 1you completely agree well yara i know you've got to go so as much as i want to keep you talking i know i've got to let you go so thank you so much for giving us your time today i know how incredibly busy you are and thank you for everything you're doing on this issue as well this is such a crucial issue on the world stage and i hope you'll come and speak with us again sometime um but in the meantime stay safe and stay strong thank
Speaker 2you so much for having me on anytime
Speaker 1at all we'll speak you soon thanks again yara bye-bye bye there you go i really hope you found that informative and interesting i mean yara knows everything there is to know on this issue and she was absolutely brilliant at condensing so much history and background down into those 10 minute um bite-sized chunks for us to digest she wasn't a tight time slot because she had another interview lined up right after this one but for those of you who don't know much or enough about this issue i'm hoping that now after listening to the past hour that you've got a much broader and deeper understanding exactly what's happening over in palestine and usually i tend to rant and riff at the end of these things to put my own 10 cents in but i'm not going to do that this week because there's nothing i can say that's going to embellish or amplify what yara has already said and i don't feel that it's my place to try and do that if after listening to that you'd like to get more involved in this cause there are tons of groups that you can check out here in the uk there's a group that i've done a few things with in the past called the palestine solidarity campaign there's also pal action and you can check out some of the bds groups as well which stands for boycott and you can follow yara directly on twitter at yara hawari i really hope that after listening to that you will be motivated to get involved in this cause because it is such a heartbreaking struggle that just does not need to happen and should not be happening thanks again for listening i hope you enjoyed it and i shall see you next week same time same place don't forget to subscribe share leave a rating leave a review leave a comment i'll see you next week love you guys cheers
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