On March 25th, 1948, something crashed in the New Mexico desert. In a hundred-foot-flying saucer, complete with 16 charred alien bodies, seen by multiple eyewitnesses from different vantage points, we have four of them on record. The UFO came from that direction over there, but it was making this sound like almost whistling. Welcome to Aztec, Roswell's younger, weirder, starlet-lettered sister. It might be the most overlooked crash in UFO history. Some people were talking about it, and they got calls from the military. Stop. Don't say anything more. They were out there taking pictures. With more evidence attached to it, than any other in the United States. And certainly more than the Almighty Roswell. We look over at the mesa, and there's this red light, and you're like, "Oh, man, what is that? Someone's out there." But for reasons we'll get into, very few people, even many die-hard UFO believers, want to touch it. Aztec was the first case that was written about, was viciously viciously smeared. The Wikipedia page literally calls it Aztec crashed saucer hoax. But what if the hoax was manufactured? More before seeing FBI documents, CIA disinformation agents, break ins, and a cover-up that keeps going till today. In this episode, we'll take you deep into heart canyon, where we'll stand on the exact spot where witnesses claim that 16 alien bodies were laid out while a Baptist preacher prayed over them at the request of the military. My old friend Chris Ramsey from the incredible YouTube channel, Area 52, joins the investigation and will follow the bizarre trail of dead and uprooted trees allegedly left behind by the craft and its recovery. We'll even examine a polished marble that was found six inches deep at the crash site decades earlier, a piece we send out for testing and get results on by the end of this episode. In the craft itself, sounds straight out of Star Trek, with an upper deck, seamless construction, and hyroglyphic writing, apparently many of the scientists who studied it could only stay inside for 20 minutes at a time before experiencing bad side effects. But this isn't just a story about a crash. It's about the town of Aztec itself and the strange uninvited visitors that apparently never stopped coming. We're the government once detonated an atomic bomb underground to blast open natural gas reserves. And right next door is Farmington, where back in 1950, half the town watched hundreds of silver discs swarm across the sky, an event that came to be known as the Farmington Armada. The first day where we were a few, the second day there was too many to count. We might potentially be standing exactly where alien bodies were laying at rest. To give us the tour on the town, the crash site, and get us clued in on the entire history, we had the best tour guides in the world, Scott and Suzanne Ramsey. It's one of the most comprehensive cases that exists. It's multi-dimensional, not just one level of I saw this or somebody told me this. We feel confident after all these years and a lot of money, a lot of time that it actually occurred. Would you be willing to say how much you spent in total? We spent over half a million dollars. Wow! This North Carolina-based couple took the mantle from famed UFO researcher Bill Steinman. At least twice now, Aztec researchers set to meet with the Ramsey's to share their research, ended up dead. Chris Evans meets with Alice Scully, and it becomes aware that there's real documentation around the Aztec crash, wants to urgently meet with you guys, and then what happens next. He died the day that he was coming to see Suzanne. And when we got the news, it was like somebody punched us. If things couldn't get any stranger, when we finally reached the crash site ourselves, someone was waiting for us, a stranger with curious ties to the Air Force. He showed up at Heart Canyon, which is very obscure and hard to get to, at the same time we did. He also seemed to know a lot more about all of us than he let on. Without further ado, the UFO crash at Aztec New Mexico with this week's amazing American Alchemists, Scott and Suzanne Ramsey. Our trip doesn't start in New Mexico. It starts in Moorsville, North Carolina. This is where Scott and Suzanne live. The Ramsey's are the picture of persistence. They've poured over a half a million dollars of their own money over decades trying to get to the truth on Aztec. And when I say they are trying to get to the truth, these are researchers that love when misconceptions get debunked. He started out to prove it or disprove it, and that's always been our philosophy. If it shows true fine, if it doesn't, that's fine too, but at least you can put that to bed. Scott and Suzanne were literally brought together by the Aztec case. Scott was the first to learn about it while on a business trip in 1988. He was in Denver but got delayed due to weather problems, so he took a trip to Farmington, New Mexico to meet a potential customer. While waiting on that meeting, he overheard a couple of Navajo men sitting there talking about going hunting by the old quote unquote "crash site." He said, "I'll buy it up by the old crash site." The record's outside Aztec. Aztec? What did you find out there? So I proded a little bit and said, "What are you talking about crash site?" "Oh, it's an old wives tale. Who knows?" "UFO crashed out there late '40s or early '50s. Who knows?" "Since it was like folklore?" "Well, kind of. You think it happened?" "I don't know. People think it did." "This is the turn. You miss it. You keep driving." "Really, because I wanted to hear where this crash site was." From that point forward, Scott was hooked. He started his own vigilante research efforts. Suzanne was born in South Dakota, to a mother who was obsessed with UFOs. An obsession sparked by the first book on Aztec, "Behind the Flying Saucers" by Variety columnist Frank Scully. Suzanne's mother was so inspired by Scully that she moved the entire family to Flora Vista, a suburb of Aztec. She went to work for a local radio station, where in 1999 she ran into Scott, who was quickly becoming one of the deepest researchers on the UFO incident. The rest was history. They've never given up on this case. They have a shipping container worth of data, documents, and artifacts at their place in North Carolina, and they've probably been to the Aztec crash site over 100 times. Their primary income isn't through UFO research and whatever little money they've made by selling books, pales in comparison to what they've spent. Suzanne runs a root beer company she calls Uncle Scott's, that she named after Scott. In Scott himself, literally has a business which fabricates components for the national labs all over the country, named me another person who works directly with PhD physicists at Los Alamos, but has also amassed more information than anyone on the planet about a UFO crash in his spare time, and he's done it without a clearance. Now it was time to go directly to the scene of the crime. Welcome to Aztec, New Mexico, population 6,800. UFO crashes may be one, depending on who you ask. For a town where in a hundred foot flying saucer supposedly came down, they're weirdly low on alien merchandise. Meanwhile, it's older sibling Roswell built an alien empire with its own gravitational pull. It has a UFO museum, gift shops, street lights with alien eyes. Even a glow in the dark spacewalk with a wormhole you can walk through. And that's all due to a saucer that crashed into pieces in 1947, 100 miles away. Unlike the UFO mecca, Roswell has created, Aztec has done practically nothing. Roswell and the folks of Roswell have embraced it as an opportunity to celebrate it, and it's a financial benefit to them. There's nothing wrong with that, that's what they've chosen to do. Aztec, the fact that it was professed to be a hoax, I think put some shame on it, and it embarrassed people to even be associated with it. Here's the TV, Aztec's right here, and if they would politicize it, they would advertise that and do that, you would know, "no."
It is a little bit odd, but there are some people that, you know, just, you know, want to shut it down. I kind of don't have an opinion about it one way or the other. It's interesting. Something happened. So what repelled Aztec from its own biggest story? What left the resident split between believers and skeptics? We get a lot of people that email us from Denmark, from Sweden, from Germany, from South Africa. Hey, we're coming to get a flight to Elbekerke, you know, going to JFK, JFK to Elbekerke, then we're going to drive up to Aztec. Can you give us coordinates? And we, yeah, great. Tell us how you liked it. We've never had a negative feedback. Not coordinates here to the crash site, where we just spent the whole day. Give it out there? I fed it out there once. I think next time that they crash, they just need to make it more convenient for us. That's the only thing that I would wish. How are you feeling? I feel like it feels kind of trippy energy, like interesting energy around. A lot of people say. Yeah. Do you guys still get that feeling coming here? It's exciting for Scott and I every time that we come here. But then for somebody new to see it and experience it. And you're certainly taking the time to actually live it. And how is anyone sure that this didn't happen? When Scott himself has talked to four direct witnesses and countless others with second-degree connections. There's probably 16 or 18 witnesses. How many have you spoken to you directly? Let's see, Doug Nolan, Ken Farley, the preacher, the preacher's son, one other gentleman. So yeah, if you were to kind of add up, you know, the people you've had direct contact with and people where maybe you interviewed a second-degree connection that you felt was trusted. Sun, daughter, granddaughter. Yeah, quite a bit. Would that move it over eight, over 50 percent? Oh, yeah. Well, we might be at 75 percent. Wow. Yeah. Here is the best account of what those witnesses say actually happened. Cuba, New Mexico. About a hundred miles south of Aztec, an old highway 44. It's the night of March 24th, 1948. A part-time cop named Manuel Sandoval ends up at the hotel cafe with a new Mexico highway patrolman named Andy Andrews, swapping notes over coffee and pie. They would meet for coffee at the little restaurant and they have high-end coffee and talk about things that were going on. And the subject of UFOs came up just about every night. Mrs. Herrera called in lights again last night, third time this week. Weird lights cutting across the sky. Next time I see one of those things, I'm going to follow it. In that truck, I can't catch a tractor. So when a disc comes wobbling low over Cuba that night, Sandoval does the thing he'd been saying he would do. He goes after it all night. It doesn't really glide. It flutters like a leaf. 80 miles up that same road, Rancher Valentin Archaleta walks out before sunrise to let his sheep out to pasture. His family has worked this land since the late 1700s, when they settled here under a Spanish land grant. Generations later, his granddaughter still farms those same fields. His full name was Telephoto Valentin Archaleta. He was an awesome, awesome grandfather, very respected in these parts. He was a baton deathmarch survivor. The deathmarch. The forced march of the American prisoners by the Japanese, which caused many to die. These were the troops the general had in mind when he returned to the Philippines. From the west, he hears a swoosh like a vacuum imploding. Then a sonic boom. So he looked up and he saw it. And he saw it hit right here. The disc clips the mesa right across the road from his ranch, throwing sparks down the cliff face and starting to wobble. Then it somehow restabilizes temporarily, but continues to lose altitude, dropping north toward Hark Canyon. The streak that the craft left on the cliff can still be seen there to this day, and Scott Ramsey put himself in serious danger just to find this mark. If you want to, you can hang by one hand and break Virginia of a broken room. Oh, you're there. Here, go down. It'll be more interesting to just grab like a scoop of whatever's in that groove. My concern from the scientific point would you contaminate the groove with whatever you're doing. No one else is doing anything. You might as well just grab a sample and have it just. Whatever he just saw flying across the sky, he knew exactly who to call. He calls the Air Force and he says, "Hey, one of your planes crashed over here. You need to come get it." It takes three tries before anyone at Curtlyn Air Force Base in Albuquerque takes foul seriously. So, he goes back down the merchant's house, "Hey, I told you one of your planes had crashed over here." And that's when everything got started. About eight miles away, 19-year-old oilfield worker Doug Nolan is picking up his supervisor, Bill Ferguson. They work for El Paso natural gas. Morning, Fergie. Change your plans. We're not going south. Brush fire out on Hark Canyon near the tanks. How near, near and up, I'd like to be there already. Brush fires around oil tanks are not a good thing. The oil tanks are fine. Doug and Bill crest the rim of the mesa, and there it is. A flying saucer, a hundred feet across. What looks like dull aluminum, just sitting there, in dirt with no stands or landing gear, resting on its belly at a slight 12 degree tilt. It's completely seamless with no rivets, bolts, or weld marks. It looked like a very gentle landing. The craft was not dented, torn up, anything like that. When you look at exactly which direction and how it traveled, it was due north exactly. And this is actually due north exactly from the archel letter ranch. So it would be much easier to just land here, almost. And as we've talked about, it was more of a soft landing than a crash. Meanwhile, coming up the canyon road is Manuel Sandoval, our cop from Cuba, New Mexico. He spots the work trucks parked at the base of the mesa, so he starts climbing up the hillside. Around the same time, two ranchers pull up, an older couple, Mr. and Mrs. Knight. Five miles away, in Cedar Hill, 20-something-year-old Ken Farley is picking up his friend. He had just come back from visiting an ant in Durango, Colorado. And now the two were about to hit the road for San Diego to see some friends. There's been trucks going up that old road all morning. Police car went up too. Somebody might be heard out there. Let's go. I said to Doug, "Well, how many people can you identify?" And he went through the list. He said, "But there was a group of guys, two or maybe three on the western side of the mesa, that didn't really have a lot to do with us." Well, that was Ken Farley and his buddy. Fifty years later, dying of a lung disease and phoenix, Ken Farley could still describe the craft in perfect detail. At the end, he said, "And around the center section of the craft, there were three brass or copper or gold lines that ran all the way around it. Well, that fit perfect with Doug Nolan." And then all of a sudden, Doug, for reasons I deeply respect, climbs on top of it. Mrs. Knight isn't too thrilled about that. "Get down off of that thing! You don't know what it is!" Decades later, Doug still remembered Mrs. Knight, giving them hell about getting near that damn saucer. Doug, not being that familiar with all the locals, I said, "How did you know the Knights, why didn't they were telling us to stay the hell away from the craft?" And I asked Bill Ferguson who are they? Bill Ferguson said, "Well, they're telling us to stay away from the craft. They're ranchers out here, so they know it doesn't belong here." Up on the hull, Doug and Bill study what look like port holes around the dome of the craft. From a distance, they look like mirrors. Then they spot a perfectly round hole in one of them. About the size of a quarter, punched clean through the glass. Doug was specific about that hole for the rest of his life. Doug puts his eye in the punctured port hole. He sees two small figures slumped over a panel. "Furgey, what? There's people in it."
Then, Bill grabs a fire pole and pokes it through the hole in the port hole. Trying to nudge awake the craft's inhabitants. He must have hit a button or triggered something, because at that exact moment, a hatch door from the belly of the craft throps open, with the whole gang watching. For a second, no one moves. According to Doug, he and Bill enter the craft. The interior is clean with nothing burned or damaged. They find the two figures still slumped over the control panel, both wearing one piece blue suits, with no insignias, and they're small, only three to four feet tall. Then Doug hears someone shouting from the upper deck of the craft. Most reports say there were 14 to 16 of them. Little charred or burnt in the same blue jumpsuits. Before we dive into this wild episode, I want to give a huge thank you to one of today's sponsors, Dose. Dose for your liver is an extremely high quality drinkable supplement. 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New customers can save 35% on your first month of subscription by going to dose daily.co/jessie or entering jessie at checkout. Again, that's d-o-s-e-d-a-i-l-y.co/jessie or j-e-s-s-e for 35% off your first month subscription. I want to thank Dose so much for sponsoring the show, now back to today's episode. All charted or burned in the same blue jump seats. My only theory in it, that's all it is, is perhaps that hole. Like I said earlier, they have been a wept in a 50 caliber, right-fold machine gun, whatever, when it was flying over Los Alamos and maybe mass decompression. Only some type of gas within the chamber that as soon as it was breached by a spark would ignite some type of instant explosion that's just like at the same time, you know. Or maybe electromagnetic damage before they understood how to describe, you know, that sharia or electrical charge or some electrical charge. Meanwhile, Baptist minister Solon Brown is cruising down the highway outside Aztec when he sees the mass of cars at Hark Canyon. He was a roaming Baptist minister that was in charge of many churches. And he went out there to open up the first Baptist church in Mancoast, Colorado, which is maybe 40 minutes drive from the crash site. He pulls over. Solon walks up to the opening of the saucer and leans in, but doesn't go inside. Years later, he said he saw a few of the beings, maybe three, slumped over some kind of table or panel, an account that's notably consistent with all of the others. And he was shocked that they were so childless. Not really the typical alien described to us, they were more childlike. No hair, one piece blue jumpsuits, no insignias, no anything to give rank serial number. In the group, sees something that's almost as strange and futuristic as a flying saucer, a helicopter. I think Ken was the first one to tell me about the helicopter. He said all of a sudden a very small helicopter showed up and kind of circled around the crash site and then took off to the northeast. They all admit seeing the helicopter. I mean, that was one very consistent story. And Doug said I didn't know what was more spectacular. This discling on the mace for a helicopter and I said what are you talking about? Well, helicopters just came out in '48. In 1948, most people had never seen one in real life. And now here's one circling right over their heads. But just over the years, the consistency in the story, what the craft looked like. They all talked about the hole in the port hole. And I'll talk about the same time the military showed up. The rest of the story sounds like the familiar UFO crash retrieval playbook. The military swarms the scene, seals it off from the public and threatens the witnesses to keep quiet. They all agree that nobody had any insignias to identify who they were, not Army Marine Corps, whatever. The guys in the military were not young guys. Most look like they're in their '30s or '40s, mature, gruff, and extremely well-trained, moving precisely and deliberately. Doug laughed and said it was like a bunch of drill sergeants talking to you at the same time. And they seemed to know exactly how to secure a site and pull off a recovery. Roswell was less than a year earlier, and everyone notes how badly they botched that operation. But this time the military knew exactly what it was doing. Oh yeah, they learned a lot in eight months. Roswell did a press release, put it on the front page of the paper, and then of course came up and denied it and came up with a weather balloon theory after that. Now Aztec was well-oiled. You weren't out here today. There's nothing out here. There never was. When the military tells Ken to beat it, he doesn't listen. Ah, he mouthed off and said, you guys don't have any jurisdiction, and I'm not the military. You can't tell me what to do. And I think he got the butt of a gun in his gut for talking that way. By this time the military had started pulling bodies out. There were 14 to 16 bodies at the crash site. And one of the military members said, well, you know, basically father, we're glad you're here. And he said, well, I'm not catholic, I'm a Baptist preacher, but I'd be more than happy to say a prayer over him and by the way, what happened. So we really can't get into details. May your souls find the peace they deserve and rest in eternal peace. And then was told to leave, which he did. And the bodies, if they didn't look like what you typically expect in an alien, you know, some of the aliens that we see depicted grades and stuff are childlike. What exactly did they look like? Children. By mid-morning, the military pretty much owns that mesa. No one can get through. Two girls on horseback tried to pass, but are stopped by plain clothes men standing besides a parked jeep. Very friendly, very casually dressed, said girls, I'm sorry, you can't go any further. There's a situation up the road, it isn't safe. Go on home. Go on now. So I'm hearing this story and I'm thinking, God, what a good memory. And I said, and she's senior to my age and I said, I got to ask, how do you know it was March 25th? And she said because it was my birthday. Later that night, Solon Brown is in the living room of Bruce Sayer, a deacon with whom he is discussing plans for building a church. Solon tells him about the profound experience, Solon breaks down and cries. 60 years later, Bruce Sayer's son would tell Scott Ramsay why he never forgot that night. It was the first time that he'd ever seen a grown man cry. For the weeks following the crash, the military camps out at the mesa. Scientists are brought in to study the craft. When this group was originally brought out to the crash site, they spent the first two days hanging back.
back, and waving Geiger counters at it, they were worried about radiation. Sounds like a group that might have been briefed on UFOs which are notorious for emitting radiation. They enter further and observe strange hieroglyphic symbols. They can't stay inside the craft for longer than 20 minutes at a time, because some negative energy overcomes them. A gloomy feeling of doom that witnesses like Bob Lizar would describe years later. It's a real ominous, creepy feeling, and a lot of it is because of the black. It doesn't look right. There was also a nurse that checked each one of the scientists for the length of time that they would be in the craft because they became sick to their stomach. If they were in more than 20 minutes. The Ramzis would later place nine scientists in total on that mesa, more on exactly how they got there later. But every name on their list traces back to the same wartime science network run by one man. Vanavar Bush, which means whoever was making these calls, wasn't improvising, and they probably came from the deepest part of America's nuclear program. So I mean a hundred feet, have you guys measured out how big a hundred feet would have been? What's the saw? I'm bad with scale. A hundred yards, so a third of a football field. Yeah, again I'm Canadian, you need to feed your feeders. Yeah. 33 meters. Okay, yeah. Wow. Okay, so from there to there pretty much, that's massive. One it's time to transfer the craft out of there. A bulldozer cuts a new road up to the mesa, clearing pinion trees as it climbs. And while all of this is happening, a spring storm moves across the mesa. Snow blows sideways through the site. It gathers on the ground, on the rocks, but not on the craft. Snow strikes the saucer and disappears. Nothing accumulates. That detail comes from a young airman on perimeter security named Donald Bass. He was flown up from Roswell and driven in from Durango, and he slept in the bed of a truck for two weeks while the recovery took place. At the top, crews pour a concrete slab and set rebar into the wet foundation. Two cranes work in tandem over the saucer. A gearing at its base is removed. Look at this. Is this the crane spot? Oh, yeah, no way. It needs to be the perfect addition and we have souvenir. That's what they do. They come out here and bust it up with the rocks. So this is a poured concrete. Why would you pour concrete out here? If you're going to drag in a hundred foot in diameter craft off a mesa with a crane, you need solid footing. And silt isn't solid. So somewhere out here, in 1948, someone in a hurry mixed concrete. And concrete is hard to clean up. Debunker is called this concrete slab an oil well cap. But there's an oil well cap that's next to the site. And it's dramatically bigger than this concrete slab. I don't know if you just want to grab a picture of that. It's like a medium large one there. Ah, that's crazy. Instead, this thing looks like it was built bespoke and ad hoc to drag a craft out of the area. When I asked Scott and Suzanne, where that whole oil well cap cover story came from. They said it was a famous debunker named Karl Flock. Flock is a self-reported former CIA agent. So I'll let you come to your own conclusions there. Then something called a dragon wagon begins backing its way up the newly cut road. This was a heavy duty tank transport that the army used during World War II. They, on the back of the dragon wagon, had two stabilizing footers. When they try to put the arms down, it just kept going into the self. Put something heavy under it, something solid. How do you take a craft that big? Move it down a steep terrain and then get it out of there. Frank Scully, who wrote behind the flying saucers, talked about the craft cable part in sections. So if we can take the craft and take it in reasonable pieces, getting it out of there would require one thing. And that was something Suzanne didn't want to hear, but re-enacting it. How much did he spend on re-enacting the crash retrieval for the Aztec craft? In excess of $14,000 that week. Scott actually tracked down an Air Force officer who claims that he helped them make the entire Aztec retrieval team disappear, at least on paper. In their earlier books, the Ramsey's pseudonymously called him George. Two hundred people worked that recovery, and that he was in charge of updating their personnel records daily for two weeks. Making it look like the retrieval team in Aztec wasn't actually in Aztec at all. After this interview, they were finally able to release his real name. Tech Sergeant Dick Harper. He said I was never at the crash site. He said my job was basically keeping personnel records. A little more detail, what's that mean? He said well roughly 200 people were involved in the whole Aztec recovery. So I kept 200 personnel records to make sure nobody was ever really an Aztec. I said well can I have more detail on that? He said well let's just say that week that you may have been there or the two week operation you were there, I'd have you at McDill. And then I'd have you spray an ankle playing volleyball. And then I'd have you and in the infirmary for a few days. So if you ever come public and talk about it, the Air Force can go, well that's not true. You were at McDill that week or that month or that year or whatever. And he said that was my full-time job. He said I did see Intel briefings on it. And I saw black and white photos of it. And he said it was a very large craft. The evidence that something crashed at Aztec is overwhelming. Even the trees at the heart canyon crash site are split outwards as if a craft was dragged through a very specific path. Back when I first started talking to Bill, Bill Steinman he brought up an interesting point. We were comparing notes about the crash site. Once we confirmed we were both at the same site and Bill said you know if they dragged that thing up to the dragon wagon, they used soft trees to do it over. These aren't going to hurt anything. And he said notice are all split to the northeast. I said you know Bill I noticed a lot of damage to trees. I never noticed they were split to the northeast. And as we walked back to the car, they're all laid down. My joke is they don't have hurricanes here like we have in North Carolina. And something laid them all down. So they managed to get the craft out, but the Mesa was a wreck. Drag marks, broken and bent trees, and a path of destruction pointing in one direction. If you're running the most secretive recovery in the country, that's a loose end you don't want to leave. It's not enough to just remove the craft. You have to fix the scene. And 1999, a man who claims he was sent to the crash site to fix it, to paper it over for the government, wrote Scott a letter. His name is Fred Reed. All we brought today was a letter. He wrote me a 99, but we have another letter he wrote afterwards. I thought they were together. And this is the original. It's quite interesting. dated March 27, 1999. And was he on the crash retrieval team? No, he came, the craft was gone. Everything was gone. They came basically to re-landscape the Mesa. It was basically not a typical crash site that they cleaned up before, but looked like a lot of heavy equipment had gone in there. But I thought it was interesting. He said that they, this was not the first site they cleaned up. But years later, he learned that it was a flying saucer. And their focus was to try and make it appear as if nothing happened. The problem is that later on, we had the opportunity to see an aerial view and you can actually see how it would be. There's a section, they're very symmetrical. They're in lines. And of course, nature organic is random. It's not in the line. But these are in lines. I guess what goes to my mind is that you can just imagine someone down there you're not looking for an aerial view. And thinking, well, we just got to fill in this space and you just start putting them in. And of course, because we landscape our houses, we do it in lines. That's probably naturally where their mind would go without thinking we're trying to look like nature. Yeah, they're not trying to have a crash site. That's exactly it. That's exactly it.
prototype aircraft, and no matter how thorough the recovery, something was always left behind, a fragment of metal, a piece of plexiglass, some trace of what happened, but at heart canyon there was nothing. It was like the site had already been scrubbed, abnormally clean. But in 1999, the Ramses did actually find something, what looks like a little polished marble, totally out of place. When they showed me it, I encouraged them to send it out to the lab for testing. They agreed, and will show you those test results at the end of this episode. 18 or so people stood up there that morning. Every one of them went home and said nothing. So why, after so many corroborating eyewitnesses, does Aztec carry this stigma? Why was this thing branded a hoax? Now begins part two of our story, the makings of a hoax. The case against Aztec, and the reason Wikipedia lists it as a hoax, all starts with one man, Frank Scully. Some people say, "Oh, he's just a writer for variety." They're missing the whole point. That's almost like a discredit for the depth and knowledge that he had. Scully was one of the most interesting men in American journalism. Columbia trained. One leg, one lung. He'd ghost-written for the great George Bernard Shaw. Behind the flying saucers was published in 1950, and as you know, it was the first public account of the Aztec event. He was approached by Silas Newton and Leo Gaybauer that said, "We want you to meet with a scientist that has an interesting story to tell you." And we feel the story is going to break, but these scientists wanted to break through you. There were eight scientists one died, and they had to replace him. So when you're talking how many scientists were involved to coming forward, it was a total of nine. They met the Mojave Desert with one of them, and he starts to tell Frank this amazing story about a flying saucer recovery. I think they embellished a little bit of the intensity and the urgency of getting the story out, and the reason being I think they were afraid the story was going to get buried so deep that nobody would know about it, and the technology on that craft apparently was something that boggled their mind. Behind the flying saucer was one of the first books ever to claim that the U.S. government had recovered a crashed alien spacecraft. This is well before we knew anything about Roswell. When that came out, years later, in 1979, and he cast the whole story as a cover-up, with the military hiding the discovery to prevent panic and keep the technology secret. These are now motivations we can now confidently attribute to the U.S. government at the time when it comes to UFOs if you just look at documents like the Robertson memo. At first the book was a hit, but after that the smear campaign ensued, and it went up in flames. And for the next 70 plus years, Scully had been reduced to a gullible Hollywood gossip columnist tricked into a story by two con men. But Frank Scully wasn't just a tabloid guy who printed nonsense. The man was a vault. He was the kind of guy people trusted with their deepest secrets. He never released the scientists names, he never released anything, and he could tell. He was just sworn to secrecy upon himself and went to his deathbed with it. I think he was a very honorable man. Years after publishing behind the flying saucers, he was knighted by Pope Pius XII and inducted into the pontifical order of St. Gregory the Great, not exactly the resume of a guy who was universally regarded as a joke. The man who torched his reputation, along with gay powers and newtons, and helped Barry Aztec for over 70 years, was another writer. One who wanted the story for himself didn't get it and held one hell of a grudge. And worse, he had the money, time, and connections to do something about it. J.P. Khan was a journalist at the San Francisco Chronicle, and an ambitious writer who believed that the Aztec crash story could be one of the biggest in the country. When the only outlet of the story was Frank Scully's variety, Khan decided he was the man to turn that story into a book. He approached Scully and offered him $10,000 for the rights to the story, but Scully refused. Scully proceeds and writes it, and J.P. Khan was so embarrassed that telling everyone that he was going to be able to do it, that he decides that I have so much time on my hands, that I will go ahead and just predict what's done. The only Khan was J.P. Khan. Really, he was the Khan artist. Well, he was also somehow connected with J. Edgar Hoover, who we know, I mean, now it's the consensus in America that J. Edgar Hoover was systematically blackmailing people who sought truth and wanted good things to happen in our country. J.P. Khan then went after Scully's sources and painted them as conmen and fraudsters, starting with Silas Newton. Silas M. Newton was an oil man, and not a small one. He then became a working geophysicist who found oil for a living. He was obsessed with magnetism, not just in the context of finding oil. He thought that its principles would revolutionize flight and energy. Very, very successful, very wealthy. In 1950, according to the FBI, it was worth $20 million. He was well off, well connected, and well within earshot of the whole Aztec story, given his oil prospecting ventures in the area. But Khan had his connections as well. On April 25, 1951, he had the California Attorney General's office contact the FBI to look into Newton, questioning his claims of conducting secret government research and accusing him of being in on a hoax. But Khan was probably just feeding the FBI information about Silas Newton the whole time. Remember, J. Edgar Hoover ran the FBI, and he and Khan were friends. So we decided to go through the FBI's extensive files on Silas Newton. We are writing to you because stated, blank, a name, stated that a complete investigation of Newton has been made by your bureau. I wonder if that's J. P. Khan. Presumably, this investigation has confirmed his cryptic illusions to his being engaged in governmental research of a secret nature. Other circumstances come into our attention in light of his criminal record indicate to us that Newton is engaged in the perpetration of a oaks or swindle of large proportions. So before Khan had even come into the picture, the FBI had already dug into Newton's background. A document from July 1, 1941, mentions, "He appears to be a good American citizen, has no accent in his speech, and has never made an un-American or disloyal or unsympathetic remarks." As the Ramsey's point out in their book, it came to Earth at Aztec. It almost seems like Newton was being vetted for something. Maybe he was being screened for some kind of sensitive wartime project, which makes me wonder, at one point, maybe he worked with secret government technology. Because of his geophysical services, you know, record and understanding of geobagnotism, there's probably some overlap between that and UFO research. Oh, I'm sure. And what about Leo Gaybauer, Silas and Newton's colleague? They make out Leo Gaybauer as a radio-used radio-part sales guy. What sort of expertise did he have, radio? A pretty broad adventure. Selectro magnetism was one of them. And like Newton, Gaybauer already had one hell of an FBI file, absolutely massive, and stretching back to years before Aztec. In 1943, the war department is asking the FBI to clear him, so I think he worked on some kind of top-shelf project. In fact, as early as 1942, with at least one memo about him, reaching Jay Edgar Hoover himself, his daughter even told the Ramsey's that agents used to follow her and her sister to school. That is a ridiculous amount of attention and manpower to spend on a guy that's just a hoaxer. And Gaybauer's FBI file is still heavily redacted to this day. Why would you ever redact and censor FBI files on someone who is just a petty con man? It makes literally no sense. There is clearly something more to the story. In some reason that the government and Jay Edgar Hoover's FBI wanted to paint Newton and Gaybauer as frauds. The fraud case finally landed in 1953. The alleged victim was a Denver businessman named Herman Flater, who'd invested in Newton's oil ventures. And in a gadget called the Doodlebub, a device that Newton claimed could detect oil and gas underground. A Herman Flater from Denver had invested in the Doodlebub technology. They were arrested for taking stolen property across state line. A check from an investor. Sounds like they were targeted. Well, they went through seven judges and seven judges said, "Are you kidding me? No, I'm not going to hear this case." So then they asked the FBI, "Are you bringing the Doodlebub that you confiscated to court? We want to operated and show the court how it all works.
So they said yes and they showed up with this horrible wooden box with Scully actually holding the real one and the defense attorney said that's that we've never even seen that before It was made from old military radio parts the judge was like no no there was no no evidence will be allowed to help you It's gonna help the FBI. We're gonna prosecute silas Newton and gay bar So it was a kangaroo court at best But But it doesn't seem like Flater came forward on his own. He might have been talked into it Because it was con that contacted Flater. Con seems like the guy who's pushing Jagger Hoover Yep, it basically to you know take them through this kangaroo court and talk about the checks Crousing state lines, which is ridiculous and then also he's pushing Flater to prosecute them on the duty book. So JP Con feels like the most important node of basically persecution when it comes to Is it did we have we uncovered any sort of intelligence ties when it comes to easy? Well, he was in the Air Force So what if gay power and Newton were right all along what if they were actually set up and what if the Frog case that took them down and buried Aztec along with them was actually part of a sophisticated disinformation campaign But the point is the reverberations of the smear campaign spread to anyone who touched the case researchers writers Scientists a millionaire tycoon. It was universally radioactive The Aztec event was so radioactive no one wanted to touch it let alone Investigated when I publicly said I was starting to explore the case These were DMs I got from a supposedly experienced UFO researcher Recovery at heart Canyon on or about this site on March 25th, 1948 a spacecraft of origins unknown crashed or landed on this mason Most historic sites get markers, but after several decades of Aztec being reduced to nothing more than folklore It was clear no one was ever going to put one here. So in 2007 Susanne and Scott fixed the record themselves by bolting a plaque to the Mesa signed and dated I think the the way the government went about Aztec I'm really making sure people were discredited really making sure Anybody that went near it. They even went after scully. It didn't work. They went after him But I think it was possibly because this craft by all reports Was intact if the government really recovered an intact craft the most valuable thing inside it Probably wasn't the bodies. It was the technology that made it fly. So naturally you'd call in the best scientists you have George Kohler sold radio advertising for the Denver station KMYR and at the time He was living in Silas Newton's house when students at the University of Denver wanted to look for someone to lecture about flying saucers One of the science professors Francis bromine turned to Kohler to find them an expert According to the Ramsey's Kohler initially lined up Dr. John Torrance Tate who they ID as one of the scientists behind the mysterious Dr. G but with the air force trying to hunt down the identities of the scientists connected to Aztec Tate thought stepping on to a public stage was too dangerous So the lecture fell to Kohler himself But then he backed out just for Silas Newton to finally pick up the baton on March 8th 1950 Newton took the stage as the mysterious Scientist X his speech opened with a bombshell Flying saucers were real and someone had already landed on earth Within 500 miles of the city of Denver. There is settled jet late to earth a round object Which had already been identified as being a flying software And if I may venture venture the observation Unquestionably they are interested in our atomic research Newton didn't reveal the exact locations, but he left Aztec's fingerprints all over the story a seamless craft Measuring 99.99 feet in diameter and found with 16 charred crew members This saucer was 99 99 hundreds feet in diameter We have decided that there is a reason All the major ones that this shit broken down total nine Sounds familiar if you read Frank Scully's book it literally says the craft operates on the principle of nine But the similarities don't stop there in Newton's lecture when covering how the flying saucers got here He says they don't travel the way aircrafts move through the sky Instead they move along magnetic lines of force to demonstrate how powerful these forces could be Newton brought up Captain Thomas Mantell the pilot who was killed in 1948 while chasing a UFO near Fort Knox Newton says that the saucer disintegrated Mantell's plane by disrupting the magnetic forces holding it together Didn't say it had been blown out of the air and then crashed and it said it disintegrated Now we happen to know That that can be done magnetic That ship and the others that are flying Fly on magnetic lines of force now these magnetic lines of force No, no barrier They are eternally present Everything that exists on this planet Maintains its form and shape and its being by reason of magnetic lines of force He refers to the earth itself as a giant magnet Held in place by magnetic forces. This is literally true And it's before we discovered the Van Allen belt the earth is literally held together by magnetosphere and Newton's belief Instead of burning fuel the saucers could lock onto those magnetic lines and ride them Almost the way a train rides rails except the rails are invisible The lecture lasted about an hour before Kohler escorted Newton out saying he had a plane to catch But Newton wasn't the only one moving fast Two hours after the lecture ended Air Force investigators had shown up and were questioning students for clues about scientist X's identity They were so desperate that when they heard that scientist X had a plane to catch They even pulled the passenger manifests for commercial flights leaving Denver It never dawned on them that scientist X was Newton and that Newton was living right there in the city Under the same roof as Kohler and before long two office of special investigation agents Hansen and Unger showed up at his radio station Today's episode is brought to you by Quo spelled Q U O the business communication system built so you never miss a call Your entire team can handle calls and texts from one shared number So no more missed messages or dropped conversations Everyone sees the full thread replies are faster and customers actually feel taken care of It's the number one rated business phone system on G2 Which is the premier place where you review these sort of workspace applications It has over 3000 reviews there and more than 90,000 businesses rely on it to stay connected So it has an amazing track record No vanishing no fusing into calendars just your team fully entangled and synced across time zones Timelines and even caffeine levels money is on the line always say hello with Quo Try Quo for free plus get 20% off your first six months when you go to Quo.com/jessie That's q-u-o.com/jessie As you know in 2026 the Department of War started putting UFO records out into the open More than 5000 pages more than 100 videos photographs audio and the way it came out wasn't exactly user friendly It's a haystack and who knows how many real needles are sitting in there So here's what I'd love to build every release pulled apart and rebuild as one timeline You could actually search a kernel turns up in 1978 and again in 2004 and one click fills in everything around him In a clean interface that tells you the moment a new batch drops What's actually new and what was quietly declassified 20 years ago? That is what perplexity computer is built for you hand computer the whole project and it goes and does it It opens the files reads them pulls out the names and dates writes the entries builds the site And it keeps going in the background for as long as the job takes for a limited time only Our listeners can try perplexity computer for free head to pplx.ai/jessie That's pplx.ai/jessie to try computer today most of
AI tools are simply still answering questions, while perplexity computer is completing full projects. Two hours after the lecture ended, Air Force investigators had shown up, and were questioning students for clues about Scientist X's identity. They were so desperate that when they heard that Scientist X had a plane to catch, they even pulled the passenger manifests for commercial flights leaving Denver. Never dawned on them that Scientist X was Newton, and that Newton was living right there in the city, under the same roof as Kohler, and before long, two Office of Special Investigation agents, Hanson and Unger, showed up at his radio station. And I want to have the whole breakdown of who told you about this story. Who else was at the university? What do you know about it? Who told you, and what Kohler did is going into the recording room, he told the technician record this. The agents weren't just interested in Kohler's thoughts on flying saucers. They wanted his sources, who were they? What were these strange gadgets he supposedly knew all about? And most importantly, did any of his sources have connections to the government? Kohler refused to give them a single name. The information, he was told to me as a story, however the names were I gutted from, was entrusted to me as a confidant. And I have no desire to jeopardize that confidence in any way, nor will I. Keep in mind Kohler knows it's being taped, so you can tell he's trying to bait him a little bit. In fact, he turned the questioning back on the agents, pressing them on why the government wouldn't release what it knew about UFOs. Whether Kohler was intentionally baiting the agents or not, the Air Force seems weirdly territorial over a phenomenon that wasn't supposed to exist, and they clearly weren't dismissing scientist X's lecture out of hand, which brings us back to the scientists who were first in line to give that famous Denver lecture before Newton took the stage. One of the Dr. G's, Dr. John Torrance Tate. Jonathan Torrance Tate was an amazing guy, I don't know why, over the years his name kept popping up in Aztec, and I don't mean books, I mean just documents, and then when we were talking to Texas Instruments, they brought him up. We'll have you looked into Jonathan Torrance Tate, who's he? Tate was the kind of top tier mind, whose background in physics, magnetism, and secret military research made him just the kind of man the government would trust with a flying saucer. As long story short, we flew to Minneapolis and got a meeting at the University of Minnesota in their archives, and they were very kind, very helpful, and they have all, they've archived all his records, and there were boxes that were sealed around 1950, right at the time of his death. He died, right? He looked at it. He looked at it. So then it shows in the records that he was in the southwest about the time of that. And March of '48, and he comes back, and this is where he calls this press conference and it wasn't Chris, it was really like a science, it was all the science came, and celebrated it, and he said, it has changed my life. And in that, he talked about technology, I saw on this trip, we will never have to worry about energy, that's already been figured out, we'll never have to worry about food. Food production will not be threatened. Pollution can be solved, health problems can be solved. He's going down this wish list that any scientist would love to be able to say, he says we have this technology now. And he worked closely with Man of our Bush, he worked for him. He worked for Man of our Bush, ran all of, you know, American federally funded science efforts in research at the highest level. But to that, exactly in that nature, through these records, what we consistently saw was that Dr. Tate was a very modest man, he didn't want any attention given to himself. And what we saw was that if you watched his pattern of life all the way, he had focused on the war effort, whether it was, you know, whatever war effort. After that day, that was no longer, he was much more philanthropic and just really focused on human beings. And that was a very powerful, powerful experience for us to see that Mark changed BAM right after that trip. That's amazing. Something important happened on that trip. Completely paradigm shifting, life changing for this man. And he thought it was it merited at least that he shared that with all the colleagues that it was that important. That's right. So the Ramses believed that Tate would be the perfect head scientist behind Scully's mysterious Dr. G. Unfortunately, Tate died on May 27th, 1950, months before Scully's book hit bookstores. But right after the book was released, Scully gave a radio interview where he was asked about Dr. G directly, Scully's being interviewed about Dr. G. He said, "What point do you think we could get Dr. G on the radio and we'll learn more about it." And Scully says, "Oh, that won't be possible." What was the point? He's no longer available. That was right after Tate died. Interesting. Chicago radio station. After Tate dies, they probably injected another scientist because we've come up with 9. And what we did was we took everything Frank Scully said in the book about these amazing scientists. And with the help of Texas Instruments, they're a historical guy. We went through and that's when we found Vanderbours Bush's group in World War II and we went down each division and we went, "Oh my God, that's one of Scully's guys. That's one of Scully's guys." So here's who the Ramsey's believe made up the 9 Man Scientific Brain Trust, the collective identity of Dr. G. Cessle Howard Green, Patrick E. Haggardy, Richard C. Tolman, John Eric Johnson, J. Clarence Carcher, Eugene McDermott, Henry Bates Peacock, Otto Herman Arnold Schmitt, and of course, John Torrance Tate. There's also a 10th possible name, Carl August Highland. If any of you knows any of these people's descendants, please reach out to this email
[email protected]. These were among the best scientists and engineers connected to wartime research in geophysics, magnetics, electronics, radar, and submarine detection. And many of them were connected directly through the Office of Scientific Research and Development or the OSRD. This was nuclear-godfather Vannevar Bush's War Time Science Network. If you needed research done in secret in the 1940s, these were the guys you called. And six of the nine Dr. G. scientists were directly connected to the founding of Texas Instruments. Later known for its calculators, Texas Instruments did some of the most advanced research and development in its day. I'm saying some of that tech might have leaked eventually into Texas Instruments, you think? I wouldn't ever oppose that idea. Let's just speculate for a second and say a UFO crashed over here and it was brought to right Patterson, the United States government looked at it and said, "Wow, this is a really cool technology on this." I would think, in a very short time, get that thing to hell out of the government's hands. The government would want it out of their hands. And because if it's in the government hands, it's subject to a bunch of legal grabings, congressional moves, Senate moves, whatever. If it's in private hands, I mean, hell, somebody like GE or Lockheed, their corporate attorneys could keep that lawsuit going till we all retire and die. So let's say you find something that doesn't fit the periodic table or the laws of physics or basic human sanity. The basic playbook is, if it's weird, hide it. Once it's handed over to a private company, it can essentially disappear. This idea of anomalous tech retrieval and transfer to private corporations was spearheaded by Philip J. Corso. But the number one was the integrated circuit. Number two in importance was laser, because I had some laser instruments also. Then fiber optics came out of this, the imaging devices or night viewing devices came from this. Some of the work we did, let the magnetism and the ICBMs, and it came from this. If any of this is true, and Dr.G's scientists actually did work directly for Vannevar Bush, it gives Vannevar Bush's essay, The Endless Frontier, a whole new meaning. Essentially, instead of all technology working forwards, a lot of it is working backwards. Backwards from an end state of interstellar electromagnetic-based travel. [BLANK_AUDIO]
These extremely advanced technologies can be get derivative technologies that just look kind of alien, but they're just kind of functional in prosaic use cases. A candidate for this would be fiber optics. But before any exotic technology is handed over to a private corporation, someone still has to secure the UFO crash site, calm the witnesses, and scoop up whatever worm hold its way here or fell from the sky. We now know, due to going through documents first hand, with the Ramses ourselves, that the Air Force had all sorts of names for UFOs at the time, and they hid their crash retrieval programs in very cheeky ways. The 4602 in their monthly report had a UFO B section in it where they talked about how many UFOs were seen or whatever reported, but that was all internally. And as you and I were kind of chucked on about, you know, most months they could identify 90 percent. Yeah. We don't want to know about those. Give us the other 10 percent, you know. Here we have the squadron history of the 4602 division of the Air Intelligence Service Squadron. Anything of note in this document. I mean, they mentioned how their whole role is to sort of suppress this in the public and says here reassurance, public mind that no tangible evidence existed to support the fears of an invasion from outer space, or that radical technological advances in developments by the enemy do not exist was imperative. So the real job of 4602D wasn't exactly UFO hunting. Their mission was to manage public perception, keep the headlines boring, and convince everyone that what they definitely saw, they definitely didn't, because nothing calms the public like. There's nothing to see here. Some people might say you guys have a mischaracterization of this organization or this unit, but a testament to how accurately you guys have documented or rather documents and understand the 4602D and the 2006 is that at one of your symposiums, you ran into a group of well cut guys that you didn't know where they came from and it turns out that they were actually part of the modern 4602D and they were sent to you by their command to go learn about the 4602D. Yeah, that was endeavor. They came only for that speech. Wow. Yeah. We similarly had something like that happen in Baltimore too. Yeah. With NSA. And they said we were sent by our CEOs to attend your lecture based on how you do research. They wanted to know what we knew about cryptology and how deep our research went. Wow. I felt honored. Yeah. So whatever the 4602D morphed into, they never really stopped paying attention. And as Scott mentioned, this group wasn't around when Aztec happened in 1948. But according to another one of Scott Ramsey's sources, the craft at Aztec was first taken to Los Alamos, but then it was taken to Wright Airfield, the epicenter of UFO lore, what became Wright Patterson Air Force Base. You guys have uncovered separate evidence that the Aztec crash specifically made its way to Wright Airfield. Yes, we interviewed a gentleman who worked for an instrumentation company for the lack of a better word and that was owned by Eastman Kodak. They sent him, so it would be about a four-year deal, down to Dayton, Ohio. He wasn't given a lot of detail. We've qualified him and his family, so we know where they lived, we know where they worked, we know about them personally. That's what sometimes takes our time to just qualify those people so it isn't just someone randomly saying something. Right. He had read our second book and called Susanna's. I was in Root to Savannah, Georgia on business. Susanna called me and said, "I hope it's okay. I told him the car is a pretty amazing story." He called me and the only thing I had to take notes on was a Burger King bag, I think it is. He said, "I'm pretty sure this is the Aztec craft I worked on. I read your book, I heard you on a couple of TV things, his deal at Wright Patton was they were testing, trying to power up the craft." We didn't go into a lot of detail on that, but he told me the instruments they were working with and that he was proud to have designed and created the second model and even wrote the operator's manual, which was true. He gave me some names that were pretty impressive that worked on the craft. One was an ex-Nopsy lipish, which was known for his work on wingless aircraft. Did he say anything about the craft? Oh, yeah, a lot about it, it was about the Wright Dimensions 100 feet giver take, a litinticular cross-section which Aztec was, a dome top, a small dome bottom. He said, "I can't remember exactly, but 18 feet thick at the widest would probably be accurate. Some of the tests when they were trying to power it up, it would become translucent." He said, "You could barely see the shapes of the people in the craft." Could they fly it at all? No. And would they use high-voltage binding chain nuts? Yes, the whole thing was very high-voltage. The craft going translucent was again something later noted by Bob Lazar. And he saw a translucent, like almost Korean-looking symbols, is that right? Yeah, I saw the wall become translucent and at some point saw some kind of what I would call symbols. As they would get there and be going down in it, there was a rather young nurse which they got to know her pretty good and got more story about it. That's how they found out it came from Aztec. She claimed it came from Aztec. And the only loud in the craft, I forget what it was 15 or 20 minutes, no more. And he said that she told him where they recovered the craft, scientists going into it if they were in there any longer would come out sick. So there is a theory that since the craft was wobbling, as it headed this direction and before it hit the arch-letter ranch, and after that, that the vehicle might have gone into an autopilot. But whether this crash was intentional or not, the craft's final approach gave us another clue to what might have happened on board. There are new developments in radar at the time that might have disrupted the flight path of a UFO. Well, we dug into that 1999 we came out looking for radar bases. Looked every high peak in this area all the way over towards Santa Fe. We found the one at Elvato and we hiked up there in about 2 feet of snow and there it was. Just like they left it in 1957. We didn't know that at the time, but when I went down to Maxwell, it showed in the pictures and they said, well, it looks like a radar base, but we didn't really have one in that area to time. Well, of course the Air Force couldn't find it because it was under the Atomic Energy Commission. Because they'd built it to protect Los Alamos. Even the most advanced technology might be vulnerable to something ordinary it wasn't designed to encounter. For example, let's say you travel back to 1848 with your 21st century starter pack. Your iPhone, your laptop, maybe a smartwatch. At this point, you're functionally a wizard carrying 178 years of magic beyond anything else on Earth. And then, a wagon rolls over your laptop. Someone fires a muskip ball right at your phone. Let's get destroyed immediately. Not because their technology was more advanced, but because a MacBook wasn't designed to survive that kind of encounter. So you go back even further, and a caveman chucks your metaglasses in a puddle. And that's it. The sum total of Silicon Valley technology, gone. Thanks to a guy who hasn't even invented the wheel yet. Now, flip this to 1948 in New Mexico. New high-powered radar systems are sweeping the skies around some of the most sensitive military and nuclear sites on Earth. Pulsing and broadcasting microwave energy we didn't fully understand yet. So what if something centuries ahead of us flies directly through that? Could an unfamiliar form of energy interfere with a craft that wasn't expecting to fly through it? Even if that craft was far more advanced than anything we could build at the time. Radar technology wasn't originally designed to hurt anything, the same way a wagon wasn't designed to hurt a laptop. But sometimes, worlds collide. And remember, advanced doesn't mean invincible. And was this a special type of radar? It was. They were testing it for the Navy. It was called lash up. Lash up later became adopted by the Air Force as well. But these particular ones had a basically over the horizon view. So they'd be perfect for battleships, aircraft carriers, whatever. They could look much further than a conventional radar. They were higher powered than a direct power. When Scott dug into it, he found out the site was originally built in 1946 before being moved in 1950. He also found two other bases close by, Moriarty and Continental, although those weren't active until around 1950 or '51. Bye then, all three.
become part of a system called Lashup. Lashup was a state-of-the-art early-morning air defense network created from several types of World War II radar technology. Our best electronics engineers with unlimited resources and only one objective to develop radar superior to yours. The radar used rotating antennas to sweep the sky with pulses of invisible microwave energy. It would then measure the direction and distance of an aircraft by listening out for the tiny fraction of each pulse reflected back. Lashup wasn't fully set up when Aztec happened. So if Scotts theory is right that an earlier radar base was already operating in March of 1948, could it have played a role in Aztec? Do we know what what a lashup sort of updated on technically vis-a-vis like prior radar systems? Well, the English could British and the Americans at the end of World War II were both working together, but yet competing, and they were basically microwave. That's a lot of the talk that we hear also about what's been happening. You know, if you look at Jake Barber, the psionics, and all of that, and the Northrop Grumman connection, they have in their possession a lot of those microwave cannons. A lot of those would seem to be these large vehicles with these sort of directional cannons on the back that, you know, purportedly have once these crafts are in a vicinity are able to sort of take them down. HPMs, which are high powered microwave weapons, are deployed, and they have an effect where they can disrupt the flight pattern of the object, and when it is an object, sometimes it's not, and it can result in that aircraft being forcibly brought down. Could something similar have happened with radar at Aztec, even if it was unintentional? It's not like the radar's microwave pulses could physically shove a craft off course, but if the craft depended on sensitive electromagnetic controls or navigation sensors, it's very possible that a burst of microwave energy could have interfered in overwhelmed the craft's systems. It's probably no coincidence then that the most popular document on the FBI's website is the notorious "Hotel Memo." Written in 1950, the same year as Scully's book, the document discusses recovered flying saucers in New Mexico, that were specifically brought down due to new high-powered radar installations in the area, messing with the craft's flight mechanisms. If they were doing that 80 years ago, I mean, that text probably come a long way today, you know, if they were even accidentally doing it before, they've probably perfected it now. Probably, yeah. The guys that were involved in Manhattan were overlaying the same ecosystem of secrecy in some of the same ways to upper-text stuff that they were protecting on nuclear secrets. If you read the definition of special nuclear material in the Public Atomic Energy Act in 1954, it basically states any material that releases any kind of atomic energy. That would be retrieved crash material, so it's kind of a sneaky way. No, it is. If you actually read the atomic energy act, if something is not a nuke, but it has radiological energy coming off it, you know, alpha, beta decay, whatever. Same secrecy. Same secrecy. David Grush is noting one of the most clear and long-standing trends in UFO world. That UFO secrecy is bound up in atomic research. Just like Silas Newton said in his speech, "Whoever these beings are, they seem extremely interested in our atomic programs." Unquestionably, they are interested in our atomic research. So American nuclear godfather, Vannevar Bush, being involved in Aztec, would make complete sense. Even his direct report, Robert Sarbacher, who worked closely with him, is on record in letters to Bill Steinman, saying that Vannevar Bush was directly involved in UFO research. Sarbacher is also on record with Canadian scientist Wilbert Smith, saying that he believes Frank Scully's book about the Aztec crash is substantially correct. I would probably ask Sarbacher, Oppenheimer, and be like, what was your thought process in the '40s and '50s, scrolling this away? So if a craft really did plow into the Mesa, who got the call? One clue came from a researcher who put Aztec back on the map in 1986. His book, UFO Crash at Aztec, kicked the whole thing back to life. It was the best map of the UFO legacy program to date, and he never gets enough credit. The great Bill Steinman. Bill Steinman is like the most underappreciated UFO researcher, maybe, of all time. He wrote a 600-page book that's extremely detailed where he outs this committee, which I think maybe in its counterintelligence moniker, is named the Majestic 12, but there was probably some reality to this. But he even talks to, he tries to foie the interplanetary phenomenon unit with this organization that definitely existed, because this was verified by the recipients of this refoir request in the federal government from 1947 to 1950. The fact that we had an organization called an interplanetary phenomenon unit, we know, due to Bill Steinman in his work, and then at the end of his life, Robert Sarbacher, who's clearly part of the UFO story, was running the Washington National Labs's Atomic Energy Expert. Very, very high up. Very high up. Sarbacher writes to him saying that the rumors around UFOs are true, and that, you know, we did have a program, the end of our Bush, Oppenheimer, we're all involved, and so all of this is outed in this book, and so, yeah, I hope he's resting in paradise and listening to this, and, you know, maybe feel somewhat vindicated. Well, he had a job with Lockheed, I probably keep it at that, and quality engineer, quality assurance, and he was warned that, you know, that they didn't really like employees, writing books on flag sponsors. A couple days after the book came out, he got canned. He got fired. He got fired. And never, ever was able to get a job in aerospace or aviation again. Top brass from Lockheed Martin, the ones who sat up down. Lockheed back then, Martin had come into the picture. Well, Lockheed, and they were asking what he was doing out there already, as if they had been tracking where he was going. Yeah, they asked, "So, were you taking trips till weekends?" Well, he's coming out here. I think it was, "Well, what are you doing?" in Aztec, while I'm researching something that happened in 1948, and it came out about the UFO crash, and he said, "We really don't like it. We make a lot of money on government contracts. We don't need you in there," started up. Bill claimed that a couple times at the crash site, as he was leaving, he was followed by helicopters, military helicopters. And that actually happened to us once when we were putting the plaque in. Really? Yeah. I think it was more of what are these guys up to thing, not really a threat. He died in January, a couple years ago, a massive heart attack. She was in the kitchen. She was getting ready to prepare food, and Bill was up in the upstairs bathroom, and she heard a thud. And Suzanne and I had been to their house. They were near good your Arizona. And it was a retirement development. As soon as you pull in, there was the firehouse and the paramedics, and you go up, and there was Bill's house. So, I mean, you know-- He was right there. The paramedics said that they put out some dead at the scene. Do you think there was any sort of foul play involved there? That's so hard to say. It is. You know, I started this, I was young. Yeah. Everybody's Asian, how? It's hard to say. He was, you know, a mature-age mayor. And there would be nothing, for my standpoint, that would leave me to believe that that was, but it's, once again, a coincidence that seems untimely. That's all working. They were in the process of moving, and I don't want to say where, for some obvious reasons. And Bill had been giving us documents that never made it in his book. And Bill and I were really social. I mean, he was a good friend. He went from kind of a grumpy old guy when I met him. What do you have so far? I got this, this, this, this. Call me back when you got more. He was a good guy. He was very, very talented and very talented, very smart. And then years later, I called him, we were doing the first book. And I mentioned that in our new book coming out. I said, what do you have so far? I said, well, no smoking gun. He said, you're never going to find the name gun. What do you got in the way of bullets? I said, where's some new things we found? He goes, keep digging, keep digging. Investigating Aztec costs Simon decades of ridicule and his own aerospace career. It may have even cost him his life. And almost 20 years later, another researcher picked up the mystery and followed it straight back to Scully's widow, Alice Scully. One of the more recent books to come out about the Aztec crash was Chris Evans. Man, he was a CFO researcher who wrote a book called Alien conspiracy. Right. And.
He had met with Alice Scully, right? Frank Scully's. - Numerous time then. - Numerous time Frank Scully's wife. And she had said some remarkable things, right, about. - She told him that there were definitely photos of the Aztec crash still in existence. Did tell him who what went aware. - Yep. - There were two sets of photos if you go back to the original Frank Scully story. One, the government took and they didn't last long. They were almost like a Polaroid film. That at her weeks, they were back to being black. And then two circumstances, well here, Alice talking about there are still photos. Chris said, "When will they surf?" As she said, "Not in my lifetime." So I don't know if she had him or knew who had him. - Chris Evans meets with Alice Scully and it becomes aware that there's real documentation around the Aztec crash. What's urgently meet with you guys and then what happens next? His only concern was the fact he said, "Well, I smoke." And I said, "Okay, you're gonna be in the guest bedroom upstairs. Just kind of open a window or smoke outside." I mean, it was a nice time of year. And he said, "Why I just don't want to be smoking around non-smokers." I had to confess that I was also at back then a smoker. And I think that made him feel better. But he died the day that he was coming to see Suzanne. - And what, how did he die? - According to the West Virginia highway patrol report, he jumped off a bridge. - Did he see him at all depressed or suicidal? - Not with Suzanne. - He was joking with me and we were laughing what we were gonna do as you know, talking, you know, I love to cook. So what can I cook? And all those things. It was just a playful, fun conversation. I was, and when we got the news, it was like somebody punched us. - Did his family suspect any foul play? - No. - There was a little witness, right? That a truck driver ended up being kind of shaky? - Well, the information that the West Virginia highway patrol didn't allow his job but taken the information or the information they were getting was bogus to be in with. We were never able to find the driver. The witness, the truck driver that said he witnessed Chris pulling up, stopping, jumping out of the car and jumping over the guard grill or handle on the bridge. Ironically, his nephew, Chris, was the first police officer at the scene. - At the scene. - They dispatched, said we have a jumper and underneath the bridge there is the, kind of a river, and then there's a farmer that plant at that time corn right up to the river. And apparently Chris wasn't trying to jump in the river 'cause he ended up the corn field. Or he wasn't, he didn't jump, maybe he was thrown. - Intrigued by Chris Evans' life and work, I wanted to learn more about him. So I decided to buy his book, Alien Conspiracy. I bought it off of a random used book website online. When it got delivered, I opened it up and I started reading and low and behold on the first page, it was signed by Chris Evans, dated December 1st, 2004. This was just a year before he tragically passed away. - I want to show you guys a couple of things and maybe we ought to move it up 'cause we could get two to four inches here. - The high strangeness in Aztec goes well beyond the 1948 crash. As soon as we got to the crash site, we had a visitor, a friend who seemed to know all about us. And this was when Chris Ramsey and I had a much smaller following, a friend with Air Force connections and a man who happened to be camping out by the Aztec crash site. One of the most obscure and undesired camping grounds in America, he was just passing through. And I just turned around and there's a light like way out in the distance and it's moving below the ridge line, below the top of the mesa and it's just moving slowly across the horizon. And I'm like, "Man, that thing's really smooth. It's either a chopper or a really slow plane." And then my buddy comes walking out and he's like, "What are you doing?" I said, "I'm getting some wood for the fire." And he looks over and he's like, "What's that?" I thought, "I think it's a plane." So that's not a plane, said, "Look, there's five more people here and I don't want to jade anybody's vision of what they see. So don't say anything." And in fact, let's not say anything until it does something strange and then just point it out. Don't say anything. Right after we said, "I was a 90 degree turn." And we're walking back down to the rest of the group and it was instantly over us. - Yeah, and we're lit up in this greenish light, right? Not, I didn't feel afraid. One of the girls freaked. What do they want from us? She starts screaming. Her boyfriend's like, "It's a helicopter and we're talking like this." As we're all standing there, I said, "Okay, well let's just all get back to the fire." And then that's it. Then I woke up in the morning. So I don't know if I missed time. - That sounds like missing time. - Yeah, I mean, I don't remember laying down and going to sleep or anything else. I just woke up in the morning and then I walked up to the ridge where the truck was parked and the girl with her boyfriend who said that it's a helicopter was sitting there and this is no joke. They're sitting there on a rock and I'm talking to them and I said, "What do you guys think about last night? What do you think about what happened?" And they didn't want to talk about it. They're like, "No, he's just a helicopter." And about 15 minutes later, three Apache attack helicopters come flying on the deck. Dude, I'm looking directly out from the ridge line at their faces and their choppers. You can see all the rivets, you can see their faces not, 'cause they're covered, you can't see anything, but you see everything. And they went roaring by in the same flight path. - Whoa. - And I said, "That's what we would've heard. We wouldn't have been able to talk." I also spoke to an Aztec local who has seen strange lights starting above the San Juan coal mine, right by where he worked. And he saw something unbelievable at the crash site itself. - With the crash site here, it was back in 1999, my grandfather, they're building a house out in Hart Canyon and building the house and it's up on top of the hill. They're in Hart Canyon and down on below the road that goes to Hart Canyon. We see a convoy of black SUVs, like kind of like the movies. The black SUVs, no markings, kind of weird. They're driving out there. Then there's two helicopters flying by, like cargo type helicopters. Well, later in the day, they come back. Vehicles, you know, driving fast. Helicopters come back, but they have a container. And at that time, my grandpa, he's all, he's this wild guy. He's like, "Oh, man, someone's not right. "We gotta go check it out." So he'd drive out, try to find something, try to find tracks where possibly they gone. Well, we came across, I'd say about a mile or two from where right now the crash site where they say it is. From that spot, we found out Kim across the hole. It was about 30 feet deep, 30 feet in diameter, kind of like a circular hole. - Oh my God. - Nothing was there, but I mean, seeing the helicopter go out there empty, come back with a container, seeing that hole. - Whoa. - Next to this crash site, I'm putting two and two together. They found something, and nobody knows what it is. And since then, I never heard anything, never saw anything, and paid for-- - We've gone back to see the hole. - I've gone back. - There's nothing there. - Really? - And it's just, it's a trip. It's wild. - So you think they kind of covered up the hole, basically? - Oh yeah. - And that local, you just heard, Brett Lanier, is now the 60th mayor of Aztec. (upbeat music) - While on the Archileta Ranch, we heard about cattle mutilations occurring in the area. - So no blood, and what about the organs, and the eyes, and the ears? - And later on, I never even thought about checking for tongue, the ears, and the eyes were still intact, but the other was just, looked like a surgeon at taking it off, but no blood. - No, no blood. - Just real clean street cuts. - What was your first instinct, that a human had done it, or that something else? - That's something else, isn't it? - And I was coming from Cuba to, I mean, I was driving home. There was other people on the road, but there was this, it looked like a cigar. And I was like, oh my gosh, there's a plane landing, and it was a big plane. It looked like one of those transport planes from the army. I was like, oh my gosh, it's gonna crash, it's gonna crash right there. And so I hurried up, and I sped around Turtle Mountain, and I got up on top, you're thinking, okay, well, this plane's gonna crash, and there's gonna be a fire, there's gonna be smoke, there's gonna be dust, there's gonna be something, nothing. I drove home really quickly, and I called my mom, I was like, mom, I was like, I saw this plane, like his huge plane crash over by Turtle Mountain, but I didn't see anything, I didn't, she was like, I don't know, I said, do I, do I call the police, what do I, what do I do? And she was like, I don't know, the next day my mom calls. And she said, Christa, what did that plane look like that you saw? And I said, "Well, I've had a lot of fun."
told her, she said, "Well, they tracked a UFO. There was a, I think it was united in a line pilot, who was like, and then they sent it all over the internet 'cause it was all over the internet the next day. I can still remember, I remember exactly where I was at on that road when I saw it. And I know exactly what size it was, and it was just, it was going so slow that I was like, well, it's gonna crash. It's gonna, it's gonna go down. - It was finally time to test that polished marble found buried at the crash site. First, the Ramsey's tested the object on their own with X-ray fluorescence performed by a jeweler, and they got a very anomalous result. In fact, they got back an extremely high percentage of a ridium, close to 40%, which if right, would basically mean this object had to have come from outer space. So more testing was definitely warranted. I decided to hit up my friend Matthew Zodakis. (upbeat music) Zodakis' lab does cutting edge materials research, and he is the perfect combination of hard-headed and open-minded. - Bottom line is we're in it to receive the truth. That's the back bottom line. - So really hoping it's this or hoping it's that or doesn't really do any good and it doesn't really matter anyway. - Okay. I'm getting about 20.5, it looked like 0.6, but I thought I think that was from rolling around. So we'll call that 20.5 grams. Now that we have the number of grams and we have the volume, now we can calculate the density. And then when we have the density, we can compare that to the materials that is supposed to be made out of, including going back to the claim of a radium, which is very, very dense. So I can already tell like this is, it's gonna be nowhere near dense enough for a heavy amount of like a radium. But what we can do is at least check. So what we're doing now is called neutron activation analysis. And it is typically done at nuclear reactors. So we've got tungsten blocks holding it in place. And we just have it gently in between our two California sources. And so what's gonna happen is it's only going to be very mild, made very mildly gently, slightly radioactive. And then we can by reading off the radiation that comes off of the sample tomorrow is what we will find is whether the isotopic ratios match that of planet Earth or not. - Is that covered up? - All right. - And now this would be more true. This is our first goal. - So our main one is showing up here, which is telling me it's probably calcium. Calcium, the secondary peak on calcium also matches up. - Okay. - So we're seeing calcium in it? - No calcium in the original. - Yeah. - iodine doesn't exactly go the way I want it to. But titanium does. - Okay, titanium is on the list. - Titanium I think was on the list. - Yep. - All right, let's see what these other ones are. Let's do the lighter elements get a little bit tougher. You're seeing gold come up. - Yeah. - 3.4% for gold. That one got about five. We're in maybe a different spot. Got some zinc. You got iron. The again, with the young verbatium, you can't trust those 'cause the gun uses those in order to go. 17% titanium, which is dead on what they got. - Yeah. - And we've got lead, but we have no radium. - Can you scroll down there yourself? - Oh, there is others, but it gets less and less and less for the percentages. No, platinum would be the lowest. - Yeah. - So even this one still, this one set up for precious metals. Not sure exactly what setting the original machine head when we were looking for that. But no radium, even in potential, a hallucinatory moldwork could find it. - Yeah. - Well, back to the drawing. - I think that's that. Unfortunately, I mean, we can still do isotopes, but it's probably, it's not looking good at the moment. - If it was 37% radium, you should be able to factor that in and find out what it's weight should be. - Exactly. - That's what it should be. - It should be heavier. Sorry, but that's, numbers don't lie. - We're here to find out. - Yeah. - Over the years, we've had people try and, well, they would jump to conclusions or they would try and encourage us to sensationalize parts of the Aztec story. And Scott and I had never felt that that's the way to do proper research. In fact, we just assumed downplay something rather than prop it up. And the beauty of the Aztec story is, and we're having done, you know, all these years of research, is that it is such a fantastic story. It is a comprehensive story. It's so powerful and a really important part of history. And there's really no reason to add anything to it. It just, I mean, it's purity is a powerful story. - For more than 70 years, almost everyone looked at the fraud charges. They looked at the word hoax, sitting on a Wikipedia page, like a name tag. And while everyone watched that, no one bothered to look at the actual mesa, or call the witnesses, or go out to Hart Canyon and see the crash site for themselves. The whole case just disappeared right out of America's hands. - The only skeptic that has ever been here was Carl Flog. That's because I drove him out here and walked him around and he lived two hours away. - But I might say this. He was against Aztec for years before he ever, you dragged him here. - Yeah, and we had him come up and talk at the library because back then, when we had the Aztec symposium, we always tried to have the pro and the con. And we became good friends. I don't want to paint him in bad light. I said to him on the way out, Hart Canyon really said, "My God, how far is it to the crash site?" I said, "What do you mean?" - You don't know where it is? - No, that's a car. How can you, it would be like theatre detectives trying to solve a murder? Well, you're sitting in New York at the police station. The murder was in LA. I mean, how do you do that? - This is where the story truly gets crazy. While making this documentary, we got in contact with a very valuable source. This person said that a high-ranking congressman he was in touch with was actively investigating the Aztec case. He also said that that congressman's office was broken into by none other than Carl Flock. Remember, this is the same Carl Flock that provided all of the public debunking on Aztec. He's basically the entire reason the Wikipedia page still says this is a hoax. And this is the same Carl Flock who was a self-confessed former CIA agent. The congressman apparently knew it was Carl because the office's security camera caught footage of him. And what was the one thing Carl Flock took from the office? Scott Ramsey's FedEx package that involved evidence surrounding the Aztec case. Evidence he had just sent to the congressman. Now I don't have a smoking gun here and I'm ultimately speculating. But if this is true and I'm pretty sure it is, it is so, so damn it. Naturally, we discussed all of this with the Ramsey's. So the guy, like the kind of main piece of real estate online for the Aztec crash is this YouTube documentary. And it's you going back on kind of the pro, you know, they're with Carl. And then Carl Flock saying that this is all a hoax but kind of repeating kind of the party wine in this sort of very, you know, turned off sort of way. And that's the guy everybody looks to as, oh, he's an expert. The really expert about why this is a hoax and he was caught breaking into a government official's office and he's a former CIA agent, which we know. Which he never denies. So maybe Aztec was a hoax. Just not the one we were told. Maybe the real slate of hand was convincing everyone that there was nothing here worth looking at. And it worked so well that Aztec is the rare case that gets called a hoax by both sides. If Aztec could be successfully buried under the word hoax, what other stories have we stopped investigating because the same label was attached to them? Because of manufactured stigma. That doesn't mean every weird claim is true. Some stories really are hoaxes. But that's what makes an incredibly effective strategy. It doesn't take much to poison the well. You don't have to disprove every witness or erase every fingerprint if you can make the story embarrassing enough that no serious person wants to be caught, look in, which brings me to Scott and Suzanne. Over half a million dollars of their own money on a case that offered them nothing but ridicule. And they spent it trying to give a handful of people their names back, a geophysicist, a developer, a writer who kept his word until the day he died. People who got flattened by this and never got to answer for themselves. I want to give huge props to my amazing cast and crew, not all of them.
only de-Chris Ramsey from Area 52 joined as a fellow researcher, but he was a massive help with production as a field director and overall troop leader. And this story would never have made it to my channel if it wasn't for JP, whose research and outreach to the Ramzys was instrumental in making this happen. Lastly, I want to thank D.P. Arthur Douglas and of course the Ramzys and the people of Aztec. This was one of the most fun weeks of my life, and this video wouldn't have been possible without their time, energy and hard work. "Thank you so much, ye fird, I was blessed." Please go buy the Ramzys newest book. It came to Earth at Aztec, New Mexico, revealed the recovery of a UFO. I'm linking it in the description. This is their third and final book on the Aztec case in their most comprehensive account. They've incorporated more than 30 years of research and previously unreleased witnesses, documents and physical evidence. A lot of things that we didn't have time to cover in this documentary. Now you tell me whether one word on a Wikipedia page still belongs there.
, you know.
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