158 Christian Baudat is the Country General Manager Japan for The Ascott Limited.

(upbeat music) Welcome back to this latest episode of Japan's Top Business Interviews. I'm your host, Dr. Nick Story, president, Dalekani, Tokyo, train in Japan, and all for any of mine. Christian Borough is the country manager for Ascot International. And we're in the beautiful headquarters here of the Oakwood Residences in Midtown. - Yes. - Very beautiful building and beautiful arrangements have actually been your number of functions downstairs in the past. It's always very impressive, very impressive routine that you've got here. So Christian, we've known each other for a long time. You've had different iterations in Japan, but let's go back. And how was it that you wound up in Japan in the first place? And then how is it that you're now running Ascot? So it just gives you a bit of the background on that and I'll tell me about that. Okay, so I graduated from hotel school in Switzerland, the, you know, the first international hotel school, the one in Lossan, Ecolotelia Lossan, which is now, I think, one of the prominent schools in the hospitality industry, but is moving towards a university level education. I graduated in '85 and during my studies, I did an internship in Hong Kong, and I wanted to go back to Asia. Why, why, you're from Europe, you know, Switzerland is pretty good place. Well, I was born and raised about 20 minutes away from the school, from the university. And I knew that if I would start, you know, this career would like to travel and see different parts. I come from a very small town in Switzerland, which is actually famous for a few things. Switzerland, one of them is the first production site of the Nespresso capsules, you know. So sometimes the whole city smells like coffee. So it's a small town, and I wanted to see the world. I then graduated from the school, and was given an opportunity to join the Hilton group as a management trainee, and I started in '85 in Shinjuku. Oh, well, they say you're first posting with Shinjuku. Well, Shinjuku. Wow, that's dropping you in there. I would imagine. Yes, the property was, at the time, just one year old, it was one of the flagship properties of the group, the Hilton International was much smaller than what it is now. And after a couple of years, I was then transferred to a new property in Tokyo Bay, the Hilton Tokyo Bay. Which also must have been raised in New as well. It was brand new. I went, I was there part of the opening style. Okay, right. I joined there in a capacity of managing all the restaurants. I think there were 13 at the time in that place. So we set up the opening and then got to a very, very fast start with, you know, at the time Disneyland didn't have too many restaurants. So when the park closed around eight or nine o'clock, we were flooded with guests. Wow. That property, you know, was a great success from the outset. After another two to three years, I then moved to Singapore, where I had my first leadership role, basically, I was managing the food and beverage operation of the Hilton Singapore. And a couple of years later, I was asked to come back to Japan in Nagoya. I looked at it as an opportunity to, you know, do something different and also to go out, what do you use that? 90. What is it? So 88, 91, 93, 4 is that. Probably that's when we met. Yes, I think that was my way. But you were supposed to be there. I think this is where we met the first time. Yes. And you were, you were pre-cestered Heinz Schwanda? No, actually, I was his assistant. Oh, OK, right. I was Heinz Schwanda's assistant. He was a GM. Correct. Yes, yes. He was my second GM in the property. The first one was a German guy. The second one was Heinz Schwanda. And I stayed there for two and a half years. Meantime got married to a Japanese lady from Tokyo. And then we moved to Zurich, where I became a hotel manager in Zurich at the airport. And, you know, for me, I thought that's it, Japan. And always keeping in touch with the leaders in Japan, a Hilton group. And I was then given the opportunity to go back to Japan to open a property in Hokkaido. This is something Niseko? No, it was in Ota. Ota, OK. It is no longer a Hilton-managed property, but the property still exists. And it looks pretty much the same as when I left it. So I was there for years. And then I went back to Nagoya. OK. As a GM this time. And I stayed there for a couple of years, just setting up the property for the expo. And then when the expo studied, I was transferred back to Tokyo. So more or less 20 years after I studied as a training in Tokyo, I rejoined the property as a general manager. I stayed five years in Tokyo. And then I was asked to go to Fukuoka, to rebrand the Hokka-Sihokote, which was managed by a different operator. They had a change in ownership and the new owner asked us to rebrand the property. And we took a few years, but I stayed there for another five years. And I had a great time down there. It was a good spot for Fukuoka. Yeah, but it was one of the largest hotels. I think the third largest in Japan, Old Brands. And I think the largest acceptor properties in Hawaii that Hilton had at the time. So it was a huge property. I moved after five years to do another rebranding in Odaiba. The same operator that I had taken over the property in Fukuoka, had a property in Odaiba. And we converted it into Hilton. After about a year, I had been doing a GM role for five times. And I had an opportunity to do something different. So I moved to the Middle East, to Abu Dhabi. And I became vice president for one region of the group Rotana, which is a UAE-based hotel operator. I was responsible for about 20 plus properties in the Emirate of Abu Dhabi, Oman, Morocco, Egypt. Although I never managed to get there because of COVID, when I got assigned to the country. And then after four, five years, I thought, OK, I thought maybe I want to come back to Japan. And then I got an opportunity with Okud. That's why we're sitting here. I was given the opportunity to be the country director for Okud in Japan and Korea. I obviously started right during COVID. We opened three properties during this period. I had not been able to travel to Korea. And then last year, Ascot, the Ascot group acquired Okud. And from November last year, I had been given the opportunity to manage all the assets in Japan. And the two South Korean properties went to my colleague who was with Ascot and looking after Japan. And Korea, like I did. So what we did was basically, I stayed in Japan. And he went to Korea. And yeah, since then, we've been working on the integration of Okud in the Ascot family. But keep the brand name, Okud. The help has changed the Ascot. No, Ascot has got various brands in Japan as well. And around the world. It's a large group. And obviously, they were interested in the business model of Okud, which is what we call asset light. Meaning it's a fee business. So in principle, a lot of the Okud properties were not owned or are not owned by either Ascot or Okud. We work on management agreements, basically. That's operating. So amazing Korea. Congratulations on that. You've got a varied crew in different countries. So thinking back to your first leadership experiences. And I guess you must have been managing somebody in Shinjuku and you first arrive here. They give you some look after I suppose. Or yeah, some responsibility for some section, I guess. I think back to those early parts career in Japan where you're managing people, you've come out of Europe, you've been trying that you turn up in Japan, well imagine it's quite different. So what were some things initially you thought? Well this is a bit more tricky than I thought, or this is different to what I expected, or well that's new, I didn't think about that. What were some things that occurred to you as an initial manager, leader? So well when I joined Hilton, I was initially assigned as a management trainee with a few projects to manage. So if you want, I didn't have the official management position, although I had to get things done on behalf of the management. So without having the real true if you want authority or grade or level within the organization, I was asked to deal with a few projects. I think one of the things that I realized is that, and I guess it's a common knowledge, yes doesn't mean yes in this part of the world, correct? And probably and you'd hear this a lot from me when we talk about general management, I think I learned the meaning of validation. Okay, so what do you mean by the meaning of validation? Well you need to check number one if what you're saying is understood. Right, okay. And what you mean by understood, it's whether it's not just registered, but whether it sounds like something for your audience. So do the people share what you're saying, your views, not even talking about values, but sometimes people have different values. So you need to just your language or your approach towards your audience. What would be an example of that? Say someone you noticed someone had values or style or something that was different. And then you think, okay, I need to adjust something here. What would be an example? Would it be your style of speech, speed of speech, directness of speech, or manner, or how would you adjust? What would you do? Well, you know, when you are a young manager and you in an environment that is pretty much, you know, very much top down initially during those days. And then, you know, you need to realize that leadership is also about influencing the business. So, you know, when I was dealing with certain people who didn't necessarily see me as their boss, I had a few examples. So what would I do? Then, you know, first of all, you have to be humble and show respect. But you have to be firm. And, yeah, put your arguments on the table. Now, it doesn't always work because you have sometimes cases where people just don't want to listen to you because they see you as a threat to their career. And, you know, the only objective they have is sometimes, okay, this young kid, he doesn't know what he's talking about. So, let's not help him. And yes, I had a few examples and especially when the people I remember was working in a restaurant and the manager was seeing me as a threat. Yeah, because he had been growing his career and he had the wealth of experience that I didn't have. So what I had to do, I had also, of course, to realize that he knew many more things than I did in many ways. So you need to respect those people, be to respect their knowledge and not put them down. And the funny thing here is that 20 years later, when I rejoined the property, he then reported to me officially. He was still there. And he was a great asset, you know, so I think it wasn't love at first sight. And I think we respected each other a lot. Probably told everybody I tried in Christian when he was here. I'm sure he did. And, you know, in many ways, he was right because, you know, I had a few tough encounters with him. But in the way, he also told me how to be resilient. And if you believe in something, then you continue to, you know, to push for it. So with that experience, when I talk about validation, first of all, I, for me, it's whether the person who you are talking to is believing in what you're saying. And then because he had a management position, also to make sure whether he was passing down, you know, the message to his people. And that's one of the things which I think a lot of my, you know, associates and subordinates have always been surprised is that I always validate at one or two levels below them. That's a very interesting point, Euras, because often senior leadership imagines that the messages that they are broadcasting are being driven down through middle management to the very people of the bottom. But in my experience, similarly, you know, often middle management is like, they're like a sponge on the top and concrete on the bottom. And they suck up all the information from above, hold it as a power play or for whatever reason. And then it's concrete. And then to the next slide, you know, this doesn't trickle down. Well, you know, they, first of all, they tend to filter things out of convenience or maybe sometimes out of not fully understanding what the message was in the first place. And then, you know, the next level also tends to filter down and filter down. And then, you know, it's like you put a lot of water in your coffee, correct? So it's very diluted. And for me, it's always important to make sure that the people understand the message, especially in our industry where we have a lot of touch points, hospitality industry, you want to make sure that the message gets properly communicated. It is always subject to dilution. I mean, you cannot avoid this. But then you do, and then what you also have to do, you have to, from time to time, remind the people and see whether, you know, the message is still alive. And if it is not, then you may have to repeat. At which time you do, you know, you have to do it in a respectful and humble manner, without, especially where in this part of Asia and actually Asia in general, you know, the face value is always important. So don't put them down. But yeah, so I have always, and the fact that during my many years in Japan, I was able to improve a bit my Japanese. So they knew that I could talk to people around me, around them, around, or below the, you know, the department heads I was having. So yeah. The day feel threatened by that because often when the boss is talking to their subordinates, they worry, oh, what are they saying about me? What are the subordinates saying about me? Yes. What information is slipping out here that I've managed to keep suppressed for a very good, long time? So do you, do you brief them that, oh, look, by the way, I'm going to have a bit of a walk around. I'm going to talk to a few people on the team. Just want to get, you know, create my relationship with them a bit more. Or do you just go direct and do it anywhere? Well, obviously the objective is not to go behind the back of your people because if you have people who work with you, part of a team that you manage, that need to have, you know, constantly me going behind the back, then obviously there's an issue there. Either I don't understand them, or they don't understand me, or they're not, you know, fully part of the team. So I, by nature, I'm not someone who likes to stay in the office. So I, people see my work style in my, you know, the way I behave that I go to them. I go to the people. So those, those direct reports to you, the, how did you, how did you explain it to them? What did you say to them about what you're going to do? Well, you know, I would, I would take them to the location that was the subject of a conversation. I would show them certain things that I feel needed to be improved or enhanced, or sometimes just to say, thank you, well done. And they would also see that I would thank the people who reports to him, and give him a face as well. So they would see there is already this, this direct communication with, you know, everybody in general. And then when there was an issue, which was serious, the conversation took place under closed doors, of course, behind closed doors. And I would say this, I had seen something, and I felt it was important for me to deal with this right away. Not to, you know, stab you in the back, but this is what I have heard. And then I go around, I talk to people, do some jokes, sometimes not too funny, but anyway, just to break the ice with the people. So, you know, they don't see me like someone who comes from his golden cage and try to keep, you know, relevance to the, to the team. And yeah, and sometimes they talk to you, correct? And I always when I spoke to someone about an experience I had, I always tend to, I always will go and say, this is what happened. Now, you need to take what I said, but you have to handle that, if you need some health and assistance to deal with the matters I'm here. And again, I was probably in my younger days, I was much more, how should I say, hard and harsh. A bit more direct, maybe. More direct. And because I learned Japanese in environments which were very much like, you know, a bit like a military, you know, the boss, something that is sometimes, you know, my language must maybe not the most appropriate, but also when you're dealing with, you speak a number of foreign languages, I'm sure, but it's a classic case of when you're learning a new language, you have a very limited vocabulary. I had in the beginning that year. To your reference of the subtleties or the nuance of words was not there. So if you get the sentence out, you're happy, you know. And then obviously, when you deal with, when you start to deal with people who are good at what they're doing, we're proud at what they're doing, obviously you get sometimes people who say, "Hey, don't talk to me like this." And from time to time, you know, you have to accept and say, "Hey, wait a minute, he's right." And then I guess this is what you learn during your career that sometimes you have to change your approach. And for me, I had different cases where there were clashes and, you know, you just let things settle down and then even if it is not my mistake or my fault, I would try to be the one to go and say, "Listen, let's talk it over." So you know, you're a very tall, imposing person from a Japanese point of view, this most Japanese is not very tall. So you represent physically, you know, a tall man looking down at smaller Japanese. So even if your words are not necessarily so hard or harsh, just your physicality could be intimidating, I guess, for some people as well. Yeah, I never thought about that, but, yeah, I mean, looking down at people is something that can be quite, you know, scary for some people. Again, you know, if you're in a certain position of authority, not to brag, but, you know, the fact that you have to talk down to people simply physically, you know, maybe that's accepted. The only thing I know about, when you talk about this, is that whenever I was entering the offices, the people who are bodhisattva is coming back to the office, the way I walk and, you know, so people were, "Oh God, what's going on?" But I think also when we have conversations with our people, I would tend to do it sitting down. And also, like we're sitting now, so if I have an important discussion, I don't sit behind my desk, I sit on the other side of the table and we have two chairs and we look at each other like this. So again, to break a bit the ice and to, when I do it, the other party would say, "Okay, something is happening there, it's serious," or whatever, or I would take their mother of the office, go to a quiet place and say, "Listen, let's have a talk or something like this." So yeah, try not to be in a position where I'm looking down physically at them so that they don't feel like intimidated by my physique, if you want. It's interesting. I worked in a previous company where I remember someone pointed out how one of the leaders who was, again, like you quote a tall and posing sort of guy, he actually had worked out to reduce his energy, to not diminish his size, you can't diminish your height. But to really, in some cases, when he's dealing with Japanese or non-Europeans, to really drop the energy and take a lot of that threat or that feeling of intimidation possibly or just the overpoweringness of the physical proximity to try and help people feel a bit calmer and dealing with him the way he spoke, the way he moves, he actually mentally, at some point, had worked out that maybe he was a bit too much for them and he had to tone himself down, again, in Asia, to fit in, so it was in point. I think it is not just something that is typical to Japan. Okay, the fact that I'm maybe taller than the average Japanese colleague is, yeah, that's the fact, but it's also the same maybe in other countries. I think the most important thing, generally in terms of leading, is to have a respectful behavior and attitude towards the person you're talking to. If you just want to exchange ideas, if you want something from the person who's sitting opposite of you, or if you just want maybe to provide an advice or counsel the person, either way, I think wherever you are, and I think especially now when you deal with a younger generation, it's not a given that they will accept you as a leader at the outset. You feel that there's a change there? I think so. How do you ascertain that? Generally speaking, subordinates are pretty ninja-like at masking their thinking and masking their exposure and expressions to bosses, things that fit in, but subterranean, they may be thinking something entirely different and I don't really want to follow this boss or leader. I don't respect this boss or leader, I disagree or whatever. So how have you ascertained that things have sort of had a movement there? Well again, validates, so you explain. You try to start a conversation, to assess whether we are aligned and then I would then after a while discuss with the group where that person for example belongs and just to see if the message has passed through and so on. When it comes to understanding the expectations, I found that recently the behavior or the attitude is more like what can I not do for the company, but what can the company do for me and it's nothing I can change as such. Is there something that's coming up in interviews when you're hiring people, is it something that's coming up in performance reviews, when you're talking about their career and the company? Is this trigger or this feeling that there's a power shift here or an attitudinal or expectation shift? What are the sort of triggers you're noticing? Well, it can't start with interviews where some people are very clear as to what they want or they don't want to do. Just getting a job is not enough, I think the attitude of okay, I just get a job and do what the boss wants, I think that's no longer the case. In interviews, people would choose certain career paths and make it clear that I didn't really see this during the earlier stages of my career. Then certain examples or certain experiences I had recently were someone said he did not want to do a certain role, felt that didn't fit him, so you just wanted why did he take the job, for example. These kind of responses were not common in my 30s when I became a department head. Also because I have a 25 years old daughter who sometimes talks about her experiences at home and at work, but when we are at home, I say, "Wait a minute, I mean, that's not the way it's supposed to be, but I guess it's a generation issue." My daughter's 29 and talks about work with me sometimes, I think, maybe just sort of suck up a bit harder here and be a bit resilient and stop winging and keep going with it. Yes, they always have the victim mode, you know, you guys are more like you say in Japan, but again, they also, maybe that's because maybe they are bringing, but they are also much more independent. So, you know, if you deal with people from who studied overseas or people who lived overseas Japanese as well, they obviously are much more assertive and proactive in expressing their views. And I guess it also has to do with the fact that you know when I was in a younger leadership position I was dealing with junior people with just freshly joined the industry and had so much to learn and now in my position I'm fortunate to have a very good team with me but that has much more experience correct so and they also have an opinion and they are where they are because they're also able to you know to defend themselves and explain and and basically deliver something so they are much more confident in what they do and that's one thing you have to realize as well I mean respect the people who are working with you and listen to them in terms of your experience in Japan because you've had a number of leadership level roles here including the gyms of a number of big hotels what things did you find work will for you to get the team really engaged because you know there is there was that issue of generation change as I guess but you know I have a job I did paid I turn up that's enough as opposed to where rebranding this property or where launching this property and there's a certain energy you know certain passion enthusiasm for the work and but some people don't ever get that but others do and you find that I do these sorts of things I get more energy commitment engagement passion from the team for the work what things you found works well and that because well you use the word passion and for me it's very important so you have to work to talk and if you want your people to be passionate about what they do you have to be passionate about what you do as well and you know I have I think people know if I'm in a good mood or bad mood and people see if I'm passionate about something or not because I tend to express it either body language or the way I talk about certain things and sometimes I never stop talking about it so it means they know that I'm very passionate so first of all you you have to show that you believe in what you're trying to you know have done you believe in what you want to push through I think that's the most important thing because if people say that you're just a messenger and you don't believe in whatever you're trying to push they won't buy it okay so a good salesman has to be passionate about what he sells or at least it has to appear as being passionate about what he sells but in the end if he doesn't believe in the product he won't be so successful so I think that's that that was really I think the important thing and then the other thing which I always tell my my team you know gratitude so people come to us as a guest by choice so we have to be grateful of them choosing us but now that it's the same for us associates I tell HR and I tell people who have new commerce I say guys don't bully the new commerce you have to be you know show gratitude that they actually chose to come with you because today they have a lot of choices correct especially in the hospital of the area I guess you know I mean there's been a downturn in the numbers because of COVID but in terms of there are lots of people I think I saw in the paper today something like 85% of of restaurants feel they're short staffed all this time I think so there's a bigger demand there is a supply and demand and supply and economics tells you very quickly where the power lies doesn't yeah and I think that unfortunately during COVID people realized there are other options in terms of professional choices plus this part of the world relies a lot on you know casual labor part-timers who found other occupations and don't not too keen to come back you know a lot prefer to ride on a bicycle and do you buy the jobs which are I think tough as well then actually work you know in in in a hospitality industry as a part-timer to you know to to earn the life or to pay for the studies or I guess because they feel there's their own boss you know and and they have maybe more choices so the the labor shortage the talent shortage is a big issue we have in our industry absolutely so that's why we we have to you know when someone comes to me and says oh this person is no good I said okay why okay what can we do can we find a role that fits more the personality or the skill set instead of saying okay let let that person go because yeah there's there's there's less people who are willing to join our industry and and the ones who are willing to join the industry maybe don't have always the same mindset that we had many years ago because there's so much choice around if you want to be successful as a leader do the leadership training for managers course all companies need people who can both manage and lead leading people screams out for real skills and communication dealing with all different types of people being excellent at innovation planning delegation handling mistakes doing performance reviews really well and inspiring and motivating the team do the leadership training for managers course now you know either Japanese or English are you doing business with Japan do you really know how things work Japan business mastery provides the answers do you have the right networks and know how to create them do you know how to get on the same wavelength with Japanese buyers do you know what being trustworthy looks like from the Japanese perspective Japan business mastery is based on more than 30 years experience in Japan and will become your go-to guide want to succeed in Japan by Japan business mastery now I think you're right I'll give an example recently I there's a very nice Italian pizza outlet in Ebisu they have a headquarter in Napoli so this is the local Japanese headquarters here and been going this since they opened and earlier this year was a very cold windy night maybe March and I dropped my wife off well I was going to pack the car she'd go get the table and as I sort of drive away I noticed in the revision she's standing on the street and the wind in the cold that's a bit odd so I packed the car came back so it's going on one and she's been in the restaurant by that time she said I'll wait her told me to wait outside this is Japan what this guy is in his 40s he's not a kid and I looked at the guy I said later I said why did you make my wife stand outside in the cold in the wind when she could have been inside the restaurant you got the table clip on what you like at MSN I'm terribly sorry so here's the manager no who's the manager this guy get him over here you know but I thought to myself that restaurant is facing the problem the talent problem that you mentioned before we're all going to face off simply not enough people so people who normally we wouldn't even entertain and point we'll employ them because we just need people so the how you deal with them how you train them which jobs you give them we're going to have to have a lot more flexibility as leaders I think going forward than we've ever had in my view yeah and that just a simple little metaphor for me when I saw that I thought I get you guys can't get staff to wait and you're going to take anybody and this guy's an absolute idiot and he shouldn't be employed but you don't take him anyway because you've got no choice and that's going to be all of us is what I was thinking myself yeah yes in in in many ways yes and but you know again that 40 years old guy who you know kept your wife waiting outside maybe he was following some kind of a manual could be and you know hearing what you say you can react two ways you can say oh my goodness this guy shouldn't be there or you have to think okay why does he react like this and if you're a manager of today you have to realize okay you have to check why is it because my instructions were wrong is it because the gentleman doesn't understand or is afraid to you know to let the guest in and wait in from or inside in there's many reasons why maybe he has done that and as a manager I think you need to realize you need to check this first before you you you're just to whether this person is in the right role and I think that's one of the challenges that I'm trying to one of the things I'm trying to discuss with the team I had yesterday a lunch with all my property managers the residences managers or the GMs and we were talking about the current issues we have and I said guys you need to sit with the with your team and you need to understand if this person I mean we were talking about some people who recently joined us and who didn't feel comfortable to work in a luxury product of ours and preferred to go to what they thought was, you know, more simple, but we need to, instead of saying, "Why are they reacting like this?" We need to say, "Okay, we need to talk to them and validate their views on what is service industry." And in the past, you just said, "I'll go or out, you know, you had a choice." Because a whole bunch of other candidates waiting in the wings don't like that one. We replace them. But today, maybe the replacement's just not that easy to find. And again, maybe that person actually doesn't meant to harm your wife. It's just the values that he had, you know, been told. And so, yeah, just don't, at the outset, say, "This person is hopeless, we can't deal with that person." I think you need to give people a chance. And one of the key roles of the leadership, I think, in today's days, is to give people a chance and guide and coach. And you might find some jewels, you know, you might find some people who end up being your stars. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but at least you've tried. And in terms of, you know, one of the critical entry points to getting creative ideas, innovation, improvements, be it kaisen or big leaps, is that people care. And so we talked before about the importance of, you know, getting engagement and how you get engaged. And we talked about that a little bit. So thinking about that, presuming you've got people engaged, what things have you found work well to draw ideas out of the team as opposed to the boss is the total repository of all the ideas and the boss just gives all the ideas to the team as opposed to the boss is getting ideas from the team. What do you think works well in terms of getting innovation? Well, you got different situations. You got situations where maybe you do it for the first time. So they wait for you to say, just pick up first. Okay. So all right. So that may take a bit of time to warm them up. And one of the other things is, and there's probably something in the industry where people don't really get out much. So, you know, I would encourage people to network with non-hospitality people, different industries, you know, creative members, you know, people who are in IT marketing and, you know, a fashion, for example. And that, you know, just to open them to other things. I attended a seminar the other day about delighting guests in Japanese by one of the chambers of commerce actually was a joint event. The things that I found quite interesting was, there was a representative Louis Vuitton, an MDH who was telling that Mr. Ahno, the founder, told his people where to get new trends for ladies, shoppers. And he was telling his people to look at Japan, to look at customers who walk through Shibuya, you know, the young Kokos, because they were always very fashion punches. And they are, you know, probably starting a trend that then could become a global trend. So, in the same, you know, thinking about what he said, I said, yeah, I personally tried, you know, I do interact with my colleagues of the industry and I have some very good trends in the industry. But I also tried always to look outside and get ideas of, you know, what can be done within my own environment, but also encourage the people that are working with you and also, you know, should come up with ideas and to understand the trends, see what's going on around. And, yeah, I mean, walking into department stores, for example, if you're in the food and beverage industry, you go in the Patika and you can see all these different trends. You go on Valentine, you see the 200 types of chocolates, and you see the creativity. So, what I would do is to tell the people, just go out, see what's happening in the world. And don't be afraid to come up with something. And, you know, a lot of good ideas come, sometimes not to, but let's try. It works, it works. So, that's the, I think another very important thing is don't discourage people to fail. I mean, they can fail, they have to learn and, and then go on with something else or something different. That's a very good point, because as you and I both know, having with you a long time, this is a no defect, no failure, no error, society where these things are usually not tolerated. That's why I always think that sort of, you know, new products that aren't fully developed, you know, I can have trouble here when people make mistakes, have a handle, makes a big difference here. And so, that messy process of innovation, of trial and things, by its very nature, you know, it's going to have problems, you know, so the organization has to assure the people that you have permission to fail when you're doing something new, and we'll either succeed or we'll learn. And there's no failure, but that concept is not necessarily rooted in the culture here. So, what do you do to assure people that it's okay to try things, it's okay, and if they don't work, we'll learn or we'll improve it or we'll reject it. How do you go about giving them the freedom to overcome their cultural bias against trying things and failing? Well, you know, I guess it's my day today, the behavior where I say, try, works, it works, doesn't work, okay, fine. What I do not accept is people not trying. So, I would, you know, I would say listen, status quo is a no go. For certain things, yes, you need to, you know, you need to have stability. What I want people in a leadership position and people who have to encourage their teams and so on, and I want them to not stand still. How do you do that, because, you know, the country here is stability, harmony. I make this joke Christian bird, I say to people, Japanese love change, they look at me like I've gone completely nuts, you know, I say yeah, they love change. They want the company to change, they want their boss to change, they want their colleagues to change, they want the clients to change, they want the market to change, but they don't want to change, you know. You have that sort of, you know, don't, don't rock the boat type of mentality. And actually encouraging people to put their hand up to suggest something, to step out, to do something hasn't been done before. We're overcoming a lot of baggage, I think, in the country here to do that. So, what have you found works well to encourage people to try to actually raise their voice? Because it's the easiest way to make no error in Japan is to do nothing. So, if you want them to do something, you've got to get them to encourage them to do that. What are you found in works well on that regard? I think, first of all, our organization is reasonably flat, if you want. We don't have too many levels. And it's pretty streamlined. I have direct relationship with the CEO of the company, if I would have been maybe with a larger organization, there would have been various layers. And, you know, to be able to convey the message or to be able to convey to the team that I have been entrusted and empowered to drive change, there is no the right way or the wrong way, there is the best way. And I think this is a company culture as well. So, first of all, you know, I have this alibi, if you want, which I can communicate to the team. And then. So, the alibi is that you take responsibility? Is that the alibi? Well, yes and no. I mean, as a leader, you have to be responsible and accountable. And you have to tell the team, okay, let's try. You can try. If it doesn't work, you know, it doesn't matter. And if I have to explain it to someone, I will explain it to someone, okay. You have the authority to change certain things. I'll give you a cover. And so, the people feel protected in a way. There's an environment where they feel they're not going to be shot down if something goes wrong. You know, I said I'd be shot if it's necessary, don't worry. And the other thing is, when something works, give them credit. Yeah. Don't take the credit, you know, like say, oh, I'm a genius. I'm a genius. And then, you know, the people who have actually come up with the idea. We'll say here. What's wrong with this guy? That was my idea. Exactly. Thank you for stealing my idea and making yourself look good with your books, yeah. Which happens, right? Which happens? Yes. You know, and those kind of buses don't have usually a very long lifespan, correct? That's true. Because that's a good say going into the question about trash, isn't it? Because telling people, we're looking for the best way we might find, you know, things that don't work, but it's okay. We're going to try and I give you permission, you know, I'll give you air cover. Then they do something, they make a mistake and then you go whack across the head for making the mistake. Boom, hang on, wait a minute. The boss said one thing, but he actually didn't know. Or, yeah, let's have the great ideas. And then you scoop up the ideas and you tell your boss what a genius you are. And then they get no accreditation for that, or no recognition for that. Again, hang on, wait a minute. That was my idea. Why is he taking all the credit for that? So, what do you think about building trust in Japan? What things you found works well in building trust here? Well, as you know, the notion of individuality is not always very strong. Although, you know, you see the Honda, some of the founders of some of the big companies, you know, Panasonic and so on. They were very strong individuals as such. But I think the building the trust is also to be able to work hand in hand. And if you see that certain people need resources or, you know, that you're basically able to bring in some support or some help, some assistance. So they see, okay, if there's something to be done and there's a blank somewhere, if you are able to fill in the blank or to create a link that allows them to move forward, without saying, "I'm the boss, I'm going to tell you what to do." Okay, I see a problem. Okay, let me make a call and see if I can get someone to help you. And then let them do things. People will say, "Ah, this guy understands what we are doing. He understands the challenge we have." And then if there is a missing link, he's able to, you know, assist us in getting this, supporting me. It's support, yeah. And at the same time, your support is not effective if it's not, you know, fully understood. So the fact that they see that you understand that challenge is and that you can bring in something to the table. Because it's, you know, it's like in the culinary world, you will gain trust and respect if your subordinates can learn something from you. I've noticed this in particular with culinary, you know, world where a chef who comes from overseas and is not able to teach the people, like artisans, if you want, and he cannot show his skills, he cannot show what he's actually able to do, he will not gain the trust. And he will be put aside in Japan, you know, how it is, you're not being told right in your face. So you've been pushed in the corner until, you know, at the edge of a cliff, until you have only one choice, is either jump or just say, "Okay, that's it, I'll give up." Correct? So, earning the trust is, yeah, it's to show the people that actually you know what you're talking about and you can help them to get their job done. You talked before, you know, you've hotel that started up or rebranded or, you know, taking on big responsibilities with big organizations, you know, see who could that type of thing. What have you found works well in terms of building a culture? Because generally speaking, there's a global culture around the world, but then of course there's always a local variation. And then you have the team within that, like you have your global, Japan, then you have, like, the sea hawk team or the Hilton team here or there or the, you know, the Oakwood team, whatever. So you've got sort of different levels of culture. In terms of sort of what you've found works well in building a culture in a team, what things you've worked on it. That's a million dollar question. I think in my past experience, whenever I took over a team, first of all, don't disregard the existing culture. Try to understand it. Because people in our industry, hospitality industry, everybody is joined more or less for the same reason. They want to be in the hospitality industry. They want to have a guest contact. They want to be in front of customers and please and excelling what they're doing. Now, how they do it and what they have been taught on how to get there can create this different culture. And I think the reason why people are there is something that we need to remind them. Guys, we all here for the same reason. There's many different ways to get there. But let's see how we can create our own culture. Because again, I hated when I was working in the company and, you know, this is the Hokesway and this is the XX way. No, let's do. And this is one of the reason why I was actually very pleased to be able to give them, able to move over to ask because I've been told this. We understand it's a big role to take over and integrate these two companies. So the objective is the same. We have to please our guests. You know, we have to generate returns for owners and strengths in the value of our brands and do what you think is right. And, you know, there's not 200 ways of doing the right thing and providing a service to the guests. So for me, the best thing to change or get a new culture that works and it is relevant at the time is to, you know, respect the heritage of the company that we're maybe taking over. And explain what are the objectives and how we can get there together. It doesn't always work. You have certain people who don't feel comfortable to stay within this new, if you want, environment. They were more comfortable in the previous and those people would typically leave. And it's fine, you know. So, I think you get that too in the sense of when I worked at Shinshey Bank and the retail bank and one point there, I don't know, I can't remember how I realize it, but we were doing quite a lot of recruiting. We had a thing called the Shinshey Dream going at that time and we were getting a lot of really good quality people. But at some point, the balance between the existing team and the recently hired team changed. And I realized, oh, we've got more mid-career hires in this team now than we have who originally been with the bank for a number of years. So what's the culture of this organization now? Because what we've got is no dominant culture anymore. Because the dominant culture is this disparate of all these other individuals bringing the cultures of these other companies with them. So I took my boss at that time and I said, look, I've realized this. I think we need to build a Shinshey culture that is like a one culture and new people come in. They absorb into that rather than having a disparate set of cultures. Let's make one culture. And we worked on that and we did a lot of work on that. So, but in your industry too, you've got a lot of people coming and going, I guess. So we're trying to, you know, have you absorb people who are coming from a different industry or even not necessarily industry, maybe a different organization who've had a certain culture that we're going to now adjust to your culture or become an acolyte for that culture. How does it work for you? Well, I mean, if you really think very carefully, I mean, what you want out, what you want out of the culture is pretty much the same, correct? So you have to find a common language. You have to formulate maybe a message that is easy for everybody to understand. And then you have to work to talk. So, you know, if you say you're going to give better work life balance, for example, you have to provide this to the people. If you say, okay, listen, there's no shouting and screaming, then you have to make sure you don't shout. But I guess, you know, there are certain people who believe in the mission statements and all the company cradles and stuff like that. I think it can help. Sometimes it depends on how mature the organization is and if there's a lot of tweaking that is required or not. But I think it's just to communicate, communicate and communicate and validate if people are aligned or not. And if they are not aligned, okay, what needs to be done through networking, bonding, exercises and and and I think if you want to create a culture you want to create a culture where people feel comfortable to express themselves people feel comfortable to try and sometimes fail and also where certain people want to grow and certain people are happy with what they're doing and and and those people are very often very important go stable yeah and you have those people are sometimes the pillar of your organization because they are the ones who you know if you if they leave all of a sudden you will feel the you know the gap the gap so I think that the the trust or the culture is it's something that comes with talking to the people listening to the people and one of the I think the most important things for a leader is to listen to his people then realize if there's a certain level of gap that you need to feel if you're going to get some advice to someone who is being told okay you go to Japan you're going to run a organization in Japan they don't know Japan they don't speak Japanese get on the plane if they've been smart they would have been listening to the 150 plus episodes of this podcast before I got on the plane but I haven't discovered it yet but if they had a chance to get some advice from you on how to be effective here in Japan as a leader what advice would you give them well first of all remember yes is not a yes high means I hear you doesn't necessarily mean I agree with you then listen and observe don't be put off by oh this is Japan because in many ways it's not so different from other parts of the world but instead of just saying no just say okay so show me what Japan is so listen and you know when I when I when I start in any job okay my first month is a sponge mold I absolve my second month is a processing so I squeeze a bit this sponge and see what comes out of it and I I start to formulate certain directions I want to go and the third month is when I explain and start to execute so I've always this 90 days period and but what is really important is that you need if you come and have no exposure to Japan yeah you you need to understand also when people are silent because silence can mean a lot of things correct so listen listen observe observe first is very important don't come and just try to destroy everything because you Japan's broken luckily I'm here to fix it now you know and you and I know the more you think you know about it the least you actually do correct and in the end I think don't disrespect the people that have been you know keeping the company alive and don't well so respect and listen and then yeah if you don't understand just don't be afraid to say sorry I don't understand you have to show also a bit your human nature correct and then when you have to make some tough decisions make the tough decisions I think people also expect you whether it's in Japan everywhere around the world you know you have to be fair and you but but you have to also be able to take some decisions that others don't want to take for the for the good of the company of the good of the group or so I for people who start in Japan yeah I would really say listen and observe should I learn Japanese I think it can help I don't think this is the priority but I think that if you're there for the long run yes it would help I've learned Japanese by obligation in a way that I actually never learn how to read and write I found myself in my second job with 220 people reporting to me 160 when you graduate with zero experience in the hospital in industry other than their school or more vocational school and 90% did not speak English okay so that's exciting yeah it was exciting so you know and and and then maybe at the time if my vocabulary was very restricted and and and you know probably the words that I remember the ones that some of my Japanese superiors at the time had pushed down to me but yeah so Japanese is if you if you stay here for the long run I think it is the best it makes sense because it's also shows you know you I think also with the nuances and stuff like this it helps your communication so I wouldn't yeah but I wouldn't put this as a first priority I think what is important is first of all to understand and listen to the people now you will tell me that if you don't speak the language how can you listen correct so then you need to find someone that you can trust and and and a very good translator if it's needed but even through a translator I think you can understand and of course obviously you need a translator that doesn't filter things like it often happens but also I think when you're dealing with foreign languages because you can't understand everything that's going on your read of the body language becomes very sensitive absolutely and you're observing really beyond the words what's going on here and then you're getting a sense of what's going on here with that person how they're feeling which is probably a very heightened sensitivity when when we speak in English you're an excellent English speaker right so I don't have to really zero in an observing nuance of your body language because we're speaking perfectly in English but if we were speaking in I don't know French or Swiss or something like that that I didn't speak or German or something then I would be you know struggling but I'll be observing you very carefully and probably when we're doing with Japanese language you're probably doing the same thing we're observing really critically to suck every possible correct extractive information out of that message giving us yeah so the tone of the voice and and the sound of the phrase sometimes will tell you you know maybe more than the words okay think that you have to be careful as if you are doing this in the two obvious way you know always observing like this the person that is talking to you will feel quite uncomfortable because they don't know what's going on there but yes you know one of the things that I always say tell people who say oh I don't speak good English or say listen you don't have to understand 100% you have to understand the meaning and what is being communicated but maybe you don't understand each some of the words individually you know you you don't always understand 100% but as long as you can communicate and you know my first encounters with people when I started to speak Japanese was they looked at me with a big question mark on their head and I said to them you understand correct what kind of you must net and then they said hi I said okay fine you know did well so and and and okay it was far from being perfect now it's still far from being perfect when I speak Japanese but as long as the message gets through I think it is very important what your definition of leadership well it starts with lead so lead means guide can mean mean a lot of things correct but I think a good leader or the definition of leadership is probably ability to influence in a positive way the environment or the area or the the place that you are supposed to lead and yeah I think the word influence is important the the fact that you can generate trust and growth a good leader would be able to grow not just a company but also grow the the people and a good leader is also a human a good human being I think you hear a lot of people have a high IQ and low EQ yeah yeah it can work for a while but in in the end you know I think someone who is a low EQ but super smart and and he's in a leadership position might find himself when they're very lonely and I think there's a certain limit to to how much responsibility organizations are prepared to give someone like that yes ultimately it's all about people. Yeah. Doesn't matter how, unless you're robots, but if it's bad people, you build little leaders. Well, I think also the notion of leadership will change with, you know, all the technologies and all the tools that you now have, you know, AI and so on. May have, may also have an influence on what the leader of the future is. And, and, and, you know, maybe for certain leaders, less interaction, more technical knowledge. But in my industry, I think, yeah, as you said, the people remain the key for our business, whether it is our customers or whether it is our associates. Well, thank you very much, Christian. I've really enjoyed hearing your background and your thoughts and insights as being fantastic. Thank you. Good conversation. Thank you very much. Thank you so. Please join us again for our next episode of Japan's top business interviews.