14 Patterns Behind the World’s Greatest Minds - David Senra - #1126

I'm a lazy workaholic. I have to force myself to do it. My demeanor would be to do nothing. What's that mean? - Okay, this was shocking. So I've been a massive fan of Rick Rubin for probably decades. I grew up listening to rap. He founded one of the most important hip hop record labels in his dorm room when he was like 18 or 19. He thinks he's 63 now, and he's still making incredible music. So I've done a bunch of episodes about him for going back like five, six years ago, for going back five, six years on my other podcast founders. So I've read biographies about him. I've read his book Creative Act. Have you read Creative Act? - Yes. - Okay. And so then I had the opportunity to meet him and then record an episode with him. And I thought, you know, I've read his biography of an organ, I've watched every interview with him. I thought I kind of knew what to expect. And that was when he said, "I'm a lazy workaholic." You can even watch the clip on the show where it's like, "You're lying to me, Rick. What are you talking about?" 'Cause out of anybody in the world that gets paid to be themselves, you would say like Rick Rubin's got to be towards the top of that list, right? And I thought he was just completely obsessed with music. I thought he was just obsessed in an absolutely loved his work. And his whole point is just like, "No, I have to force myself to do it." Like I like the act of creation. I like finishing the creation. But the five months of us doing thousands of takes, he goes, "I don't like that. I wake up every day." And I'm like, "Oh, it's not like, the line he said, he goes, "It's not like I wake up every day." And I'm like, "Oh my God, I get to go to work today." He goes, "Oh no, I have to go to the studio." And the reason I wanted to talk to you about that was 'cause when you put that out, I got thousands of messages from people in all walks of life saying, "This is exactly how I feel." Like I love after I'm done working. I like some parts of it, but I feel that I have to force myself to do it. And Rick's hilarious 'cause he's just like, "You know, it's a beautiful day." We filmed that Shangra-La, his recording studio, Malibu. And I think I might have said or he might have said, he's like, "I'd rather just be out here but naked in the sun." And so in the studio. There was a part of me that doesn't want to show up for anything and I have to overcome that every day. Yeah, that's his, that's a cool direct quote from him, which is again, shocking, considering. 'Cause you know, I understand if you're trying to do something you do for a year, maybe five years, maybe you can you struggle through that for a few years. But this guy's been in the same industry, the same business, likely doing the same trade for four decades. And he says, "He's felt like that forever." He's like, "Now he just has a lot of more control over his life." He was telling me that like the first 25 years of his career, it was essentially seven days a week, 16 hours a day, in a dark recording studio. It's tough to do if it feels like a burden, if you have to make yourself do that. And you've got this tiny bit of enjoyment at the end once you've shipped the product. Part of my heart sank a little because he is like, somebody I admire and you know, somebody almost like a hero of mine. And I feel the opposite. Like I wake up, you know, and I was like, I cannot wait. Right now the team, we took a two week break from the new show because the team was in Italy, one of the team members is getting married. And it was like closer depression. I was like, I miss not being able to podcast and have these conversations and like, just do the things that I'm doing every day. So it's completely opposite. How I felt is how I thought Rick would have thought. So it was like very surprising. You see, somebody, it is literally the best in the world that he does. He maintains a singular position. And he's telling you, no, it's a fucking struggle for me too. What's driven him to keep going if he dislikes the process that much? He loves the magical act of creation when something is not going well. And they're failing and they're failing and they're failing and they're experimenting and experimenting and then they just do one little tweak and say, oh, now we got it. He's like, he says he's addicted to that that moment of creation of figuring it out. That's what he likes. High level problem solving. Basically the context window that Rick Rubin has is bigger than anybody else's for music. And he's just able to take all of this stuff in. And I think you just nailed it. And this is something very common with anyway it gets the top of the profession. You're gonna notice that they have this the encyclopedic knowledge of history in their head. So he'll talk about, you know, oh, hey, we're struggling with, you know, we're working with Red Hat Chili Peppers. We took an idea that the Beatles did 30 years earlier. There's this great documentary about his recording studio called "Shangelae." I think it's a four-part documentary. And if they're struggling, he's got this like massive library and he'll just go in there. He's like, hey, we don't know what we're gonna do. He'll take one of the musicians he's working with. We'll just pick a random book off a shelf open to a random page and read a paragraph. And then they'll just talk about the paragraph. Did that spawn any kind of thought? And so yeah, he's got this incredible knowledge that it said, chips on shoulders, put chips in pockets. So this is a quote from this venture capital is named Josh Wolf. And I think about this maximum all the time. It reappears throughout entrepreneurship history. It still reappears for people building companies say, this comes from the founder of Apple Evans, Kenyme Adam. Adam is probably the best founder and no one's ever heard of. He's running like a $170 billion market cap company. They're gonna print something like $6 billion in cash this year and he's got 400 employees. And Adam hires, the context of this discussion we're having is that he won't, if you just have this normal, you know, you grew up wealthy, you went to great prep schools, you got into Harvard easily, like he doesn't hire those kind of people. He looks for dysfunctional people that have something to prove. His number two is this guy named Raf. And Raf, his worked for Adam over half of his life. Raf is a high school dropout. So he working for Adam when he was 17 years old, got kicked out of his house, had to live inside of the office. There's pictures they've showed me, where he built bunk beds in the office. He's now the second largest shareholder in Apple Evan. So the kids in his early 30s, the guys in his early 30s and he's got, you know, five or six billion dollars with the Apple Evan stock, for example. And when you hear Adam and people like this talk about, hey, these are the people who want to hire, they have something to prove, they're very hungry, they tend to work a lot harder, they're a lot smarter, they're less scrappier. But then I think what's also interesting is they're also telling you about them. And so one thing that drove Adam to build his company, because like I said, you know, $170 billion mark cap company, when he started the company, he tried to sell, he went around to all the top VCs in the world, try to raise money. He's like, I will give you a quarter of my company. I will give you 25% of my company for a million dollars. And you see valued his own company at $4 million. Every single top VC in the world turned him down. Then they went and funded his competitors. And once they did that, he goes, then it was our company goal to drive those people out of business. And you go from, you know, saying my company's worth four million to 15 years later, I took my company public. It's now, you know, almost 200, I think the top of it went to like 220 billion. And he thinks what they're trying to do is, he thinks it's a path to like a trillion dollar company. And he wants to do that by essentially having this like, island of misfit toys. These people that were looked over by other people, they failed over and over again. They would not be hired by the big firms. It's a weird company full of unusual business practices. You have to be an unusual person to thrive in that kind of environment. And he feels those are the best, the single best employees that you can find. What is it that you think drives somebody to keep going through that situation with that chip on their shoulder? I mean, dude, me and you have hung out a bunch. We've had crazy conversations off very personal conversations. Some of which we should have recorded when we were talking before here. I mean, you have this. Like, you know, you grew up working class. It's like a random part of the world. I think I obviously have this too. I think like both you and I and I think Adam fits into this. And I think Raffo I just talked about. It's like the feeling I had is like, man, I was just like born in the wrong spot. Like this is not, this is not my peer group. This is not gonna be the destiny of my life. Like, this is what I mean. You read so much where we listen to podcasts, why we were like huge into self-education and self-improvement. It's just like, well, this is the station I was born into, but like I can, the world is very malleable. And if I go after something with like maximum effort and drive and intensity, like I can change the world around me. I remember the first time we recorded. I think you were still living in the UK. This is probably like four years ago. And then you just gave me this tour of this crazy insane studio you built out. It's like you did this exact thing yourself. It's like I didn't like my life. So I'm going to use that ship on my shoulder as fuel to prove that I'm not subject to these circumstances. I can actually influence this. There's a Kanye West clip. Have you seen this before? It's him on the Breakfast Club talking about 2013 versus 2023. No, I'd love to see it though. Dude. It's not quite the edit that I wanted because a lot of the B-roll and stuff of all of the shit that he did, but this is fucking spectacular. ♪ The interview from me from 10 years ago ♪ ♪ Everybody says I love that interview ♪ ♪ People didn't love it back then though ♪ ♪ 'Cause I was speaking to the future ♪ ♪ I'm 10 years ahead, mentally ♪ ♪ And I'm trapped in today's time ♪ ♪ And every night on then I crack you a smile for 2013 ♪ ♪ But I'm cracking you a frown for 2023 ♪ ♪ And I'm focused on what it's gonna be ♪ ♪ Just mark my words as I'm Kanye West ♪ ♪ You see my execution ♪ ♪ Did I not become the biggest rock star in the planet ♪ ♪ Did I not influence all musicians ♪ ♪ Did I not go and get the exact girl that I want ♪ ♪ Did I not start my family ♪ ♪ Did I not run for the feathers of two presidents ♪ ♪ Did I not get a chance to work with my idols ♪ ♪ Did I not make Louis Vuitton's ♪ ♪ Did people not line up with the easy store ♪ ♪ Did I not make the college dropout ♪ ♪ Late registration, graduation, 808's ♪ ♪ Luke print one, Luke print three, watch the throng ♪ ♪ Close summer and Yeezus ♪ ♪ If you like it a night ♪ I love that. It's funny to bring that up because you've seen the documentary on Netflix where this guy's poor. He's living in a shitty apartment in Newark, New Jersey at the time and he has a filmmaker follow him around as he's trying to sell his beats in New York City. Have you seen this? It's in terms of like-- - The biggest bet on himself. - The hero's journey. In fact, I transcribed, I think the first two episodes of that documentary, you could skip the third episode, is like the perfect illustration. of this idea that we talked about last time I was on the show, "Belief Comes Before Ability." And you see, he's walking to the train, and he's practicing his Grammy acceptance speech. He's never even wrapped a bar. He does not have a signal, a single out. It was so good that I was transcribing those two episodes, and I was gonna make it into a Founders episode. And then he did that huge, anti-Semitic rant, and I was like, "Oh, I'm just gonna put this show up." We'll show that for a while. Well, wait 'til he comes back around. Yeah, you're right, dude. And this is the topic that's probably the most likely thing that I write my book about will be the Lonely Chapter, and it's moving from a place where you don't belong to one where you feel like you do. And it's, you're so developed that you no longer fit in with your old set of friends, but you're not yet sufficiently developed that you build the new ones. And you're stuck in this messy middle, and you're thinking, well, the Rocky montage is just three and a half minutes in the movies, but it's been four years for me, and what the fuck's going on? You've got all of this doubt, and it's tainted by uncertainty about what the future holds for you, and everybody that's around you doesn't understand what you're doing, or doubts what you're doing, or actively stops you from doing the thing that you're doing. And it's a selection criteria. Very few people are born into an environment that is supportive for rapid-changing growth because people don't like that. It feels like chaos, it feels like uncertainty. And if you make a lot of changes, it throws into quite harsh contrast, all of the ways that I'm not changing. If you grow a lot, that means that my lack of growth is potentially on me. It's the same reason that in the Black pill, in the In-Sale community, ascending as in being liked by women is one of the. You become outcast if that happens because you're not a true sell, you're a fake sell. One of the reasons for that is if you can get laid, or if you can get a phone number from a girl, maybe I can too, and hope with disappointment is way more painful than apathy with acceptance. And yeah, chips on shelves is put chips in pockets. - You like, it's funny. You never know where you're gonna resonate with. And I think that out of all the thing about how many short-form videos we've probably consumed in our lives, like, I don't know, tens of thousands. And there's like this one minute, maybe the 32nd clip of "Shia La Buf." I don't even, I don't even know if pronouncing his name, the actor, Shia, whatever his name is. And he said something where it's just like, when me and George were talking right before we started recording, you'll feel this like when you read, you know, somebody else was like, story of a book, you're like, "Oh, I feel like I'm reading about myself." Like, this is exactly how I feel. And he was talking about, he's another person that chips on shoulders, puts chips in pockets. He was talking about, he's like, "Hey, I don't care what you think." He was like, he was like, because I grew up in an environment where there's like no support. So what the defense mechanism and the tool that he used was he's like, I had to convince myself that my opinion about what I was doing in my life was the most important opinion. And he literally, and he would cut everybody outside of his life that gave him counter evidence that, "Hey, you're not gonna make it as an actor. Go back and watch the documentary on Kanye." There's just like, there was nobody around him that he was, he was not gonna keep you in your life. If he said, "Hey, just be a producer." There's, that was a great Kanye clip that you played. One that I watch all the time, it's a minute long, it's called Kanye West spasming out. This is before he put us for a seldom. And he's cl- he clips our seas like hitting his hands. He goes, "Don't compare me to any other producer rapper 'cause at the time, there was other people that started in production and just started rap. And he went over and over again, he goes, "Hey, he was your understand. At one point, my beats were whack, dog." He goes, "I taught myself how to make hot beats." These are his words now. He goes, "And it's the same thing with rapping." He goes, "I don't know how to rap. I'm gonna teach myself how to do it." That growth mindset, and he goes, and the clip ends in the gray scene goes, "And I have a leg up because I hear my beats first." The mind is a powerful place and what you feed it can affect you in a powerful way. Okay, so that is a line from another rapper, this guy named NF, who's one of my favorite rappers. And that reappears throughout, not only the books I read, like all these books on history, it's got such winners that I've read for my other podcast, but when I started sitting down and talking to, you know, some of the best entrepreneurs in the world, like I do for the new show, this came from Toby Luke K, founder of Shopify. And it was the most surprising conversation I may have ever had in my entire life, okay? 'Cause you go and, like, if you never met somebody before, you're gonna, there's gonna be some kind of, like, typecast, right? It's like, you got this German engineer who built a $200 billion company and this one of the most successful technology platforms that ever been created. And he started as a, by himself, with a single laptop in his wife's childhood bedroom, 'cause he had no money. And they literally had to be supported by his wife's family at the time. And so you think this guy's German engineer, he's gonna be super analytical. And then you talk to him and he's all about intuition and vibes for lack of a better word. And his whole thing was just like, well, the way you view yourself is very important and you should know that you can change the way you view yourself. And what you tell yourself, the intermonial that you have is very important. And so for a long time, he told himself that, I'm afraid of public speaking. I'm afraid of it, I'm bad at it, that's just who I am. And what he would do, again, this sounds like Willie Fufu nonsense, but it actually works. He's like, every day for 10 minutes, for I think a week or two or a long a took, he would sit there and write 100 times. I love public speaking. I love public, there's nothing else to that. Just the same positive affirmation and he was brain, literally brainwashing himself. To now, he's phenomenal in podcasts. He can give a presentation in front of his thousands of employees. He can go on stage. He loves public speaking. He literally changed his brain. And so I think this is really important on not only like the people he keep around you. We just touched on it. It's like, dude, I don't have any money in my life. That's like pessimistic or negative. Like these kind of people, like they're cut out, and they're rooting stem. My information diet is like, I read old books and I talk to smart, interesting people. The way that I choose who I talk to is like, the conversation we had. How do I feel after I just had an hour, or two hour conversation, Chris? Fucking alive, excited. Like, you had George's idea about sofa friends and treadmill friends. You should, yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, yeah, just that after some people, you feel like you need to go and lie down on the sofa and start a sailing for a while. And after spending time with other people, you feel like you want to go and run on a treadmill. The post-content clarity, or post-nut clarity, the equivalent of, after you watch a piece of content on the internet from a creator that keeps on popping up in your feed, or that maybe you'd subscribe to for a while, or not so long of a while, how do you feel after that? Do you want to go outside and ring your mum? Do you feel like you can achieve more? Do you feel like the world is against you or for you? Do you bid or are looking for enemies, or are you positive some and thinking about abundance? And again, I think people are just way too cavalier on what they put in their minds. So I'm just gonna sit down and X, and the algorithm's gonna push whatever it wants into my brain, and I'm gonna sit there and receive it. That's crazy to me. It's like you're influenced by everything. You should be very good with the mind as a powerful place, which you feed it, in fact, you're in a powerful way. You just like, you don't put shit in your body if you care about your health and the way you look. Why wouldn't you do the same thing for your mind? Yeah, someone wants to describe modern wisdom as spirulina for your soul in a sea of fast food for your amygdala. And I was like, yeah, that's quite nice. But okay, so this time, I think a large team of the discussion that we can have today and a lot of discussions behind the past, is like, man, you get one life. You get one life. You have to do something. I do think work for most humans is like a source of meaning, at least for you and I. It's like, I feel really freaking good about the podcast I make and the information I put out there and like what I'm putting out there. And to play on this other end, where it's just like you're just like junk food for the mind. It's like, this is your one shot of life, and this is what you did. You have to feel good when you hear stuff like that. I really think if people could, if people could go to the end just for a moment, if they could speedrun two alternate universes forward, one where they did the equivalent of selling their soul and getting all of the success, but not resonating with what it was that they did. Or speedrunning it in a way that meant that the success came, but it came without effort and without personal sacrifice and without like investment of yourself. And the other one where you had 50% or 10% of the success, but it was spoken truly from you. Like I've been around enough people who have done something that resonates and that they love, who are way less successful than others that have got bigger platforms, but the people that have got bigger platforms are way more miserable, way more miserable because they don't feel it. Like you don't want to be, you don't want to achieve success, you want the feeling that being successful gives you. And you can get the first without getting the second, if you're not careful. You can achieve success and not feel it, especially if you do something that you don't really care about. I would say though, like the benefit to tie this together is like the benefit of reading old books is like I just finished rereading this biography of Joseph Pulitzer from the Pulitzer Prize. And he built one of the most successful media businesses and he was doing around this time in the Civil War. That's how he got to America. He was a very poor, he was a Hungarian immigrant. By the time he's 17 years old, his father and seven out of his eight siblings have died and from like disease. And so he has to come fight in the Civil War because he has no money and there was a bunch of wealthy American businessmen that were trying to seed the Union Army and they figured, hey, we'll get a bunch of European men, say we'll pay for your passage over here. And if you survive, you'll get X amount of money, you can start a new life in America. That's how Pulitzer got to start. Now he built his media at the time was he had two of the most successful newspapers in the world, including the most successful newspaper in the world. Now the negative part of his and where he kind of laundered his reputation by seeding the Pulitzer Prize and the Pulitzer School of Journalism is that he also is credited with the invention of yellow journalism. All yellow journalism is now is like exactly what we see when we open up Instagram or X. It's just sensationalism, violence, sex, things that just speak that for hundreds of years, thousands of years have peaked human interests. So not that it's good for you, it's just that you're interested in it, compelling. So if you read this book, 'cause I always get shipped, 'cause people are always like, hey, like you don't, I don't know anything about current affairs. Like I don't pay attention to news, I don't read newspapers, I don't look at any of that stuff. And so I get a lot of stuff about this. And my thing is like if you just read Joseph Polis' biography and will he run a purse who copied his career off-poliser like I did and You'll see the connection. He's like why am I doing this? Like do that first and then say you should you know red line this negative information about something's happening three thousand miles away or Five thousand miles away over and over again through brain. 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Oh, that's funny When he arrived in Miami with nothing. That's incredible Yeah, that's incredible. There's a I guess like it goes back to chips on shoulders, pitch chips and pockets It's like I think one of the I have like this weird interest right like you know this I basically for interest It's history podcasts reading and entrepreneurship and the entrepreneurship thing is really really important to me because like you said Like my grandfather was a poor uneducated person in Cuba. He was 38 years old. He had a newborn son, which is my father He had two jobs. He was a butcher and he worked in shoe factory and cash retakes over and Somehow a man who had no education did not speak English and had new resources realized what was happening in real I have to get me and my family out of this country right away and he comes to America. He's an immigrant to America And rebuilds his life now He made a bunch of bad decisions once he got here too that I've learned from and avoided like I didn't ever go to prison Like he went to prison But that one decision I'm always fascinated by this because like that one decision of a man that I don't remember meeting because he died When I was really really young so I have no memory of him. It's like literally a change of director of my life And one of the most important things about growing up in South Florida as the son of a Cuban immigrant is that would constantly Nine seven ten years old meet people that came over here on rafts I say this is such a weird thing. It's like that's a one-way trip Where are the Americans going to the end of Miami Beach and putting their kid on a raft and hoping to get a Cuba? So I kind of inherently understood that was born just a very special environment. No control of them. I didn't make that decision His decision changed the director of my life and I do think One thing I'm trying to do with the new show is like hey, I I'm very pro-capitalistic I'm not I'm against crony capitalism I like people that build products and make other people's lives better and then spread those products and services to more people and as a result They can generate wealth for themselves for their employees for for shareholders of public companies like John Mackie found her full foods I've spent a bunch of time with him. We become friends. He was one of my first guests on my new show and his little thing He grew up enough. He was a hitchhiking hippie dropping acid in Austin where we are today Right, and he's just like hey, I think that safe ways poisoning us I'm gonna make a whole foods grocery store, right and then do that for decades Fest for two decades of him just having an idea I just want to place for people to shop to get healthy food and as a result of the appreciation of a stock He was telling stories on the podcast. He's like these are normal people. They were stocking shelves They were checking you out. They were bagging your groceries and they got stock options and because whole foods was successful And they played a role in that they were able to send their kid to college They never thought they'd be able to pay for college. They would have buy a house. Those things should be celebrated We should be giving a platform for people to tell these freaking stories Find a simple idea and take it seriously. Oh god. So You even I think I've made fun. I mean that fact I won't stop talking with this guy named Todd Graves chicken guy Okay, I have some I have some hilarious stories. I don't even know if some of these I can't tell on the podcast Because now me and Todd have become friends. So Todd Graves I think the episode I did on him was like Todd Graves and his $20 billion chicken finger dream So this is gonna take a while, but this is worth it. So Todd Graves has this idea His initial initial idea is I'm gonna remake what in and out did for cheeseburgers I'm gonna do for chicken finger meals, right? He's like I'm gonna have a super simple menu like very you go to Raising canes you have basically an option. Do you want three chicken fingers four chicken fingers or six chicken fingers? People always you make a chicken finger sandwich. Okay, that's fine. I'll take two pieces of bread and tip my chicken fingers on it There's your chicken finger sandwich. It's the that he's been running this is for 30 years the menu has not changed in 30 years He's like oh In and out successful in California. Why can't I be successful in he started Louisiana bad and Rouge in LSU was his first What was his first restaurant just selling one item? But doing it better than anybody else just like in and out tries to be the best hamburger, you know, they bail when Harry Snyder found in the company and That idea of find a simple idea and take it seriously is as a maximum from Charlie Munger Who's a hero of mine who I talked about the last time I was on your show and what you'll what Charlie Spent six decades seven decades studying is he wanted to study extreme business success and what he realizes like Oh what we find in business and I would say in life because mean you were doing this with Podcasting is the winning system all oftentimes goes ridiculously far Minimizing or maximizing one or a few variables All the people that we talked about all the people out of my show all the success entrepreneurs that you That you'll talk to our study. It's like you realize They have very simple businesses even if what they're doing is super complex like what's more complex about shooting a rocket and landing it But if you read about Elon He's like all he talks about is simplifying taking the idea very seriously deleting reducing complexity so Todd Graves his whole thing was like well I'm gonna sell his original idea was I'm gonna sell Chicken fingers better anybody else And I'm gonna do it to drunk college kids. That's what he thought was the total dressable market that he had and then he realized So he he thought I'm gonna be able to sell to you when you're out drinking But he was also open during the day he starts getting busy during the day and because he just focused on doing one thing Doing better anybody else is if you wanted the best chicken fingers. You're just gonna go to him and so Even when he breaks down like he's got like three or four moving parts on the on the menu It's like chicken fingers. It's a coloslaw. It's a Texas toast. It's the fries There's nothing else and then he doesn't separate himself from the customer So like you could draw he's got 900 when I talked to him a few months ago on my show He had 915 stores all owned no franchises by the way He was growing faster in year 30 than he'd ever in his history. So he's adding like another hundred L Just say 52 no no he's 53 now because he started the company was 23 years old and You you can drive into a raising gains and place in order and everyone and Todd Graves is the one giving you the order He his his business card says Fry cook cashier CEO So sometimes he's handing you the order out of the drive through sometimes he's in the world like literally dumping the chicken into the oil I'm doing it because there's no separation between him and his customer and his idea was just like well It's it's served in boxes right and he goes as long as that box that I give the customer is the best box They ever get they'll just keep coming back and back and back and because he'll never sell the company the reason I say it's a $20 billion chicken figure dream is because he owns over 90% of the company It's valued at least 20 billion dollars. He's rejected multiple multiple billions of dollars in acquisition offers He says I can't sell it because he believes this is gonna sound crazy But he truly believes that that God put him on the surface to be good at chicken fingers and he's building this business So he can build a lot of wealth and then help people and so he does a ton of charity work supports a lot of people And that's what he does with his money one of my favorite stories about billion dollar ideas Joe Hudson his daughter Came bouncing down the stairs after he'd been talking about businesses for a while over the last week He was a VC for a good while raised I think maybe a hundred million dollars over his career and Started came bouncing down the stairs and she said I finally got it. I've got my billion dollar idea He says oh my god. It's a it's a An idea that you think is worth a billion dollars. She says no no that that's what I Didn't think that's what it was no I've got an idea that I wouldn't sell for a billion dollars Isn't that cool? Yeah, it's such a better way to frame a billion dollar idea What is something that you would do that you could build that you wouldn't sell if somebody offered you a billion dollars? I get a lot of shit for this in because obviously a lot of entrepreneurs listen to both my shows and Listen, it's none of my business what you do I'm not concerned with other what other people do for their lives. I don't give advice I just like build the life that I want to build but I'm not interested in like start scale sell and in some cases like I've had good friends of mine So they know it's a joke they'll call me like hey, I sold my company like I'll start here that because it's like what the whole point in my opinion It's like you want to get to your last company you want to get to the idea that you want to do what I say when I was on Sure last time that if you love what you do the exercise should be desks Like I just got done saying I get sad when I don't podcast It sounds fucking ridiculous tell a lot of people but like I took two weeks off of not having these conversations My life is deficient some people do grow some people have phases and periods. I love running nightclubs for a while I'm not gonna live running nightclubs forever and that was time there was a time and a place for that to happen go through periods. Now some people managed to land on the thing which is an infinite game for them and also fits their personality across time as they age and mature and change. But I would say, and that's the key, all the experiences that you had. You couldn't, I think you used the word speed run all the time. You couldn't speed run it. You have to go, I was 32 years old before I found my path. It was another five and a half years before it was able to pay my bills. Like some people, Kobe Bryant found it at 13. Could you imagine how crazy that it is, like finding your life's work that early? I read this, the bunch of biographies on the founder of Cadillac, Ken Mulilin. He founded Cadillac when he was 60. He founded Lincoln Motors when he was 70. Took him 60 years to find his path. That's the point. There's not like a time you have to do it by, but all these experiences in my opinion, should be getting you to the thing where it's just like, it's not about a dollar amount, it's not about an acquisition, it's not about a sale. It's like, you literally, I love this so much, you couldn't pay me to stop. The loudest booze come from the cheapest seats. Making mistakes is the privilege of the active. So I had this incredible conversation with Dana White. And I've been a massive fan of UFC for a decade. But even a, maybe even a bigger fan of Dana, to the point where like, I'll watch the press conferences, his press conferences that he does. And he's like 20, 30 minutes long after fights of the fights I didn't even get to see. He's just a phenomenal communicator. And one of the things I most admire about him and his life stories, one, I think it's very important. Like the way he is on camera when you're watching press conferences or on a podcast, he is exactly. There is no difference between the person you're seeing and the person and interacting with him in private, which is really, I think really admirable and fascinating, personally fascinating to me. But what you realize about him is when he's like, you know, he built the largest combat organization in the world. And he's got tens of millions, maybe a hundred million followers throughout all different platforms. And he just gets so much shit about the way he's running his business. And so you sit down with him and the lattice booze come from the cheapest seats. That's from this guy named Ross who you had on your podcast. I love that episode. Excellent. By the way, I love Russ too. I actually just talked about him a bunch on this episode. I just did with Steve Stowell. Steve Stowell's done a bunch of phenomenal interviews with Russ as well. But what you realize about like Dana and really anybody's like if you're going to do something in the world, it's like Dana could put on a fight like the fight he just did at the White House. That card was incredible, right? Five fights. I think it's the only time in UFC history was five knockouts. There's still people complaining. It's still you should have done xyz. You shouldn't have done this. You should have done that. It's like and his whole thing is he just like cuts all that stuff out. And the second part of that quote where it's like making mistakes is a privilege of the active. He on the episode and in other interviews, he'll talk over and over again. It's like, oh yeah, like I fucked that up or I made this mistake. It's like if you're going to do anything, it's reframing the mistake is not always something to avoid. It's like, yeah, that means I'm trying. But it's very high trust. It's one of the best things that you can do as an employee. If you mess up, own it as quickly as possible. Yeah, I fucked it. It's when someone starts to hedge and control. Even when Dana got pinned for that situation with him and his wife in the nightclub, immediately he just took it on the chin. And I think that you can tell a lot about somebody by what happens when they're backed into a corner socially like that. You just don't do it. Yeah. So after we recorded, so he's got this insane setup in his office. I should talk about. So he's got his office, right? Which is, it has like all these crazy art and like little pieces from his career. Remember Ville and in Membrvilleia and these crazy quotes on his walls which I get to in one second. Then the other side, he's got this insane like professional like professional sports team level Jim that only he and his friends work out in. And then the other side of the record, he's got a bar because he loves smoke and cigars, chicken whiskey. And then he has entrepreneurs coming every day. I think he took like, forgot with the number like over 100 meetings, maybe 200 meetings last year of entrepreneurs coming in and he loves entrepreneurship more than he loves fighting. And he just like gives him advice. Sometimes he does investments. He just like wants to bullshit and like hang out with people building companies. He's just like obsessed with that. But so we spent a much time afterwards. And he's showing me throughout his office and he goes, you might have heard of this little dust up I had with my wife. I'm like, yeah, I'm familiar. And so he goes, after that happened, I put that on the wall. And right when you're walking out of his office, it says, uh, may God have mercy on my enemies because we won't or I won't. There's a clip that I've just sent to Jared. It's my favorite Danny clip. Okay. So there's a reason on the you we were talking about that episode of David Dana before this. And I kept bringing up Todd Grace because like when I say across from somebody, I have this thing where it's like natural pattern matching. So like Dana's talking. I'm like, oh, that's kind of like rock, like Rockefeller did or Henry Ford did or like and I kept getting Todd Grace vibes because Todd Grace said the exact same thing where he's just like, I need people to tell me that I'm going to fail. And he's like, I just use his fuel and energy that I love people telling me they can't I can't do like what I want to do. And Dana is the same way Dana has another great quote that I was watching when I was prepping for the episode where he's just like, he goes, I'm the world's best friend. And if you want to be friends, we can do that. But if only be enemies, I can do that too. Wow. Fuck that's good. Yeah. He's really, really good. I could talk to I mean, I told him I was like listen, I'm just going to drive you. If you're cool with you, I'm going to drop in with this film crew every like six months because I could talk to him an hour over and over again. The guy never runs out of stories. The funniest thing that's ever been said on my podcast came from Dana White. It really pisses him off because if you think about how much struggle went into to building the UFC into what it is today, it's like they bought out almost bankruptcy for $2 million. They dumped another $40 million into it. This goes back to where we just are. I'm like, like, you love it so much that they couldn't pay you to stop. They lost money for like seven years. He wasn't making any money. And he tells this great story of his partner, one of the potato brothers is the first year they get into the black means they're making profit. They're writing out like all the revenue on the board. And Dana's like, what does that say? And he goes says you're going to make a million dollars a year. He's like, wow, that's incredible. Dana's a multi-billionaire now, like multi-billionaire now. But he was just happy just to make a million dollars after seven years of failing. He's like, if I just do that, I could do this forever. Before we continue, most people in the 30s are still training hard. The protein is dialed in. They sleep better than they did in their 20s. Discipline is not the issue, but recovery feels somewhat different. Strength gains take a little longer. The margin for error starts to shrink. And that is why I'm such a huge fan of timeline. You see mitochondria are the energy producers inside of your muscle cells as they weaken with age your ability to generate power and recover effectively changes even if your habits stay strong. Mytapure from timeline contains the only clinically validated form of urythaline used in human trials. It promotes mitophagy, which is your body's natural process for clearing out damaged mitochondria and renewing healthy ones. In studies, this supported mitochondrial function and muscle strength in older adults. So not about pushing harder, but actually supporting the cellular machinery underneath your training. If you care about staying strong into your 30s, 40s and 50s and beyond, this is foundational. Best of all, there is a 30-day money back guarantee plus free shipping in the US and they ship internationally. And right now, you can get up to 20% off by going to the link in the description below or heading to timeline.com/modern wisdom and using the code modern wisdom. Check out that's timeline.com/modern wisdom. And modern wisdom. Check out. Successful people listen. Those that don't listen don't last long. Okay, so this is shocking because if people know that's a quote from Michael Jordan. So if you're seeing the last dance, people think, "Oh, Michael's just like tyrant. He's this dictator. He thinks he knows better than anybody else." And there's this great book called Michael Jordan The Life. It's like 700 pages long. It's by this guy named Roland Lazzabee. And I read that book twice. It fundamentally changed my life. And in that, I found that quote in that book. And when you realize, like, no, no, Michael's a sponge. And all he wants is useful information that's going to help him accomplish his goals. And so a lot of this, this applies to business. It was like, I went to Ed Cable's house to record a podcast. Ed Cable's the founder of Pixar, right? Pixar's made, they invented the first computer animated film. They make some of the best films for families and for kids and for even adults that watch it. And he worked with Steve Jobs longer than anybody else. He worked with Steve for 24 consecutive years. And he speaks a lot about it. He's like the way he's just Steve is described, Steve Jobs described in the media compared to the person I knew. It's not the same person. So he always tells these stories and adds this color. And he goes, Hey, Pixar was a public company for 10 years before Disney acquired it for like $7.6 billion. In that 10 year period, this is Ed telling me a story now. Steve fired two members of the board of directors from Pixar. Well, most people don't know why he fired them. And so I asked Steve why he fired him. He goes, well, they, those two people, they never disagree with me. And so therefore, if they never disagree with me, they're not adding any value to the company. It's like successful people listen to those that don't listen, don't last long. What Steve understood when Michael Jordan understands what all these people get to the top of the professional stand. It's like, there's no upside in being wrong. And so it doesn't matter if you give me, you're the reason I started doing video podcasts. You remember having this conversation years ago? You're like, you, we don't have to like get retarded. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So it's like, I could have been like, Oh, like what is Chris now? Well, he's got the eighth biggest podcast in the world. Maybe he knows some shit. Maybe I should benefit from the fact that I get access to him and we're friends that he can give me advice because he's not doing it to like criticize me. Like, hey, you could be doing better here. Yeah. You're held accountable. It's like you can, you should be doing this. You can do doing better job here. I think people get confused a lot of the time when it comes to taking feedback, taking criticism. And they assume that, you know, committing yourself to one thing being on this path, disregarding the chip on the shoulder, they incorrectly pan match, or that they ignore advice. and think that it's self-belief, and that's pretty dangerous because you're just stuck in local maxima there. Like you're never going to reach outside of that. And yeah, I think an awful lot about looking for humans who are able to update their world view, like strong opinions loosely held, as opposed to loose opinions strongly held, which is what most people have. They haven't really arrived there with conviction and vigor. They've just kind of tumbled backward. They've sliding, not deciding into whatever that world view is. There's actually an interesting story in one of these books I read where Charlie Munger, when he was trying to convince you of something, he would first state the best counter argument. And with that tell Jews after, you know, he's very verbose and he would talk for like 30, 40 minutes, for example, you talk. I had dinner with him and I'd say he spoke 99% of the time, which is good. He has all the information with the hell am I going to say. But what I thought was interesting is like, what does that imply? Means he thought about this so much that he could start with the best counter argument. And then essentially rebut that counter argument, say why he believes something different. And I think that's like an excessively valuable score. I've never even heard of anybody else doing that. Why is people don't solve problems? They avoid them. No, wisdom is prevention. That is so that's a Munger quote, wisdom is prevention. And he had a, this is the experience of when I went and had dinner with him. And this, when you realize like, you know, if you live long enough, I think he has another quote, he's like, if you live long enough, bad shit's going to happen to you. It's like inevitable. And you read his early life. And it's like he had the worst possible thing that could happen. He was going through divorce. His nine year old son had leukemia before it was curable. And so he was just nine year old son's like literally wasting away. And he is like, watch his son die slowly. And he would leave the hospital and like walk around the street to pass the door. And he just balled crying his eyes out. He's like probably 35 maybe 38 years old when this is happening. And yet you spend time when you realize like he is just like nothing can face him. He's like, problems are inevitable. And his whole thing was like, well, it's, you're not smart because you saw problems. You're smart or you're wise because you avoid them. And so the advice that he gave us was like, if you just focus on being around really, really great people, like a handful of really great friends, you know, you don't need many. There's probably a limit time. You could have maybe four or five really like people are going to do life with three entire life. You know they love you. They're high quality people. They're not shitty people. He has this other side of this is another Charlie Marker Crow. He says most, he's like a most people are rap poison. He's like, there's a lot of just evil and low quality people out there. You should avoid them. So you build relationships with great people. People you love and you can do life with. And then you find great work. And once you find the great work, you stay in that work, great work. You don't jump around like you do that for the rest of your life. And by surrounded yourself with great people and having work that you feel is great and beneficial to the world, that avoids that eliminates most of the problems that are under your control. And then life will still throw problems that are outside your control. Your kid gets sick. You get cancer. Whatever the case is. But the the smarter thing is to is not to solve the problems. Smart thing is to prevent them from occurring ever. Yeah. There's an insight that it's far easier to date somebody who compensates for your shortcomings than it is to fix them. But you are the sort of person that likes to go to bed early and you've decided to get into a relationship with someone that wants to go out partying until three in the morning. Maybe your 9pm bedtime is a personal failing because you feel like you need to have more control over your life than you actually do. Maybe you would be beneficial for you to work through that in some way and loosen up and you could go to about 11 o'clock and don't 12 o'clock or something like that. Or you could just get into a relationship with somebody who is for your shortcomings. And is that actually you know what it is? I'm not going to make you feel insecure about that thing. I want to go to bed at 9 o'clock to. So many of the situations that we end up having to we have basically a frustration budget in life every single day and it gets sapt out of you by all of the different interactions. That's a you're going to dinner and your friend that you're hanging out with is just like really annoying and every single time you go for dinner you super annoyed by them. And then the next morning you wake up when you've been with some real things at work that you can't get away from or that's part of a mission. Like I have less in the tank to be able to deal with this issue because of the situation I went through last night or because of the fact I had to stay up till three in the morning because the girl wanted to go some fucking DJ and some night club or whatever and now I'm tired and I didn't even want to go but I did it because you know I'm going to compromise. It's really important to compromise. With some is prevention like just avoiding problems altogether where you can like problems are inevitable and they're going to come and smash you in the face. Choosing that there's no nobility in meaningless suffering there's no ability in meaningful suffering but there is no nobility in meaningless suffering. And I would say like there's a great quote in Spanish that a Donald translate it's like this person will drown in a couple water and this is what I mean like the first part of that is before you you find your life's work and and like hopefully you're doing something that makes a lives of other people's other people's lives better. It's like you have to ruthlessly edit who gets access to you like the first episode I ever did of the new show was Daniel founder Spotify right and if every way I was asked me like oh if you had a if you could have like a personal board of directors from all the people you've read about all the dead entrepreneurs who would you be and I have an answer for that and then like what about for living like who would your personal board directors be I was like I only need one and it's like Daniel the advice the reason he was the first guest is because the relationship we were able to build and the friendship we were able to build is like he's like the wisest one of the wisest people I know I call him Swedish Buddha he's like he put one of the greatest apps and technology companies in the history of the world right and did an unbelievable how to under unbelievable struggle to do so but he's just very wise and he he almost all of our conversations was just with him a few months ago we were racing cars outside of Stockholm and we stayed up late one night and he's the whole thing was just like I still have notes from the conversation here just like it's like man you just have to ruthlessly edit who's around you it's like you're just like we said like the mind is powerful place with you feed affection power away he's like especially you you have a huge platform I can't imagine what your freaking text messages are inbox look like you could you coming on your show could literally change the people's lives and so the problem is they're going to give they're going to act in a way to you that's not their real self and so Daniel's point about this was just like you know if you if you feel you're developing a friendship somebody have other people to trust then go and spend time with this person because the way they act with you might be different from them but I'm telling you all these people and I've built a lot of friendships with a lot of guests have had on my show the amount of times they have told me just like everything comes down to the quality of people that you have around you your life is your relationships that's another great maximum your life is your relationships if you have a bunch of shitty people around you like you're going to have a shitty life going to cause drama unneedlessly because they they will drown in a cup of water and it wisdom is wisdom is a void and you have to prove you you have a couple of these people out of my life and you know way less than I have to now because I've been so like I have a very small circle I would say I just talk my natural tendency is not to have a thousand shallow relationships it's just talk to the same half a dozen people over and over and over again and when I do not I can be by myself I'm very comfortable reading a book making a solo podcast like I don't give a shit I don't need to go out and like constantly socialize and expose myself to like the vagaries of others people like like corrosive and destructive behavior I'm not interested in that create according to your own taste not for applause critics algorithms or market demand this is Rick Rubin like you and I we just talked about this we just both read his book creative act and towards the end of that book he has this thing called like the house on the mountain test and here's the great thing about reading books about people and then getting to talk to them like you get you get to go deeper and I want to tell you a story about James Dyson we can get there a little bit I think it's really important about this but what Rick Rubin's point was just like your north star and whatever you're doing the metaphor he uses is it goes let's see you bought a house it's on a mountain it's so so remote no one is ever going to see it for you he goes do not put in your best effort to decorate it and to design it just like you would want it done like you're the only person that you see it no one's ever going to visit what do you do and the answer to that question that is you reveal preference that is what you actually want to do and so when you look at Rick Rubin's career is what does he do he just makes the music that he wants to listen to he is not he says over and over again don't think about the audience don't think about the customer don't think about the end user like you're probably not unique me and talk about this you're not that unique so if Rick Rubin likes this song by Johnny Cash with a guitar and just you know and just this guy's voice what's the chance he's the only person in the world that likes that probably 10 million people that like the same kind of music Rick Rubin likes just like me knew we talked about this before so recording we make the podcast that we want to listen to we both are obsessed with podcast they've made our lives benefit benefit they benefit our lives immensely I've learned more from reading and podcast and I ever did in school like I'm just making the stuff that I want to listen to I listen to them before they come out could you imagine like your life is making a podcast and you have to listen to it before it goes out and you don't like it doesn't make any sense so I think that that the idea of like the metaphor of your designing a house on mountain no one else is going to see it you should design your life that way too there's parts of your life that you share with other people but there's huge swaths of it that only you know you should design those those parts of your life same exact way as the parts of other people see a rule of thumb for anybody that makes things on the internet would you consume your own content if not don't post it I was with you one time and you asked somebody and there was a 30 second pause yeah yeah and after 30 seconds. - You know the answer. - Wow, interesting. I like to do it. If it takes more than five seconds, the answer's fucking no. - Yeah. - Rage your own life, create a grand theft life. - Okay, so you told me before, I missed this episode of yours, but you just did this round table. What do you call these round table episodes? - Robert Hall. - Robert Hall with Tim Urban. - Yep. - Tim Urban, like, I don't know, 10 years ago, with this crazy essay on Elon and SpaceX and Tesla. You kind of predicted a lot of this shit that's just occurred in the last decade. And he had this thing called grand theft life. And what he realized about Elon was like, his ability to step outside of himself. So me and you were going through life all the time and we're kind of like, right now I'm looking at you. My view is a lot better than yours is, right? Like, you're a lot more handsome than I am. But like, this is my experience. And you're kind of get like siloed into like, this is, I'm just experiencing it as it happens, right? And this started because Toby Luke, I'll go back to Elon, one second. I sat down with Toby Luke, I found her Shopify, which again, is probably my favorite conversation that I've had on the podcast so far. And he has this idea, when he says this, he's running a $200 billion dollar company. And he goes, I like to take the view that I'm a corporate rater. I did not start Shopify. I do not run Shopify. I have now extracted it from the owners. And now I'm the new owner. And the previous management was crazy. And then I go through and look at to every single other thing that I would change. Why do you need to step aside? Because like, if you're just going through your day to day, there's so many problems he's not seeing. You have to step back in Tim Urban's Grand Thefts life essay that he was writing on Elon. It's like, you see that Elon does that. Me and you were talking about this before, where it's like, okay, if you look at yourself as if you're playing Grand Theft Auto, like your character, you play Grand Theft Auto. My character needs money. So my character goes to does jobs. Now he has more money. My character is stamina. He's running from the cops. He needs better cardio. So I take him to the gym. You just literally say, like from the outside, me and you, I hope you don't cut this from the podcast, we were in Hawaii together. We had many, many late night conversations about issues with women that, me and you were both having, that I swear to God, if there was a casual observer, right? Just listening, they were just like, Chris, David, this is these are simple solutions. You just can't see them. Cause we're in a built, like I could see what was wrong with yours and you could see what was wrong with mine. So this idea of just stepping outside. And I love the idea that, again, putting into entrepreneurial terms, like some guy is now taking over my business or taking over my life. What would he change? Yes. You need a pause and you need to wait, step back and go through this right now. George has got this idea where he talks about, imagine that there was an evil version of you and man with a mustache. What would he do to beat you? What would another version of you with the mustache do to beat you? Or that question of if you had 10 times the agency, what would you do? What would that situation? You know where your shortcomings, where your biggest shortcomings lie. There's going to be this person. Okay, they would be way more decisive. They wouldn't, they would need less certainty in order to reach conviction. Because I know that I spend too much time vacillating and flip-flopping back and forth and I don't commit so quickly. And I know that the version of me with the mustache, he would arrive at the outcome way quicker because he wouldn't be doing the flip-flopping. Or he would be more cutthroat when it comes to not giving people third and fourth and sixth and seventh chances because I keep doing that and he keeps on burning me. That's what he would do and he'd just go, okay. Just do that. What would your answer to that for your own life be right now? The decisiveness thing I think is probably not far off. My required level of certainty in order to make big decisions is quite a high bar and that's led to me making very few mistakes. Like I haven't made every business that I've started has succeeded. Almost all of the projects that I get involved in and very good, but it also, if you're not failing, it's probably an indication that you're not moving quickly enough because you could move a little, the headroom for moving more quickly is probably still quite high and you would still end up with a pretty good hit rate. So it was something like that. How about you? - I think especially the last year, the biggest mistake you get distracted, especially because like, there was like a slow build to founders podcast. It never, like, it's like, I was like a frog and boiling water because it took five and a half years to break through another like, it was like eight before it was like any substantial thing. - It was three and a half full for us. - Yeah, so like, that was great. It was actually like in hindsight, I wouldn't change anything because it was like, oh, I'm still the same person. I don't feel any different. Yeah, where the new one, because I had existing audience and it kind of like, so it was like disorienting how fast my life changed. And then this is a goes back to Daniel Ack and why he'd be like my, you know, my sole person on living board of directors is he's just like, just stay with him in the circus. Does the advice that he would give me over and over again? - So the evil version of you that's trying to beat you with a moustache would just get less distracted. He'd be more simple. - And this is what I've gone back to doing where Daniel's advice is just like, we just had this phenomenal dinner in New York and then he was driving me to a friend's house. And he's just like, your life is very simple man. And he's just like, if you just sit in a room and make podcasts and don't do anything else, obviously, it's in time with your friends, take care of your health. But like, you don't have to go to fucking dinners. You don't have to go to conferences. He had this conference called just sit in a room and make podcasts, say is the guy that owns Spotify. You think that might have been somewhat of a. - No, because he's, he just stepped down. I promise you, it's not like his best. - That's not a good answer. - No, no, no. 'Cause like, my shows are always going to be somewhat niche. Like your show will always be 10 times bigger than anything I do because I'm just nearly focused on entrepreneurship. But the advice is, 'cause I remember texting, I was like, hey, are you going to brilliant minds? It was his conference. And I don't think he was there this year. He goes, no, neither should you. And that's when he just, hey, he goes, just stay with him in circus. - But this is similar to if you do everything you will win. - No, that's, okay, so we can get to that in one second. So let me finish this 'cause I think, I like to address the question. It's like really helpful for me to now kind of do grand theft life and now step back and say what I would do. So it's like, I have work that I really like to do. I really like to read books. I really like to make podcasts. You know, I like one, on one conversations, maybe one on two, I can't do like group stuff. I'm very introverted. It makes me very uncomfortable. I think like, and then I've got to figure out like the dating part, the girl part. But other than that, like, I think the distraction is, you talk about something to do with this last time, that so many of history's greatest entrepreneurs have been totally shit with women. Like they're just pussy hounds or they're unable to hold a relationship together. But I don't know whether, to give them their due, I wonder whether part of it is less, they're bad with women and more, the traits that make you a very successful elite level entrepreneur, the kind that you study, probably give you some traits that make it difficult to be in a relationship with you. So I wasn't expecting to talk about this, but I have some interesting ideas. So there's this great book that was written by honor trust nigger's girlfriend. He had, he lived with his girl when he was 21 and 26. So he was still well, like, again, he's dominating his weird, niche of bodybuilding, but he's not the Arnold that he's been coming, but he's the same person, so you see it's coming. And it's 300 pages of her just be like, why is this guy not acting normal? It's like, 'cause it's Arnold, he's one of the most driven people in the world. I could have solved that for you in 10 seconds, right? And the end result when I made the episode on that book was like a successful entrepreneur, anybody chasing after somebody, you need a supportive spouse or no spouse at all, right? And that's the key there. What I would also say is, I've been talking to this guy, he considered herself like a consultant to someone who was the famous people in the world, right? And what I find interesting is like, he can essentially pattern match across, let's say, a hundred of the most famous people in the world. And these are like mainstream celebrities. This is not like Menu, right? And he talked about, but in some of these people also happen to be captains of industry, because Elon's one of the most famous people in the planet. He's not one of his people he talks to, but and he goes, the problem that these people have is when you're really successful like that, you have an expansive personality. That's the word that he uses, expansive personality, which means the more you succeed, the more you want to succeed. Napoleon said this in French, and you could translate since you appetite comes with eating. Usually you eat and you're full. These kind of people, the more they eat, the more they want to eat. So his point is like these people also have usually bad relationships because there's a ton of infidelity, right? Because it's just like they're expansive. And every element of their life, they're increasing their skills. They're maybe their movie is getting better, bigger. Maybe their business is getting better, expanding. But in this very narrow but very important part of your life, which is like your romantic side, you're expected to not have those same personality traits. Now I don't have that issue. I can stay with one person at a time. The issue that you have is like, whether it's a very close friend, a business partner, a spouse. These are all very similar relationships. Like they look, they're very deep partnerships. And so you have to be take your eye, be very careful to make sure you're picking the right person. And especially you because your handsome, rich, super famous, like you have, I've seen some of your dams, okay? Like you have, I hope we cut in that lab over there. Yeah, make sure you add that in. Like you have so many people trying to get to you that want something from you that doesn't mean they're good for you. for you. And that's where you have to be careful. That's where you have to be somewhat paranoid. Most people have no idea whether testosterone levels sit. But what if I told you there was a solution? Something that identifies low T faster than a high school bully and it won't cost you all your lunch money. That's where function comes in. Give you access to over 160 lab tests including a deep dive into your full hormone paddle. Every result is reviewed by clinicians. 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You know the advice I've gotten from some of the most successful people in the world about this, so just like make sure that she's a good person. That's it. They just have to be a good person. But good people are few and far between. And what I mean by good is like not selfish, not doing this just because of what they get out of it. And in many cases, dude, Jimmy Iveen, okay, Jimmy Iveen, we got to talk about this because this guy's the best. So when people just ask me, "Hey, you know, who did you want to meet? You haven't met." Jimmy Iveen, I'd have a list and Jimmy Iveen would be in top three and people like, "That doesn't make any sense. Most people don't know Jimmy Iveen is, but one of my favorite documentaries is this documentary called "The Defiant Wants". Have you seen this? No. You've got to watch it tonight. So it's a four-part documentary. It's technically supposed to be about the relationship, the working partnership between Jimmy Iveen and Dr. Dre. That's been going on for decades. It is really one of the best documentaries about entrepreneurship and these kind of wild personality types. Dr. Dre is a wild boy. He is a, he was a probably highly likely child prodigy the best in the world who he does. Jimmy, same thing. He, he was in the music business for five decades and succeeded from engineer to producer, to record label executive to building a business and selling it for three billion dollars to Apple. And so I, Jimmy was on my show. We live close to each other. He's nice enough that I get to hang out with him and like, talk to him on the phone and hang out with him all the time now. And it's what's fascinating is when you talk to these older guys that are, I think Jimmy's probably 70 years old by now. He's got more knowledge about life and his pinky than I do in my entire body. Like he just lived through, he's just seen everything. And his biggest thing was he's like, if you want to be successful, he's like, you probably don't want to be successful for a year or for five years. You want to do it for a long period of time. And he's like, I've been around some of the most gifted, talented people in the world. He's worked with everybody from John Lennon to Bruce Springsteen to Tom Petty to Dr. Dre to Eminem to literally everybody. And out of the one, he's like most people, they're basically gaming. He's like, most people cannot handle success. You're not destroyed by a competitor. There's not going to be another Chris Williams in coming in here and out competing you in podcasting. If you're going to fail, you're going to do it yourself. And with Jimmy said, he's like, they fall into four buckets, which I thought was interesting. Number one, drugs. I don't do drugs. Not going to be an issue. Like I avoid them. Alcohol. Second one. I don't really drink. Number three, Meg Lomania. There's a reason the music industry is like, listen, you start out. I mean, Kanye, I think he'd be a huge fan of his first first realms. I think this is what happened. It's like in Jimmy's saying, it's like really hard that like you get on stage every night and there's 80,000 people telling you screaming your name and telling you how great you are. The problem is to come off that stage and then still be dad or husband, the soft friend. Yeah. Yeah. And you not think. And then what happens is the reason he calls it Meg Lomania is because they love you because the work you put in, the Meg Lomania thinks now you think you're some, you're not even human. You're like some kind of like God. So therefore I just show up and it happens and they, they stop putting the work then it shows up on the work and then it does like the death spell. And then the fourth thing was women. And Jimmy I mean, he's been very, he's like very open about this. It's in the documentary where he, his dad was his best friend like best friend talks every day. Jimmy was dating a playboy playmate and his dad died suddenly unexpectedly. They did not see it coming. And right after his dad died, he decided to get married. And he says in the documentary, we've talked longer detail privately, but you know, just like I married the wrong person. He's very beneficial about all the kids and he's got Ray really should put his adult kids now. He talks to his kids every single day. But he's just like that the wrong woman in your life, the wrong man in a woman's life can literally destroy you. And so I think that, I think this is like we can, we should have an entire podcast next time I come here. We just talk about the stuff we've talked about privately. Yeah, fuck me. But it is, it's a very hard part of your life because I do consider it almost like a drug. Like these people don't start out, hey, I'm going to get addicted to pills or heroin or alcohol. And they're smart and successful. It's arrogant to think they wouldn't happen to us. So that's why I think it's so important to like talk about it. Agreed. Agreed. Yeah, I had this line from earlier this year, what you are praised for in public, you will pay for in private. And a lot of the time, the single-mindedness, the resilience, the motivation, the permanent growth mindset, the attention to detail, the unwillingness to compromise, the hyper vigilance, the anxiety, dedication, all of these things. In the business world, it's called reliability, consistency, non-quiteness. Fantastic in the boardroom can often make you a forgotten person around your kitchen table. I had Andy Stump, Navy SEAL on the podcast. And he said, I built my entire identity around being a guy that doesn't quit. So it made me an amazing SEAL team member. It also made me stay in a marriage for a decade longer than I should have done. Yeah. I don't quit. Not the sort of guy that quits. There are certain domains in which the things that you do publicly aren't meant to be applied. And a lot of those are the ones that happen privately. And then when public and private begins to sort of mesh and blend together, that's what we get with modern social media. You can't see the distinction between the two. And the problem is you're constantly comparing your relationship to other people's ideal relationship, which is very destructive. What I would say about this is you're talking about being hyper rational. I think you approach your business. I fucking know a lot about your business. You're very rational. I actually don't think we should, and I don't want to, and will not do, in your romantic life. I think you have to like, you should be a little bit irrational. It is definitely like a more irrational, emotional thing. That's why I think the advice that I keep getting over in my hands is just like make sure the person that you're letting into your life, the one that you have a serious relationship right now, is just a good person that they actually care about you, that they actually want good things for you. Because it's not going to work if you try to approach it with like a rational mind. It is default irrational. And what I would say, this is something like, so we have a good friend, Sianna LaRocca. Yep. And one of the comments you said I had with her was just like, what are you lying to yourself about? And this could be an entire discussion at dinner because everybody's lying to themselves about something. And what I didn't understand about myself, especially until I started the new show, because I was just sitting in a room by myself for a decade, like talking to myself, like no one was around. And I always thought like, I didn't need anybody, and like, I'm a loner, and like, you know, other people aren't that important to me. And I realized like, no, that's a lie. Like, I had just a lot of low quality people around me. But like, if I could have access and develop relationships and friendships with high quality people, that is my drug of choice. Like, I remember when I went to record with Todd Graves, we flew in a Baton Rouge and recorded in the very first Raising Kings that he built with his own hands. He built it with his hands. It's insane. And I remember calling a good friend of mine. He's kind of like, he's like an older brother, like a mentor, like a coach. And I called him and I was like, I'm in trouble. And he goes, why? I go, because I'm already addicted to doing this. I feel like I'm high as a guy right now. I've never done ecstasy, never done MDMA. I have to imagine this is what it feels like. I want to do this all the time. And so I guess like what I didn't understand what I was lying about myself was like, that relationships weren't important to me where the truth is they're more important, anything else. So I'm sorry to model to you, but I think let me just get this out real quick if you don't mind. I desperately did not want to be a loser. And that's why I work a holic and I've worked full times since I was 15 years old because I saw up and down my family tree. I was just fucking terrified of winding up just like them. And this is the chips on shoulders, the chips on pockets. Like I'm not a strategic person. I genuinely just throw a lot of hours and effort. I don't think I have any strategy. And so I thought forever, like my work is hard to protect myself because it's, it's gives me my independence. It allows me to build a world that I can control because I don't have control when I was younger. It allows me to take care of family members and other people to help. And it's my thing. It's the only it's more important if you were asking it's like more important to anything in my life. And I realized that that's a lie. Like if you ask what's the most important thing in my life now, it is my relationships. It's building and maintaining and deepening the relationships I have with people that are very high quality that I love with everything. And now right underneath that, It works like bumping up against it, but. this is still my number one priority. And I think also, you'll see for people like you, you're super driven just like I am, you for, you for go some professional success, if you want, like a deep romantic relationship. And I would say that's what makes life worth living. You should do that. You should make the irrational choice. How do you square that circle with the single mind, didn't this that most great people have? I don't think you can. I think like there's an ebb and flow, like if you look at a snapshot of like my own life, right? Where undoubtedly, I think I would be even more, I would be more successful if you didn't take out those huge chunks of time to build these relationships both romantic and friendship wise. But that's something kind of life on a live. Now I've met people like that. I knew some of these people have been on my show. You get around them and you literally like, where's our friends, dude? They're not, that's not important to them. That's not what they're going for. They're, they're, they're playing a different game. What I'm saying is like, that's not for me. Like I want, I'm not saying a balance like 'cause I'm definitely not balanced, but like, I, at least just are more important than my work. That's just how I feel. - Thal fewer people than think it or introverts. You're probably not an introvert, your friends just suck. That's a great way to think about it. - And if you had better friends, you'd wanna hang around them. - So everybody has been at a dinner table and adored the conversation and not wanted it to end. - Yeah. - What happened there? Did you change for the evening? - No, I was just around people that resonate. I was around people who I usually don't resonate with, but for some reason they were really on form that night. Well, you can just get friends that are kind of on form all the time and you can also hang around with people who are never on form. - I've had friends of mine tell me this. It goes back to where we're saying the mind is powerful place, which you feed it affects you in a powerful way. They're like, man, you gotta be real careful about the way you describe yourself. And I think around this, I kept saying I'm introverted, I'm like, I wanna be alone or all this other stuff. You know, this is like, that's not how you are. To your point, I think it's more of like an energy thing. Like the conversations we have, I leave George Max Treadmill. - Yep. - If you put me in a big party with a bunch of strangers, I'm like, there's no energy and I gotta run away. So it's more like, am I getting energy from this or am I very uncomfortable when it's a draining energy? If you go to sleep on a wind, you'll wake up with a loss. - So this is actually a con and regrigger quote that he said, I'm pretty sure it's in the document he called the notorious, which again, he did the Konye thing where it's like poor kid in Ireland. He's like, in collections, not paying his credit card bill. I think he's working part time as a plumber and somehow he had the foresight to have a camera crew fall on him around document his life because he was just so convinced that he was gonna be the champion one day, he's gonna be one of the most successful professional fighters of all time. And it's interesting that some of these people don't take their own advice because they get to Danio X point, they entertain the circus. They go to the events, they start buying, you know, loving the material rewards, the drugs, the women, all the stuff that comes with success. And one of my personal heroes, this is again, named James Dyson, one of the best days of my life happened, I think it was last, maybe October, maybe November in New York City, I got to spend a few hours of James Dyson, it didn't episode with them. And the reason this was so important for me, people like the vacuum cleaner guy, like what the hell is he talking about? It's like, no, no. Out of every single biography and autobiography I've ever read my life. And I think as of today, it's like 425 or something like that, because it correlates with the founders episodes I've done. If you only read one book, it'd be his first autobiography, which is called Against the Odds, an autobiography by James Dyson. Because it's not about, today, you've had 40, 70 years old, he owns 100% of one of the most successful private companies in the world. He wouldn't sell it. I had a friend that tried to buy it. He guessed my friend that tried to buy it, that if James would sell it fetched between 60 to 80 billion, James has no outside shareholders, that's 100% of it. My friend put a flyer out to him saying, we want to buy your company. He paraphrased the response that came back from Dyson, which was, fuck you, this is a family heirloom. It's not about the money. He's an engineer, he's a designer, he's obsessed with the work that he's doing. So that book is not about this. It's not the 78 year old James Dyson. It is the Dyson in his 30s and mid 40s that is just failing for a decade and a half over and over and over again. 5126 failed prototypes. The 5127th one is the one that worked. It's the James Dyson that's going to bed 'cause he's working in a carriage house, which I guess is like a garage in England. What is a carriage house? - No idea. - Yeah, I had to look it up. Oh, I thought it's in the UK, so I figured you know. So it's like a detached little workshop outside of your main house. I think it's in Bath, England, where he is. Where he's failing all day long, walks inside, passes his little, his kids, gets in a bed, cries himself to sleep. Then his kid is four, sees him failing. His kid is seven, dad's still failing. His kid is a teenager, dad is still a failure. And so the reason this was so important to me is because I knew I wanted to podcast, I knew I loved it more than anything else. I have this irrational love of podcasting that people make fun of me for and I'm fine with. But I was having no success. It's not that like I wasn't making any money. It was costing me money to do this. My savings went down every month and I used to, for some reason, wouldn't quit. And one of the reasons I don't think I quit is because episode 25, the very first time I read James Dyson's book is I read this book and I'm like, well, this guy struggled for 14 years. Like I can go to go for a year, wonder being five and a half, I didn't think it'd take that long. But like just knowing that story and rereading that book over and over and over again, I was able to relate to him. He didn't give up, why do I have to give up? Like, you know how good you're gonna feel if you get to the other side of this and I did have a lot of faith that I would get to the other side of it. And so when you meet James Dyson though, like I read his first autobiography at least five times, I read the highlights from the book, "Hundreds of Times." This is not a joke, so I'm not exaggerating. I read his second biography which he wrote when he was in the 70s twice. I read, he wrote an encyclopedia when he was like 45 or 50 about his obsessive dimensions. It's called a history of great inventions. It literally is like somebody printed out a Wikipedia page of like 200 inventions with hand-scrawled notes. There's a picture of me and James going through the book and me showing him, like me annotating every single thing. And so be able to see with him, I thought I understood him completely. And there was still, this is why it's so powerful to be able to talk to these people. First of all, he sits across from you. And you realize that he's built, he's not an absentee executive. He does the work. He's on the manufacturing line. He's in the engineering meetings. He's in design meetings. He's sitting across from him. He's a very thin guy. His fingers are probably twice as wide as mine are. Why? Because he's been working with his hands. Like if, look at your biceps. Like how many curls did you do to get those biceps? How many, like him tinkering with his hands? That he's got massive fingers. They don't fit the rest of his body. 'Cause it's like a lifetime of tinkering. It's incredible. But then the reason I say, if you go to sleep on a when you wake up with a loss is like most people that have success, then they're like, I fucking made it. Look at me. I'm the best. And they forget. It's the work that got in there. Not them. It's tied to the megal mead thing. We're diced to sound like that at all. I didn't understand his organizing principle. And so this is what he said. He said, okay, I pick up a product, right? I look at it. I think about, how can I make a better? I make it better. I put it back down. Short bottle later, pick it back up. How can I make it better? I make it a little bit better. Put it back down. And he went through this over and over again. I think he used a coffee cup in the episode. It's been six months, I don't remember. And he goes, and I just did that for 45 years in a row stock. That's the anecdote to the anecdote. I don't know if that's the right word. To going to sleep on a when. He never slept on a when because he likes the activity itself. He's an engineering mind. Everything around him, he says it doesn't torment him. But he'd see this table. He's like, I think I could shave off a little bit there. I could fix that. I could do that. That's how his brain just works. And he just loves it. He's like a giant puzzle. And that's I think that's the way to do it. Or it's like, man, if you just love the activity for the sake of itself and you never stop improving it, like you're not going to fall prey to the failures and disasters of like a Kanye or a Connor and McGregor or any of these other people you see. It's fascinating that that was a quote from Connor McGregor. Somebody that's had one of the biggest fall-offs in history. Unfortunately. Yeah. 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Right now, you can get up to 35% off your first subscription and that 30-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemomentis.com/modernwizdom and using the code "modernwizdom". I check out. I would rather never make it. I am this another thing where you're surprised. Like I've talked to Michael Dell about this, Daniel, that's about this, Todd Graves, Frank Jacob's, like all these, every single person I just mentioned is 10. Michael Dell's worth like $200 billion. And he's just like, it's not the love of success, it's a fear of failure. He's like, for me, that is my worst nightmare. That like, I do mean that. Like I would rather never make it than make it, right? And then lose it. And so this is why I wanted to say something earlier that you just prompted, thought. It's like, it's weird because like all me with like young entrepreneurs a lot, right? And I feel like the middle child. Because. I'm not my 20s anymore, but I'm not 70, you know? And so I'm in both of these worlds. And the advice I give to these 25ers, I go, you should go and spend some time with like a 65 year old, 70 year old, like try to get an afternoon with Jamie Havine, who's in his 70s, who's seen everything in the world, or James Dyson, who's seen everything in the world. Like, we have this guest list that we want to get, and it's in reverse chronological order by age, because some of these guys, like I got to sit down with Charlie Mugher, never got to record a podcast with him. Now it's the opportunity's gone. Same thing, got to sit down with Sam Zell, never got to record a podcast with him. They have all this knowledge, and all you have to do is just like sit down, and they're already down the path that you want to go on, and they'll say, "Hey, watch for that pitfall there. What, don't turn right when this is gonna happen to you." 'Cause you realize like everything that happens to us is not us. If somebody else was sitting in your position, they'd be getting those DMs too. Like they just would. It's not you. It's the position that you're holding. And yeah, I think it's like super important. People say I have a fetish for old people. I don't have a fetish for old people. Just like I want to avoid the failure, the success, and then the decline in failure that you see so over and over and over again. - There's this interview in 1999, Eminem said, "I ain't in this for the money. I'm in here for the respect. If I had a trillion dollars and I fell off, I'd be the most miserable person in the world. He grew up in poverty, but he favored status over money." He favored skill set. So he has a line that I think fits into how I view my own work. And he says, "A plaque in platinum status is wack if I'm not the baddest." And what he was saying at that point in, this is 2003 when I think the Eminem show came out, 2002 maybe. And his whole point is at that time is like, every rapper had the same goal. I wanna go platinum 'cause then you get a plaque. So that's a plaque in platinum status is wack if I'm not the baddest. His contemporaries, his peers were like, "I'm good because I sold a million records. It means people I'm popular and it means I'm making a lot of money." And his thing is like, "I wanna be the best. I don't wanna be the biggest. I want to be the best." And this is why you and I have talked about the craft of podcasting so much. And about like, we had a 30 minute discussion with George before we started recording about like, "How do you pick guests? How do you think about things?" Like, we were obsessed with this stuff. It's like, I wanna make something that I could point to, like I could tell my, Jeff Bezos says this is a great line. He's just like, we're trying to build something that we can tell our grandkids about and such things are not meant to be easy. So in his case, like, he should be very proud of building Amazon. It's one of the best companies ever created, right? I am very, very proud of some of the things that I have made and I have a daughter. So my daughter is 14 now. I just recorded this episode with Mr. Bezos which won't be out for several months. But she was a huge fan. So she got to come with me and meet him. And Mr. Bezos is a massive fan of my first podcast founders. His Spotify rap, he'll screenshot and send it to me as like founders is number one on there. And for her, I'm very proud that somebody she admires is saying, "Hey, your dad's work is like really valuable to me." And she came with me to record Todd Gray's. She loves raising canes. And she knows, the Spotify is like her favorite app is Spotify and my friend runs the her favorite brand, Matt Happy. And all these people are telling her, like, your dad's work is really important to my life. You should be proud of him. That's like, that's worth more than money. It's worth more than a million dollars. Or 10 million that you get if you sold 10 million, or a million records. I do think it's more addicting and it's certainly more fulfilling to be admired by people that you admire. And it's one thing to just seek status, it's another thing to seek money, but to seek status and respect in the eyes of people who you have judged to be worthy of admiration. Inside and I would say outside your industry for sure and even more important inside. Yeah. To fact, they have the highest amount of taste. I think you opened the last episode we did together. Like, did you hear my Q&A where I said you're the podcasters podcaster? Correct. It's like, I do this to this day. I go around and collect more data on podcasters, podcasting anybody else. I shit, and we share it. We like, we don't hold anything. And in one case, I remember my friends, David and Ben, who do the acquired podcast. I was on a walk with David, I don't know, like three months ago in San Francisco. He's actually taking me to the airport 'cause we're just good friends. And I had found an idea from Rob Moore and Andrew Huberman that I gave to them in terms of like, you have a skew, you have an asset in your podcast that you're not currently monetizing. And it's very valuable to advertisers. And this is what they might pay. And I told David this idea. And on the walk, he's like, hey, by the way, thanks for that idea. We're gonna make $3 million from that idea this year. It's just like, I stole the same thing from Rogan back into last year. Yeah. Exactly. So like, the point is, it's all positive some with us. It's like, I consider the historical analogy for me and you is like the filmmakers, right? If you study the early days when George Lucas and Steven Spielberg and Francis Forkopula and Brian Dupalma and all these guys were in their 20s. They were friends, they hung out, they traded secrets, they watched each other's movies, they gave themselves feedback because of the day. If you go watch Steven Spielberg's jaws today and George Lucas's store worse tomorrow, what did Steven Spielberg lose? Nothing. What did George Lucas lose? Nothing. It's like all positive some. Kind of is pointless doing the big journey thing if you don't get to share it with people. And if people are in tangential industries or even in the same sort of an industry, just being able to see the impact that you've had on somebody that you respect and admire, I know that hey, that idea, that was the reason that David paid so much attention to video. That was just like a little contribution. Not nice. Are nice, Ripple. Our mutual friend John Cooin, right? They just had this phenomenal acquisition with TPBN. But well before even that, I've been working with John and like talking about podcasting with John for years before he even started TPN. And he was one of the first viewers of the new show and he's just like, why are you guys only shooting on three cameras? On shoot five and explain why. And then me and Rob made the change immediately. You should try seven. Seven. There you go. But we made the change immediately. And then we're all in a group chat together and Rob had mentioned, we had a good shot and then John was like, hey, this shot looks good or whatever. Because again, it's both, hey, you could approve here, but this is also dope. Like I like this. And Rob's like, yeah, you're the one that told us to do that. Yeah, it's the idea. Yeah, exactly. Jardy, can you pull up on the main TV? Can you just throw the profile shot of me up so that David can look at why you need seven? I'm gonna explain to you. I'm gonna commit you to two more cameras. So we've always had medium tight and then the wide, to kind of classic. I guess if you've only got three, you're going wide, medium, medium. But this shot, where you go very side on, it's beautiful. It's really, really nice. And what you can do, you can reverse frame it. We haven't done it here. But if you move, in fact, I can do it. I can do it by doing this. So if I go like that there, you actually end up with a complete opposite framing. And that's used in documentaries typically when there's gonna be a pivot in the story. So someone's talking, someone's talking, someone's talking. And then there is a moment where things are gonna take a turn for the worst or something. It's the minor chord that somebody plays on the guitar and you're like, oh, something's about to happen. And it just feels very intimate. So that's why you need seven. Season eight winner of the biggest loser was this dude called Danny, just to round out the difference between having never made it and having fallen off. I was watching the documentary about the biggest loser. Accusations of it being predatory and bullying and dangerous and people were getting fucking cardiac arrest and being highly lifted out of that. Probably a big helicopter, I guess. (laughing) He said, there is an ex-Resparsial shame when you feel being a failure. There is an ex-Resparsial shame you feel being a failure after you've been a success. And yeah, I mean, there is a huge, huge, dick that people have. And this is going back to what you said that some people are just not built for success. Lewis Capaldi's like my canonical example of this and I'm so glad that he actually managed to fix his issue and come out the other side of it. But he had all of the singing ability to be this billions and billions and billions of record sales artist. And he didn't have the constitution for a long time to be able to handle the attention. And so many people think that the problem, the reason that they're not famous and they're not where they want to be is because they don't have enough talent to be in the camp of people who has enough talent but lacks the constitution to be able to handle the side effect of being that talented. It just has to be like, oh, it's going to be very unkind. - I want to like, also, like I think we should say something like I don't think success, like I think you should have an internal scorecard, not an outer scorecard. So what I mean by that is like some people let society or other people define what that they are successful. So what I mean by that is like not that I have less downloads in the future. I don't even know how many downloads they get. I don't care. It's what I do the definition of success that I use. I actually got from Steve Jobs, which was like, did I make something I'm proud of? That's it. As long as I keep making things I'm proud of, or if alternative of this is like you know how much time it takes to make a great episode, the amount of prep that you have to do. And for my other podcast, like I have to read an entire book. The danger there is that I give into the circus, give into the distractions, say, oh, I used to put in 30 hours of reading. I can do like six. I can read like the Clifson version and still be as good. That is to me is like, when I consider myself a failure is like, I'm not, I'm no longer making things that I'm proud of. Now you have to make things you're proud of. And also the other side of it is like you have to get it to in front of people and there's smart and dumb ways to do that. But like so there is another element. It doesn't make sense to be the super cool underground band that nobody actually listens to. Oh, it's because they don't get it. They're not sophisticated enough. They eventually you need to listen to the market. You're like, you can be as proud as you want of the thing that you do, but your opinion in terms of taste might not be on the money. you. There's a great line from David O'Govee who is one of the greatest advertising agency founders in history and he says you can't save souls in an empty church. And if you feel that modern wisdom is good for people, then you have a moral obligation to get it to as many people as possible. If you truly do that, which I think you do, I truly believe that people are interested in building a business, creating a product, changing their lives in some manner, which is what's on the word entrepreneurship. It's French for has ideas. Entrepreneur is has ideas and does them. So that's why I consider a podcast entrepreneur, a filmmaker entrepreneur, a person building Amazon entrepreneur. It's all the same thing to me, an athlete on entrepreneur. So somebody has an idea that they want to see shape, shape, shape and actually exist in the world. And so I would say like if you believe that the work that you're doing is good for the world, then I would consider a moral obligation to get it to as many people as possible. David Sunder, ladies and gentlemen, dude, he wrote, I appreciate the hack out of you. Much of people go to keep up to date with everything you do. Just search David Sunder in whatever podcast player you do that you're listening, subscribe and listen. Join us. The podcast is podcast and listen to found this as well. All right. Goodbye my beauties. Bye. Dude. Yes. Yes. We did it again. So good.