#14 Australia Day: Changing the date is not the solution with Kurt Mahlburg

Welcome to the Feminine Manifesto Podcast. Join us every month as we discuss issues facing women in the 21st century and try to even through a gospel-centered lens. We are three mums with young children from Australia who are concerned about the lack of truth being spoken in our culture. This podcast was born out of a desire to free women from the liars they are being fed from the world. We are not here to be controversial intentionally, but to seek to point women to the truth that can be found in Christ. We hope you enjoy coming along this journey with us. Hello Kurt and welcome to the Feminine Manifesto Podcast. Hey Heather, it's awesome to join you. Thanks for having me on today. Well, thanks so much for coming. It's privilege to have this chat with you. So today, after reading one of Kurt's articles on the Australia Day debate, I wanted to have an interview with him to have a chat through some of his thoughts which I found really helpful. So before we get into that firstly, Kurt, can you just give us a little bit of background and understanding of who you are, what your work looks like, your writing work looks like as well? Yeah, thanks. So I am an Adelaide Hills Dweller. I grew up here, lived here, married two kids, and I've kind of been in all sorts of different, I guess, pursuits over the years. I originally studied architecture at university. Then I went into school teaching when the GFC took the bottom out of that industry. I was in teaching for several years, then I was in youth and young adult ministry. So I worked for five years at my local church in Nutcapacity as a pastor. And since 2018, I think it was, I've been working with the Canberra Declaration, which is a pro-life, a religious freedom marriage and family Christian institute. And we've also launched a new site called the Daily Declaration, which has grown quite significantly over recent years. So that's obviously where you came across my piece about Australia Day. Yeah, yes. Yeah, as I was preparing for this, I was thinking, oh, Daily Wire, no, it's not the Daily Wire, it's the Daily Day. All right. That's the one. Maybe the equivalent. So in your article, you've talked about Australia Day, and we're coming up to celebrate Australia Day. And there's so much I find to celebrate about being Australian today. Why do you personally like to celebrate Australia Day? Yeah, well, I guess I love history and I love looking back at the past, you know, how our country came to be. We began as, you know, essentially a prison colony. Obviously there were free settlements to South Australia being one of those. But when you look at where we came from, essentially just a bunch of rag tag, Brits that got dumped here, you know, a couple of hundred years ago. And the amazing prosperous, incredibly blessed nation that we are today, I think that's something to be extremely proud of and very, very grateful for. So I guess when I think about Australia and I think about Australia Day, it's in that context is looking back over the passage of time and just seeing where we came from and just how amazingly blessed we are. And I think that's something really to celebrate. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, completely agree. So in your article, you mentioned that the majority of Australians, 76% actually want to still celebrate Australia on the 26th of January. Sorry, celebrate Australia Day on the 26th of January, which is really a great statistic because I feel like you look at the political landscape and the news and it doesn't seem like this. So what's your thoughts? What do you think that is? Yeah, well, I guess to talk about that statistic first, it comes from the IPA, the Institute of Public Affairs. Obviously people might criticize that group because they are sort of center right, I suppose. But they've tracked this question over time and not only is it substantial, 76%, but it's also grown over recent years. So I think last year, it was 69% favorability or support. So that's gone up by another seven percentage points. But also, it's not just the IPA. There are other groups that do that ask similar questions. I just saw, I think it was a Roy Morgan poll yesterday. It came out and there, I don't know what their leaning is, but it's a separate data point. And I think it was something like 60% of Australians want to retain the 26th of January as Australia day. So it's not just the IPA, it's not some right wing thing. There's actually pretty good evidence out there that there's very strong support for celebrating Australia day as we currently do. But as to your question about why is there a, I guess, a disconnect between what the public seems to want and what the media is portraying. Honestly, I see that misalignment in, it's manifested in countless ways in the media. We, you know, the views that are portrayed on the nightly news and in the newspapers and, you know, by these big media organizations and the views of everyday Australians just don't align on just about any topic that you can imagine. Maybe that's not true of every topic, but so many topics. And I don't know, there's a whole bunch of, there's a huge background to that, of course. But I think in many ways, you know, the media has its own interests. Often there are people at the top who have certain agendas. And generally journalists come from a more of an elitist, highly educated background, insulated from the concerns and the difficulties of everyday Australians or everyday Americans, whoever it might be. This is a phenomenon seen across the Western world. And there just isn't a clear understanding of what life is like for just ordinary people. You know, I think there's sort of an elite bubble that has been created in the media. There's also ideological, you know, historical developments as well. We could talk about neo Marxism. There's, you know, how deep down the rabbit hole do you want to go? But I think it's not just on this topic of Australia day. I think it's, you know, almost any culture, cultural war topic that you could imagine, the views of common everyday Australians and the views of journalists and the media kind of crew is, you know, vastly different in so many cases. So yeah, for sure. And I think because of the way they put this forward, through the media, people would be fearful of expressing their views because it's so politically charged. Absolutely. Yeah. And sadly, I think that's that's kind of the environment that's been created in in many Western countries. Australia in particular is people feel quite afraid to voice what they really think. And the irony is that that maybe the majority of people that we work alongside or study alongside or just do life alongside actually share our views. But we've all kind of learned how to self-sensor. We've become fearful of expressing what should just be normal opinions. So I think that's very sad. And so it is important to be able to talk openly about this like we're doing today. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, I really appreciate your thoughts on how long it is until a people become indigenous to their own country. So like you, I've lived in Australia my entire life. My whole family history has been here for over six generations, both coming out as free settlers from Scotland to South Australia, actually. So that takes us to at least the mid 1800s. But I'm not considered indigenous. You're not considered indigenous to say that is probably quite offensive even in our culture now. So can you take us through your thoughts here about that? Yeah. I mean, you've hit an important point that it probably is seen as offensive to even suggest the possibility of a Caucasian Australian being indigenous to Australia. I guess that it might be seen by some as trying to take the identity of indigenous Australians. That's not my intention, but I think the concept of indigenity is just a really fascinating one. In the article I wrote about the Pemorank people. So that's the tribe that originally lived on the land, the Adelaide Hills, where I lived today. And what I explained is they likely took it by conquest from tribes before them who likely took it by conquest from tribes before them. And that's based on what we understand about the history of pre-colonial Australia. There was warfare, intertribal warfare, there was violence, there was land acquisition. So that's well known. We don't know the specifics about the Pemorank, but generally speaking, that was the case in Australian history. And then of course, if you go back beyond that, we know that Australia wasn't always inhabited by anyone. The Pemorank were descended from groups of migrants that came through South East Asia, through the Asian subcontinent, back to the Middle East. And depending on what your views of origins are, perhaps Africa or as a Christian, I believe, from the Tower of Babel, you know, got created the whole human family. And then we sort of spread out from there. So it's not as though Australia was always inhabited. And there's also the possibility that there were people that lived here before the Aboriginal Australians came. So the point being, the concept of indigenity is very subjective, and it's very time bound. So if the Pemorank could be understood to be indigenous to this land, but they weren't always here. Well, I wasn't always here, but my ancestors have been for generations. So yeah, how long do we have to wait until I'm considered indigenous? That's essentially the question I was asking. So I'm not claiming to be indigenous. I'm simply challenging the idea, the very idea of indigenity. And the reason I think it needs to be challenged is because, perhaps initially, there were good intentions behind, you know, these categories of indigenous and non-indigenous in terms of Australian discourse. But in all honesty, I think over recent years, I have seen that those divisions have actually created division in Australian culture. Rather than creating healing, they've actually created more and more division. And it's not like I'm saying this, and I'm a white Australian and all Aboriginal Australians disagree with me. That's not the case at all. There are activists who disagree with me of both indigenous and non-indigenous heritage. But likewise, there are indigenous and non-indigenous Australians who would agree with me too. So the ideological lines are actually not raised their wokeness, their ideological. There are plenty of really well respected Aboriginal Australians who would take my view of this, who really don't like the categories of indigenity and non-indigenousity. So yeah, as I say, this is an ideological division, it's not a racial one. Yes, for sure. And there's so much in that to unpack. But I think just focusing on that questioning what is indigeneity and how long that takes is really helpful just to think about, yeah, as you've mentioned. And as you said, we're beginning to see that the problem here, it's not actually the date. So it's an ideological problem and the fact that Australia exists, as you've pointed out in the article. And this came out quite clearly in that picture by the popular feminist artist, Charlotte Allingham, depicting an Aboriginal girl standing on a white man, spearing him quite gruesomely with the Australia flag being burnt and abolish Australia written on it. That was really confronting to see. And you've written on that too, which found really helpful. And I'll link that in the show notes for anyone who wants to have a look. So what, I mean, you've already touched on it, that it is an ideological debate. But do you think that changing the date is going to have any influence on helping us move forward here? Yeah, it's a great question. I guess the reality is there's a spectrum of views on Australia day and on changing the date. And so I don't want to lump everyone in the one category and assume they all think the same. I'm a Christian and I know that there are Christians who would want to change the date and there are Christians who think it's great as it is as I do. But you know, when a Christian or non-Christian, there really is a spectrum of views. There are some people who are very soft on this issue who would say, yeah, like let's change the date. Let's try to appease, you know, you know, all these issues that are being talked about each year when Australia approaches in the hopes that that will settle the question. And you know, for some people, I guess that will settle the question. But if you look a little bit deeper down the rabbit hole, this is not just a question of the day. There's a whole ideological background to this, which is essentially decolonialization. If you know, if you and your listeners are familiar with that, I guess ideological framework, the idea is we need to decolonise Australia. Australia was colonised by the British and and still has British Caucasian, largely Christian influences in all of our institutions. Obviously, that's faded a lot over recent decades, but you know, needless to say, it's still there. We have the rule of law. We've got democratic institutions, you know, marriages still upheld, so it's changed a lot. But you know, that's all essentially that's all baggage from colonisation. And the idea of the decolonisation movement is to unsettle the idea that all of that is the right way to do things that, you know, that Australia, as it currently stands, is invalid and needs to be totally remade in the image of, I don't know, Marxism or just the decolonisation narrative. So, for some, you know, Australia is a wedge issue and they're hoping, you know, that if we change the day, that will actually open the door to everything else that they want to achieve, which, you know, in many cases is just totally remaking Australia. And again, that's another very deep rabbit hole, but you don't have to go very far online if you, you know, if you google Australia and decolonisation to see what some of these people are hoping to achieve. We saw some of that in the voice debate as well. Yes. Yeah. Okay. That is helpful to think through the spectrum of people who are speaking out on this issue. So, I think there would be a lot of Christians, we're both Christians, and coming from a perspective of forgiveness and wanting to restore people, wanting to have show love, and would think, okay, let's just change the date so that we can share this with the Indigenous people and make a path step forward towards that. However, seeing this from the perspective of there's a decolonisation movement out there who wants to abolish everything that Australia has created, that's a real problem. It is, yes. And I don't, I guess, as a Christian, I'm sensitive to that very, I would say, gracious attitude, which is, you know, let's, let's concede just this one issue and hope that it can foster reconciliation. Like, I think a lot of Christians have good motives in thinking that way, but I also try to take a bit of a historical lens on this. And when you look at all of the dates that have actually already been added to our calendar, not all of them are national holidays, but many of them are marked by significant celebrations. They're talked about on the news, the ABC, you know, churches even getting on board with a lot of them, whether it's NAIDOC week or national sorry day. There's actually a list and I provided this in the article that we're discussing. Maybe it's a dozen dates on the national calendar every year that are really centered on grieving what happened to Indigenous Australians, essentially apologising for colonisation in various forms. And so I guess I'm also not convinced that if we've already added all of these dates into the calendar, you know, each year we're marking these and, you know, using them as opportunities to mourn colonisation and what happened to Indigenous people. The idea that we can, you know, change the date of Australia day and that somehow will achieve what all of those other changes have not achieved. I'm very doubtful about that, to be honest. Yes. Yes, that was helpful you putting down all those dates that were already celebrated within Australia. Yeah, just think about that. Yeah, I don't necessarily contest that, you know, we shouldn't be marking those days. I think obviously there are things to grieve, there are things to mourn. Yeah, for sure. But yeah, I really am doubtful that by changing one more day that somehow that's going to fix things that all of those other changes have not already fixed. So yeah, for sure. And I think making room for this debate to actually take into account how can we move forward and grieve actually what has happened because there have been grievances that have happened and horrible things that have happened throughout history. However, the current debate and the current push from this side is, it's not helpful. So yeah, yeah. And I also say that it's fairly unbalanced in the sense that we are called to grieve and mourn, you know, colonisation and what happened to Indigenous Australians and for good reason in many cases. But we are actually prevented or very much, you know, discouraged from celebrating the good that colonisation brought. I mean, the fact that you and I are talking on these devices over thousands of kilometres, you know, that's modern technology is one of the blessings of colonisation in Australia. We would be able to do this where it not for that or we wouldn't be living under rule of law. We wouldn't be living in, you know, air conditioned homes with, you know, high quality clothing and, you know, all the different, all of these things are blessings of colonisation and we're not allowed generally to talk about that the good things we are only, you know, told to mourn the bad things and I just think that's pretty unbalanced. It's a pretty pessimistic view of history and not a very accurate or honest one. So yeah. So what do you see as a pathway moving forward so that we can celebrate this great country that we do live in? Yeah. I guess at the end of the day, you're not going to appease certain segments of the population. I think there'll always be a minority that are loud about Australia Day and wanting, you know, to push forward the decolonisation narrative abolish Australia, abolish Australia Day, all of that. And look, we live in a democratic country and I appreciate the fact that I can put my views forward and therefore, you know, other people who think differently should also have the right to speak on these issues. So I'm not suggesting that we should shut, you know, the debate down totally. Yeah. I don't know whether there's a solution as such. I guess just telling the truth. And ironically, you know, truth telling is something we're told a lot about in, you know, this space of indigenous activism. Yeah. But there's a lot of truths we're not supposed to talk about that are to boo. But if we do, as I just have as an example, you know, the blessings of colonisation, if we're allowed to tell the truth about that and we continue telling the truth about that and trying to get more of a balanced perspective on these things, then I actually think the segment of the Australian population that's pushing to abolish Australia Day will shrink because it's just an untenable position. So yeah, I think more talk about this and not less is probably the best way forward. They say truth is the best disinfectant, right? Yes. Yeah. That's great. That's really helpful. I'm really helpful to think through. You can tell that you've researched a lot on this and have thought through it quite deeply. So thanks for doing that and thanks for putting these articles out there. It's really helpful for lay people like myself and people reading this. Yeah. Of course, yeah. Thanks. Yeah. Thanks so much Kurt for joining me today. It's probably should be able to chat to you through this topic and yeah, hope you have a great Australia Day. Awesome. Thanks so much, Heather. It's been great to be with you. Happy Australia Day. Thanks. So ultimately, personally, for me, this comes down to a world view problem. If you believe the world was created by God, humans were created equally in his image and that all nations of the earth were dispersed around 5,000 years ago from the Tower of Babel. The notion of Aboriginal complete sovereignty doesn't hold up. And additionally, this debate, there's no talk about forgiveness. Forgiveness is a distinctively Christian notion and without it, we're going to be left in this perpetual sorry state where your ancestry determines whether you are a victim or an oppressor, despite never having committed or faced those injustices. We've all sinned against God and all deserve punishment for that. However, he offers forgiveness to us, to those who will receive it. So come to Jesus and receive the forgiveness that he offers and then be free to offer that to others so that we can unite as fellow Australians and celebrate this beautiful country that we live in together. Thanks for joining us today. We hope you found this discussion beneficial and it is our prayer that this will cause you to see Christ more clearly within our culture. If you enjoyed this please like and subscribe as this will really help our podcast to get to more listeners. Join us next month as we look to apply more truth to current cultural topics. (upbeat music)