Speaker 1Ultra running shoes are all about space. The space to go further, to feel better, to do something you never thought possible. And this space starts with UltraFit. Unlike traditional running shoes, UltraFit gives toes more room to move naturally, so every step is strong, balanced, and comfortable. Whatever you're lacing up for, stay out there with Ultra. Shop now at ultrarunning.com. That's A-L-T-R-A running dot com.
Speaker 2Hank joined BJ's Wholesale Club the day he became a father of 30. I coach football. Now Coach Hank saves up to 25% off grocery store prices, 30 pounds of pasta, 3 cases of protein bars, 75 sports drinks. And that's just pregame. He knows teamwork, and BJ's knows savings. This is your home, Coach. Home of the Save. Join for just $20 at bjs.com slash mesquite and save 10 cents per gallon for 6 months. Open soon. Limited time offer. New members only. BJ's. Home of the Save.
Speaker 3So today I want to talk about something that doesn't really get a lot of attention in the recovery community. And that is this sort of predatorial behavior for men and women, let's be honest. Maybe some women somewhere. Mostly men, though. And I'm going to talk from a male perspective here, obviously. So I'm going to give some information, but also a little bit of my thoughts on it and my experience with seeing 13th stepping in the rooms of recovery in rehab. And I'm going to explain what 13th stepping is. I'm going to explain. What it's about. How you should look for it. Why you shouldn't fucking do it, for sure. Because I'm going to get into it. For some people, recovery spaces, meetings, rehabs are the most vulnerable places. They're dangerous environments. And they've ever been in. And so they come from a dangerous environment where they're experiencing predatorial behavior and harassment beforehand in addiction, in crack dens and in trap houses. And then they go to rehab. Or recovery spaces. And it feels worse sometimes. Or it feels just as predatorial. And all these past traumas and shame can get sparked up. And it's a tough place to be. I want to feel safe in my recovery community. I want to feel safe in my environment. I want to feel safe in rehab because I'm here to heal. And we're all here to heal. We all have one primary purpose. And that is to stay sober and help the next addict or alcoholic who's still suffering. So I'm going to talk about manipulation, power dynamics, and what's known as 13th stepping. What is 13th stepping in recovery? Recovery isn't just about staying sober. It's about staying safe. So first, what is 13th stepping? In recovery culture, 13th stepping refers to people with more time usually or experience pursuing romantic or sexual relationships with newcomers, with new people. It often involves a power imbalance, not just attraction. So there's manipulation tactics involved. And it can be a very dangerous place for a lot of women. Men too. Especially women who are new and coming in and scared. And they see somebody that has what they want in terms of sobriety. And they might be a good looking, put together guy. And now they're pursuing them with manipulation tactics. The guy is and it bothers me. And that's why I wanted to do this episode because I've seen it. The groups I've been involved in over the years, I don't see it a lot. But if I do see it, I stop that shit right away. I always steer very clear of new women in recovery. I stay clear of women in recovery in general. But I definitely stay clear from newcomers who are women. I stick around the guys. I try to help out the new guys that are coming in. And that's how I can be of service. This is how I watch for 13th stepping in recovery. Why is it a problem? Well, I mean, it's pretty obvious, but newcomers are emotionally raw, vulnerable and seeking stability. We're looking for help. We're looking for stability. We're looking for calm and peace. And they may confuse attention with care, intensity with connection, guidance with trustworthiness. So a lot of people look trustworthy in recovery. I'm going to trust this guy because he is reaching out his hand to help me. Meanwhile, the motive is very much in the opposite direction in a sexual or predatorial way. And it's not always obvious, too. It doesn't look predatory at first. It looks like, hey, let me help you. I'm going to help you get through this. And we're taught in recovery to look for people that have what we want. I always say to people, if you're new, stick with the same sex, whatever you identify with, stick with that sex. And I was always taught now this might be controversial, but I was taught if you are gay or homosexual, you stick with the women that might get confusing, that might get blurred lines. So all I'm going to say is stick with the sex that you are identify with. So I want you to think about this. Was there ever a time in early recovery when you trusted someone because they had more time sober? I know that I did. It happened to me. There was one time I was at a recovery meeting and a woman came up to me, she was obviously under the influence and she asked me to sponsor her. It was very uncomfortable. It was very awkward. But I just calmly said, oh, no, let me introduce you to some of the women. I know some of the young women that I know that can help you. This is something that I try to do today, direct them in the way of other women. So when it comes to rehab, it creates a unique environment where we have we're isolated from the outside world, we get very strong trauma bonds and connection with the people that we're around, that we're spending every day and every minute of every second eating meals with recovery groups or spending a lot of time with these people. You get some really strong relationships in rehab. So people in recovery are not automatically healthy. There's a lot of old behaviors and old ideas that get cropped up when we come into rehab and we tend to act on them because there's nothing else to do in rehab. Being sober doesn't automatically equal being emotionally regulated. We know that, you know that, I know that. Some people carry manipulation patterns, control dynamics, unresolved trauma. They bring that with them into rehab, into recovery spaces, and they project it onto the world, onto you. And that can be dangerous. It can be unhealthy. It can be scary, really. Another thing that happens is you'll see people that are maybe there for their fourth, fifth, sixth time in rehab or in coming back from relapse four, five, six times. They know the system. They know what to say. They know how to look good and be Mr. Recovery and Mr. Rehab and check all the boxes. And they know how to gain trust quickly. They're good at manipulating because let's be honest in addiction. This skill is probably the most widely used is manipulation. I manipulate my family to keep using and drinking. I manipulate my drug dealer to give me more drugs without me having to give up more money because I don't have the money. There's a lot. This skill is sharpened in addiction just because someone knows recovery language doesn't mean they're living recovery principles. This is a common thing that we see in recovery spaces where people can talk to talk all day and they can quote the book and they look very healthy. But when they leave the meeting, they're screaming at old women and they're flipping people off and they're cutting people off in traffic. And they're just miserable to be around. They're not good people. They're not acting on good principles. I shouldn't say not good people. They're not acting like good people. They're not acting on recovery spiritual principles. They're not acting like good people. How manipulation shows up. So some common patterns of manipulation is fast emotional bonding. So trauma bonding, in other words, we're bonding on past traumas. Oh, I've been through that. You've been through that, too. That was tough. How did you get through it? We have a we create a bond on our past traumas and our past experiences. Love bombing, intense attention early. I always say this, but we come to rehab and come into recovery and you take away my medicine. I'm going to look for other things to fill that God sized hole that I have deep inside me. What's a better way than to fill it with a person to fill it with sex? This is what happens when people come into early recovery. They look for new things to use and abuse and get high from. I can get high from other people's attention. I can get high if I'm people pleasing and I have codependency issues, which a lot of us do when we come in here, that person that I relate to so much can fill that hole. They make me feel whole, make me feel better. They can be my drug. I can snort them. So creating dependency, you need me to stay sober. This is a manipulation tactic. I can help you stay sober. And without me, you're not going to stay sober, isolating from others. They don't understand you like I do. This is another tactic blurring boundaries. This is a dangerous one, emotional, physical controlling. So there's no boundaries. There's you know, they're manipulating, making you think that things are OK. You're safe. Meanwhile, you're. You're crossing every boundary that you have. And it's hard to to create a boundary in early recovery. Some red flags to look for moving too fast. Secrets or private communication. How many people in rehab have seen those rehab relationships? Lord knows I've seen so many of them where two people are just hanging out a little bit too much and they're being secretive and they're doing their own thing. This is fucking dangerous in recovery. It creates isolation. And then if that person relapses and then you've made that person your higher power. What now? That person has relapsed. I'm going to probably relapse because I don't know who to lean on. I don't know who to trust. I don't have a recovery community. I only had this one person. It's dangerous. Don't make anybody your higher power. Another red flag is making you feel chosen or special. This sounds very culty, but it's this classic manipulation. One on one and undermining staff or other supports. Have you ever ignored a red flag in your recovery relationships because you didn't want to lose that connection, you didn't want to offend the person. You didn't want to feel bad. You might have a relationship right now that is built on manipulation and built on predatory, predatory behavior. And it, you know, you can get out of it, right? But it's, am I afraid to say something that I'm going to lose this person? And is this relationship healthy for me? Only you can decide that. So what are some of the consequences of this manipulation in these relationships, these really tight knit bonds in early recovery, especially opposite sex. Emotional consequences are confusion, shame, attachment trauma. Recovery consequences are relapse risk increases for sure. Focus shifts from recovery to relationship. I always say this. If you put anything before your recovery on the priority list, if recovery is not at the top of that list, if you put anything above that, you will relapse. It's only a matter of time. When I first came back, I put my wedding above my recovery. I put my marriage above my recovery. And what happened? Well, over time I was spending more energy on trying to perfect my marriage and my relationship. That my recovery started to fall. I started to pick my marriage over my wife. To a lot of people that might sound fucked up and selfish. Well, how are you going to put your wife before below your recovery? Trust me. I've been doing this long enough to know that if you put, if I put anything before my recovery, I will lose everything else. If I put recovery at the top of my priority list, I will be able to enjoy all those things to the fullest extent because I will be a healthy recovered person. I will be, the best version of myself. If I put my recovery first, I've learned that time and time again. So today my recovery comes first in my priority list. It doesn't mean I neglect my wife and choose recovery meetings or recovery over her recovery friends over her. It just means that first things first, I have to put God first. I have to put my recovery first. Those are synonymous for me. So another way this power imbalance can escalate in this manipulation, this relationship, and this 13th stepping is emotional manipulation, control, the person has control over you and power. And in some cases, exploitation, they can exploit you to do things for them because they hold the power. The hard truth of all this is some people relapse because of these dynamics and they don't even notice that they're in it. Early recovery is about rebuilding yourself, not attaching yourself to someone else to feel okay. That is so important. Focus on yourself. Be selfish in the way that, don't be selfish in the world, but be selfish in the way that you're going to put your recovery program first. You're not going to think of yourself as a person who's going to put yourself first. You're not going to put yourself first. You're not going to think of yourself all the time, but you're going to put your recovery first until at least you get some time where you can start being of service more to other people. It's a funny paradox though, service, because service and helping others benefits my recovery today. It benefits my ability to get out of myself. And it's sort of this weird paradox where when I'm helping somebody else, I'm less selfish, but I'm also more selfish in that I'm putting my recovery first by helping someone else through their recovery. It's a weird paradox that you can only experience. And it's a weird paradox that you can only experience when you're helping someone else through their recovery. And it's a weird paradox that you can only experience. I can't explain it to you. So how do I protect myself from 13 stepping or how do I protect someone else? Maybe no major relationships in early recovery. You hear that a lot. I did a whole episode with Caitlin about codependency and relationships and recovery. Just try to focus your first year on yourself. You, the relationships will come, but you really don't have a lot to offer. I didn't have a lot to offer my first year of recovery. I came in with my marriage. So that's different. I put my recovery program first always, or at least I try to, I work on that every single day. I'm not perfect, right? We're talking about progress, not perfection here. So generally people suggest to take six months to a year to just focus on yourself, build your self-esteem, build your recovery program, build your recovery skills, your spiritual principles before you can bring anything into another relationship. Also, when you come in, you're not aware of these red flags. When I came into recovery, I'm not aware of these red flags. I'm not aware of these red flags. I'm not 100% self-aware. I'm not aware of the manipulation tactics of somebody else. So it's best just to avoid them altogether. I've never, and I can honestly say this, I've never in my life seen a rehab relationship workout where both people stay sober and don't relapse. And I, usually it ends in the ultimate price in death. And that's sad to say, but it's true. It, I've never seen a rehab relationship or early recovery relationship workout. Some practical boundaries here. So keeping your relationships peer-based, not dependent, avoid secrecy. I always say secrets keep us sick. You're only as sick as your secrets. Staying connected to multiple supports, not just one person. Don't put all your recovery in one person. Get a mentor, get a sponsor, whatever that looks like for you. Trust structure, not individual. So trust the process, not any human person. Humans are finite. The program, the power, God, whatever you want to call it, the universe, spirit is infinite. Put your trust in that. Slow everything down. So if it feels intense, pause. Speak up. If something feels off, say something to staff or trusted support. Say something to a, say something to a tenured member of your group. If you see some behavior that is predatory or 13-stepping or say something, speak up. Tell somebody about it. Safety in recovery isn't just about substances. It's about how you're doing. It's about how you're doing. It's about who you let close to you, who you let in. Ask yourself this question. Where do I need to get stronger boundaries in my life right now? Where do I need stronger boundaries in my life right now? So next, for people with more time, let's talk about accountability here. You, whether you realize it or not, you have influence over other people, over others in your life. So if you're going to put anyone on a pedestal in recovery, but there are a lot of men in my life in recovery that I put on a pedestal. I look up to. I want to be like them. I don't, I want what they have in their spiritual principles, their spiritual connection, their program. I don't want their cars. I don't want their lives. I want their principles. I want to act the way they are. I want to be the kind of man that they are. I look up to them. And if I want what they have, I got to do what they did. We have a responsibility as people to do what they did. We have a responsibility to protect the newcomer. I firmly believe that. Don't pursue them. Get them help that they need. If you see a new female, you're a male coming in, guide them, like I said, to a female that has a strong recovery program. I've done that many times. You could save their life. Be aware of the power imbalance that exists in rehab, in recovery. Real recovery includes integrity in relationships. Doing the right thing when nobody is watching. So let's reframe the experience. Important nuance here is that this is not about blaming the person who experienced it. It's vulnerability was exploited, not a weakness, but a state. The growth angle here is awareness turns into boundaries, turns into stronger recovery. So let's just be aware of this behavior. It could be happening in your group. Be, pay more attention, be more open to it. You may save someone's life. You may get somebody, help get somebody sober by preventing this behavior, this 13 stepping, this uncomfortable, predatorial touching or harassment. Some people don't want to get hugged and we go and hug them anyways. Be aware of that. Ask somebody before you touch them, before you hug them, before you talk to them even. Do you feel safe right now? Do you feel safe in this group? Is there anything I can do to help? We need to take more responsibility for the new people coming in so that they don't get hurt. We need to take more responsibility for the new people that they can feel safe in recovery, in early recovery. Remember how hard it was coming in and how vulnerable and how naked you felt walking into recovery, how dangerous it felt. Be aware of that. Help somebody else through it. It's not easy, but it is simple. If you're new in recovery, I want you to hear this very clearly or you're coming back. You deserve safety. I was made felt, I was made felt safe in early recovery when I went into my groups. If you're a part of a group or recovery community, you're a part of a group. You're a part of a group. You're a part of a that you don't feel safe in, fucking leave. There's tons of groups in the city, in every city. There's online meetings. There's tons of recovery communities that will make you feel safe. I've been a part of so many of them. You don't need to stay because you think that's the only group where it has good recovery. Leave if it's uncomfortable. Find a new group. Tell somebody about how you're feeling. Maybe you're overthinking it. Maybe that person doesn't, you don't need to be around that person. Speak up, talk about it. You deserve respect and you deserve the space to figure out who you are without someone else shaping that for you. You deserve the space to figure out who you are in recovery without somebody else telling you or shaping it for you. Recovery is about finding yourself, not losing yourself in someone else. I can't stress this enough. If you're in early recovery, just focus on yourself, man. Just, the relationships will come. The men will come. The women will come. The relationship will come when you are spiritually fit, when you are in a relationship with God, when you are in a relationship with God, when you are on firm spiritual ground, when you are confident in yourself and your recovery abilities, it will come. Maybe you don't need to look for it right now. Maybe this time is best spent working on yourself, helping new men through if you're a man and helping new women through if you're a woman. Nobody deserves to feel like they're being pursued or attacked or harmed or harassed in any way in early recovery. This is, needs to be a safe space and you can create that safe space. for somebody else, especially if you've been around for a while. Go out of your way, reach out your hand. create that safe environment if you see 13th stepping going on please for the love of god end it step up to the plate tell that person to stop doing it tell somebody else if you're uncomfortable with that that has more time than you and just be of service how can i be of service this is so important a lot of women and men go back out because they are 13th steps because they are made to feel not safe in recovery why would i if i'm new in recovery why would i go into a recovery space where i'm feeling harassed pursued 13th stepped when i could just go back out and use drugs and it'd be a lot easier because this environment's not safe i felt safer in my home doing cocaine and meth think about that let's get together and create a safe environment for everybody no matter what race creed color religion fucking status economic status doesn't matter you , we are all here for one problem and we are all here to pursue one solution that is contented sobriety if nobody has told you this today i love you please like subscribe follow the podcast i love every single one of you recovery is simple and it's not easy
Speaker 2hank joined bj's wholesale club the day he became a father of 30 i coach football now coach hank saves up to 25 off grocery store prices 30 pounds of pasta three cases of protein bars 75 sports drinks and that's just pregame he knows teamwork and bj's knows savings this is your home coach home of the save join for just 20 at bj's.com slash mesquite and save 10 cents per gallon for six months open soon limited time offer new members only bj's home of the save
PodcastTranscript AI