[Music] Hello and welcome to Challenges that Change Us, the podcast where we talk to our guests about how their challenges have impacted them today and how they overcame them. Whether you are someone that feels like you are thriving right now, trudging through the mud, or somewhere in between, this podcast is designed to give you practical advice, profound insight into your own experience, and inspire you to embrace your life. My name is Ali Flynn, the co-founder and CEO of Tri-Aged Shoot Performance, and I will be your host. It's time to buckle up your seat belts and let's get this ball rolling. [Music] Welcome back everyone. You must be sharing the word because this week we hit 18 countries internationally. The main way that people hear about this podcast is when you send it to a family member or a friend so you guys are doing an incredible job and thank you so much. Today's episode is completely different from the other episodes. You may have noticed that every four or five episodes we bring on an expert in their space to talk about a challenge that they see every day. What this means for you is that the flow and energy of the conversation may look and feel completely different to the others that you've been listening to. Today we have Mia from Greyrock Consulting, a proud mum who spent 16 years as a lawyer navigating complex disputes across construction, engineering, infrastructure and energy sectors. As an experienced lawyer trained to stick to the facts and leave all emotion out. She found this difficult to apply personally and reached out for guidance and support from someone who understood. This experience together with the story shared by many amazing people has led her to truly recognise the need to help other women build and strengthen their muscle to help navigate their own personal situation. Her specialty is to work with clients who are trying to manage communicating with controlling, narcissistic and high conflict personalities. This can involve things like over-taxing, constant emails, phone calls, social media trolling and so much more. We talk a lot about narcissistic behaviour in this episode so I thought it might be helpful for me to break it down for you first. Narcissism refers to extreme self-involvement, self-importance and a sense of entitlement to the degree that it makes a person ignore the needs of those around them. While everyone can show occasional narcissistic behaviour true narcissists frequently disregard others and their feelings. They also don't understand the effect that their behaviour has on other people. It's important to note that narcissism is a trait but it can be part of a larger personality disorder. Not every narcissist has narcissistic personality disorder as narcissism sits on a spectrum. People at the highest end of the spectrum are classified with the personality disorder but others still with narcissistic traits may fall on the lower end of the spectrum. People who show signs of narcissism can often be charming and charismatic and they don't often show their negative behaviour right away, especially when it comes to close intimate relationships. The DSM-5 describes narcissistic personality disorder as a pattern of grandosity, need for admiration and a lack of empathy. Mia has created a whole business around empowering women escaping narcissistic personalities. Throughout this episode we also talk about domestic violence. In Australia, our statistics of DV is alarming. It is one of the main drivers of homelessness among women, children and men. Domestic and family violence involves abuse and violent behaviour towards a partner, former partner or family member. It extends beyond physical violence. It involves actions that control, humiliate or scare the other person or people living in the household. National statistics can help us understand the gravity of this situation but, alarmingly, many victims of domestic and family violence never report their experience. With so many incidents going unreported domestic and family violence may be much worse than we think. The ABC reported in 2022 that 18 women have died so far from domestic violence. In 2021, almost two in five recorded murders were related to family and domestic violence. The National Women's Safety Alliance, NWSA, has released new findings which show night out of 10 domestic, family and sexual violent frontline services have reported an increase in demand since the COVID pandemic began. These are the conversations we need to be having more of. Over the course of this podcast, I hope to provide more education and support for victims of domestic and family violence. This is a topic that is extremely close to my heart and I will do everything in my capacity to continue to help anyone living in unsafe family environments. And now, onto the chat with Mia. I really hope you enjoyed this episode. So welcome Mia to the podcast. Thank you so much. I'm very excited to be here. This one I've really been looking forward to this one. I'm actually, I guess, because my psych background so interested in listening to what you have to say about everything today. Thank you. So how you've been stuck at home this week in ISO? I'm most certainly half with two children. We all got to stuck down with COVID. So it was nine days all in all. So I cannot tell you how happy I am that we are free. It's not fun. What was the first thing you did when you got free? I went grocery shopping. Please tell me you got a coffee or something. So sad. It's so sad. I dropped the kids to school and no, I got out on the weekend. So I didn't even do that. I got coffee and I got groceries. Good. At least there's a coffee in there. I'm like, you're a mum. You've got to do something for you. I've never been so excited to be in a shopping centre getting groceries. There was just a luxury. So there you go. And Mia, I really love to start this podcast with a question that a lot of our guests find really hard. So the question I ask is if you were to pick an animal to portray you, what animal would it be and why? This is a tricky question. Be easier if it was my favourite animal. I would pick right now at this point an animal to portray me, I would pick the black panther. And they are, you know, they represent a species of animals which I quite like. It's more like a community focus. But also they are knowing for, you know, all of their abilities out doing what they do, you know, they're very smart, you know, they're fast. All these great qualities. But I saw a description of a black panther where they said, they called it the Ghost of the Forest. In other words, you know, the other animals don't see them coming. And I know that sounds a bit scary and a bit store-crishen. I don't mean it too at all. But I quite like the sense of like, I see you, I see you and you don't see me and it ties in nicely to what I'm doing in my life right now. So that's why I picked that one. Yeah. And what about your favourite room or place when you were growing up? Did you have one? My favourite place growing up, I was so fortunate to have the best grandparents in the whole wide world. And my mum's parents in particular, I spent a lot of time with. And my grandpa used to take us a lot down to this one river and we've catch jellyfish and we look at the palakans. And I just, when I look at my childhood and look back, I just look at that time, but then so fondly. So I really, really loved the time with my grandparents as a kid. So that's absolutely one of my favourites. I often say to people, you know, you can't replicate a grandparent-granchiled relationship if it's positive. I can't think of any other relationship in the world that is that amazing when it's a good one and it's positive and resourceful. Absolutely agree. I have the best memories with grandparents. So I think it's absolutely fantastic. And tell us me about you. So obviously, you've had this whole colour throughout your life. And I'm really interested to know some of the chapters that have got you to where you are today. Yeah, I, you know, it's an interesting question. I sort of look at it through, you know, how I got to where I am now. Unfortunately, when I was really little, when I was two, my father passed away. He had a brain tumor and he died quite quickly. And my poor mum was 25 with a two-year-old and four-year-old. Which, you know, now that you, as you get older and you have kids, you look at it in a very different light and you think, wow, what she did and what she went through by herself. Unbelievable woman. Very grateful to her. So then I also, you know, my mum remarried and my stepfather. They're quite similar. You know, I joke with my mum. I was like, "Gee, like the older Italian men, there's definitely, you know, that in her life." And so I definitely had a, you know, quite, I described as quite an Italian upbringing. Very family-oriented. A lot of eating disagreements could be quite passionate, you know, those sorts of things. So my stepfather, who I called dad was in my life for a very long time. And then at a very young age, I was in year five, I was 10 years old. And we went on an excursion to free mantle jail and they did a mock trial. And I was Ned Kelly's lawyer. And I won. And from that day, I was like, I am going to be a lawyer. And it's just always what I was going to do. And I did. But through how this like, you never waved from that. Never, ever changed. I loved, you know, that was a great experience. But what I did love about a lawyer and what I thought it involved, you know, that sense of justice and helping and community and balance and helping people. And I love all of that. It's a real passion of mine. So It never changed and I went through primary school and high school, did my law.
degree, also got an accounting degree and became a lawyer. So did you do, I'm just thinking at school, did you do like the mock trials and legal studies and yeah, I did all of that and you know, it's probably important to tell in terms of challenges as well that you know the subjects you have to do to get into law school, you don't have to do the top maths and the top science because it's not you know a criteria for law. But unfortunately when I went through high school and maybe it's changed, the topics I did were you know when you do your 12 exams in perfect or you're T, you get a T-R, you do T-R and you get a T-R score. And that score is brought up or down depending on what you do and I selected politics and legal studies and those sorts of courses which were actually graded down. So my score from my exams got me into law school but then it was graded down and I did not get into law school. So I don't think I came out of my bedroom for days, I didn't speak to anyone. I was devastated. So I spent a year doing commerce, my dad was very very focused on me being an accountant, he thought lawyer was a terrible decision for a woman, I couldn't get married and have kids and they're lawyer, right? So did accounting for a year and then I got into law. So you know I think that's also important to know that if you don't get it the first time you can do it again and it'll come. But also I'm just thinking about that little girl in your five that made that decision and then didn't get in my god. Do you want to add another layer on that? You know and I hate to speak negatively of him because he did a lot for us my stepdad but also you know my whole life he told me that being a lawyer was a bad choice for a woman for a girl. So there was the the the mayor that was devastated because that's what I always wanted to do and then there was the mayor that thought oh my gosh my dad was right I should never have done any of this. So it was a really big blow but I think it's important to know that you can get back up and you can do it you really can. And I know we're not talking about that challenge right now but I really do want to ask you how you got back up. Like I just need to before we I know this isn't the challenge we're talking about today but this is really this is where the magic happens you know like as that teenager girl that had just how did you get back up? So as I said there were days of not speaking and for anyone who knows me that's quite the challenge because I love to talk a lot. So there were days of no talking I was devastated but you know what I started doing my account from degree I didn't love it it didn't drive me didn't make me passionate statistics and all the things I didn't like so it made me even more focused on getting into law. I said no I am going to do this. So you in I think what you're saying is like you just channeled your energy. You know what that no just makes me work harder. Want it more what are the ways that I can get that and I don't know for you but definitely for me when I went through uni because I actually studied law at uni. I loved it I don't have a career in it but I absolutely loved it. Yeah I know I don't know if this is how it is now but back then no one told me that you can do another degree in transfer across. Like I did law at uni and absolutely loved it and but I thought I had to get in first go and that was it. I completely agree with you it's very much and I'm hoping it's changed now I feel like kids in you know high school know that there's options out there and it's not the V all and end all but certainly when I did it it was like you're getting to law or you don't that's how I saw it. And that's how it was in my for me as well very much so and interesting that your dad was like law is not for women because I know from my background they were like you do law you do medicine you do so like you know they were kind of the three that you do yes and so it was the opposite experience for me it was like my parents were super proud that I was doing lawry into law I think sometimes I used to feel that pressure. Yes you know like I said he you know he's Italian he had very traditional views and he immigrated here from Italy in the 50s early 50s and I found a lot of that you know my parents and their friends that you know immigrated similar times they they held those sort of old school views about you know a girl should be seen or not heard and you shouldn't question things and you should get married and you should have children and a degree is great but you know so he was very focused on you can't be a lawyer and work part time and have children and there will be things so yes that was another thing driving these proving that all wrong as well yes and so what kind of law did you go into when you finished your degree so when I finished when I was at university they had mooting competitions it's a terrible name but it is advocacy and it is a mock trial but before actual judges so if you got to the final stages you would have chief justice and justice as a Supreme Court of Western Australia who would be the judges so it was pretty exciting so I won one year which was amazing got my name in the whole way all very exciting yeah yeah and so through that the law firms sponsor those competitions because it's also their way of saying okay well who do we want to get into our firm when they finish um so the law firm that sponsored that competition at the time probably still is one of the top tier with the top law firm in Australia it's now international so I got a job there and I went straight into their litigation team because I just knew that's what I wanted to do I wanted to resolve the arguments I wanted to find the middle ground get people to get along yeah and so yeah I went straight into litigation you had to rotate at the time and try different areas I tried one of the areas and send me that because I just know this where I want to be they agreed with me and so yeah I've always been a litigator at first in the commercial space commercial disagreements and then I ended up somehow specialising in construction litigation so all the big infrastructure disputes and building and energy and all those sorts of things so it's been a ride that's for sure wow yes that's incredible sorry you're so focused like these laser focus I want to do x and I want to do y and I love that I love that so much and how long were you in law for so I'm still practicing so I've done it for over 15 years now which is when you do the numbers you think no it could possibly be that long but it is I think that every day yes I can't be that long what are you possibly? I know when I got my 20 year high school reunion I was like this is an error this couldn't be for me but it was I'm hearing your paying girl definitely I understand that completely yeah so what would be one of your career highlights when you think back over those 15 years there would be so many I've had some pretty cool ones actually I must say and you know going to a law firm that I did more often than not you are representing big corporate clients but at one stage we we did represent the corporate client but it was in the Victorian Bush Fires Royal Commission all those years ago and that was incredible because it was the first you know trial or you know before a royal commission where you are dealing with people's lives and you're dealing with people's grief and that was I get goosebumps just thinking about it and talking about it because more if and than not in those law firms your counterpart is another big corporate and they're fighting over hundreds of millions of dollars or something like that you know this impacted people and their families and their lives and their homes and you're representing the person that was accused or the company that was accused and maybe starting a couple of those fires incredibly difficult to navigate incredibly difficult to sit there every day after the lunch break the royal commission would always hear the evidence of a victim's family member or the victim if they survived and you just want to cry your eyes out you can't that was an incredible privilege to be a part of because it made and it recommended changes to help people ultimately and to ensure that these horrendous bushfires don't happen now as we know they you know they have been bushfires in New South Wales and it's awful but that was an incredible privilege to be involved with because I got to hear and experiences people's personal stories and impacts and that really touched me a lot and that impact that it's had to this day absolutely absolutely you know you also see in those processes how our justice system is just set up in such a you know almost cold and black and white way because if we were in a courtroom their feelings about things are not relevant and you're like gee that's awful it's you know some people just wanted to sit there and say I lost my child and I'm devastated you know we don't provide that space for people in our justice system and it's it's unpleasant yeah and it's one of the reasons I didn't go into law because I thought I don't think I can be up against this system I need the emotion is so important and the facts are absolutely the facts and you need them and you need to come back to them but yes I don't know there's people in that process so yeah yeah interesting to hear you say that yes I think what I can say is that our courts whether they be you know our family courts our commercial courts the court prod issues you know they do have a focus where they say try and resolve it because being in the court is not in your interests it's time consuming it's expensive it's emotionally draining which it is but at the same time they pit one person against the other it is the way the system is set up so you're asking people to meet and resolve yet you're putting them against them each other it's really there's a lot of work to do in that space and the other part of it is it's so incident focused what happens when as opposed to there is a pattern there is a history and that's important but there's no space for it I'm sure we're going to get into this today but when we talk about domestic violence like previous behaviors are the biggest indicator of future but we don't consider that we're doing it's crazy and I think something you said there around you know trying to resolve it outside of the court I think that's a really important point in the
that every day kind of messaging is, oh, it will go to court or end up in court. So when someone's going through something, it's like we won't be resolved until we're at court. There's kind of this mentality around that. And I think we need to help change that and help people understand what you were talking about. - Absolutely. - The processes of what court looks like and why it's more beneficial to do it a different way. And I think that always comes back to what is the outcome you want to achieve here? And is there another way we can achieve this? And I think we'll get to that as well because you are spot on the court system. You do not just go to court and get the answer. It's years. - It is. - It is years. It's awful. - It's awful. It really is unpleasant. But then on top of that, when you are being asked to try and resolve something outside of the court, but your opponent is a high-complete personality or a controlling or a narcissistic personality, you will have in that court process a magistrate check in and say, where are you at? What's going on? They don't see any of that. They just want to get you out of the system because our system is overwhelmed. And that's why it takes so long. And you just want to say, yeah, but you don't understand who I'm dealing with. So it's really tricky. And I really empathise with all the people out there who are in that situation. It's tricky. - And let's talk about that because this is your new career. (laughing) - Your new business, which I'm so excited about. It's for everyone out there. Me and I first connected because when I heard her speak, oh my God, I was like, I want to jump through that screen woman and give you a cuddle and tell you, I'm behind you every step of the way because what you are doing, I think we need so much and is so valuable. So can we please chat through your new business? - And thank you. And thank you so much for your support. It is truly appreciated. What I did discover, you know, when you look back on your life, you know, my childhood, you know, the interactions I had with my stepfather and family, my career, my gosh, being a lawyer in a very heavily male dominated area, litigation, construction litigation. - Yes. - You know, married, divorced kids, you know, you look back and you go, oh gosh, what just happened? (laughing) - And so I did do that. And I saw the various personalities that I had to deal with and how you navigate them. And what I learned, you know, something that I really, really needed, I spent a lot of time trying to understand high-comflict personalities. You come across them in so many facets in your life. So, you know, people who just seem to create conflict when it's really unnecessary. - Yes. - Some people who, you know, can be very manipulative, very intimidating, very controlling, you know, I guess it is coercive control as well. This covers that field. - And sort of like a tack outwards and take up space and don't let you have any kind of personal boundaries. - Very entitled. - Yeah. - And a very different set of rules for them and you. So they can do something, but when you do it, go off a bit. - It's that sense of like self-importance in a way, isn't it? - Yes. - And they just truly cannot see, they believe what they are saying. They really believe what they are saying. And it doesn't matter when you say, "Yeah, but look at what you wrote yesterday in this email." Nothing works. So, you know, those experiences where you just like, what is going on here? So I sort of went on a personal crusade to get to the bottom of these personalities and how to deal with them. That took a long time. There was a lot of information out there and it's incredibly helpful. Where I couldn't reconcile it is applying it in my personal situation. So as a lawyer, you are black and white. You are sticking to the facts. There is no place for emotion. It gets you nowhere. You are, by the fact, this is a strategy, cut out all the other noise. When you have to apply that to a personal situation, whatever it might be, it's actually very, very difficult because it is involving things that are personal to emotional to you, children, family, career, whatever it might be, it's very hard. And your reaction is to go, "I never did that. I never said that." And you want to defend yourself. What you're actually doing is feeding that personality. And what you are ultimately doing is creating more because you're feeding it. Fuel to the fire. Yes. And that's what they want. They want your attention. They want your response. They want it all so they keep going. And before you know it, you're thinking, "What's where, oh my gosh, I've just received so many emails or text messages or whatever it might be. What's happening here?" Yes, I can relate to that so much in my experience as working as a psych, especially in domestic violence and sexual assault in that it starts off so small. And they're all of a sudden, it's like, someone's standing there, dearing headlights, just thinking, "What just happened?" Yes. I don't know what to do with this. Yes. No one's going to believe me. And that's the key. I think there's a real misconception around what can form abuse or coercive control. And look, we are certainly in a time now, thankfully, where a big spotlight is being shown on this area. And the misconception was, well, where's the bruise? Did he hit you? What's happened? And now we are starting to see and learn and understand that abuse can take many forms. It can be physical, it can be sexual, it can be financial, it can be emotional and psychological. So words, words can be abuse and they can be absolute weapons of destruction, that is for sure. Definitely, and I would say most of the clients that I spoke to, they would say, "I wish I had the bruises because people would believe me or I do have evidence or I could take photos." It's an often it's the words like, "You are fat, you are no good, no one's going to love you." They are the things that go straight in and stay. It becomes an inacritic people start their sense of reality, becomes warped. And that's what I was going to say where we touched on before. This is a process that is implemented over time. So it doesn't work with our core system because the core doesn't want to hear any of that. They want to say, "Well, where's the incident? What happened?" And you're like, well, hold on, just let me take you back X amount of years to the beginning and I'll take you through the journey how, you know, my soul was destroyed and I'm not trying to exaggerate or be dramatic. That is what happens in these situations and they know the things to trigger you. They know the things that will upset you. It's an insidious, insidious thing to be stuck in. That is for sure. Yeah, and also finding the words to describe it. Often it's a feeling in the room too, you know? So you can't actually put words around it. There's going to be people listening that are like, what are kind of the characteristics that you see in someone that loves the high-conflict situations or narcissistic? What are the key characteristics? Yeah, so there's actually quite a long list and there's a lot of excellent resources out there and the thing is they can fall on a spectrum as to what they implement and how they implement it. So everyone can have a different experience, but when you hear these stories, the experiences are different, but the behaviors or the patterns can actually be scarily similar. So there is entitlement. I am entitled to speak to you how I see fit. I'm entitled to demand whatever I want. There is the high-conflict. They crave the disagreement. They will, you know, the sky's blue. No, it's not. It's gray. Oh my gosh. No, it's blue. You end up feeling like you're going crazy. The gaslighting, the intimidation, the bullying, you know, the list really does go on. They can be quite underhanded and covert. And this is where a lot of confusion comes in because to the outside world, people think they're great. People go, you know, and it's interesting because recently a lot of researchers come out which has said that in Australia, women who are subject or experienced coercive control on average, they are mature, accomplished and universally educated. So a lot of these women don't see themselves as victims or understand that they could be victims because they think, well, how could this happen to me? To me, how did I get here, you know? Yes. That is a really interesting statistic. Yes. And then to add on top of that similar research also found that in Australia, the men who have gone on to commit into the partner homicide were actually, you know, that they allowed proportion of them have been middle class and well respected with little to no criminal history. So they're not who you would expect? Yep, absolutely. And that is from, I guess, in the counseling room, Annie Doto from Annie Doto experiences, that's definitely what I've seen in the workplace working in DV and sexual assault for 10 years. Yes, they've also to add on to the research. They've also recently found that three in 10 men in Australia think that claims of abuse are exaggerated or they're not believed. And it's one of the worst stats in the Western societies that don't pardon the survey. And you think, wow. So we've got a lot of work to do. And it's been done, which is fantastic. But this is a really important space. I think the awareness has started. I'm not sure that the access to know what to do and get help, which is where you come in, is there yet. So people are starting to be like, yes, I know what domestic violence is. I think or it incorporates more than just physical violence. [BLANK_AUDIO]
we've definitely increased society's understanding of that and that when someone tells them it might be, oh okay well what next and I think that's where people are getting stumped right? It's like I don't know if a friend's talking to you and we will get into later in the podcast but if someone's experiencing this like what is it that you're doing with this new business? Okay so what I found personally was listen to your instinct more often than not well I should say in all the stories that have been shared with me the beginning was something felt off, something felt wrong. Now we often ignore it or we explain it away, we all do it. For me the feeling got so loud it could not be ignored. So you know what I would say to women in these situations and it is predominantly women but I'm not saying that it doesn't happen to them as well is that listen, listen to that feeling don't ignore it, start researching that's what I started doing and then you start to see it's an experience where you go okay I am not alone there are people out there going through this and there's a lot of helpful information out there to understand what's going on. Now what I found and what I am doing is I'm providing a service where I help women navigate communications with a controlling narcissistic high-conflict personalities because you can be in a situation where you are receiving numerous communications emails, text messages, WhatsApp whatever it might be on a daily basis and they are overwhelming, they are time consuming, they are upsetting and more often than not you're trying to manage your job maybe children, maybe care-taking responsibilities life and this is happening every day now it's not seen and for people who haven't experienced it or who don't understand it go okay you got some emails what's the big deal it is a big deal so what I discovered was is there is a lot of information about out there about how to communicate with these personality types there's no one there actually helping people implemented and it is the implementation which is the trickiest part. So you will read that you know get your mum or a friend or someone to vet your responses before they go. Now there's two issues with that if they don't understand the personality type they won't be able to give you good advice and that's not me being critical it's just the truth because they really are unique personality types and they're quite hard to actually comprehend they really do that they do. The other side of it is these people also have their own lives and if you're getting multiple communications you're going to sit back and feel bad to ask them to look at everything every day it's a lot it's a big ask so you know you might be able to get an external lawyer or your family lawyer or someone to do it but that's really expensive. Super expensive. Yeah it's really really expensive and they don't need to look at every single thing that goes out is the reality so I realised that there's a gap here and it's a really critical gap because you do you should not go through this alone it is tricky and support is important someone who is objective who can say I understand why you want to write all of that but cut out three quarters of it because you are exciting and justifying don't do it. Yeah it's fuel to the fire. Yes so it's through this. Yes and I thought there is a real space here you know obviously all my legal experience of over 15 years comes into play as well because that's what you do every day in that in that field so there's a real space here to help people navigate support them through it but then also to tailor their responses based on their personal circumstances because it's not a one size fits all the recommendations are clear but you do have to tweak it for your circumstances and what I will flag here is you absolutely have to tweak it if you're in the family court because the recommended approach can almost be viewed as a loop or uncooperative because you're being quite blank and white so if you are in the family court you do need to tweak it a bit and that is to you know be courteous and ensure that you are being viewed as not the high conflict person in the situations. So just to be super clear on this so if someone is sitting here and they're like yes my god that resonates so much I want to reach out to me you will help go through their communication. Yes. Like looking at what they're sending look at what's being received help them navigate that. Yes. To what kind of point is it like at the end is it now you need to see a lawyer or with sort of this situation or you're in a safe place or like yes so what I do with clients is I say they explain to me the situation that they are in and the troubles that they are having. Now how I help them depends on their circumstances whether it be editing their emails or we meet on Zoom and we do it that way. It's what works for them and what's the most important for them but what I say to all of them at the beginning is what is your your guiding compass what's your north star so when you get to the end of this process whatever your process might be with this person what is it is it the best interest of our children is it a fair financial settlement is it a you know to get through it as peacefully as possible to where I am no longer having to contact with them what is your guiding compass because how you manage them may change depending on the circumstances that your guiding compass your north star will always be your guiding light to decision making so sometimes you can get so emotionally involved in something you're like no I'm not going to do that and you go hold on my guiding compass is a fair financial outcome that decision wasn't based on that so let's go back to that so you will always be true to yourself you will always following your ultimate outcome and what that stops you from doing is getting involved in the game because you always come back to your ultimate outcome your god your north star and I think too that would be amazing to have someone to talk that through with because we when you're in that high emotional state it's very easy to forget what outcome you're trying to achieve sometimes it's like yes I'm so angry or I'm so I'm my heart's breaking or I'm grieving or I'm scared or I'm frustrated and that's what takes over it becomes this huge cloud so how do you find that north star like you said and keep coming back to that it's like you might go off or you want all like rivers or all streams to come to the main river absolutely and so the counter to that is a good guiding compass has got nothing to do with the other person if your north star is I want karma I want him to get what's coming to him no your north star has to come back to you and it cannot be about them so that's how you work around that I completely understand seeing things and getting angry or scared or wanting to explain that they're wrong I get that so I always say walk away from the communication take your time never respond immediately unless there is an a genuine emergency never respond immediately walk away walk away it's going to be I'm going to ask you in a moment about your top three tips in the communication space but something that's coming up for me is we're talking is around safety so if the women are reaching out to you one of my concerns the council would be one of the first questions I'd say is how are you going to keep yourself safe because obviously you don't want them to see the communication and if they're still living in the home environment with them do you have any recommendations around that so we go through that as well when I meet with them to talk about what situation are they in are they out are they still in the home of this person you know whatever it might be and are they safe because at the end of the day if you are not safe it is you know emergency services and you call the police but we do talk about well do they have access to your email do they know your passwords all these sorts of things because you do have to make your safety a priority absolutely and I remember one person said oh gosh you know he does have access to my passwords but I don't think you check my email change your password change your password but what I also offer is consultations and meetings over zoom so if you are concerned about having a written record there emails whatever it might be this is another option where if you're out of the house you can jump on your phone and you can zoom with me so we do talk through you know your safety and making sure that you are okay and all of this because it is so important so important and there are levels of safety if you're listening to this in that when we say calling emergency services we'd have that conversation with you I mean I'd say that may for you too wouldn't you because I know that can bring alarm bells it's like if I talk to someone about this are they going to call the police and I think it's a conversation to be had right yep so we will discuss your personal circumstances and your scenario so that it can be navigated in in the right way and keeping you as safe as possible and that can include you know various options you know if you are consulting and there is a threat to your physical safety within your calling trip below you know so it depends on what's happening for each person pretty much but these things absolutely have to be considered absolutely yes hey I hope you're enjoying this episode if you are and you'd like to learn more or engage further with our podcast community you can do this in our Facebook group just search for challenges that change us on Facebook or look in the link in our show notes in this group we'll be sharing extra content
and giving further background to our episodes. So I hope to see you there. But for now, let's get back to the episode. And so what would be your three tips for someone in this communication space? You mentioned one earlier about not replying straight away. That's a great one. Yes. And when you say not replying straight away, I think we should clarify some of the timing around that, like when also not saying in the next minute. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So I would say there are some big tips. And I touched on this one before, knowledge is power. And by that, I mean not only knowledge about how to communicate with them, but say, for example, you are in the family court, speak to a family lawyer, or do some research to understand your rights in that field. Because what you will find is they will communicate with you and they will say things about that process. And they'll scare you. But if you know that can never happen, or if you know that's not how it goes, well, you're in your power, aren't you? You're not scared. You're not being bullied or intimidated, or threatened in any way, show perform, because you know it can never happen. So knowledge is power. It really, really, really is. So I really recommend understanding your rights and understanding communicating with these personalities. That's a big tip. Taking control of your communication. So by recommend, choose one form of non-emergency communication and I recommend email, because it is date and timestamp. It is a record, you know? But also what you should do is create a new email. So every time you log into your hotmail or Gmail or whatever it might be, you don't see their name a million times, because they can be really triggering as well. So if you create a new email, you choose when you see it. If they disregard your request to email a different email account, I think you can set up email rules too, so that it then goes somewhere else. You take your power back and you take control of when you see their name, because that can be upsetting enough in and of itself. Depending on the circumstances, you know, often you would check it every two to three days, for example. You know, because it's non-emergency. I get rid of text messages, all of that sort of stuff. And the only time when you should be on the phone is if it is a genuine emergency, because when you're on the phone, you're triggered, and they can say whatever they want, and you don't have the time to stop and breathe and come back to it. And you don't have a record. And also, I think we all fall in this trap of, well, they won't be able to get me. If you're not checking the email and it's emergency, they will call you. You know that they'll call you. You know they'll text you. So just, I think there's a little bit of self-chat to happen there as well. It's like, this is the avenue, and it's going to be okay, because they can reach me. All they'll ring my name, but all they'll ring my, you know, if it is an emergency, they can get hold of you. Correct. And so I think with text messages as well, it's information that has a genuine timing issue behind it. You know, like, I can't pick up Ali from school today. Okay, fine. You know, because that's unhelpful to see that in three days time in an email. So, you know, and I think another big tip, which, you know, is so important to remember, these situations, they are motivated by a need or desire to dominate and control. So once you start stepping away from that, and asserting boundaries, your boundaries, they don't like it. At all, they want you to respond immediately with a million messages and emails and apologies, and they want you on that merry-go-round. So when you start to stop doing that, they don't like it. So know that they will, you know, they will get worse before they get better. And it's so important to know that because often people will start implementing these techniques, and then they will stop, and they will revert, because they go, "Oh, that didn't work. You really have to stay the course. You really do have to stay the course, and that's why the guidance and the support is so important, because it's scary." And the research is huge on the violence increasing when someone takes action, whether it's stopping communicating, leaving the home. As soon as that control piece changes, I think that's when we see an elevation of control violence. Yes. And I think, you know, I often describe it, and again, you know, it depends on the circumstances, but when we're talking about the emotional and psychological abuse, so taking out any sort of violence and things like that, you know, it's like when you go to the shops, and you see the toddler who wants the lolly, when you're about to go through the register and the parents says, "No." And then they escalate. And parents say, "No." They escalate. And they keep going, and what the toddler's trying to do is find the point where you're going to break and say, "Okay, fine, have the lolly." It's similar, and I don't mean to downplay it in any way, because there are genuinely situations where people's physical safety is at risk, and that is a whole other safety plan. But that is, you know, I guess it's a good analogy to show what they're doing. So when you start seeing those emails come back, escalating, they're wanting to find the point where you're going to go, "Fuuuh!" and you go back and you revert. But if you stay true to that toddler and say, "You are not getting that lolly pop or whatever it might be," they do eventually give up, but it's a tough process because they yell, they scream, they cry, and it feels like forever. So it's kind of like that in that situation. I love that analogy. I haven't heard that one before, but it is a fantastic way to kind of highlight and showcase that escalation of behaviour and. And it's the heart of course. It's not. It is the heart of course. So it's much easier to go, "Oh my god, I'm so embarrassed. You're screaming, there's people. Oh, I don't want you to cry. Ah, you take the lolly." That's way easier. The heart of part is to stay true and hold that boundary. It's tough. And I also just wanted to jump back to the recording because I think that's really important. And it's something that maybe people are unaware of the importance of it going later on. So can we just touch base on why is it important to have a record of the communication? Yeah, it is really important because let's again talk about the family court. What happens is your evidence, you put together an affidavit, which is your sworn statement as to what has happened. Now you're already limited because it is quite incident-based. You know, what you were put in there is, you know, on this date, he said this, it is way better to put it very simply to have evidence and say at an extra A is the email that he sent me on the 5th of March at 3pm. There it is. You're not in a he said she said anymore because he can quite easily turn out to have never said that. No, she's overreacting what I said was this. That's very different when you think about it. That is very difficult for a judge. He doesn't know you or she doesn't know you, so no either of you. So they are then in a situation of who do I believe and you do hope that in the process this person reveals themselves for who they truly are, but you never know. And you never know what judge you're going to get, whether the judge is informed or whether the judge has been around for many, many years and thinks women are just complaining. You just don't know really. Yeah. So it is evidence. It's actual evidence. And that is why you also have to walk away and take your time because, guess what also is evidence? Your response. Yes. So if your response is, "I hate you, you're the worst, you just hate our children." And it. No. No, no, no, no. So, you know, this is why it's really, really important because it is evidence, but please remember it is also evidence against you. So that's why your responses are very important. And it also sets a scene if there's multiple emails, right? It stamps it for you. But if you can't do email and if you can't get them to respond to you or communicate to you via email, I always say take a photo of the text message as well and send it to your own email. Yes. Things like that. There are a few little tricks because the problem with text messages is they can get deleted. You might lose your phone. There's not kind of the same storage like an email. Absolutely. You can write a diary, but diaries are often found, especially if you're still in the home. So trying to have a safe space to store stuff and your own personal email is often that place. Yes, so you're right. There are other options. And there is another. There's some great tools out there, especially when it comes to parenting apps like my family where everything is recorded and you do not have the ability to delete or retract. So once they send something, it is stored. So there are things out there that are set up for these situations. Again, you know, you're also relying on them using it. So another trick as well is, like you said, taking screenshots of your text messages and emailing them to yourself. Contemporaneous emails. Try not to send the email to yourself six weeks later. And it's really time consuming, unfortunately, but this is a long game where you send the email to yourself. And you say, today, this is what happened. These are the text messages I got. The reason why I've done this is because A, B and C. Again, that's evidence. Is a contemporaneous record of what is transpired? That's really, really good advice, I guess, from being in the industry, personally and from you being in the industry. I would just be like, oh, awesome. Look at all your evidence. Like let's take this to a lawyer or the police or whatever. But generally, from my experience, it takes a women a long time to get to that place that they will start recording. So if you're listening to this and you're wondering if it's you, see if you can get that system in place and hopefully you'll never need it, but at least you've started the process. It will be worth every bit of energy you spend on it. Because if you do need it, it will be gold for you. And there are some really first-class ways of documenting where you really need to, where it is month.
by month and a sheet with links to the email, a calendar of behaviors, a calendar of changes in the children that you've seen and you literally provide that, you know, drop-bought links to tealoya and say, "Here it is." So, you know, there really are ways to do it and it is all about protecting yourself. And what about someone that's listening that is like, "I'm not in that situation, but I've heard my friend or my best friend or my sister or someone that I know that's going through this." And I'm always like, "I don't know what to do," or it doesn't, sometimes the response is, "They're always complaining and, you know, they're not doing anything for themselves." Like, that's a tough one too. So, what would be your advice in that situation? It's very tricky and it would be really difficult outside looking into saying, "Oh, can't you see what they're doing?" You know, we have to remember that when you are in a situation, you know, you are emotionally invested. You know, there are feelings there. There's trust, there's love. There's a whole list of things. So, it makes it very difficult for you to truly see what's in front of you and that can take time. So, I think as a friend, your starting point is to be an ear and to hear them because if they feel that you're not hearing them, they're going to close up. You don't want them to close up because often what perpetrators will do is to isolate these people. So, listen, and when they do speak, a really good response is not to say, "Well, that's terrible. He shouldn't do that. Did you tell him that that's wrong? Don't do that." And I know it all. It always comes from a good place, but it does sound quite judgmental and they feel judged and then they close up. What a really great way to turn that around is to say something like, "Oh, okay, wow." So, he said that to you, "How did that make you feel?" Let them talk about their feelings because, do you know what, as they talk, they'll be like, "Actually, I felt really, really awful. I felt that he wasn't hearing me." "Oh, okay. Does he do that a lot?" "Oh, does he? How does that make you feel?" Because it sounds like it's happened quite a bit to you. Let them talk about their feelings without feeling judged by you. Don't let him do that to you. Why didn't you go? Why do you put a. It's really unhelpful. It's a process. These women are scared. They've also been convinced more often than not that all of these issues are their own. Yeah, their sense of reality is warped. They think they are at fault and that's something really important to remember. That's why they're not seeing it the way that you are. So, support them, listen to them, ask them how that particular incident made them feel. And can I do anything to help you? Is there anything I can do to help you? Yeah. And just to add on to that, correct me if this is something, because this isn't my specialty, but I would often also encourage to mention to them to start documenting in their emails, like we said, but also make sure that other person doesn't have access to their emails. So, that's a very easy question to ask and the suggestion that you can make. Also, get some help for them in the sense that giving them some numbers, like giving them me as Instagram or Facebook page or website, giving them some hotline numbers. Again, just mentioning, just keep yourself safe in this. Where can you put this that it's a safe place? And also, the big one would also be to say, I'm here for you. Know if you we don't end up speaking, like if you find that you get isolated, I'm here. You can call me out of the blue any year's time or in three years time and I am here with you and I will come and get you. Absolutely so critical to know that no matter what happens, that friend, family member, whoever it might be, is a phone call away and that they will always support. I think you also touch on them. It's so important, you know, we really have some great resources at our fingertips now, you know, whether it be online information, whether it be 24/7 free counselling services in this space. A lot of the websites now are set up with a quick exit. So, if you have to get off quickly, you can. There is a lot of information out there and help and I really recommend that people take up that help. There's all sorts of support out there. I obviously provide a particular service, but there is counselling out there. There are family lawyers, there are financial experts because there can be a lot of financial abuse and forensic accountants. You know, the list goes on, get the support because you should not do it alone. You really shouldn't. And I've got two burning questions for you. The first one is how has it changed the impact you can have from doing law to the job you're in now? Is there a difference for you? Absolutely. So this all connects quite nicely. Was attracted to being a lawyer in the first place because of that sense of justice and helping and advocating for somebody's rights. Now, yes, it was Ned Kelly as a mock, as a mock trial, but you know, that to one side. That's what really ignited me. Now, my career has been great and I've had some really excellent experiences and I've learnt a lot and you are advocating for people or for an organisation, but it really is different. It really is different. So, you know, like I said, with the Bush Fires Law Commission, I got back into that space where it was real issues and real people. And now in this space, that's where I am again. And that's what really, I'm really passionate about helping, you know, women, it is predominantly women in this space because it's so tricky, it's so confusing, it is insidious and people don't really understand it. So, you know, I can't tell you the people that have shared stories and I said, "Oh, so, do they do this next?" And they've cried. And I said, "Oh, God, sorry, did I say something wrong?" And they're like, "No, you understand." Yes. And that means the world to me because it's the giving back and helping women in this space. So, it still has a bit of a, you know, the advocacy and the sense of doing what's right to it, but it's really personal to people and helping people in a really important way. And that's what ignites me. And to think that you have that 15 years of law behind you is phenomenal. I've actually now got an extra question because when you just said then about women, do you also work with men or at the moment you're just working with women? So, it has only been women. The statistics are and all the research shows that it is predominantly women that are the victims in these situations. The research also shows, sorry, that men are victims, but it is more often than not in same-sex relationships. So, again, the perpetrator is a man. But it's not to say that it doesn't happen in female-female relationships and other LGBTQI situations. It does. But at this point, it has all been women. Yeah. Okay. And my last question is what haven't I asked you? You know, because this is your area of expertise. Is there something that you'd like everyone to know that I haven't asked you yet? I would like the people who are listening to this. If this resonates with you, it's resonating for a reason. So, trust that. Things don't resonate with you because it's wholly irrelevant to you. So, please listen to your intuition, your gut, whatever you might want to call it. And please know that there is support out there, no matter what your circumstances are, there is support. And there's a way through it. And I really, really want people to know that. They are not alone because it can feel so isolating and it can feel like you are losing your mind. Mm-hmm. They are the two words, isolating and losing the mind that I absolutely hear all the time in this space. Yes. So, how do people reach you, Mia? We'll put it in the show notes if anyone needs it with a few extra support numbers and places to go. Yeah. But how do they reach you? Absolutely. There's a few options. I offer a free 15-minute consultation. You can book in through, you can access it through my website or through Instagram. So, Instagram is greyrockconsulting1word and the website is www.greyrockconsulting.com.au. So, you can book in, have that free console and we can have a talk about what's happening for you and how I can help and support you. You can also reach me through email, which is
[email protected]. Perfect. Now, we have had some heavy conversation today. Like I said at the beginning of the podcast, it's just a conversation I was so excited to have because it's such an important conversation that often, you know, it's the starting point for someone to go, "Oh, actually, that sounds really familiar." Or, "She understands, or I'm not alone." So, I really hope if you're out there, you've got tips on what you can do or what you can say or do for one of your beloved ones or a friend that you're talking to if you feel like they're in this situation. To end the podcast, though, I do love to ask, this is much lighter. Is there something in your life that really makes you belly laugh? Oh my god. I can't believe you are. So last night, nowhere to rely, last night, I was talking to my children about when they fought and that, you know, fighting actually doesn't get you what you want and it weighs a lot of energy and you're hurt each other sometimes and we're having that conversation. And as I said that about wasting your energy, my elder said to me, "Oh, gee, I'd hate to see my youngest electricity bill." And I went, "What? What do you mean?" And he said, "Oh, well, because he weighs so much energy." And I almost cried laughing because I just did not expect it from him at all. And I was like, "This is the funniest thing I've heard and maybe that's just being a bias mum thinking he's hilarious, but I really worked up laughing." I love that so much. And I actually, my first thought was, "How can I flip that into a, I'm going to get people to do that, like I'm going to get the physical energy."
draw out the amount of energy and electricity that you're using on something. I'm not going to use to. Well, there you go. That's from an eight-year-old. So I was cracking up. So look, the two of them cracked me up regularly, but that's funny you asked that because that literally happened last night and I was in tears laughing. And I just want to really say thank you from the bottom of my heart for taking the time today. And I hope this is one of many conversations that we have along the way. I'm really excited to see you grow in your business and I just, as you know, I've already referred a couple of people in and I hope that I can keep doing that and I'm just so proud of you and what you're doing in this space. I wish you were around when I worked in the industry. We needed someone just like you. Thank you so much and I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me and for me to get the message out there because I feel it is everywhere and I keep seeing it everywhere. So I really want people to know that this support and this service is out there and I really would be absolutely privileged in order to help anyone who's in it. I really would. As mentioned in the beginning, we will be bringing experts on every few episodes. I would love to get your feedback on this episode. Did you find it useful? Was it eye-opening? Did it resonate for you? You can comment in our Facebook group, Challenges that Change Us or DM me personally on Facebook. Likewise, if there's a topic that you would like me to get an expert for, just reach out and let me know. Me and mentioned a few great resources after we finished the episode. She talked about Rebecca Zorn, Dr. Romani, the 1-800-Respite number, which is the National Sexual Assault Domestic Family Violence Counseling Service. We will add all of these plus more support services in the show notes. If you are currently living in an unsafe or controlling environment, I want you to know that there is help out there. I know it feels like you're alone right now, but you are not. There is a whole support team waiting to work with you. Otherwise, I really look forward to next week's episode and I hope you all have a fabulous week. Thank you everyone for listening and taking the time out of your day. I believe we can learn so much from connecting with other people's experiences and stories. I hope you've gained some strategies and insight from today's episode. You can gain more by joining our Facebook group, Challenges That Chained Us. On next week, we will return with another episode.
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