#13 - Jack Kruse

Hello everyone and welcome back to the Undoctrinate yourself podcast today. I have a very iconic guess for you That you've heard me bring up multiple times and it's really just an honor to have him on the show it's Dr. Jack Cruz and He's coming to us from El Salvador right now, which is an hour behind me and Just told me about this incredible meeting. He had a sunrise meeting that went over to just now which is amazing and So for those of you who don't know I mean, I honestly don't think Dr. Cruz Cruz needs an introduction, but Dr. Cruz is a neurosurgeon and Kind of has been really going against the standard Medical model over the past you know, I could say over a decade, but really just started being more vocal about it with Dr. Huberman and Rick Rubin on Rick Rubin's podcast which I would urge you all to go listen to that on Tetra Graamiton That multi-part interview with many hours. It's well worth it very compelling But other than that, I just want to start by saying welcome Dr. nervous Don't be nervous. I don't bite I've seen you bite a couple times But that's that's for different reasons. I doubt that we're I'm gonna buy you Okay, incredible. Yes, so maybe I can just start by just giving you a little bit of background about me Just to frame the conversation and then you can kind of see where I'm coming from when I'm asking certain questions but then we can dive into you know your science and what you're passionate about and what you're interested in right now But I did my PhD at Princeton and molecular biology and then I started a business Working with clients in the health optimization space and then I started a postdoc at UP and a microbiome lab But I should say my whole time in academia I've kind of always felt like an outsider and I've had big problems with the standard medical model since I was a kid because it's just burned me so many times And so I always kind of went into this direction as more of a Like a dissident I would say and just trying to see how this model's working so that I could then Kind of undo it by its own hand And so that's kind of where I'm coming from and I know you also share a lot in common with that as you described in some of your other podcasts You kind of had an awakening Gosh how long it was it now like 15 years ago or more? It's almost 20 now. Yeah. Yeah, so I mean if you want to just share briefly about that and then we can kind of talk more science stuff I don't know what direction you want to go, but it's kind of funny that we're talking about this because a lot of this is kind of what my meeting with Henry was just about I Think If it was five or ten years ago the way in which you just described me I would be okay with I don't know if I'm okay with it That's the truth me told Thinking about what I said this morning We're not the dissidents the dissidents of the paradigm over in and That paradigm is unaware of their own don't incur a moment, but where quite aware and that is the interesting part of it So I said something this morning Partially because of what Shantelle it said she said the thing that got her Listening back to me after going through my training. Just you know, she was with me in my training as my operating room Most then that's when I was learning brain surgery with a scalpel what I do now for the last 20 years is the other side of the coin It's brain surgery without a scalpel and I said to Henry this morning. I said just so you understand I've always had the beliefs That to be a neurosurgeon it required The things that I learned in residency and all that but I realized After doing it for probably five six seven years that there was 50% of the audience That really didn't need my skill set There's always going to be people that need brain surgeons to do brain surgery But there's a lot of other people that actually need brain surgery without a scalpel and I could not help those people And I think the journey the environment sculpted me to actually realize That I needed to add something else to my arm and then it turns out I Traded the scalpel in for the I guess the flip side of the coin for light water magnetism because that's fundamentally What the scalpel is for decentralized medicine? So I would say it to be a full scope neurosurgeon. I think you need One side of the coin to operate and I think you need the other side for the people who you can help that don't need an operation They may need an operation and their environment. They may need an operation in the way they think they may need an operation And you know how they deal with people in their network people, you know in their families their friends I mean that's effectively what the three hour meeting with Henry was just about it was actually All about brain surgery without a scalpel, you know, and he told me a story the reason I guess we're starting this way He plays pick-a-ball every Thursday with a 76 year old surgeon here in El Salvador He still does three surgeries a day at 76 and he does that he plays tennis racket ball and golf Because he's read studies that show that if he does these things that he won't develop neurodegeneration because that's what he's worried about Because he likes to operate so in other words, it's like his decentralized loop So that he can continue to do what he's doing when I sat down with Henry I decided I said Next time you meet this guy Ask him what does he do for the people that he can't help with a scalp in other words be provocative and I think That's kind of what I now I deal with people Different like for example in your previous life with you were the molecular biologist and the microbiologist You know working on the microbiome and you came to this with a very centralized mindset I would probably be like a drill sergeant But you kind of like I am a Peter a tear or or you remain or those types that have More of the surgeon mindset or the centralized science mindset why because you have to crack that coconut in order for them to see the Manna that's inside the coconut and That's kind of what happened in my life when I got The drill sergeant Approach it wasn't from another doctor that gave it to me was actually from life life actually dealt with it and You can never have a bigger punch in your mouth Then when you get it from your own health Why because you realize what the implications of that implicitly like no one needs to tell you because it's always Resonating in your own head. So then you have two choices to to deal with that or you just ignore it and go on and live your life If you know 80 years going around the Sun like everybody else does or you actually think about Ways to be able and otherwise you'll hypertrophy circuits in your brain That have been atrophy because of what you've learned and that's kind of what I did and I did to myself and I told Henry this morning I said the most disruptive time in my life Was the time in which I changed that's the reason why a couple days ago on Instagram I showed people a picture of 23 and 24 I said you need to embrace mistakes Embrace the suck and brace chaos because that's actually what's gonna matter more for size you into the butterfly that you can become And I began to realize this morning that this story for the last five days That started with that post to the butterfly Actually was about this story now you bring this up and it's resonating again. How do people begin to change their life? My opinion from my perspective is it begins with thinking and I think when you change the way you think about things even bad things in your life Then you can come up with a game plan of actually how to deal with it and that's actually what showed me the other side of the coin of Brain surgery without a scalp. I would have never thought you talked to me 20 years ago But I could actually help people without a scalp if you if you know, I tell some of my brain surgery friends This I mean right now I can help people in all continents of the world. I couldn't do that when I was a neurosurgeon back and That's the same thing I would tell the surgeon here and I'll solve it Like you're helping the solve of the rain was out here do the three surgeries a day But what about the people that are in origin? What about the people on show you? What about the people on Australia? See the promise if you don't think that you could ever reach those people guess what your thoughts are right? You never will and I didn't Reel until I started to put some of these ideas out there and like for example it sounds like Your world's collided with my world because of what I do at Rick and with the environment because some of the things you heard there You go wow. I have never heard anything Kind of like this. It's a totally different perspective. It's not a perspective. We get in science and then you get interested okay The concepts that you brought to the table are interesting enough How the fuck did he figure this out? You know to me That's that's the most fun part of the story that's actually how the conversation that Rick wanted to bring to you But he wanted you to know the endogenous way in which I came to this perspective why because I think he really I use his friendship with Andrew a lot. I realized that right away when I was doing it. I think Andrew thought I was coming in there to be the drill sergeant with him. And there was times in the interview that I was the drill sergeant with, but there was times that I wasn't. I was actually being really provocative with him so that he would go down pathways that he didn't even know existed. You know, like there's doors in your scientific world that you haven't even thought to open yet. And to me, that's really cool for a scientist. It's cool for a clinician because you know, in residency, we get taught these are the doors. This is what you go down. This is how you get good at this. And that's what I would tell you is a PhD. You know, PhDs know a lot about a very small amount of things. To me, you're not, you're a specialist. You're not a generalist. And if you really think about way nature works, like brain surgery without a scalpel requires you not to be a specialist. In other words, it requires you to hypertrophy and parts of your brain, which are now at atrophic because they had to be atrophied so that the parts for the other side of your life, when you're doing aneurysm surgery or AVM surgery, or you know, complex spine surgery or moving a spinal cord tumor. The other stuff, you don't want your mind cluttered with, oh, well, this person got this problem because they live in, I don't know, San Diego, California. And this and that, and you know, if they would have listened to me, they would have never got this tumor. No, that's not what can be in the neurosurgeons mind. When you're taking an appendimoma of someone's conus mention like, no, no, no, no, no. And I said to him, and I'm says to you, the incongruity of what I just said, of brain surgery with a scalpel and without a scalpel, to me, that is the most exciting, passionate thing about my life, that I have embraced, the biggest embrace the suck thing that you potentially imagine in science, where I have to embrace the centralized and the decentralized aspect of science and then merge them. And the way in which I'm merging it, I know that the audience out there may not agree, but remember, I don't think there's too many other people that are attempting to do what I'm doing. And I've come to this ever since I was a little boy, I've told Henry how it started. If you think that I ever knew what I was 10, 15, 20 years old, that I'd want, 60 years old and I'll solve it now, know what, and I think the reason why it happened is because I live every day in the present moment from that time, that 18 months where I realized that everything I learned to be a brain surgeon with a scalpel, was pretty much sort of running away and rejecting the suck and the chaos. I embraced and said, I need to think about this a different way. I need to read tool of my brain to understand the concepts that I now know to be true and how do they missense with my previous life. See, people think kind of like you frame my introduction, that I'm against my previous life. I'm gonna tell you, I can't be who I am right now without my previous life. That is the stepping stone to get through the next layer and I tell people that this is like an onion and earlier provides a different nuance. It's almost like when Picasso paints his painting or Monet paints the painting, there's layers of the colors and you can appreciate the whites and you can appreciate the yellows. But what I'm doing, I'm trying to get you to take the 80,000 foot view of how all the points layer on and be able to travel in each layer. In other words, see the painting as a whole, but then go in and look at all the whites. Look at the nuances of life. Look at how the shadows are painted. I go into the picture and look into your life, look into your right, looking up, looking down and understand what you're seeing. It's almost like a Da Vinci code of the way your neurons are working. How does this all make sense? How do you take the pieces and parts and make sense of the whole? That is how you develop the decentralized part of your mind, the decentralized part of science and when you realize the inherent beauty and you see how like art, culture, science, relationships, friendships, people, how it's the same way. You get a different perspective. You start, you start to realize that you're firing on different ones. In other words, the Dr. Nell Salvador who plays pickable tennis and golf is doing his way to spreading centralized skills. What I'm doing, I do that, plus I do this. Why? 'Cause I wanna develop heads and tails on my coin. I don't just wanna be one, I wanna be both. And then I want you to know how heads and tails connect. - I mean the heads and tails, I'm like that's perfect. - And analogy, decentralized. - Approach too, because you have like the light and the dark and you need both in order to have a regulated biological system and it's just striking me how sad it is that the centralized model, I mean, obviously there's a time and place for it. There's a context for everything, but like the limitations that the training for that model puts on your abilities as a practitioner are just immense and they're basically robbing you of the opportunity to help more people. - I'm gonna tell you, you need 'em, but I think that we spend too much time in training, especially like medical school residency. I would say even in your world, as a PhD, I think you guys spend too much time also developing that way. But you need some scientists. You need to learn about the scientific method. You need to learn about trials. Because think about some of the things that I've actually said about trials. I said this to Andrew and it kind of stops you getting your trials. In medicine, the gold standard is a randomized control clinical trial. Realize that that's an idea based in an attorney in the world where time is absolute, right? Because when you think about it, randomized control trial implies at its very core, there's cause and effect. Turns out now we know in an Einsteinian world where time is relative, it's impossible about cause and effect. Who proved that? Heisenberg. That's the uncertainty principle. Everything's based on probability. But yet, how do we study things in science? Everything is based on randomized control trials, which are cause and effect. How many times have you had guests on or done thing? Well, this is correlation, not causation. That term is pseudo-scientific. Why? Because that's not how nature works. But when you say that to somebody who's in the centralized paradigm, like when I said it to Andrew, you can see is like head exploding. Because that concept is so different. And people ask me all the time, how did you do this? How did you come to realize this? I said it was pretty simple. I said, I looked at Newton, I looked at Einstein. I said, Newton was the guy for 500 years. Einstein came along with this radical idea and proved time-relatively. People want to sit down and parse out what that Einstein really do. If you want to know what I've just told you, I've distilled down really why Einstein should be famous. He's not famous for this in physics, but he should be. He actually told all doctors, you need to blow up your paradigm. Your paradigm is completely wrong. But the reason why that paradigm is stayed in places because of Rockefeller, Flexner, and Big Farmer did a business out of centralized science. And the problem is when you have centralized science or PhDs, and they're only operating in Naderina, and they never embrace the other side. What I'm saying to you is once you go through and get your PhD, once you go through and get trained, be once you go through and get your residency training, is there a rule in your thesis or a rule when you graduate residency that says that you can't start to hypertrophy the other side of your brain? No, you know what it's like? It's like the way they train elephants. See, when elephants are really little, they put a chain around their leg, and the elephant learns that a crazy thing is when the elephant is big, and it can rip the house apart, when the chain's on it, it doesn't even try. And see, they're in the problem with sensual-- when you spend 20 years of your life doing a PhD or becoming a neurosurgeon, you don't even try to use. And that's what I'm trying to tell you. I would love to tell you I was altruistic enough, and smart enough to embrace the essential outside. No, it took my own obesity to punch me in the fucking mouth to wake me up. And that's why I think what Rick was attempting to do with you was going to be his punching face. I was going to be the guy to wake him up. Why? Because some of the science that I bring, it's so basic and so common sense. When you see it, it's hard to unsee it. And see, on people will continue to reject it. That's where Pita Adia's now. That's kind of where I don't need to throw people under the bus, but that's where a lot of people are that you'll know or you'll have on the cloud banks. You need to know that as the interviewer, but when you see the other side and you ask them, look, here's the door. I just don't know. So do you want to go down or not? If they go down it, then that tells you something about that. Then I'm going to tell you they're real scientists. Why? Because everybody I know that's in science, you're in it because you're curious as fuck. You want to know things that other people don't know. You want to know why this guy is blue. You want to know why a tree does what it does. How can a tree make something completely out of thin air? Those are the kind of things where you sit. Or where does a baby really come from? Or what does trans-generational have to be genetics? Does this explain why people have autism and mental illness to them? You want to know these things. And they are complex. But fundamentally, the centralized paradigm is only like having one training wheel on the science bike. I think you have to have both. And when you have both, then you'd be able to see the many facets of how nature has really worked. Because there's part of nature that's hidden and part of nature that's obvious. We all look at the same tree like the trees behind me, the green. But what does that fundamentally mean? Why is the spectrum underneath the tree different than it is on top of the tree? What are the implications of that? What about life that lives under it? What about life that doesn't? In other words, it's optimized to different things. And you can't see the hidden and the obvious and make sense of that until you jump down this rabbit. It's like when you're in a museum, like I've always been drawn to artwork and didn't really know why. And when I became decentralized in my thought pattern, I actually figured out why it was. Because there was always something in the painting behind the surface that I needed to see. And the same thing was true in centralized science. And those are the reason why these things resonate with me. And I actually try to bring that out a little bit in the 10-hour podcast that I did with those guys. A lot of that, I think nuance, was lost to the cutting floor. But I also think that's part of the reason my Rick and I are friends because he understands the way in which I see things has a lot to do with an artist perception. Because I actually think nature in our own way is an artist. The way in which creativity and artistry is built into us is actually far different than not. But artists have a very unique perspective on how they see the world and how they decide to show it. I think PhDs, clinicians, they also have an artistry. You know how we always talk about medicine being both a science and an art. And that's why I don't think-- and when I was trying to explain to Henry this morning-- that I think we spend too much of our careers on the science part of our craft and not the art. And it turns out the art is the actual decentralized part. And I don't think it's in Congress anymore. I used to think it was. But when you described and introduced me, it just hit me when I heard you say it. And I think I know why you said it because you come from that world as I do. And that's just how we do it when we introduce somebody. We talk about their career that way. And when there's a career, path or change, you almost don't know how to describe it because it's unusual. And I don't think it's as unusual as you think. When you think about all the Nobel Prize winners, they all make you turns as well. Now, some of them go down pretty bad roads. Some of them go down pretty good roads. But they're ostracized by the centralized guys. Because they say, well, if you won the Nobel Prize, how much more is to do? I would argue that Madam Curie was the only one that's one, too. And I think you want to know the truth. That actually shows the failure of centralized science. You want to know the truth. I think that if we had more scientists that were both centralized and decentralized, we'd have more scientists that would win multiple Nobel prizes. Why? And if you think about it, people who win Nobel prizes usually have to be uncanny thinkers and take risks and do things that other people aren't willing to do, I think that you need to do that in multiple disciplines. I think not only that, when you do it in multiple disciplines, you're going to find out that disciplines that normally do not link, you'll actually find the link. And that is where the magic is going to happen. And I can tell you in my own life, that's how I look at it. Some of the things that are going on in my life right now, it's almost hard to fathom, what 2024 is going to bring to my career is something that I never-- when I talk about atrophy, probably the most atrophy part of me, politics, getting ready to kick down a door that I never thought was open in any of my rooms. Like, if you ever thought what's going on with the scalpel and what's not going on the scalpel would lead to where the door that I'm getting ready to turn and open, not in a million years. And the reason I bring this up to you is because I want other scientists who listen to this podcast to understand that that I think centralized science makes us right-handed or left-handed. But I want people to do is realize, become ambidextrous. And then when you become ambidextrous, then use both of your feet. Then use both your eyes. Then use both of your ears. Use all your senses to actually put your powers of observation to the environment because then guess what? Then you're going to see the magic that Picasso saw. You're going to see the magic that Monasso. You may begin to understand artwork in a totally different way, kind of like I do. I look at artwork now. Like, I'm looking at some of the artwork that's in my house. I go through the surface into the painting and look. I'm looking for what was all the different things that went into this. And I like to do that in science. That, to me, is the key. Totally. And I feel like there's so much to see there, too. And a lot of the questions being asked just aren't good questions, and they're not based in reality. It's based instead on some weird mental masturbation or some incentive to get an answer, a specific answer to-- Get funding. Get funding. Or based on what's-- Yeah, let's get funding or make a drug. That big pharma wants us to make. And I understand that. I understand the conundrum that guys like Andrew are at. I understand-- we see, like, right now what we're talking about. I mean, we shouldn't dance around this. We see what just happened at Harvard University. See what happened with Stanford during COVID. We all have our different opinions on different things. But I'm going to tell you, when you see the world through a specific ideology, that ideology can become very destructive at times, even when you don't think that it is destructive. And I think this is what I'm getting at when I talk to you about how I view science. I believe that we have to destroy ideology. That's the drill sergeant part of Jack. And even I have to force you kicking and screaming to come to my level, which is kind of what I try to do with physicians, because I want them to know there's another side to this that is absolutely gorgeous and untapped. I want that 76-year-old doctor here in El Salvador to know that there's a part of his practice that he hasn't even tapped. And that will keep him away from Alzheimer's disease, because he'll be fascinated by what he found. It's not just about having the cortical spinal control with your thinking centers in order to take a tumor safely so that the person wakes up. Sometimes it is about that. But more often than not, you're going to find out that half of your patients don't need that skill set. They need the other skill set that your atrophy, when you're exactly the wrong guy for those patients. And see, I don't want anybody to be the wrong person. In fact, when they are the wrong person, I usually invite them to leave. Like, I am a very unusual surgeon in that endeavor. Some people come to me. They want my help. And I know that I can help them. But I don't extend them my hand. And this confounds me. Just happened when I was in Los Angeles. I did a podcast with Maria Manudos that no one will probably ever see for a variety of different reasons. And that's a shame in itself. But what happened after it, to me, was actually the reason. I realized this now. Why I did the Maria Manudos show. And I also think it's the reason why I'll never air. I met two or three people there that I knew that I could help and I think Maria knew that I could help. And when I told them what the help would be, they're like, "Well, I can't do that." I said, "Okay, I can't help you." And the most ironic part of that whole story was even somebody at the end of their life facing, you know, but Steve Jobs faced. They still cannot let go of the things that brought them to that problem. In other words, it's still too painful to face the truth. And here I am as the drill sergeant, telling you, if you want to survive the Titanic, you have to be willing to jump in the cold water, swim to the boat, get in the boat. It's kind of suck, but that's what you have to do. And then on the other side of that rainbow, you got a shot. You got a shot to write all the wrongs. That story is incredibly important. So the people that brought this person to Maria Munu's house, they're very famous people. And this was their friend. And the funny thing is some of the questions that went back and forth. I looked at this one person, I said, "Do you realize you are the reason why this stuff happens because of the things that you do as an influencer?" And when I was done saying what I had to say, because I just had to get it off my chest. The other person that was in the room who I don't even know who it was, but just a friend said, "Well, we. This may be too much to take in right now, but could we have, you know, your contact, your number so that we can deal with, you know, you later?" When I said, "No, he can't. I can't give you my time. You're not worth my time." And on the surface, that sounds like a pretty harsh thing to say to people, but I'm trying to explain to you, where did that gene come from and Jack? Because that gene isn't in the brain surgery with the scalpel Jack. Okay, Jack wants to help everybody, you know, that's got a tumor that comes to his office. I learned it from nature. Not everybody's design is survived. That's what extinction events are about. That's why things happen. And the thing is, when you know that the animal in front of you is incapable of changing, when change should happen the most, because you know that your time is limited, you have nothing to lose. Look, even Steve Jobs at the end of his life, he did things extraordinary to try to remedy the bad decisions that he made prior to that, and we all know by reading his biography didn't work. But he tried. Can you imagine the flip side of actually having the same type of fate, knowing that your time is, you know, dripping like sand for an hourglass, and still being fucking ignorant. And then saying, by the way, can you keep and hold on my hand while I sink below the surface? That's effectively what they're asking me. And I said, look, I said, I have a lot of people to help. I cannot help someone who doesn't want to help themselves. And I can tell you, as hard as this was for the people that were there in that small little circle, those five or six people. I knew what I was doing was the right thing, even though it was the wrong thing toward toward them. And the problem is I would have never got, I would have never got to that level. If I didn't understand and hypertrophy, the decentralized side of me, because that is why doctors are burning out now. And they don't realize it. I think that's the reason my scientists are burning out too. If you want to know the truth, I think that is the real reason. And the reason that I feel comfortable talking to you about it, you're a scientist that also changed her stripes. You know, most people say, we can't change our stripes. I think what this podcast is already about is actually we can't and we should, because when we do, we actually become a better scientist, a better clinician. We've become a better tool for patients to use because guess what, if patients are not willing to be a tool in their own recovery, that makes sense. You're not going to get better. Doesn't doesn't matter. You can be standing right next to the right answer. You don't have the thinking capability to make it happen in your own life. It's going to kill, you know, the healers that are around you, they're trying to help you. And the thing is, my time on this pilot's limited. You know, that's part of the reason why I value Rick, as Rick has always said to me, because Jack, what's inside of you, we need to get out, we need to be somewhere like in a library of Alexandria. That's why he's doing some of the things he's doing with me behind the scenes. He's like, this thinking ability needs to be in everybody who's in science. You know, when Rick says he's not saying this to be provocative, he goes, we don't know what's true. We really know in science. And he goes, and that's okay. Like when Rick says it, it's not controversial because he's a cultural icon. But when Jack says it, oh, he's a fucking lack of doodle, you know, and the thing is, it doesn't bother me to be the wacky do it doesn't bother me to be the quack. It doesn't bother me to be the guy with the arrows in his back because ultimately I know that this is the path that science has to take. They have to embrace like COVID was a blessing. COVID taught all of us that our experts are fucking idiots at the core. Okay. Guess what? We need the 50% of the population who still is trying to defend them to wake the fuck up because guess what? We're not moving forward until we learn from the era. And, you know, right now every doctor should be out there saying, look, we need to withdraw these vaccines from the market. They are not good. Even if they help 5% of the population, they're harming 95%. The date is clear. It's clear as a bell, except to the people who are invested in the bad science. And those people unfortunately are the ones that are in charge of the paradigm. But I keep telling people when people stand up, their game ends. Like when the public stands up, the people who who promulgated all this nonsense, their game ends and it's up to us to do it. And that's the reason why I think podcasts like this are important. Because guess what? People are going to come to this. They're going to think we're going to be talking about. I don't know pro-carriers versus you carers. But when they hear this discussion, they're going to go. This is actually the discussion that needs to happen because this is the reason why we keep making mistakes in in centralized healthcare, centralized science and centralized menace and. I don't believe that we should be okay with the status quo. I believe that we should not be okay with it and it should be perfectly fine for us to talk about it. Like there should be no no go zones. We should go wherever we think we need to go. And guess what? When we get there and we think, uh uh, this is no bueno, then okay, then then we course correct. And then we continue on the path that to me is really the scientific method. No, I don't I don't respect. Uh the randomized control clinical trial model. I don't I know that it's fraught with details and the proof that I'm right. And this is a hard swallow for the centralized scientists out there. The proof that I'm right if we spent more money on randomized control clinical trials in last hundred years. And what's the return on equity, modern chronic disease. In fact, we're more sick now than ever. So what does it tell you that no good is coming out of centralized science. This is the dagger to the heart to the guys like you, the dagger to the heart of the people at Stanford, the dagger to the heart of the Walter will it to the world that Harvard. They need to be taken out to the woodshed. This is where where Max Planck was correct that the best thing about science with people have bad ideas. They need to die. They need to have a funeral. Their ideas need to be buried with them. And I think some of the things that we saw with COVID, for example, Fauci retiring. You know, Collins making the admonitions that he just made that maybe maybe we did things wrong with Berks just said in her book, you know, they're all me a cop is saying I'm sorry, but I'm sorry he's not good enough. When you take people's fucking livelihoods away when you shut down the economy, when you make kids, meant more mentally ill for doing the things we did. No, that's not good enough. That's the reason why we need medical freedom laws. We need protection from fucking future idiots like that. Why because they try to shut down guys like me, Dr. Malone, Dr. McCullough, you know, Peter Corey, no, Dr. Malik, they try to shut us all down. And we still persisted. Why? Because there's there's part of us that realized that their view was unbalanced and it was up to us to give some balance. And then ultimately our audience made the decision. Were we really crazy or not? So maybe, you know, the age of acquiris from my to conventional medicine and decentralization, we're in it right now. Maybe that's why we're talking about what we're talking about. I don't know, but the one thing I do know is that if you embrace a total unbalanced centralized mindset, you are not going to be good for the public health and you're certainly not going to be good for a public longevity. And for you to sell yourself in that manner with a centralized viewpoint, like you have the viewpoint. taking a stat and taking a shot, you know, is a good thing to do in 2023. I'm sorry. If people believe that, they should get what they got coming. I'm not kidding because that's what nature tells us. People who think badly are going to be taken to the woodshed. Now, I'm going to warn you. I'm not everybody's cup of tea, but I'm for the people that say, you know what? What Jack is saying right now resonates with me. In other words, I don't agree with him on everything. I don't like the way he delivers things. I don't like the way he does things, but I understand why he thinks the way he does now because he's explaining what it's like to be inside of a cage like an animal when you know that you're designed to roam. You're designed to walk the tectonic plates and be in the sun and go sniff other dogs butts and go lick on them and kiss them and be a dog. You know, being a human is not what we've built in centralized science. We're not designed to be inside. We're designed to do what I'm doing with you right now. Sit outside at the 13th North latitude at, you know, 10 o'clock in the morning in the sun and talk about this kind of stuff. That to me is what really matters because ultimately it's the crazy mofos in the world that change the world. It's not the people that embrace the status quo that change the world. And some of those people that embrace the status quo need to get the fuck out of our way. Absolutely. And I mean, it really fills in a lot of ways like the science quote unquote has replaced religion in our society. And I mean, you don't, it's just another form of dogma essentially. And then if you view it through that lens, everything that it's doing makes sense because it's all just based on faith and not based on science or like a real scientific method or even just reality itself. It's completely twisted because it's trying to adhere to a specific dogma and paradigm that it believes is true. And you know, it's, it sucks that it has so much power over people. But I totally agree. Like having conversations like this is the most important step. And then having those medical freedom laws. And I mean, it's insane that that Nobel Prize just went out for the mRNA technology. It's just very discouraging, but that's a centralized is a centralized organization. See, when you realize that, then you begin to realize what Feynman said, this is one of the things about Feynman that I revere. He didn't want the Nobel Prize. He actually wasn't going to go to Stockholm. He wasn't going to take the money because he said, this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. And the funny thing about Feynman, there was a lot of quirky things about his personality that he probably be canceled these days like David Sabotini is right now because of some of the things that he did. But at the same time, his mind, the reason my science reveres him is because he embraced the other side. He's the first scientist with a Nobel Prize that I can tell you that it did, I think, what I did. He took a year off to study biology. Think about that. The greatest physicist of his time said, I'm done with these assholes. Let me go and see the biggest mystery in the world and see if I can make some sense. To me, that is a wonderful thing. I think that's what we should do to doctors. Like when you're a neurosurgeon, we should make you go to Paris and learn how to paint on the top of Sacred Core. As crazy as that sounds, you may find out that you become a better doctor when you come back as same thing with scientists. I think that's the reason why some of our friends, some of our peer group, the people that around you, I think scientists who listen to some clinicians who listen to this, embrace people that are not doing what you're doing. Embrace people that are totally different, that have a totally different mindset. Sit down and have a glass of wine with them and see how what you do and they do connect. Because when you see that, I've done this with guys, I'm thinking about one of my contractor friends back in Nashville, Danny Guy. I told him one day when he was remodeling my bathroom, how what he does and what I do in spine surgery is exactly the same. And he looked at me like I was crazy. But he actually loved the fact that I could see myself and what he does and that when he does things, it just gives you a new perspective. It's a new way to do science. It's a new way to practice medicine. And I don't think it's a bad thing. I think it's a good thing because ultimately, when you have that introspection, I think it forces you when you're faced with a clinical problem that you don't have an answer to, you dig deeper, you go harder, you start to turn over stones that you haven't turned over before. The things that you didn't learn in residency, like for example, how do you smell and in to fix obesity or how do you smell and in to fix an autoimmune condition? It's not about minding your mitochondria by eating food as some other people will tell you. Food gets you so far in the mitochondrial game. But ultimately, when you realize that that life at its very core is optical and photonic, then guess what? You got to throw the fucking biochemistry book out and go, how much do I really know about light? How much do I really know about electrons? How much do I really know about protons? For me, as radical as that sounds maybe to another neurosurgeon or listen to this, to me, it was absolutely the normal extension. And you know, a neurosurgery, I've told people this many, many times, I told Rick this in the podcast, but I think it hit the floor. Gazi, Azagil, and neurosurgery revolutionized neurosurgery in the mid 20th century when he brought the operating microscope in. What effectively did he do? He went microscopic to microscopic. What effectively am I doing that Gazi, Azagil did? The same thing, except I'm going from microscopic to quantum to electrons and protons. It's no different. The interesting thing is I'm telling people for me to get where Yoskel got, I need somebody to make me a goddamn photo multiplier so I can find out what the bio photon spectrum is of mitochondria during metabolism when we're using fat burning, carbohydrate burning or protein burning. Then I can actually be even a better doctor. But guess what? Hopefully some young kid who's 18 years old that wants to go be a scientist, listens to this podcast and says, okay, let's go build a doctor cruise needs. He needs a tool. He's telling us what he needs. Let's go build it. That's what Fritz Pop did in the mid 60s when he built photo multipliers and found out that every single living cell in minutes, extreme low frequency UV light, that should have been a game changer. To this very day, everybody in centralized science still has no idea what that means. That means a shame. You know, before I die on this planet, I hope the change that you want to know the truth. That is my goal. My goal is for people to go, stop fucking looking at RNA and DNA and look at this. Look at light. All RNA and DNA are is in antenna for light, a capacitor for light. You shouldn't be looking at the battery. Let's look at the light and then see how everything works. That's how we're doing. That's not how we study science. We're spending 99% of the NIH version on looking at RNA and DNA when we should be looking at mitochondria, which creates the light, transforms that I should say. We don't create energy. We'd merely transform it. That's effectively the game of life. It's about how do we transform the energy we collect from the outside, to the inside, to make a dissipative state, to make a cell do the things he does to stay far from equilibrium. We're never at equilibrium unless we're dead. But guess what? What about chemistry textbooks teach you and taught me? Oh, it's got to be at equilibrium. That's total bullshit. You know, we got another guy that want a Nobel Prize that actually for dissipative states, no PhD or Washington say no PhD, but no, no clinician learns about Ilya Pyrogene and what he found or Lars Anziger. How he figured out there was a fourth law of thermodynamics that is based on the quantum level. We don't learn about that. We learn about the three laws that started with Clausius and went through Carnot and then ended in Boltzmann and then that's it. James Clerk Maxwell had a lot to do with the second law and everybody got the idea of entropy and entropy is important. But what about enthalpy? No one talks about that and guess what? I'm interested in that. Why? Because that's what AMO physics teach me is about cells. It's actually the way it's constructed is the key to how it works with light. That means entropy is one side of the coin, but enthalpy is the other sign and they have to go together and how they go together actually defines the phenotype of the diseases or the health that we get. But nobody sees that when they open their Robbins pathology book. Nobody says, oh, so that's the reason why prior to 1986, Hashimoto's was considered a rare disease since 1986. It's the most common form of hypothyroidism. Like, those are the big questions. Like, how did all of sudden change? Because we know Darwin was wrong. Things don't. If Darwin was right, it should take millions of years for change to happen. And we know not ain't the way things happen. You know, autism was no big deal prior to 1940. Was never a paper written about it. about it. But guess what? Since 1940, it's done nothing become a storm in the people's asses since them. Why? Because the phenotype is growing, growing, growing. Ask yourself, why? What has changed from 1940 to now? See, those are the basic questions. Some of the politicians that are out there, monitor reiterated or point you to certain years. Maybe it's this. Good, but it's the scientists that need to answer those questions. It's good that certain people are pushing that way. Those are the people that I think in leadership that we do need. But no, we don't need people closing the book and say, you know, let's put Steve Mnuchin is the Treasury Secretary and let's do it the way Goldman Sachs does it all the time. We do that, we never get a Bitcoin. Then we get somebody like Senator Warren, who wants to shut the whole book and say, look, we just need to let Jamie Dheim and do it every once. That's fucking bullshit considering how these motherfuckers have wasted our money for 10 or 12 years. Why should every science just care about what I just said about money? Because you need money to do science. So if your money is worthless, how much better is your science? Horrible. So we need to realize that health and wealth are linked. The way we do science, the way we live our life, the way we practice medicine, they all need to be congruent with nature. And nature is fully decentralized. There is no central controller. Now when you begin to think that way, then your world expands. Then you become a, I think a better person, a better husband, a better spouse, a better father, a better friend, a better colleague, and everybody's going to get these different facets of your personality. Sometimes people are going to see that you're an asshole. Well, there's a reason maybe you're an asshole to them because you're really centralized. You know, when you're decentralized, maybe I'm not an asshole. Maybe I'll sit and do a podcast with you and we'll talk about something that I've never talked about with anybody else because it's clear you haven't opened mindset. In other words, what I'm going to say to you isn't going to offend you. You're going to sit there and go, I never thought about something like that. You know, where's that going to take me in my mind? The cool thing is, what's in your mind and what's in my mind, they should resonate. They're designed to connect. That's one of the special things about humans. That's why we have all our mitochondria buried in our brain, but we don't interact that way. Sometimes when we do podcasts, we're talking through the person, you know, instead of listening to what they're saying and letting it hit you, letting it reverberate in you, and go, I think, you know, in 2023, one of the things that I did that changed the game for a lot of people. So when I had that conversation with U of Rman and Rick, people thought it was going to be like all the other podcasts I've done. I'm like, no, this was three dudes sitting in a room just talking about shit. And Rick's goal was simple. I want you to get you to understand kind of how you see the world at a very fundamental level and then let him figure it out from there. In other words, don't tell him what to see. Let's see what he does with it. So far, it's almost a year. It's almost a year from the day. I don't think he's done too much with it. Some people may say different, you know, that he's talking about light, whoop more, but he's still having too many people on the podcast that are wholly decentralized. And I'm okay with them. I haven't having those people on, but I want to see the questions that he asks them to evolve. The questions are very centralized. And that tells me that maybe he's not willing to go down that path because of the things in the situation that he's in. Maybe Stanford isn't the right place. You know, for him to do, I'm sure Stanford wants him because he's now probably raising more money for that institution than anybody else. Why? Because he's got the most famous podcast in science. And ultimately, maybe I think Andrew needs to come to the point where where Joe Rogan came when Joe Rogan got really popular and kind of replaced Twitter as the public square. He decided to go to Spotify. The problem is you go to Spotify. And then to me, Joe Rogan is a shell of what he used to be. He's no longer, you know, the edgy MMM fighter guy. Now, I think he's become more centralized because, you know, when you get the big paycheck, you have to fall into the corporate way of thinking about things. And maybe, maybe I think that you've already in that role that Rogan's in now. And maybe if he goes out on his own, he's going to realize that there's a lot of other people out there that will support him to do and talk about the science he wants. Maybe he's afraid to do that. I don't know. Maybe it has to do with something in his life. Maybe Rick knows that and maybe Rick is the one that's pushing. Because I can tell you one thing, I think that's really good about Rick and then Andrew being friends. Rick does things his own way. Everybody saw that on that Anderson Cooper interview when Anderson Cooper asked him, why did people pay you millions of dollars? And Rick's answer was classic. And it confounded Anderson Cooper. When I watched it the first time, I actually told Rick this story. I just laughed. I said, bro, that's the reason why me and your friends. And fundamentally, when you see the world different from the paradigm and you reward it for it, Rick is the reason why I persist. Why? He's the same age I am, got the same problems I have. And he has been a game changer for his industry. So I look at it if Rick can do it. Why can't Uncle Jack do it? Now, totally different paradigms, but think about how Rick started. He started with people that had no voice in music. And he gave them a voice. And he did it sometimes through sheer will. And what did he do when he married, you know, DMC into Arismith and brought two in-congress and things together, the world saw for the first time that these two worlds do mesh. And they mesh in ways that we never thought and what happened through that creation. That's Rick's genius. And I see in Rick, what I'm trying to do, centralized and decentralized medicine together. Why? Because I think the next step in the evolution is going to be a positive return on equity for the humans that decide to participate. See, that's the cool part. You're not going to be forced to do things in the system that I want to build. You're going to be a participant. And if you decide not to participate, you will embrace the suck in your own way. Just as doctors will embrace it. This is going to be a very different paradigm in medicine than people think. But ultimately, it's going to mimic what I just watched today with Henry, the Falcon swimming over the top. And me pointing out to Henry, why the Falcon was doing some of the things he'd done tied to the physics. And we sat there and we watched it. And we watched it. And then I pointed out to him, I said, Henry, look when he puts his wings on. That big huge wingspan of six seven feet. You notice that the top side of his wings are all melanated and the bottom side is white. I said, that's actually how he's getting power because remember, he's going to get a fish, but he hasn't got the fish yet. So he needs the energy. He's using solar power to get the other stuff he needs. The story is right there when he dives into the water and he's unsuccessful. Why does he swim in circles or fly in circles? Do you send triple force to get rid of the water from his wings? Because he's not as effective predator when he's weighed down by the mass of water. But he goes in circles. Why is it that he's on one side of the pond and not this side? I said, look at his shadow. He knows the fish can see his shadow. So he stays on one side because the sun rose later in the day. He'll he'll hunt the other way. And Henry looks at me and he goes, you see all that. I said, how do you not see it? See, this is the key. That to me is what you should pay for. You pay Peter, add you to $250,000 a year to see the centralized part of science. You only have to pay me $5 a month on Patreon to see the other side. That's it. That's to me how it should work. Then you can marry the two. But but realize some of the things when Peter steps on my deck, I'm going to tell him, no, you're wrong. longevity isn't built best by taking a job or using stats. It's not best by using neurotropics and supplements. It's better by optimizing light, water and magnetism. You can still do a lot of the stuff he does. Some of the things he brings to the table, I have zero problems. But the things that I have a problem with, I have a duty that I took in medical school that I think I know better than them. So I'm going to step up for my try. My tribe and then decide whether I'm the crazy Wacaduto and if I am you just turn the channel like you do in Twitter You mute somebody or block them right? That's decentralized networks one one one It's perfectly fine, but I Don't want anybody to think that the centralized way is the only way because that's not true Yeah, I mean, I think a lot about Why the centralized paradigm is so successful and in a lot of ways it's probably because people are so depleted because they're living these indoor lives They're you know, not getting the sunlight. They're not getting maybe they're getting excess Duturium from their foods or you know, living their life in a way that's not conducive to a human being and now they don't even have the energy To necessarily think for themselves to the extent they would have otherwise and now they just want a daddy to tell them what to do basically Instead of actually thinking for themselves and having the personal responsibility I think you just hit the nail on the head, but you have to realize that the paradigm learned about this power If you subtract any animal from its wild environment, you'd be able to control them and we're controlled for the prophet to your purpose Until you get that fundamental Basis you're not gonna you're not gonna open the doors that you know, I showed you know to you to you to you for me and to Rick You know Rick happens to be my friend that You know back when he was a train wrecked he was open to the doors that I showed him and he changed his life You know now he's designed master now people like Rick. Why do you do this and the most beautiful part about Rick It'll probably be mad when he listens to this this podcast But I always say to people in podcasts, you know, I don't have to teach hippos and lions quantum mechanics I have to teach humans up because you have two frontal lobes that break the rules Rick actually is a hippo and a lion. He does not want to know the science He's like tell me what I'm supposed to do as a wild human and I'll do it That's it and ultimately I think in your life when you get to the point Where you realize that nature does have the answers for us and that we just need to pay attention to her and get out of the way That your life changes. I mean because it's what you said all of a sudden you're thinking becomes better if you guys think That Rick is not a good thinker read his last book that he just to tell me when you just read two or three chapters and you go The insights and the way he put these ideas was so simplistic Yet that's the reason they resonate why? Because he's optimized his own dopamine. He's optimized his own acetylcholine. He's optimized his melanin He's far better Thinking now than he was when he was becoming a culture icon where in sunglasses are me in 400 pounds at four o'clock in the morning and to me There's a lesson That he's teaching and it's the same thing with me. There's there's a lesson You know everybody thinks In the centralized paradigm that go into the gym and oven big muscles is you know the idea for longevity and for health Turns out if that was the case tell me why all these young men that are physically fit or drop in debt from the job Tell me because shouldn't they be resistant because remember what the narrative was during COVID? You know fat fox or dying and people that are doing this and doing that. That's not true anymore. It's not Fact centralized solution is killing the most fit people Explain but I want to hear the p to add ease of the world explain this to me or or the Andrew Uberman's put somebody on a podcast to talk about that like why is that happening? Don't you think that that's a fair scientific question now? Totally. I mean, it's an elephant in the room for sure. Right and people people don't want to talk about it and I want to talk about why the baseline cancer rate for the 20th century is like 0.23% now Since COVID in the jobs. It's 2.4% You know the guy on Twitter the ethical skeptic former Navy intelligence officers has been pounding this table for two and a half years Tell me you know he's not a doctor, but you know what? He's a data scientist and he picked up the mathematical signal in the models. How come Neil Ferguson in the UK didn't who's got a fucking PhD? How did he shit the bed so bad? But how did a guy on Twitter? Who's not an expert in Ferguson's field figure this out. I'm gonna tell you how you figured it out. He's decentralized He didn't have the preconceived notions of decentralized scientists Those are the people I think that people need to value. I hope when people listen to this podcast They'll begin to realize that you need to fire your experts in higher nature because if you do that You'll solve the critical point that you brought up It's how we think When we change the way we think We improve we get better we can start to realize there is a doctor in our own head that we keep ignoring And that's what wild animals based on it's called instinct They trust their instinct we don't why because we live in door lies and that reduces our mitochondrial capacity And then we have to think we rely on experts like somehow my former self knew better to avoid it at pandamoma Then just take it out. No, I'm gonna take him out back then. I couldn't tell you how to avoid it in a pen the moment In fact, I didn't want you to because if you did that what would I do? How would I take anything out? How do I pay my Mercedes payment? You know, we just had that discussion this morning at breakfast, you know shantel said to Henry about the 76 year old guy. Well, I'm sure if he would just teach people about this he'd be happy. I said knowing well He's totally centralized. He needs those people to keep getting tumors so he can take him out I said that's what upton Sen Claire taught everybody that when a man salad is based on What they physically do it they do a good job of misunderstanding things that Jack Cruz is trying to sell you That's the problem if you want to know the reason why I don't think we've seen the change so much from you run that's the answer right there That's my opinion may not be popular, but do you think I give a fuck no? And do I still think that you've been has a duty to the medical students? Yeah? He's a popular dude. He can do this without Stanford. He doesn't need Stanford. Just like Joe Rogan doesn't need Spotify You know, I said get two days ago in a tweet. I thought Rogan was a shill. Now, you know, I said it And now people have You know the full context of why I'm saying what I'm saying. I want people to be wild animals. I want them To be wild enough in their ideas to say you know what I'm gonna try to climb up this 45 degree wall I don't know if it's a good idea. We're gonna find out if I fall down and break my back then you know what then I'll learn lesson But you know if I'm successful then maybe I can invent bouldering You know, I have a friend that's a boulder or he's an amazing guy That's something I can't do. It's not a skill set. I have but guess what there was some wild human at some point said Let me do this turns out we can do it You know, I know we can do we have the capability to do it so when somebody says to me I want to do that I'm not gonna tell him as a doctor. Well, you know, don't do that because you'll probably fall down and get a subdural I'm gonna tell him where I'll make it you know and still try it. I Want people to do and try things To expand their brains to expand the way they think don't be afraid to make a mistakes in fact Embrace the mistakes The mistakes are gonna build the atrophic networks in your brain Yeah, I mean Bruce Lippton I think has a take on this where like epigenetically speaking every time you engage in like a new or novel behavior Activating a part of yourself that's never been activated before and that's like unlocking your potential in that direction And we just are so stuck in like a very rigid way of doing things and our modern society that it's totally like you said atrophying our potential Well, I think atrophine's a good thing, but I would look at it like this the atrophy circuit and here's the the decentralized idea the atrophy circuit has the power to perform the butterfly effect on the centralized circuit Think about that for a minute because then you'll start to go Jack just brought in the small non-linear effect can have a massive effect and that actually is what science teaches us You know Lorenz wrote the original paper in the 60s about climate scientists And how it works now Other scientists in every field have found that the butterfly effect actually is operational Everywhere like Claude Shannon founded John Wheeler found in physics It's found in biology Biologists are not fine like Michael Levin you know in Boston has found it in self-organizing systems that we actually organize From chaos think about how crazy is that self Organizations a big thing who was the guy that originally figured that out though it was Alan Turing in 1951 Here a computer nerd who figured out the enigma codes actually figured out the biggest problem in biology and for 75 years Nobody nobody went down the path and then all of a sudden the guy named Michael Levin comes on and says you know what? There's there's a couple of good ideas in here. I'll I'll want to examine this a little bit closer And you know, on that pathway, what got him in that path by reading Becker's books about regeneration, you know, and Becker's the guy that figured out that Albert St George, he was right Albert St George, he wins a Nobel Prize for the crebs cycle and he was wrong about the crebs cycle. But they still gave him a Nobel Prize and it was good that they did why not for the mistake, but because of what he said to medical students. This is what I try to get you from him to understand. I don't think he does. He went to medical students from 37 to almost the 60s and said, look at proteins, proteins had an electronic structure. They mimic what we're seeing in physics. They look like semiconductors. That's that was his big idea. You want to know why he deserved the Nobel Prize from that one observation because it turns out that observation was true and what little medical student heard that Robert Becker and guess what he did. He's the guy that proved it. Now we know we're filled with biologics semiconductors. So who am I the guy? I'm the guy that sat down with you, Berman and Rick and started to tell you how they work. So what I want you to do on him to do it. So St. George, you did as an MD PhD researcher, talk to those damn medical students to Stanford get some of those smart little fuckers to start thinking outside the box because there is no box. Stanford is the box. They want to keep you in that box. They want to make you secretary. I don't want you to be secretary. I want you to fucking room free. I want you to break through the Belmont things and and run in your own race. And I want you to be authentic and do the things that humans need. Not that Stanford needs not that Pfizer needs not that modern needs. Be what your species needs do you. I love that sentiment so much and regarding the butterfly effect, it just it reminded me and always makes me laugh about like p-values and the random cutoffs for like statistical significance and how that has no relationship to biological significance and we don't even really know what we're looking at when we're comparing numbers like that. Correct. And you know, find him in as the guy that I give credit to that because he's like math cannot explain nature. If you think that math can you've lost the purpose you just have to realize that math is the language of nature, but it can't explain it. And see that's a big disconnect for physicists. That's part of the reason why they've never unified their theories. Because they're not looking at the problem the right way that's and that even that's even Einstein's problem all the way up into 55 when he died. There's a reason that relativity and quantum mechanics don't job. It's the same thing that we started this podcast with two sides of the same coin. How do they connect the only way we're going to get a physicist to realize that. They have to look at the problem differently and none of them are doing that most of them are tied to the standard model. Some of them are tied to like what Wheeler did in the middle part of his career is about electro dynamic fields. And at the end Wheeler thought it was all about information his career spend three different generations of looking at science now he died not doing anything like find him indeed or Einstein did. But what did he do? He trained a generation of physicists and you want to know the saddest part in physics the way I look at it Wheeler was very much kind of like me where I'm trying to train future clinicians to ask the right questions turns out the physicist that he trained they're all centralized. I have done nothing to move the needle since he's died and that to me is a sad sad thing that that is the fate that I'm trying to keep you were men away from because you were men has the big bully pulpit. And what you find out about people is when they have power how do they use it and you know a guy like John Wheeler used it for the right reasons but even though he did things correctly his students never took it to the next level. I give Albert St George a lot of credit even though he was wrong because without him we don't get Robert O'Becker without becker we don't get to where I I could I can never do the things that I'm doing without the insights that becker gave me as a resident I would have never figured out the melanin story without beckers work. And there's so many different parts to this story and I have a reverence for those scientists that actually pulled me to the decentralized way why because I never get there without any of their work like Ilya pierra gene and dissipative states Lars on's a girl may when home Martin Chaplin and water. And Julian purport are some of these guys are dead now but guess what as Rick said to me goes Jack keep talking about them because we need the young people to know we need that library of Alexandria not to go extinct we don't need the dark ages and medicine like we got you know with the monarchy and what happened with the Muslims and all that bullshit where science they stagnate or how it was between new and in Einstein for 500 years we were stuck. And I actually think right now in physics where stuck since Einstein because the fundamental problem is no one understands how relativity and quantum mechanics link because I believe science is to centralized now science is too much like Richard Dawkins you said it beautifully earlier in this podcast when you said Dawkins doesn't even realize and you didn't say this but I'm saying this but I'm paraphrasing you. Dawkins doesn't even realize he's the most religious person out there yet he hates God and rails against God he is the Pope of scientism you know he talks about Darwin as a neo Darwinist Darwin is clearly wrong you know I always mention this to people jeans don't do anything jeans are just a magnetic strip that we keep the environment in the light environment and the dynamic fields that tell the genome what to do that's the real game changer because that explains why colon cancer went from 37th leading cause cancer 1900 to now second in the United States in 2024 people don't realize jeans don't change that fast it's actually the epigenetics that do and it turns out it's those bio photons made from mitochondria that do the changing you know they sculpt life remember when I say change transform I'm not talking about creating disease we are transforming stem cells to aliens and us that's what disease really is it's also the same process that drives evolution but it's evolution gone awry and until we realize you know that some of these guys ideas some of it's good but other we got to take away we're never going to graduate to Doug Wallace's way of seeing the world and remember Doug Wallace also another guy reviewer because he's the mitochondria man he's trying to get people to focus away from RNA and DNA Doug Wallace was a big proponent of the jab too you know so guess what even good people with good ideas can still fucking buy bad ideas and I'm sure I'm sure when I'm dead some young person who's going to be a doctor saying can you believe Jack Cruz believe this that's total bullshit now but guess what all science has half life that's actually what the scientific method tells us the question you have to ask yourself now is essential I science how much is published in the book is really true I said to you I said to you Berman is buddy Eddie Chang said maybe 50% I think it's more like 98% I think that we have a lot of falsehoods masquerading his facts and remember there is no truth because the truth is an approximation of what the data presents us right now that's truly what the scientific methods about it's about doing experiments and finding out is this really true like when you reproduce some of the trials that have been done on statins they're irreplaceable irreproducible now what does that tell you stands anything answer they're not because the environment from the 1980s now has changed so they don't work so why does everybody that walks in with a high dl get put on that maybe if you knew the reason why LDL is high because everybody's light trust because of the life we're living that's the real answer that's the answer big form it doesn't want you know why because statins have made the bulk of their earnings up to last 40 50 years since the 80s and when you actually look just at them is like say a part of business school test case then you answered your question earlier why is the paradigm built as it is because it's fucking profitable that's why and that's the reason why I always tell people the fiat system needs to be taken apart the fiat system is the reason why we have a lot of bad ideas and farm and I think when you fix the money we can fix the science why because I think when Bitcoin hits let's say because that's decentralized money let's say the next 10 or 15 years you're going to have guys like mark and recent come out and stop with the nonsense that he's talking now and it cuts well all of them people are going to start spending money the right way like I've got a friend who's got a lot of money who I'm trying to convince right now to do some really cool things here in El Salvador that's build a decentralized hospital and decentralized research facility that actually ask the questions we should be asking not the ones that fucking big farm wants to answer you know so you can build a business that's a big problem business. I personally believe that we make better people and keep them healthier. They become more productive to do amazing things. That's actually the best way to build the world and build it going forward because who knows what discoveries some of these people that we can reverse from say Hashimoto's or Vidaligo. You know, maybe Michael Jackson never really had a die. Maybe Michael Jackson didn't have to go and hire a doctor to put him asleep because he couldn't asleep. But guess what? The reason why Michael Jackson, we look at now as a freak. I don't think he was a freak. I think he died because of our ignorance. Because we built a world that a little boy who was Uber talented had to go in to do his song and dance and ultimately he killed them. And we don't want to look at the hard facts of that case. But he was always controlled and always had to do his gig on that stage that we do. That's kind of how I look at doctors now. Now I think doctors are doing the same thing. Michael Jackson, it was a slow way to suicide. Like a cage animal basically. Right. And I told you earlier, I used that analogy with me. The difference probably between me, Michael Jackson and young kids now that I want to kill themselves. I fucking like me some me. And I like this decentralized part of me. And I like being the drill sergeant. I'd like going and kicking the can and stirring the mix and letting people know that I have a lot of good mitochondria in my brain. And my brain can operate better than your muscles can in the gym because ultimately those muscles are not going to allow you to survive. But that thing in your head, when you can outthink the other animals, all I need to do is swim faster than you in the shark fin. That's it. Your muscles will encumber you because of the mass. People don't look at it like that. You know, when I give you those simple little things, like, yeah, why is it that babies who have their whole life in front of them? They're fat little goobs. But we don't think a fat baby is a huge problem. But we think fat humans are a big problem. Maybe they're thinking about that's wrong too. But you know what? Does anybody asking those questions? No, because everybody has to believe that, you know, big muscles and looking like a meathead is what we should aspire to. I haven't seen any data that says that that's correct. I see a lot of beliefs that that is correct. But no, I don't see any proof. Like I'll give you another example. Some of the people that that love David Sabatini, you know, about end tour and they talk about tour all the time. Those people are the transhumanists that are into calorie restriction. As calorie restriction, I've never been proven in primates. The answer is fucking no. So why do we keep fucking beating that drum? You know, it works and see elegans in worms that are simple, but it don't work in us. And it shouldn't if you understand how we're built. But guess what? We keep studying the stupid shit. You know, it's the same argument I make with Elon Musk. Why the fuck are we going to a dead red planet that has no magnetosphere when we know or magnetic field when we know that's not good for our species? Why don't we have a better plan? Well, I know what Musk would say. Well, we got to get to Mars to get somewhere else. Maybe we know maybe we need to get to the moon to get somewhere else. Maybe maybe there's a better plan. Maybe we just need to go to the asteroids. Maybe the asteroids are a better gig. I don't know, but I can tell you this. I don't think going to Mars is a smart move. Thermal dynamically at all based on what I've learned about spaceship earth and the living things on spaceship earth. You know, I think it would be far more productive to build a better world on the earth than think about Mars. But I understand there's every epic has their Vasco de Gamas and their Magellan's. That's probably what Elon Musk is doing. And no, I'm not going to tell him not to do what he wants to do. I'm just going to say that us as a population of humans, 8 billion people, we have a duty to tell our governments now we don't want our money spent this way. We'd rather, you know, spend on us so that we can figure it out while we're all sick. And let's fix that problem before we go to the moon. Let's get our priority straight. I just feel like going to Mars. It's kind of like putting the buggy before the horse makes no sense to me at all. And I know that this perspective, you know, some people have watched this. That's the boomer perspective. Boom boomers instead of, you know, these new young millennials. Okay, that's fine. It's your world anyway. You're going to pick how the fuck you want to do it. But you know what? My job is, it's just point out the fucking idiocy of your thinking. And then you decide what to do with it. You know, I'm not going to not going to tell you how to live, you know, the future of humanity. But I just think the future of humanity is going to push forward when we live within our biologic directive that's put down to us by nature. I don't think that's radical. Yeah, not to mention the fact that if we don't know how to treat earth properly, we're just going to go to Mars and destroy it anyways. It's the same way we're doing here. So we probably should figure it out here first. Correct. I mean, I couldn't put the cherry on top of that Sunday any better than you just did. Yeah, I'm totally on the same page there. And I'm also encouraged. I think that there's a lot of voices that specifically started speaking up post COVID. And I also agree that COVID was an amazing wake up call for a lot of people. We still have more people that need to kind of come to terms with the failing structures and models, I think. But ultimately that it was a gift and an amazing learning experience. Also just like completely horrifying at how many people went along with that whole charade for so long too. It's just I think a really important testament to like human nature in that way and groupthink and like the tribal nature of our species in a lot of ways. That's also a really important part. You just described Rachel Belinsky. She's still thinking it's a good idea, even though she's not in power or look at the world economic. Are about King Charles. These people, why they are trying to bring us back to the world that they want where it's futile is, you know, where monarchies control our large segment of population. That's what money is right now. They're trying to push us all to a CBDC because they don't realize the the plantation these days is economics. It's no longer a field where we're growing cotton. Now it's actually factories where you have shitty jobs, you know, where you don't make any money and you can never get ahead, but the people at the top, you know, the Bill Gates, the Warren Buffets, the Pope, Klaushwab. Those guys fucking do great. But the rest of us, we get thrown into the sausage grinder. Here's the cool part. This is what decentralized teaches you. We do podcasts like this. We all realize that we all stand up. They're fucking game. I'm an opley gets blown up. The the boardwalk, the houses, the dice, all the little pieces. They're on the floor. We need to blow them the fuck up. That's what decentralized, the decentralization does. That's why I tell people every time, you know, millennials, you know, your age group and below, they're pretty, you know, apathetic and nihilistic. This is what I tell them. I said, just give me a favor. You don't think voting works. That's great. You kind of of the Mark Twain of variety that, you know, they wouldn't have let us vote if it mattered. We probably have seen that several elections in the 20th century. But this is what I would say to you. Every time you buy Bitcoin, it's a vote against centralization. It's a it's a vote in the for turning where you're basically putting your middle finger up at the man. It's the reason why we got rock music in the 60s for Vietnam. It's the same reason why we got, you know, the Occupy Wall Street crew at the great financial crisis. You now are living in a time where you get to make that vote where you can say, you know what? I'm opting out of the fiat system that supports big farmers. I'm opting out of the I am opting out like Jack Mauler's perfect example. Just put a tweet out two days ago that I think was amazing. You know, he's not even 30 years old yet. He posted his bank account. He has zero dollars in the bank. Everything he's gotten house in Bitcoin. He goes, look, if not me, who he goes, if I'm if I'm the face of these apathetic nihilistic motherfucking millennials, he goes, then I need to show them in a tweet what I'm doing. I thought it was beautiful. Me to me, you know, Jack started this revolution in El Salvador by making legal tender law in two days. Uncle Jack may have something to say to Trump, the younger Jack Mauler soon. Why? Same idea. Different way, same idea, but guess what? What's the core that links both of those jacks? Decentralization, where did Uncle Jack get the ID and get some of the help? The other Jack in the story, the one I jacked, the one that nobody can figure out. That's Jack Dorsey. Also one of my guys. Guess what? He told me a long time ago because I asked him, what do you need me to do? He goes, help me decentralized the world. Why do you leave Twitter? Why do you give it to Elon? I can't do this. My board, hand strongly. What is he doing now? 100% full focus on what he's good at. What he's good at? Get going. What am I doing? Bitcoin, politics and medicine, all decentralized, all in one little to tee rope. How's that first following? I don't know. We'll see. I don't know what the future holds, but I can tell you this. I'm about the most optimistic person that you'll ever interview in 2024. I think the future's bright. I'm not a millennial. I'm more passionate about the future now than I was when I was 20 years. Well, I feel like especially as you develop your own or like find your own path and what lights you up, then it becomes inspiring and encouraging in a lot of ways versus, you know, as kids, especially with just the terrible freaking educational system that like just crushes these kids into cages basically and tells them what to think, doesn't teach them how to think and make them automaton for the system and totally make sense that you come out of that thinking like there's no point to anything like I have no power in this world, but like millennials shouldn't get mad at the world. She get mad at their parents. Yeah, their parents were my generation who had all the benefits, but guess what? What am I doing now? Trying to blow up the world that I took advantage of? All right, I'm blown up the world that I took advantage of. My nurse said that to me at least 10, 15 times for last five years every year. She goes, you're the only person I know that keeps blowing up things that work for you. There's a reap. You need to realize the reason is that decentralized mindset. And I think that no matter what your job is, whether you're a plumber, a truck driver, a guy that digs holes and puts plants in them, a guy that sprays geoengineering chemicals for, you know, Monsanto, or you're a Monsanto scientist. This podcast that we're doing right now, decentralization, how you think you can still improve the world. Even when you're doing bad things, you can still make it right because it's just like golf. When you hit a bad T-shot, that second shot becomes more important, just self-correct. And just because you're centralized and you're thinking party life doesn't mean you're going to be that way the whole life. Like, I think the guy who just died, Charlie Munger, who said that Bitcoin was rap poison. How sad is it that he lived to 99 years old and never saw the beauty of Bitcoin? Like, I think one of the guys who was one of my financial mentors that helped me do a lot of good things in my financial life, his name is Bill Miller. He was villainized on CNBC in the 1990s for investing in Amazon and Jeff Bezos. You know, and he would buy it at $1, $3, $4 to share. They'd have them on and they'd make fun of, basically make fun of him. And he would just say, okay, you're allowed to make fun of me because right now the results are what you said, but I'm telling you it's going to change. So when that world changed, now Bill Miller and everybody's like, dude, how did you see this when nobody else saw it? In other words, everything changed. You know, like we say in Bitcoin gradually and then suddenly, I actually saw that happen in my medical career while I was centralized and I looked at this guy, thank God I listened to him. And I thought to myself, am I making the same mistake in medicine? Like, that was, I remember sitting in the lounge at a certain hospital. I can tell you today because it was when OJ was in the bronca and they had had Bill Miller on and then they went to this and that segue of OJ actually got me thinking is Bill Miller right in finances and what can I do in medicine? I didn't listen to any OJ stuff because I could give flying fuck about it. But I thought to myself, is the same thing going on in medicine? What in medicine is Bill Miller like? And guess what? Those were the original seeds that got me. It took the obesity to really wake me up and I'm telling you, Bill Miller got it and he just used an unbelievable analogy for me especially because I used to be a big time baseball player. He said, do you know why Charlie Munger never understood Bitcoin? He said, I'm going to tell you the story about the 27 the Yankees, best baseball team in the history of baseball. You know they had Garrick Ruth Tony Lazari, Bob usual. He said in 1934 after the Yankees have won like 5, 6, 7 World Series with that group of guys, Carl Hubble steps on the mound and he's got a new pitch that no one's ever seen before. It's called the screw ball. He struck out six Hall of Famers in a row. Six Hall of Famers just so you know to this current day right now since 1934, no major league pitcher has struck out six Hall of Famers in a row. Bill Miller sat on CMBC goes that's Bitcoin. He used to be Amazon, he goes but now it's Bitcoin. He goes the reason why Charlie Munger Warren Buffett and all the people that you have on don't understand Bitcoin. It says Satoshi Nakamoto is wielding a new pitch when it comes to money and he goes, mark my words when it hits all of you guys will understand what I'm meaning. And when he said it, it resonated with me because here I am a former baseball player and I know that story. I learned about that story when I was growing up and to see a guy in finance take that lesson. Isn't that so much what I said to you before about taking something that you believe in sitting down with a guy who's renovating your bathroom and see what you do in their life? That's the exact same thing. When I heard him say that, I said oh that's good. That's really good. And this explains how decentralization and centralization can be melded in the same way because most of the big problems we have, I think it's science, medicine and physics, it's all about those things not coming together. I mean everything is a fractal in a lot of ways and there's the saying how you do anything is how you do everything and it's the case because you're basically activating specific neural pathways and then you're just going to use those because they're kind of ingrained in because you've been using them and then it actually takes some effort and energy to think outside of that box and see a new way. But once you do, like you said earlier, you can't unsee it because now those pathways have become activated and now you see it everywhere in all the different fractals that exist in nature or in society or finance or whatever it is. Bracks, I totally agree. I love that. I'd love to circle back briefly to you mentioned like muscle versus brain mitochondria and I've heard you talk about another podcast how you know we as humans store mitochondria in our brain and our heart and not necessarily in our muscle. And I just wanted to clarify something with you or I was just curious really. So I feel like that statement implies that mitochondrial biogenesis is a zero-sum game and I just want to understand why that is. It is because nature tells us that all energy is zero-sum game. You're just saying about we can't create it or destroy it. Doesn't that define zero-sum? Isn't that what the first law of thermodynamics is all about? But that's not how we view things. So let's look at let's let's make you clearly understand why I'm saying what I'm saying because I think this is really important, especially you know for the meat heads out there that think I'm wrong about this. We know from Doug Wallace's work that every decade we go up our heteroplasma rate goes up 10 percent. That's the science for 50 years that he's found in mitochondria. No matter what we do, no matter what interventions out there, that is programmed cell death. Okay. Everybody knows that's listening to this podcast. Nobody is getting off the spine alive. Okay. We're going to die. Okay. Everybody that listens to this is going to face a death. So that's the endpoint. So the key is if we know that we're losing 10 percent every decade, does it make sense to you to hypertrophy your muscles as you age when you realize it's a zero-sum game and you're a species that from an evolutionary standpoint locks it into one specific muscle and this. What happens when you put it here? Well it turns out we have a lot of good examples of that. I mean the ones that come to mind are bodybuilders and NFL players, none of them live long. In fact, modern NFL players, if you go talk to them, I'll give you a perfect example because he's a big winner. Go interview Russell O'Koon. He used to be an offensive tackle with the sea ox and the Denver Broncos. If you see him today compared to what he was before, he's a shell of his form and self. And the funny thing about it, you know why I think Russell does this and I guarantee if you talk to him, he's probably never put two and two together because he's decentralized in his money. He's like, why do I want to be Steve Jobs? Why do I want to carry all this muscle on the rest of my life? Like he is actually decentralized totally and I guarantee he's made some of these decisions without even realizing it because he's already decentralized in the way things. I would submit to you that people who view this the opposite way, they're very centralized in the way they think and they may not be centralized in everything that they think but they're centralized in more things that you want to know. And what am I trying to do to tell the audience that? I want the audience to know that. I want them to know if you let these people pack your parachute, how much else in the story are you missing? Is there another part or another door or another couple doors that they missed for you? And then I want you to think about the advice they've already given you, like these guys that espouse going to the gym and build big muscles. Are they the same guys that wrote New York Times best all of us that told you to take statins and told you to take the job that they were good ideas? I'll go to those ideas now three years after the book is written. You know I think it's kind of interesting when you see a guy like Paul Saladino who you know is psychiatrist, try to become a food guru, wrote a book about the carnivore diet and now he's changed his template. He's talking about honey and fruit and this and that. I had a couple of his minions here, not that long ago. And they privately told me, look, Paul's more about the light than you want to know. That's really why you moved to Costa Rica. And I said, that's great, bro. But how about you fucking says it? Yeah. Like, hitting into fights with, you know, a biolane on Twitter about fucking shit that doesn't matter. Because biolane is as fucking centralized as you can get. Yes. And that guy is a fucking danger to people. But, you know, I'm okay with that. Because if you listen to him, those are probably the people that need to get taken out in the way. I don't want the future world to be filled with people who think centralized. I think the future is going to be filled more with decentralized people. And I think we're going through the fork turning right now in everything. I'm talking about finance, economics, business, education, all the models, all the institutions that are out there, they're being taken slowly apart. And that's a good thing. That's not a bad thing. Like, I always tell people to embrace the suck. Like, I think what just happened with, you know, the Harvard president is a good thing. It's not a bad thing. I think some of the things that are going to happen in Ukraine actually are going to turn out to be good things. I think some of the things that have happened in Russia is going to turn out to be better than people think. I think some of the things that are going to happen in North Korea, some of the things that happen in China over the next 10 years, those things are all going to be good things. Like in other words, we're going to start seeing the Emperor truly has no clothes. And the only reason they've gotten the power is because the paradigms that were built around them prop them up and support them. And then people are going to realize when we become decentralized, we don't have to support it. That's part of the reason why I would strongly recommend you interview Russ Loku. He'd probably say, why do you want to talk to me? You should say, don't. If you listen to Jack Cruz said about you, he's got an insight about you that maybe you don't even have about yourself. But do I love the guy? Because he was a big corner. He got paid his last couple of years in the NFL in Bitcoin. He was making the statement to the young guys, kind of like I'm doing now with the young doctors. The all need to start thinking differently. Because guess what? The NFL owners are the new slave masters. They're fucking trying to kill us. And we're actively participating in that program. So we're trying to kill ourselves. How about we fucking get paid with money it's harder than they got. And then we do it in such a way that when we're done with the game, we get rid of the muscle mass that we're carrying around. Because it's thermodynamically inefficient. So that we can enjoy the Bitcoin that we made the last two or three years of our life. That story should be fucking put on a billboard somewhere for everybody in the NFL to see. There's very few guys like Aaron Rodgers is doing it. Say, Juan Barclays doing it now. I mean, the idiot in Baltimore. God, I'm blanking on his name. Model Beckham. He embraced it, but it's clear when he started talking about Bitcoin, he fucking doesn't understand Bitcoin. But is he doing what those other guys are doing? Because he realizes there's something to it. Yeah. But I think when you see the decentralized guys, like people made fun of Aaron Rodgers. You know, he just got into some big controversy on Pat McAfee show the other day because he talked about Jimmy Kimmel and the Epstein thing. But remember before that, what did he talk about? He talked about, I don't want to chat. Turns out he was smart like doke of itchments. And about, think about what Australia did to doke of itch. Then the next year they welcomed him back and bend their knee. We just think about that for a minute. Like you have to stand up and be unpopular when you're in paradigms that are failing. And what did Voltaire tell us? The most dangerous thing in the world is to be right when your government's wrong. I got news for you. That's the fucking reason I'm in El Salvador. That makes sense. That does make sense. I have one question about muscle. So is it the hypertrophy specifically? Is the problem or would you say like that? Because I know people will say strength and hypertrophy kind of move together. But I mean, I assume we need some muscle strength to be able to move because it's our voluntary organ. I'm talking about atrophy. I'm not saying that sarcopenias what we should all go for. Of course, that's what they say because they're trying to make me look like an asshole. Of course. Yeah, I want to hear from you like what your interpretation of that. I'm talking about you want to see what are like open up Westray prices book and go look at the aboriginals from the 1900s, 1910s, 1920s or go look at the American Indian. Did they look like fucking Sean Baker? No. They look like physically fit human beings because they lived outside all the time. They didn't hypertrophy muscles. They didn't have way bigger chest and small legs. That's not what you design to do. If you want to know who I think you should aspire to, Irwin LeCore. Go look at Irwin LeCore. He's two years, I two or three years younger than me. Guys, a fucking gazelle. He's a wild human. And guess what? He doesn't have hypertrophy muscles. He can do things in nature that Sean Baker would fucking trip over his own dictum. And guess what Irwin LeCore is who you should aspire to. That's what I'm saying. I'm saying that the model of longevity that guys like Sean and Peter Addy are building for their audiences is incorrect. Same thing with Joe Rogan. Incorrect. Remember who Joe Rogan supports MMA fighters. That's the modern day NFL player. Those fucking guys are all going to get taken to the woods. But guess what? Rogan's not going to tell you that. Like he made his part of his career in MMA. You have to realize it goes back to up to St. Clair. Why do I call him a shill? This is why I call him a shill. It's okay that he brings people on the talk. But I want people to look at people like Rogers, like Rush Low-Koon, like Seikman Barclay. These young cats get it. They get it. Look, I'm trading time for money. So if I'm going to trade time for money, I should get the hardest kind of money I should get. And what I'm saying to you, if you're the muscle guy and you want to be physically fit, I'm not telling you that's not something to aspire to. I'm telling you it is. But I don't think you want to hypertrophy parts of your body that aren't supposed to be hypertrophy because your brain and heart need that energy as you age. That's the key. You're not going to see many Sean Bakers at 85 years old. That I can tell you. What's going to happen? In fact, that's what Neor bars lie has shown. Most of those people, they have a decent amount of muscle mass, but nothing spectacular. In fact, some of them are a little bit chubby, which is part of the reason we have the obesity paradox in the literature. But people don't want to examine why that question is there. All they want to do is examine why it's not there. And what do I always say? How did I embrace the obesity paradox when I was a centralized guy, especially when I was a fat fuck? I said, "Look at a human baby. Why is a human baby fat?" I said, "Could it be that we've built a modern world where everybody's losing energy from their mighty country?" And that's the reason why we're getting bigger. How about that for? Try that one on for some. And then think about this. If you accept what I just told you because it's based on equals MC squared, does it make sense for you to go in a blue light gym and hypertrophy of your muscles when you're 20, 30, 40, 50 years old, or might you be setting up the conditions of a blue star that burns brightly for a really short period of time and then blows itself out in its fifth decade or six decade. Or starts blowing out your joints. Like, let's look at Martina and now it's a little over. You've seen her lately? Mm-hmm. Oh, not good. Yeah. Oh, how about Greta Wates? I'm not picking on women now, but I'm just letting you know. Let's look at it. It's Schwarzenegger. Anybody think that Schwarzenegger is thinking, well, what did those big muscles do for him? He's probably one of the worst thinkers you could follow them. I'm just putting it out there. Like I just think when you're a human being, if you have a duty to understand the mitochondria you need to protect are the ones in your head. I was just going to ask, and that's mostly via optimizing the light water and magnetism. Is that, or are there other things on top of that as well for the brain? If you really want to parse it out, it comes down to light water and magnetism optimizes the melanin and sheets in your head. That's actually what keeps your brain from atrophy. Mm-hmm. If you want to know why your brain atrophies is because you don't create enough extreme low frequency UV light inside your head, that actually gets to the crux of the matter of why I, you know, mind fucked you. I want people to know that you have to realize I look at more MRI scans probably than anybody you'll ever hear. And it's amazing to me how many brains I see shrunk. And in fact, I probably shouldn't say this, but some of the former gurus that are out there, the food gurus, I get a lot of their patients. They don't know that. You'd be surprised how many people trained at their gyms, you know, in California who used to write books on paleo that now have problems. It may be the reason why they haven't reversed their own autoimmune disease today or why they're still trying to tell people, you know, mind your mind, you can reverse your MS. I don't think so. That's one step. One step. Food can't fix a quantum disease. It's a step. And that's part of the reason why I respect people more like Saladino who actually is coming to that conclusion himself. I don't want to crucify him. like a bio lane wants to do because he wrote a book and now he's doing something opposite. No, I, I rather look at Saladino's like, I wrote this book. I got famous from doing that. But I'm beginning to realize there's other rooms or other doors in the room that I built that I need to go down. Now, what I'm doing, I'll be very honest with you. I'm watching see what Saladino does. Same thing with Ben Greenfield. I always like that. I think a lot of the things that Ben does is fucking off the reservation. I know why he does it. But does Ben fundamentally, the outdoor lifestyle? Does he do a lot of things right? Yeah. Ben is more like Irwin LeCore than Sean Baker. That's why you never hear me come out and say anything bad about Ben. I actually love what Ben's doing. I don't like that he sells them too many supplements and too much bullshit. But I know that's how he's built his empire. You know, they've asked me very much the same as Ben, but I think Ben has done it in a more ethical fashion than date. I think Dave is pure marketer and everybody knows how I feel about marketing. It's legalized line. But again, do I hold, you know, people like Dave and Marxist and all those guys culpable or even Rob Wolf? No, they did what they had to do. I get it. And you know why? It's the job and a decentralized network. For the people on the other side, they have to do their due diligence. You have to have skin in the game. You have to find out. Does it make sense? And I tell people the same way. Hold, hold me a column. You know, I told people all the time. The people on the other side of the ledger, the Sean Baker's, the Saladinos, you know, the a lot of the food gurors like Rob, they want to talk about how I look. I said, well, tell me about how you think because I could fucking think circles around you cats. I said, tell me what matters? Is it survival of the fittest or survival of the wisest? I mean, ultimately that's where the try breaks down. And I'm telling you the decentralized cats, they're going to come to the decentralized networks. You get into Bitcoin, you're going to start realizing being wiser than the people who buy fiat and ethereum and salana. That's the way to go. Those are going to be the people that are outside. Those are going to be the people eating seasonal dives. Those are the people that are going to take their supplements and throw them in the fucking garbage because they need their money to buy Bitcoin. They don't need their money to fucking make food gurors rich. We certainly don't need any fucking diet books. You know, all you got to do is go talk to our farmer and your area and say, what grows? Okay, I'm going to eat that. You know, what grows at the 13th latitude? It's far different than what grew in Nashville and far different than grows in New York. So when you go back and look at some of the things I said a really long time ago, so like the Emily Deans, the Paleo Psychic Psychiatry from Harvard, when I told her almost 15 years ago, eating a banana on December 31st carries consequences. And her and Rob and Chris Crasher and all the people in the Paleo community laughed at me. Who's fucking laughing now? Now the science has proved me right. You know, back then, that idea came from decentralized jack. What I want the audience to know is that before it was in the literature, my instincts taught me something and I knew it was correct. And I still did it, even though it wasn't in a biochemistry textbook. So here's the question to your audience today. What is it that you believe today that's masquerading as a truth or masquerading as bullshit that you need to slay? Maybe one of the things that you and I are talking about now, that maybe you need to question people like Peter Adia, Bialane and Sean Baker, maybe having skeletal muscles hypertrophy isn't too good. We clearly know, and you know this, you're a researcher, is having a hypertrophy heart muscle good? Oh, we haven't even gone down that path, but guess what? Everybody does know that, don't they? But we never look at the coronary muscle and then ask the same question for the muscle skeletal muscle. You know why? Because you'll find out the guys that sell foods and supplement ideas that are basically plastic surgeons. That's all they are. They're not real surgeons. They're just surgeons to change your facade. So if you put more weight in your facade, then you do in your heart and your mitochondria, great. But I can tell you this, if we were in Vegas, I think there's a higher chance that Peter Adia is going to die of dimension than I am. I'd put money on that path. I can really double and triple down with you, but I'm not going to go there. That's the reason why he wears a black shirt all the time. His solar panel is covered. Hmm, let's go there. He may have a couple of years on me, but I got news here. That skin comes from neuroactive term. That's your solar panel for this. That's the other part of active term. Every look, as you said before, it was a beautiful, safe, fractal nature. When people realize why vitamin A and vitamin D are yoked, why it is that what drives region generation and neurogenesis of the two, the same things, sonic hedge hot and vitamin A, why it is that vitamin A goes awry, all the photoreceptors inside us break. I just threw some big ideas that you're right there. You may not know how they all connect, but I do. And I'm sitting here chocolate. All that stuff is in the science. I've already read it. I've put it together for me. What I want people to do to listen to this. What is Jack tickling us with now? The next chapter, the next layer of the end, the part that you haven't seen yet, the part you're going to see. Part I'm going to make people see because of what we're doing in El Salvador. Okay. El Salvador is going to be built on a meritocracy. meritocracy, that's based around how nature works. So I am going to put the food gurus, the supplement gurus, the centralized gurus, the shaman, the crazy folk, all you're all going to have a chance. We're going to see it turns out to be right. That's how decentralized networks work. That's what happens in Yellowstone Park. Animals don't survive. They can't adapt. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, the proof of work component is so important and it also seems very obvious, but something that's not really considered in our society where we'll be guessing. It's like Mark Andreessen out there that are pushing proof of stake. Go listen to the last podcast that Rick just did with Mark Andreessen. Just go to it and listen to what he says. He tells you, I am a technologist, I'm a transhumanist and that's where I stop. He told you the truth. So if you choose to believe what he's telling you, it's your fault. He's telling you the truth. Just like Bill Gates is telling you truth. I did computers and now I'm doing vaccines. He's telling you the same story. Listen to him. Don't think they're lying to you. He wants to block the sun. If you do all those things, you become a better customer for him. Okay. And all the people who are his partners. That's a fact. Bill Gates is a scary one because he does have a lot of power, but I mean, even still, like we can go on any power if we all stand up. Exactly. Like we vote with our money, we vote with our attention and we vote on a lot of different ways, but guess what? We need to vote him off the islands. Yeah. To keep him in the United States. We need to build Arks elsewhere. Like what's going on in Germany right now with the farmers driving their tractors to, you know, the capital and telling the government, we're fucking sick and tired of this. Let me tell you something. That's a decentralized protest. We all need to get behind what the people in Denmark did. Let me let me just tell you something. This story of science that you and I are talking about. I hope people listen to this. Realize it bleeds everywhere. Bleeds in the money. It bleeds in our hell. It bleeds into our stupid ideas that our gurus are selling us. What is decentralized? Everything thinking tell you who should pack your parachute? Do you trust mother nature or do you trust some guru, some expert? That's fundamentally in 2024. Well, I hope everybody who listens to this podcast comes down. Things about it. It's not about fucking New Year's resolutions. You know, it's about it's about thinking the way you want to think for the rest of your life. Should should you invest some gym time in the way you think? Yep. That's where Uncle Jack's telling you. That's all I'm asking you. And you know, by me sitting out here in the sun, you know, all day talking to you about this, I'm not I'm not blowing my retinas by doing this talk with you through the blue light because I'm in very powerful UV light. I love that. I wish I was. But the point is I know that I'm older that I'm working on the seven decade of header applause in me. I need more so than that less to continue to do this. Remember going back in the podcast and an hour and a half ago about our 76 year old doctor playing pickleball and tennis and golf because he read some papers that I won't get all Alzheimer's that way. Guess what Uncle Jackson? This is where I need to do my decentralized and centralized shbiel. If I want to keep doing it long so that I don't wind up like the people that work out in Blue Lich M's or the people that are technologists like Bill Gates or Steve Jobs or Steve Balmer or Paul Allen, I don't want to wind up really, really rich and dead at 67 or 65. I would rather, you know, be the guy down here still doing the podcast telling people change the way you think because your life will change. You can have your cake you need it too. You can but the thing is you need to understand how to do it and the way you do it isn't by listen to a guru. The way you'll listen to it, your guru is Mother Nature. That's it. I want, I want you to listen to her. She's the fucking the boss. Okay, and we are a fabric in the bosses network. Don't ever forget that. You are no different than this tree behind me or that hippo or lion. You operate by the same principles. You need a connection with her and it needs to be the most intimate connection that you ever have in your life because if it's not the connections you make in life won't be good. Whether it's professionally, socially, emotionally or physically, they will not be good. I promise you that. That makes sense and it's making me think of like a lot of the biohacking tools are basically trying to replace things in nature and that we should just try to seek them out at their source because they're going to be more full spectrum. Do you think man is as smart as Mother Nature? Yeah, no way. It's not possible because we emerged from her. We're just a portion of her. No, I'm going to take you back. Let's do a time travel to the question I posed to you, Bremen. Or actually, I didn't pose it. Rick posed it to you because nature ever make mistakes. What did Jack say? Effort, wasn't it? Yeah, it was different. You know why? That's important. I'm highlighting it now. That tells you who's decentralized and who's not. See, he likes to think he is, but the answer to that question uncovers it. That's why I tell people I like to put people in chaos because when you put people in chaos, you find out how they think really quick. Yep, that makes sense. And I mean, if I remember correctly, his explanation was like, oh, yes, they're mistakes, but they're not really mistakes because it's just trial and error. But I mean, the mistake, what explain extinction events? Yeah. You know, I was like, dude, if nature makes a mistake, she gets rid of it really quick, like really quick. We should do instead of holding on for dear life to our ideas. We have guys like Dave Asprey trying to figure out, you know, how to biohack nature. I mean, it's almost preposterous when you think about it. And I think about it that way, but I don't know when people listen to this. Some people still think it's smart to send him $2,000 a month to do stupid shit. And I mean, I guess, I mean, I'm not telling you you can't do it. I guess what I'm trying to tell people is why would you want to do that when you could probably spend two or $3,000 a month coming sitting down here and doing what I'm doing. Totally. What does your take on like the Spurdy lamps? Do you think it's like a sham? I mean, compared to, you know, you know, artificial light. Yeah, there's a benefit. But do I think you need to know how to use an artificial Spurdy? Yeah, most people don't. So therefore, use it. You know, until you become decentralized and you're thinking, you have no duty. What your smartest move is to do this. What? Gakton, you see a Spurdy light behind me? Oh, you don't need it. You got the sun. They're OG. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Like, just like I tell people in Bitcoin, listen to the OG using Bitcoin. Why is Dorsi one of my good friends? Why do I pay attention to him more than I'm going to pay attention to say like a guy like American Hottel or Joe Carlisari, you know, who are newbies in Bitcoin? They have they have value to be an insight, but they don't have the insight of the guys in the beginning. The guys in the beginning made a decision when it was wildly unpopular to do this. And I actually think it's kind of ironic that I think the same thing in Bitcoin is happening in decentralized medicine that OG guys are now they also embraced me. The new millennials, they still have been embraced with Uncle Jack's teaching in biology. And I all point out to him. I said, that means you're all going to be rich like Steve Jobs. And you're going to die at 50 years old. And that's good because then my kids can steal your money. See that they respond to. When they start thinking about that like that, then you catch them and go, yeah, maybe, you know, doing all the shit that we do and staying on clubhouse all day isn't the smartest thing in the world to do or being on Twitter all day. And you know, the stuff that I do, like I do with you, I think most people look at my podcast, you'll say, yeah, a lot of his podcasts were done with a shirt off outside in the sun. You know, these are not classic podcasts that you'd expect a doctor to do, but what am I trying to do when we have discussions like this? I mean, my discussion with you for me has been more fun than any podcast I've done probably in five or six years. Why? Because I'm telling you, this is the secret sauce how you change the way you think. And once you change the way you think, you begin to realize you don't need any guru at all. Because you're going to begin to start trusting the one that's inside you. The guru that's in you is very authentic. And you know, when we started this podcast two hours ago, I told you this story about being late to you because of Henry, the funny thing is this is exactly what I was talking to Henry. It's about changing the way you think. And Henry couldn't figure out when he left Guatemala and came now, Salvador. Why it is that is thinking for the last five months has been better here. And guess what? Everything that I told Henry is almost exactly what I'm telling you now. And he sat there and he listened. And he's like, this is amazing. And just so you know, I saw the sunrise with Henry this morning. He started watching the sunrise because of me. And I said, Henry, it's not me. It's Mother Nature and the Sun that's improving all your brain chemistry. That's the reason why you're at different cabin. That's the reason why people are noticing the changes. That's the reason why you're you're going to be more successful than you would have been as your former Henry self. I said, that's the beauty and nature. You don't have to do too much. You don't have to spend a lot of money. For some people listen to this. Yeah. They go say, yeah, I got to spend money to get to the 13th latitude or the ninth latitude or wherever it is you want to go. But ultimately, even that, you can still change. One of the things that COVID gave us a benefit for most of us now can do our jobs remotely. And for those of you who can't like me, look, my job is really difficult to do remotely. If I figured it out, why can't you see, think about what I just said. It's a thinking game. I figured it out because I'm thinking better than I would have. This would happen. COVID would happen when I was 40 years old. I think I would have been in big trouble. COVID didn't do anything to slow me down. In fact, it's been me out. I mean, going back to what you said earlier about like the OGs versus the newcomers. I'm just thinking how much it honestly pissed me off when people started standing up more recently about, oh, like we shouldn't have had the mandates. We shouldn't have had the lockdowns when it's easy when the conversations already been had. But the people who initially stood up, those are the real like changes and the movers. Correct. And that's that's the reason why I put the quick suite I did about Rogan. I don't think he's anybody to aspire to. I don't think he was powerful enough. And I think part of the reason is because he's already on Spotify. It's the same the same argument I make about you. But now like you're going to have a huge opportunity. I don't think he's taking it. And I think I understand part of the reason why, but it's not about those guys. Actually, this podcast I'm doing with you is about the people who listen to it. Hopefully the people listen to it are going to scare it with other people who they know are centralized. And I'm going to say, look, Jack, in this podcast, he doesn't talk about deep science. This is actually about the philosophy behind decentralized thinking. This is about truly how you do change your health first because you change it by the way you think. But you're never going to go from centralized platform to the decentralized one. If you think the same way you did. And Einstein said that. Everybody asked him, how did you figure this out? You just could I figure it out if I thought like everybody else did know how to think about the problem differently. That's when I realized time is relative. And I did it through a thought experiment. The craziest part about Einstein. See, never was an experimentalist. You know, like your PhD. So you'll hopefully appreciate this. I've said this to so many PhD food guru guys, you know, biochemist. All the guys that I mentioned already in this podcast. I said, don't you find it fucking amazing that Einstein never did an experiment. He wants a Nobel Prize. And everybody who's done the experiments since then has found that he's right. So why do we think we have to do fucking experiments to prove everything? I mean, think about it. He came up with the idea of the photoelectric effect in his fucking head. And he famously said, I took all the thermodynamic givens and I put it together in the only way it possibly could work. So when people say to me, can we figure out the modern disease chronic epidemic? Because that's what Bobby Kennedy said to me in the second tetragramids in what I did. And I said, yeah, I know where the answer is. It's in mitochondrial DNA. It's actually in a lot of the ideas that you and I talked about today. I said, that's what needs to happen. We have to stop funding the guys like Fauci. We have to take the funding power away from guys like Fauci and fund guys like Doug Wallace. Funded the PhD researchers that are studying the biophysics and the organism of cells. And let's see what we find. We may find some bullshit, but I guarantee you we'll trip over. I mean, how do you think DARPA found the internet? I mean, I would tell you, if the information was in Mark Andreessen's hands, that DARPA had, I guarantee you, Mark Andreessen would have fucked the internet out royally, just like you fucked up Netsky. There's a powerful statement there because it tells you that the paradigm in power has a lot to do with why the truth is what the truth is. And there are some good things that come out of it. I would tell you, I generally hate DARPA for what it stands for, but guess what? Without them, we know how the internet. That's technically decentralized network. Bitcoin the same way, nature. But what we need to do is we need to mimic decentralized things in our lives. Like we need to spread that everywhere, but people don't do that. Because most of us that are listening to us were born in a centralized world. We're just getting the first taste of what decentralization could do. It's kind of like when Magellan or Vasco de Gamma or Christopher Columbus came and you see what happens. That the first movers didn't-- it wasn't a great thing for the people that were there. And we need to be cognizant of them. Yeah, it can look different in the beginning than how it's going to turn out for sure. And I think as long as you have proof of work in mind, and you're moving forward authentically, and honestly, then you can trust that guidance to take you in the right direction. And if things change, then you have to be able to change and not be so rigid in your way of thinking about it. I agree. Listen, this has been a good conversation. It's been so fun. Oh my god, I'm not going to keep you forever. I was just going to recommend that we wrap it up. But I would love to have another conversation at some point. I think this has definitely gone a direction that I was hoping it was going to go, but I wasn't sure. Because I mean, I think it would be easy to get into the weeds and discuss scientific details. But really, the most important conversation to be had is how to think. And it's the one that's missing from our society. So I just want to thank you so much for your generosity with your time for sharing decentralization with us and just for your gifts to the world. I think you're just doing incredible work, and I'm so thankful to have you on here. Well, no problem. It was my pleasure and it was a lot of fun to do. It was for me too. I have a great day. And thank you all for listening. You too, take care. Bye. Bye-bye.