#122 DIOGO LIMA MAYER

Hello and thank you for listening to Horse Heroes. In this podcast, Floor Scunemakers of the HS Communications takes you on an equestrian odyssey around the globe, talking to some of the leading entrepreneurs and sporting superstars that shaped the wonderful world of horsemanship. Listen to these touching tales from amazing horsemen and women as they share their open-hearted horse stories in fun, frank and passion filled one-on-one conversations. So sit back, kick off your boots and enjoy the ride. Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Horse Heroes Podcast. And right now, I am in Portugal again and it's been three years ago when I came to Portugal for the very, very first time and my first introductions to the Lusitanos were actually at the place I am now at Montevallio Acre Resort and I'm in front of the Ogolima mayor again. It's been a few years ago that we first met and I'm very happy to be here again. We had a very, very good podcast that first time I was here. It was a very emotional conversation with which Wow and with you, the Ogolima, the famous horse Ecuador. A lot has happened in between and I really would like to speak to you today about what happened and your future vision and how you are, of course. So good morning. Good morning. First of all, thank you very much for being here again in Montevallio and to catch up with me which is not always easy. No, you said I need a PA. Exactly. Exactly. But with pleasure that I'm here again and I have to say that I really, I'm really impressed with the passion you bring to Portugal and to the Lusitano breeder that you are kind of connecting a lot of passion people about the Lusitano breeder. So you're doing a really good work and it's a pleasure for me to change my ideas and to give a little bit my vision about Montevallio, about the future of the Lusitano breeder. I know exactly where I am at the moment and the vision and the journey I would like to continue. I have those ideas are quite clear for me so it's a pleasure to share those ideas whether people like it or not but they are my ideas and and I again like I always say the breaders that I really admire they have strong convictions and they have solid ideas and those are the ones I would like to share today. Yes and I remember very well the first interview I had with you and which well of course speaking about the journey you had so far and of course the horse that brought you a lot which was Ecuador and that time you were also telling me about Lerio and about Maestro, the younger horses you had to start to compete to you know there were the future horses and I was lucky enough to see Maestro and Lerio actually both of them in the training yesterday. Can you tell me a little bit what happened with these two horses and the future plans in the sport? Yeah so it's good that you start like explaining a little bit about the competition program about Ecuador you know he he was more than a horse for as it was he was like a friend and the whole journey for me was like an MBA you know it was like a going to the university and and specialization in the sport because it was a completely new journey for me as an owner we did a lot of mistakes in the way but it's like that for anyone that starts something new and now like five or six years later we are all a bit more mature we have starting to have a bit of white hair and and we are all a little bit more mature and experience so I would say the passion is exactly the same the drive and the ambition as well and the difference is that it's it's a path that we already know and that we have already gone through so in a way it's it's it's it's a bit easier because we we've been there and of course every horse has its own story and Lerio and Maestro are completely different and and you know talking a bit about Juan I also see that Juan now with 31 he's a much more much more mature writer and what's what really makes a writer is writing different horses Ecuador was was an outstanding horse these two that he's writing are completely different and and and writing different horses with different qualities and different weaknesses is what really makes a top writer and these two horses I think they have two things in common with Ecuador they have them they have the right ability so the horses give everything Lerio is a bit a bit more a kind of a shy horse super super talented so in a way he really really reflects the Baroque Luzitano that you can ask Piaf in passage at five he because he had he did it it was a little bit a different way for Juan to build him towards Grand Prix because what a horse had in talent he lacked in sportive ability so he didn't have the strength of Ecuador for instance and so Juan's construction of Lerio was one more focused on giving him more muscle and patience because you know Grand Prix is all about doing the exercises in six minutes without interruption so for that you need a horse that is physically and athletically ready to perform the tests without any tensions but was was a horse that also made Juan a better writer because he I remember Juan had had the Grand Prix completely done when Lerio was six years old and was not the case that he said he's going too fast no the horse just give it to you but for Juan was also different exercise in a way that he needed to understand that Lerio needed time to show all that talent and and Lerio now is a is a done Grand Prix project he has competed last year in European championship in Crosé he was the best Luzitano and the best Ibeurin horse in the in the show I really think he deserve to be in the final and I think he was literally one percent like half percent away from reaching the freestyle and I think he deserved it because the my opinion the judges were a bit conservative especially in the piaf passage I think Juan did a really really good work but it's still a very young horse and and this year's Juan I think will show even a better Lerio than last year you know a lot of writers say that say that I'm talking a little bit on the three-view as an owner but it takes a life to get to the Grand Prix and it takes another life to improve the Grand Prix so I think the top writers in the circuit are those that can manage to improve the horse while they are already in Grand Prix and that's really difficult it's oh as difficult as to get to the Grand Prix so it's just like finding different like little fine tunings normally mostly about the balance of the horse not like doing the exercises itself because Juan will not to will not improve Lerio's piaf by doing 1000 piafs no it's just about the balance and working his physicality and Juan does a lot of cross working Montevélio he'll work Cavalettes so it's also about giving the horse time to really get the strength he needs to make the Grand Prix even easier because at you know the top points so the eights the ninths and the tenths are are given by the jazzy when everything really looks really easy so I think Juan this year how Lerio is 11 and I believe he can that's my feeling let's see if it's true or not but I think Lerio is ready to give another little step because he's solid on the 70s which is already really difficult I believe he can now give another little step upwards let's see myestro myestro is I would say a horse that reminds us a lot of about Ecuador especially his work ethic he's exactly the same so it's a horse like with a strong character a bit the macho the alpha macho you know very Latin very very you know very territorial very stallion but in a way a horse that is never says I will not do that you know he you can take him to the other side of the world and he will go with you physically a bit different than Ecuador I think Ecuador was a horse maybe with more pushing power than myestro so it was a horse that was always carrying weight myestro has the grumpy written in his face in a way that collection is super easy much easier than Ecuador everything that is going sideways is much easier as well so it was also a horse that you can immediately see at four or five that he would be a grumpy horse but was also a horse that needed time to get the strength because he's 180 so it's the biggest I think is the biggest loser I know he is a beast but you when you see that that monster let's say and there's saddle you you will never imagine that he has so much talent for for a collection because he finds it so, so easy. I'm lucky. enough to write him a tweak and hacking him out. A bit I used to say to my department is the hacking department. And for my history is really important, because he's a big horse that also needs that freedom to go in the fields. Jerome finds it maybe a bit risky for him because he's tiny and my history is huge. And he's a horse that when I write him, and I've written a lot of horses, I feel respect for him. I respect him in a way. You feel like you have a Ferrari underneath you. And if he run off, he puts you in place, in your place. But I really love writing him because I give me so much power, the feeling of power I've never had. And at the same time, it's really good for him because I, in a way, am a bit crazy too. Because he feels, OK, this guy that is on top of me, he's also a bit like me. He's not afraid of anything. So I take him to the cows, I take him to the lake. So if there is something that he looks at, I will not go now. Yes, you will. Yes, you will. So I also think it's important for a horse to have that go. We have freedom a little bit. It's absolutely crucial because they go into the arena every day. Of course, when you are in a competition career, you need that discipline, but never forgetting they also need a bit of fun. But yes, Maestro is due to debut in Grand Prix this year. Hopefully April may still have to decide exactly where he's going to debut. But he's a horse, I believe. I believe a lot in. I don't know where people have to make comparisons. I think every horse has its own story. We need a bit of luck as well. But I see a lot of things that make me dream. And at the end, we have to dream. Yesterday I was hearing an interview from Houdrik Pso, the Olympic champion. And he was exactly sharing his admiration for breaders. Because breaders are a bit-- I used to say the unsung heroes of the Western world. Because we are in the bottom. But actually, breaders with passion, that belief in its horses. It's very important. And I am a dreamer. Of course, we need to keep the fits in the ground and to make good decisions. I'm really lucky to work with so many people, with so much talented people around me, like Juan Corale, our vet team. I really believe we have a world-class team with our horses. And my role is just to try to make them agree and make them feel that it is possible. That is one thing. The Portuguese sometimes, they are afraid to dream high. And I'm not afraid to dream high. I think I told you in the last podcast, my first teacher I had in the faculty in business administration, he had a sentence written that was dreaming, doesn't pay a tax. Unfortunately, our tax still doesn't tax it for dreaming. But you need to dream. And of course, fight for those dreams. Because one thing is to dream and wait for some angel to come from the sky that doesn't have you need to go after it. Yeah, but what I think is really impressive, if we look back, I think it was January 2023. I think-- I don't know. It was September, September 22, actually. So it's already a little bit longer ago that I came here first time. You spoke about Lerio and Maestro, what the dreams were. And then if you look so many years ahead, they actually happened. I mean, you have the horses still healthy. They're still amazing. They're doing the Grand Prix. You still have the team together. As well as still training. But I also think what's really funny, I remember, you speak about Maestro. And I see your eyes when you speak about Maestro, that it's complete. You adore the horse, I see it. But what was-- yes, they are. I see them again. I saw him then. He was the monster and the beast, the very big head. And maybe not the prettiest. Oh my god, yesterday, this horse is some horse with the big sex appeal and make all the hats turn. For sure, if he's going to be the big famous guy again. Yeah. No, it's exactly what you say. I'm lucky now to work with all these people that are a bit older. We are all a bit older. But one thing I think has been a common success factor of Montvelu is the consistency. In Portugal, it's very typical owners. They fail with results. And they just blame the rider and they change the rider. And one thing I'm very proud of is the consistency of our team. I've been-- Juan has been working with us for more than 12 years. He started as a total rookie and he's with us. So I think that also says something about us. And I really like to work with people on the long term. Of course, you know as well that we have setbacks sometimes. But that doesn't mean that I still don't believe in them. Setbacks are part of the process. And with Maestro was one of those horses that from day one, when I saw him, he looked like the ugly kid of the class. The underdog. The underdog. But he told me clearly with his attitude that he would do it. And Juan wanted to debut him in Grand Prix last year. And I told him, no, we're going to debut him in one year because when he comes in the ring, he needs to be very-- everything needs to look solid. Yeah. There's no rush. You have little competing. So why is the rush? So let's wait. And especially now that judges are very picky and we wanted to see, I think, the first impression. When you, especially for a rider, that show on that has been Olympics or Champions World Championships. The first impression is a very important one. So yeah, I think this year he's ready to go in the ring. And let's see if the vision was the right one. But I really believe the horse will be an important horse for the Luzitano and for the Portuguese team. Super. Yeah, I cannot wait. What happens when he goes there? But you're talking, of course, about your team and your collaboration with a lot of people. And what I know over the last few years because I've seen it, of course, you also work together with other countries, a lot. Other riders, other breeders. And I think you are maybe not the only one, but not many people in Portuguese breeders do that. I think you always think a little bit outside the box. Why is that? It's very clear for me. And also started a little bit when we were forming a Quador team. I really wanted to surround myself with people that could generally help us. And sometimes it's not a criticism towards my country, but when you are in a small circle with old habits and always the same people, you create certain habits that's not always favor you. And it was very clear for me that we needed people that would generally tell us the truth. What you're doing is a mistake. Go left and don't go right. And because we were leaving a new journey, it was like a discovery for us. And where I saw a horse with potential, or rather a potential, I needed some-- I needed voices that could really help me take good decisions. Because at the end, my role as an owner was to take good decisions. And I used to say that in a sports project, the owner should take the decisions for the good and the bad. When we go in the right direction, good. But when we make a mistake, when we fail, I also take the responsibility. Because at the end, we have to pay the bills. It's all very nice. But someone in the end needs to pay the check. And going abroad was really important for me, because I really wanted people that could say, "Dio, go try this way, go that way." And we've been lucky to work with outstanding people, like Karl Hester. Now, Gareth Hughes is riding one of our mayors. We had Kira Kirkland as the national trainer of Portugal. Recently, Monica Tiordorescu, the national German team, was also in Portugal. Due to also some shows we did in Belgium and Holland, I got to know the Vanolst family. So I changed ideas with a lot of people. And at the end, when you were in-- I was recently in the European Championship, having dinner with Emma Blondel, the owner of Mountain Joint Free Style at the end, you start realizing that their challenges are the same. We all have horses, different breeds, different countries. But the struggles are a bit the same. So having this possibility to change ideas with these people that have much more knowledge than me is opening me horizons and make me think a little bit outside of the box. So I still really, when I have a doubt, I dare to maybe sometimes I call Karl, Karl, I have this problem. What do you think? Give me an idea. And people like to help us. Because I think the first step of being humble is to ask for help. And I don't always have the answer. for a lot of times I don't know what to do. So, I just ask again people, I really trust will give me the right, their honest idea about where I should go. And then at the end I need to decide whether it's a good idea or not. And again, I also the way I try to lead with my team is never in a very dictator like as a dictator. Like I have this idea, I form, I call Jean-Coualie, look what you think about this idea. And sometimes they give me different ideas and I accept that their way is better than the way I suggest. It's a team work, you know, and good teams make good results. And working for a lot of years, more than 10 years, we know each other very well. We know our weaknesses, we know when we have bad days. But it's, again, I'm very proud to work with them and to learn with them every day. If there is something for me, it's crucial to have talent around me. And I'm lucky to have a lot of talent around me. But it's also, of course, I live in Holland. I come from our KWPN horses. It's a completely different breed, of course, in the Lusitanos. I never really realized before I came to Portugal and learned from the breeders here. And of course I've been really, really lucky as well to all the people who opened the doors for me to show and tell me and learn me about Lusitanos. But some people in Holland, like the warm bloods there, don't really always understand everything about the Lusitanos. And then, of course, Karl and Garrett and Rebecca and Ruby, there are my friends, Karl and, yeah, Karl and who for years as well, writing warm bloods, KWPN horses as well. And Rebecca and Garrett have been coming to the stable where I started always, where I always write the horses in Holland. And, you know, so they are so familiar with the Dutch horses, but they really love the Lusitanos in this. We are in a very important point for the Lusitano breeds, because if you look back, what the Lusitano has done in the last decade is absolutely remarkable. We have a very small breed, talking about briefly 3,000 mayors worldwide. So, in terms of numbers, our, let's say the population of the Lusitano, I don't know in detail, but I would say less than 5% of, for instance, the KWPN. So, it's a really small breed, but nevertheless, despite then being a small breed, if you look statistically at the results, the Lusitano breed has achieved mostly in dressage. In the last decade is incredible. I remember in Tokyo Olympic Games, the Lusitano was the second represented breed in Grand Prix, with 11 horses in different teams. The first was the Dutch, the KWPN. And that is, and if you start thinking, how is that? Are they doing something special? And my answer, yes, we have something special. And what we have something special is the talent and the right ability and the temperament of the Lusitanos. And that is the DNA of the Lusitanos. And as you know, it's a sentence, "Gerith, he uses a lot that I completely agree. A top young horse is born. A top Grand Prix horse is trained." And so the Grand Prix is not born with a horse, you need to train it. And the Lusitanos, they have the DNA to get there. And I think the world started discovering this talent, the Lusitanos, hard for Grand Prix. I'm not saying that our horse is the best in the world. We have a different horse. As you know, our breed is a closed-step book. It's one of the few closed-step books in the world, like the Tarcanner or even the PRE. But we are lucky to have a legacy of right-ability from bullfighting times, the controversial bullfighting times. But that made the Lusitano the horsey is today mentally strong for giving, allowing the rider to make mistakes, brave in the ring. All those characteristics that are so important for the Grand Prix, the Lusitano has it. And I used to say here every week, I have welcome riders from all over the world in Montevale every week. I used to say that the character is the non-negotiable feature of the Lusitano. If we touch the character, we lose the DNA of the Lusitano. And suddenly our horse is not recognizable anymore. So that is the, for me, that's the non-negotiable thing. And of course, I have a vision for the Lusitano. I'm very critical with our own horses, we breed. I think we need to improve our horses. We cannot change that because if going back to Ecuador, he was not the best horse in the world in terms of natural movements. But he had, for me, the best definition of the best temperament in the world. It was a ten. And how do you define that temperament? Sacrifice the working spirit, the ability to suffer even when he was struggling, the ability to give confidence to the rider. His motivation to always outperform himself, that, in my opinion, was temperament at the highest level. And that is something you cannot lose. And it's sometimes not visible when you look at the horse because the temperament comes on their brain. But that is, for me, the crucial thing. And you write a lot of Lusitani yourself and you write warm bloods as well. They are different horses. They are weaker. They have to be built in a different way. So what is my challenge? My challenge is really. And I say my challenge because I breed the horse that I believe in. To keep this temperament. I would say, "Equator's temperament" because he's for me the best temperament I've ever seen. And then try to add a bit more athletic capacity. Also, something, again, advantages of talking with top riders. Gareth, the other day, was telling me, "You need to bring a bit more body move in your horses, in general." He defines horses into fields. Leg movers and body movers. And I think in the Lusitani we have a lot of leg movers. Not so many back movers and body movers. What I'm talking is we need also to bring a bit more suppleness in top lines. Some of the Lusitani top lines are a bit stiff. Due to the bullfighting, because bullfighting is all about walk and canter. There is no trot in the bullfighting. And also, when you have a bull in the ring, you cannot have a canter that is too big otherwise the bull will catch you. For dressage, the features you need are a bit different. So I'm trying to introduce in our formula a bit more top line elasticity. And if I have to point out also a quality you need to improve in the Lusitano is the canter. We used to say that the canter is the Lusitano's best movement is the canter. But that's a bullfighting canter, which is different from a Grand Prix canter. And why? Because for the Grand Prix you need a canter that has the ability to extend, to make a good extended canter for instance. But at the same time, a horse that can keep the quality in the collection without getting tense and bringing the weight into the hind legs to the hawks. So I think that's the feature we also need to focus more at the moment in the Lusitano is to improve the quality of the canter. And as you know, 60% of the Grand Prix is in canter. I think we have good canter here in Montevallu. But I struggle sometimes when I need to bring a new stallion with different genetics from mine to choose to pick top quality canters. It's not easy. So I think we'll get there. And just to finish this answer. Also, the challenge we have in the Lusitano is the fact that the Lusitano is so good doing so many things. You have Lusitanos in driving carriages like Figuresh, that became World Champion. You have Lusitano's bullfighting, you have Lusitano's doing working equitation, doing classical riding in the arena and hiking jumping. So the Lusitanos, they literally do everything. But that comes with a problem. It's very difficult to have five breeders in a table agreeing in the direction. Whereas for instance in the Dutch warm blood, your horse is either jump or they do dress asher or a bit of both and they go inventing. So it's very easy to choose a direction. In the Lusitano it's very difficult. I think that's a challenge we have to survive with, to live with it. But I think what is going to happen is a group of breeders that will go towards more direction of sports like me. I have a lot of friends like Bragg, Quimbre that are a bit in a different direction and I don't criticize them for their vision. Because they feel it's the horse they feel is the right one. And that gives a bit of magic also on the Lusitano of being very diverse. But it's sometimes difficult when you need to convince a group of riders to select towards a direction. Because of this diversity we have in the Luzitano, our horse is so good doing so many things that at the end, in my opinion, that is also, that comes also a bit with some challenge to agree in the direction we go. Yes. And of course, this weekend was the APSL approvals in Lisbon. I was there because for me it was actually the same date as the KWP and approval. So I was a bit like, "Oh, where do I go? Do I go home to see our stallions?" But for me it's just very, very interesting to learn how do they get scored the stallions because it's a complete different system than we do in Holland. Can you explain a little bit how that works with this weekend in Lisbon? Yes, of course. Now we enter a bit in the controversial issues because if you speak with five breeders, they will give you five different opinions. Yes. I will give my own opinion, that is, it's mine opinion. I think this stallion approval that was implemented, I think two years ago, so this is the third. This was the third. This is the third saloon du caval, so like the stallion grading. I think it's a good initiative in the way that before we had like five or six different gradings all over Portugal, with bad conditions, with in small arenas, without any facilities for the horses comfort and well-being. And now we have one single approval in January. Maybe it was a bit too much to go from six to one, but I think it's still a good decision to have this event in Lisbon before the breeding season starts and every breeder that wants to get their stallion approved has the chance to show their horses. And it's also for the markets good to see so many different stallions into compare a bit of those stallions. And you saw in Lisbon stallions clearly designed towards dressage and others also coming from the Baroque bloodlines, so for a completely different purpose and still both horses coming from those two different worlds also being approved as stallions. So I think the association showed to be inclusive as well. My critics are mostly, I think people need to understand that the scores that the horses get in the end are not a stamp of quality for their future. Because what the judges are scoring is what we call "pederón de rassa". The "pederón de rassa" is like the pattern of the Luzitano. It's like a thermometer on where the morphology of the horse should be. It's not just like a simple assessment of horse's quality and sportive potential. They are assessing whether the horses that are in the grading are close or are far away from the pattern of the Luzitano. The "statbook" has defined 40 years ago when the Luzitano statbook was created. And I think it's important because, again, I was telling you before, the Luzitano is a different horse than the others. And I think our horse should get an identity. And we cannot lose that visual identity. But the market needs to understand that for a horse to get 75 points or 79 points, that horse isn't necessarily better than a horse that will get 68. That is, in my opinion, is not an assessment of potential and quality. And if you look back about the top performance in the Luzitano history, they were not horses with a lot of points. I give you some examples. Ruby. 71 points. I'm not wrong. Seven for walk. Eight for a trot. Seven for counter. I think something like that. I'm not 100 percent sure. But I know he had 71 or 71 points. Equal or 71 points. Fugo is not a lot of points. All horses that became historic for the Luzitano, that broke records, that reached history for the Luzitano and were not horses of 80 points. I'm not saying that a horse with 80 points will not one day break all the records. He might do it. I'm just saying that the market should perceive those scores as a proxy towards the pattern. Not an assessment of quality. Those are different things. I think assessments of quality, in my opinion, are functional tests, either if they're working in the competition results, bullfighting results, if a horse is really good bullfighting, dress as results. They are measuring just whether the horse is close or far away from the pattern of the rassa, from the pattern. That should be very clear. Not always. I think the market doesn't always understand that. They believe, 80 points, that should be the study I should use. Yes. That's why this is so different from how it goes in Holland. They have also all the pre-selections. But here the horses need to prove themselves. In the Netherlands, I know the system for the Oldenburg and for the Noverian. Everything varies towards sports. The assessment, they're not assessing the beauty of the horse. They assess the potential. Walk through a cantor, ride ability. They have the trials where the horses are tested from people within the statbook by different riders. They need sometimes also to jump. There are a lot of assessments but all towards sports. I'm not criticizing what we do in Portugal because at the end we have our own rules. We have our own horse with its own identity. I think the only critic is how the market perceives the assessment of these greetings. They're not assessments of quality. They are assessments of the pattern. Yes. Yes. That should be quite clear because otherwise all the markets will use the horses with a lot of points. That will for sure give horses with a lot of beauty. But I think what made the Luzita really special was the fact that our horse never lost the functional side of it. If you look to our neighbors in Spain, now maybe being a bit controversial, I think the mistake they've been doing was directing their breed clearly towards beauty and they lost a bit of functional side. I'm not saying something new because a lot of the Spanish riders, they point out that the fact that they need now to ride Luzitanas because they don't find enough good Spanish horses and they have a breed 10 times bigger than ours. We cannot lose the functional side of the Luzitanas otherwise we will destroy our breed. The way the breed is mounted, the point system, maybe I think it could be updated. There could be some updates and I've already suggested to the association to make some updates. I give you one idea for instance, is to give the health mark like we do in dressage. Maybe the judges are not brave enough to give a 9 to the counter but maybe they give a 8.5. Maybe sometimes they look at maybe a stallion is not approved because he got 3-6s but maybe the back is a 6.5 and then he is approved. I think giving the health mark would be a really good idea to make the distinguish stallions better because a 7 for the trot is very general and maybe it's not a trot for a 8 but it's a trot for a 7.5. Like they do in dressage and in dressage they've made the introduction of the health point and made the judges more fair giving points because they can distinguish different results and different riders. Another idea that I think when I give these ideas the answer is always the past. How can we compare now with I think like everything in life we need to innovate. Yes, but the past is the past. There should be a mark when I'm really talking about functionality and rideability. I think in a way there should be an introduction of a mark for rideability. I tell you for instance I've seen stallions in the approval maybe they didn't get the 8s or the 9s for the movements but they show immense rideability the way they did their transitions, the easiness they showed in the ring. So why not giving an introduction of a mark for rideability because at the end why are you in Portugal? Because you want to ride our horses and not KWPN. You want to ride with it and so why not giving a sign to the market to introduce a mark for rideability. That would be really. And that's not that difficult. That wouldn't be that difficult. I think if you look at the presentation of a horse you can assess rideability from a lot of angles, from transitions, from the relaxation they've shown in the ring. Sometimes the horse gets 999 but it's all with tension so give a lower mark for rideability. So maybe also do something with the test riders then if they're all changes. My doubt is whether the people that are in charge of the Luzitano Association will have a bold vision to innovate. We cannot be stuck in time. We have to innovate. And that doesn't mean we are betraying our legacy. No, we, like any breed, like any society, we need to improve and we need to make a direction towards the future. So I think little changes that are going in the right direction are not a problem and are not a betrayal to our values and to our history. So those are two little ideas. And just to finish, also something I think the association and the Luzitano should really think about is on the mayor's side. I think we're giving a sign. The way the Luzitano's Facebook is designed is clearly 90% of the spotlight's artboard stallions and the mayors. They're completely forgotten. And I give an example. I'm at the moment in Montevélio, I have seven mayors under saddle. We have Lufa, the in England, competing with Gareth. If you want to approve a mayor, you cannot show her under saddle. So it's just giving the sign a bit like in all times in society, women stay at home taking care of children. And that's a stupid sign. In my opinion, because mayors, if you look at the last three or four Olympic games, how many times mayors have been in the top three places? A lot of times. Olympic champions. I'm glad you're seeing this because I actually had quite some Dutch people asking me for mayors. They want ridden mayors and they're looking for mayors. But we're talking about the stallions. We're talking about maybe five, six breeders in Portugal that ride their mayors. So I've always been riding mayors. Unfortunately, it's not so also talking a bit on a business perspective is a bit more difficult because a stallion can generate business through Siemensel. So a mayor, when you have her as an asset, it's more difficult to get a return on the investment because there is not like a real market for embryos. There is, but it's a tiny market. So what I'm doing here in Montevéluis, all our mayors are tested under saddle, all. What I'm doing is I'm being very critical. Because that don't show the right ability I want, they don't breed. And the sign that most of the time is given in the market is, okay, we ride a mayor. She's crazy, okay, she goes to breed. Ah, she's lame. That puts her breeding. No, it's wrong. We need to be very, very critical and demanding with the mayors we breed with. Because at the end, if you speak with three or four breeders, they will always tell you our breeding program depends mostly on this mayor. One mayor is enough to make a good breeding program. So I think the association should give a sign. I have some ideas that I've also proposed that riding the mayors is super important. And I know there are some initiatives going on to allow breeders to, with some exchanges with schools to have mayors in training at lower cost. But I have, I tell you, getting to see my mayors at their saddle is making me a better breeder because we see them at their saddle. And at the end, you don't need sometimes five years under no. One year is enough, you to assess the right ability, are they balanced, how is the reaction to the leg, how is their mouth, what is the weaknesses. And at the end, I think I'm then a better breeder because I can decide better the kind of stallion I need to compensate the weaknesses of the mayors. So giving a sign to ride the mayors, I think the mayors should be shown under saddle. That should be changed right away. It's for me it's unacceptable. You cannot show a mayor under saddle because we are in the 21st century, we are not in the 19th century anymore. And mayors are to be ridden, not to be stuck in the field's just breeding. So also, they should be rewarded by being ridden because the breeders that are doing that are doing a financial effort that should be rewarded, not the other way around. So it's again, an idea, I hope the there should be an update in the way the association look at the mayors. I think it's a process, you cannot suddenly ride all the mayors but we should start somewhere. And here I'm trying to give the example by riding our mayors. There are other breeders like Fighedish, maybe the best horse they have bred in terms of a whoreness was Batuta but they have now one with Mariquetan that I really like. And other breeders are doing the same, not a lot. And I think again, the association needs to give the way they. I'm sorry you're talking about Olyndev. Olyndev, yeah. But the way the association rules also the passes signs to the market. So I don't know, give no words to the best mayor of the year. Yes, that would be really, really nice. I'm just giving ideas to the market should perceive, riding the mayors as crucial and driving the mayors because in Portugal typically a breeder has 50 mayors. Every mayor breeds. The demand and the level of demand for the mayors is any mayor can breed as long as I have a good stallion. For me at least is the opposite. You should have a really good mayor and the good mayors you can pick any stallion, the result is a good one. And that is proven scientifically. The mayor passes more than the stallion. So it's another idea. I hope can be at least started somewhere. I think it's a process but riding the mayors is absolutely crucial. Yeah, but I think I'm a foreigner. Of course, I'm not from Portugal. I really love the Lucitanos because for me, you know what you said about the warm bloods, then I feel really confident on the Lucitanos. I really like their energy and their heads and their characters. For me that's really nice. And I see that a lot of people from all over the world are asking me to come with me to Portugal to go on these, you know, the horse holidays. I do take them. Now I've got the lady with me from Australia to write the Lucitanos again. So the whole world is getting more aware of the Lucitanos. And sometimes I wonder a little bit if Portugal realizes that that is happening, that maybe more people want to come and people are asking for mayors and not just the stallions because a lot of places they don't want, they're not allowed. Like in Holland, there's a lot of yards they don't want the stallions there. So then or you have to gild them. If they're older, you will not do it. So it would be really, really good to do more with the mayors. Yeah. Yeah. No, definitely. In Portugal we still have this culture that every horse should be a stallion. And when we gild the horse, the first question, why? Was he crazy? Yes. No. And again, this shows a bit the mentality in my country that every horse should breed. And no, I think we need to be really demanding with the stallions, but as even more with the mayors. So I'm lucky enough to testify every week here in our place. I have even more requests for mayors than for stallions. There are countries when it's simply impossible to bring a stallion like Sweden. You can not, it's almost impossible to take a stallion to Sweden because 95% of the tables don't accept stallions. So there's a big opportunity. There's a big opportunity for mayors also. And I think you have written mayors. When you connect with the mayors, they give you 300%. So they have their days. But they can absolutely be competitive in sports. Look at the latter. Last Olympic champion twice. You have Beloros doing now miles on Transfristal with Catherine DeFour. So many mayors at top sports with different origins. And so for me it's very clear that maybe the special horse I will breed one day that will get into the medals. Why not be a man? We never know. So we cannot lose that. And the association should give a sign. Writing the mayors is the way as well. And I speak with some old fashioned breeders that I'm friend with a lot of breeders also from different from the way I breed. And I see the mentality still having the mayors doing their job which is to breed. And I think it's an old way of thinking and we should clearly change that mentality. Yeah, but you also, you just said about the creating of the horses, how they give the scores on the approvals. That also there were a lot of foreign people. I met people from Canada, our Belgian people from England. And so the word law foreigners interested in the approvals and also watching a lot of people line. So if you would, of course, already you set a few things. But if you would look at the future of the Lusitane, what do you think will happen or should happen? That's a good point. I have a lot of ideas. What in the perfect world? In the perfect world, I think we should walk towards the truth. Now also pointing out the controversial issue. You know our horses compete internationally in FBI competitions. What is happening in FBI competitions? you have doping rules. - Yes. - Okay, so your horses are tested. In the Luzitano, it's something I've been trying hard also in the association and everyone makes me shout, shut up my mouth. I really believe there should be doping tests in every style and approval in the association because I know unfortunately there is, let's say, I will say in a way I cannot harsh anyone. They are not 100% true, those greetings. Okay, so bringing doping tests to get a bit more honesty on what is being shown should be mandatory and just follow the FBI rules, okay? And if the breeder is no, that the horses they are taking might go under a doping test, maybe we will go towards a direction of a bit more truth, okay? So that is one thing I should really say, I know it's very controversial, but that's my opinion. And the same for all the events at the Luzitano Association organizes like the International Festival, that is for instance, one step where the PRE is far ahead of us. They test in there, I know for instance at C-Cub and the big event organized in Seville, any horse can go to a doping. So in a way, I'm almost sure and some have been caught in the past. What I'm saying is that everything should be done in a more transparent way. Because at the end, you can try to deceive the market once, but that lie will come up sooner or later, okay? And you know you can hide a lot of things in terms of temperament, in terms of discomfort. If you, if there are no doping tests. So I think everything should be a little bit more transparent and bringing doping tests would give us a bit more honesty, would bring a bit more honesty to the market. And also something that we should go a little bit more is again, every sign that the Luzitano should give is towards riding our horses, okay? So that mark for rideability is an idea. I'm not saying that suddenly we will start breeding warm bloods. No, we should stick to the clearly to the Luzitano identity that is different. But sticking to this identity doesn't mean we can innovate and we cannot give signs to improve rideability and to give the market. Because at the end, you know, everyone, what is really nice about breeding is that it's a democratic world. Anyone can breed the horse they feel. And maybe the horse you feel is the right one, is different than mine. But at the end, you will be evaluated with the horses you breed. In maybe five years, if you start breeding, if the market doesn't like the horses you breed, you will have a problem. So I think it's just the signs you pass to the market. And these gradings, they pass a sign that the points are everything. And I'm quite comfortable to tell you because I've had mayors. Like we, I think if I'm not wrong, we still have the record of the Champion Awards in the Luzitano Festival. We won three times, with K-Shoza, with Yaman, with Veshada, mayors, with 82, 84, 85 points. So I know what is having horses with a lot of points. But against me, sometimes those highly valued horses are not the best, are not the best, and their saddle horses. OK, so a stamp of the points is not a stamp of quality. OK, that's what the market should understand. And again, I'm not criticizing the breeders that base their criteria on points. And for instance, I give you an example, Escorial, that was in Tokyo Olympic Games. I think he's a horse with 80 points. And he brings incredible things to his progeny, incredible things. And he's a really, really good father. I think we need to be fair about that. But if I look at Escorial's sense, how many, I think, if I'm not wrong, close to 1,000 cents? Close to 1,000. How many of them are doing grumpy? Maybe I count with my fingers. And this is a fact. I'm not criticizing. I'm just bringing facts to the table. So I think the market should be a bit careful about going just towards the direction of beauty and the points, because for me, it would be very easy to just select based on points. And I had the mirrors with-- I think Veshada had 86 points, was the second highest mayor in the world. I think there was one in Spain with 87. But I had Veshada that was-- and Veshada was not the mayor that passed me most readability. Wasn't. We have Shikinya, for instance, that has 72 points from Kishot. So half-sister of Batuta. Everything that comes from her has a readability of 10. And for me, readability is the way. And my selection is clearly towards sports, and not towards the beauty and not towards the really morphological part. Again, just to finish. Those things are important, but we cannot give the points, the champion of champion title or the Champions League title, because they're not. And if we go towards that direction, I believe we're going to lose what makes the Luzitano special, which is their temperament, their character, their readability. And the market should understand that. Yes. I think you should go in the board of the APSL. That's not going to happen, at least in the next few years, because that's another issue. If one day that happens, I think a lot of changes within the association need to take place, because the way the organization is structured, in my opinion, is very old-fashioned. And I'm not saying that the people that are working there, they have a lot of passion. They work in a pro-bon way. So you need to understand the directors of the association. They're not paid to be there. No, they do it out of passion. They do out of passion. So hats off to them. I think the main challenge is to renew the governance of the association. And I know exactly the top stat books in the world, like KWPN, Oldenburg, and Averian, how they are organized. Is a different way than when they were founded. Because nowadays, the Luzitano is a worldwide icon. So back in 1980s, the Luzitano was bred in Portugal by some breeders, farmers, friends. So we're talking about a micro-business. Nowadays, the Luzitano is a worldwide business. There are horses everywhere in the world. So the association should be updated. There should be-- and this is a very clear vision for me. But this would require changes that need to be approved in a general assembly, complicated issues, not to be bring to the table at the moment. But I don't say no one day in the future. At the moment, I'm 100% focused in our project. But I think any change in the rules of the association should pass by a change of the governance to bring more transparency and to bring an update in the way the Luzitano is structured. So for instance, I give you an example, KWPN. They have a director for sports, a director for breeding, a director for the study book, a director for international countries for exports. Maybe this sounds a bit expensive. The Luzitano, as far as I know, their finances are very good. So they have no problems to restructure a bit the way the association is made. What is happening is that the decision-making process of the association is basically is based mostly in one or two people. When you decide alone, it's difficult to change. And I think in my opinion, there should be clearly a board of directors, of non-executive directors. And there should be a board of executives paid with salaries by all the partners, all the breeding programs of the association. And that should clearly report to the boards of non-executive directors. But at the moment, it's not the way it is. So it's not for me. I think it's something for the future to be renewed. But I think the problem is, in my opinion, the problem is not the people that are working there is the way the association is structured. So some old habits that will continue, unless there is a renovation of the governance structure of the Luzitano association. That is completely old fashioned. And this is my opinion. Until that change is done, you can change the names. The controversial will always be there, because basically the decision-making process is based on one or two persons. And that will always create controversy. Anyway, when we're talking about horses, you know there is always controversy. They're all-- always issues that bring a lot of passion also to the table. But this is very clear to me. Yeah, but I think how you explained it in between, like you said, a Luciciano Breed started with a small group of friends and people start reading maybe a little bit for fun with the Luciciano. And a lot did happen in the years. And also what I said, the world is going on. You were in Lisbon last weekend. There were breeders from Canada. I'm not a lot from other European countries. But now you have Luciciano's in Australia, New Zealand, South Africa. I'm reading yours in all these countries. I think Portugal has a double responsibility because we are still in charge of the Luciciano. So the APSL is the mother of all associations. But that doesn't mean we will dictate everything. We have to, in my opinion, the our associations should give the example in terms of communication, in terms of international relations. Everything should be legislated. And all the rules should be done here in Portugal. But I think we could do much more. I'm not saying the work we're doing here is a bad one. But I think we could be much far away, much better, much more advanced in the way. We tell the world what the Luciciano is. And at the end, we continue improving because the Luciciano is incredible. Our horse is capable of everything. And this horse doesn't stop surprising as all. At least to me, every time I get surprised, what the Luciciano can do. And again, it's the temperament. But I think the results we are achieving, they could even be better with a more structured organization with a governance of the association more updated to the times we live in. Yes, well, I agree with that a little bit. I mean, that's why it was also interesting for me to see last weekend what happened a little bit. But the you, of course, we're talking about the whole world. Catch the no more and more and more about the Luciciano. You travel a lot yourself. You are always around looking, making connections, looking for horses, meeting other breeders. What's your plans now the next year? In terms of our breeding program. Yeah, and you and you're traveling and everything. No, our vision is very clear is to continue. So Montvelu is now very solid in terms of we've been doing this business, the riding holiday business, for 12 years. What has turned our program special was really the, I think a number of factors, but at the end is again, the magic of the Luciciano. So my pressure is to keep the quality of our horses always at the highest level. So one thing is to get there, another thing is to stay there. So we really need to keep the quality at the highest level. It's more challenging nowadays because at the end, we made this introduction to the Luciciano 2,000s of riders in the last years. And the horses now they want to buy are the horses I also need here. So at the end, we can pit a bit with our clients. We can pit with our clients. But that's a challenge we have to live in. And I've been lucky enough to always find good solutions. But so that's a bit the DNA of Montvelu is to keep the quality of the Luciciano's. And we are, I cannot tell you, a lot of things. But we will continue innovating our program. We have some ideas of, starts new business units also around Montvelu. We recently started with a real estate unit as well. So we had a lot of requests from clients worldwide that came to Montvelu that wanted to stay here or to invest in our property. And we thought there was an opportunity also to start a little unit for real estate, which we started. It's at the moment it's an exclusive of the clients that visit as they get to know this project in Montvelu. And we have already two very close plots for horse owners. Yes. And yes, we have, in terms of competition, we're really proud to have João in the team. João now also has his own yard because that's at the end, that was also his dream. And we completely understood it. So João shares his yard with ours. And he has a group of horses here. So our vision is to continue doing what we're what we've managed so far, to try to be better. And if you ask me really in an honest way, what is my ultimate dream? And it's a dream because with horses, you can never set goals. I think it's more dreams is to get to the medals. I really believe one day-- maybe I will pass away one day completely frustrated. I believe there will be a lose itano from Montvelu. That will reach the medals in the Olympics. I don't say we will win the Olympics. But I've been there. I've seen with my eyes that it is possible to-- it will be really difficult, but it is possible. To one day, breathe a lose itano that will fight for the medals. And that's the ultimate dream. I don't know whether it will take 4, 8, 12, 20 years. I don't know. But that's the dream. And hopefully with the Portuguese rider, with João. We have also other horses with other riders. So it's impossible for me to keep all the horses here, because that's not possible. But I'm Portuguese. So that would be the ultimate dream. I hope when that medal comes, it is with João and not with the foreign rider. But if it's with the foreign rider, I think he will also understand. No, but then we should do not a podcast. The next time we'll be after winning a medal with one of your lose itano, it would be good. You have to dream. That's enough. Of course, you work on your goals and you're getting close. And you've been developing all the always. And talking about the medals, I've looking at the four last Olympic games. You had Valegro, twice Olympic champion, and you had Dallera, twice Olympic champion. Those horses were not the horses that when they were four or five years old, that you would put money, and you would bet on them to win the Olympics. Now even Zonic with Giustain would also not-- Very good example, Zonic now. Yeah, wouldn't be the horse that you would put the money in. And I know Zonic's story very close, because I've been in touch with Giustain. And Giustain has also mentioned several times to my team that Ecuador was an inspiration for him. The way we believed in João and we stick to the plan. And I have to say, I met some talks with Giustain, even before Zonic was known, no one knew Zonic. And he already believed that the horse will get to the point that he is now. But he really believed. I remember having dinner in Lisbon with him, and we were talking about another issue. And with other people, and he says, this horse will be known worldwide in two years. And he was just competing in precentage at the moment. So this to say that you see the pattern is a rider that has the passion that believes in its horse. Yes. And why did he say that? Because he said, this horse-- I can imagine this horse in two years, what he's giving to me. And so there was clearly the drive, the passion, and the rider that was refusing several offers for the horse already at that time. And compromising, maybe, his financial situation, because he believed that his horse would change his life. And he was right. And he didn't. And he was right. So really heads off to him, because these are the stories that I really admire. And I know because he was getting a lot of money offers from so many people, like big names, that really wanted the horse. And maybe nine out of 10 riders would have sold. But he said, no, because this horse is not for sale. And this horse will change my life. And he was completely right. So just to finish what I was saying, not always the best horses, like the horses that win the four year old and the five year olds, that are the flashy movers will get-- the Grand Prix is much more about rideability, about-- Grand Prix is again is a different grain. Where also the rider, I think, I used to say, in Fei young horses. Maybe the horse is 70% and the rider is 30%. In Grand Prix, I think the rider is on top of the horse. That's why you see mostly normally the same riders consistently there with different riders. So because it's the system, the rider that is being assessed is a bellvert. While it's always been in the last-- I don't know. Olympic Games or 9 Olympic Games or Carlisle? All nine Olympic Games because it's their system. That is proving successfully with different horses. Of course, to make a good omelet, you need good eggs. So you cannot just go there with the donkey, you will not win the Olympics. So you need a good horse, of course. And this to say, I need to make my job of breeding better horses every time. But I think we're not that far. We're not that far. We have Lucytanos that have outstanding potential to collect. I think we're also improving our system of building them. Because at the end, this is like a building. You need to build them. You don't believe that the horse is born to in grumpy. You need to pace a lot of patience. And very, very good management around. One of the things my team, like Kohali, is Juan tells me, "Dio, you, one thing you, I have a lot of bad things." And irritating things sometimes, I push them too much. But one thing they tell me is that I'm patient. Patient in the way, I never put pressure to compete. I prefer my horse getting the ring maybe one year later than sooner. Because I know this takes time. And if I put too much pressure in terms of going to the ring, I compromise the process. And Ecuador was a good example. He just started doing grumpy with 10. And he could have started earlier. So if there is also an advice I need to tell to my Portuguese friends, is we need to create a mentality for those that really want to compete in dressage and show their horses in sports this takes time. Don't put so much pressure on your riders. Because the basics are the foundations of any grumpy horse, the basics, that takes time. So if you put too much pressure, you will ruin the process. And I particularly feel the Luzitano in general can be very competitive in grumpy, but will never be an FEI young horse, competitive horse, never. That's for the KWPNs. Because you build world class movers for centuries. That's a bit in your DNA. But in the grumpy, it's not only about movements. It's about other things. About the character, about the sacrificed spirit. And this to say, I'm not saying that our horses should never compete in Hermelo or in Verden. Now, I think we should be aware that our horse will never be competitive there. Because they're not designed for that. And I think in the last decade, mostly there has been an inversion of the importance of these competitions. It became an industry itself for human sales. It's a short-term business. It's what it is, I think, for some stables. It's also easier to show results because it's faster. It takes a lot of time to get the horse to grumpy. It takes 10, 11 years. So in the way, a lot of things can happen. I believe the Luzitano has a word in grumpy, but will never be a horse, a special horse in FEI young horses. But that's by hope being in again. When is Maestro going to be seen in the Grand Prix? When will he take it? We have not decided exactly when, but it should be in the first semester. It will be in a. Like now, soon, somewhere this year. Zron has him completely solid at home. He hasn't been. He was a lot of people ask, but he was very competitive in recent ratchets. He was one of the few Luzitanos that scored more than 70%, which is really difficult for Luzitano because prison d'orchets mostly about movements. And he did 71, 70. So he was there. And for me, it was like a check. But my focus was grumpy. So Zron didn't do a lot of prison. I think he did two international competition in prison d'orch, because I could see the talent for him was the grumpy. And it took a bit of time to get there solid, because the horse is so big as you saw yesterday. But I think it's maybe two more months, three more months to get to the arena. And it's again, he will not start with 75. It's a process. But what I would love is when he gets there, that he shows that he's already easy for him to do that. That he's not doing it in a hurry. Should look easy with a lot of margin to improve, because that's how every horse gets there. You need margin then to improve. And Zron will have the time to improve the horse later on. But I would just like the first impression to be an easy one, where the horse feels comfortable doing the test. Yes, well, the ogu, it was very inspiring again. I mean, I can talk to you for another three hours. It's really, but you really do think out of the box. And I like that. And you think in a modern way, and you really, the way you explain things, it's, you'd maybe dare to say things. Other people will not say, but I appreciate that. And again, I also like to hear different opinions, because at the end, that's, we live in a democracy. But I have strong convictions. I know some, they are controversial sometimes, but they are my ideas. And I hope I can, with through my ideas, I can inspire someone. Exactly. Yeah, maybe you never know who will listen and what will happen. People should follow. If people want to know more about what happens, we'll draw in Maestro and your breeding plans. And if people are interested to come here on a holiday or maybe buy the-- see the horses, see the mayor, buy a new horse. So everyone can follow us through our social media, Equal Resorts, Instagram, Facebook. We have agencies also spread worldwide. They can call me. They, of course, can call you. And you will organize like you are doing now with this client. Yeah, we are quite easy to be reached. We have a big team. And yeah, I just hope we have the energy to continue doing this for a lot of time ahead. And for me, it's a pleasure to-- I used to say to the people that are coming here for the first time, either they are clients or they are staff. But every day here is different. Because sometimes we have a week with Australia, New Zealand, Americans, the following day is a group of Swedish, then Finnish. So every week here has a different story. But we connect a lot of Equestrian writers here. We have incredible stories of even people that knew here and got married here, following Montvelu journey. So yeah, I think we connect Montvelu is like-- I used to say United Nations for horse writers, because every week it's such a big mix of countries. But at the end, everyone shares the same passion for writing. So we're lucky to show the Luzitano to a lot of people for the first time. Yeah, well, actually, I experienced it now again, because there's a whole group here now. More and more, we have people that are not newcomers. That I think the best advertising we get is I think we have those stats 80% of our clients. They come back. So it's a big returning percentage. And of course, our pressure is when they come back, they come back with a higher expectation. So it's a pressure on me, on my team, to the liver. But that's a good pressure. I think living without pressure is boring. I love pressure. I love pressure. And because at the end, with pressure, you need to deliver. You need to make better. And to focus and to think outside the box. And you are really good at that. Well, thank you so much for your time. Flore, thank you very much. And hopefully, maybe in 10 years or 12 years, we can have the third interview with the medal. Now, not 12 years. Three years. We continue three years. I promise the medal. That was Olympic Games. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for listening. And until the next time, thank you, Diogo. Thank you, Flore. See you soon. [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING]