12 – The Harold: 2nd and 3rd Beats

[music] Welcome to Improv, beat by beat. I'm Curtis Rutherford. I interviewed 24 different improvisers and then edited together chunks of those interviews to investigate different aspects of Improv one piece at a time. This is episode 12, the Harold, second and third beats. [music] After the opening and then the first beats, we'll call them A1, B1 and C1, there's a group game as discussed in episode 10, group games, and then we're going to return to the same games as the first beats. So we had a game from that first beat scene, A1, and then we're going to return to it for second beat. We'll call it A2. And then we've got B2, that same game from the second first beat, and then C2, the same game from the third first beat. The goal for each second beat is to heighten the game of the previous beat. That may mean a time-dash second beat where we've moved forward in time and we get to see that same behavior play out again in some sort of heightened manner, or it may be analogous, where we play the same game, but with different specifics. The key for all second beats is to avoid doing just plot. Plot means events happening that don't accentuate the basic behavior that was fun in that first beat, or that change that behavior that was fun in the first beat. Second and third beats, like everything else in the Harold, take practice as Chris Scott explains. The people I coach are younger students who are like, "I want to work on second beats. I hate coaching second beats." It's like, I get it, I can go forth, but it's like, if you're not having good first scenes, I don't know. Yeah, so it's like, well, now we're just going to do scene work. Hate it. But it's like, go to Harold Knight or Lloyd. Watch first beats. While you're watching this first beats, think this is going to take away some of the fun of watching it, go like, "What is the game with that scene?" And what is the second beat you would do? And then compare it to the second beats they do. And go like, "Oh, they did a different game. They more they did the same game, but played in a very different way." Or whatever. That's probably the best way at least started to think about it. Yeah. Just getting in the wraps of thinking out. So your initiation to lease in your second beats. Yeah. Or coming off quickly, so you're struggling with that. That was Chris Scott. There aren't that many parts of the Harold that you can practice without actually doing the Harold. Initiating scenes, especially initiating second and third beats, is one of the big ones. Here's Liz Nooth. Which part of the Harold is your favorite? I really like thinking about second beats, especially like group ownership of second beats. So somebody else's beat, like imagining what sort of second beats I would initiate. I would say that's definitely my favorite part because it's the hardest. Yeah, for me personally. Why do you think it's the hardest? Because it's the middle. I think the middle of any project that I've worked on is the hardest. Like you're right in the middle of the process. You don't have to find an ending, but you have to build towards something. It's the most difficult part of the piece because you're progressing towards something and you're getting more specific, but you're also creating patterns. Yeah, I like thinking of it like a project like that. Because it is like, I mean so many times when we note Harold, it's kind of like, well, your first beats were good, but your second beats weren't good. And that's when the show got bad. Or it was like your first beats were okay. And then you guys pulled it out in the second beats. And they really are that kind of like pivot point of what makes a good or bad Harold often. Yeah, it's true. Especially, you know, when I started learning second beats, I felt like one of the goals was to be clever. I think like in my 201 class with Brandon Gardner, I just remember having a few like second beat moments or second beat ideas that I was like, that was clever and sort of rewarding myself for that. And then just along the way realizing that it's not about like the smartest move or the most like lofty, you know, analogous idea. It's about like, what are you building toward? So when you initiate a second beat, are you very much then thinking of like, this is what the whole show needs, that kind of thing, or is it? I think now I do think about that maybe not every time. So yeah, that's definitely in my mind when I try to think of a second beat initiation for people. Also, it feels good to have somebody else initiate your second beat. It just feels good. You feel so supported. The idea that like six people could have an idea for what that beat's going to look like. There's something really like comforting and lovely about that. Last week I was noting Judy Bigmouth's first show. And think Patrick or somebody brought up like, oh, you know, I feel weird initiating somebody else's second beat because what if I initiate it and then they don't get to play their game. And then so it was like, it was just like, stop wait. Okay, so can we just ask anybody here, would you mind if somebody else initiated your second beat? And like nobody might, like everybody wants that. Yeah. But we all have that same feeling of like, but I don't want to step on someone else's toes. Yes. And it's a weird like hesitation of like, I don't want to step on your toes if you had a great beat, but also please initiate my second beat. Right. Exactly. It's strange. I mean, that sort of instinct is also good to be like, oh, is everybody getting it? Like, I don't want to make sure I'm doing too much when somebody else is not getting to step out. Like, that's an important impulse to have. But yeah, it doesn't really like apply there. Like, when we see like those second beats with the exact same people, it feels, it doesn't even feel that much like a herald. And that's, you know, sometimes it does, but it feels like some sort of swapy tag, taggy outy game where it's just like interchangeable. Like pairs, you know, it doesn't feel like a as groupie as it could. So you said like initiating second beats, especially with like group ownership in mind. How does that change how you think about second beats or initiate them? I think a couple things first. I know that we've talked about this on teams we've been on together. The idea of other people supporting the unusual thing or even maybe playing the unusual philosophy in their own way. In the second beat, so more than one people having an unusual philosophy kind of blows things out. It just like widens the scope and it definitely like heightens the stakes of the game. So I think that just like kind of helps in terms of pacing, it helps in terms of like thematic ideas. Because then you're getting everybody just on that unusual thing and then it's not just on that one person to both make those game moves and connect it to something larger or to the next scene or whatever it is like that. Definitely. Yeah, the philosophy feels more real or it feels more important to the whole piece if you're sharing it with other people. And you don't always have to do that, but that feels really good. Also just, yeah, you don't feel so singled out when you're just playing an individual philosophy or an unusual character or a straight man. You don't feel as isolated as much like an island. It should be supportive. Yeah. Do you try to think of second beats for like everybody's first beat or do you like pick out a couple just to like have it already or is it just kind of like whatever comes comes? It depends on probably the show and the day and what. How good I feel. I try and practice to think of a second beat for every first beat. And it shows I try to get like at least one or two. I've found and shows if I only think of other people's and don't think of mine. Sometimes you're like shoot yourself in the foot because nobody thought of yours depending on the team that you're walking out with. But try to think of like a couple for sure or a third beat. Maybe save it for a third beat. Yeah. I felt like sometimes I feel like I'm just getting like lazy or in a lazier about making a first piece. And it's just become the kind of like nobody stepping out. I guess I'll step out and then realize like, oh, I had nothing. And I should probably like hold back longer because I think my my clock is too fast where it's like nobody stepping out for point one seconds and I got to get out there. But I would like I wish I still did more of that of the like actually like thinking of every single first beat or thinking of like several first beats. I wish I did more of what you do, which is like just get out there because that's a huge relief to the audience to when somebody's just like, okay, just have somebody step out. And like you know enough at this point to just make it work or remember what it is on your feet or be in the moment. I'm still absolutely way too in my head about thinking about beats and whatever. Thinking about the right move instead of just like get out there. Right. One thing I'm not just talking to everybody on this is it's kind of a constantly grass is always greener of like, oh, I wish I did this thing that somebody else did. I wish I did this. Yeah. Yes. That was Liz. And so that's what I'm talking about. I'm just talking about the first beat. I wish I did this thing. occasionally initiating their second beats. Also, if there was something missing in the first beat, justification, and base reality, whatever, something that stood in the way from that game being as fun to play as possible, you can often see that from the back line and initiate a second beat that addresses that so the group can play that game as hard and as honestly as they possibly can. Here's Kelsey Bailey. - I love second beats. Even if I have a real stanky first beat, I think I'm able to peel back the layers of it and see what in essence was this main premise and then able to do second beats that I think speak to it better or just are more fun. I don't allow like a first beat that might be bad to like sort of dictate the rest of my show like, "Mmm, ash, nah, I mean I'll do that later." Yeah, yeah. And at home like, "Why did I say that?" Oh, fuck! But like it's, I'm not gonna like stand on the back and be like, "Oh, fuck, I had a bad, I had a bad first beat." Look, Joey and Liz out there having a great first beat. I had a bad one. It's just kind of like, "Okay, well, and essence like what was this character?" And then I think in second beats. And I love group games too. Those are always so fun. Yeah. Anytime that I can have everybody be on board, it's so great. It's the absolute best. And so, do you find that you're stripping it away, stripping away that kind of element for the second beat? Are you looking at it more as like character? Or is it like something from the opening that you're pulling? Or is it like a little bit? If I'm doing a second beat that I was in, I sort of try and peel back the layers and be like, "Okay, what is this person's point of view or belief?" And I always sort of play with that more so than like situational. The situational doesn't always translate to a second beat unless you just recreate that specific situation. So I try and make it be like more, try and focus on like, "All right, what was this character's belief or want or point of view?" And then when you have that, you should be able to be like, "Oh, okay, it can translate more easily." And then so then how does that become then the initiation? Is it often just that or is it like, "Oh, now that I know that want, I'm going to put that one out." Now that I know it, it's kind of like, "Oh, now that I kind of know that little nugget, oh, I can take it here." Like, "Oh, I can have this character do this thing." It just like makes a little easier. Like, this is going to be a very specific example, but in our practice that we had, this is, you can edit this out. No one's going to care about the practice that we had. I did a scene with Nick Garcia where it was like, "I had to record everything because I was doing a lawsuit." And it was like a, what, it was a clunky first beat, but it was about someone who records everything because they need to make sure they do it right this time. Like, I have all my notes, I'm all set. The first scene was kind of just like us sitting in like a lawyer's office and it was kind of like whatever. And I think like back, I'm like, "Okay, well what does this person want?" They want to record everything so they can be a success in the future. So I had the second beat, me bringing a guy back and I'm narrating into a voice recorder, everything that's happening because I want to have like a sex calmer, I want to write an adult novel. And then like from there it's like, "Okay, what else are we recording with? We're doing a drone. Do we bug something?" We had a. Stenography. Stenography. So it's just sort of like peeling it back and like forgetting all the things of like, "Oh, but it was a lawsuit." What is she, it's like forget the excess and just like what's at the heart of it. Which very much is that kind of like UCB version of naming the game, it, devoid of proper nouns. That was Kelsey Bailey. People sometimes do perfunctory second beats because it's a herald and we're supposed to return to games to do second beats, etc. Treating second beats that way does a disservice to the herald. Second beats are your chance to make good first beats into great second beats. You get to distill exactly what was fun about the first beat and then just get right to that. As Kelsey said, don't let a bad first beat ruin the show. Find something about it that you loved and start with that. This is a very dumb way of putting it, but I like second beats that are louder and more emotionally committed than the first beats. That's maybe too dumb of a way of putting it, but it is basically what is fun about second beats. They should feel heightened. Double down on them. One last thing about second beats, which is timing. A first beat is going to be in general two and a half to three minutes long. Give or take. There isn't a lot of wiggle room there. Too much longer and your whole herald starts to grind to a halt. Too much shorter and you haven't really let your teammates have a chance to actually do their scene. Second beats are in general one to two minutes long, but with a second beat, if you're on the back line, you should be ready to edit as soon as it starts. Lean forward a bit on your toes. If there's an incredible line, three lines into a second beat, edit. Now, that's rare, but you should be ready to edit at any point because the edit point on second beats isn't always in that same nice spot as it is in first beats. And if second beats go too long, then all you're seeing start going too long and the herald starts to feel rusty and creaky and slow. You're no longer distilling previous scenes into a pure or form, you're just rehashing previous scenes. Third beats are even shorter. Also they don't always come in the same order as did the second beats. They may also start to connect games together. Here's Jesse Lee to talk about third beats. I'm very, I'm notoriously bad at third beats, I think. I never have an idea for third beats. I would say that I feel like I'm good at remembering what I thought was funny about things and what other people, I think the details of what might have been funny about something. I think I consider myself good at recognizing what other people are good at on the team and trying to find ways to set them up to do those things. As far as setting things up for other people on the team, so like, are you often very explicitly like, oh, you know what, I know Caroline's going to knock this out of the park type thing. Oh, yeah, totally. I mean, I've been playing with roommates for like over two years now. And I think everyone on that team has, there's like a strong comedic sensibility, like they have like a very strong comedic point of view. And it's very clear the types of things that they're good at and they make me laugh and practice like every week. So I always try to like find opportunities to do that in shows, set people up to make me laugh in a scene, right? Because that's, I think, how your team gets to be unique and have a voice is just because like, you know, that's what's unique about your group, right? It's like what are the unique points of view of people on the team you're with? That's what people kind of mean when they say like, fucking with each other, right? They kind of mean like, how are you kind of uniquely setting up this person in the situation to react a certain way, right? Yeah. Setting them up to succeed. Right. Yeah. Because it would be fun too, not because it would be a vehicle to watch. That was Jesse Lee. Third beats should be very fun. Jesse mentioned fucking with each other on his herald team, Mermaids. Third beats can move quickly. And so it's important that everyone is looking to jump on each game move as it comes up to really look to support each other up next is Chris Scott again. We were talking about his indie team. Thank you, robot and how they end sets, which then connects into learning good third beats. Well, you get the last five minutes. I think we are all looking for how can we bring things back? How can we connect this thing to that thing to that thing to that thing? And it drives me crazy if I'm working with a team. And I will give them the light. I'll say, you know, three minutes left, call things back. And nothing's coming back. Nothing's even if great sweep and start bringing back that will see even just a button. Even if it's take that one. Even if you come back to the exact moment you edited another scene of the guy eating the cupcake and just have him eat the cupcake. Great. Reminds me it's funny. I don't know if that was the style of the time. Because like when I hear now, we talk about that when we were learning third beats, it was a lot about connections. Yes. That's what I felt like was mainly about connections. It wasn't necessarily about playing a third beat of another beat of the second beat like you're carrying a third of during it. And I feel like I heard there is some of that now where it's more of like, do a third beat of scene one, a third beat of scene two and a third beat of scene three. And the ideal for both Lloyd and Harold is you do three either separate or connected beats, but you give like if you're connecting all three third beats, it's not ABC. It's A. We play A. We see how A connects to B. We play B. Oh and then maybe B connects to C then let's play C then. It's not like, oh, but A. I'm also a B. But we're both C's. Yeah. It's like, it's actually yeah, it's like if it doesn't fit. It doesn't fit. I agree. Like take it in the steps and so forth. But also I want to see those things connect it. Yeah. That group game, that first group game mentioned again. We're all going to forget that first group game. I want to see why I want to see why this is not just a series of scenes. Yeah. That we spread out. Yeah. I want to see why this is a set. Yeah. And especially at the time when we started when it was, we almost had the two sides of it of a thwond very organic like those were third beats that played together because their entire shows that together. Right. And the first off one show where like somebody fell back in a chair in one scene and by the time they landed, somebody like I think I dominant came out and connected it immediately to the second second beat. Right. And it was like that type of melding. Right. Like a dream like melding. And then 1985, it was like, oh, they always meant something thematically. Yes. The scenes always, it didn't have to be. Oh, A also knew B. It was A and B. Wow. Somehow we're connected. Right. It's all in Reese's head or whatever. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't. Yes. I don't know how much like I don't because I don't see teams hungry for that. Yeah. And like when a younger professor will see, thank you robot. They'll be surprised at it. And I think that's what I grew up on. That's what we grew up on. So I think that's where that style came from. Yeah. That was Chris Scott up next is Lugansolus. He's going to talk about his team. Agons. We also talk about his indie team, Manakin Room. I think my role in Agons is I'm good at tying stuff with Higgins at the end. I'm good. That's the role. I remember like when I first got on, I think like the first three or four shows I had the black outline because I was just tight. I would just tie it was just for whatever reason that team. Yeah. I was just like, oh, I see. Okay, I see the connect boom. Right. I'm going to do that. I think I'm pretty good at that with Higgins. - I think it's like, you know, tomato tomato sort of deal. - What do you think makes you good at that particular part? Do you think there's something like, was it some part of being on Manic in Room? 'Cause I mean, Chris talked a little bit about like, oh, especially doing indie shows, sometimes you just need to like hit that third beat. - I think, yeah, performing with Indie, like performing with the Manic in Room greatly influenced my ability to do that. It was mostly just picking it up from Chrissy. - Yeah. - Chrissy's so good at it. I just biased Moses. I learned it and then integrated it into my play. You know, the same way that like me and Brian's and Megan's and Caroline's character, and this led into Chris's play. And so, yeah, you have 15 minutes, really 13. And so you have like an internal clock, you know when it's gonna end and we want it to end satisfactorily. And so we would want, we would make connections and do that. I think also Harold, like, you know, just going through that, you get, that's the expectation is to do that. And even like writing, writing, you know, writing sketch helped me be good at that as well. I know, I can pick up on what the narrative of this is. I wanna find interesting ways to bring it together. - And so, with a third beat, is that generally what you're looking for? Like in a more in a narrative fashion than say just like a. - Sometimes with a third beat, sometimes it's visual. - Yeah. - Sometimes someone will set it up. Like Denny's really good at weaving things together. He's really good at organics and weaving together. And so I can see Denny set something up. And then I'll add to it. I think the whole team's good at that. - Yes. - And so an easy like picking up on it and then making the adjustment. - And when you say visual. So an example is in one scene, I had a beat in which I was worried about my son dealing with people who were unsavory. - Okay. - So that's essentially kind of the game of that scene. And in the first beat before that, I think the scene was about people fighting or like having a fight club. So I think in the second beat of that, it sort of like came to like a big crescendo. And I was like, oh, that looks like something I wanna want my son to see. So I immediately ran to the other side of the stage and started the scene while that scene's going on. And that was helped by the form the scramble. - Yeah. - For the form the scramble. Two scenes would be going on at the same time. And so that impacted my ability visually to have different scenes cohabitate. - Yeah. - And have scenes weave. Because you're improvising with weights when you do the scramble. And it made things much easier for me to see and click when I just visualize that all all these things are happening in the continuum. - Gotcha. - That all these scenes, you know, even though we swept at this scene, the scene is not stopping. The scene is still going. And that was, the scramble was a ASP that was from Arifu-Kidis. I think he learned that from Joe Bell. And so he taught that ASP and we took that to Chicago. Did it at the Chicago Improfaceable. So really great form. Hopefully there's another ASP. - Right. - And there's something also about then the fact that it does use this whole stage. I mean, especially when you guys as a herald team, because you spread out, I think it gives you guys room, or gave you guys room to do more of that of the very visual. Oh, you can set up a whole scene on the left while Denny's doing something to the right or something like that. We have players who are so strong at things that are not Toki Toki. - Yeah. - But like Denny and Vince alone are powerhouses in just organics and just presenting. I'm good at that. Molly's great at that. - With that third beat stuff. So what makes like, what do you like to see in a good, like either third beat connection or even like a standalone third beat? If you even think of third beats as standalone. - It really is a matter of, especially towards the end of Higgins' herald run, we were doing same world. Our focus was no rules just realm. We're going to play, we're going to do improv, we're going to have beats, but we're going to respect the world that we're in. And I think if you already come into that, with that mindset, it makes it easier for you to weave those ideas together. - Yeah. - But then it becomes solely your than weaving ideas because you're already in the same realm. So there's not the response of others' characters know each other whenever. - Yes, it's harder when they're desperate. For sure. And what you have to do is you have to think thematically. You have to think, okay, what is it about this scene that feels the same about the others? And for me, it's a matter of feeling and emotion. Like that's how I look at improv. So that's how I, I'm like, okay, what is the energy that I'm getting here? What is the energy that I'm getting here? And I just see where the similarities are. And then also, that's why specificity is good. Because you can drop stuff with specificity and make connections. You're not going to make connections if you're not being clear about what is in each scene. And I think sometimes it's people, connection suffer because we don't invest enough in the scene. You have more opportunities for connections when there is more specificity and there's a more clear idea of what each scene is. - Yes. - If we're just playing characters in no specifics, then it's hard to make connections. - Yeah, like, and so many of you guys as characters would have that where it wasn't just like, oh, this is the dad. It's the dad who also owns a beauty salon and plays chess every weekend. Or whatever it is. And they would always have very specific names. And some weird quirk that just made it easier to bring that right back. - I think with Hagen's and the mannequin room, we enjoy playing off each other. And so therefore, and also because we've been performing for that long, we want to mix it up. And so we'll mix it up with our specifics. And that even though it is a fuck around is actually something that is absolutely necessary and crucial. It's sort of something that's, it's so weird to be like thinking that something that is so important to just the foundation that you're just using as a throwaway fuck around. But it's true. And I think that's what makes it easier to do because you enjoy doing it. If you looked at it as a burden, like you do when you're a younger improviser, of course, it's gonna be tough. Of course, you're gonna stumble and stop because you're not, you're just not there yet. You're just not at the point in your life as an improviser where you're comfortable enough to just exist. - Yeah. - And it just, you know, takes time. - Yeah, 'cause it is, like you said, it's very weird to just go up there alone and then to both go up there where you know you're in front of other people and then to just, I'm going to exist. I'm going to be a full human being. We can't do that in real life. - Right. - It's so hard to, like for a lot of, especially comedians and performers, I mean, we're socially inept. And so to have that outlet, I think that's why they shine so much because it's sort of like an outlet to blossom in ways you need to as a human being. You just be, like as a person, you just need to be sometimes. And I think that's why people love improv so much because it gives them that outlet. And that's why they invest in it so much. And also they're getting positive reinforcement for doing so with the laughter. - That was Lugansolus. It's now to coincidence that both Lou and Chris talked about their indie teams. Being on a team that practices and performs regularly gets you better at knowing when and how to return to previous games and when to edit or support those moves when other people make them. Second and third beats are just as much owned by the entire group as our group games. A bad second beat belongs to the entire group. They could have walked on or tagged out or initiated with any number of things to help the people in the scene, but they didn't. So with second beats, the entire team should be thinking, how do we make this scene and this show as great as possible? That was episode 12, The Herald, Second and Third Beats. Watch Herald's and practice coming up with initiations for every beat. When you're doing a Herald, pocket an initiation for at least one other beat. Ask yourself what was fun about that first beat and show us more of that. Please rate and review the podcast and iTunes. And if you have any feedback for me, please send it to [email protected] that's C-U-R-T-I-S-R-E-T-H-E-R-F-O-R-D. Dotcom. Thanks to everyone who has already done so. And thanks to everyone who was part of this episode. I am Chris Scott. Liz Noth. Kelsey Bailey. Hi, I'm Jesse Lee. Logan Zahalaz. And I'm Curtis Reatherford. [MUSIC PLAYING]